The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

[Bilis]

Not quite. Wars with Abyssinia were comparatively recent events and had nothing to do with change in genetic composition of the populations. You are insinuating that the V-32 clade was predominant in the region, but that is not true. The population then, as now, were predominantly the same clans, hence same genetic markers, Hap T. It had less to do with bottleneck, and more to do (perhaps) with founder effect. I would believe your hypothesis if Futuh al-Habash occurred 5,000 years ago, not 500 years ago. In molecular evolution that is how long it takes for mutation to happen.

Timeline:
Haplgroup T is a rare and fairly young haplogroup, about 16K to 20K years old. Its origins were in the Levant. Back migrated to Africa and settled with E1b1b1 in southern Egypt/northern Sudan. Both drifted downward and finally settled in the Horn region, with Hap T getting to the Somali peninsula first about 2K years ago.

You misunderstand sxb. What I suggested was that haplogroup T, alongside E1b1b-V32, was already present among Somalis prior to the medieval Futuh. I was just hypothesizing that the Futuh may have somehow skewed those original T frequencies; possibly through a population bottleneck. I based this mainly on the fact that haplogroup T appears to reach a frequency peak today in the former Adal Sultanate area.

However, given the significant presence of both haplogroups E1b1b-V32 and T in the southern Egypt/northern Sudan area today, I agree that a founder effect from an ancestral migration from that area is more likely.

Why do you think that haplogroup T is not found between Southern Egypt and Northern Somalia in any significant numbers?

I ask this question because I am puzzled by how Somali T haplogroup carriers have a recent common ancestor going back 2000 or so years. This point towards a relatively recent founder effect among T Somalis. I am aware that with new technological advents in genetics, the TMCRA could be subject to change. However, it cannot be ruled out that the concentration of haplogroup T among certain Somalis could also be the result of overseas migration as it is a very young lineage in contrast to the surrounding cushitic E1b1b markers.

I guess a better picture will be obtained once a comparison has been made with the Egyptian T carriers.

True walaal, haplogroup T is found at significant frequencies in the Northeast Africa corridor. A founder effect indeed makes sense since the autosomal ancestry of T-carrying Somalis is essentially the same as that of E1b1b-carrying Somalis.

Do you know what are the specific T haplotypes in the Somali territories? Are they closer to the Egyptian haplotypes or to the ones in Southern Arabia?

[Itrah]

Then how would you explain how haplogroups E1b1b-V32 and T came to be dominant among modern Somalis, whereas A3b and J1 are virtually non-existent?

Not even the Sab carry A3b and J1, and they are more archaic a population than mainstream Somalis. They do, however, apparently carry haplogroup T.

J1 is actually found in ''regular'' Somalis, even the Garre who live in the far South have documented cases of J1. It's just at a very low level.
A3b is even rarer, but often still found.

Considering that Somali mtDNA is similar to Ethiopian groups, it's quite logical to assume that the Y profile used to be similar as them before the population bottleneck.

[Bilis]

J1 is actually found in ''regular'' Somalis, even the Garre who live in the far South have documented cases of J1. It's just at a very low level.
A3b is even rarer, but often still found.

Considering that Somali mtDNA is similar to Ethiopian groups, it's quite logical to assume that the Y profile used to be similar as them before the population bottleneck.

Somali DNA in general is similar to that of other Afro-Asiatic groups in Ethiopia, but not identical. For one thing, we have more private alleles than any other Afro-Asiatic population in Northeast Africa. We also have some genetic peculiarities not found elsewhere. For example, ethnic Somalis have a moderate frequency of a particular variant of the Ectodysplasin A receptor gene that is mainly found in populations in Asia to the east of the Iranian plateau. This allele is virtually absent elsewhere in Africa, including the north.

That said, A3b is found at trace levels among Somalis, as is haplogroup R. Since A3b is also apparently infrequent in the southern Egypt area (unlike R, which some Berbers in the Siwa Oasis have), J1 seems a more likely companion lineage to E1b1b and T.

[zumaale]

Not quite. Wars with Abyssinia were comparatively recent events and had nothing to do with change in genetic composition of the populations. You are insinuating that the V-32 clade was predominant in the region, but that is not true. The population then, as now, were predominantly the same clans, hence same genetic markers, Hap T. It had less to do with bottleneck, and more to do (perhaps) with founder effect. I would believe your hypothesis if Futuh al-Habash occurred 5,000 years ago, not 500 years ago. In molecular evolution that is how long it takes for mutation to happen.

Timeline:
Haplgroup T is a rare and fairly young haplogroup, about 16K to 20K years old. Its origins were in the Levant. Back migrated to Africa and settled with E1b1b1 in southern Egypt/northern Sudan. Both drifted downward and finally settled in the Horn region, with Hap T getting to the Somali peninsula first about 2K years ago.

You misunderstand sxb. What I suggested was that haplogroup T, alongside E1b1b-V32, was already present among Somalis prior to the medieval Futuh. I was just hypothesizing that the Futuh may have somehow skewed those original T frequencies; possibly through a population bottleneck. I based this mainly on the fact that haplogroup T appears to reach a frequency peak today in the former Adal Sultanate area.

However, given the significant presence of both haplogroups E1b1b-V32 and T in the southern Egypt/northern Sudan area today, I agree that a founder effect from an ancestral migration from that area is more likely.

Why do you think that haplogroup T is not found between Southern Egypt and Northern Somalia in any significant numbers?

I ask this question because I am puzzled by how Somali T haplogroup carriers have a recent common ancestor going back 2000 or so years. This point towards a relatively recent founder effect among T Somalis. I am aware that with new technological advents in genetics, the TMCRA could be subject to change. However, it cannot be ruled out that the concentration of haplogroup T among certain Somalis could also be the result of overseas migration as it is a very young lineage in contrast to the surrounding cushitic E1b1b markers.

I guess a better picture will be obtained once a comparison has been made with the Egyptian T carriers.

True walaal, haplogroup T is found at significant frequencies in the Northeast Africa corridor. A founder effect indeed makes sense since the autosomal ancestry of T-carrying Somalis is essentially the same as that of E1b1b-carrying Somalis.

Do you know what are the specific T haplotypes in the Somali territories? Are they closer to the Egyptian haplotypes or to the ones in Southern Arabia?

In order to prove or disprove the theories around the origins of haplogroup T among Somalis, one would need to make a comparison between the various T haplogroup that are in existence in North Africa and the Mid East. The 2011 Mendez study on haplogroup T did not explore the relationship between Somali haplogroup T's obtained by Hallenberg and those from other parts of the world. Hence, there is not much material out there from which one can hazard a hypothesis. They did use Ethiopian T haplogroup data in the Menez study but there is no way of knowing whether the samples were obtained from the Somali region.

Furthermore, if the T haplogroup that is found among Lembas is closely linked to a Turkish T haplotype then anything is possible. Who is to say that the haplotype that Somali T haplogroup carriers belong to is mainly found in Southern Arabia rather than Egypt. I am leaning more on the Egyptian origin theory. However, what baffles me is that Somali T haplogroup carriers hypothetically descended from one ancestor two millenniums ago. That founder effect could easily be the result of a sole migrant as there are no neighbouring populations with a high percentage of T haplogroup carriers.

[gurey25]

IT should be called Waaqiya

[Bilis]

In order to prove or disprove the theories around the origins of haplogroup T among Somalis, one would need to make a comparison between the various T haplogroup that are in existence in North Africa and the Mid East. The 2011 Mendez study on haplogroup T did not explore the relationship between Somali haplogroup T's obtained by Hallenberg and those from other parts of the world. Hence, there is not much material out there from which one can hazard a hypothesis. They did use Ethiopian T haplogroup data in the Menez study but there is no way of knowing whether the samples were obtained from the Somali region.

Furthermore, if the T haplogroup that is found among Lembas is closely linked to a Turkish T haplotype then anything is possible. Who is to say that the haplotype that Somali T haplogroup carriers belong to is mainly found in Southern Arabia rather than Egypt. I am leaning more on the Egyptian origin theory. However, what baffles me is that Somali T haplogroup carriers hypothetically descended from one ancestor two millenniums ago. That founder effect could easily be the result of a sole migrant as there are no neighbouring populations with a high percentage of T haplogroup carriers.

FamilyTreeDNA happens to have a Somali individual in its Haplogroup T Project. Although this is just one person's haplotype, it at least provides us with a rough idea of what sort of haplotype is perhaps dominant among Somali T clade bearers.

The kit belonged to the L208 (T1a1a) subclade of haplogroup T. This sublineage is today most common in the Arabian peninsula. Of the 27 haplogroup T-L208 carrying individuals in the Project, 6 were from Saudi Arabia (22%); this area also had the greatest variety of T subclades. The two Ethiopian T clade bearers (assuming they aren't ethnic Somalis) belonged instead to the M70 subclade. One of the four Egyptian T clade bearers belonged to L208. That sublineage therefore also has a presence in the Nile Valley, albeit at a lower frequency than in the Arabian peninsula.

From this, it appears that haplogroup T is an old Arabian lineage that made its way to Northeast Africa at some point in antiquity. Its L208 subclade could have reached present-day Somali territory either directly via Southern Arabia or indirectly with early Afro-Asiatic-speaking settlers from the Nile Valley.

[zumaale]

In order to prove or disprove the theories around the origins of haplogroup T among Somalis, one would need to make a comparison between the various T haplogroup that are in existence in North Africa and the Mid East. The 2011 Mendez study on haplogroup T did not explore the relationship between Somali haplogroup T's obtained by Hallenberg and those from other parts of the world. Hence, there is not much material out there from which one can hazard a hypothesis. They did use Ethiopian T haplogroup data in the Menez study but there is no way of knowing whether the samples were obtained from the Somali region.

Furthermore, if the T haplogroup that is found among Lembas is closely linked to a Turkish T haplotype then anything is possible. Who is to say that the haplotype that Somali T haplogroup carriers belong to is mainly found in Southern Arabia rather than Egypt. I am leaning more on the Egyptian origin theory. However, what baffles me is that Somali T haplogroup carriers hypothetically descended from one ancestor two millenniums ago. That founder effect could easily be the result of a sole migrant as there are no neighbouring populations with a high percentage of T haplogroup carriers.

FamilyTreeDNA happens to have a Somali individual in its Haplogroup T Project. Although this is just one person's haplotype, it at least provides us with a rough idea of what sort of haplotype is perhaps dominant among Somali T clade bearers.

The kit belonged to the L208 (T1a1a) subclade of haplogroup T. This sublineage is today most common in the Arabian peninsula. Of the 27 haplogroup T-L208 carrying individuals in the Project, 6 were from Saudi Arabia (22%); this area also had the greatest variety of T subclades. The two Ethiopian T clade bearers (assuming they aren't ethnic Somalis) belonged instead to the M70 subclade. One of the four Egyptian T clade bearers belonged to L208. That sublineage therefore also has a presence in the Nile Valley, albeit at a lower frequency than in the Arabian peninsula.

From this, it appears that haplogroup T is an old Arabian lineage that made its way to Northeast Africa at some point in antiquity. Its L208 subclade could have reached present-day Somali territory either directly via Southern Arabia or indirectly with early Afro-Asiatic-speaking settlers from the Nile Valley.

Bilis

L-208 is a subclade of T-M70. It is found as far afield as Europe and is not a distinctive Middle Eastern marker. It is also well represented among Egyptian T haplogroup carriers.

In order to determine how closely related Somali L-208 carriers are to other populations, an extensive Y chromosome scan would need to be conducted.

[samaalenoble]

That's a terrible and devious explanation and example, of a population bottleneck event. A 14 year war don't cause a bottleneck event moron. The indigenous Somali populations that carry haplogroup T were simply drastically reduced.

At least you got the current SNP methodology problem correct.

Tell your buddy there not to damage any UNESCO world heritage sites in his lifetime. Eid Mubarak.

Haplogroup T (formerly known as haplogroup K2-M70) is today mainly found among ethnic Somalis and other Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa. I take it, then, that you subscribe to Luis et al. (2004)'s theory that the haplogroup T carriers on the continent were originally more widespread, but were later overwhelmed by groups carrying other haplogroups?

”The current patchy distribution of K2-M70 in Africa may be a remnant of a more widespread occupation. Subsequent demic events introducing chromosomes carrying the E3b-M35, E3a-M2, G-M201, and J-12f2 haplogroups may have overwhelmed the K2-M70 representatives in some areas. Like the R1*-M173 males, the M70 individuals could represent the relics of an early back migration to Africa from Asia, since these chromosomes are not associated with the G-M201, J-12f2, and R1-M173 derivatives, lineages that represent more-recent Eurasian genetic contributions (Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001b). The K2-M70 expansion estimates in Egypt (17.5–13.7 ky; see table 3) are consistent with an early African diaspora. From the present-day African distribution of K2-M70, it is difficult to determine which of the two Africa/Asia migratory passages, if any, prevailed in its southward journey. However, the BATWING expansion estimates of both the Egyptian and Turkish K2-M70 lineages (13.7 ky and 9.0 ky, respectively) are much older than that of Oman (1.6 ky), which suggests that the Levantine corridor may have been used more extensively in the African dissemination of this lineage as well.”

It is certainly an interesting argument. I actually don't rule it out entirely.

Like E1b1b, haplogroup T is also found in the Southern Egypt/northern Sudan area. Its geographical distribution appears to parallel that of the mtDNA haplogroup M1, so the two may have been companion lineages.

Thanks captain obvious with horseshit leniencies. Now, let's get to the real issue at hand: your kadab explanation of a population bottleneck and its relevance to the Somali Haplogroup T population and the Adal Sultanate war with the Abyssinians.

[Bilis]

L-208 is a subclade of T-M70. It is found as far afield as Europe and is not a distinctive Middle Eastern marker. It is also well represented among Egyptian T haplogroup carriers.

In order to determine how closely related Somali L-208 carriers are to other populations, an extensive Y chromosome scan would need to be conducted.

I am well aware that L208 is a subclade of haplogroup T-M70. I just indicated as much.

That this sublineage is found as far afield as Europe is likewise something I pointed out. However, this doesn't change the fact that L208 is today most common in the Arabian peninsula. This area also has the greatest diversity of haplogroup T subclades in general.

It therefore seems that haplogroup T is an old Arabian lineage that made its way to Northeast Africa at some point in antiquity. Its L208 subclade could have reached present-day Somali territory either directly via Southern Arabia, but more probably indirectly with early Afro-Asiatic-speaking settlers from the Nile Valley.

[Bilis]

Thanks captain obvious with horseshit leniencies. Now, let's get to the real issue at hand: your kadab explanation of a population bottleneck and its relevance to the Somali Haplogroup T population and the Adal Sultanate war with the Abyssinians.

I already explained the Adal theory and why it was a possibility based on the present-day frequency distribution of haplogroup T in the Somali territories.

However, you have not explained why you believe that "the indigenous Somali populations that carry haplogroup T were simply drastically reduced". By this, you seem to be implying that haplogroup T frequencies were similarly high in the past elsewhere in the Somali territories. What makes you certain of this? And how were these indigenous Somali populations drastically reduced? I have my own idea, but I want to hear yours.

[Bilis]

Now, let's get to the real issue at hand: your kadab explanation of a population bottleneck and its relevance to the Somali Haplogroup T population and the Adal Sultanate war with the Abyssinians.

Also, what do you make of the so-called ancient Phoenician presence in Northeast Africa?

[Bilis]

Now, let's get to the real issue at hand: your kadab explanation of a population bottleneck and its relevance to the Somali Haplogroup T population and the Adal Sultanate war with the Abyssinians.

On that ancient Phoenician presence, there's a theory that the base ancestral stock in the Horn was Phoenician rather than Puntite (Hamitic). Other elements would later then have been grafted onto that Phoenician foundation, depending on the family. This might support your suggestion that haplogroup T was dominant in the past in the Somali territories:

The Ethiopians are not homogenous although most speak Amharic. Over half belong to the Galla, Somali and Afar groups which are in themselves a mixture. Almost certainly they reflect a Phoenician genetic legacy, together with that of ancient Egyptians, Berbers and negroid peoples. A later addition was Semitic blood from across the Red Sea.

However, the Puntite artifacts that were excavated in the Somali territories makes this theory unlikely. Evidently, the Puntites are the actual base ancestral stock of the Afro-Asiatic/Hamitic-Semitic populations in the Horn. This, in turn, suggests that both haplogroups E1b1b and T were likely associated with this ancient population.

[PharaohLiban]

F both Arabs and Black Africans, we were related to ancient Egyptians and the Berbers but most of them are all assimilated (especially in Egypt).
None of them are our related groups, I dont see why some Somalis beg negroes, especially in US and UK or beg Arabs in Somalia and nearby countries. We have nothing to do with none of them. And you cannot compare African Americans who ahve been raped for centuries to look more like us because of white genes in them compared to black Africans from Kenya, Tanzania, Congo deep in the heart of negro land. And how is it even possible to connect us to modern Arabs.
If we dont stop this bullshit we will end up like Yemen and Egypt who had populations like ours but now look like half caste dirty people, or we will end up assimilated with Bantu negroids and be looking like a goddamn hairless gorilla.
Somalia needs to stfu and get its act together, because only Eritrea, Somalia and Ethiopia that are Cushitic left. And by Cushitic I am not talking language family but just using it as a racial enclave because most of our peoples speak these languages.
Go back and learn about our ancestors, they were smart apart from the clan system.

[samaalenoble]

F both Arabs and Black Africans, we were related to ancient Egyptians and the Berbers but most of them are all assimilated (especially in Egypt).
None of them are our related groups, I dont see why some Somalis beg negroes, especially in US and UK or beg Arabs in Somalia and nearby countries. We have nothing to do with none of them. And you cannot compare African Americans who ahve been raped for centuries to look more like us because of white genes in them compared to black Africans from Kenya, Tanzania, Congo deep in the heart of negro land. And how is it even possible to connect us to modern Arabs.
If we dont stop this bullshit we will end up like Yemen and Egypt who had populations like ours but now look like half caste dirty people, or we will end up assimilated with Bantu negroids and be looking like a goddamn hairless gorilla.
Somalia needs to stfu and get its act together, because only Eritrea, Somalia and Ethiopia that are Cushitic left. And by Cushitic I am not talking language family but just using it as a racial enclave because most of our peoples speak these languages.
Go back and learn about our ancestors, they were smart apart from the clan system.

Rageedi, that's the spirit.

[samaalenoble]

#wrap





What a f***tard. Let's finally get to the kadab angling and outright lying that you ever so want to run from.

Your definition of a population bottleneck:

However, since the autosomal DNA of haplogroup T-carrying Somalis is essentially the same as that of haplogroup E1b1b-carrying Somalis, it appears that these haplogroup frequencies in the former Adal area were in the recent past artificially inflated through what is known as a population bottleneck. A population bottleneck is basically when a portion of a population dies or is killed off through natural disasters, war, or some other calamity.

The correct definition of a population bottleneck:

"A population bottleneck (or genetic bottleneck) is a sharp reduction in the size of a population due to environmental events (such as earthquakes, floods, fires, disease, or droughts) or human activities (such as genocide). Such events can reduce the variation in the gene pool of a population; thereafter, a smaller population (of animals/people) with a correspondingly smaller genetic diversity, remains to pass on genes to future generations of offspring through sexual reproduction."

You deviously took out "genocide" and inserted "war". I then told you a 14 year war event with 15th century firearms isn't a "population bottleneck". It is a population decline.

Here comes your real intended horseshit:

In this case, many E1b1b-carrying Somalis were killed during the Adal Sultanate's medieval Futuh al-Habash or conquest of Abyssinia.

Do you even understand what a population bottleneck is? The most fittest survive. Besides, Haplogroup T wasn't the smaller population in the Adal Sultanate Wars, E1b1b was, but you obviously already knew that.

The Northern Dir (with a good sum of the Isaaq) are the highest Haplogroup T carriers. They still live, prosper, and reproduce today, in that very region where the Adal Sultanate reigned. These Somalis, have the exact same sexual reproductive behaviors of any other real Somali who want a "laandeer". The Northern Dir faced a "population decline" during and after the Adal Sultanate wars and collapse.

You can't steal their history. You can't steal their history with archeology. And you most certainly can't steal it with science.

When I first called you on your horseshit, you decided to debase my calling out with a bullshit implication/assumption that I believed Haplogroup T was widespread. So then I called you out again, and what did you do? You decided to debase my calling out with the same bullshit implication again and adding on to it this time, a "you prove your theory".

Well you know what? I don't have much to explain. My explanation is simplest and right in front of your face. You obviously don't know how serious scientific inquiry is conducted.

The principle of parsimony:

"a criterion for deciding among scientific theories or explanations. One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic."


I'm Nasa and you and Itraf there are Moon landing conspiracy theorists.

Shit, that's actually too good for you guys. You guys are an afrocentric Ghanian in a London flat on the EgyptSearch forum stating Ancient Egypt belonged to Ghanians and Nigerians.

Anyhow, Somalis need to realize that they must not use their intelligence and wit on each other but on their true enemies: Habeshas, Oromos, Bantus and so on and so forth.


Split the continent called "Africa" 2015. God bless the Somalis, have a nice day.