gedo_gurl wrote:Yungfresh...The misunderstanding was that, you made a post trying to convince me, using the Quran.. that the Sunnah is waajib in understanding the Quran. I do not dispute that at all, Im merely saying that hadiths which contradict or add laws to the Quran are challenging the fact that if Allah wanted to add "and then stone them to death if..." then he would have done so. To use a hadith to add to the Quran something which was not ordained therein is itself an act of defiance against Allah. Clarifying that which is already stated, and adding to that which has been made clear are two different things.
The Ayah is clearly stating that one cannot say "I see that this is what is in the diin, but I wont follow it because I dont want to..or I choose not to". It is like me saying that I dont want to pray, or I want to eat pork because thats what my ancestors did, or that I will show my cawra to my cousins because they are like my brothers etc...unless you understand it in another way. This is very different to arguing against an order which has been omitted from the Quran...which is the same as saying that Allah forgot so we need to ask these people to add it. The Quran is the principle guide, the hadith are the example of how to follow it.
With regards to independant thought, I agree that there is room for human error in my thoughts, but with this topic in particular, there is an order from Allah saying one thing, and hadiths saying something else...It is not very difficult to come to a conclusion about that considering the fact that Allah swt clearly states that he has mentioned everything in his book...Are we to ignore the Ayah and follow the scholars? I will 100% go back on this and change my mind if you bring an Ayah explaining that hadith can override what has been said in the Quran.
I see what you mean now and why you felt I misquoted you...but I think you misunderstood my intentions for posting those particular ayats. The point I was trying to drive home with those ayats wasn't necessarily that the the Sunnah is waajib in understanding the Qur'an, but that Allah SWT Tells us repeatedly to obey Him AND His Messenger. Allah SWT Taught us the basic principles of Islam in the Qur'an by revealing it to the Messenger SAW, and He also Taught us our religion by expounding on those basic principles through the example of the Prophet SAW. Therefore, the Shariica is derived from those two sources: the Qur'an and Sunnah. If the Prophet SAW was sent as an emissary from Allah SWT to teach us the religion and he did not speak/act of his own accord in matters concerning the religion, aren't BOTH the Qur'an and Hadith ultimately from Allah SWT? Why are we restricting the legitimacy of establishing rulings to only the Qur'an, if the Sahih Ahadith are also inspired by Allah SWT? This is His Religion and He is the one who Protects it, whether we're talking about the Qur'an or the Sahih Ahadith which explain our religion to us in detail. As for any perceived discrepancy between the two, it's possible that one abrogates the other. For example, as we know, khamri was xalaal at one point during the Messenger's Prophethood SAW. A verse later came down forbidding it. Now, this can be seen as a contradiction, as khamri was allowed and not allowed during the 23 years the Qur'an was actively being revealed, but it was actually an Abrogation by Allah SWT. Why then can Allah SWT not Abrogate a ruling in the Qur'an by using a Sahih Hadith, which is still from Him to His Messenger? No one is arguing that Allah SWT couldn't have just included the ruling for stoning in the Qur'an Himself had He Chosen to, but is He not within His Right in His Divine Wisdom to Choose to instead use the Hadith to communicate that ruling to us, since Hadith is one of the two sources for Shariica? When you say "To use a hadith to add to the Quran something which was not ordained therein is itself an act of defiance against Allah", it's as if we hold true that the Qur'an is the only manner in which Allah SWT was able to Communicate information to us, when we know the Ahadith were also instrumental in His Communications to us through the Prophet SAW.
As for Allah SWT Clearly mentioning in the Qur'an that The Qur'an Explains all things, I agree. One of those things is
"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger" (An-Nisaa' 4:59) and another is
"Whatever the Messenger giveth you, take it, and whatever he forbiddeth, abstain from it" (Al-Hashr 59:7). Meaning, He Explained to us that we must consult the Prophet to understand this religion. The Prophet SAW left us his Sunnah in order for us to do that, which was transcribed in the Sahih Hadiths. The Messenger SAW practiced stoning and so did the Sahaba RA, which is found in those Sahih Hadiths. For anyone to say they don't believe in the Sahih Ahadith that state this is very shaky grounds, because then they're implying that the religion is imperfect since much of it was related to us through these very same Sahih Ahadiths which they are casting doubt upon. If Allah's SWT Religion is Perfect and much of it is recorded in the Ahadith of the Prophet SAW, then doesn't that mean the Ahadith must be factually perfect as well? Otherwise, how can something be perfect if it was related to us imperfectly?
Finally, stoning is part and parcel of our Shariica Law. That is an unassailable truth. Now, one can argue that they don't
agree with the decision for it to be part of the Shariica (which then is a statement of Kufr...not to make Takfir on anyone, which I'm definitely not in any position to do, but it's indisputable that rejecting a part of the Shariica is a statement of Kufr as you're making xaraam what Allah SWT Has Made xalaal....which doesn't necessarily make someone a kafir, but is still a kalima from Kufr Al-Akbar), however, we cannot argue that it is part of the Shariica and has always been in practice. You seem like a rational, fair-minded person...doesn't it bother you at all that none of the Khaliifas questioned stoning, nor did the eminent classical scholars of Islam, nor did any of the modern reputable scholars? I understand your position appeals to your intellect, but our intellect is not always in line with Allah SWT's Divine Intellect, so we can't use that as a litmus test when deciding what to follow from the Ahadith. Individuals who have studied longer than either of us have been alive are the ones who are qualified to make these assertions of what is the correct understanding, and they do so only after undertaking the arduous task of sifting through all relevant information and evidences...and none of them have refuted the permissibility of stoning. Surely that must hold weight.
