All the people who say somaliland must forget the past watch this

[STARKAST]

jalaaludin5,

Reer hargeisa like to peddle this exclusive clan genocide narrative that wishes to evoke sympathy for their independence struggle. When in fact the last government fought every clan, which they like to forget. Its a pity that people want to argue at which clan got targeted more from the last goverment, because thats the conversation Somalis can't really agree on.................... - Pathetic

All Somalis should accept that clan crimes and state crimes were committed on all sides. The last 27 years have been a dark period.

Somalis should learn to move on and rebuild their lives and country.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

^ I agree Starkast.

[Xildiiid]

Morgan and his militia controlled Kismaayo from 1993 until 1999 before he was ousted by the JVA. Does that mean the regime controlled Kismaayo until 1999 or that he was a defense minister all this time?

Truly a bizarre chain of thought..

The regime was officially toppled in January 26, 1991 and it's only contested by you because it doesn't suit your narrative. There was no regime after January 26 - 1991, only tribal militias fighting for control i.e civil war.

I never stated that I blame innocent civilians in Somalia so don't put words in my mouth.

We will play hardball with Somalia and as I told you before, Somalia does not have a monopoly on Somali identity. Criticizing Somalia does not mean criticizing Somalis, opposing Somalia does not mean that I'm opposing Somalis (ethnic group) etc.

Indeed, the regime targetted Isaaq more because the regime had a formal policy called 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa' reported by the HRW with the intention of systematic persecution and extirmination. Such policy did not existed for the Hawiye clan or any other Somali clan. The only cities to be destroyed by aerial bombardments and heavy artillery were Isaaq cities and with all the non Isaaq residents in those cities evacuated by the regime.

So no, the regime did not target Isaaq and the rest of Somalis equally

[Geeljire252]

The state did commit genocide against Isaq. For you to dress it up as nothing more than crashing rebels and disobedience is disingenuous to say the least.

I understand about the need to move on but in order to heal and move those crimes have to be acknowledged.. So what if there were other crimes committed by the kacaan? What has one genocide got to do with another crime committed somewhere else by the same perpetrators?

Personally I do not like to dwell in the past and i hold no ill will towards any particular clan but to downplay genocide is downright blasphemy.

While we go around in circles, you denying genocide, and me going on about what happened to me yesterday, the filthy xabashi is laughing his head off as he stroke his groin getting a hard on by our bickering.

Xabashi ba kuligeen madaxa inagaga kaaja, inaguna inagi ba isku maqan oo indhaheenu nin kale oo soomaali ah mooye wax kale ba ma arkaan.

Nacala SINJIYADA SOOMAALI ee IBLIS ku abtirsada ku yaal.
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Jalaaludin,
Let's me correct you.

I've heard the word "genocide" being thrown around especially by our brothers from the north.
I think most of you don't know the meaning of genocide.
Genocide is the mass slaughter of people because of their ethnicity or religion. Examples include the Tutsis in Rwanda and the Jews in the Holocaust.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a genocide to occur in Somalia. It never has nor will it ever occur.
this is because we share the same ethnicity, same culture (Somali culture), are all the same religion (Sunni Muslims). We even share the same language. Explain to me how you can perpetrator a genocide against your own people?

Yes, Kacaan was a filthy regime that desecrated the people from the south to the north. The people it was supposed to serve but to accuse it of genocide, is plain wrong. Find another term maybe "clan cleansing".

[Geeljire252]

Morgan and his militia controlled Kismaayo from 1993 until 1999 before he was ousted by the JVA. Does that mean the regime controlled Kismaayo until 1999 or that he was a defense minister all this time?

Truly a bizarre chain of thought..

The regime was officially toppled in January 26, 1991 and it's only contested by you because it doesn't suit your narrative. There was no regime after January 26 - 1991, only tribal militias fighting for control i.e civil war.

I never stated that I blame innocent civilians in Somalia so don't put words in my mouth.

We will play hardball with Somalia and as I told you before, Somalia does not have a monopoly on Somali identity. Criticizing Somalia does not mean criticizing Somalis, opposing Somalia does not mean that I'm opposing Somalis (ethnic group) etc.

Indeed, the regime targetted Isaaq more because the regime had a formal policy called 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa' reported by the HRW with the intention of systematic persecution and extirmination. Such policy did not existed for the Hawiye clan or any other Somali clan. The only cities to be destroyed by aerial bombardments and heavy artillery were Isaaq cities and with all the non Isaaq residents in those cities evacuated by the regime.

So no, the regime did not target Isaaq and the rest of Somalis equally

It was the bakthi Belgian UNOSOM troops that helped Morgan recapture the city. They disarmed the legitimate USC/SPM government and gave arms to Morgan in order to "balance the playing field". How bullshit is that?
To make things worse when we tried to immediately recapture the city they used naval forces against us. Morgan had 33 of the most powerful nations in the world fighting with him.


The regime didn't "cease to exist" on the 01/26/1991. Even Hargeisa had not been capture yet. The regime had only been chased out of Xamar and central Somalia. Most of the south was still in their hands even Afgoye was controlled by them. Twice they tried to recapture Mogadishu and were crushed by USC lions

The regime "ceased to exist" in April 1992 when USC chased Morgan's militia, remants of the army and Siad barre (AUN) into exile. until 1992 Morgan was minister in the regime.


Somalia = 100% Somali
Going to "war" with Somalia means going to war with Somalis.
The regime is gone, so if you want to "play hard ball" and "seek revenge" it'll be against other innocent Somalis because the regime is long gone. You are blaming the innocent Somalis of today for what the regime did a long time ago.


Therefore you are cutting off your somali identity and culture if you intend to war with your people. You intend to inflict the same "genocide" you are crying about today on other Somalis. How is that fair?
And then you ask why we are not giving you "independence". Why should we if you are going to repeat what happened?



If you think Isaaq suffered bad. Just know repressions against Somalis (mainly Hawiye) in south central Somalia started in 1974. 14 years you lived in peace, while we were getting oppressed by the regime.

[Xildiiid]

According to the UN.

Following the downfall of President Siad Barre in 1991, a civil war broke out in Somalia between the faction supporting Interim President Ali Mahdi Mohamed and that supporting General Mohamed Farah Aidid.

You're the only one contesting this fact because it doesn't suit your baseless argument.

Somalia is not 100% Somali, according the CIA, 15% of Somalias population are not ethnic Somalis i.e the Bantu, Arabs, Baravanese etc.

Somaliland on the other hand is 100% Somali.

We will play hardball with Somalia and the paper government based in Mogadishu. No, Somalia does not have a monopoly on Somali identity. I'm Somali from Somaliland and we don't share culture.

Somalia can't grant anyone independence and juridically it's impossible because Somaliland was never part of Somalia.

Nonsense, the people who lost their farms to the resettlement program of 1974 were Raxanweyn, Gosha and Mushungli. Those injusticies can't be compared to the State Terrorism the people of SL were subjected to from 1978-1989.

[jalaaludin5]

jalaaludin5,

Reer hargeisa like to peddle this exclusive clan genocide narrative that wishes to evoke sympathy for their independence struggle. When in fact the last government fought every clan, which they like to forget. Its a pity that people want to argue at which clan got targeted more from the last goverment, because thats the conversation Somalis can't really agree on.................... - Pathetic

All Somalis should accept that clan crimes and state crimes were committed on all sides. The last 27 years have been a dark period.

Somalis should learn to move on and rebuild their lives and country.

This is exactly what I was talking about. You say, 'reer hargeisa lik to peddle this for recognition', I say, 'all Daarood celebrate the bombing of hargeysa'.

From all corners of Somaliland, there are those that wish to never revise the crimes of the last regime. If you saw that documentary. ...Kill all but the crow,....you will see families protesting against exhumations of their loved ones. People have moved on from the past but if you want to use couple of knuckle heads on the net or unscrupulous politicians and those that like to cash in on the crimes of ..DAAROOD... then yes, you have a point.

You are right when you say lots of clans suffered in the hand of the last regime but you cannot use that as an excuse to dismiss the savagery of your late uncle.

As far as accepting and moving on goes, you are in no position to tell people we should move on from the crimes of your uncle.
-
-
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[jalaaludin5]

The state did commit genocide against Isaq. For you to dress it up as nothing more than crashing rebels and disobedience is disingenuous to say the least.

I understand about the need to move on but in order to heal and move those crimes have to be acknowledged.. So what if there were other crimes committed by the kacaan? What has one genocide got to do with another crime committed somewhere else by the same perpetrators?

Personally I do not like to dwell in the past and i hold no ill will towards any particular clan but to downplay genocide is downright blasphemy.

While we go around in circles, you denying genocide, and me going on about what happened to me yesterday, the filthy xabashi is laughing his head off as he stroke his groin getting a hard on by our bickering.

Xabashi ba kuligeen madaxa inagaga kaaja, inaguna inagi ba isku maqan oo indhaheenu nin kale oo soomaali ah mooye wax kale ba ma arkaan.

Nacala SINJIYADA SOOMAALI ee IBLIS ku abtirsada ku yaal.
-
-
-

Jalaaludin,
Let's me correct you.

I've heard the word "genocide" being thrown around especially by our brothers from the north.
I think most of you don't know the meaning of genocide.
Genocide is the mass slaughter of people because of their ethnicity or religion. Examples include the Tutsis in Rwanda and the Jews in the Holocaust.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a genocide to occur in Somalia. It never has nor will it ever occur.
this is because we share the same ethnicity, same culture (Somali culture), are all the same religion (Sunni Muslims). We even share the same language. Explain to me how you can perpetrator a genocide against your own people?

Yes, Kacaan was a filthy regime that desecrated the people from the south to the north. The people it was supposed to serve but to accuse it of genocide, is plain wrong. Find another term maybe "clan cleansing".

How? By using the full force of the state. That's how genocide is committed.

We do share ethnicity culture and religion which is why don't like to get into this type of discussion. Especially what happened in 2006 and the invasion of Ethiopia. I find it silly to keel going on about the kacaan when the South has burning for nearly 30 years. Ethiopia and African union killing and raping with impunity while our own Somali leaders and elders race to sell their services to foreign forces.

Every clan suffered but it shouldn't be contest. Nor should one man's suffering be used to dismiss another one's pain healing process.
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-
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[Geeljire252]

According to the UN.

Following the downfall of President Siad Barre in 1991, a civil war broke out in Somalia between the faction supporting Interim President Ali Mahdi Mohamed and that supporting General Mohamed Farah Aidid.

You're the only one contesting this fact because it doesn't suit your baseless argument.

Somalia is not 100% Somali, according the CIA, 15% of Somalias population are not ethnic Somalis i.e the Bantu, Arabs, Baravanese etc.

Somaliland on the other hand is 100% Somali.

We will play hardball with Somalia and the paper government based in Mogadishu. No, Somalia does not have a monopoly on Somali identity. I'm Somali from Somaliland and we don't share the same culture.

Somalia can't grant anyone independence and juridically it's impossible because Somaliland was never part of Somalia.

Nonsense, the people who lost their farms to the resettlement program of 1974 were Raxanweyn, Gosha and Mushungli. Those injusticies can't be compared to the State Terrorism the people of SL were subjected to from 1978-1989.

Smh you are blaming a region for what a brutal regime did. May allah guide you.
You are truly weak and emotional people. The regime killed family members of mine, looted my business in Kismaayo, do you see me blaming Xamar or other Somalis?
This is a prime example of what I mean why I say "you are that are Cuqdad ridden people".
No one apart from you blames Mogadishu, Somalia or other Somalis for what Kacaan did. The people of Galgaduud, Mudug, Nugaal, Bari, Hiiraan, Bay, bakool, Gedo, Middle and lower Shabelle and Jubboyinka who also faced the brunt of the same regime do not blame other Somalis or Mogadishu. It's only you that is hate filled and have Cuqdad for other Somalis to the point you claim we don't have the same culture what's next you are Christian like "walaalaheen Itoobiya"?

May Allah help you.



@ - "we don't share the same culture"


Are you Xabashi then?
Do you eat raw meat in Hargeisa aswell?



"1978-1989"

Massacres against you started 1988.
Repressions against us started from the beginning of the illegal takeover. This was because unlike you we were against the illegal takeover from the start, that's why many of our intellectuals were tortured in secret prisons across the country, slaughtered in secret locations or forced into exile (e.g. Cabdullahi cisse, Caydid and many more).
We were barred from university education because one sixiroole once told Afweyne that "Hawiye would takeover the country". The regime looted our businesses, property, farms and money from the start when it took over.
The large scale looting of our farms began in 1974 in places in Jubboyinka and Lower Shabelle like Dujuma, Jilib, Qoryooley and many other places which are 100% Hawiye. Many Isaaq were brought into the south during that time which shows they didn't see you as a threat.

We were first massacred in Beledweyne, Bulobarde, Jowhar, Qoryooley and many more places in 1978 when we refused the large scale, government sponsored looting of our farms for the resettlement of refugees. 10 years you were dancing around in peace in Hargeisa while other Somalis were being massacred.
In 1982, there was a blockade of food in Mudug and Galgaduud. The wells were destroyed, leading to the death of livestock and countless innocent civilians due to starvation and drought.
Was there every a blockade in the north?
No you were allowed to flee to other parts of Somalis,Djibouti and Ethiopia.

How can you suffer more when you only fought half of the 26th sector (the majority was in the south and centre and other defected)?

The truth is people in south and central faced the brunt of the army. We fought 21st, 54th, 60th and 77th military sectors and parts of the 26th sector. To top thing off we had a mad defence minister, backed by 33 of the most powerful nations in the world, who was still fighting hard after we chased afweyne out the capital.
But this is not about who suffered more, it's about moving on forgiving and forgetting and reconciling instead of blaming innocent Somalis.

You are so Cuqdad ridden you deny Hawiye and other Somalis suffered.

[Xildiiid]

This is not fadhi ku dirir so stop making it a fdk session.


1. We will play hardball with Somalia, not because of the atrocities committed by Afweyne, but because she claims Somaliland and she has sabotaged every attempt or policy made by SL this far.

2. We don't share the same culture. Everything from xeer, to traditional food, to cultural dances, outlook on life etc. is different.

3. Yes, the atrocities committed in SL started in 1978 with the execution of Isaaq officers after the war and the extrajudicial killings of peaceful protestors, most of them being students, followed by the WSLF targetting Isaaq nomads which lead to the formation of 'Afraad'. 1988 is when things culminated and the government increased its efforts to systematically extirminate Isaaq because there was uncertainty regarding US military Aid.

Using military strikes against civilian targets

The Somali military used artillery and aerial bombardment in heavily populated areas in order to retake Burao and Hargeisa, although there were no SNM combatants there.

U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), SOMALIA: Observations Regarding the Northern Conflict and Resulting Conditions.

-Under the Geneva convention these types of attacks are indiscriminate and Afweyne, under international law, was obliged to protect civilian lives but he didn't because his goal was to wipe out Isaaq civilians not save them as you can see in the quotation above. Not 1 Hawiye city or tuulo was subjected to the same brutality however I do not deny that Hawiye and many other Somalis were targetted by the regime. Nonetheless, what happened in SL was state terrorism.

Another example of State terrorism that didn't occur anywhere else..

The government used loudspeakers to sort the civilians out into Darood and Isaak. They would shout, ''Who's is from Galkayo? Mogadishu? Las Anod, Garoe?''[Non-Isaak territory]. They appealed to the non-Isaaks to leave so they could burn the town and all those who remained behind. Most of the people from these towns left; the government provided them with transportation.

Human Right Watch - A government at war with its own people.

Economic sanctions and the policy of 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa'.

Isaak businessmen, both in the north and in the south, suffered from discriminatory practices. Lines of credit at state banks were severely restricted, which was a major blow to businessmen as there are no private banks in Somalia. No Isaak could participate on equal footing in government tenders. Isaak businessmen could not obtain loans from banks, unless this was facilitated by a non-Isaak crony of the authority.

Isaaks in Mogadishu were also at a severe disadvantage. She describe the example of Hashi Afboor, who tried to obtain money from his bank account in Mogadishu in 1986. He was told he could withdraw the amount he requested on condition that he gave four non-Isaak men the money with which to start business.

The government had at its disposal, a formidable array of extra-legal sanctions that it used to wage a more subtle kind of political warfare. A system known as ''Isaak Extermination'' (''Dabar Goynta Isaaka'') was put into effect.

-Such policy did not exist for the Hawiye, Raxanweyn etc.

A confidential report from General Morgan to President Barre leaked to the international press in February 1987 detalied the policies that Morgan had been implementing to ''liquadate'' what he referred to as the ''Isaak problem'' and which he was recommending to the president. Te measures spelled out in the letter included confiscating the property of Isaaks and redistributing their wealth; suspending their business licences; freezing the bank accounts of Isaak businessmen and destroying their businesses by giving opportunities to non-Isaaks; purging Isaaks from all sensitive government positions; accelerating the enrollment of the children of the refugees into local schools in order to ensure a ''balance''; relocating villages, destroying water reservoirs and resettling Ethiopian refugees on Isaak territory.

Human Right Watch - A government at war with its own people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everything I stated in previous posts I could present the sources and the quotations. However you're regurgitating your own ideas and presenting them as facts and then you always end by saying 'we should all move on and reconcile' lol. Not one of the quotes you posted before mentions any of the military divisions you mentioned above and then you proceed by denying the fact that the 26th divisions was based in SL.

Morgan was not a defense minister in 1992 or 1993. The regime was toppled in 1991 and after that it ceased to exist. If we apply your standard of logic, Morgan and the regime were in control of Kismaayo until 1999 when he was ousted by the JVA.

You don't make sense..

I'm not the one who suffers from cuqdad because I don't deny facts even if it's against my clan.

[Geeljire252]

This is not fadhi ku dirir so stop making it a fdk session.


1. We will play hardball with Somalia, not because of the atrocities committed by Afweyne, but because she claims Somaliland and she has sabotaged every attempt or policy made by SL this far.

2. We don't share the same culture. Everything from xeer, to traditional food, to cultural dances, outlook on life etc. is different.

3. Yes, the atrocities committed in SL started in 1978 with the execution of Isaaq officers after the war and the extrajudicial killings of peaceful protestors, most of them being students, followed by the WSLF targetting Isaaq nomads which lead to the formation of 'Afraad'. 1988 is when things culminated and the government increased its efforts to systematically extirminate Isaaq because there was uncertainty regarding US military Aid.

Using military strikes against civilian targets

The Somali military used artillery and aerial bombardment in heavily populated areas in order to retake Burao and Hargeisa, although there were no SNM combatants there.

U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), SOMALIA: Observations Regarding the Northern Conflict and Resulting Conditions.

-Under the Geneva convention these types of attacks are indiscriminate and Afweyne, under international law, was obliged to protect civilian lives but he didn't because his goal was to wipe out Isaaq civilians not save them as you can see in the quotation above. Not 1 Hawiye city or tuulo was subjected to the same brutality however I do not deny that Hawiye and many other Somalis were targetted by the regime. Nonetheless, what happened in SL was state terrorism.

Another example of State terrorism that didn't occur anywhere else..

The government used loudspeakers to sort the civilians out into Darood and Isaak. They would shout, ''Who's is from Galkayo? Mogadishu? Las Anod, Garoe?''[Non-Isaak territory]. They appealed to the non-Isaaks to leave so they could burn the town and all those who remained behind. Most of the people from these towns left; the government provided them with transportation.

Human Right Watch - A government at war with its own people.

Economic sanctions and the policy of 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa'.

Isaak businessmen, both in the north and in the south, suffered from discriminatory practices. Lines of credit at state banks were severely restricted, which was a major blow to businessmen as there are no private banks in Somalia. No Isaak could participate on equal footing in government tenders. Isaak businessmen could not obtain loans from banks, unless this was facilitated by a non-Isaak crony of the authority.

Isaaks in Mogadishu were also at a severe disadvantage. She describe the example of Hashi Afboor, who tried to obtain money from his bank account in Mogadishu in 1986. He was told he could withdraw the amount he requested on condition that he gave four non-Isaak men the money with which to start business.

The government had at its disposal, a formidable array of extra-legal sanctions that it used to wage a more subtle kind of political warfare. A system known as ''Isaak Extermination'' (''Dabar Goynta Isaaka'') was put into effect.

-Such policy did not exist for the Hawiye, Raxanweyn etc.

A confidential report from General Morgan to President Barre leaked to the international press in February 1987 detalied the policies that Morgan had been implementing to ''liquadate'' what he referred to as the ''Isaak problem'' and which he was recommending to the president. Te measures spelled out in the letter included confiscating the property of Isaaks and redistributing their wealth; suspending their business licences; freezing the bank accounts of Isaak businessmen and destroying their businesses by giving opportunities to non-Isaaks; purging Isaaks from all sensitive government positions; accelerating the enrollment of the children of the refugees into local schools in order to ensure a ''balance''; relocating villages, destroying water reservoirs and resettling Ethiopian refugees on Isaak territory.

Human Right Watch - A government at war with its own people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everything I stated in previous posts I could present the sources and the quotations. However you're regurgitating your own ideas and presenting them as facts and then you always end by saying 'we should all move on and reconcile' lol. Not one of the quotes you posted before mentions any of the military divisions you mentioned above and then you proceed by denying the fact that the 26th divisions was based in SL.

Morgan was not a defense minister in 1992 or 1993. The regime was toppled in 1991 and after that it ceased to exist. If we apply your standard of logic, Morgan and the regime were in control of Kismaayo until 1999 when he was ousted by the JVA.

You don't make sense..

I'm not the one who suffers from cuqdad because I don't deny facts even if it's against my clan.

1) your whole nation is built on "waa nala xasuuqay". The reason you are not independent is because "you want revenge" and to repeat what happened again. Your "independence" doesn't not bother us southerns, nor do we care about you. Your not that special join Djibouti if you like, we don't care that's one less worry gone from us. The main reason we wanted you to join is because of Somalinimo. We wanted to make 1 Somali nation (Somaliweyn) in the horn which unites all Somalis. But since you are a emotional bitches that claim we don't have the same culture as you because of what a dictatorial and tyrannical regime did to you, do as you please but keep the south and "revenge taking" out your mouth. Then you will get so much longed "independence", until then you will remain in the unrecognised limbo you have been in for 26 years. Nobody can force independence, Sudan granted South Sudan independence after UN sponsored talks with each other. We can live as deris and walaalo only if we come together, "forgive and forget" and decide our future collectively as Somalis.

2) Are you not somali?
Are the Somalis in Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia and the rest of the world not the same as you?
This is what I mean cutting off your people and culture.
Next you'll start saying we aren't the same religion as the south for "independence". Wallahi the lengths you go for "independence" astounds me.

3) The article you are quoting states the war against Isaaq started in 1988.

War broke out on May 27th when SNM attacked Burco, one of the main towns in the north.

Page 19

your own sources backs up my point even more and state attrocities were happening in Mudug and Hiiran from 1978. 10 years before the war on you.




Your "main" source also contradicts its self.
One time "Dabargoynta Isaaqa" was a policy, one time it was a division in the military.


Come on the article was written from Isaaq diaspora in Cardiff, Liverpool and Sheffield who were not even in the country in 1989. How are they supposed to know what was going in the country if they weren't there in the first place?


Let me correct you on another point.
Morgan took over Kismaayo in December 1993 after being resupplied by the Kenyan military and with the help of UNOSOM trash.

Morgan's soldiers were allowed into Kismayo. Some Harti believe that UNOSOM allowed Morgan to re-enter Kismayo, because 'they view it as a Harti town'.
Since 1993 US and Belgian troops repulsed USC/SNA offensives to recapture the city.
UNOSOM Belgian troops were outwitted by Morgan.

UNOSOM were against anything USC related.


Also after the departure of UNOSOM, no one really controlled Kismaayo. USC/SNA nor Morgan had military presence in the city. Morgan preyed on civilians and displaced people in camps in Dhobleey. He feared going to Kismaayo and the north part of Jubboyinka. The fact is his "Darood" confederation of SNF, SSDF, SPM (Harti) didn't hold much ground in Jubboyinka. The only places he held ground in was Gedo , Baardheere, Afmadow, Liboi and Bu'aale. In 1999 ASF (which renamed to JVA) chased Morgan out of Somalia for the second time after he tried to declare Jubaland independent and add it to Puntland.

http://www.nzdl.org/gsdlmod?e=d-00000-0 ... 1edf2.6.fc

Nonetheless , this is about the regime. If you want to talk about Kismaayo, start a new thread I'll gladly explain my city to you.

The regime was still alive in 1992, Siad Barre(AUN) was still in the country, twice his forces commanded by Morgan tried to recapture and reinstall the regime in Mogadishu. How can a regime "cease to exist" and still hold Hargeisa try to recapture the capital twice?


@ "Hawiye didn't suffer state terrorism unlike the north"

Stop looking for excuses and denying the reality.
Are these following actions not state terrorism?
- Exiling, imprisoning , executing Hawiye and southern intellectuals?
- removing all Hawiye from the government they created and replacing them with MOD?
- Torturing Hawiye and southern intellectuals in secret across the country?
- looting Hawiye and southern farms, property, land and businesses?
- denying Hawiye to be university educated?
- the mass slaughter of Hawiye civilians in Hiiran, middle Shabelle,Galgaduud, Mudug, Banadir, lower Shabelle and Jubboyinka?
- destroying and poisoning the wells in Hawiye regions like Mudug and Galgaduud?
- mass slaughter of livestock owned by Hawiye nomads?
- indiscriminately burning Hawiye farms and crops?
-opening fire on peaceful protesters in Mogadishu?
- using the brute military force ( 21st, 54th, 60th and 77th military sectors, more than 80% of the army) of the against civilians in places like Jazeera, Dhoobley, CeelBarde, Mogadishu Stadium, Gowlalo, Dagaari, Sadle-Higlo, Bandiir Adley, Galinsor, Wargalo, Do'ol, Hilmo, Go'ondalay, Galkayo, Beledweyne and many more place in the south and centre of the country?

Subsequently, government troops undertook massive reprisals against civilians living in the regions of the 54th, 21st, 60th and 77th military sectors. The towns and villages affected include Dagaari, Sadle-Higlo, Bandiir Adley, Galinsor, Wargalo, Do'ol, Gowlalo, Halimo, Go'ondalay and Galkayo town which is the regional capital of Mudug.

Yet you say I'm the one that "doesn't make sense " and is "denying facts".
You are truly one delusional and ignorant diaspora kid.

[Xildiiid]

Ad hominems aside..

1. No, that's one of the many lies created with the intention of smearing Somaliland. The quest to recreate Somaliland and the quest to regain her long lost sovereignty was born in 1961 after the illegal parliamentary elections, when my people realized that the people of Somalia were not sincere about Somali nationalism, that they used Somali nationalism to annex Somaliland. It culminated in the failed coup and that was 8 years before Afweyne even came to power.

Secondly, you're either unable or unwilling to understand that Somalia is the one still claiming Somaliland after annexing it. It is Somalia that's sabotaging every attempt or policy made by SL. We're not blaming the paper government in Mogadishu for the atrocities committed by Afweyne even though the same paper government wanted Cali Samatar acquitted and to be granted diplomatic immunity. We will play hardball with Somalia because she's the main obstacle and she will pay for the sabotage. It's that simple.

2. I'm Somali but still we don't share culture. Somali (ethnic group) and culture are two separate things. As I told you before, our xeer, traditional food, cultural dances, outlook on life is completely different.

3. The quote says 'war broke out when the SNM attacked..', meaning that the war between the belligerents (SNM & SNA) officially started in 1988. Now, if you put things into context you would understand that it was the same year Afweyne signed a peace agreement with Mengistu disclaiming 'Somali Galbeed' for the expulsion of SNM and that forced the SNM to take the war to the SNA inside the republic.

4. The second quote states 'a bitter foretaste of what was in store for the Isaaks, Ogaden and Hawiye'. It was not talking about Hawiye being targetted but MJ by the regime as a collective punishment for the actions of the SDF and later on the SSDF.

5. 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa' was a policy but there was also a well mechanized paramilitary group within the army carrying out the policy of extrajudicial killings, mass rapes, destruction of wells & reservoirs, displacing the local population etc. There's nothing contradictory about that quote.

Yes, the sister of award winning journalist Rage Omar, Ruqiya Omar together with other human rights advocates wrote the report and it was based on eye witness accounts from refugees in Ethiopia, Djibouti and Europe but also foreign NGO's based in the region. An example is the murder of 103 Isaaq nomads in one day in Sanaag witnessed by an Australian NGO because two soldiers from the SNA got killed by one of the SNA's landmines.

6. I don't care about who backed Morgan or not. You claim that he was a defense minister in 1992 when the regime was toppled and officially ceased to exist yet you contest the idea of Morgan being a defense minister in 1999 before he was ousted from Kismaayo. You can't have the cake and eat it at the same time. After the regime was toppled, the battle was between different militias for state control and that is defined by the UN as a civil war.

7.It seems that you don't understand your own source. The quote indicates that the USC captured equipments from the 4th division and the government collectively punished the civilians in the towns mention. The reprisal took place in the regions of those military division as the source states but wether those military divisions attacked and killed civilians is not disclosed. You can't chose and neglect information based on your agenda. You also claimed in previous pages that those military divisions used heavy artillery against Hawiye towns and cities but again that information is not disclosed in your own sources which means you made it up.

8. I don't deny that Hawiye and other Somalis suffered at the hands of the regime. They were collectively punished but they weren't subjected to State Terrorism like the people of Somaliland. There was never a formal policy of extirminating Hawiye nor other Somali clans living in the republic, only Isaaq..

[Geeljire252]

Ad hominems aside..

1. No, that's one of the many lies created with the intention of smearing Somaliland. The quest to recreate Somaliland and the quest to regain her long lost sovereignty was born in 1961 after the illegal parliamentary elections, when my people realized that the people of Somalia were not sincere about Somali nationalism, that they used Somali nationalism to annex Somaliland. It culminated in the failed coup and that was 8 years before Afweyne even came to power.

Secondly, you're either unable or unwilling to understand that Somalia is the one still claiming Somaliland after annexing it. It is Somalia that's sabotaging every attempt or policy made by SL. We're not blaming the paper government in Mogadishu for the atrocities committed by Afweyne even though the same paper government wanted Cali Samatar acquitted and to be granted diplomatic immunity. We will play hardball with Somalia because she's the main obstacle and she will pay for the sabotage. It's that simple.

2. I'm Somali but still we don't share culture. Somali (ethnic group) and culture are two separate things. As I told you before, our xeer, traditional food, cultural dances, outlook on life is completely different.

3. The quote says 'war broke out when the SNM attacked..', meaning that the war between the belligerents (SNM & SNA) officially started in 1988. Now, if you put things into context you would understand that it was the same year Afweyne signed a peace agreement with Mengistu disclaiming 'Somali Galbeed' for the expulsion of SNM and that forced the SNM to take the war to the SNA inside the republic.

4. The second quote states 'a bitter foretaste of what was in store for the Isaaks, Ogaden and Hawiye'. It was not talking about Hawiye being targetted but MJ by the regime as a collective punishment for the actions of the SDF and later on the SSDF.

5. 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa' was a policy but there was also a well mechanized paramilitary group within the army carrying out the policy of extrajudicial killings, mass rapes, destruction of wells & reservoirs, displacing the local population etc. There's nothing contradictory about that quote.

Yes, the sister of award winning journalist Rage Omar, Ruqiya Omar together with other human rights advocates wrote the report and it was based on eye witness accounts from refugees in Ethiopia, Djibouti and Europe but also foreign NGO's based in the region. An example is the murder of 103 Isaaq nomads in one day in Sanaag witnessed by an Australian NGO because two soldiers from the SNA got killed by one of the SNA's landmines.

6. I don't care about who backed Morgan or not. You claim that he was a defense minister in 1992 when the regime was toppled and officially ceased to exist yet you contest the idea of Morgan being a defense minister in 1999 before he was ousted from Kismaayo. You can't have the cake and eat it at the same time. After the regime was toppled, the battle was between different militias for state control and that is defined by the UN as a civil war.

7.It seems that you don't understand your own source. The quote indicates that the USC captured equipments from the 4th division and the government collectively punished the civilians in the towns mention. The reprisal took place in the regions of those military division as the source states but wether those military divisions attacked and killed civilians is not disclosed. You can't chose and neglect information based on your agenda. You also claimed in previous pages that those military divisions used heavy artillery against Hawiye towns and cities but again that information is not disclosed in your own sources which means you made it up.

8. I don't deny that Hawiye and other Somalis suffered at the hands of the regime. They were collectively punished but they weren't subjected to State Terrorism like the people of Somaliland. There was never a formal policy of extirminating Hawiye nor other Somali clans living in the republic, only Isaaq..

1) your nation is built on "waa nala xasuuqay". If not why do you have a large statue of a mig in the centre of Hargeisa?

Why weren't you against the regime in the first place like us?

Loool "play hard ball" against who?
Hawiye?
Darood?
Other Somalis?


2) we don't share culture kulaha
Do you eat raw meat sida "walaalaheen Itoobiya"

Expand what you mean we don't share the same culture.

3) the war the Kacaan regime lead against Ethiopia ended in 1978. The regime signed a peace treaty with Ethiopia, the Soviet Union, Cuba and the communist alliance. What would make Ethiopia harbour SNM for 10 years ( 1978-1988) but suddenly kick them out?
It doesn't make sense. If the peace deal was to allow Siad barre to "exterminate" SNM why didn't Ethiopia expel SNM in 1978?

4) it says attrocities were happening in Hiiraan and Mudug in 1978. Both are Hawiye regions. Hiiraan is 100% Hawiye. Majority of Mudug is Hawiye (from Gaalkacyo to Dinowda, in the north east, is exclusively Sacad). Destroying the wells especially after drought would cause 1000's of deaths. Mudug is also one of the largest regions in Somalia, attrocities in both these areas caused thousands of Hawiye and Majeerteen and other Somalis to die (AUN). After the SSDF made a deal with the regime, the war continued against Hawiye and the other Somalis.
Also how is it different if 50,000 die from wells being poisoned by the regime or if 50,000 are killed in regime airstrikes?
Why is your life more valuable?

5) a government policy and a sector in the military are poles apart. To say they are the same is like saying a president is the same as a street cleaner. Was "Dhabargoynta Isaaq" a policy or a unit in the military?
You can't be both.

6) yes you are right. The regime "ceased to exist" in 1992 not when it was chased out of Xamar but when it was chased from the entire country. So up until 1992 the dying regime was still fighting so Morgan was still defence minister.
Look at your stupidity just because the regime military were kicked out of Xamar they became militia?

7) "whether the military killed civilians is not disclosed"
Come denying the facts placed infront of you, that's a new low.

Subsequently, government troops undertook massive reprisals against civilians living in the regions of the 54th, 21st, 60th and 77th military sectors. The towns and villages affected include Dagaari, Sadle-Higlo, Bandiir Adley, Galinsor, Wargalo, Do'ol, Gowlalo, Halimo, Go'ondalay and Galkayo town which is the regional capital of Mudug.

8) I've proved numerous times to you we suffered the same if not more as you people in the north. You are like debating with a brick wall.
Are the following not examples of "state terrorism"?
a) Exiling, imprisoning , executing Hawiye and southern intellectuals?
b) removing all Hawiye from the government they created and replacing them with MOD?
c) Torturing Hawiye and southern intellectuals in secret across the country?
d) looting Hawiye and southern farms, property, land and businesses?
e) denying Hawiye to be university educated?
f) the mass slaughter of Hawiye civilians in Hiiran, middle Shabelle,Galgaduud, Mudug, Banadir, lower Shabelle and Jubboyinka?
g) destroying and poisoning the wells in Hawiye regions like Mudug and Galgaduud?
h) mass slaughter of livestock owned by Hawiye nomads?
i) indiscriminately burning Hawiye farms and crops?
j) opening fire on peaceful protesters in Mogadishu?
k) using the brute military force ( 21st, 54th, 60th and 77th military sectors, more than 80% of the army) of the against civilians in places like Jazeera, Dhoobley, CeelBarde, Mogadishu Stadium, Gowlalo, Dagaari, Sadle-Higlo, Bandiir Adley, Galinsor, Wargalo, Do'ol, Hilmo, Go'ondalay, Galkayo, Beledweyne and many more place in the south and centre of the country?


Siad barre did try to "exterminate" us just like with you. Siad barre launched "exterminating campaigns" against Hawiye. Is this not state sponsored terrorism?

Hawiye underwent one of the most vicious attrocities during his reign

Get over your self, you are the same as the rest of Somalis that were massacred!
We have moved on and don't blame each other.

[Xildiiid]

You're projecting your own ideas as facts which ludicrous.

1. Somaliland is based on the idea of recreating the sovereign country we lost in the 60's because of the naiveness of our grandfathers who fell for the fake Somaliweyn nonsense. When they realized their mistake it was late.

Recreating SL has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by Afweyne. I pointed out to you specifically the failed coup of 1961 when officers from SL tried to regain the control of their country and reclaim the independence of their country.

The MiG is there so that my people don't forget the stupidity of our grandfathers which lead to our destruction.


2. As I told you before, our xeer, traditional food, cultural dances, outlook on life is completely different from yours so no we don't share culture. There's no such thing as a 'generic Somali culture'.

3. SNM was created in 1981. Afweyne did not sign a peace deal with the communist bloc after the war. The first time he met with Mengistu after the war was in 1988. Afweyne disclaimed 'Somali Galbeed' and in return Mengistu would expel the SNM from Ethiopian territory. That forced the SNM to take the war to the SNA inside the republic and as the quote states, that's when the war officially started between the two belligerents (SNM & SNA). War should not be confused with the State Terrorism the civilians were subjected to.

4. The second quote states 'a bitter foretaste of what was in store for the Isaaks, Ogaden and Hawiye'. It was not about Hawiye being targetted because the source would specifically state that.

You can't prove that 50.000 died by poisoned wells, it's also illogical but we have proof that 50.000 died from airstrikes.

5. As I told you before, 'Dabargoynta Isaaqa' was a policy but it was also a well mechanized paramilitary group within the army carrying out the policy. There's nothing contradictory about that quote.

6. The regime ceased to exist when it was toppled because it didn't function anywhere in the country. So no, he was not a defense minister in 1992, it's impossible because there wasn't a central authority.

7. It says government troops took part in the reprisal but it doesn't state if those specific military division partook in the reprisal, only that the civilians who were affected lived in the regions where these division were stationed. So the argument that civilians fought these military divisions is false because nowhere in the source is it disclosed. You also claimed that these military division shelled Hawiye cities with heavy artillery, again it's not disclosed by the source you posted. You made it up and injected it in your argument.

8. Yes, Hawiye suffered at the hands of the regime. It was collective punishment, not state policy with the intention of extirminating Hawiye. It's that simple. Hawiye businessmen, students, teachers etc. in other parts of the country weren't abducted and subjected to extrajudicial killings like their Isaaq counterparts were. Hawiye towns and cities were not shelled with heavy artillery and aerial bombardments like Hargeisa, Burco, Arapsiyo, Kalsheikh etc.

[smartyt]

Okay darod inslaved both issaq and hawiyie lool