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     | Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 02:01 am We often refer Islam as a way of life. I thought about it and the above title came into my mind. What made me think is that when I thought about the Islamic way of eating, charity and marriages. As human being we have natural desires that we like to meet. The Islamic rules guide us how to filful our desires. These rules able us to have a proper control of ourselves and guidance into high moral qualities. Allah SWT has given us a loving heart that makes us to fall in love. Islam does not forbid us to select a life companion. Another example, Allah has given us the sense of teste and the capacity to appreciate good food. Islam does not forbid us to appretiate on the contrary, it teaches us to live in a pure and proper way which would ensure through my progeny the perpetuation of all that my good resolves. If you look at the Quran and the Hadiths you will see there are rules for eatings. For example, it permits us to eat good food, but within proper limits, for fair we shoul eat our full and our neighbour should go hungry. Because all of those can I say it converts my natural desires into high moral qualites. In short, Islam satisfies my humanity. Ps. All brothers and sisters feel free to edit, contribute and back up this topic. Any errors and misunderstandings on this, is entirely mine and not by Islam and the all Muslims.
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| | Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 06:33 am Salamz All Arawello: come to think of what u said it has meaning, sounds good to me. But, i'm in a rush and i got to go. I'll think of what u said and then decide if i argree or not. P.S. i still think Islam is a way of life  your sister in faith MuslimSisTa salamz all
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| | Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 10:33 am Arawelo. You are doing fine sister. I hope you will strive in seeking knowledge inshallah. May Allah help you in all you desire.
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| | Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 03:35 pm TO ARAWELLOW YOU have a very going points. my ALLAH paid you for this. i love to read things that make me think. your sister pink.
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| | Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 07:26 pm Salam to everyone I agree with you arawelo that islam is a way of life, but I would like to add something to what you said. According to me a person has to make islam the foundation to stand on, then consider everything in relation to this foundation. What I mean is that my people (somali) don't have this foundation. The foundation of somali people is culture,tradition, and tribes. They consider themselves first as somali, then a particular tribe and so forth. They identify themselves as muslim last. When people do this, their lives won't have a foundation to stand on, and as a result their lives won't have a balance. When a person identifies themseives as a muslim first, they will meet their obligations and requirements concerning the religion. Then, this will make them a better citizen, a better brother, a better neighbour, a better somalian in terms of helping his community and his people. So, when a person lives islam as a way of life completely like our prophet (PBOH) did he/she will be loved and he/she will love everybody. Thank you all If am wrong please correct me
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| | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 03:49 am Ambros Way to go, " si fiican ayaad dadkeenna u tilmaantay" You may have discovered a thing or two in Islam that many shun, You speak of foundations, back to basics, our origins and humanism as sister Arrawello has put forward. May I share my insights in this topic, and excuse me if I confuse you. Imagine drinking from a river that originates from a natural spring, up in the mountains which is 1400 kilometers away. This river carries with it a lot of debris that drifted along, and the original taste of the spring water was lost. You hear of someone who drank from the original source, and who miraculously got dynamic energy to transform the environment in which they lived. You want to feel the same , You drink the muddied river water, but, there is no results. you realize that you were not even able to maintain your territory, or to up-keep your own environment habitable let alone transforming it to an ideal landscape. Now you want to head up the hill to the original spring, so you can drink and transform your environment with the same energy experineced by those who drank from the pure spring. 300 Men ( companions in Badr)have drank form such a spring called Quraan some 1400 years ago, they followed the guidelines of an instruction manual called Sunnah, they sought happiness and pursued it with determination, they got what they sought, and they left behind a legacy and a permanenet mark on the world map. I just made up this analogy to depict how after 1400 years, the original devine message of islam has lost its luster, ( in our blurred eyes) how thinkers served as repeatres whenever the devine signal got attenuated along the way, and how today we are all looking for a deliverer to the land of no pain. I would like to remind Arrawelo that we muslims should seek happiness where there is truly happiness. There is no doubt that islam is the best recipe for life on earth, however, hanging on to this world can deprive us a better world, not far from us in time. And to get to that world we do not need space ships, all we need is to shed the clothes that bind us to this world and made from its lowly materials, our bodies. so our souls glides peacefully in a heaven so pleasant we wonder how we came to accept a lowly life for so long. " nafyahay deggen, u soo laabo rabbigaaga, adigoo asaga raalli ka ah adigana aad asaga raalli ka tahay, Hadaba soo gal addoonteyda, soona gal Jannadeyda"
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| | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 05:01 am thanks allah aan islaan noqoney..nagu dil aloow islaanimo iyo ka raali noqosho...subxaana laah cadada qalqi..subxaana laah radaa nafsi..subxaana laahi sanati carshi..subxaana laahi madada kalimaatihi..wa bilaahi towfiim.
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| | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 08:07 am Salaam all, TLGseeker, i'm here now. What can I do for you bro/sis?
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| | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 01:54 am TLG I just came back from a two week absence, and I was wondering if you were still around. To avoid confusion, what is your screen name that is abbreviated for TLG? If you are the right TLG, you will be happy to know who I am. Kindest regards TLG seeker
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| | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 02:11 am Rumaan Rejoice!!!!! The entire Universe is joining you with this tasbiix. Birds in the sky Fish in the oceans trees in the wilderness From the tiniest particles known to man. To the largest groups of super gallaxies. Angels and other creatures not known to us are all praising Allah. Alxamdulillah Subxaanalla La Ilaaha, Illaa Allah Allahu Akbar Wa laa xawla wa laa quwata illaa billaah Allah and his Angels are also making Salat for Muxammad SAWS. So Salli calaa al Nabi. Be happy you are in the company of the majority of Allah's creatures.
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| | Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 06:51 pm Salaam, TLGseeker: <I just came back from a two week absence, and I was wondering if you were still around.> I'm very much around bro. Well come back. <To avoid confusion, what is your screen name that is abbreviated for TLG?> Trauntlabgirl(TLG) <If you are the right TLG, you will be happy to know who I am.> lol. Ok, I guess i'm happy. <Kindest regards> you too.
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| | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:41 am Ambros, bro/sis you are absolutly right ' a person has to make `Islam a foundatipon to stand on' ( a very good point ) everthing else will follow that and as you said we Somalis have to establish that foundation first. TGLseeker You made the point in the example. Can I not have the right to know you who you are since you are here?
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| | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:05 pm TLG Ciid Mubaarak I wish you that Allah accepts your good deeds, mine and all muslims in Ramadan. I spent the most rewarding time ever, it felt good, all over, I felt as an stranger here in this world. What i saw was soo good, nothing found on earth can get me attached to these ruins we call Life on earth. You see, TLG, I did some time traveling, I departed from our world spiritualy, the last ten days of ramadan, I took a ride on a vehicle that pretty much goes through time and space, I witnessed the creation of Adam. I was surprised to see how noble a creation is ours and how lowly our adversay the devil was. Satan could not accept man's supremacy so he vowed to humiliate man to prove that he was better in quality. He succeeded to prove his point on some of us. I observed the fall of man, I was hurt that our Grand Pa and Grand Ma were lured to break the one single order by Allah. That single tree in heaven was a symbol of all the evils that are used by Satan to divert man from his return course to find a way to his original home, I was sorry to know how our first family ended up in this world of sorrow and pain. I continued my trip to see rivalry between brothers and the ensuing dispute that resulted in the first murder. My next stop was Noah AS and his people. Here I was shown how a single man spent a lifetime calling his people to be servants to Allah alone and not to self appointed gods that divert man from Allah to worship and love worldly goods and pleasures. I could'nt but admire Noah AS for his perseverance and patience. I saw his magnificent Ark, the few followers on it, the animals and from afar I saw his people laughing at Noah. It was very touching to see how allah scolded Naoh when he tried to save his arrogant son, Noah was told that his son was not one of his followers and therefore he should not seek his safety. I t was scary to see the flood, waves the hight of mountains, the ark in the midst of these pouring and floods, a breathtaking ride that ended up on top of the Judi mounitain. This day was the second beginning of man, only believrs were saved, and the human experience began anew. Later, I saw how the decendants of Naoh have found a way to do evil on earth after it has been cleansened, ........................................................................................ This was a fraction of the scenery and events I saw the first few hours of my grand tour in which I finished almost once every twenty four hours. for the last ten days of Ramadan. If i complete the rest of what I saw I would need 600 pages to do it at least. This vehicle in which I spent these memorable moments was the QURAAN. It is found in a bookstore near you. I made sincere Dua for you, I am sure that Allah knows your screen name, for Jannah, good grades in school, good life ,a good companion ( much better than any man I know, including myself) and happiness Amin. And from experience, I have never been denied a Dua before, so anticipate and work for it, Allah has been kind to me all of my life. Brother In Islam
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| | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:28 pm Sister Arawelo You write: "Can I not have the right to know you who you are since you are here?" What do you have in common with legendary Arraweelo? everyone has a share of their name in their nature.( just kidding) I am a somali muslim brother, weak in faith, but who loves Allah very much, and those who love Allah.
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 04:24 am TGLSeeker Bro I do not share anything with legendary Arawelo, I do not even know much about her to be honest with you. I used the name because it is my birth name though I am not known by it. ( I am really interested to know abit more about this legendary arawello, any idea where I can read from) when I asked who you are I though you were one of the brothers or sisters that I came to known them on the Islamic forums. It was good you mentioned our human weakness ( I mean eventhough we try to be good muslims) you got me thinking and Insha Allah I will post a new topic.
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 10:12 am Asalaamu alaikum TLGseeker, I don't know what to say. I'm overwhelmed by emotions. I read somewhere that when you make dua for your brother/sister in their absence, an angel repeats the same dua for you. So, yaa akhee al azeez, i'm truly touched by your sincerity in wanting something good for another muslim that your hardly know. That truly is the Islamic way. I feel guilty people thinking what they think about me. I have a long way to go but won't stop improving myself as long as Allah gives me another secong to breath. Jazakallahu khairan wa baarakallahu feeka for kind words and dua. May Allah bless you and your family and give you all the goodness you deserve both in this world and in the hearafter. Your sister in Islam.
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 06:59 pm Arawelo in a nutshel, Arraweelo ( the proper Somali spelling) was a witty women who outsmarted men, lured them and sometimes destroyed them. There are many interesting stories surrounding this personality, the closest place to find such recounts is through aural traditions narrated by a grandmother (if you have a surviving one) and if she is geographically from the Mudug or Nugal regions of Somalia (where the legend more likely has lived). For your notice I am changing my screen name from (TLG Seeker) to Nur, now that I have located sister TLG who I wanted to relay my last message. Your Brother in Islam Nur
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 07:35 pm TLG Wa alaykum assalam Sis. Alhmdulillah that you think of yourself as wothless person while others think highly of you. Imam Shafici had a poem to this effect in which he says : " Uxubbu al saalixiina wa lastu minhumu" " Lacallii an anaala bihumu al shafaacati" " Wa akrahu man kaanat tijaaratuhu al macaasi ....wa low kunnaa sawaa'an fil bidaacati" Translation, " I love the righteous and I am not one of them, so I may attain their intercesion in the day of judgement. And I hate those who made sin their business, although I trade with a product similar to theirs" The prophet Muhammad SAWS has been reported to have said " The intelligent is he who blames his shortcomings on himself and works for a life after death, and the helpless is he who follows his desires and maintains wishful thinking of (mercy ) from Allah" Please note that I have changed my screen name from TLG Seeker ( for obviuos reasons) to Nur, which will be my permanent screen name in shaa Allah. Akhuukum fil Islam Nur
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 10:27 pm Dear TLG seeker or nur, I am a little confused by your use of the English language. I think, I understand the general point that you are trying to convey. you did say, <and excuse me if I confuse you. > Well, you have managed to do just that. I understand that you spent the last ten days of ramadan Reading the Quran, contemplating and reflecting on its meaning. If this is the case I caution you about saying <I did some time traveling, I departed from our world spiritualy> and <I took a ride> and <I witnessed the creation of Adam> and <I was surprised to see> Because people may read more into your writings than you intend. Also the topic at hand is Islam and not creative writing. Words, on the day of judgement will be either our best friend or our worst enemy. so we should beware of the manner we use it! There is a vast difference between saying, " it was as if I traveled and it was as if I witnessed" and saying "I travelled and I witnessed". In the strictest sense the difference is a lie! Personally I'm also very cautious about this manner of speech because I used to attend a study circle where this was the norm. Not only was it a manner of speech but they actually meant and believed that they had travelled spiritually to all kinds of places. Our "vehicle" was not the Quran but rather it was, dhikr in a dark room lit with only a candle! Needless to say I left the circle and started going to the local mosque for my classes.
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| | Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 11:47 pm salaama calaykum! Nuur manshalaah bro 4 reminding us satan has made a pact with alah as he said he'll make a lot of muslims go astray. ALAHUMA NAJAYNAA? aamiin. TLG sis prohet (pbuh) said whomever takes a road seeking knowlwdge(diiniyan ofcourse) alah makes easy for them the road to paradise. May alah make the road to paradise easy for us? aamiin wasalaam
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| | Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 02:26 am JB Jazaakallahu Khairan for your well intentioned correction of the use and selection of my language. I was bit worried initially as you pointed out how my words could be understood out of the contexct for which I intended, however, as I read more of your message, I was relievd to know that you participated in a Sufi dhikr session. I was relieved in the sense that I understood how you could have understood my message and yet gave me the benefit of the doubt. Thank you. The prophet Muhammad SAWS has once asked a companion " How did you wake up this morning?" The companion answered " I woke up a believer" The prophet SAWS asked" What is the proof of your faith?" The companion answered " As if I can see the dwellers of Jannah visiting each other, and as if the dwellers of Hell (blaming each other) or a close meaning to that effect. My intention in my writing was in line to this companion's expression, not to create a lie or claim supernatural powers like Sufis. The Holy Quran is a vehicle in the sense that Quraan transports us from darkness to light, Quraan explains the events of old, and sometimes it speks the past,pesent and the future in the same passage. What I intended to say was that I have lived wholeheartedly with the Quran in that period, enjoyed the reading with Tadabbur, took Quran's medicine to my heart, felt like I was there when creation took place, when Musa was addressing Pharoah, the birth of Issa, the battle of badr and Uhud and so on. I believe that the Quran is eternal, and one should dynamically involve oneself with Quran's events, stories, orders and prohibitions. Allah always addresses those with clean mindes ( ulul albaab) But with all my imagination, I remain a practical muslim, I distance myself from any inplication that I physically travelled in a time machine. Parables in the Quran are so plentiful that if you are not careful of your statements , one can also call Ibrahim Aleyhi Salaam a liar when he told his people that biggest statue god distroyed the rest of the other Statue gods that Ibrahim's father was worshipping. Hidden wisdom in discussions should not be ignored.
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| | Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 03:57 am Assalamu Alaicum, Brother Nur Thank you for the informo, I do not have a surviving grandparents, I have never met them actually. Again Both Nur nad JB I have to say I benefit from your writings may Allah reward you.
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| | Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 10:11 am Is Nur the same Nur who used to write and defend Islam so eloquently at this forums about a year so ago?
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| | Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 09:16 pm Asalaamu alaikum Nur, thanks brother for the kind words. Merci beaucoup. Ukhtifilah, thanks also sis for the hadith about seeking knowledge.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 01:24 am Anon I am new Nur on this site, say about three months or so. I found satisfaction in writing lately on Islamic topics, the more I wrote, the more I felt firmer on my beliefs, so I will be contributing more to Islamic discussions on InshaaAllah.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 01:31 am JB One other thing, You reminded me of an important aspect when I communicate my thoughts with others : How my words could be misunderstood. I shall pay more attention in the future InshAllah and think of my audience mix and write apprpriately. Your warning is well appreciated and may Allah reward you for your advise. The value of your advice is priceless.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 07:59 am Asalamu Alaykum Dear brother Nur Jazak Allah khair for your kind words. I always like to give fellow muslims the benefit of the doubt. I would also hope that others do the same for me. I would like to say that we will never reach the status of Prophet Ibramih. Having said this the example you gave about Prophet Ibrahim PBUH does not mean that He (AS) did not lie. As a matter of Fact Prophet Ibrahim lied 3 times in his life. One of then is the example you used. The scholars have talk a lot about these lies. Here are two short hadiths to illustrate this point. First one is on the day of judgement when the Ummah will go to him and ask him to intercede on their behalf the people will say, "`O Ibrahim, you are Messenger of Allah and His Khalil (the intimate friend of Allah) from among the people of the earth; so please intercede for us with your Rubb. Don't you see our (miserable) condition?' He will say to them: `Today my Rubb has become so angry as He has never been before; nor will he ever be so hereafter. I had told three lies. I am worried about myself. Go to someone else. Go to (Prophet) Musa (Moses).' Riyad-us-Saliheen The other hadith incase anyone is interested tell us what these three lies were. Its in sahih muslim "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) never told a lie but only thrice: two times for the sake of Allah (for example, his words) : "I am sick," and his words: "But it was the big one amongst them which has done that" and because of Sara (his wife). He had come in a land inhabited by haughty and cruel men along with Sara. She was very good-looking amongst the people, so he said to her: If these were to know that you are my wife they would snatch you away from me, so if they ask you tell that you are my sister and in fact you are my sister in Islam, and I do not know of any other Muslim in this land besides I and you" .......its a long hadith so i will leave you with a reference incase you interested sahih muslim(Book 30, Number 5848) I hope this helps to further clarify the importance of words and their long lasting effect on us!
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 08:10 am JB, May Allah reward you I certainly benefited from this. I will read the rest Insha Allah.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:30 am i don't believe that ibrahim was a liar. yes, hidden wisdom in discussions should not be ignored. when he told the people that biggest statue god destroyed the rest of the other statue gods people knew he was not lying and was making a point. in fact, they understood the his point. "they said: art thou the one who has done this to our gods, o ibrahim" the question from the pagan was purely formal, as ibrahim had already said in the presence of a number of people that he would do something to the idols this: "He (ibrahim) said: rather has done it: the big one of them; so question them, if they ever speak". so it is obvious that the question of lying or deceit on the part of ibrahim rises nowhere in the whole episode. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose or his feeling. in the other place where he told his wife that she was his sister, he did not tell a lie either; he explained to her that she was actually his sister in Islam. you see, ibrahim had the habit of veracity and imperishable love of truth. ibrahim never wanted to tell a lie. Allah told the prophet (muhammad) to tell who was ibrahim in order to correct the jews, the christians and anyone else's imputations to ibrahim of falsehood. Allah said ibrahim to be SADIIQAN (the truthful) in surah maryam verse 41. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet".
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 01:39 pm Anon: Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) was not a lair nor is your love for him greater then ours. He was a Messenger of Allah and His Khalil (the intimate friend of Allah). When I quote Ahadith from our beloved Messenger, Mohammed PBUH stating clearly in many narrations that Ibrahim never lied except 3 times. Who are we to say that Ibrahim never lied?? Do you say that our beloved messenger lies. I hope not and I don't think that's what you are saying. I am very aware that there are many way to interpret what ibrahim said so as to change it from being a lie. The scholars have discussed this is detail. One way to make an excuse for Prophet Ibrahim (AS) is to say that he qualified this statement by saying "Nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it. Ask them, if they can speak!" his last statement ask them if they can speak is a qualifying statement! since they cant speak, thus it should follow that the Idol did not do it. This then becomes deceitful speech. In the End the circumstances under which this happened permits Ibrahim to Say what he said. If we find ourselves in this circumstances we too may say a lie or use deceitful speech. I do not think that this discussion forums qualifies as one of these life threatening situations. Inspite of all this we find prophet ibrahim is remorseful for resorting to this type of speech! This is clear in the hadith I quoted earlier about intercession. Finally to use Ibrahim's example as proof for speaking in riddles or resorting to lies or being deceitful or using 'not factual' statements (or whatever you want to call it, the rasool called it a lie) is hardly what Ibrahim intended or what Islam encourages. Hidden wisdom is discussions does not permit what Allah has forbidden.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 02:21 pm "Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) was not a lair" that is right. "nor is your love for him greater then ours." i don't know who is "ours"; i know that i didn't say i love ibrahim more than anybody. "He was a Messenger of Allah and His Khalil (the intimate friend of Allah)." that is right and Allah does not make an intimate friend of his a lair. in fact, Allah does not love liars. "When I quote Ahadith from our beloved Messenger, Mohammed PBUH stating clearly in many narrations that Ibrahim never lied except 3 times. Who are we to say that Ibrahim never lied?? i guess the difference between you and me is that i take the Quranic sayings over any reported sayings that was claimed to have came from the prophet. the only thing that is *clearly* 100% accurate is the sayings in the Quran. "Do you say that our beloved messenger lies." both our beloved messengers (muhammad and ibrahim) never lied. "I hope not and I don't think that's what you are saying." you got that right. "I am very aware that there are many way to interpret what ibrahim said so as to change it from being a lie. The scholars have discussed this is detail. One way to make an excuse for Prophet Ibrahim (AS) is to say that he qualified this statement by saying "Nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it. Ask them, if they can speak!" his last statement ask them if they can speak is a qualifying statement! since they cant speak, thus it should follow that the Idol did not do it. This then becomes deceitful speech. In the End the circumstances under which this happened permits Ibrahim to Say what he said. If we find ourselves in this circumstances we too may say a lie or use deceitful speech." i told you that in that verse, ibrahim didn't lie. it is obvious that the question of lying or deceit on the part of ibrahim rises nowhere in the whole episode of verses. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose or his feeling. the question from the pagans was purely formal, as ibrahim had already said in the presence of a number of people that he would do something to the idols "they said: art thou (ibrahim) the one who has done this to our gods, o ibrahim" "He (ibrahim) said: rather has done it: the big one of them; so question them, if they ever speak". Allah told the prophet (muhammad) to tell who was ibrahim-------in order to correct the jews, the christians and anyone else's imputations to ibrahim of falsehood. Allah saiid ibrahim to be SADIIQAN (the truthful) in surah maryam verse 41. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". who would you trust or believe---- many interpretations in the Quran and reports from people who said the prophet said ibrahim lied or Allah Himself who said ibrahim to be SADIIQAN (the truthful)---was a man of truth? "I do not think that this discussion forums qualifies as one of these life threatening situations. Inspite of all this we find prophet ibrahim is remorseful for resorting to this type of speech! This is clear in the hadith I quoted earlier about intercession."" i will not disagree with Allah's sayings in the Quran. to do that would put me in bad situation. in the day of judgement everyone will be remorseful, including the prophet who were not sinners or lairs. "Finally to use Ibrahim's example as proof for speaking in riddles or resorting to lies or being deceitful or using 'not factual' statements (or whatever you want to call it, the rasool called it a lie) is hardly what Ibrahim intended or what Islam encourages." again, the difference between you and me is that when it comes to sayings from what people said came from the prophet and the sayings in the Quran, i'll take the sayings in the Quran any day. "Hidden wisdom is discussions does not permit what Allah has forbidden." again, i believe what Allah said to the prophet to say: "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". this is not hidden wisdom and it is clearly the sayings of Allah--- that ibrahim was no liar. it tells me that ibrahim was a man of truth.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 02:57 pm "And assuredly We gave rectitude to Ibrahim aforetime, and him We had ever KNOWN (to be worthy of it). Recall when he said to his father (who was a manufacturer of idols and had them for sale) and his people: what are these images which you are cleaving to (as objects of adoratioin and worship). They said: we found our fthers their worshippers (and we have only followed their examples). He said: assuredly you, you and your fathers, have been in error manifest. They said: hast thou come to us in seriousness, or art thou among those who sport (so unaccustomed to, and so unfamiliar with, the doctriine of monothesim were they). He said: Aye! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Who created them; and of that I am among the witnesses. AND BY ALLAH, I'M SURELY GOING TO DEVISE A PLOT AGAINST YOUR IDOLS (so that you may more plainly be convinced of your folly in worshipping them) AFTER YOU HAVE TURNED YOUR BACKS (and have left the temple). They said: who has done this to our gods? surely he is of the eveil-doers (a blasphemer; a man of great impiety, in their thinking). They said among themselves: we heard a YOUTH, CALLED IBRAHIM SPEAK (reproachfully) OF THEM (idols) WITH DISRESPECT. They said: bring him (ibrahim) then before the eyes of the people (in the public veiw, so that he might confess), haply they may bear witness (against him on the strenth of that confession--the idols). "they said: art thou the one who has done this to our gods, o ibrahim" the question from the pagan was purely formal, as ibrahim had already said in the presence of a number of people that he would do something to the idols this: "He (ibrahim) said: rather has done it: the big one of them; so question them, if they ever speak" so, as i said, it is obvious that the question of lying or deceit on the part of ibrahim rises nowhere in the whole episode. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose or his feeling. therefore, he did not tell a lie.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 05:45 pm Anon: "I guess the difference between you and me is that I take the Quranic sayings over any reported sayings that was claimed to have came from the prophet. the only thing that is *clearly* 100% accurate is the sayings in the Quran. " You would have saved me some time if you had stated on the onset that you don't believe in the Ahadith of our beloved prophet (even if they are authentic as the ones I've quoted) I would also like to Tell you that there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Ahadith (I've quoted). Perhaps you don't know what contradiction means. It is clear for all Muslims to see and this is way our brother Nur mentioned the whole episode in the place. Incase you forget the question asked Ibrahim was, here are three translations, for you YUSUFALI: They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?" PICKTHAL: They said: Is it thou who hast done this to our gods, O Abraham? SHAKIR: They said: Have you done this to our gods, O Ibrahim? Ibrahims answers! 021.063 YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!" PICKTHAL: He said: But this, their chief hath done it. So question them, if they can speak. SHAKIR: He said: Surely (some doer) has done it; the chief of them is this, therefore ask them, if they can speak The fact that Ibrahim (AS) told a few people before the incident does not mean that he(AS) was not misleading in his speech. can you show me that the prophet words contradicted the qurans. I true difference between you and me is that I will take the noble hadith of our beloved Rasool over what you or any other human being says: Incase you are not familiar with what a liar is there is a hadith that defines it. Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Paradise. And a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person. Falsehood leads to Al-Fajur (I.e. wickedness, evil-doing), and Al-Fajur (wickedness) leads to the (Hell) Fire, and a man may keep on telling lies till he is written before Allah, a liar." (bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 116 So before calling a person a liar they have to keep on lying! The Hadith of the rasool does not say this about Ibrahim! Im sure that you do not believe in this hadith either but I quote it for the benefit of other Muslims Reading. Ibrahim PBUH WAS NOT A LIAR!!! Once again I will take the reported saying of Mohammed PBUH Over your saying/reasoning. No offense intended I wonder How you pray or fast properly or give proper Zakah or even Hajj without the hadith of the Rasool? Do you accept the hadith that pleases you only? Or do you judge them and decide if the hadith contradicts the quran on you own! Allah Is to kind to leave us at your mercy/intellect. Do you reject them all? Without the science of hadith we would be left at your mercy. I will settle for the science of hadith over your intellect.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 07:05 pm "You would have saved me some time if you had stated on the onset that you don't believe in the Ahadith of our beloved prophet (even if they are authentic as the ones I've quoted)" yes, that is if i would have said that. "I would also like to Tell you that there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Ahadith (I've quoted)." we have two statements here: 1- one statment is in the Quran which i'm sure to be 100% what Allah said and correct-----that ibrahim was a man of truth. 2-one statment is in the hadeeth you qouted which i'm not sure 100% to be correct of what the people said the prophet said----that ibrahim did lie. "Perhaps you don't know what contradiction means." perhaps these those statements are the same to you: ibrahim was a man of truth ibrahim Vs ibrahim told a lie. "It is clear for all Muslims to see and this is way our brother Nur mentioned the whole episode in the place." lol----->for all muslims ;-) "The fact that Ibrahim (AS) told a few people before the incident does not mean that he(AS) was not misleading in his speech." unlike you, i believe that ibrahim (as all prophets of Allah) did not preach islam in a *misleading* way. "can you show me that the prophet words contradicted the qurans." i know that the prophet did not contradict the Quran, but i know that you are contradicting the Quran by saying ibrahim employed *misleading* speech-----while he was preaching islam. "I true difference between you and me is that I will take the noble hadith of our beloved Rasool over what you or any other human being says" that is nice and i will take the Nobel Quran over anything----even over the noble hadeeth. "So before calling a person a liar they have to keep on lying! The Hadith of the rasool does not say this about Ibrahim!" yes, i believe that the prophet never believed that prophet ibrahim was not a man of truth. "Im sure that you do not believe in this hadith either but I quote it for the benefit of other Muslims Reading. Ibrahim PBUH WAS NOT A LIAR!!!" yes, ibrahim was not a liar. "Once again I will take the reported saying of Mohammed PBUH Over your saying/reasoning." that is nice and i will take the Quranic saying over any reported sayings-----authentic or not authentic. "No offense intended" that is nice of you. "I wonder How you pray or fast properly or give proper Zakah or even Hajj without the hadith of the Rasool?" maybe you can tell me how you pray and then i'll tell you how i pray. that way, i would know if you have hadeeth that says ibrahim lied while praying, fasting, making hajj and while paying sakah-----that was reported. "Do you accept the hadith that pleases you only? yes. i accept Quran and hadeeth that do not contradict. "Or do you judge them and decide if the hadith contradicts the quran on you own! Allah Is to kind to leave us at your mercy/intellect."" yes, Allah is Kind and Merciful and His sayings in the Quran are 100% correct. if the hadeeth says ibrahim lied and the Quran says ibrahim was a man of truth, i will decide to accept the Quranic sayings.
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| | Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:08 pm This will Be my last email on this topic (insha Allah) we seem to be going in circles. Since you asked me how i prayed. I pray according to the authentic sunnah. What our great scholar from the past have declared as authentic based on isnad and other criterion is sufficient for me. I asked you that question because you have a problem with hadith from bukhari and muslim! without these hadith and its noble science our salah is not perfect. Alhamdulilah Most somalis and muslims accept the authentic hadiths. It is clear that you have associated a man of truth with a man who has never lied in his life. This claim is not true. I cannot ask you to prove your claim because you do not believe in hadith. You may use your logic which is not proof for me or in islam. I would like to tell All muslim that they can also be among the truthful even if they have lied in the past. Ask Allah his forgiveness and as the earlier hadith states, "And a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person" If we listen to Anon reasoning a truthful person can not have lied under any circumstances Anon, what do you say about Adam's (PBUH) disobedience of Allah? Do you also deny that? or Musa's killing a Man? If i was to follow your logic (i seek refuge in Allah) We would call Adam (AS) disobedient and Musa (AS) a killer! No but inspite of your logic they were the best of people. Also i would appreciate if you do respond to this post please respond to my message as whole and don't respond but cutting it in the middle of the paragraph. Its called taking a statement out of context. I have read other responses you've made to others and you imply the same manner. It is intellectual dishonesty at the very least. PS where do you get you definition for truth? The quran please give me a references for this....please don't tell my 'the right hemisphere of my cerebrum' will not do!
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 01:04 am Asalaamu caleykum. ANON: Sometimes, you have to think about what others would read from your messages. I remember once we had a difference privately, you told me that you would take BUKHARI'S transmission any day over IBNU KATHIIRI'S tafsiir if he differed Bukhari. The above hadith is narrated by both Bukhari and Muslim. They aren't saying anything different. Islam teaches that one can do the forbidden in times of fear of death. YOU ARE RUNNING FROM YOUR SHADOW. Walaal, sometimes you need not argue for the sake of yourself and for the sake of other readers. I give you an example of what less educated or evil person can read from what you said: You said: "You wouldn't accept hadith if it contradicts the Quran". without understanding the difference between authentic and non-authentic hadith, One might think that there is hadith which contradicts the Quran. You seriously think that there is an authentic hadith that contradicts the Quran?. The hadith that tells us Abraham lied three times two for the sake of Allah is narrated by both BUKHARI AND MUSLIM. And no scholar said anything other than what the prophet had said. Many deviated sects in islam were lost because they weren't accepting the facts as they are. Some of them even rejected the verses that teach Allah has hands, a face, leg, can hear, can see etc. In their mind, believing that, would amount to imperfection since creatures share the same aspects with god they said. I hope you take a wiser decision and don't continue this argument. YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR THINKING AS I GUESS. You have to learn to keep quite from what you don't understand and seek the knowledge of it. I don't like picking arguments with you because I have seen people calling you names and sometimes calling you a disbeliever. I don't like being a conduit for them. THIS TIME, I GUESS YOUR SILENCE IS REQUIRED OVER THIS MATTER.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 01:14 am JB and ANON Maa ShaaAllah, I thank Allah subhaanahu wa tacaalaa to have provided such detailed knowledge on Islam for the two of you. I must say that waht you two have is the same goal, different paths. Hear this amusing story: A group of Sunni and Shia Scholars tried to resolve the age old dispute that separated Sunni from Shia, they agreed to meet in a mosque and the set a date. Once the delegates arrived, the shia delegates coming first, and then followed by the Sunni delegates. A sunni delegates upon entering the mosques placed his shoes on top of the shia delegate which caught the attention and anger of the Shia delegate. " why are you placing your shoes on top of our shoes, said the shia delegate" the Sunni delegate responded " because Shia people used to steal shoes during time of prophet Muhammad SAWS and thus they are inferior" The Shia delegate responded " you are a liar, there was no shia during the time of Prophet muhammad SAWS" The Sunni scholar then questioned " Why are we hear then?" From this story whose authenticity I have no proof, we can deduse the following: What differentiates murder from manslaughter? Isn't it the intention? NIA Like wise, a lie as understood by the common man as a sinful act is differentiated from Tuqya, which was what Ibrahim Alayhi Salaam said and the Sunni Scholar on top has said was to STOP A BIGGER LIE, That there are GODS BESIDE ALLAH. And the fact that Shia was a bida ( Innovation that has no approval from Prophet Muhammad SAWS) Looking from the point of view of JB, I agree that once a hadith is reported, and it is Sahiih, we must not hesitate to accept it wholly, if reasoning alone was the basis of our faith, we should have performed " masxul khuffain" the rubbing of shoes during wuduu at the bottom of the shoe not the sides and top as is done according to hadith. What remains to be clarified here is mapping of the hadith to the Quraan. Scholars always find a concordance between Hadith and Quran, and when reasoning and Quraan or hadith seem to diverge, we find their hidden point of connection, This is A topic that Sheikh Ibn Taymiah has written extensively in his famous book " Dar u Ta caarudh al Caql wal Naql, 4 volume" which is sure to put this intersting discussion in the right direction. Short of that, let us agree on some fundemental usuul. 1. Etiquette of discussing prophets of Allah should be more respectful than how we talk about other muslims, even if our beloved Muhamed SAWS has said, or Allah has said, it is not befitting us to demean a prophet in no way even unintentionally. Allah in suuratul Mujaadalah has ordered Muslims not to call the prophet in the same manner in which we call each other, in order that our deeds may not be forefited without our knowledge and intention. 2. The principle of Towhweed guided all prophet Ibrahim's life. He began as young man to seek Allah He saw a star and said " this is my God" when it went down, he said " I do not like those who go down".....until he came to the conclusion : " I have pointed my face to Allah ( I have unified all my search and I found it all in Allah) Here the moral of this episode is that Ibrahim reached his goal, one stop shop for all his needs, he thus became the first imam and was called in quraan " Ibraahim who fulfilled ". I am sure that both JB and ANON are genuinely sincere in this discussion, but it is important that each one of you be kind in your words to the other by looking this issue from the opposing view, and more likely we can all learn from each other. I did benefit a lot from JB and I made dua for JB, may Allah bless JB and ANON. I plan to launch a new page that I would like your company as I have learned a lot from both of you. There is a saying, "if two people agree on everything, one of them is not necessary". The topic will be the LOVE OF ALLAH subhanahu wa taalaa
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 03:14 am Jazzaak Kul kheer brother Nur. Maa-shaa-allah brother FG, may Allah increase your wisdom and protect you against the whispers of the Satan. Jazak Allah kul kheer brother JB maa-sha-alllah. But i just wanted to clear one simple thing from you, i believe Musa(may Allah be pleased with him)didn't kill a man, i think you are confused with nabi Khadir who killed the child and Musa was his companion in that trip. Brother Anon, may Allah increase your wisdom, but i believe you will be on fault if you claim that you wouldn't accept the teachings of our beloved prophet. By that you will be a DISBELIEVER. However, no one can deny you to pursue truth of whether a certain hadith is authentic if you have any doubts in it. I believe this ummah is plagued with practising many things i consider them as BIDA...how true..islam came as a stranger n will return as a stranger. Jazaakuma Allah you FOUR...kul kheer and I pray that you enjoy Allah wisdom on our short journey and HIS fardus in the thereafter, allahuma..amiin.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:03 am Idea I appreciate your comment, but: Musa alayhi Al salaam did kill an egyptian when he came to aid a fellow hebrew who was fighting with the Egyptian, it is recorded in Quran, please refer. He came close in killing another one the next day, but he fled. Musa admits to Allah that he killed a man who was a subject of Firoun, for that fear he hesitated to accept the responsibility of being a messenger. This incidence happened before his appointment as a messenger of allah.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:04 am Idea. Sis, yes, Our prophet Moses killed a man accidentally when he didn't mean to. Read suratul AL-QASAS. 28:15. And he entered the City at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own people, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own people appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: "This is a work of Satan: for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!" 16. He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 17. He said: "O my Lord! For that You have bestowed your Grace on me, never shall I be a help to those who sin!" As you can see, Moses regretted the accident since he didn't intend to kill the man but to help the weaker of the two. Allah also forgave him after he repented to him for Allah is Ooft-forgiving and most merciful. You are also right, there was another occasion inwchich a child was killed, it is in Suratul Kahf if I am not wrong and it wasn't moses caleyhi salaam. Hope that helps. Although the Question wasn't addressed to me, I think JB wouldn't mind.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:23 am Thanks
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:08 am "Since you asked me how i prayed. I pray according to the authentic sunnah. What our great scholar from the past have declared as authentic based on isnad and other criterion is sufficient for me." that is nice, but i'm sure the way you pray and the way other muslims pray have differences----according to different hadeeths------different madhabs have different ways that they pray and all have authentic hadeeths to based on---isnad and other different criterion. each one has what is sufficient for him or her. "I asked you that question because you have a problem with hadith from bukhari and muslim!" if albukari and muslim say that ibrahim lied and Allah is saying ibrahim was a man of truth.......i take Allah's words any day, because i'm not 100% sure that albukari and muslim reported the truth while i'm 100% sure that what is in the Quran is always the truth. "without these hadith and its noble science our salah is not perfect." yes, and muslims in different madhabis follow the noble science in the way of prayers. "Alhamdulilah Most somalis and muslims accept the authentic hadiths." do the most somalis and muslims accept that ibrahim was a liar? "It is clear that you have associated a man of truth with a man who has never lied in his life." the clear things i'm pointing out is that i disassociated a man of truth from a man who has lied in his life. unlike you, i believe ibrahim (like muhammad) *never* lied in his life. "This claim is not true." i told you that i will not disagree with Allah's sayings in the Quran. to do that would put me in a bad situation. Allah said ibrahim to be SADIIQAN (the truthful) in surah maryam verse 41. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". again, who would you trust or believe---- many interpretations in the Quran and reports from people who said the prophet said ibrahim lied or Allah Himself who said ibrahim to be SADIIQAN (the truthful)---was a man of truth? "I cannot ask you to prove your claim because you do not believe in hadith." yes, i have the Quran-----that says ibrahim was truthful. yes, i do not believe a hadeeth that says ibrahim was a lair. "You may use your logic which is not proof for me or in islam." is the Quran not proof enough for you? "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". "I would like to tell All muslim that they can also be among the truthful even if they have lied in the past. Ask Allah his forgiveness and as the earlier hadith states, "And a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person" If we listen to Anon reasoning a truthful person can not have lied under any circumstances" maybe you do not know that those who lied in the past did commit sin, right? you see, to lie is to sin and prophet ibrahim (as prophet muhammad) never did sin----the prophet muhammad and ibrahim were always truthful and Allah is witness. they had always the habit of veracity and had the imperishable love of truth. Allah said ibrahim was SADIIQAN (the truthful) in surah maryam verse 41. in arabic, SADIIQAN is the intensive form of SADUQ "the truthful". the epithet is brought to correct the jews, the christians and anyone else's imputations to ibrahim of falsehood----to have lied. ibrahim never wanted to tell a lie and never did tell a lie. Allah told the prophet (muhammad) to tell who was really ibrahim "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet".
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:24 am "Anon, what do you say about Adam's (PBUH) disobedience of Allah?" Do you also deny that? or Musa's killing a Man? If i was to follow your logic (i seek refuge in Allah) We would call Adam (AS) disobedient and Musa (AS) a killer! No but inspite of your logic they were the best of people." fyi, both adam and musa were not prophets of Allah when they erred. musa never inteded to kill the guy. prophets do not tell a lie; Allah protects them. "Also i would appreciate if you do respond to this post please respond to my message as whole and don't respond but cutting it in the middle of the paragraph. Its called taking a statement out of context. " well, i'm sorry i do not want to do your request, because i'm not taking things out of context....i'm not putting words into your mouth. "I have read other responses you've made to others and you imply the same manner. It is intellectual dishonesty at the very least." i wish you showed me where i did (before and now) imply things you didn't say. i'm sure throwing accusations will not help your case. "PS where do you get you definition for truth? in the Quran "The quran please give me a references for this....please don't tell my 'the right hemisphere of my cerebrum' will not do!" in arabic, SADIIQAN is the intensive form of SADUQ "the truthful". again, Allah told the truth and told the prophet (muhammad) to tell who was really ibrahim "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet".
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:53 am "ANON: Sometimes, you have to think about what others would read from your messages." lol-----you have to think. ;-) "I remember once we had a difference privately, you told me that you would take BUKHARI'S transmission any day over IBNU KATHIIRI'S tafsiir if he differed Bukhari." yes "The above hadith is narrated by both Bukhari and Muslim." yes, and as i mention before if albukari and muslim say that ibrahim lied and Allah is saying ibrahim was a man of truth.......i take Allah's words any day, because i'm not 100% sure that albukari and muslim reported the truth while i'm 100% sure that what is in the Quran is always the truth. "They aren't saying anything different." maybe like jb, you also think these statements are the same to you: ibrahim was a man of truth Vs ibrahim told a lie. do you think ibrahim was fearing when they questioned him? ;-) again, it is obvious that the question of lying or deceit on the part of ibrahim rises nowhere in the whole episode. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose or his feeling. therefore, he did not tell a lie. "Islam teaches that one can do the forbidden in times of fear of death." do you think ibrahim was fearing for his life when they questioned him? it is obvious that the question of lying or deceit or fear on the part of ibrahim rises nowhere in the whole episode. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose or his feeling. therefore, he did not tell a lie. "YOU ARE RUNNING FROM YOUR SHADOW." lol "Walaal, sometimes you need not argue for the sake of yourself and for the sake of other readers." that is funny. ;-) "I give you an example of what less educated or evil person can read from what you said: You said: "You wouldn't accept hadith if it contradicts the Quran". without understanding the difference between authentic and non-authentic hadith, One might think that there is hadith which contradicts the Quran. You seriously think that there is an authentic hadith that contradicts the Quran? The hadith that tells us Abraham lied three times two for the sake of Allah is narrated by both BUKHARI AND MUSLIM. And no scholar said anything other than what the prophet had said. Many deviated sects in islam were lost because they weren't accepting the facts as they are." again, maybe you think these statements are the same and do not contradict: ibrahim was a man of truth Vs ibrahim told a lie. the fact is that many people prefer the hadeeth over the Quran. "Some of them even rejected the verses that teach Allah has hands, a face, leg, can hear, can see etc. In their mind, believing that, would amount to imperfection since creatures share the same aspects with god they said." i would not even imagine Allah having kind of hands, the face, the legs, the ears and the eyes we have. "I hope you take a wiser decision and don't continue this argument. YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR THINKING AS I GUESS." yes, it is just your guess----you do not know for sure that i'm wrong or right. "You have to learn to keep quite from what you don't understand and seek the knowledge of it." lol------you have to learn t keep quite. "I don't like picking arguments with you because I have seen people calling you names and sometimes calling you a disbeliever." do you think i care who picks on me and who calls me what names? "I don't like being a conduit for them. THIS TIME, I GUESS YOUR SILENCE IS REQUIRED OVER THIS MATTER." LOL
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:03 am "i believe you will be on fault if you claim that you wouldn't accept the teachings of our beloved prophet." if i claim, yes. "By that you will be a DISBELIEVER." saying ibrahim was not a lair does not make me a DISBELIEVER. "However, no one can deny you to pursue truth of whether a certain hadith is authentic if you have any doubts in it." i don't have doubt about what Allah said in the Quran------that ibrahim was a man of truth.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:31 am Brother Anon.(I knew you had a sense of humour). I understand your point. I am not ignoring the fact that the prophets of God are the best in character and personality. I don't think a muslim would rejoice in attributing imperfections to any prophet of god or a messenger. There is no need to pick up a fight on this one. You are right in your pursuit of perfection for the prophets of god and no one is saying they aren't. The only misunderstanding I see is about the hadiths narrated both by BUKHARI and Muslim. I take them as they are and understand them based on the tafsiir of the prophet and sahabah and the scholars of ahlu sunnah. There was a reason Abaraham said what he said. TO save himself and prove a point. So what is the ARGUMENT?. I see none at all. As none can go only with the Quran, there is also none who can go alone with the Hadith. Hadiths are the wisdom provided to the messenger to explain the religion of Allah. You know that point better than I do. I have seen you use that line of logic in debates with those who reject Ahadith before. You need to cool down and come off from the high horse SAXIB. Hopefully JB will make a wise a decision and don't continue this argument anymore. It is fruitless. The same proplem you are running from, which is the attribution of imperfection to the messengers and prophets WILL HAPPEN TO THE AHADITH IF YOU KEEP ARGUING IN YOUR TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING OF THIS MATTER. It is for you to choose what you think is best to happen. Remember, whoever pioneers a way either bad or good shares the responsibility with the followers of that pioneered path. You don't want tommorrow someone saying that ANON said this or that. I am telling you, you have to watch what you say. Even if you think you are right in this one, you can also abondon continuing the argument once you proved your point.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:51 am Jazak Allah Khair, For all your advice, I apologize if I unintentionally offended anyone in this discussion especially Anon:
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:26 am "There was a reason Abaraham said what he said. TO save himself and prove a point. So what is the ARGUMENT?. I see none at all." again, there was no FEAR, lying, or deceit on the part of ibrahim that rises in the whole episode. ibrahim never intended to deceive, nor did he make a secret of his purpose to show a plot (a plan) that will make a point in his preaching-----he was not AFFRAID to show his feeling. therefore, he did not tell a lie. "As none can go only with the Quran, there is also none who can go alone with the Hadith." again, the Quran is first and comes before anything. "Hadiths are the wisdom provided to the messenger to explain the religion of Allah. You know that point better than I do. I have seen you use that line of logic in debates with those who reject Ahadith before." i have never used a hadeeth sayings that says one thing and the Quranic sayings that says another--- in order tto prove a point. ibrahim was not a liar and the Quran proves that and anything that says different i would not accept. "You need to cool down and come off from the high horse SAXIB." lol. i do not feel hot and i wish i was on a horse. "The same proplem you are running from, which is the attribution of imperfection to the messengers and prophets WILL HAPPEN TO THE AHADITH IF YOU KEEP ARGUING IN YOUR TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING OF THIS MATTER." i dont' even concern what the hadeeth says. i have the Quran that says ibrahim was truthful. you are the one argueing for the hadeeth. i'm pointing the what is in the Quran-----which is sure to be 100% the truth------nothing else is. "It is for you to choose what you think is best to happen. Remember, whoever pioneers a way either bad or good shares the responsibility with the followers of that pioneered path." yes, i will choose the Quran over anything any day and whoever disagrees with what the Quran says will be responsible for his or her actions. "You don't want tommorrow someone saying that ANON said this or that." as long as i do not disagree what the Quran says, i dont' care what others think or might say. the Quran is my witness. "I am telling you, you have to watch what you say." and you do the same. "Even if you think you are right in this one, you can also abondon continuing the argument once you proved your point." if you do the same. "I apologize if I unintentionally offended anyone in this discussion especially Anon" i dont' think you did.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 09:14 am Is Anon and Ahmed the submitter one and the same person???
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 09:23 am observer----your observation is clouded with suspicious------DANA.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:00 am Anon, Ahmed -the submitter was the only person I recall who was rejecting hadeeths at this forums. Reading your opinions about hadeeths, makes me wonder if you and him are the same person? You didn't answer the question. What do you mean by DANA?
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:11 am Observer. No he isn't walaal. ANON. I told you assumptions like that will fly around. You never listen to me. If it doesn't bother you that your Iman will be suspected, GO FOR the arguments. ASIDE: I have seen in the Quran prophets feeling afraid. In fact Abraham felt fear when the angels who were supposed to punish the homsexuals passed by his district as guests. "11:69. There came Our Messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf." 70. But when he saw their hands not reaching towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lüt." Prophets and messengers were part of the human society ASAD. They used to experience the same natural feelings humans experienced. IT WAS PART OF THE WISDOM to select the messengers from the human beings themselves. If the earth was settled by Angels, Allah would have sent only an angel to them. "17.94. What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger." 95. Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger." When we told you the Hadith, it doesn't mean we lower the character of a prophet but it is your understanding of the hadith that isn't perfect. Saxib, you should try understanding things from other's point of view as well. There is no sacred opinion here apart from the teachings of Allah and his messenger. Have you also read Moses being afraid to go to pharoah because he killed one them by accident?. It is natural. One reason followers believed in their prophets is the question of "How an ardinary man can have such knowledge?. How can an ordinary man be so eloquent in message?." It is those kinds of questions that led many to follow the prophets and messnegers alike. Saxib, take into consideration what others might think about your messages. Unless someone is willing to see your point of view it would be difficult to maintain sinless discussion here.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:44 am "Reading your opinions about hadeeths, makes me wonder if you and him are the same person? You didn't answer the question." i told you that you are just wondering and carrying suspicious. "What do you mean by DANA?" suspicious. if you know hadeeth and the Quran.....you would know the danger in DANA.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:59 am FG, thanks for clarifying that the two Anon and the submitter are not one and the same. Anon, you got issues. You are the one who is behaving supiciously by combing through people's writing word for word. Copying and pasting quotes! If you don't want to share what you know (i.e my request to explain what DANA means fine) but know that your arrognace is a turn off! Don't bother replying to this post , because I will not lend you the courtesy of a response. Adios.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 11:17 am "I told you assumptions like that will fly around. You never listen to me. If it doesn't bother you that your Iman will be suspected, GO FOR the arguments." i told you that as long as i do not disagree what the Quran says, i dont' care what others think or might say. "I have seen in the Quran prophets feeling afraid." ibrahim was not afraid when he distroyed the idols and when they questioned him. "Prophets and messengers were part of the human society ASAD. They used to experience the same natural feelings humans experienced." " but they do not lie when they are preaching islam. lying and preaching do not mix. prophet do not employ end justifies the means kind of preaching. they always tell the truth even if it hurts. would ibrahim argue and preach islam to those pagans if he was afraid. did he think they will puy when he said the big one did it? they knew the point he made was part of his preaching to show them the truth. they knew idols do not talk. ;-) "When we told you the Hadith, it doesn't mean we lower the character of a prophet but it is your understanding of the hadith that isn't perfect. Saxib, you should try understanding things from other's point of view as well. There is no sacred opinion here apart from the teachings of Allah and his messenger." yes, there is no secret. Allah is clear in His saying. i d not pay the understanding---ibrahim was a lair, but he was truthful. "Have you also read Moses being afraid to go to pharoah because he killed one them by accident? It is natural." yes, but it is not natural for a propeht to lie. "Saxib, take into consideration what others might think about your messages. Unless someone is willing to see your point of view it would be difficult to maintain sinless discussion here." if it does not make sense to them......i don't care. i can not force any one.
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 11:24 am "Anon, you got issues." and you didn't? anon=ahmad ;-) "You are the one who is behaving supiciously by combing through people's writing word for word. Copying and pasting quotes!" if i was susicious, i would not show what people write. "If you don't want to share what you know (i.e my request to explain what DANA means fine) but know that your arrognace is a turn off!" i told you the meaning of DANA, but it is just that you refused to see it for some reason----maybe suspicious feeling makes you feel that i'm arrognat. ;-) "Don't bother replying to this post , because I will not lend you the courtesy of a response." lol
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 01:32 pm I think Anon means to say al_thanna or dhana It means conjecture or to Guess Look at surah Najm verse 23 and 27. I think we give Anon too much time. I honestly advise all decent muslims to ignore him. Seriously i've read all these messeges and im surpised at how stuck up this person is. Allah tells us in The Qur'an 4:65, {But nay, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge of what is in dispute between them, then they shall find in themselves no dislike of that which you have decreed, and submit in full submission.} Anon will not take the authentic sunnah as a judge. So what is the point of discussing with him??. His opinion, interpretation and his desires are more vaulable to him. (incase you'll are waiting for anon response....it will be something like this. 'I will take what the quran say over what they say that the messenger is reported to have said anyday!). He forgets that the they in this case are our great scholars like imam makil and imam shafi and the rest of our great scholar. (mind you folks Anon is not one of these great scholars and maybe he thinks he is better than them). He forgets that he is giving himself the ulitmate authority to accept and reject based on his understanding. If you ask two people there opinion on wether a hadith contradict what he thinks the quran is say, you may very well get two answers. We've seen him reject over and over again so why do you all bother with him. The only people who try and seperate Muslims from what is found in the sunnah are the deviant sects and enemies of Allah! So please pay no attention to what he Anon say. Allahs "Whatever the Messenger giveth you take it and whatever he forbiddeth abstain from it." [Al-Hashr: 7] and "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger." [An-Nisa 59] Anon would add to this and my opinion Here is an article that talks about Anon sickness It is a matter of regret that according to the intepretation found in theworks of some commentators and modern authors, that it is permissible todo what is stated in the last two examples. ["In the fourth example, if not for the hadeeths, some of which have been mentioned, we would have considered lawful what Allah has made unlawful through the dictum of the holy Prophet (sallaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) like predatory animals, and the birds which have claws. And so is the fifth example, if not for the hadeeths, in regard to this question, we would have considered lawful what Allah has prohibited through the words of His Prophet (sallaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) like gold and silk. Consumption of the predatory animals, and the wearing of gold and silk by referring their interpretation only to The Qur'an. Today, a sect exists, called "Quranites" who comment according to their whims and fancies; without seeking the explanation of the authentic Sunnah. They only accept and follow the Sunnah which suit their desires, the rest they throw behind. The Prophet salaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam is reported to have said that: "None of you reclines on his bed, the order comes to him on an affair which I am commanded to do or not to do, he says: 'I do not know, what is found in the Book of Allah, we follow." (Tirmithi). According to another report: "What is found in The Book of Allah as 'Haram' we pronounce it 'haram' (forbidden). Surely, I am given The Qur'an and its example with it.' Yet, according to another report: "What the Messanger of Allah has forbidden, Allah has prohibited it." It is a matter of regret that one renowned scholar has written a book on Islamic Law and its dogma, and in its preface, he says that he has written it and that he has made reference only to the Qur'an. This true hadith gives positive evidence that the divine law of Islam - As-Shariah - is not mere Qur'an, but Qur'an and Sunnah. Therefore, whoever hold fast ton one source for reference to the exclusion of the other, he held fast to none of them, since both complement each other. The Qur'an says "Whoever obeys the Messanger, obeys Allah". Allah says: "No, by your Lord, they do not believe until they submit to your adjudication in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit." (4:65) Again, Allah says: "When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messanger, it does not behove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messanger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36) Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." 59:7 In connection with this verse, I am marveled by what is corroborated by Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) that is, a woman came to him and told him: "You who says: May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat [a woman who plucks hers or others eye-brows - to be a thin line - to seek beauty. Such an act is fobidden. It is a mean to change the form of Allah's creation] and Al-Motanamisat [a woman who asks others to do it for her] and those who tatoo." He said: "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah (Al-Qur'an) from its beginning to its end, I did not find what you have said." He told her: "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messanger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." She said: "Certainly". He said: "I have heard the Messanger of Allah (salaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) says: "May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat." (Bukhari & Muslim)
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 03:01 pm "I think we give Anon too much time." who are the *we*-----Observer 1 and 2? ;-) "I honestly advise all decent muslims to ignore him." i don't think you will take your own advice, observer. if i were a betting man, i'll bet you will come back using another name. "Seriously i've read all these messeges and im surpised at how stuck up this person is." is this one of your observervations---al_thanna or dhana talking? ;-) "Allah tells us in The Qur'an 4:65, {But nay, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge of what is in dispute between them, then they shall find in themselves no dislike of that which you have decreed, and submit in full submission.}" i don't think the Quran and the prophet disagree. "Anon will not take the autheintic sunnah as a judge." i will instead take the Quran over anything when there is differences. ibrahim was a lair Vs ibrahim was a man of truth "So what is the point of discussing with him??" you tell me "His opinion, interpretation and his desires are more vaulable to him." and your al_thanna or dhana is more vaulable to you, right? "incase you'll are waiting for anon response....it will be something like this. 'I will take what the quran say over what they say that the messenger is reported to have said anyday!)." this time, you suspected correctly. ;-) "He forgets that the they in this case are our great scholars like imam makil and imam shafi and the rest of our great scholar." did they disagree the Quranic sayings-----that ibrahim was a man of truth? "mind you folks Anon is not one of these great scholars and maybe he thinks he is better than them)." is this one your al_thanna or dhana? ;-) "He forgets that he is giving himself the ulitmate authority to accept and reject based on his understanding." i understand the Quranic sayings-----that ibrahim was a man of truth. i don't believe ibrahim was a lair. ;-) "If you ask two people there opinion on wether a hadith contradict what he thinks the quran is say, you may very well get two answers." lol "We've seen him reject over and over again so why do you all bother with him." you tell me. "The only people who try and seperate Muslims from what is found in the sunnah are the deviant sects and enemies of Allah!" is this one of your al_thanna or dhana? ;-) "So please pay no attention to what he Anon say. Allahs "Whatever the Messenger giveth you take it and whatever he forbiddeth abstain from it." [Al-Hashr: 7] and "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger." [An-Nisa 59]" i don't believe the prophet disagreed with the Quran and i take the Quran over anything. "Anon would add to this and my opinion" lol "Here is an article that talks about Anon sickness" lol-------anon sickness. ;-) "It is a matter of regret that according to the intepretation found in theworks of some commentators and modern authors, that it is permissible todo what is stated in the last two examples. ["In the fourth example, if not for the hadeeths, some of which have been mentioned, we would have considered lawful what Allah has made unlawful through the dictum of the holy Prophet (sallaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) like predatory animals, and the birds which have claws." Allah said ibrahim was a man of truth and the prophet recited that verse. i don't think the prophet disagree what he recited. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:47 pm To: FG Asalaamu alaykum al akh. Are you Mr. Faal-gurey or Faalka xaagiga!??????
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 01:38 am MOWLIID. No. The initials stand for formerguest not Faalgurey. observer2/observer/others. Let ANON have the last word. He knows he is wrong but can't break his rule of "I MUST HAVE THE LAST WORD WHATEVER IT TAKES". Too bad he is in serious risk by playing with fire here. He used to be the opposite side of those who deny Ahadith. I guess he is affected by them. May be, to win this argument, he has to use the argument of his former foes.
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 02:43 am lol @ FG
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 05:14 am "Let ANON have the last word." lol "He knows he is wrong" lol--->he knows. ;-) "but can't break his rule of "I MUST HAVE THE LAST WORD WHATEVER IT TAKES"." lol---->his rule. ;-) "Too bad he is in serious risk by playing with fire here." lol "He used to be the opposite side of those who deny Ahadith." lol--->used to be. ;-) "I guess he is affected by them. May be, to win this argument, he has to use the argument of his former foes." lol. saying i'm a someone else----who is one of the enemies of Allah---in one of deviant sects and or i'm affected by them is not going to help you and make you winners---guys. ;-) the fact is that if *denying* a hadeeth saying that ibrahim was a lair---the opposite of what the Quran says---is going to make me a *deviant and an enemy of Allah", then *denying* what the Quran says that ibrahim was a man of truth-----is going to make others the *deviants and enemies of Allah*, right? ;-) again, we have two statements here that say different things: one is in the Quran and one is in the hadeeth: 1- one statment is in the Quran which i'm sure it to be 100% what Allah said and correct-----that ibrahim was a man of truth. 2-one statment is in the hadeeth you qouted which i'm not sure it to be 100% correct of what the people said the prophet said----that ibrahim did lie. ------------------ibrahim was a lair Vs ibrahim was a man of truth-------------------
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 01:19 pm "lol @ FG" idea----since fg said i can't break my rule, and since you lol at what fg said about me, i thought i do the honors here. you know that Allah said to muhammad to say this: "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". however, do you know that the fallacy of "The End Justifies the Means" is no where to be found in the Quran. maybe in the books of jews and the christians. you see, the 'apostle' PAUL---the fonder of christianity, preached while employing *deceit*, *misleading* and *lies* preaching. in fact, in the bible, paul said: "If the TRUTH of God hath more abounded through my LIE unto His glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner" (Roman 3:7).------an interesting illustration of 'the end justifying the means' the Quran, however, condems both the ends and the means-----to reach the TRUTH notice the last word of the ayah--------a *prophet*. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". therefore, the true prophets of Allah do not employ the kind of tricks that a man like paul uses----------in order to reach the TRUTH------'the end justifying the means'
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 03:29 pm Anon: I see you accept the bible and not the authentic hadith!! and interesting illustration of a "messed up mind" Anon said: "fyi, both adam and musa were not prophets of Allah when they erred. musa never inteded to kill the guy. prophets do not tell a lie; Allah protects them". I dont know where anon gets this detail from. I think his bible defines when each of them became a prophet. which verse tell us this? Do you know the definition of a prophet and a messenger? which verse tell you the differences. You see we muslims define a prophet as one whom an angel talked to and Adam from the very start quilfied as a prophet. All all in the sunnah Anon: you as a mans of desire use it when you like and ignore it when you like. I hope you are more faithful to the bible then you are to the sunnah!
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 04:24 pm Observer 2 wrote on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:32 pm:------"I honestly advise all decent muslims to ignore him."-----then, i said: "i don't think you will take your own advice, observer." ;-) "I see you accept the bible and not the authentic hadith!!" actually, i pointed out that some people (muslims) also believe the fallacy-----'the end justifying the means'. like paul, these muslims say the prophet ibrahim preached islam---- while employing *lies*. ;-) Allah, however, said ibrahim was a man of truth------a prophet. ;-) it is wrong to employ---'the end justifying the means' kind of preaching which paul did----"If the TRUTH of God hath more abounded through my LIE unto His glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner" (Roman 3:7).------an interesting illustration of 'the end justifying the means'-----yes, and interesting illustration of a "messed up mind". ;-) real prophets (not the imposters like paul) do not need to lie in order to preach islam and Allah is witness. ibrahim was a man of truth---a *prophet*. ;-) what paul wrote in the bible-----is not Allah's words, but what Allah said in the Quran is Allah's word. Allah said ibrahim was a man of truth and a prophet. and the prophet muhammad recited that verse. i don't think prophet muhammad disagreed what he recited/told to recite. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". --------"fyi, both adam and musa were not prophets of Allah when they erred. musa never intended to kill the guy. prophets do not tell a lie; Allah protects them"--------- "I dont know where anon gets this detail from. I think his bible defines when each of them became a prophet. " you think-------when moses accidentally killed that guy-----he was a prophet? ;-) also, you think-----adam was a prophet when he was in heaven? ;-) "which verse tell us this? Do you know the definition of a prophet and a messenger? which verse tell you the differences. You see we muslims define a prophet as one whom an angel talked to and Adam from the very start quilfied as a prophet."" no, you tell me----- which verse or hadeeth that say moses was a prophet when the accident happened and that adam was a prophet when he was in heaven? which verse and hadeeth says that? i mean, do the prophets commit sin? ;-) "All all in the sunnah Anon: you as a mans of desire use it when you like and ignore it when you like." lol "I hope you are more faithful to the bible then you are to the sunnah!" lol------i hope. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 04:37 pm Observer 2 wrote on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:32 pm:------"I honestly advise all decent muslims to ignore him."-----then, i said: "i don't think you will take your own advice, observer." ;-) "I see you accept the bible and not the authentic hadith!!" actually, i pointed out that some people (muslims) also believe the fallacy-----'the end justifying the means'. like paul, these muslims think it is okay for a man of God---a *prophet* to preach---- while employing *lies*. ;-) Allah, however, said ibrahim was a man of truth------a prophet. ;-) it is wrong to employ---'the end justifying the means' kind of preaching which paul did----"If the TRUTH of God hath more abounded through my LIE unto His glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner" (Roman 3:7).------an interesting illustration of 'the end justifying the means'-----yes, and interesting illustration of a "messed up mind". ;-) real prophets (not the imposters like paul) do not need to lie in order to preach islam and Allah is witness. ibrahim was a man of truth---a *prophet*. ;-) what paul wrote in the bible-----is not Allah's words, but what Allah said in the Quran is Allah's word. Allah said ibrahim was a man of truth and a prophet. and the prophet muhammad recited that verse. i don't think prophet muhammad disagreed what he recited/told to recite. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". --------"fyi, both adam and musa were not prophets of Allah when they erred. musa never intended to kill the guy. prophets do not tell a lie; Allah protects them"--------- "I dont know where anon gets this detail from. I think his bible defines when each of them became a prophet. " you think-------when moses accidentally killed that guy-----he was a prophet? ;-) also, you think-----adam was a prophet when he was in heaven? ;-) "which verse tell us this? Do you know the definition of a prophet and a messenger? which verse tell you the differences. You see we muslims define a prophet as one whom an angel talked to and Adam from the very start quilfied as a prophet."" no, you tell me----- which verse or hadeeth that say moses was a prophet when the accident happened and that adam was a prophet when he was in heaven? which verse and hadeeth says that? i mean, do the prophets commit sin? ;-) "All all in the sunnah Anon: you as a mans of desire use it when you like and ignore it when you like." lol "I hope you are more faithful to the bible then you are to the sunnah!" lol------i hope. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 06:10 pm Hey Guys I wanna ask u a lil' question, Every Page I go in this Islamic forums I see this Dude Bukhari,, So is this Bukhari a big somali sheikh like Boqol soon and Sheikh Gacameey..
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 08:36 pm OK FG. Salaamu claykum sheekh, waxaan ku mooday nin sadex sano ka hor Netka chief ka ahaa oo aanu wada kaftami jiray, inkastoon wagaas anigu kusoo geli jiray magac kale. Salaama
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| | Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 11:16 pm Dear all Arawello was well intentioned when she opened this page. Please let us not loose focus on core issues. One should either teach or learn, third one is not helping. If one fails to convince some one, one should use her energies in keeping hostilities out, this will give them reward, in shaAllah. I visted this page, but I begin loosing interest, and unless we become objective, and not personal, we ourself may need counselling.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 12:47 am MOWLIIDMACAANE. Asalaamu caleykum. Walaal I am not sheikh may Allah be pleased with you. Thanks for the respect. I am an intermittent student(who takes long intervals and absences from islamic circles) and I can't even answer Basic questions. Dunya lover should be my title. Aren't we all in America except few pious people who teach kids and women "islam". Walaal, I am your friend and your brother like faalka xaaji. Consider me as both. Saaxiib, FG iigu yeer I like that one. Observer2/Anon. I think we should follow the advice of BROTHER NUR. It is our best interest that we don't argue anymore on the currect discussion.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:03 am "I think we should follow the advice of BROTHER NUR. It is our best interest that we don't argue anymore on the currect discussion." well, those who employ hostilities and get personal by isulting people that is their business. when did muse become a prophet? "And when he attained his full strength and became firm (in mind and body), We vouchsafed him wisdom and knowledge (in religion and piety before he was endowed with prophethood), and thus We reward the welldoers. And he entered the city (of Memphis---largest city of ancient Egypt) at a time of unawareness of its inhabitants, and he found two men fighting therein, one being of his own party (an Israelite--of his own religion and nation), and the other of his enemies (and idolatrous Egyptian). And he who as of his party called him for help against the one who was of his enemies. So Musa (after ineffectual verbal remonstrance) struck him with fist, and put an end of him (accidentally and without intending his death). Musa said (being sorry at the unintended effect of his action): this is of the work of satan (who prompted me to take a rash action), verily he is an enemy (of mankind), a misleader (inasmuch as he deprives one of the opportunity of full deliberation and cool calculation of the result of one's actions) manifest. Musa said: Lord! verily I have wrong (in penitence befitting a future prophet of Allah) my soul (by this negligent and hasty action of mine), so forgive. So He forgave him. Verily He! He is Forgiving, the Owner of Mercy. Musa said: Lord! whereas Thou hast favored me (in the past), I shall (profiting by his experience) never more be a supporter of the culprits................And when he betook himself towards Madyan (it is a town on the east side of the gulf of akaba), he said (comfort himself as he did not know the way thither): perchance my Lord will guide me even way. Then when he arrived at the waters of Madyan he found there a community of people watering (their animals). And he found, apart from them, two women, keeping back their flocks. He said: what is the matter with you two? (that you do not water your flocks). They said: we do not draw water until the shepherds have driven away their flocks, and out father is a very old man. Then he watered their flocks for the twain (as befitted a chivalrous man like him). Then, he turned aside unto the shade, a said (a hungry, homeless wanderer as he then was): Lord! I have need of the good which Thou mayest send down for me. Then one of the two came to him walking bashfully (with the sleeve of her shirt over face---this was the one, who eventually became wife of muse), and said: my father invites thee that he may recompense thee with a wage for that thou didst water the flocks for us. Then when he had come to him and recounted to him the whole story (of his having inadvertently killed the egyptian and then leaving the country in fear), he said: have no fear; thou hast escaped from the wrong-doing people.............Then when Musa had fulfilled the term and was journeying with his family (to egypt), he saw a fire on the side of tur, and said t his family: bide you here; I see a fire afar, haply I may bring to news of it or a brand out of the fire, haply you may warm yourselves. Then when he had arrived thereto (by a Voice), he was called from the right side (from the right-hand side of Musa) of the valley in the ground blessed with the tree: Musa! verily I! I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds; and cast down thy rod. And when he saw it string as though it were a serpent, he turned in flight and looked not back. Musa! draw nigh, and fear not; thou of the secure ones. Slip thy hand in thy bosom, it will come forth white without hurt (by way of miracle) and draw back the arm to thee for fear (to guard against fear). These will be two evidences (evidences such as the egyptians could understand) from thy Lord for fircown and his chiefs; verily they have been a people given to transgression. He said Lord! I have slain a man amongst them, and I fear they may slay me (before I get time to deliver the message); and my brother Harun! he is more eloquent than I in speech. So end him with me as a support to corroborate me, verily I fear they will belie me (and then a debate will ensue when eloquence of speech is greatly needed). Allah said: We shall indeed strengthen thy arm with thy brother, and We shall given to you authority, so that they shall not be able to come up to you. GO FORTH WITH YOUR SIGNS! YOU TWAIN AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOU SHALL BE VICTORS. ......."qasas 14.....35
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:13 am Anon. Bukhari and Muslim both transmitted the hadith. If this Hadith is wrong Bukhari wouldn't have transmitted it so as Muslim. Also, the scholars at the time of Bukhari examined all his ahadith for compatabilty with the Quran. They all Agreed it fit. You are the only one so far who denied that Hadith along with your submitter foes. Face it. Your implication of the hadith at hand was also wrong. Tell us you are more pious than BUKHARI AND MUSLIM and they were fabricating lies against Abraham and on the prophet?. Or may be they didn't understand what the hadith means and you after these many centuries are telling us the hadith is bogus?. If people call you names, you brought it unto yourself. Hope they don't write anymore but you seriously need to rethink about your argument on this one.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 09:24 am "Anon. Bukhari and Muslim both transmitted the hadith. If this Hadith is wrong Bukhari wouldn't have transmitted it so as Muslim. Also, the scholars at the time of Bukhari examined all his ahadith for compatabilty with the Quran. They all Agreed it fit. " Allah and the prophet transmitted the truth by saying ibrahim is a man of truth, a prophet. prophets do not lie nor do they commit sins. "You are the only one so far who denied that Hadith along with your submitter foes. Face it. " lol------denied that hadith along with *your* submitter foes. face it. ;-) "Your implication of the hadith at hand was also wrong. Tell us you are more pious than BUKHARI AND MUSLIM and they were fabricating lies against Abraham and on the prophet?. Or may be they didn't understand what the hadith means and you after these many centuries are telling us the hadith is bogus?." Allah and the prophet did told the truth-----that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. the Quranic saying is clear (without implication) and i take it over anything anyone else says. ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. he was no lair. ;-) "If people call you names, you brought it unto yourself." do you think i care what people (including you) say about me? ;-) "Hope they don't write anymore" practice what you preach. "but you seriously need to rethink about your argument on this one." the feeling is mutual. ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:17 am ANON. From Muslim, Book 34, Number 6443: "Abdullah b. 'Umar reported: I went to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in the morning and he heard the voice of two persons who had an argumentation with each other about a verse. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) came to us (and) the (signs) of anger could be seen on his face. He said: Verily, the (peoples) before you were ruined because of their disputation in the Book." Anon, continous arguments about religious matter isn't that blessed. It might lead to a lot of things. Considering your confusion and willful dispute against a saxix Hadith makes it even worse. May Allah give you and us the strength to accept what is right and show you and us the purest of all matters. If I am interested in name calling, I would have joined the people long time ago. You went too far this time by denying a Hadith. I don't understand the point you want to make here. Not only that but by arguing against it so that people who don't understand What Saxix Hadith means can get the feeling that there is Hadith transmitted by bukhari which is wrong. DO YOU WANT PEOPLE DENY OR TAKE IT LIGHTLY WHEN THEY ARE TOLD "NARRATED BY BUKHARI" OR "NARRATED BY MUSLIM"?. OR You are better in understanding than the scholars of islam previous and current so that you CAN EASILY dismiss a saxix Hadith?. WHY DID YOU SPEND SOME TIME ARGUING THOSE WHO REFUSED THE AHADITH?. Care to answer that question without resorting remarks like "You can join this group or that group"?. If you can't handle proplems of your own making refrain from writing.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:59 am "May Allah give you and us the strength to accept what is right and show you and us the purest of all matters." amiin "If I am interested in name calling, I would have joined the people long time ago." saying that i'm being influenced or i'm being affected people (*your* submitter foes) is an insult, but who cares? i laugh at it. ;-) "You went too far this time by denying a Hadith." that is what you say. if i denied hadeeth saying, you denied the Quranic sayings. ;-) "I don't understand the point you want to make here." the feeling is mutual. ;-) "Not only that but by arguing against it so that people who don't understand What Saxix Hadith means can get the feeling that there is Hadith transmitted by bukhari which is wrong. DO YOU WANT PEOPLE DENY OR TAKE IT LIGHTLY WHEN THEY ARE TOLD "NARRATED BY BUKHARI" OR "NARRATED BY MUSLIM"?." what about the words of Allah that say ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet? do you think people should think this is wrong and take it lightly? "OR You are better in understanding than the scholars of islam previous and current so that you CAN EASILY dismiss a saxix Hadith?" i understand the words of Allah that say ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. i undertand that prophets of Allah do not lie when they are preaching islam. you are saying ibrahim lied. i do not understand this. "WHY DID YOU SPEND SOME TIME ARGUING THOSE WHO REFUSED THE AHADITH? Care to answer that question" i will spend more with those who refused the words of Allah. "without resorting remarks like You can join this group or that group"?." lol. i think you are talking about yourself. i am not the one who says to people----you are like the group or that group------your* submitter foes. ;-) "If you can't handle proplems of your own making" lol------can't handle... ;-) "refrain from writing." lol
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 12:17 pm "Anon, continous arguments about religious matter" and you are not? ;-) "isn't that blessed." if it that is blessing for you, then anyone else who comes here and argues is blessed, right? ;-) "It might lead to a lot of things." yes. "Considering your confusion " lol------your confusion. ;-) "and willful dispute against a saxix Hadith makes it even worse." what about the willful dispute against what the Quran says------that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. is this not saxiis for you? which one is wrost to deny------the Quran or the hadeeth? ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 01:15 pm Asalamu Alaykum Sorry Guys, I can't help it. I said i would not respond but I will try one last time to clear a confusion in Anon's mind and at the very least it will be beneficial to others. Insha Allah. one becomes a man of truth as the hadith states, "..a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person". So Akhi, If i tell a truth ones this does not Necessarily make me a man of truth. And similarly akhi (ikhwan) telling a lie once does not make a person a liar. "...a man may keep on telling lies till he is written before Allah, a liar." (bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 11). It is very simple, I dont know why you find this concept hard to understand? There is no contradiction between the noble hadith and the quran. If you accept the Prophets definitions then it all makes sense. If you reject the hadith and make your own definition then we encounter a lot of problems in our understanding. So there is no need to call Ibrahim (AS) a liar. On top of this definition we have the circumstances as well as the purpose ibrahim said what he said and did what he did. The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm. So We have to accept Islam as a whole Anon and look with all the sources of Islam to understand an Issue. Your personal Tafsir (and i've read it several times) does not make any sense to me (and please dont be childish and say neither does your). One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495). Another example is a man's speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma' bint Yazeed said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man's speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.'" (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717). I urge you to type your own paragraph. Please dont reply to ones sentence out of context as you have done in the past. Try and understand my message.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:46 pm JB. You are fine walaal. We need the wisdom. And don't worry about the out of context responses Anon showers on people. That is how he writes friendly or unfreindly. Somehow his words look like on the Attack. I am used to it and you will if you continue discussing with him. ANON. The hadith is used to defend the position of Our prophet Abraham. As indicated by the Hadith itself , it responds to those who would ask questions about why Abraham said: "I am sick", "It was done by their biggest" and the story of his wife being at risk where he said "she was his sister". That is why all mufasiriin bring that Hadith under the verses. I don't know about the ones you saw. Do they have the Hadith?. Do you think Muslims would unite on a wrong-doing if we follow your take on the Hadith?. It is unforgivable to attribute imperfections to the prophets and the hadith is protecting prophet Abraham not the opposite. We would have seen a lot of dismissals if it wasn't that. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim's forwords on their books would suffice anybody who wants to see how protective and very vigil these two men were in collecting the Ahadith. and all other scholars spent some time on their books and they saw nothing wrong with that hadith. If your position is to avoid any implications to the prophet, Let those who wouldn't believe in islam because of their misunderstanding, don't believe in it. You can't correct people's views if they are not upto the deal. So, why worry?. The "lols" really don't like "lols" to me. I don't mind though, if you are blue or black, I am not gonna let you off the hook on this one, at least for now. Whatever it takes. May Allah give you his blessings and understanding in this matter.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:55 pm Anon. Forgive me if I really hurt your feeling. May Allah give you the fiqh of his deen. It is all agreed that we correct each other if we are mistaken.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 05:25 pm "Sorry Guys, I can't help it. I said i would not respond " there is nothing to be sorry. i knew you were coming back for more. ;-) "but I will try one last time" i don't think this is going to be your last time. ;-) "to clear a confusion in Anon's mind" lol "and at the very least it will be beneficial to others. Insha Allah." okay. lets see what brought you back: ;-) "one becomes a man of truth as the hadith states, "If i tell a truth ones this does not Necessarily make me a man of truth." until you tell a lie. ;-) "And similarly akhi (ikhwan) telling a lie once does not make a person a liar." a lie is a lie (big or small). once you lie, you commit a sin. prophets do not commit a sin. "It is very simple, I dont know why you find this concept hard to understand?" i understand that prophets do not commit a sin. they do not have to lie. prophets are always truthful in their preaching islam. "There is no contradiction between the noble hadith and the quran." if there is not contradiction, then let's accept that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet; let's accept that he was no lair. ;-) "If you accept the Prophets definitions then it all makes sense." i accept what Allah told the prophet to *preach* (to say)---"And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". "If you reject the hadith and make your own definition then we encounter a lot of problems in our understanding." if i reject what Allah told the prophet to *preach*-----"And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet"----i will encounter a lot of problems. "So there is no need to call Ibrahim (AS) a liar." that is right. ;-) "On top of this definition we have the circumstances as well as the purpose ibrahim said what he said and did what he did." ibrahim had no purpose to lie and the circumstances he was in made him no liar. he did not need to lie. "The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm." again, prophets do not lie and they do not employ misleading preaching. they always tell the truth in their preaching. it is no where to be found in the Quran the employing of "the end justifies the jeans" preaching----maybe in the books of jews and the christians. to lie in order to win people's hearts is a wrong rule. it is not islam. it is like forcing people. no compulsion in religion. "So We have to accept Islam as a whole Anon and look with all the sources of Islam to understand an Issue." we have to accept islam, but do we have to accept that prophet ibrahim misled his people and lied (sinned)? ;-) "Your personal Tafsir (and i've read it several times) does not make any sense to me (and please dont be childish and say neither does your)." lol-----be childish. ;-) jb, what about the YUSUF ALI, PICKTHAL and SHAKIR you posted? ;-) "One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495)." again, the prophet do not lie and they do not mislead people. prophet do not employ "the end justifies the jeans" preaching. ;-) "Another example is a man's speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma' bint Yazeed said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man's speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.'" (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717)." once again, the prophet do not lie and they do not mislead people. prophet do not employ "the end justifies the jeans" preaching. ;-) "I urge you to type your own paragraph." lol------>i urge you. ;-) "Please dont reply to ones sentence out of context as you have done in the past. Try and understand my message." i didn't put things into your mouth. i told you that i wish you showed me where i did (before and now) imply things you didn't say. i'm sure throwing accusations will not help your case. you can not show me the out of contex sentence i used against you, can you? ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 05:45 pm "And don't worry about the out of context responses Anon showers on people." again, i wish you guys showed me where i did (before and now) imply things you didn't say. i'm sure throwing accusations will not help your cases. you can not show me the out of contex sentence i used against you, can you? ;-) "That is how he writes friendly or unfreindly." lol------friendly or unfriendly. ;-) "Somehow his words look like on the Attack. I am used to it and you will if you continue discussing with him." lol "The hadith is used to defend the position of Our prophet Abraham. As indicated by the Hadith itself , it responds to those who would ask questions about why Abraham said: "I am sick", "It was done by their biggest" and the story of his wife being at risk where he said "she was his sister". That is why all mufasiriin bring that Hadith under the verses." lol------->all mufasiriin. ;-) "I don't know about the ones you saw. Do they have the Hadith?." i have the Quran saying ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. i know that prophets do not lie and sin. ;-) "Do you think Muslims would unite on a wrong-doing if we follow your take on the Hadith?." lol------your take on the hadith. why don't you take the what the Quran says a true-----that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet? ;-) "It is unforgivable to attribute imperfections to the prophets and the hadith is protecting prophet Abraham not the opposite. We would have seen a lot of dismissals if it wasn't that. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim's forwords on their books would suffice anybody who wants to see how protective and very vigil these two men were in collecting the Ahadith. and all other scholars spent some time on their books and they saw nothing wrong with that hadith." yes, ibrahim did not lie. Allah himself protected him. ibrahim was a man of true, a propeht. the epithet is brought to correct the jews, the christians and anyone else's imputations to ibrahim of falsehood----to have lied. ibrahim never wanted to tell a lie and never did tell a lie. Allah told the prophet (muhammad) to tell who was really ibrahim "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". "If your position is to avoid any implications to the prophet, Let those who wouldn't believe in islam because of their misunderstanding, don't believe in it. You can't correct people's views if they are not upto the deal. So, why worry?." Allah is correcting people and saying ibrahim was a man of true, a prophet. i'm just pointing out this. i don't care who disagrees this Quranic saying------muslim or non-muslim. ;-) "The "lols" really don't like "lols" to me." lol------>really don't like. ;-) "I don't mind though, if you are blue or black, I am not gonna let you off the hook on this one, at least for now. Whatever it takes." okay, but don't say then "It is our best interest that we don't argue anymore on the currect discussion." ;-) "May Allah give you his blessings and understanding in this matter." same to you. ;-) "Forgive me if I really hurt your feeling." lol------>hurt your feeling. no need for forgivness. ;-) "May Allah give you the fiqh of his deen. It is all agreed that we correct each other if we are mistaken." amiin to all. ;-) yes,
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 06:25 pm Anon. It is your interest that you refrain from these arguments. It doesn't make me happy to make you something that you are not. If you are so stubborn in this matter, I will have no choice but to use the Quran against you for your refusal of the Hadith. And you know well where it will end. We don't do favours in the religion of Allah. I will use the same verses you used against those who were ridiculing the ahadith to make them irreligious. You might also know that the prophet said peace be upon him: Book 34, Number 6447: from muslim: "'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The most despicable amongst persons in the eye of Allah is one who tries to fall into dispute with others (for nothing but only to display his knowledge and power of argumentation)."
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:08 pm "Anon It is your interest that you refrain from these arguments." speaking about interest, i think you are confusing yourself in your argument. you do not know what is in your interest. i mean, one time you are saying "It is our best interest that we don't argue anymore on the currect discussion." and in another time you are saying "I am not gonna let you off the hook on this one, at least for now. Whatever it takes." ;-) "It doesn't make me happy to make you something that you are not." lol---to make you something that you are not. can you? ;-_ "If you are so stubborn in this matter" lol------> so stubborn. are you talking about yourself? ;-) "I will have no choice but to use the Quran against you for your refusal of the Hadith." okay, use the Quran. ;-) "And you know well where it will end." are you saying this ayah is not enough for you and end your argument?-----"And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet"? ;-) "We don't do favours in the religion of Allah." including lying, right? ;-) "I will use the same verses you used against those who were ridiculing the ahadith to make them irreligious." i've never made anyone irreligious. i don't think i can do that. did you say: "It doesn't make me happy to make you something that you are not." are you saying you can make me irrligious for using the Quran against me? ;-) "You might also know that the prophet said peace be upon him: Book 34, Number 6447: from muslim: "'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The most despicable amongst persons in the eye of Allah is one who tries to fall into dispute with others (for nothing but only to display his knowledge and power of argumentation)." are you talking about yourself? didn't you say you will have no choice but to use the Quran against me? ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:13 pm FG. You are right I shall hold my horses back. I think in the end we say same thing. But from different angle. I pray that Allah forgives me. I was just joking and having fun with you guys. Did you not see all the lols. Peace every one. I hope you'll found it as entertaing as me.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:32 pm FG, i believe you argued that the reason ibrahim lied was that he was afraid of his people while preaching islam. okay, let's see what the Quran says about that--------this is ibrahim talking: "Verily I have set my face towards Him who has created the heavens and the earth, upright, and i'm not of the associators. And his people CONTENDED with him. He said: do you CONTEND with me regarding Allah when He has guided me? I am not at all AFRAID of what you associate with Him, save aught that my Lord may will. My Lord comprehends everything in His knowledge. Will you not then be ADMONISHED? And how should I FEAR what you have associated with Him, while you do not FEAR to associate with Allah that for which He has send down to you no authority? Which then of the parties is wortheir of SECURITY, if you but knew? It is those who believe and do not CONFOUND THEIR BELIEF WITH WRONG-DOING. These! theirs is the SECURITY and they are the guided. This was teh argument which We have to Ibrahim against his people. We raise in degree whom we please; verily thy Lord is Wise, Knowing" AN'AM 79--83. was ibrahim AFRAID in order to LIE? i don't think so------no i don't believe so. ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:37 pm Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool looooooooooooooooooooool Take it easy people this is how i pass my time. find me a job and i will stop pulling your leg peace
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:37 pm "FG. You are right I shall hold my horses back. I think in the end we say same thing. But from different angle. I pray that Allah forgives me. I was just joking and having fun with you guys. Did you not see all the lols. Peace every one. I hope you'll found it as entertaing as me." LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL how DESPERATE can people! anyone can use my username (ANON) and write something i don't want to write. ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:41 pm "Take it easy people this is how i pass my time." find me a job and i will stop pulling your leg peace" again, how DESPERATE can people get! ;-)
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:42 pm Im not crazy....i just like to have fun! I like to pretend to be many different people in the same discussion. In fact i am many other people on this very same topic.;-) lol------> peace
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:46 pm "again, how DESPERATE can people get! ;-)" I see your even copying my style.;-) give it up: lol------> but its funny
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:55 pm Come on people! ;-) dont do this to me. I need some new to argue with: otherwise i will stay here all night and argue with myself. "i will stay here all night and argue with myself" very funny. ;-) why don't you. lol------> its funny "its funny" well it maybe funny to you but its getting boring!;-) People get back into this discussion. It takes two hands to clap. You see i have only one hand so i slap my face! ;-) lol------> Im cracking myself up:
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:10 pm Have you guys gone mad???. I must say it was hellarious though...still laughing looooooooooool.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:50 pm TLG. Well, sis, Have you seen what happened to Idea when she one time said LOL?. Anon with his hands full with Another Anon won't let you get away with the laughter. Hope he doesn't go berserk again like he did on Idea. Idea must be scared to write her initials here I guess. Anon whoever the genius is, confused me myself. I haven't paid much attention to Asad's style before. My Mistake. The slight difference is the admission of wrong doing. Close.
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| | Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 09:46 pm Formerguest and ANON the imposter is the same person he lost the debate so this is the only way he thinks will win him
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 12:31 am FG...>why won't sharks attack economists? Professional Courtesy :-) You guessed wrong :-)
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 06:27 am "Have you guys gone mad???. " No. Have you? ;-) "I must say it was hellarious though...still laughing looooooooooool" It might be funny to you but try living with multiple personalty disorder. lol---->Funny, you think?
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 06:35 am "Formerguest and ANON the imposter is the same person he lost the debate so this is the only way he thinks will win him " lol----> you think your sherlockholmes. I wish you were a doctor.
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 06:38 am This is a sick Joke!!! In Gods Name i ask you to stop! or......I will tell my mommy
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 09:07 pm FG, let me try him....lol. When it gets a lil heated, i'll just say, "peace brother". It always works for me. Anon, come on brotherman. What do you mean u didn't find it funny? Besides you said you don't take anything written here seriously. You just laugh at them. So come on....laugh at it...it was funny.
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:14 pm To: FG Ok Walaakiis I am your friend and your brother of course and admire many of your comment. Salaama.
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:32 pm MOW. Thanks. baarakallaahu fiika. TLG. Honest to Allah, I don't wanna mess with Anon. Can't handle him. I am surprised you dare this far with him. Don't count on me to come to your rescue. I wanted to be a good samaritan to IDEA look what happened to me!!?. At least you show some opposition. Do you seriously belief one laughs about what others say?. You have to be void of emmotions to not laugh at or re-act to what goes on around here. May be the sharks don't have a feeling other than biting. Idea. I can't surf with the sharks larking around. You are on your own guys. ANON-PRETENDER: I appreciate if you could leave the brother alone. Thanks for the effort. I had some laughs about what you have done to him while even driving almost all day yesterday. It bites to be copied. Hope you give him a break. Anon. I know you don't care if you are offered an apology or not, so do with my writing with whatever you wish. Honestly though, I like you walaal. No one is perfect.
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| | Friday, January 12, 2001 - 11:00 pm Asalamu Alaykum Ikhwan, Allah says in the Quran: “And those who annoy believing men and woman undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.” [Al-Ahzaab 33:58] I may be funny but pretending to be one else is lying and haram. (I am not trying to reactivate the discussion about Ibrahim PBUH). ANON
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 01:30 am "Anon, come on brotherman. What do you mean u didn't find it funny?" Besides you said you don't take anything written here seriously. You just laugh at them. So come on....laugh at it...it was funny." yes, i do not take things on here seriously. i laugh at it. thus, you are talking about someone else pretending to be anon, not me. i didn't say "i didn't find it funny". ;-) "Honest to Allah, I don't wanna mess with Anon. Can't handle him." lol "I am surprised you dare this far with him." lol " Don't count on me to come to your rescue." lol " I wanted to be a good samaritan to IDEA look what happened to me!!? At least you show some opposition. " nothing happened to her. i said since you (fg) said i can't break my rule (of having the last word) and since she lol at what fg (you) said about me, i thought i do the honors here. and i pointed out (not to her, but to you) the act of "The End Justifies the Means" not acceptable for the prophet. "Do you seriously belief one laughs about what others say?" lol "You have to be void of emmotions to not laugh at or re-act to what goes on around here. May be the sharks don't have a feeling other than biting." lol. maybe this "shark" is cool and calm and does not take things here seriously (how to laugh at insults thrown at him, even if his mother, father and himself is insulted) and he knows how to dish it out without returning the favor (by not insulting back). ;-) "I know you don't care if you are offered an apology or not, so do with my writing with whatever you wish. Honestly though, I like you walaal. No one is perfect." lol. you said it right. ;-) "I may be funny but pretending to be one else is lying and haram." lol. yes, you got that right. "I am not trying to reactivate the discussion about Ibrahim PBUH. ANON" that is your business. speaking of lying and ibrahim, because Allah said: “And those who annoy believing men and woman undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.” [Al-Ahzaab 33:58] We should know that to demean a Prophet, call him a liar, curse him or attack his rank, even unwittingly, constitutes a grave offense. May Allah protect us from the slips of the tongue. Whoever is in need to learn what constitutes such offenses from near or far should read Ibn Taymiyya's book al-Sarim al-maslul `ala shatim al-rasul or the chapter on the subject in Qadi `Iyad's book al-Shifa'. As for what the `ulama of Ahl al-Sunna said about this hadith, it is that in this hadith the term "lies" is relative to the outside perspective of the people, not to the acts of the Prophet Ibrahim themselves. This is the explanation of Abu al-Wafa ibn `Aqil al-Hanbali, who added that to attribute common lies to Prophets would contradict their essential characteristic as the most trustworthy of human beings and those who never lie. This is related by Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari and he states it as the correct view. Nawawi in Sharh Sahih Muslim cites a similar view from Qadi `Iyad and others. This is the understanding of Ahl al-Sunna, and Allah knows best. http://www.geocities.com/abusamad/ibrahim.html
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 03:00 am Anon. Thanks for the link. You should have provided it long ago. what do we say to the submitters when they argue "if hadith fits their quranic way of understanding it is okey" and "If it doesn't fit" "then it is out of the window". Talk about the finality of messengerhood for example. The verse namely says "prophethood" and not "messengerhood" thus Submitter claims why bother the Ahadith. Asad, the defence is that a messenger has to be a prophet first then becomes a messenger. Tha logic together with the ahadith of the prophet that clearly tell the finality of messengership don't suffice submitters. Ahadith are simply rejected by the Submitters and what is left then?. Your/our explanation of first prophethood then messengership. Put that in light of what we have here. Are you and your Abusamad wrong here in your take on the issue or the rest of the muslims are wrong?. Some thoughts eh?. No one will have faith in Hadith if people followed the logic of submitters since they have their own way of understanding of the Quran. If there was an excuse given to someone simply he/she understands the Quran differently, then submitters would have gotten their way and thus would have made many people gone astray as they gone astray. We can not follow the verdict of everyone or what he/she thinks is right. from saxix muslim: Book 34, Number 6462: "Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-'As reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, Allah does not take away knowledge by snatching it from the people but He takes away knowledge by taking away the scholars, so that when He leaves no learned person, people turn to ignorant as their, leaders; then they are asked to deliver religious verdicts and they deliver them without knowledge, they go astray, and lead others astray. "
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 04:31 pm Ok I have no clue about what's going on and I really do not want to read everyone's comments but looooooool at raxmatullah khan, the name is sooooo funny I laughed so hard..... I sense a little friction between FG and Anon aka asad what's up guys?........one last thing what does JB stand for?
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 07:30 pm FG, brother, I would have agreed with you, but i'm not sure how many people are out there who cut and paste a whole paragh and embede "lols". So it is possible that they just laugh at everything that is said. Now, i'm going too deep, aren't I? and FG said he won't come to my rescue...oh oh.
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:23 pm Sweetgirl: JB is a nick name my friends call me by. It has no meaning  Anon: Interesting Page. Did you make it? I couldn't help notice the total absence of Hadith. I read it non the less. I will take one (authentic) word from our beloved Rasool over a million words by any other man. It is just like the rasool said, Ibrahim lied three times, twice for the sake of Allah and one for the sake of sarah. We have gone round in circles many times. Every time i say, to myself this is my last time.. and then i see another way to approach the topic. All along hoping that this explanation will help you to accept the authentic hadith and the views of our great scholars. I also agree with what you wrote above, Prophet do not indulge in "common lies". Before i paste a question i got from Islam-qa let me mention that the translation of quran on that page is wrong. Unless it is an interpretation of Yusuf Ali's word!!! On that page we read "No prophet could (ever) act dishonestly if any person acts dishonestly he shall" (003.161 YUSUFALI) Actual words are 003.161 YUSUFALI: No prophet could (ever) be false to his trust.If any person is so false. 'Being false to his trust' refers to embezzlement(Ghulul). I can see why the author would like to change the words. If you ask me this is what we call "common tactic" or "common deception" or plainly put cheap shot Question: I have been told by someone claiming to be a Muslim that all God's prophets, including Mohammed, were without sin, (perfect), never requiring forgiveness. Is this a view held officially by Islam as a whole? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. We thank you for sending this question in an effort to find the right answer instead of merely accepting what you have heard from someone who claims to be a Muslim. “The ummah (Muslim nation) is agreed that the Messengers are infallible in carrying out their mission – they do not forget anything that Allaah has revealed to them except with regard to matters that have been abrogated. They are also infallible in conveying the Message – they do not conceal anything that Allaah has revealed to them, for that would be a betrayal and it is impossible to imagine that they could do such a thing. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘O Messenger! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not ,then you have not conveyed His Message…’ [al-Maa’idah 5:67]. If anything is concealed or changed, then the punishment of Allaah will befall the one who is guilty of doing these things, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And if he [Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] had forged a false saying concerning Us [Allaah], We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (aorta).’ [al-Haqqah 69:44-46]. One aspect of infallibility is that they (the Prophets) do not forget anything of that which Allaah has revealed to them, and thus no part of the revelation is lost.” [Al-rusul wa’l-risaalaat (The Messengers and their missions), ‘Omar al-Ashqar, p. 97] ‘Omar al-Ashqar also said (op. cit., p.102): “The Prophets and Messengers may also strive to find the right judgement in the situations with which they are faced, and they judge according to what they themselves see and hear – they do not have knowledge of the Unseen. They may make an incorrect judgement, as happened to the Prophet of Allaah Dawood (David), who failed to do so, and Allaah helped his son Sulaymaan (Solomon) to come up with the right answer in that particular case. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that he heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘There were two women, each of whom had a son. A wolf came and carried off the son of one of them, who said to the other, “The wolf has taken your son.” The other said, “No, he took your son.” They came to Dawood to ask him to judge between them, and he ruled in favour of the older woman. Then they went to Sulaymaan the son of Dawood and told him what had happened. He said, “Bring a knife and divide the child between them.” The younger woman said, “Do not do that, may Allaah have mercy on you! He is her son.” So Sulaymaan ruled in favour of the younger woman.’ (Reported by al-Bukhaari). “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained this story: Umm Salamah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) narrated that he heard a dispute going on at the door of his apartment, so he went out and told them: ‘I am no more than a human being. Disputing parties may come to me, and one of you may be more eloquent and persuasive than the other, so I may think that he is telling the truth and rule in favour of him. Whoever has a judgement in favour of him to the detriment of a fellow-Muslim’s rights, this is a piece of the Fire – let him take it or leave it.’” When it comes to the idea of the Prophets committing major sins (kabaa’ir), Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said (in al-Fataawaa, 4/319): “…The belief that the Prophets are free of major sins, but not of minor sins, is the opinion of the majority of Islamic scholars and of all (Muslim) groups… It is the opinion of most mufassireen (commentators on the Qur’an), scholars of hadeeth and fuqaha’ (jurists).” With regard to whether it is possible for the Prophets to commit minor sins, in Lawaami’ al-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah (2/214), al-Safaareeni quoted from Ibn Hamdaan who said in Nihaayat al-Mubtadi’een: “They are infallible in conveying the commands and message of Allaah, but they are not infallible in any other regard. They may make mistakes, forget things, or commit minor sins – according to the most well-known opinion (of the scholars) – but they will not be approved for these mistakes.” The majority of scholars take the following as evidence to support their claim that the Prophets are not free from minor sins: Adam’s sin in eating from the tree from which Allaah had forbidden him to eat. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And (remember) when We said to the angels, ‘Prostrate yourselves to Adam.’ They prostrated (all) except Iblees (Satan), who refused. Then We said, ‘O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery. Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked. And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun’s heat. Then Shaytaan whispered to him, saying: ‘O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that shall never waste away?’ Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.” [Ta-Ha 20:116-121] When Nooh prayed for his kaafir son, Allaah rebuked him for doing so, and taught him that this person was not a member of his family, and that this prayer was not a righteous deed on his part. So Nooh sought forgiveness from his Lord, repented and returned to Allaah: “Nooh said: ‘O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.’” [Hood 11:47 – interpretation of the meaning]. When Dawood realized that he had been too quick to judge, without listening to what the second disputant had to say, he hastened to repent: “… and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allaah) in repentance.” [Saad 38:24 – interpretation of the meaning]. Everyone, even the Prophets, is in need of the forgiveness of Allaah. Allaah has blessed His Prophets by forgiving their sins, and He has blessed our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as He said (interpretation of the meaning): “That Allaah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favour upon you, and guide you on the Straight Path.” [al-Fath 48:2] Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said, in al-Fataawaa 10/296, “Concerning the issue of forgiveness of the Prophets’ sins: Allaah, may He be exalted, does not speak of any Prophet in the Qur’aan, except He also mentions repentance and seeking forgiveness. For example, Adam and his wife said: ‘Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers.” [al-A’raaf 7:23 – interpretation of the meaning]. Nooh said: “O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.’” [Hood 11:47 – interpretation of the meaning]. Ibraaheem said: “Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents, and (all) the Believers on the Day when the reckoning will be established.” [Ibraaheem 14:41 – interpretation of the meaning] and “… You are our wali (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us, for You are the Best of those who forgive. And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have turned unto You…” [al-A’raaf 7:155-156 – interpretation of the meaning]. Moosa said: ‘…You are our wali (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us, for You are the Best of those who forgive.’ [al-A’raaf 7:155 – interpretation of the meaning]. Then he [Ibn Taymiyah, may Allaah have mercy on him] gave further examples, but what we have mentioned here is sufficient. And Allaah knows best. Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:37 pm TLG. Sis, Wewe ni mwendawazimu, Usi ucheze na moto nakwambia lady lol. A friend of mine told me that line. I don't speak swahili of course. Anon can appreciate if you translate that with little lols in it. He is resourceful too. You never know. Sweetgirl. Why not wait for Anon to answer that sis. Can't tell sis. You guys are trouble makers. I wish the lay out was different ladies.
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| | Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:39 pm JB. Jazakallaahu walaal. That was really beneficial.
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| | Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 02:28 pm "Anon, Thanks for the link." you're welcome. "You should have provided it long ago." i didn't have to. what the Quran says is enough for me-----that prophet ibrahim was a man of truth. ;-) "what do we say to the submitters when they argue "if hadith fits their quranic way of understanding it is okey" and "If it doesn't fit" "then it is out of the window"." i don't care about what they say. ;-) "Talk about the finality of messengerhood for example. The verse namely says "prophethood" and not "messengerhood" thus Submitter claims why bother the Ahadith." but a messanger is a prophet, right? ;-) "Asad, the defence is that a messenger has to be a prophet first then becomes a messenger." right. "Tha logic together with the ahadith of the prophet that clearly tell the finality of messengership don't suffice submitters." again, that is their business. ;-) "Ahadith are simply rejected by the Submitters and what is left then?" well, we have muslims rejecting what the Quran is saying here, right? ;-) "Your/our explanation of first prophethood then messengership." what i'm saying is since a messanger is a prophet also, muhammad is the last prophet as well as the last messanger. "Put that in light of what we have here." okay. "Are you and your Abusamad wrong here in your take on the issue or the rest of the muslims are wrong? Some thoughts eh?." well, we have contradiction here. when that happens, i take the Quran before any thing else. "No one will have faith in Hadith if people followed the logic of submitters since they have their own way of understanding of the Quran. If there was an excuse given to someone simply he/she understands the Quran differently, then submitters would have gotten their way and thus would have made many people gone astray as they gone astray." again, that is their business. i'm not concern about them. ;-) "We can not follow the verdict of everyone or what he/she thinks is right." yes, we have what Allah says------that ibrahim is a man of truth, prophet. i follow this and i believe this saying is right. ;-) "Ok I have no clue about what's going on and I really do not want to read everyone's comments" okay "I sense a little friction between FG and Anon aka asad what's up guys?" it comes with the territory and it is okay. ;-) "FG, brother, I would have agreed with you, but i'm not sure how many people are out there who cut and paste a whole paragh and embede "lols". So it is possible that they just laugh at everything that is said." not everything; just what is written and said about me. i don't take things people say about me serious so i just laugh at them as you figured out, but i don't know why people have problem with the way i react to things here!. ;-) sometimes people questioned me and ask me: "Anon, come on brotherman. What do you mean u didn't find it funny?" Besides you said you don't take anything written here seriously. You just laugh at them. So come on....laugh at it...it was funny." and another time they surprise that why i laugh the things i don't take serious! ;-) "Anon: Interesting Page." i thought so too. ;-) "Did you make it?" i wish i did. ;-) "I couldn't help notice the total absence of Hadith." yes, but it had Quranic verses. ;-) "I read it non the less." good. "I will take one (authentic) word from our beloved Rasool over a million words by any other man." me too, but the difference between you and me is that i take the Quranic saying before anything people say. ;-) "It is just like the rasool said, Ibrahim lied three times, twice for the sake of Allah and one for the sake of sarah." i have what Allah said and ordered the prophet to say-----i don't believe prophets lie; mislead people. prophets do not do things for the sake of people. prophets do things for the sake of Allah only and Allah does not accept lies from His prophets. prophets do not commit sin. "We have gone round in circles many times." yes. "Every time i say, to myself this is my last time.. and then i see another way to approach the topic." but this the verses of Allah are facing you and there is no where to get around them, no matter who many hadeeth and your logic that says prophet are allowed to mislead their people. -----"And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". ;-) "All along hoping that this explanation will help you to accept the authentic hadith and the views of our great scholars." i accept the Quran before anything else. the Quran is authentic enough for me always, esp....when things say different things. ;-) "I also agree with what you wrote above, Prophet do not indulge in "common lies"." that is right; they don't and they don't mislead as you told us they do before. ;-) "Before i paste a question i got from Islam-qa let me mention that the translation of quran on that page is wrong." okay, but do you know that all the translatioins of the Quran are all not free from error. "Unless it is an interpretation of Yusuf Ali's word!!!" especially, the yufus ali's translations. ;-) "On that page we read "No prophet could (ever) act dishonestly if any person acts dishonestly he shall" (003.161 YUSUFALI) Actual words are 003.161 YUSUFALI: No prophet could (ever) be false to his trust.If any person is so false. 'Being false to his trust' refers to embezzlement(Ghulul)." either cases, the prophet do not do any dishonest thing, including lying. ;-) "I can see why the author would like to change the words." what about the other auther you used (yusuf ali)? ;-) "If you ask me this is what we call "common tactic" or "common deception" or plainly put cheap shot" that is your suspection. you do not know for fact that he is doing what you called "common deception", do you? ;-) "It is not the part of a Prophet (it is incompatible with the office of a prophet) to hide ANYTHING AWAY; he who hides ANYTHING AWAY, he shall bring forth on Day of Judgement what he had hidden away (and shall be publicly exposed; with the curse and sin thereof he shall be loaded), then shall each one be rapaid in full wht he has earned and they shall not be wronged" but the prophets are due to be exalted to the highest pinnacle of honour and glory; how then can an act of dishonest( cheating, lying, misleading) find a place in their spiritual preaching? ;-) you see, the islamic conception of prophethood is entirely different from the biblical descreption of the prophets------ascribing to them all manner of evil deeds (including lying) and acts of the filthiest nature, but a prophet, acording to the Quranic sense of the term, is himself sinless and pure before purifying others. ;-) "Sis, Wewe ni mwendawazimu, Usi ucheze na moto nakwambia lady lol. A friend of mine told me that line. I don't speak swahili of course. Anon can appreciate if you translate that with little lols in it. He is resourceful too. You never know." i'm sure i'll laught at it---whatever it says---- especially if it was intended for me.
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| | Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 09:15 pm Anon: How do you explain the following verses with regards to minor sins and infallibility? Allah forgave him Dawood? Since your here i thought you might be able to correct and purify the understanding of the misguided muslims. Those guys (as the link you provided suggest) Ibn Kathir, ath-tabari and the rest have it all wrong. Please enlighten us ANON! YUSUFALI: 38: (24-26) (David) said(immediately without listening to the opponent): "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes: truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other: Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him: he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah: for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.
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| | Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 11:20 pm ANON. If Quran comes first for anyone, Both the Quran and the Hadith are "religion" for us. Huge difference between those inflicted with their own desire of translating the Quran as they want and those who look into the explanation of the Prophet pbuh. "16:44, {And We have sent down unto you the revelations that you might make clear to humankind that which has been sent down to them.}" If ONE doesn't accept the authentic Hadith because he/she is too good to seek guidance in the prophet's teachings, WE AREN'T. WE UNDERSTAND THE QURAN THE WAY HE THOUGHT IT. We understand what some of the prophets did and don't see any imperfection in it. If we understood the verses differently, We would have called prophet moses A KILLER, Adam a disobidient prophet, and so forth. NONE of their mistakes bring our judgement on those prophets and make them what they aren't. We are not sickened and TEACH A SAXIX HADITH GOES AGAINST THE QURAN WHEN IT DOESN'T. We don't suspect the prophet would teach something that goes against the Quran as a desirous one might have suspected. Why would someone deny a saxix Hadith IF his THOUGHTS WEREN'T THAT?. 42:52-53, (. . . and surely you guide unto a straight path. The path of Allah . . .). Allah commanded us to fully submit to the authority of his messenger. "4:65, {But nay, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge of what is in dispute between them, then they shall find in themselves no dislike of that which you have decreed, and submit in full submission.} How would you accept the judgement of the prophet if you think his HADITH GOES AGAINST THE QURAN?. The Quran heavily teaches the authority of the prophet and that to obey Allah is to obey his messenger. "33:36, {It is not for a believing man nor a believing women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, to have the choice in their affair; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has surely gone astray" May Allah cure you walaal for you are in need of his wisdom in this matter. PS: Walaal be careful of what you say inadvertently. In the end, we will have to do what is neccessary to PROTECT THE SUNNA OF THE PROPHET from any desirous evil mind that accuse the sunna to have imperfections like submitters who unfortunatly use the same excuse as yours. Do you believe their refuge BEHIND THE QURAN has a grain of truth IN IT?. You wouldn't have argued with them if you believed their word.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 06:38 am "Anon: How do you explain the following verses with regards to minor sins and infallibility?" lying while preaching islam is not a minor sin. "Allah forgave him Dawood?" dauud didn't commit sin nor did he disobey Allah. "Since your here i thought you might be able to correct and purify the understanding of the misguided muslims." well, any muslim who rejects the words of Allah (that prophet ibrahim was a man of truth) is a misguided muslim. i'm not able to purify no one. ;-) "Those guys (as the link you provided suggest) Ibn Kathir, ath-tabari and the rest have it all wrong." those guys and ibn kathir, ath-tabari and the rest of people (including you and me) can go wrong. on one is infallible. "Please enlighten us ANON!" first, Allah said that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. what Allah said makes clear to me and enlightens me, because Allah's words is never go wrong; Allah's words are Infallible. ;-) as to the verses you cited, prophet dauud just IMAGINED IN HIS RIGHTEORSNESS after the brothers left. then, he realized Allah had tried him through this incident. then, dauud asked forgiveness of his Lord for what he, judging himself by his own standard, considered himself guilty (INAGINED IN HIS RIGHTEOSNESS), but prophet dauud didn't preach lies; didn't mislead anyone; he judged people correctly. Allah protects his prophets when they are about to commit sins; when they IMAGINE something that is not their character. many times, Allah protected prophet muhammad when he IMAGINED something in his preaching islam. take the example of surah ABASA and the blind man. the prophets do not commit sins or disobey Allah. that is the understanding of islam, so the difference between you and me is that i don't believe that prophets commit sin; i don't believe that if they mislead (lie to) people while preaching islam is okay. i believe Allah protects his prophets and prophets do ask forgiveness all the times, even if they do not commit sins. ;-) "ANON. If Quran comes first for anyone" it should. the Quran should be first. "Both the Quran and the Hadith are "religion" for us." yes, but the Quran should be first. "Huge difference between those inflicted with their own desire of translating the Quran as they want and those who look into the explanation of the Prophet pbuh." Allah told to the prophet to recite/preach this: "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". those who do not accept this preaching by the prophet are the ones inflicted with something. ;-) "If ONE doesn't accept the authentic Hadith because he/she is too good to seek guidance in the prophet's teachings, WE AREN'T. WE UNDERSTAND THE QURAN THE WAY HE THOUGHT IT." when there are difference sayings in the teachings of the Quran and the hadeeth, the only true authentic sayings is the one in the Quran. ---------------------ibrahim was a lair Vs ibrahim was a man of truth--------------------- "We understand what some of the prophets did and don't see any imperfection in it." Allah the prophets of Allah were PERFECT-----sinless. they preach didn't lies, didn't do disohonest act; they judged correctly; they did not mislead people. errors they commit were not sins. even if i do mistake, it is not sin. even if i killed a person by mistake, i'm not going to be a killer in the sight of Allah. ;-) "If we understood the verses differently, We would have called prophet moses A KILLER, Adam a disobidient prophet, and so forth. NONE of their mistakes bring our judgement on those prophets and make them what they aren't. We are not sickened and TEACH A SAXIX HADITH GOES AGAINST THE QURAN WHEN IT DOESN'T." it does not matter what you say to about them. you can go agaist the Quran; you can say they *misled* people while preaching or they lied, but what you say about them, would not make them guilty. the fact is that prophets in the Quran (unlike the bible and torah) do not do these things you and others accuse of them and again when musa mistakenly punched that guy (and he died), musa was not a *prophet* nor musa intended to kill the guy. and when adam disobey Allah, he was no *prophet*. ;-) "We don't suspect the prophet would teach something that goes against the Quran as a desirous one might have suspected." that is right. the prophet would not go against what he was told to recite and preach. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet". "Why would someone deny a saxix Hadith IF his THOUGHTS WEREN'T THAT?" this does make sense. why ould someone deny something he believed it to be saxiis hadeeth, you asked. well, he does not. rather, he believes something else he is 100% sure to be saxiis sayings------what is in the Quran that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. "And mention thou (o muhammad) in the Book---ibrahim. He was a man of truth, a prophet" surah maryam 41. "How would you accept the judgement of the prophet if you think his HADITH GOES AGAINST THE QURAN?" well, saying his hadeeth does not make it his hadeeth. unlike you, i believe the prophet would not go against what he was told to preach. ;-) "May Allah cure you walaal" and the same to you. ;-) "for you are in need of his wisdom in this matter." yes, i need it. ;-) "PS: Walaal be careful of what you say inadvertently." same to you. "In the end, we will have to do what is necessary to PROTECT THE SUNNA OF THE PROPHET from any desirous evil mind that accuse the sunna to have imperfections" yes, you do your thing and i do my thing and in the end, we will do what is necessary. if you are protecting saxiix hadeeth, i'm not protecting anything; i'm pointing out the saxiis sayings in the Quran to any desirous evil mind that accuse the prophets of Allah to have imperfections; to have lied; to have misled people while preaching. ;-) "like submitters who unfortunatly use the same excuse as yours." those who deny what the Quran says are more unfortunate than any group. ;-) "Do you believe their refuge BEHIND THE QURAN has a grain of truth IN IT?." i don't care. "You wouldn't have argued with them if you believed their word." i believe what the Quran says and i don't believe what goes against it. ;-)
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 08:06 am ANON walaal (is that how you spell it?) You have not explained the verses i asked you to. give it another try. Adam (PBUH) was a prophet when he eat from the tree. Have no doubt about that. If you say he was not a prophet then please bring forth your proof. I already told you before the Islamic definition of a Prophet is a person whom Allah communicated with. Either by way of an angel or directly. I ask you for quranic proof (since you do not trust hadith) 1)define a prophet? 2)when does one become a prophet? 3) where in the quran does it say the prophets do not fall into sins (minor)? We have the answers from Islamic scholars already perhaps you have a new innovative (aka biddah) way of defining this. These are simple questions.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 08:13 am I asked you Since your here i thought you might be able to correct and purify the understanding of the misguided muslims. Anon says well, any muslim who rejects the words of Allah (that prophet ibrahim was a man of truth) is a misguided muslim. i'm not able to purify no one. ;-) I did not ask you to purify anyone ANON. I suggest that you read the full sentence before you answer. I have noticed you often twist things around. Akhi remain silent or answer honestly
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 09:29 am Assalamu alaicum, I cannot beleave this. I do not read the thread anymore but I want say something. Anon you are discussing the quran in a puplic place and you saying ''I do not care, and you too,' like you are in a play ground. I do not want offend you but bro take the advice offered to you. I know you have this way of not finishing the sentence. I even remeber one time I was trying to explain charity in Islam, and you were so stoborned. I even realised that day that you were mixing up the Zakat and mere charity but I kept quiete. Bro I think you are a good brother but sometimes you have to use your faith and stop this aimless argument. I amnot taking sides wallahe but bro even your commonts are irritating. why not say whatever you want say without cutting and passing other poeple's writing. Anon, bro I like you for the sake of Allah, but stop this. Your's sister in Islam Aro
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 09:44 am "ANON walaal (is that how you spell it?) spell what? "You have not explained the verses i asked you to. give it another try." i told you that dauud didn't commit any sin nor did he disobey Allah. unlike you, i don't believe that verse say he did sin or disobeyed Allah. maybe you can show me where these verses say he committed sin or disobedience. ;-) "Adam (PBUH) was a prophet when he eat from the tree." who told you this? ;-) the Quran or hadeeth do not say that. where did you get your information, jb? ;-) "Have no doubt about that." i have no doubt that prophets do not commmit sin. Allah protects them. "If you say he was not a prophet then please bring forth your proof." since you don't have doubt that adam was a prophet----when he was *disoboying* and was going *astray*, why don't you bring a verse that says that or hadeeth? ;-) "I already told you before the Islamic definition of a Prophet is a person whom Allah communicated with. Allah communicated with many beings. Either by way of an angel or directly. I ask you for quranic proof (since you do not trust hadith)" lol------since you don't truth hadith. ;-) jb, maybe you do not know that Allah communicated with hawa (adam's wife) too------them, does that mean she was a prophetess too? ;-) you see, adam and his wife knew very well that Allah had told them they must not even go near that tree, but iblis kept on and on at them to eat the tree. he tempted them and they ate the tree. "Shall I guide you to the Tree of Immortality and the Eternal Kingdom?" He said to them: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals." He (Satan) swore by Allah to them both saying: "Verily I am one of the sincere well wishers for you both." (7:20-21) "So he (Satan) misled them with deception." (7:22) Allah said: "Thus did Adam *disobey* his Lord so he went *astray*." (20:121). would a prophet *disobey* and go *astray*? "1)define a prophet? 2)when does one become a prophet? "3) where in the quran does it say the prophets do not fall into sins (minor)? We have the answers from Islamic scholars already perhaps you have a new innovative (aka biddah) way of defining this. These are simple questions." a prophet is someone Allah selects and tells him to preach islam. he is sent to people in order to guide them to the truth. agian, jb, the islamic conception of prophethood is entirely different from the biblical descreption of the prophets------ascribing to them all manner of evil deeds (including lying, cheating, misleading) and acts of the filthiest nature, but a prophet, acording to the Quranic sense of the term, is himself sinless and pure before purifying others. ;-) there is nowhere in the Quran that says prophets commit sins or have committed, jb. i mean, someone who is in *desobediance* and someone who goes *astray* can not guide anyone, can he? before he becomes a prophet, he must get pure himself and get protection and purification from Allah before purifying others, get it? ;-) "Anon says well, any muslim who rejects the words of Allah (that prophet ibrahim was a man of truth) is a misguided muslim. i'm not able to purify no one. ;-) I did not ask you to purify anyone ANON. I suggest that you read the full sentence before you answer." i didn't say you asked me to purify anyone. i just stated i am unable to do that. ;-) "I have noticed you often twist things around." you noticed wrong, jb. ;-) "Akhi remain silent" lol------remain silent. "or answer honestly" i did. ;-)
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 10:03 am TO: all the so called intectuals, who know nothing more than checking other words, but not seeking knowledge from the currenty topic which atracted all of them. Sorry I am not fluent in Inglish. war ummad yahay mucjisu ayaan ku arkay ummadda somaliyeed. Lagama yaabo in labo qof ay sheeko ama arin ama dood isla wadaan iyadoon mowduucii laga bixin ama ku kala tegin. kan aqoonta leh iyo kan aan aqoonta lahayn waa isku garaad. Arraweelo ayaa arin furtay waxay hadda maraysaa in dadkii is yiri aqoon baad u leedihiin suaashaan oo qofkaas u faaideeya in iyagii dab iyo dhagax isku noqdeen. aqoontu haddaysan magansan caqli, tixgelin, qadarin xushmad iyo aadaab wax ma kordhiso. fasalka seddexaa markaan dhiganaayey ayaa waxaa farbarasho naloo dhgijiran maahmaahyo carbeed. waxaan ka xasuustaa (al-cilmo bilaa adabi ka-l- shajaru bilaa thimir), macnaheedu yahay cilmi aan edab lahayn waa sida geed aan miro lahayn. iga raali noqda haddaan af adkaaday. bal bog kasto akhriya oo ila fiiriya arinta aan inku tilmaamay haddaan ku khaldanahay. Ajaanibta leh heerka aqooneed aad leedihiin ma murmaan mana daba galaan qofka, ee anaga maxaa na doorshay? haddaan doodiina wax ka dhaho ka warama. nabi Ibraahim been ha sheego ama yuusan yeeshin ee weli ma iswaydiiseen: Illahay saaxiib ma ka dhigtaa been low? ha duu ka dhigtayna Ilaah ma beenlow baa? mase xil saartaa fulay, dad dile,etc? Ilaahay quraankiisa waxuu ku sheegay in diintani tahay xujo. waxaan ka wadaa qofka aadamiga ahi ma wada garan karo figradaha, macnaha, ujeedada qoraanka Ilaahay. Fiiri bal figradda quraanku siday waqtiga ula socoto. ( Rabbul mashraqayni wal maqribayni)si bay asxaabihii u fahmaayeen, anaga na si ka casrisan ayaan u fahmaynaa). Xigmadda Ilaahay lama gaari karo. Diintu waxay ku leedahay ha baqin ILAAH BAA KULA JIRA. NAFTUNA WAQTIGEEDA AYAY GO'DAA. WAXAAN ILAAHAY KUU QORIN KUGUMA DHACAYAAN. Haddaba arintu hadday sidaa tahay weligaa ma is waydiisay maxuu nabigeenu waqtiguu haajirayey gaalada godka uga ga dhuuntay? ama maxuu Cali Bin Abii dhalib uu isugu bedelay? miyuu baqay mise? ha hilmaamin in uu dagaalada na goobjoog ka ahaa oo uu ku dhaawac may. waqtigaa nabigu ma ku kalsoonaan waayey erayada Ilaahay(quraanka)? jawaabtu waxay ila tahay MAYA. Ilaah baa og waxuu sidaa u sameeyey. hadaba arimaha nebiyadu kuligoo waa sidaa oo kale. Dhanka tafsiirka diinta waxaan filayaa in aad iyo aad iiga badisaan, balse waa waxaa la ibaray hadii aad rabtid in aad arin jawaabteeda diinta ka raadisid habkaan u fiiri: A- kitaabka quraanka ah ka fiiri jawaabta. hadaad ka waydid B- sunnaha nabiga ka fiiri .haddaad ka waydid C- ijmaaca ka fiiri(xukunkii asxaabta) haddaad ka waydid D- qiyaas isticmaal oo seddexda tii aad qiyaasteeda ka heshid ku xugmi. hadaba qofkii yiraahda xadiiska ma qaadanaayo oo aayad haysta oo okay. ma khaldana. shiicana ma aha. Hadaba walaalayaal goobta ha ka dhiginina cilmi isugu faan iyo is xujayn, ee waxbaan rabnaa in aan idinka barano ee noo ga faa'iideeya suaalaha. miyaan si sahlan loo wada aqoon iyora'yitusin karin iyadoo qof walbaba qolo figradeed raacsan yahay. caadifadda iyo filashada(expectation)hadaan la celin karin ha la yareeyo, si loo kala faa'iidaysto. erayada aad tusaadaha u soo qaadanaysaan maa dabaqdaan sida, (foundation to stand on) (ULLIL-ALBAABI)etc. waxaan idinka baryayaa in aad i cafisaan haddaan meel ka dhacay ama aan af adeegay, ujeedadaydu waxay ahayd in aan idin baraarujiyo si aan wax idiinka faa'iidaysano, waxii dembi xag Alle ah na ALLAHA iga cafiyo. nabaday.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 10:05 am "I cannot beleave this." really? this is the internet, if you didn't know. ;-) "I do not read the thread anymore" really? that is strange. who reads it for you then? ;-) but I want say something." okay. "Anon you are discussing the quran in a puplic place" i thought you said you don't read this thread! "and you saying ''I do not care, and you too,' like you are in a play ground." do you think this place is a sacred like a masjid, arawelo? ;-) i can say i do not care what people do and say about me or about themselves and about the quran, right? ;-) "I do not want offend you but bro take the advice offered to you." who is giving the advice and what did they say and do they take their own advices? ;-) "I know you have this way of not finishing the sentence." lol "I even remeber one time I was trying to explain charity in Islam, and you were so stoborned." i do not remember. were you the one who said giving charity does not have to be for the sake of Allah? i must have pointed out to you that what the Quran says which you thought was stubborn on my part, right? ;-) "I even realised that day that you were mixing up the Zakat and mere charity but I kept quiete." i said anything......zakat or sadaq-----or anything you do should be for the sake of Allah when you are helping others. ;-) "Bro I think you are a good brother" i'm sure that you are a good sister too. "but sometimes you have to use your faith and stop this aimless argument." i use my faith and i point out what the Quran says, but i do not understand that if people like you continue to argue and don't stop their aimless arguments, why don't they take their own advices that they are giving to others? ;-) "I amnot taking sides wallahe but bro even your commonts are irritating." well, i'm not here to cater people's desire and i'm not here to hurt people's feeling. i can not control what people feel. ;-) "why not say whatever you want say without cutting and passing other poeple's writing." it is my style. if people don't like it, that is their business. ;-) "Anon, bro I like you for the sake of Allah" i don't hate anyone. i love everyone, including those who don't hate me. ;-) "but stop this." i do not take orders, though. ;-)
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 10:25 am Look Anon, I expected your reply anyway but to correct you no-one said that charity does not have to be for the sake of Allah. Only Mm was arguing for that kind of argument. But i was saying that the charity has a purpose besides to please Allah. then you said, no it does not. Then, you said Zakat is one of the pilarrs of islam. okey, still you did not get the point. is not sdaqa( charity) different from mere charity. you see Anon when we want say asomething about islam we must make explain the best way we can. anyway, i am not arguing with you know about that and i have to say sorry. forgive if i offend you. but, please do not write back on this.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 11:10 am Assalamu alaikum JB and ANON: I just found out that you are involved in a very interesting discussion about Ibrahim (pbh) and you have also visited a web site made by me "Did Ibrahim tell a lie?" JB had mentioned that I have misquoted Yusuf Ali. I have two editions of Yusuf Ali's translation. One published by Kitab Bhavan, New Delhi, India in 1996. The other edition is printed by Saudi Government. In both the editions, verse 3:161 is printed exactly in the same way that I had posted on my web site. Brother JB has quoted the verse from some other source - may be another edition of Yusuf Ali's. Brother JB, did you get the translation from the Internet? I know of a site which was edited by scholars from South Africa. This is not the same version that Allamah Yusuf Ali wrote. I went with a printed book format instead of a web version. Just a clarification on this point. Obviously, I do not want to deceive people. If some body doubts me to be a submitter, let me clarify that I am a sunni Muslim and I have nothing to do with submitters. May Allah protect me from all types of sins.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 12:00 pm "Look Anon, I expected your reply" i see. "anyway but to correct you no-one said that charity does not have to be for the sake of Allah. Only Mm was arguing for that kind of argument." you did not correct me. you are saying no-one said and you are telling me mm said it.! "But i was saying that the charity has a purpose besides to please Allah." and i said Allah will not accept charity work with it being for His sake. ;-) "then you said, no it does not." i said the purpose should be to please Allah. ;-) "Then, you said Zakat is one of the pilarrs of islam." yes, it is. "okey, still you did not get the point." okay, but i made my point, right? ;-) "is not sdaqa( charity) different from mere charity." sadaqa and sakah could both be charity. "you see Anon when we want say asomething about islam we must make explain the best way we can." people can ask clarification where you need explanation. ;-) "anyway, i am not arguing with you know about that and i have to say sorry." don't be sorry. "forgive if i offend you." you did not. "but, please do not write back on this." lol
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 12:37 pm jb wrote: "If you ask me this is what we call "common tactic" or "common deception" or plainly put cheap shot" anon wrote: "that is your suspection. you do not know for fact that he is doing what you called "common deception", do you? ;-)" abu samad wrote: "JB had mentioned that I have misquoted Yusuf Ali. I have two editions of Yusuf Ali's translation." i do not even have any of yusuf ali's translations. ;-) "One published by Kitab Bhavan, New Delhi, India in 1996. The other edition is printed by Saudi Government. In both the editions, verse 3:161 is printed exactly in the same way that I had posted on my web site." that is interesting. i didn't know that. "Brother JB has quoted the verse from some other source - may be another edition of Yusuf Ali's." maybe yusuf ali has three or more editions of Quranic translations. ;-) "Just a clarification on this point. Obviously, I do not want to deceive people." i didn't see any "common deception" in what you wrote. ;-) "If some body doubts me to be a submitter, let me clarify that I am a sunni Muslim and I have nothing to do with submitters." niether i, but who cares what people accuse of others? ;-) "May Allah protect me from all types of sins." amiin.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 12:52 pm ANON: I'm not sure if Allah communicated with Hawa or not. This is besides the point. The question is, was Adam a prophet at that time or not? If you feel like changing the topic, that is also fine. I'm not sure about Hawa but in the past Muslim scholars have debated if Mary mother of 'Isa (AS) was a prophet or not. If we look at the meaning of the word 'Prophethood' in the language in which Allah (SWT) spoke to us (i.e. Arabic). We find that this word is taken from Inba' (prophecy) which means I'lam (revelation). So whomever Allah (SWT) tells him about what will be before it comes to pass, or reveals to him informing him about a certain matter, then he is a Nabi (prophet) without any doubt. Allah makes to whom it was revealed fully aware and fully knowledgeable of the truthfulness of what was revealed to him. (This revelation) can be transmitted by one of either ways: through an angel that comes to him or through a message directly revealed to him and this is a knowledge from Allah (SWT) to whom He gives, with no transmitter or teacher. Revelation which is Nubuwwa (Prophethood) is meant from Allah (SWT) to inform that to whom it was revealed of what Allah wants to tell him. If you deny that this is the meaning of Prophethood then, teach us its meaning. Bring A single proof. You may be confused by this Ayah " (O Muhammad!) Whenever we sent before you Messengers to whom we have revealed Our messages, they were but men." This is a verse none can deny as nobody claimed that Allah (SWT) sent women Messengers. The issue here is about Prophethood (Nubuwwa) and not Messengership. eg) Jibril told Mary that: "...I am a mere messenger from your Lord and have been sent to give you a pure son." Muslim scholars such as Qurtubi, Ibn Hajjar al-'Asqalani, Imam al-Nawawi, Ibn hazm and other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that a women can be a prophet. Now back to the issue Why do you claim that Adam was not a prophet at the time he sinned? Your definition is closer to the meaning of rasool (messenger). "a prophet is someone Allah selects and tells him to preach islam. he is sent to people in order to guide them to the truth" It seems like you've given yourself a license to say about Islam as you wish!. Again answer my question about prophethood and Adam and infallibility
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 01:38 pm Abusamad. You implied a saxix hadith to be wrong and didn't produce a single salafi scholar who also denied that hadith. Mind telling us who else has the same views of that hadith as you do?. If you are not a submitter, then you have their views of "Not agreeing with the hadith if it goes against their version of tafsiir". When they argue about that, they mean their protection of all the innovations they want to spread. We can't accept their refuge behind the Quran when they are twisted in aim and religion. You got some exlplaining to do.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 01:45 pm Abusamad. I have another Question for you: How do you view Saxix Bukhari and Muslim?. How many other hadiths you don't agree with?.
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| | Monday, January 15, 2001 - 02:49 pm "ANON: I'm not sure if Allah communicated with Hawa or not." unlike you, i'm sure that Allah said He communicated with BOTH ADAM AND HAWA in the Quran: "When THEY *BOTH* tasted of the tree, their private parts became manifest to each other and THEY *BOTH* began to cover themselves with the leaves of the trees (in the garden), and their Lord called THEM saying: Did I not forbid *YOU* *BOTH* from that tree and *TELL* *YOU* that Satan was your avowed enemy. *THEY* said: Our Lord! *WE* have wronged *OURSELVES*. If you forgive *US* not and bestow not upon *US* Your mercy, WE shall surely be of the losers." (7: 23, 24) "This is besides the point." whatever you say. ;-) "The question is, was Adam a prophet at that time or not?" i said prophets do not disobey nor do they go astray. adam did *disobey* and did go *astray* when he was in heaven------after Allah informed BOTH ADAM AND HAWA what not to do while they were in there. "If you feel like changing the topic, that is also fine." not, if you want to continue ;-) "I'm not sure about Hawa but in the past Muslim scholars have debated if Mary mother of 'Isa (AS) was a prophet or not." that is their business. i do not believe hawa was a prophetess; her husband was. ;-) "If we look at the meaning of the word 'Prophethood' in the language in which Allah (SWT) spoke to us (i.e. Arabic). We find that this word is taken from Inba' (prophecy) which means I'lam (revelation). So whomever Allah (SWT) tells him about what will be before it comes to pass, or reveals to him informing him about a certain matter, then he is a Nabi (prophet) without any doubt." a prophet was informed about his prophethood and certain matters do not then go astray nor disobey Allah. Allah protects him from going astray or sinning. ;-) "Allah makes to whom it was revealed fully aware and fully knowledgeable of the truthfulness of what was revealed to him." that is right and Allah protects him from sinning or disobedience----going astray. " (This revelation) can be transmitted by one of either ways: through an angel that comes to him or through a message directly revealed to him and this is a knowledge from Allah (SWT) to whom He gives, with no transmitter or teacher." right. "Revelation which is Nubuwwa (Prophethood) is meant from Allah (SWT) to inform that to whom it was revealed of what Allah wants to tell him." right. "If you deny that this is the meaning of Prophethood then, teach us its meaning. Bring A single proof." i believe i told you what is a prophet. if you do not want to accept it......that is your business. ;-) saying that people had debate weather hawa and maryam were prophetessess or not is not a prophet that anyone who communicated with Allah is a prophet----is not prove enough. ;-) "You may be confused by this Ayah " (O Muhammad!) Whenever we sent before you Messengers to whom we have revealed Our messages, they were but men." no, the ayah is clear to me. ;-) "This is a verse none can deny as nobody claimed that Allah (SWT) sent women Messengers." so what! who is arguing that hawa was a messenger? "The issue here is about Prophethood (Nubuwwa) and not Messengership." where do you get your information that says hawa could be a prophetess? Quran or hadeeth, please. "eg) Jibril told Mary that: "...I am a mere messenger from your Lord and have been sent to give you a pure son." Muslim scholars such as Qurtubi, Ibn Hajjar al-'Asqalani, Imam al-Nawawi, Ibn hazm and other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that a women can be a prophet." do they have Quranic proof or hadeeth---that maryam was a prophetess, jb? ;-) "Now back to the issue Why do you claim that Adam was not a prophet at the time he sinned?" because i believe that prophets of Allah do not go astray; do not commit sins; do not disobey Allah. Allah protects them. ;-) "Your definition is closer to the meaning of rasool (messenger). "a prophet is someone Allah selects and tells him to preach islam. he is sent to people in order to guide them to the truth" muhammad who was both a prophet and a messenger. he was a someone whom Allah selected and told him to preach islam. he was sent to people in order to guide them to the truth. ;-) "It seems like you've given yourself a license to say about Islam as you wish!." yes, as i understand. and you are doing the same things?------your saying that prophet ibrahim *misled* his people----therefore, sinned, right? ;-) "Again answer my question about prophethood and Adam and infallibility" i told you that adam went *astray* and did *disobey*---sinned when he was in heaven, but Allah protects His prophets from going *astray* and any *disobedience.* of their Lord. i'm saying the propehts are not like you and me who go *astray* and commit *disobedience* against their Lord. i'm saying-----Allah protects them doing these things....including lying while preaching. ;-) Allah said: "Thus did Adam *disobey* his Lord so he went *astray*." (20:121). would a prophet *disobey* and go *astray*? unlike you, i don't believe so, jb. ;-)
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| | Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 10:46 am <TLG. Sis, Wewe ni mwendawazimu, Usi ucheze na moto nakwambia lady lol. A friend of mine told me that line. I don't speak swahili of course. Anon can appreciate if you translate that with little lols in it. He is resourceful too. You never know.> Anon, here is the translation of the part of the message that is in Swahili: "sister, you are crazy. Don't play around with this guy." Ofcourse, it is not very accurate. My Swahili though a lil better than my Somali is not that good. Hey FG, resourceful in what? cutting and pasting? I heard (from reliable sources) that ANON was a pre-Med student before he found a career (Cutting and pasting) on Somalinet. Is that true ANON? If so, do you know what condition this cutting and pasting is? I'm sure they have a phrase for it in biological terms. Help me out here.
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| | Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 01:43 pm "Anon, here is the translation of the part of the message that is in Swahili: "sister, you are crazy. Don't play around with this guy." lol-----play around with this guy. ;-) "Hey FG, resourceful in what? cutting and pasting?" well, i think cutting and pasting not what he meant. cutting and pasting is not a resourceful thing(a creative thing). anyone can cut and paste. ;-). you and him do the cutting and pasting too sometimes; i just do it most of the times. maybe you guys are getting paid less money and i'm getting more money for the work of cutting and pasting by somalnet.com. ;-) "I heard (from reliable sources) that ANON was a pre-Med student" you heard wrong. ;-) "before he found a career (Cutting and pasting) on Somalinet." in my new career (tlg's hypothesis), i've not yet received any penny from somalinet.com. btw, how much money have you received so far for the work you did (the cutting and pasting)? ;-) "Is that true ANON? If so, do you know what condition this cutting and pasting is? I'm sure they have a phrase for it in biological terms. Help me out here." i don't know......is it the phrase-----*dissecting* and *stitching*? ;-)
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