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THE ISLAMIC THREAT: MYTH OR REALITY?

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Dec. 16, 2000): THE ISLAMIC THREAT: MYTH OR REALITY?
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Trauntlabgirl

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 02:26 am
Asalaamu alaikum:

The basic tenets of Islaam are clearly well-defined and they must be adopted and implemented by every muslim. However, we often hear the term "Islamic fundamentalism" attached to the activities of certain groups of muslims. Does this term exist? I mean, are there Fundamentlist Muslims and non-fundamentalist Muslims?
Moreover, Isreali leaders are quoting as saying the greatest danger to world peace is "Islamic fundamentalism". Muslim leaders fearing oppostion parties echo the same thing. Newspapers in the US/Canada or the West in general routinely use the phrases "Islamic fundamentalism", "Islamic extremism", "Islamic terrorism" e.t.c. We even hear of the unfamous terms "the green cancer" or the "the green threat" in reference to Islam.
Does the West fear Islam? Should the West fear Islam?

Your input will be appreciated. If we disagree, pls lets agree to disagree.

Ma'asalaamah.
TLG.

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Hakima

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 03:04 am
Sis,

I as i recall, the term "Islamic Fundamentalist"
was coined back in the 1960s. I think that group
first were known in Egypt and the reason it existed i guess was because of the political conflicts between the late president Gamal Abdi-Nasr and a leader of a brotherhood group (al-ikhwaan). My memory failed me to remember exactly what the debate was all about. But i believe the issue is political...how government should be run. But ofcourse, the great west tries its best to make muslims appear as the terriorists and them the protectors of peace.
I'm running of time...but will definitely, will come back.

peace...

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common

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 03:44 am
Dear Sister

Asalaam Aleikum

I would also suggest, that the west, particular America, needs a enemy. Since the end of the cold war and in the era of a unipolar world, they have created the"sacred rage" thing of "Islamic terrorists" to keep military spending high and excuses for intevention etc. Similary a lot of these regimes in power in the middle east , are in fact dependant on Israel very existance to survive..as it seems that Muslim countries can mostly on agree on one thing. Israel is bad. So if Israel was to be dealt with effectively, interanl divisions which have already splintered the muslims (arab world in particular) would explode. A lot of these "islamist" groups are socailst orientated,(There is a good book called the failure of political Islam by Roy Oliver, you might wanna check it out )and are basically a response to colonisation and imperialism in both form and content. You see them chanting things like "Islam is the answer" and Islam is supreme, western media is extreme". the former begs the question the answer to what?, and the latter highlights how badly we have been affected by distorted images ourselves.
I would argue, my sister that since colonisation we have not been even no where near phyclogical normal.We have always articulted our deen, or our other identities be it black African or Arab or Asain in response to the European. Instead of as the truth.
Fanon argues that Colonisation is like a mother who constantly protects her child from commiting suicide against its inherent evil self, the mother protects the child from its phisology, its biology,
Descartes argues that Mans unhappness is due to him first having been a child. Is not this "islamist" groups unhappiness from having been subordinated for the past century or so?
Simmone de beavoiur argues that a child is cast under a universe that they didn't not help to establish, beneath soverign eyes and goes further to say than no project can be undertaken without inference to another project.
Hegel agrees arguing that "each conciousness seeks the death of others"
i think as Muslims we struggled to deal with western advances in the material sciences effectivly. and have been suffering since. I mean if they were doing sucessful brain surgery in Eygpt 2000 years ago, why would they be in such awe of this civilisation. I mean its okay, but we have been crippled by it? Everything we do is in response to it, we are either pro western or anti western?. What do we care. As muslims we have a sphere of concern(the whole world) and a sphere of influnce(what we can acheive), if we focus on our sphere of concern,, nothing happens we just get overwhelmed this is self defeating state, whther you are politised or depolised you will not gain much, if we focus on our shphere of influence we will find that our sphere of concern will decrease.We have sjust stopped thing.I was travelling in Morocco and the old Medina Walls..halt abruptly in testiment to french military prowess,and teh superical moderinisation of of achiceture takes over. It is so blatent.lol.
The west does fear in Islam, casue it has to for its survival, for example when i speak..i seek the death of your opinions, and to replace them with mine. And they are very learned in what they need to do to contain it, they work very hard at this. The sad thing is that it seems they love money, Dunnah..all the things they seek...more than we Love Allah (swt)
Did i veer of topic here?.. i think maybe i did.lol.
Sorry my sistuh.

Hakima nice message Sister...

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asad

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 04:42 am
"Does the West fear Islam? Should the West fear Islam?"


the fear was always there. when the prophet first preached islam in arabia, the pagan arabs and other people like the jews didn't want islam to spread.

"I would also suggest, that the west, particular America, needs a enemy. Since the end of the cold war and in the era of a unipolar world, they have created the"sacred rage" thing of "Islamic terrorists" to keep military spending high and excuses for intevention etc."


the pagan arabs and the jews tried to stop the spread of islam and they created propoganda against islam, the prophet and his followers. they said the Qur'an was magic, the prophet was crazy and the followers of the prophet were attached and prosecuted. the badil will always go against the haq and will use anything to undermine the spread of islam.


"Similary a lot of these regimes in power in the middle east , are in fact dependant on Israel very existance to survive..as it seems that Muslim countries can mostly on agree on one thing. Israel is bad."

there were always hypocrites who worked with the jews in the effort to stop islamic spread. the hypocrites (the leaders) in madina used to get advice and monetary help from the jews in order to undermine islam. ;-)


"So if Israel was to be dealt with effectively, interanl divisions which have already splintered the muslims (arab world in particular) would explode."

first these puppets (the hypocrites--the regimes in power) need to be dealt before anything else. but most importantly, the prophet and his followers practiced the religion and organized themselves before dealing with the hypocrites and the jews in madina. ;-)


"A lot of these "islamist" groups are socailst orientated,(There is a good book called the failure of political Islam by Roy Oliver, you might wanna check it out )and are basically a response to colonisation and imperialism in both form and content."

lol----------->socialist orientated. ;-)


"You see them chanting things like "Islam is the answer" and Islam is supreme, western media is extreme". the former begs the question the answer to what? and the latter highlights how badly we have been affected by distorted images ourselves."

well, islam is the answer (solution) to the problems muslims are facing, right? ;-). to implement this solution (islam in people's lives) the people first have to practice islam. then, changes will happen....the enemy (within and without) will not succeed and the image of islam that the enemy portrayed will disappear. ;-) "Allah will not change the condition of a people unless they change it themselves". ;-)

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common

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 06:14 am
uh huh you are right asad
Islam is the answer the point was..what brought the question up?.What casued the problems Is it a reaction to external influence?..or seeking guidence in the Revelation from Allah (swt).

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asad

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 06:37 am
"Islam is the answer the point was..what brought the question up?.What casued the problems Is it a reaction to external influence?..or seeking guidence in the Revelation from Allah (swt)"


well, external or internal influence (the enemies of islam) are trying their best to stop those who are seeking guidance in the revelation from Allah (the Qur'an). practice of islam is the ultimate solution. prevention--proactive is better than reacting to the problem. if the muslims practice, the enemy of islam (internal or external) will not succeed. there will always be hypocrites and the enemies of islam (jews and christians). ;-). again, "Allah will not change the condition of a people unless they change it themselves". ;-)

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Jeego

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 08:17 am
Yes Islamic Fundamentalist Exits so are Christian,Jews Fundamentalist. But west lebals anyone who practices islam and rebels against system or anything else that has got nothing to do with islam if they deem to be against their interest. for them is very useful weapon to gain support and mobilize their own communities and other communities.
the blame also rests with people who are born! islam and never practiced what they preach, this people abuse Islam more then the west's propoganda, their goal is misguided ideas or self interest for certain group,sect,race,Tribe,clan,party etc.

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anonymous

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 08:27 am
Jeego

"The blame also rests with people who are born! islam and never practiced what they preach, this people abuse
Islam more then the west's propoganda, their goal is misguided ideas or self interest for certain
group,sect,race,Tribe,clan,party" etc.


You said it all........

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Galool

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 09:01 am
TLG
There is essentially nothing wrong with the concept of Fundamentalism, and there is no major threat to western civilization from any "Fundamentalist" Islamic or christian group.

Common is right in asserting that the industrial-military establishment's search of "Enemies" after the collapse of the Soviet Union partially explains the demonisation of all Islam and Islamists as potential Fundamentalist terrorists. What they fail to see is that overall, Muslims are usually the victims of violence rather than its perpetrators. "Islamic" guerrilla outfits appearing in parts of the Middle-east and the rest of Asia are mainly popular reactions to what most Muslims perceive as the persecution of their brethren all over the world. There is major inferiority complex in the collective Islamic Psyche. The Hindus, Serbs, Russians and Jews kill muslims almost at will (by the way India, not Israel, being the worst offender)

The other side of Islamic Fundamentalism is primarily the localised socio-political organisations mainly in the Arab world, who pose no threat to the west whatsoever, their main aims being to topple the inept and often corrupt regimes that rule those countries. Their threat ( as we have seen in Sudan and Iran)is to the people of those countries rather than the West.

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Arawelo

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 09:16 am
Galool,

Good to see you.

My opinion on the way. But not today.

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Hakima

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 10:10 am
Common: Man can u pleaseeeee write my public choice paper for me :-)

Galool: my gentleman... sorry & welcome board...
but watch ur step pal :-)

Jeego: I totally agree with you. The brothers in Egypt back in 1996 or 1997 killed 58 tourists...n why? just to get their targets. Some are using Islam as a cover.

Galool: But if all muslim countries become united and were ruled under Islamic Sharia...wouldn't the west lose the rish resources of the east? and thus could face a new economic order which will definitely treat their own existence?

peace...

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Trauntlabgirl

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 10:23 am
To all...

good discussion so far...I'll refrain from adding anything til I hear what everyone has to say.

Salaams,
TLG.

P.S. Galool, looks like you are in demand..lol. I wonder why? Could it be that you are loved?:-) Or is it because being the new kid in the forums/block there are things I don't know.

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anonymous

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 11:00 am
"as the present wave of Islamic awakening spreads throughout the world, the forces hostile to islam and the dignity, independence, and rights of nations launch fresh offensives against the muslim ummah, and everyday a new front is opened against it. there remains no doubt that the 'world-eaters' are engaged in an undeclared all-out war against islam. in fact, the enemies of Islam have never relented in their attacks ever since it appeared on the stage of history. whenever there emerged signs of serious commitment to its teachings and ideals on behalf of muslim masses, the enemies have intensified their murderous attacks. as long as self-seeking powers and groups dominate the destiny of nations, continuous struggle will remain a fixed aspect of the life of a muslim, even as perpetual aggression shall remain an unchanging aspect of the conduct of the enemies, as declared by Allah in verse 217 of surah ll-baqara - not to ever succumb to the pressures of the enemy: "They will not cease to fight with you, till they turn you from your religion, if they are able; and whosoever of you turns from his religion and dies disbelieving - their works have failed in this life and in the Hereafter they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." the reason for this unrelenting and unending enmity towards islam should be sought in the character of the genuine islamic ethos and the character of its avowed enemies. who are the enemies of Islam? what are their objectives and why do they feel so threatened by it? are they opposed to its theological doctrines? Are they against its ethical teachings? are they opposed to its pure and unadulterated rites? are they afraid of its pristine purity or its mystical dimensions? do they feel threatened by the glorious tradition of tauheed, equality, brotherhood and muhabbat? if we reflect on these questions and study the conduct of the enemies in regard to the various aspects of the islamic tradition, we will see that that which arouses their intense hatred is the threat to their dehumanizing philosophy of man and its materialistic culture. the problem with the enemies of Islam is that their interests depend on the violation of the religious rites, beliefs, and interests of other human beings. islam does not, can not and will not recognize such interests as violate the criteria of justice and human dignity. it does not consider them as legitimate, it seeks to abolish them. by raising human beings above that of the animal level, islam equips them with a sense of dignity, independence and commitment to higher values. islam produces human beings who cannot tolerate injustice, oppression, repression and indignity. It is this kind of human being which is the greatest threat to the enemies of Islam, whose domination depends on his lust for power and enslaving others and depriving them of their God-given dignity as human beings. what the enemies of Islam fail to understand is that the revolutionary role of Islam in the contemporary world must be understood in the light of its profound capacity to help humanity 'become what they can and deeply need to become'. The most holy and glorious Qur'an, the sunnah and the seerah of our beloved prophet are there to help them attain the perfection of which they are capable, for which their inner being deeply aspires and for which Almighty Allah Today, as in the past, the enemies of Islam do not come from the oppressed and exploited nations and classes, for they are the ones who stand to gain by islamic equality and justice, which all the all the prophets were sent to establish in society as declared by Almighty Allah in verse 25 of surah al-hadid: "We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them The Book and the Balance of right and wrong that men may uphold justice." the arch-enemies of islam today are those big powers of the west whose political and economic power and domination is based on the exploitation, cultural degradation, and slavery of the oppressed masses of the third world, a domination that is repudiated and challenged by islam. yet what is very funny is that these western predators most shamelessly style themselves as champions of human rights. the truth is that when man becomes alienated from almighty Allah nd forgets the role and the destiny that Almighty Allah has determined for him, he degenerates to a level below that of an animal. for such a degenerate creature values do not have any innate sanctity of their own. all that such a creature understands is sensual desires, lust for power, amassing wealth and prestige - a hollow and meaningless prestige that only such a creature can crave for, a prestige which it deserves. unfortunately for our world and the humanity of today, it is such creatures that preside over its fate. the result is the horrible state of affairs throughout the world, wherein injustice, violation of the rights of nations, their independence and dignity, moral chaos and bankruptcy, hypocrisy and discrimination are the order of the day. islam repudiates all forms of discrimination between human beings in regard to the application of higher human values and principles. " O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as Witness to fair dealings, and let not the hatred of others swerve you to do wrong and to depart from Justice. Be Just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." a 'civilization' that conveniently and unscrupulously subordinates human values to interests is not really worthy of being called a civilization. no matter however it may develop its material aspects, it will forever remain hollow at its human core, which is always moral-spiritual. the more it advances in sacrificing ideals and values to interests, the more perverse and degenerate it becomes. but this process is not going to go on forever. sooner or later when the ultimate Source of all being, who created mankind to fulfill its own purposes, sees that men use its bounty and blessings to violate its law and scorn its will and design, out of Its infinite mercy It will restore humanity to spiritual health by amputating its rotten bodily member. almighty Allah's wrath may come by day or by night, whether people are arrogantly defying His Laws or are sunk in lethargy or vain dreams of unreality. Who can escape Allah's Decree, and who can feel themselves outside it except those who are seeking their own ruin and destruction? Almighty Allah's warning has been made crystal clear to His enemies in verses 97 to 99 in surah al-a'raf: "Do the people of the cities feel secure against the coming of Our Wrath by night while they are sleeping? Do the people of the cities feel secure that Our Wrath shall not come upon them in broad daylight while they are playing? Do they feel secure against Allah's devising? No one can feel secure from Allah's Plan except those who are doomed to ruin." does the western world and countries ruled by the big powers possess any remnant of spiritual and moral life to warrant hope of its spiritual recovery and survival? will this rotten member of the ailing frame of humanity be able to recover from its petrifying gangrene? islam as a nody of life-giving teaching is the only remedy that can save this ailing humanity from perishing. But who can save a sick man who happens to be the greatest avowed enemy of his own physician? while waging a worldwide war against islam, the western powers strive to project their victims as the real aggressors, and while launching one offensive against it after another, they try to appear not to be attacking it. hence the stupid label: 'fundamentalism' and the recurring accusations of 'terrorism'. by the means of such labels, the western powers try to make it appear to the gullible public that their genocidal war is not against the more than one billion muslims of the world. Yet with all the efforts to conceal their intense hatred and fear for Islam, their acts reveal the nature and dimensions of the war that is being waged against the ummah. the continued existence of the zionist colony in palestine, the generous support and funding of that colony by western regimes especially the U.S.A., and the ongoing efforts to obtain a semblance of legitimacy for it by gathering some unthinking arabs to negotiate with the usurpers is the biggest proof of this hostility against Islam and the indifference to the rights of nations. Almighty Allah is Just and All-Clement. He will not allow injustice and savagery to go on claiming victims from amongst the innocent for ever. sooner or later, the enemies of Allah will fall prey to its own savagery and get a fresh taste of its own inner character which now manifests itself so glaringly in the conduct of the russians, the yahood, the serbs, the croats and western statesman and hypocrites. the muslim Ummah urgently needs to undergo a process of spiritual purification and renewal which can only come from the Most Glorious and Holy Qur'an and its wonderful teachings, which condemns sectarianism and sectarian prejudices. one who studies the Most Glorious Qur'an cannot fail to notice the intense concern for the plight of the misguided that runs throughout the sacred Qur'an. a true muslim cannot but share that concern. instead of harbouring a feeling of indifferent conceit towards non-muslims, we muslims should consider ourselves responsible whenever we encounter misguidance and ignorance amongst the children of prophet adam- calling the people and inviting them to the Worship of the One Creator, his beloved prophet muhammad and the life-giving Book that was revealed to him, through speech as well as deeds. The reward promised by almighty Allah is crystal clear in verse 97 of surah an-nahl: "Whoever works righteousness, be it male or female, and is a believer, We shall assuredly give him or her a life that is good and pure and reward them according to the best of their actions."

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Hakima

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 11:56 pm
True.

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common

Wednesday, November 15, 2000 - 11:57 pm
Hakima.. lol.. will you write mine if i write yours..my economics is very weak.Meanwhile i had a knightmare that Asad was marking my papers.lol.. I got them back cut and pasted, with smiles all over them.lol. and bad bad marks.lol

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asad

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 04:58 am
"Meanwhile i had a knightmare that Asad was marking my papers.lol"

lol------->i had a nightmare. ;-)

"I got them back cut and pasted"

lol

"with smiles all over them.lol"

without nightmare. ;-)


"and bad bad marks.lol"

only if it has discrepency. ;-).

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common

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 05:55 am
lol

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Hakima

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 07:15 am
lol @ common. I can hear you brother :-)


peace...

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QOONSADE

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 12:23 pm
HAVING MY OWN REASON,I CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE FUDMENTALIST; IT IS ON MY RESUME. INSHA ALLAH, I,LL BE BACK TO FURTHER ELABORATE MY POINTS.

BY THE WAY, SISTER TLG,S TOPIC IS AMAZING AND YOUR COMMENTS ARE EXTREMELY INTERESTING. YOU ARE THE PEOPLE, WHO MY HAHITH TEACHER, MULLAH, ALIYOW KEEROW TOLD ME HANG ON WITH. WHY IT TOOK SO LONG TO FIND YOU GUYS?

SALAAM TO YOU ALL.

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Tlabgirl

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 01:04 pm
<HAVING MY OWN REASON,I CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE FUDMENTALIST; IT IS ON MY RESUME. INSHA ALLAH, I,LL BE BACK TO FURTHER ELABORATE MY POINTS.>

don't forget to define what "fundamentalism" means. Does this make you different from all muslims who beleive in the same fundamentals of Islaam?

<BY THE WAY, SISTER TLG,S TOPIC IS AMAZING AND YOUR COMMENTS ARE EXTREMELY INTERESTING. YOU ARE THE PEOPLE, WHO MY HAHITH TEACHER, MULLAH, ALIYOW KEEROW TOLD ME HANG ON WITH. WHY IT TOOK SO LONG TO FIND YOU GUYS?>

Jazaakallahu khairan.

Lol@ Aliyow keerow...is that an inside joke? I'm lost, someone help!
We are here now, come hang out with us. Where do u prefer? starbucks? Second cup?

Salaams,
TLG

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Macruuf-Waryaa-Ayuuto

Thursday, November 16, 2000 - 01:36 pm
Salama...

Why not first define those terms before upon we jump the bandwagon--surety, I can clearly and observably see that-- to imbue and brainwash us:

1. Fundamentalism

2. Extremism

3. Radical

4. Conservative
__________________________________________________

I would rather prefer to allow you to do so, clearly than my own dictionaries' interpretation.
__________________________________________________

Mahad Alla!!

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Tlabgirl

Friday, November 17, 2000 - 04:19 pm
TO MACRUUF-WARYAA-AYUUTO.

Asalaamu alaikum:

I'll define fundamentalism here, the rest will follow insha allah.
1. Fundamentalism:

The shorter Oxford dictionary defines fundamentalism as "strict adherence to traditional orthodox tenets held to be fundamental to the Christian faith". It gives as an example of these tenets, "the concept of the verbal inerrancy of the scriptures".

The term "Fundamentalism" originated in America early in this century, when it was applied to ultraconservative Protestant Christian biblical literalists and inerrantists who set up a list of ‘fundamentals’ that all true Christians should follow. This definition involves: (1) tendency to take the bible literally and a belief in its inerrancy and (2) adherence to a number of elaborated fundamentals which differentiate between true believers and the rest. To see how applicable these features are to Islamic "fundamentalism", lets view them in the context of Islam. Examining the scripture metaphor, we find that the Islamic Holy Scripture, the Quran, has a central place in Islam. All Muslims, regardless of rite, sect, or piety, essentially believe in the inerrancy of the Quran as the revealed word of Allah. So, if one is to judge them by their attitude to the scriptures, all Muslims may be classified as "fundamentalists". Looking at the second point emphasizing a set of fundamentals, we know that all Muslims share a common belief in the basic fundamentals called the pillars of Islam and Iman. Adherence to the these fundamentals is an important part of every Muslim's faith. Therefore, no distinctions on this basis can distinguish one Muslim group from another. So I guess when it comes to Islaam, we can't really talk about "Fundamentalists" and "non-fundamentalist" muslims. The media coined the term.

Salaam,
TLG.

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common

Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 03:10 am
i think TGL is right.. the concept seems flawed when dealing with muslims
i watched this t.v program once with this Christains who used to handle snakes in their Church casue it is in their scipture or something..and every years they would ahve fatalities and every one though they were nuts, even other christians..plus i would add the fact again that my christain friend..says we tend to ignore they old testiment as it is crazy.
I think TGL is right it is a media concept,
call me parnoid but i think it is designed to create rift in Islam. For example, there is a label of a moderate muslim and a fundemtalist muslim. One person asked me once if i orginally a muslim..another referd to me as a modern muslim. the underlying assupmtion being that Islam is something that is evolved out of ..or needs to evolved out of. And i think it is working, have you noticed how some people (this can happen to anyone including myself and has done )get upset when you remind them that something is not sunnah. i think there is both a deep phycological reaction to being reminded of something good which has to realte with our egos..and the other i think is the media.. and how it is belived that certain things are not relevant to the modern age.
so basically i agree.. under that definition all muslims are fundermentalist/..and under that defintion all muslims are the enemy.
Imagine what we do to their industries?.. these people love money. Imagine a group of consumers who don't purchase alcohol, or food that is not halal, who spend out of their wealth on charity and not new goods..which are not neccesary a group of people who oppose interest which the whole international banking systme is based on.We really do mess up their economies. and who are not persuaded by advertising to change their minds of these issues. They are not impressed.

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Arawello

Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 03:59 am
How it is beleaved that certai things are relevant to the modern age. That is a good point.

Your last points i think you are saying the huma desire comes first. So, Religion can be obstacle any relgion, and Islam is the worst enemy with ath regard. Islam does not encourage overconsuming and materialism so is the enamy of the Western companies.

you know I also think this label of fundamentalism whcih I agree is a media concept i also think the idea worked on the muslims tahn non-musloms.

I have a practical examples but come back may be latter.

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Tlabgirl

Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 11:38 am
Salaams:
Arawello and Common, I agree with both of you. Infact, i've heard muslims say, "i'm not the Taliban" when u remind them of a wrong act or tell them to do something good.

Having said that, I also think that We as MUSLIMS (note: i'm not saying ISLAM) have a role to play in this whole issue. It looks like our ummah is not strong or courageous enough to come out and condemn the splinter groups that carry out acts that violate the norms of Islaamic justice. We are comanded to correct people. Even at the times of the congregational prayers, if the imaam makes a mistake, it is our obligation to correct him. Why can't we come out to correct or condemn our brothers/sisters that are carrying out horrific acts in the name of Islaam? After all, aren't we supposed to enjoin good and forbid evil? You know, when we remain silent, it looks as if we are condoning their acts.

salaams.

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common

Sunday, November 19, 2000 - 04:48 am
TBL

i think you are again right.. you keeping more than your fair share of right answers.
that "i'm not the Taliban" thing mad me smile.
Ya Allah!. we ahve issues as an ummah.
Sister.. these "splinter groups" are usually the only ones who speak up. we let them and the west define us.
Yesterday i heard a quote from a black feminst..i can't remember it all but she said.
If we do not define ourselves then others will define us and use it to our detriment.
I think the same concept applies to muslims, we need to define our selves..and stand in the Shade of Islam and the Sun of the Quran.. i don't undertsand why we sometimes feel embarassed to be muslim, i mean the Prophet Moses (pbuh) wanted to be one of our ummah.
It is related taht he asked Allah (swt) i heard that there is a ummah who will pray fives times a day.. let thme be my ummah .. Allah relied no that is the Prophet Mohammeds (pbuh) ummah.. then he reapeted the request when he heard that there was a ummah who would fast..and again give out of their wealth for charity.. again and again Allah (swt) would explain thatt this was the ummah of the Prophet Mohamed finanly Mose (pbuh) said
"Oh Allah make me of the ummah of Prophet Mohamed"
can you imagine Prohpet Moses wanted to be of our ummah..and the bad things that we do.. i am so ashamed of my actions..
pray for me brothers and sisters
waslaam

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TLG

Sunday, November 19, 2000 - 07:27 am
<Yesterday i heard a quote from a black feminst..>

Common :-) no comment...lol

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wanaagasane

Monday, November 20, 2000 - 12:26 am
assalamu calaykum:

Trauntlabgirl, sis...oops cousin....

The term islamic fundamentalism existed as far back as the late 40:s when the great sheikh Xasan (egyptian cleric) begun the muslim brotherhood movement (akwanul muslim). However the term was used by the british colonialists and some egyptians who wanted the western way of life in egypt to be the status quo.

The word fundamentalism has however been politicised to the extent that, it today refers to any muslim...In the other religions the word orthodox, christian right-wing etc is used to describe a peron who sticks to his religion. Unfortunately this term is used to describe any muslim.

This word, is nevertheless, a word that bears the marks of religious intolerence, bilndness etc.....Various groups fighting for their rights including somalis, arabs etc have used these term as a poltical tool....this and the word jihaad.

Groups fighting oppression and their rights are often labelled as fundamentalists by the western or at times home-grown media. It may be that their actions have nothing to do with islam...or at times even against the teachings of islam.


You just have to look at the suggestions made in this forums to realise that the word is used differntly .........


Does the West fear Islam? It depends.....as it is today, the west is the only place where islam can be practised.....It is upto us muslims to prove to that west that islam is a tolerant religion and that western governments have taken some of their laws from islam. To do, this the muslims need to communicate Allah messages in a manner which the people of the west understand...We need muslim scholars who have knowledge of the social aspects of western life. DO WE HAVE SUCH SCHOLARS:...??

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Aro

Monday, November 20, 2000 - 07:57 am
''To do that the Muslims must communicate with a manner that the Westren poeple understand''
'' We need Muslim scholars who have knowledge of the social aspect of the Westrn life do we have such shcolars''


You got me wondered. I am not sure if you just said it or you have a strong opinion of that.

In what manner.

which aspect.

and what scholars.

Please do not leave me confused.

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asad

Monday, November 20, 2000 - 08:04 am
"Does the West fear Islam? It depends.....as it is today, the west is the only place where islam can be practised"

very funny. ;-). what you are saying is that lthe western countries are the only places that are islamic countries, right? wanaagsane? ;-)

"It is upto us muslims to prove to that west that islam is a tolerant religion and that western governments have taken some of their laws from islam. To do, this the muslims need to communicate Allah messages in a manner which the people of the west understand"

lol. no matter what (as the Qur'an tell us) the muslims do (to prove to the west that islam is a tolerant religoin) and no matter how the muslims follow their correct religion, the west (the christians and the jews) will never be satisfied with islam. as it is written above: "as the present wave of Islamic awakening spreads throughout the world, the forces hostile to islam and the dignity, independence, and rights of nations launch fresh offensives against the muslim ummah, and everyday a new front is opened against it. there remains no doubt that the 'world-eaters' are engaged in an undeclared all-out war against islam. in fact, the enemies of Islam have never relented in their attacks ever since it appeared on the stage of history. whenever there emerged signs of serious commitment to its teachings and ideals on behalf of muslim masses, the enemies have intensified their murderous attacks. as long as self-seeking powers and groups dominate the destiny of nations, continuous struggle will remain a fixed aspect of the life of a muslim, even as perpetual aggression shall remain an unchanging aspect of the conduct of the enemies, as declared by Allah in verse 217 of surah ll-baqara - not to ever succumb to the pressures of the enemy: "They will not cease to fight with you, till they turn you from your religion, if they are able; and whosoever of you turns from his religion and dies disbelieving - their works have failed in this life and in the Hereafter they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." the reason for this unrelenting and unending enmity towards islam should be sought in the character of the genuine islamic ethos and the character of its avowed enemies..............."


"We need muslim scholars who have knowledge of the social aspects of western life. DO WE HAVE SUCH SCHOLARS:...??

you seem to be an scholar who knows and says that a country like america is an islamic country, right? ;-)

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wanaagsane

Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 02:45 am
assalamu calaykum:

asad, I live in a western country, and this country has provided me with the religious freedom to practice my faith (islam), which unfortunately the so-called Islamic countries don't offer it's citizens.....that was what i was refering to......remember geographical boundaries are created by ppl..........

have we been not persecuted/refused safe heavens in somalia, saudi arabia and others?....are they not muslim countries?.........

USA as a political entity is not a muslim country, but I am sure the muslims living there can make it a muslim country.

You write "the christians and jews..........will never be satisfied with islam: islam is the religion spreading the most in the world...and most of these convertees are christians and jews.....

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asad

Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 03:34 am
"asad, I live in a western country, and this country has provided me with the religious freedom to practice my faith (islam), which unfortunately the so-called Islamic countries don't offer it's citizens.....that was what i was refering to......remember geographical boundaries are created by ppl..------have we been not persecuted/refused safe heavens in somalia, saudi arabia and others?....are they not muslim countries?"

as i said it before, this country belongs to Allah. many many muslims from different countries who came to america did not come to it because they want to practice islam, did you, wanaagsane? ;-).

this country is not an islamic nor a christian country niether a jews country. in fact, there is no such think as islamic country in the world today, because non of the countries rule the law of the Qura'n fully. there are muslims (in saudi arabia, in somalia and in america) whose rights to practice islam are being violated and are being wronfully put in prisons. therefore, saudi arabia, somalia and america do not make a person muslim or non muslim. ;-).

"USA as a political entity is not a muslim country, but I am sure the muslims living there can make it a muslim country."

well, Allah would not change the condition of a people unless they want to change themselves-----that is the rule of every people in every country----muslims or non-muslims. ;-)

"You write "the christians and jews..........will never be satisfied with islam"

yes, that is true. it is in the Qur'an too. ;-)

"islam is the religion spreading the most in the world"

yes, that is true. no one can stop the spread of islam, despite the kufars hatred for islam and their effort to stop it. that is in the Qur'an too. ;-)

"and most of these convertees are christians and jews"

yes, that is true. but the fact is that most of the kufars (non-converters) who hate and fight against the islamic spread are christians and jews too. ;-)

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common

Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 08:49 am
wasaange
a salaam aleiukum

Dear Brother

what you have said..and what has been repeated is not the same thing.

Don't worry about it.. the amount of time it takes to explain to no avail is not worth your dignity sahib
one love

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asad

Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 09:27 am
"Dear Brother what you have said..and what has been repeated is not the same thing. Don't worry about it. the amount of time it takes to explain to no avail is not worth your dignity sahib
one love""

i think he knows that his outlook to things and mine are different. if he or anybody here thinks that people will not continue to disagrees with him or her, he or she will continue to worry and loose dignity. ;-)

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wisdom

Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 09:32 am
'Islamic Fundamentalist' to me is some one following the fundamentals of Islam...what's better than that...the enemies of Islam have to come up with a more negative name instead of coming up with a positive name like 'Islamic Fundamentalists'

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Alyisa

Friday, November 24, 2000 - 05:14 pm
As I was reading through the comments people posted, I noticed someone say the reason why the West targets muslims is because it needed a new enemy since the end of the cold war. Yes this is partly true but let's not forget the kafirs were always enemies of Islam. The west targets Islam because Islam is against EVERYTHING they stand for. They wanted to be the super power of the world and they couldn't do that unless they prevented the system of Islam from emerging. So they decided to wage a war against us but they didn't wage a physical war, they waged a mental war. They tried to twist the words of Allah, trained muslim scholars, introduced new concepts to our religion and divided us into sects. In the end they achieved what they wanted. They convinced us that their man-made system(democracy/communism or whatever) was better than the perfect system of Allah ("This day I have PERFECTED your religion for you" ). They made sure we never recovered by placing agents in muslim countries as leaders to further oppress the ummah. They've labeled those who call for the rivival of Islam as "fundamentalists" (as if being a fundamentalist is a bad thing) and associated with them a negative image so muslims will be too affraid to associate with them (may Allah give us the courage to speak the truth under any circumstance).
Today everywhere you look we're being oppressed as a result of the kafir's brainwashing. We've been led astray from Islam to the point where it is necessary to re teach islam to the masses. Muslims love their flag more than they love Islam. I can assure you if Somalia was invaded every single somali person would be on the front lines willing to die defending it, but when Islam is under attack we sit here and make excuses as to why we can't do anything.
Allah tells us: "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah" (3:110 ). We're meant to be the best of the best not some helpless little creatures with kufaristic mentality. So let's undo the damage and start acting like MUSLIMS.

May Allah guide us to the straight path, unite our hearts and break down the barriers that keep us divided.
"And verily this Ummah of yours is a One Ummah, and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me." (23:52)

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MAD MAC

Monday, November 27, 2000 - 02:26 am
This is a GREAT discussion. As the rooms lone infidel and swine, please allow me to give you the "western" point of view from a genuine westerner.

I think Common, reinforced by a number of others, has overstated the "America needs an enemy" theme and hence picks Islam for the post cold war enemy. There is a degree of truth that most societies look for a foil. But I think we are quick to grasp that as if to indicate that conflict with Islam is inevitable. I personally do not believe that VIOLENT conflict is inevitable. Philosophical conflict is inevitable and I'll get to that in a moment.

I definately think we need to be cautious when looking at each other in a monolithic manner. Labeling "Islam" and the "West". In fact, in both cases, we are dealing with diverse groups here that often have wide ranging opinions. Frankly, I am personally a lot closer to the Somali viewpoint on most aspects of life than I am with the Germans, and I've lived in Germany for 10 years.

The original question about whether or not Islamic Fundamentalism is a threat can be answered in two ways. Alyisa hit on one thing: Islamic Fundamentalists are against everything the west stands for. Now, whether or not we are defining fundamentalists as true followers of the Qur'an or people who practice the letter of Qur'anic law, I think we can say that the number of people who fit this description is pretty small. Same for Christian fundamentalist or Hindu or whatever. They are not about to take over the world. However, there is a group within this group that subscribes to a philosophy of any means. This group believes that any means used in striking out against anything that is kufaar - and particularly American - is legitimate. This group is both feared and despised by the "west". With the advent of nuclear weapons this group is a threat to everyone, since they could trigger a holocause of horrific proportions if they get their hands on a nuclear device. And unlike most societies which have controlled the weapons to date, they are less likely to demonstrate restraint because they believe they are devinely righteous and their enemies are basically sub-human. You will note even in these conversations (and most of you clearly have sound intellectual ability) there is a tendancy to view those from the "west" as thouogh they are not part of the "Ummah". Rather than looking upon them as potential converts most "Fundamentalists" are inclined to look at them as potential (or actual) enemies.

This brings me back to my main point. The fear of Islam is overstated. Most Americans don't have a problem with Islam per se. Of course, we all have our own individuous prejudices we have to defeat, and America specficially, and the west in general, have histories in this area more checkered than most. But in modern America (not including the Bible belt - I can't live there either because I'm a damn Yankee) a Muslim family could move in to the neighborhood and most people wouldn't give it a thought. You wouldn't see petitions going up to fight the "green menace". Nor is conversion viewed with a jaundice eye. But the second aspect of the "green Menace" which does cause one to pause, is the belief in "Islamic society". Most, if not all, of you, frequently talk about establishing an "Islamic society" governed by Islamic law. People in the West do not want religious teaching, regardless of its purity, to be the law of the land. I want room to live my life as I see fit, without the intrusion of anyone elses morality - be it Christian or Islamic or Jewish or who knows what. Of course, to maintain a functioning society there have to be rules. And of course, most of you believe the rules laid down in the Qur'an are the best rules. But most people of the West don't want those rules to be their rules. So if Egypt wants the Sharia to be the law of the land, I am sure the official US position would be to recognize that as legitimate so long as Egypt wasn't actively encouraging acts of violence against the US. And here's the rub. The people who advocate Sharia as being the law of the land in any given country also tend to be the same people who are looking to discredit secular states through violence. It's back to that action - reaction thing.

I know I was a little verbose here. I'll try to keep it shorter in the future. Great topic though. This is my number one concern when I return to Somalia. Without a doubt, the resurgence of Islamic thought is a two edged sword there. While clearly it has the positive influence of reigning in groups that have been heretofore behaving in an amoral manner, it also carries two risk:

a. A drive to make Somali society somewhere to the right of the Taliban. I believe the Taliban grossly exagerates conservative Islamic teaching - even the Iranians call them reactionary. A closed Somali society would be tragic for the Somali people.

b. A tendancy to view anything western with a jaundice eye. Somalias economic prosperity lays with an ability to develop trade with monied states - i.e. the gulf states and the west. Other trade is, of course, also important. But Somalia can not afford to isolate itself from the west, esspecially economically.

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wanaagsane

Monday, November 27, 2000 - 02:41 am
assalamu calaykum:

I decided not to actively participate in this forums, but I am getting this urge to write a few more lines.

ASAD: Diversity in reasoning and thinking is acceptable in islam. While most of your comments were worthwhily and enlightening, I can't help but think that you believe you are the only smart enough to know the righeteous way. I think, it would be helpful if you could try to see to see things differently. I once accuused you of being on the defensive, and your comments lately have only contributed to that fact . Somebody of your calibre(I saw you quoting hadith and the holly quran) should not try to label people (infidels, non-muslims etc)...Remember it is ONLY that judges people because he knows what is in our heart.

Common: I understand bro........

Mad_Mac: Very educated and informed man. You are not mad are you?.......Isolation is not the way...but a religious understanding and tolerance


RAMADAN KARIIM

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QOONSADE

Monday, November 27, 2000 - 10:21 am
RAMADAAN KARIIM

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 11:39 pm
This is a great conversation which seems to be losing interest. Anyone out there want to comment further? Hate to see it just die on the vine.

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Arawelo

Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 09:29 am
I do not know where to start my discussion here.The only Islam that seems to have place in America is The nation of islam. Since this is mainly seem to be the black abretion against racims, and as long is stays that there seems no problem.
But the West do see Islam a threat. If there are to come an istablishment of a true islamci governments as the Ottomans were. Some may say the west keep in check that not to happen.

on the other hand, the way muslims use Islam as a political weopen againest not the West but their political revaliry shows that Islam cannot be a threat to the West at this time being. It only creates a more mess in the Islamic World.

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