     Hani | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 08:49 am
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I want to share this with everyone and hear what their opinions are. But please remember if you dont have anything sensible to say dont say anything at all then.Here it is :
Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam 'ala Rasulillah
READ THIS POEM!
If the Prophet Mohammed visited you,
Just for a day or two,
If he came unexpectedly,
I wonder what you would do.
Oh, I know, you'd give him your nicest room,
To such an honored guest
And all the food you'd serve him,
Would be the very best.
And you would keep assuring him,
You are glad to have him there,
That serving him in your home,
Is joy beyond compare.
But when you saw him coming,
Would you meet him at the door?
With arms outstretched in welcome
To your visitor?
Or would you have to change your clothes,
Before you let him in?
Or hide some magazines and put,
The Quran where they had been?
Would you still watch forbidden movies,
On your TV set?
Or would you rush to switch it off,
Before he gets upset?
Would you turn off the radio,
And hope he hadn't heard?
And hope he hadn't uttered,
The last loud, hasty word?
,
Would you hide your wordly music,
And instead take hadith books out?
Could you let him walk right in,
Or would you rush about?
And, I wonder if the Prophet spent,
A day or two with you,
Would you go right on doing the things,
You always do?
Would you go right on saying the things,
You always say?
Would life for you continue,
As it does from day to day?
Would you keep up each and every prayer,
Without putting on a frown?
And would you always jump up early,
For prayers at dawn?
Would you sing the songs you always sing,
And read the books you read?
And let him know the things on which,
Your mind and spirit feed?
Would you take the prophet with you,
Everywhere you plan to go?
Or would you, maybe, change your plans,
Just for a day or so?
Would you be glad to have him meet,
Your very closest friends?
Or would you hope they'd stay away,
Until his visit ends?
Would you be glad to have him stay,
Forever on and on?
Or would you sigh with great relief,
When he at last was gone?
It might be interesting to know,
The things that you would do,
If the Prophet Mohammed,
In person came,
To spend some time with you!
Think about the poem and act quickly |
| Galool | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 09:42 am
Hani
I will welcome him, offer him a cup of tea and then ask for his autograph! I mean just imagine the value of that signature! Ugh! At least $500 Million I would say. What do you think?
I will then go on a world cruise! What would you do? |
| ANON | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 10:31 am
galool----i heard that he never taken offers (invitations) from atheists; he never had a tea; never knew how to write; never sold his popularity. therefore, since he has never done these before, do you think he will do it now for anoter atheist(you)? |
| The Equalizer | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 11:43 am
Dear Sister Hani,
Salaam A/Laykum to you to,
After greetings, I enjoyed very much reading your thoughtful poem. I would assuredly give him the most warmth welcome ever given to any other human being. As such, I would treat him with the utmost respect, and probably do most of the things you mentioned in your poem. After all, we're told that we should love me more than ourselves or our offsprings.
Having said that, I would ask him questions concerning Islam's standpoint on certain issues that I kept in abeyance for quite sometime. Just to list a few and not to bore you to death. I would ask him to elaborate a bit on Islam's view about the taking of interest or usury. In other words, when is usury considered a sin. Admittedly, during during the life of our beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which entailed charging interest on the goods they sold.
W/Salaam |
| The Equalizer | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 11:46 am
Correction:
After all, we're told to love HIM more than ourselves or our offsprings. |
| ANON | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 04:21 pm
"I would ask him to elaborate a bit on Islam's view about the taking of interest or usury. In other words, when is usury considered a sin. Admittedly, during during the life of our beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which entailed charging interest on the goods they sold."
i don't think the prophet allowed for the muslims to make money out of interest (riba), but i think if you see the prophet and ask him about riba, he will tell you to read the Quran about what is usury: 2:275-----280 |
| The Equalizer | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 12:26 pm
Anon,
Thank you so much for your input. I did read the verses of the Holy Quran that you referred me too. It does warn us against taking usury and its rammifications. That's something that I knew about.
Let's go back to my question for a second. We keep hearing people saying that mortgage interest or interest on loans for instance are usury. However, you see Somali transferring agencies charging interest for remitting money either back home or elsewhere. When you ask them, they say it is 'Khitma.' See, people call similar things with different names. What's the difference between 'Khitma,' interest on loan, etc. They're basically the same. Understandably, when you do a job or provide some service, you expect something in return. Of course, the bank has to play utility bills, rent, wages, etc. As such interest seems justified, right? I strongly believe that even merchants of the past charged interest. In brief, interest is nothing but the extra amount of money added to goods sold.
Such being the case, I believe interest is allowed in Islam to stimulate the local economy; however, when people charge an excessive amount of money it becomes usury or 'riba.' It follows logically where do we draw the line then. In other words, how much is allowable to charge and how much is beyond the allowable limit. I hope now you are getting the gist of my dilemma.
W/Salaam!!! |
| ANON | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 04:23 pm
"I believe interest is allowed in Islam to stimulate the local economy; however, when people charge an excessive amount of money it becomes usury or 'riba.' It follows logically where do we draw the line then. In other words, how much is allowable to charge and how much is beyond the allowable limit. I hope now you are getting the gist of my dilemma."
the equalizer, what you believe is what you believe. i believe the opposite-----that the prophet did not allow for the muslims to earn interest (riba). Allah and the prophet forbade it. i believe riba (interest) is riba (interest)------big or small. you see, i think you are confused with what is bia and what is riba.
bia is a transaction in which the seller offers a commondity for sale (or service) to the buyer for some consideration as price by paying which the buyer takes possession of that commondity.
the seller may have himself or herself produced or manufactured the commodity or brought it for another person.
in either case, he or she charges an additional sum over and above the principble that he or she invested in producing or procuring the thing as compensation for his or her own labor which forms his profit.
riba, on the other hand, is different. a riba (an interest) is when a person lends his or her capital to another on the condition that after a certain time, he or she would charge a fixed amount of money (big or small) in addition to his or her capital.
this additional amount, which is interest or riba, is a consideration not of any labour or commondity but of the time for which the principal has been borrowed.
even in bai if the payment of the price of a commodity is deferred on the condition tha tin the case of non-payment on the fixed date the prise will be increased, this will mean interest or riba. there is nother very important difference between bia and riba.
while in a commercial transcation the seller may gain the MAXIMUM amount of profit which has to be paid by the buyer only once, in a transaction involving riba, the creditor receives profit over his or her capital continuously, the amount of the profit increasing as the time passes. the profit of the debtor gained out of the capital borrowed will be definite, the profit of the creditor will be indefinite and may engulf within its octopus-like grip all that the debtor possesses besides the ccaptil borrowed by him or her.
again, the difference between bia and riba is that while in bai, the transaction is complete with the exchange of commodity and price, and the buyer has not to return anything to the seller which is likely to be consumed (in case of the renting of a house or land the same is not to be consumed in any way and is returned intact), in the transcation involving riba, the debtor, after having utilised or consumed the captial, has to produce it anew for repayment to the creditor along with an additional amount of interest. |
| MAD MAC | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 11:52 pm
What would I do. Man would I have a lot of questions. Since he doesn't speak English I'd need an arabic translator.
No I wouldn't change my house. Obviously if it was Friday night I wouldn't go clubbing unless he wanted to go (pretty hard for me to imagine). You get a couple of days with the undivided attnetion of one of the greater known historical figures in the world you adjust your plans accordingly. You don't want to waste it.
Man, I could have some great debates with Asad then. I could actually quote Mohammed from person. Can't beat that!!!!!
But I have to admit if I could meet any historical figure it would have to be Jesus. The historical accounts of him are so varied that I would love to get his version, straight from the horses mouth. Mohammed is second, Bhudda is third, Joseph Smith is fourth and Adolf Hitler is fifth. What would REALLY be cool is if I could talk with Bhudda, Jesus and Mohammed all at the same time. Alas, none of this is going to happen. |
| ANON | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 12:27 am
"What would I do. Man would I have a lot of questions. Since he doesn't speak English I'd need an arabic translator."
and if your questoins are in the form of the written words, he would need (beside the translator) someone who would scribe for him, right?
"No I wouldn't change my house."
you don't have to.
"Obviously if it was Friday night I wouldn't go clubbing unless he wanted to go (pretty hard for me to imagine)."
yes, i would not imagine either. i would imagine that there would not be any clubs where the prophet would be. so you would be out of luck (even if you wanted to go clubbing).
"Man, I could have some great debates with Asad then. I could actually quote Mohammed from person. Can't beat that!!!!!"
if you have not by that time accepted islam after talking to the prophet, asad would still be caughting your lies about islam and the prophet.
"But I have to admit if I could meet any historical figure it would have to be Jesus."
if someone is coming back, i beleive jesus is the only prophet coming back to the earth.
"The historical accounts of him are so varied that I would love to get his version, straight from the horses mouth."
if you are alive by the time he comes to the earth, you have to go to somewhere in the middle east to hear him talk in person.
"Mohammed is second, Bhudda is third, Joseph Smith is fourth and Adolf Hitler is fifth. What would REALLY be cool is if I could talk with Bhudda, Jesus and Mohammed all at the same time. Alas, none of this is going to happen."
yes, none of this is going to happen, and even if you still have not given up the belief of *reincarnation* (which you said you beleive) these people (excluding jesus) would not come back to the earth, i beleive. |
| MAD MAC | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 03:36 am
Asad
I did not say I believe in reincranation - I said I don't exclude the possibility. Not quite the same thing. My girlfriend believes in it though. And because her ex-husband was a slovenly dude who has never held a steady job in his life, she's convinced he is coming back as a Buffalo, which I admit has a sort of ironic justice to it, even if I don't neccessarily buy into that. |
| ANON | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 09:00 am
"Asad, I did not say I believe in reincranation - I said I don't exclude the possibility."
if pharaoh and hilter would have came back as themselves (and you met them after their resurrection), what would you ask them?
"My girlfriend believes in it though. And because her ex-husband was a slovenly dude who has never held a steady job in his life, she's convinced he is coming back as a Buffalo, which I admit has a sort of ironic justice to it, even if I don't neccessarily buy into that."
i believe the only resurrection that will happen in the future which will bring a *true justice* is when everyone (including you and your girlfriend and her ex-husband) are waken up from death (brought back to life ) in order to face justice in the day of judgement (which you said you don't believe). i mean, did not you say in somewhere that there is no reason for Allah to provide a set of circumstances in which our faith in Allah and our actions is critical to some punishment or reward? in other word, you don't believe setting up rules is not justice? didn't you say why would Allah establish a law on earth? my question to you is this: are you saying men like *pharaoh and hilter* (who followed not what Allah wanted from them) would not have to face justice in the day of judegment----or would escape from justice? i mean, do not you believe that to punish these people would be contradiction------since you don't believe that Allah is both Just and Merciful at the same time? |
| ANON | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 09:02 am
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"Asad, I did not say I believe in reincranation - I said I don't exclude the possibility."
if pharaoh and hilter would have came back as themselves (and you met them after their resurrection), what would you ask them?
"My girlfriend believes in it though. And because her ex-husband was a slovenly dude who has never held a steady job in his life, she's convinced he is coming back as a Buffalo, which I admit has a sort of ironic justice to it, even if I don't neccessarily buy into that."
i believe the only resurrection that will happen in the future which will bring a *true justice* is when everyone (including you and your girlfriend and her ex-husband) are waken up from death (brought back to life ) in order to face justice in the day of judgement (which you said you don't believe). i mean, did not you say in somewhere that there is no reason for Allah to provide a set of circumstances in which our faith in Allah and our actions is critical to some punishment or reward? in other word, you don't believe the setting up rules by Allah is justice? didn't you say why would Allah establish a law on earth? my question to you is this: are you saying men like *pharaoh and hilter* (who followed not what Allah wanted from them) would not have to face justice in the day of judegment----or would escape from justice? i mean, do not you believe that to punish these people would be contradiction------since you don't believe that Allah is both Just and Merciful at the same time? |
| The Equalizer | Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:16 pm
Dear Anon,
At the outset, I would like to make crystal clear that I'm not a rocket science when it comes to matters of religion. Nonetheless, Allah Almighty has granted the gift of reasoning, I'll make the most of it in our discussion (Insha Allah).
In your writing, you juxtaposed Riba or usury with Bia making a fine distinction between the two. You said usury is the forbidden one. You explained that it’s the interest charged on loaned out money. On the other hand, Bia or profit…you said is the money gained when a business transaction is consumed. I hope this sums up fairly what you wrote.
Having said that, I would like to draw to your attention some of things I disagree with you and why. First of all, do you know that money has a time value. In other words, over time money itself gets depreciated; as such, it loses most of its original value. That is due to some financial factors such as inflation. Such being the situation, some banking institutions say the interest they charge is justified. I’m tempted to agree with them on this. Not only do they’ve to suffer devaluation over time, but they even forfeit other benefits. It’s illogical to believe that they’ll have their money tied up for sometime without reaping any benefit from it.
That is that. As for the Bia, I’m a bit flabbergasted at your explanation. You said it’s allowed, yet you didn’t expound on it. In other words, you didn’t tell me where the line is drawn. I’m sure if someone takes your explanation at face value, it will certainly be subject to abuses. For example, merchants can charge as much as they like and still claim it’s Bai rather than Riba.
In brief, based on what we’ve seen, I believe there’s a skin-deep difference between Riba and Bai. As such, a definite and conclusive answer is required and soon. It’s not as simple as saying charging 2% more than what cost you qualifies it as a profit. Anything more than the 2% is committing Riba. I wish it was that simply, but is not.
W/Salaam!!! |
| ANON | Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 08:20 pm
"Dear Anon, At the outset, I would like to make crystal clear that I'm not a rocket science when it comes to matters of religion. Nonetheless, Allah Almighty has granted the gift of reasoning, I'll make the most of it in our discussion (Insha Allah)."
i'm not a rocket science either, but i read the Quran and accept what the Quran says. 2:275-----280. unlike you, i don't believe the prophet to have made riba halaal for muslims . if you have evidence to prove your sayings, i would like to see where the prophet approved of interest-----hadeeth.
"In your writing, you juxtaposed Riba or usury with Bia making a fine distinction between the two. You said usury is the forbidden one. You explained that it’s the interest charged on loaned out money."
that is correct. loan taken out of interest is forbidden in islam. you believe the opposite.
"On the other hand, Bia or profit…you said is the money gained when a business transaction is consumed. I hope this sums up fairly what you wrote.
it does.
"Having said that, I would like to draw to your attention some of things I disagree with you and why."
okay.
"First of all, do you know that money has a time value. In other words, over time money itself gets depreciated; as such, it loses most of its original value. That is due to some financial factors such as inflation."
yes, i know that money looses value sometimes when there is inflation, but still if i lend you $100 today on the condition that after a certain time, i would charge a fixed amount of money (big or small) in addition to the $100--------that is haraam and that is what the banks do.
"Such being the situation, some banking institutions say the interest they charge is justified. I’m tempted to agree with them on this."
well, they or anyone can justify riba all they want, but it is still haraam and i agree with the saying of Quran and the hadeeth about that kind of justifications being haraam.
"Not only do they’ve to suffer devaluation over time, but they even forfeit other benefits. It’s illogical to believe that they’ll have their money tied up for sometime without reaping any benefit from it."
the equalizer, maybe what you do not know is that money-lending is neither a professon nor a trade. it is not a profession since it calls for no special education or technical knowledge. it is not a trade since there is no sale of any kind in it. it is an occupation, and one of the dirties since it takes mean advantage of human distress and thrives on it. those who are engaged in this business, are as a rule callously mean, who find that the easiest way of increasing their riches is by taking advantage of people in distress who may safely be dominated and bullied.
"That is that. As for the Bia, I’m a bit flabbergasted at your explanation. You said it’s allowed, yet you didn’t expound on it. In other words, you didn’t tell me where the line is drawn."
the equalizer, you say Allah Almighty has granted the gift of reasoning to you, but you don't know the difference between the two (bai and riba).!!!
i mean, don't you know that the Author of all laws, physical as well as moral (Allah), has allowed the one (bai) and disallowed the other (riba)?
what greater difference could there conceivably be between any two things which Allah made it different?
the equalizer, you see, while bai (trade, commercail, industrail or agricultural transcations) a person reaps the profit of his labour and intellect; in the transactions involving riba (interest--usury) person has a loin's share in the income of his or her debtor by lending him or her-----his or her surplus capital. the lender (in riba) is not a proportionate partner both in gain and loss, but he or she is a partner entitled to profit irrespective of the fact wether the debtor is benefiting by the transaction or not, and in the case of gain, without any reference to the extent of that gain. such are the reasons on account of which Allah has allowed bia and disallowed riba. there are ethical reasons too, besides these: riba inculcates niggardliness, selfishness, cruelty, worship of wealth and other similar vices. riba destroys the spirit of sympathy and mutual help and co-operation. it is well known to the expert in the principles of economic science all the effects of riba. even the remotest and the most innocent form of riba is derogatory to the fair face of ethicals. that is why Allah so forcefully declares in the Quran: "O you who believe! fear Allah, and give up what remains of (your demand for) usury, if you are indeed believers. if you do it not, then take notice of WAR from Allah and His prophet. And if you do repent (for your past wrongs), you shall have your capital back. Deal not UNJUSTILY (to your fellow-men) and you shall not be dealt with UNJUSTISLY" 2:278-9
"I’m sure if someone takes your explanation at face value, it will certainly be subject to abuses. For example, merchants can charge as much as they like and still claim it’s Bai rather than Riba."
i can abuse anything (legal or illegal), but does that mean the things i abused are always the same, the equalizer?
"In brief, based on what we’ve seen, I believe there’s a skin-deep difference between Riba and Bai."
well, as i said it before-------"what you believe is what you believe. i believe the opposite of what you believe. i believe that the prophet did not allow for the muslims to earn interest (riba)----that Allah and the prophet forbade riba. i believe riba (interest) is riba (interest)------big or small. i think you are confused with the differnece between what is bia and what is riba.
"As such, a definite and conclusive answer is required and soon. It’s not as simple as saying charging 2% more than what cost you qualifies it as a profit. Anything more than the 2% is committing Riba. I wish it was that simply, but is not."
unlike you, the Quran, the equalizer, the Quran is simple enough for me and it the answer for me.
"Those who devour usury (riba--interest) shall not be able to stand (upon rising from their graves on the Day of Resurrection) except as stands he whom satan has confounded with his touch (like possessed persons, distracted and horro-stricken, with their bodies in violent convulsions). This is because they say: 'trade is but as usury' (trading also has gain and profit as its object, and it is admittedly lawful; then why not usury?): whereas Allah has ALLOWED TRADE and has FORBIDDEN USURY. So he who receives an admonition from his Lord, and has desisted (from usurious dealings and from thinking them legal), may keep(the profit of) what is past (the interest already received prior to the prohibitation and he shall not called upon to repay what he has already taken. so far with the legal aspect of the question) and his affair (of conscience) is with Allah (who alone knows whether one's penitence is genuine of fake) but he who reverts (to usury)----such shall be the inmates of the Fire, therein they (whose who consider these dealings still legal) shall abide"--2:275. |
| The Equalizer | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 03:56 am
Dear Anon,
I perfectly see where you’re coming from and respect that. I wish we could see eye to eye on this issue of usury, but clearly we don’t. As a matter of fact, the more I compare Bai with Riba, the stronger the similarities are. Don’t get me wrong, as far as your definitions are concerned, there’re remarkable differences. Yet, on the practical side, the differences are on the gray side.
Like you, I read the Holy Koran daily. I’ve read sura Al-Baqara. As such, I know it’s a grave sin to commit usury. I also agree that Allah Almighty knows where to draw the line. In other words, He knows the difference between the two. But, I’m talking about us, humans, where we should draw the line. I keep hearing people accusing merchants of being usury takers, if you will just because they overcharged them. Yet, the question is how much overcharging is considered Riba and how much is allowable under the Islamic Shari’a.
You keep quoting from the suras of the Holy Koran; and yet you’re not giving me tangible proof of where to draw the line between Bai and Riba. I don’t want to be like a donkey that doesn’t know what treasures is caring on its back. I want to know more. I’m sure there’s a reason we’ve Bai and Riba in the Arabic language. That’s the reason I said I would ask this question the prophet (p.b.u.h.) if he where to come back. I know that won’t happen; however, I was simply responding the hypothetical question posed by the author of this topic.
P.S.; don’t get sarcastic when you respond. I keep sensing that you tend to turn tables when confronted with very serious questions. Just for the sake of clarification, at one point you said why don’t you just utilize your God given faculty of reasoning. That is not an answer rather a way of avoiding the question at hand.
W/Salaam!!! |
| ANON | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 05:02 am
"Dear Anon, I perfectly see where you’re coming from and respect that."
same here.
"I wish we could see eye to eye on this issue of usury, but clearly we don’t."
we can not always see things the same, but one of us is right and one of us is wrong.
"As a matter of fact, the more I compare Bai with Riba, the stronger the similarities are."
and i clear differencies in the two.
"Don’t get me wrong, as far as your definitions are concerned, there’re remarkable differences."
yes.
"Yet, on the practical side, the differences are on the gray side."
i see no gray side when i read the Quran. the Quran is cristal clear enough for me and the prophet never disobey the Quran--------never ordered the muslims to employ riba (as you tell us). if you have evidence, you would have told us where you get your information that says" "Admittedly, during during the life of our beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which entailed charging interest on the goods they sold."
"Like you, I read the Holy Koran daily. I’ve read sura Al-Baqara. As such, I know it’s a grave sin to commit usury. I also agree that Allah Almighty knows where to draw the line. In other words, He knows the difference between the two. But, I’m talking about us, humans, where we should draw the line. I keep hearing people accusing merchants of being usury takers, if you will just because they overcharged them."
as such, i do not need to drow the line (do not need to split hair)--much sin is allowed and how much sin is not allowed.
"Yet, the question is how much overcharging is considered Riba and how much is allowable under the Islamic Shari’a."
the equalizer, maybe you do not know that a sin is a sin-----big or small.
"You keep quoting from the suras of the Holy Koran; and yet you’re not giving me tangible proof of where to draw the line between Bai and Riba."
if someone needs to bring tangible proof, it is you who said the prophet allowed riba for the muslims. unlike you, i do not think the prophet disobey what is in the Quran and unlike you, i do not think the prophet drow any line between riba and bia.
"I don’t want to be like a donkey that doesn’t know what treasures is caring on its back."
i told you that unlike you, the Quran, the equalizer-----the Quran is simple enough for me and it is the answer for me. i see in it the clear differencies in the two (riba and bia).
"I want to know more. I’m sure there’s a reason we’ve Bai and Riba in the Arabic language. That’s the reason I said I would ask this question the prophet (p.b.u.h.) if he where to come back. I know that won’t happen; however, I was simply responding the hypothetical question posed by the author of this topic."
it is only good to read the Quran, but it is good to understand it. to know what the Quran says, you need understand the prophet's dealing and you need to understand the explanation of the prophet. you say the prophet allowed riba, but you are not bringing evidence. !
"P.S.; don’t get sarcastic when you respond."
i can not help. i'm not doing sacrcassim to belittle, though.
"I keep sensing that you tend to turn tables when confronted with very serious questions."
just trying to clear things-----the difference between you and me.
"Just for the sake of clarification, at one point you said why don’t you just utilize your God given faculty of reasoning. That is not an answer rather a way of avoiding the question at hand."
you want me to draw line where there is none. if you say Allah Almighty has granted the gift of reasoning to you, but you don't know the difference between the two (bai and riba). i know no where in the books where the prophet draw the line. i told you if the prophet would have appeared to you know (which is not going to happen), he would tell you to read the Quran and follow. i follow the Quran and i do not consider the riba dealings legal. you do. |
| ANON | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 06:39 am
Dear Anon, I perfectly see where you’re coming from and respect that."
same here.
"I wish we could see eye to eye on this issue of usury, but clearly we don’t."
we can not always see things the same, but one of us is right and one of us is
wrong.
"As a matter of fact, the more I compare Bai with Riba, the stronger the similarities
are."
and i see clear differencies in the two.
"Don’t get me wrong, as far as your definitions are concerned, there’re remarkable
differences."
yes.
"Yet, on the practical side, the differences are on the gray side."
i see no gray side when i read the Quran. the Quran is cristal clear enough for me
and the prophet never disobey the Quran--------never ordered the muslims to
employ riba (as you tell us). if you had evidence, you would have told us where
you get your information from that says" "Admittedly, during during the life of our
beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which
entailed charging interest on the goods they sold."
"Like you, I read the Holy Koran daily. I’ve read sura Al-Baqara. As such, I know it’s
a grave sin to commit usury. I also agree that Allah Almighty knows where to draw
the line. In other words, He knows the difference between the two. But, I’m talking
about us, humans, where we should draw the line. I keep hearing people accusing
merchants of being usury takers, if you will just because they overcharged them."
as such, i do not need to draw the line (do not need to split hair)--how much sin is
allowed and how much sin is not allowed.
"Yet, the question is how much overcharging is considered Riba and how much is
allowable under the Islamic Shari’a."
the equalizer, maybe you do not know that a sin is a sin-----big or small.
"You keep quoting from the suras of the Holy Koran; and yet you’re not giving me
tangible proof of where to draw the line between Bai and Riba."
if someone needs to bring tangible proof, it is you who said the prophet allowed riba
for the muslims. unlike you, i do not think the prophet disobeyed what is in the Quran
and unlike you, i do not think the prophet draw any line between riba and bia----which made some riba halaal and some other haraam. sin is sin...big or small.
"I don’t want to be like a donkey that doesn’t know what treasures is caring on its
back."
i told you that unlike you, the Quran, the equalizer-----the Quran is simple enough
for me and it is the answer for me. i see in it the clear differencies in the two (riba
and bia).
"I want to know more. I’m sure there’s a reason we’ve Bai and Riba in the Arabic
language. That’s the reason I said I would ask this question the prophet (p.b.u.h.)
if he where to come back. I know that won’t happen; however, I was simply
responding the hypothetical question posed by the author of this topic."
it is only good to read the Quran, but it is good to understand it. to know what the
Quran says, you need understand the prophet's dealings and you need to
understand the explanation of the prophet. you say the prophet allowed riba, but
you are not bringing evidence. !
"P.S.; don’t get sarcastic when you respond."
i can not help. i'm not doing sacrcasism to belittle, though.
"I keep sensing that you tend to turn tables when confronted with very serious
questions."
just trying to clear things-----the difference between you and me.
"Just for the sake of clarification, at one point you said why don’t you just utilize
your God given faculty of reasoning. That is not an answer rather a way of avoiding
the question at hand."
you want me to draw line where there is none. i can not draw lines in how much sin is allowed and how much sin is not. if you say Allah Almighty has
granted the gift of reasoning to you, but you don't know the difference between
the two (bai and riba). i know no where in the books where the prophet draw the
line to mean riba is allowed. i told you if the prophet would have appeared to you know (which is not going
to happen), he would tell you to read the Quran and follow. i follow the Quran and i
do not consider the riba dealings legal. you do. |
| The Equalizer | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:02 am
Dear Anon,
I believe you’re very dogmatic when it comes to matters of religion. Moreover, you keep reading between the lines. Indeed, you putting into my mouth words that I’ve never uttered or written for that matter.
Please read again what I posted. I never said the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) practiced usury. I just hinted that merchants of the old times must have charged something extra for their service or commodity. You call that Bai whereas I see it differently.
One more thing, just because I’m challenging you to give me specific examples doesn’t mean my faith is inferior to yours. I have the utmost respect for both Islam and Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h.). However, that shouldn’t preclude me from searching further clarifications from Islamic scholars.
The difference between the two of us lies with the fact that I’m being modest and sincerely seeking to acquire some Islamic knowledge. You instead, just because you read the Holy Koran and the sayings of the Prophet, you believe you are an authority in this field. I advise you to come down of the high horse and recognize your limitations. So far, all you wrote is not new to me. Further, you couldn’t even come up with any tangible and solid evidence that could clear out our differences. As such, I believe you should just keep quiet about matters you know a little about.
To conclude, stop being so dogmatic about things you know a little bit of. After all, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I also would like to take this opportunity to wish you good luck in your pursuit of Islamic knowledge.
W/Salaam!!! |
| ANON | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 09:56 am
Dear Anon,
"I believe you’re very dogmatic when it comes to matters of religion."
yes, i'm very dogmatic (inflexible) when it comes to matters of religion. unlike you, i do not compromise with the facts-----rights and wrongs. i call it and accept the truth (samacnaa wa adacnaa). i do not justify wrong doings. sin is sin----big or small.
"Moreover, you keep reading between the lines."
yes.
"Indeed, you putting into my mouth words that I’ve never uttered or written for that matter. Please read again what I posted. I never said the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) practiced usury. I just hinted that merchants of the old times must have charged something extra for their service or commodity."
i read what you wrote. you said "during the life of our beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which entailed charging interest on the goods they sold." In other words, you propose that the prophet considered usury a sin----sometimes and not all the times. if the prophet did not consider usury sin sometimes and he didn't who allowed these merchants whom you mentioned to make profit out of usury?
"You call that Bai whereas I see it differently."
yes, we see things differently. you said you "believe interest is allowed in Islam to stimulate the local economy", but i believe any kind of interest (big or small) is forbidden in islam.
"One more thing, just because I’m challenging you to give me specific examples doesn’t mean my faith is inferior to yours."
maybe you feel inferiority complex. i never said your faith is inferior to mine. i say you believe what you believe and i believe what i believe.
"I have the utmost respect for both Islam and Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h.). However, that shouldn’t preclude me from searching further clarifications from Islamic scholars."
all i did point out to you was what the Quran says. i don't care who you have utmost respect.
"The difference between the two of us lies with the fact that I’m being modest and sincerely seeking to acquire some Islamic knowledge."
and you think i'm dishonest?
"You instead, just because you read the Holy Koran and the sayings of the Prophet, you believe you are an authority in this field."
i have claimed no such authority.
"I advise you to come down of the high horse and recognize your limitations."
i'm not on any horse. i told you many times-----you believe what you believe and i believe what i believe. just because i pointed out to you what the Quran says------does not make me someone who has no limitations.
"So far, all you wrote is not new to me."
i always read the Quran. when i read the Quran, my intention is not to look for something new.
"Further, you couldn’t even come up with any tangible and solid evidence that could clear out our differences."
i suggest that you read the clear difference i make about bia and riba.
"As such, I believe you should just keep quiet about matters you know a little about."
that is your wishful thinking. this is not the place to order people and say to them------you "should keep quiet".
"To conclude, stop being so dogmatic about things you know a little bit of."
unlike you, i'm not going to be inflexible or compromise with the truth. i'm not going to make the halaal haraam and the halaal haraam.
"After all, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
i wished that you brought forward the knowledge you claim to have..........i wish you told us where the prophet allowed for the muslims to employ usury.
"I also would like to take this opportunity to wish you good luck in your pursuit of Islamic knowledge."
i'm not looking for islamic knowledge in this place. when i see discrepancies made by you, i'm going to point out to you. also, i'm not going to spread miss-information about islam on this place. if you claim something about the prophet which he didn't allow------i'm not going to ask you evidence. |
| ANON | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 11:19 am
Dear Anon,
"I believe you’re very dogmatic when it comes to matters of religion."
yes, i'm very dogmatic (inflexible) when it comes to matters of religion. unlike you, i do not compromise with the facts-----rights and wrongs. i call it and accept the truth (samacnaa wa adacnaa). i do not justify wrong doings. sin is sin----big or small.
"Moreover, you keep reading between the lines."
yes.
"Indeed, you putting into my mouth words that I’ve never uttered or written for that matter. Please read again what I posted. I never said the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) practiced usury. I just hinted that merchants of the old times must have charged something extra for their service or commodity."
i read what you wrote. you said "during the life of our beloved Prophet (p.b.u.h.), merchants were allowed to make some profit, which entailed charging interest on the goods they sold." In other words, you propose that the prophet considered usury a sin----sometimes and not all the times. if the prophet did not consider usury sin sometimes and he didn't othere times-------who allowed these merchants whom you mentioned to make profit out of usury?
"You call that Bai whereas I see it differently."
yes, we see things differently. you said you "believe interest is allowed in Islam to stimulate the local economy", but i believe any kind of interest (big or small) is forbidden in islam.
"One more thing, just because I’m challenging you to give me specific examples doesn’t mean my faith is inferior to yours."
maybe you feel inferiority complex. i never said your faith is inferior to mine. i say you believe what you believe and i believe what i believe.
"I have the utmost respect for both Islam and Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h.). However, that shouldn’t preclude me from searching further clarifications from Islamic scholars."
all i did point out to you was what the Quran says. i don't care who you have utmost respect and who you don't.
"The difference between the two of us lies with the fact that I’m being modest and sincerely seeking to acquire some Islamic knowledge."
and you think i'm dishonest?
"You instead, just because you read the Holy Koran and the sayings of the Prophet, you believe you are an authority in this field."
i have claimed no such authority.
"I advise you to come down of the high horse and recognize your limitations."
i'm not on any horse. i told you many times-----you believe what you believe and i believe what i believe. just because i pointed out to you what the Quran says------does not make me someone who has no limitations.
"So far, all you wrote is not new to me."
i always read the Quran. when i read the Quran, my intention is not to look for something new.
"Further, you couldn’t even come up with any tangible and solid evidence that could clear out our differences."
i suggest that you read the clear difference i made about bia and riba.
"As such, I believe you should just keep quiet about matters you know a little about."
that is your wishful thinking. this is not the place to order people and say to them------you "should keep quiet".
"To conclude, stop being so dogmatic about things you know a little bit of."
unlike you, i'm not going to be inflexible or compromise with the truth. i'm not going to make the halaal haraam and the haraam halaal. riba and bai will not be the same.
"After all, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
i wished that you brought forward the knowledge you claim to have..........i wish you told us where the prophet allowed for the muslims to employ usury.
"I also would like to take this opportunity to wish you good luck in your pursuit of Islamic knowledge."
i'm not looking for islamic knowledge in this place. when i see discrepancies made by you, i'm going to point out to you. also, i'm not going to spread miss-information about islam on this place. if you claim something about the prophet which he didn't allow------i'm going to ask you to bring evidence. |
| Sweetgirl | Friday, January 05, 2001 - 12:27 pm
If I met prophet Muhammed(saw) in person I'd give him the respect he deserves as the messenger of God. Then I would ask him about the other prophets Ibraheem in particular, about the ahlul bait and his companions both the muhajirun and the ansaar. Then I would ask him to make du'aa to allah to make me pious and among his companions in jannatul-firdous. |
| MAD MAC | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 01:54 am
Asad
Well, in respect to Hitler, IF Allah wants to judge him, that is correct, he can not be just and merciful. And how could he??? What punishment could he give Hitler that would show mercy and still be just????
As I have said before, I am highly skeptical on the whole notion of a day of judgement. I do not believe you are suppose to do things for reward or not do things out of fear of punishment. I think Mohammed got that part wrong. I think you are suppose to do the right thing because it's the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing means paying a price. And sometimes doing the wrong thing means getting a benefit. The motivation to do the right thing, even if it costs you, shouldn't be because you want a reward in the hereafter. That jades the deed. You do right for the sake of doing right - you don't do it for God, you don't do it for reward. Selflessness is a virtue which seems to be missing in your beliefs. Selflessness that is rewarded in the afer-life is no longer selflessness. |
| ANON | Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 02:31 pm
Asad
Well, in respect to Hitler, IF Allah wants to judge him, that is correct, he can not be just and merciful. And how could he??? What punishment could he give Hitler that would show mercy and still be just???? ”
If hitler did was he did (injustice-----believing he was better and had the right to kill people), he brought to himself whatever he will get (justice). He can not blame no one else for his doing and
He must face the consequence for his actions.
“As I have said before, I am highly skeptical on the whole notion of a day of judgement. I do not believe you are suppose to do things for reward or not do things out of fear of punishment.”
Yes, that is why you are an ognostic and I’m a muslim for beleiving it’s existence. to believe that there will be no judgement is in itself injustice-----that you can do whatever you want, including killing and get away with it without punishment. We do not things only out of fear, but out of hope, mad mac.
“I think Mohammed got that part wrong. “
is hitler right thinking committing suicide will give him justice? ;-)
“I think you are suppose to do the right thing because it's the right thing.”
And doing the wrong things because it’s the wrong thing, right? ;-)
“Sometimes doing the right thing means paying a price.”
The only price you will get in the*hereafter* for doing right is good.
“And sometimes doing the wrong thing means getting a benefit.”
The only price you will get in the *hereafter* for doing wrong is bad.
“The motivation to do the right thing, even if it costs you, shouldn't be because you want a reward in the hereafter.”
It is the opposite. not only reward you will get for doing right is in the hereafter, but is in this world.
“That jade the deed. “
the motivation to be good and the motivation to be bad.
“You do right for the sake of doing right - you don't do it for God, you don't do it for reward.”
You do it both of Allah in order that He give you good rewards.
“Selflessness is a virtue which seems to be missing in your beliefs. Selflessness that is rewarded in the afer-life is no longer selflessness.”
Whatever someone does---good or bad, Allah knows it and he is the one who rewards and punishes. The act of selflessness and being virtuous is impelled by the love of the Creator, Master and Sustainer, and moved to win His good-will and the act of wickedness and being evil is impelled by the love of not the Creator, but the love of world and wickedness. to reject your creator is to reject oneself.
“Virtue is not in this that you turn your faces to the east and the west, but virtue is of him who believes in Allah and the Last Day, the angles and the Book and the prophets, and gives of his substance for the love of Him……….” 2:177 |
| osman | Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 07:35 pm
Salama ala mena etba al-hudaa...
thanks for puting this poem...
this poem, was written by another person...
I heared it's it's muslim girl...
it would had been good if you had told us the source..or at least put in the bottom..but thanks ....
I would not write but reading some of the posting written by the some of the people here I was shocked and felt ....
are these people somlian!!!,
I mean they uttering statements of kufr..
don't say it's joke, you can't joke about these things...
there one thing scholars say..if you joke don't joke about your religon...
I advise other people who is reading this post ...to boyoct these people and stop talking to them...
if they meant to insult prophet muhammed may Allah give them what they deserve...
what foolish people...
salamu aleykum.. |
