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     | Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 06:50 am SATAN CALLED A WORLDWIDE CONVENTION: In his opening address to his evil servants, he said, "We can’t keep the Muslims from going to the mosque. We can’t keep them from reading the Qur’aan and knowing the truth. We can’t even keep them forming an intimate abiding relationship experience with Allah. If they gain that connection with Allah, our power over them is broken." "So let them go to the mosques, let them have their conservative lifestyles, but steal their time, so they can’t gain that relationship with Allah." "This is what I want you to do, servants. Distract them from gaining hold of their creator and maintaining that vital connection throughout the day!" "How shall we do this?" Shouted the servants. "Keep them busy in the non-essentials of life and invent innumerable schemes to occupy their minds", he answered. "Tempt them to spend, spend, spend, and borrow, borrow, borrow. Persuade their wives to go to work for long hours and husbands to work 6-7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, so they can afford their empty lifestyles. Keep them from spending their time with their children. As their family fragments, soon, their home will offer no escape from pressures of work!" "Over stimulate their minds so that they cannot hear that still, small voice. Entice them to play the radio or cassette player whenever they drive, to keep the TV, VCR, CD’s and their PCs going constantly in their homes. And see to it that every store and restaurant in the world plays non-Islamic music constantly. This will jam their minds and break that union with Allah." "Fill the coffee table with magazines and newspapers. Pound their minds with news 24 hours of the day. Invade their driving moments with billboards. Flood their mailboxes with junk mail, mail order catalogues, sweepstakes, and every kind of newsletter and emotional offering of free products, services, and false hopes. Keep skinny, beautiful models on magazines so that husbands believe external beauty is what’s important, and they’ll become dissatisfied with their wives. Ha! That will fragment those families quickly!" "Even in their recreation, let them be excessive. Have them return from their recreation exhausted, disquieted, and unprepared for the coming week. Don’t let them go out in nature to reflect in God’s wonders. Send them to amusement parks, sporting events, concerts and movies instead." Keep them busy, busy, and busy!!! And when they meet for spiritual fellowship, involve them in Gossip and small talk so that they leave with troubled consciences and unsettled emotions". "Go ahead, let them be involved in soul winning. But crowd their lives with so many good causes they have no time to seek power from Allah. Soon they will be working in their own strength, sacrificing their health and family for the good of the cause. It will work! It will work!" It was quite a convention. And the evil servants went eagerly to their assignments, causing Muslims everywhere to get busy, busy, busy and rush here and there. I guess the question is: has the devil been successful at his schemes?????? You be the judge! Brothers and Sisters, this message was sent to me by someone who cares and thought I could share it with you, please take pay attention to the message it brings: BUSY= B eing U nder S atan’s Y oke Are you BUSY??????? I’ll be the first to admit that I am very BUSY!! (Subxaan Allah) Peace, Love and Happiness
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| | Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 11:40 am Amina Are you telling me that good Muslims are suppose to spend all of their idle time worshipping Allah? If that is true, that why does the Qur'an not forbid all that is enjoyable and demand that all non-working time be spent worshipping Allah?
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| | Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 12:00 pm "Are you telling me that good Muslims are suppose to spend all of their idle time worshipping Allah?" lol----->all their idle time. ;-) "If that is true that " the true is that not all their time is required to perform worship. "why does the Qur'an not forbid all that is enjoyable and demand that all non-working time be spent worshipping Allah" that is because the information you have is wrong. the Quran does not forbid the good (halaal) things. the Quran forbids the bad (haraam) things. there is a time for everything that is good. time to eat; there is even time to enjoy sex and most importantly there is a time for prayers. mad mac, have you ever heard that there is such a thing called 5 times prayers-----which the muslims are required to do and they must do this when the time comes in whatever they are doing, even when they are in jihad.
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| | Monday, February 19, 2001 - 05:10 am Dear, MR Mac, No I was not trying to tell you that! What the article was actually getting at that the muslims are so cought up in this worldly life that they do not get the time to worship Allah....To do the required acts of worship (i.e prayer, going masjid, learning about islam etc).. I did not say anything about spending ALL your idil (????) worshipping Allah. Its intresting that you brought this up though... Alot of people have a differing conceptions of 'worship'. Besides worshipping Allah can be done in so many ways..worshipping Allah is not only about prayer and reading the Quran as some people would have you believe. And Allah Knows best, Peace, Love and Happiness
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| | Monday, February 19, 2001 - 11:13 am Ahhh I see said the blind man. Balance is the key in all things in life. What was it Issa said (the Christian version of course). Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods. You are quite right, a life spent pursuing worldly pleasures turns you into a hedonist. I used to be one. It's fun for a while, but even having fun gets old.
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| | Monday, February 19, 2001 - 12:35 pm AMINA Jaza’kkallah. I was in London few years back and attended a suhbat, traditional talk, given by Shaykh Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani. He was addressing this same issue. He opened his talk by saying, ‘When we are here for the rememberance of our Lord, Dikrullah, we are stealing. We are stealing time. We are stealing time from Shaytan. Shaytan and his servants who nowadays filled all times.’ CONNECTING THIS WITH WHAT YOU SAID TO MAD MAC…. “Besides, worshipping Allah can be done in so many ways..worshipping Allah is not only about prayer and reading the Quran.” CONCLUDES THAT THERE IS SAFETY FROM THE ABOVE MENTIONED CATOSTROPH THROUGH DIKRULLAH. YOU CAN BE IN YOUR WORLDLY INVOLVEMENT WHILE YOU ARE STILL ENGAGED IN CIBAADAH, WORSHIP OR DEVOTION, THROUGH DIKRULLAH HAVING YOUR HEART CONNECTED TO YOUR LORD. MAD MAC. Yes, Allah SWT said in Holy Quran, “WAMA KHALAQTUL JINNA WAL INSA ILAA LA YACBUDDUU……” meaning, ‘I have not created Jinn and Human beings except to worship me ….. and I guarantee their sustenance.’ SPEAKING ON BALANCE? We eat to remain nutritious, we shower and wash our clothes to stay clean, we brush our teeth, some go to the gym, we sleep to…., we study to…, we socialize to…, some vacation.., and so on. All these out of time granted to us by Allah SWT for our mind and body, DOES OUR SOUL REQUIRE ANY LESS TO ….. HUMMMM. BALANCE ACCORDINGLY PREPARATIONS: When we are going on a trip we prepare, pack, plan, etc., according to our duration of that trip. However, we know one of these days we are going to our final destination, Our Lord, for not just a long time but eternally, SHOULDN’T WE PREPARE, PLAN, PACK, ETC., ACCORDINGLY???? NOW THAT IS BALANCE. CONTEMPLATE. WA MINALLAHI TAWFIIQ.
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| | Monday, February 19, 2001 - 12:36 pm "What was it Issa said (the Christian version of course). Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods." are you sure ciise (somali version) said what you said he said? didn't ciise say THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS: I AM COME NOT TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL (the Law). FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE LOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. Mathew 5:17-18. those who claim ciise would allow people to follow pagan law (ceasar's law) are wrong. ciise never compromised his religion. the commandments of ciise which he himself observed faithfully and fully is compromised by people's sayings--- "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods." the fact that ciise himself told his followers that observing the commandments and selling their belongings shall make them "perfect" is compromised (Matthew 19:16-21). the fact that ciise himself commanded his followers to keep the commandments until the end of time is also compromised (Matthew 5:17-19). all you need to do is follow pagan laws along with God's law, right? the fact is that both prophet muuse (somali version) as well as prophet ciise observed very strictly throughout their lives what is God's and encouraged their followers to disobey what's pagan.
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 05:33 am Well sahib, in the Israel of the time you could follow both Jewish law and Roman law. Roman law basically required payment of taxes and if you did that you were good to hook. There was no requirement to convert to Roman paganism or worship roman Gods, etc. So there's really no conflict there. Just as you live in the states and follow Islamic customs while adhering to local law.
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 06:24 am paying tax when you are forced to pay tax while not volunteening it is not a law that contradicts God's law. why did the roman pagans and israelis conspired to kill ciise if he preached "render unto Ceasar what is ceasars and unto God what is Gods."? the roman pagans and israeli unbelievers figured that if ciise got more people to follow him, the *law of the land* would change, right? the fact is that the prophets did preach the law of the land should be only God's law. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 09:07 am MAD MAC,Why is it everytime some straight forward muslim,with good iqlaaq and taqwa states something for the better of the ummah,you have to try to refute it with some "un-islamic" saying or so-called evidence.are you against the truth or for it?It is the true nature of shaidhon to "create false deseirs" as he stated to AllAH in th e glorious Qur'an.Also AllAH says in al-Qur'an surah An-Nisa 4:65 "But no,by your Lord,they can have "no Iman" untill they set you (Muhammed) judge in "any dispute" that arise amoung them,and then find thier souls "no resistance" against your decision but accept them with the fullest submission".There is in islam "enough"knowlege to provide judgment in "every dispute",so theres is no ecuse not to refear to AllAH and His messager(s.a.w.s.).But instead you refear to some (christian version) to argue and/or imply refutaion of what was said from Amina.This is the second time i've seen your post (which is the opposite os islamic anything) please fear AllAH and return to Him and His Messenger(s.a.w.s.).jazakalla-u-khayraan. wa-salaamu calaykum.
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 10:59 am Abdimateen I'm not a Muslim. Never claimed to be. Asad The Romans did not conspire to kill Issa, the Pharasees did. He was PERCEIVED to be a threat to their power base. He had a huge following and THAT was what was viewed as a threat. It wasn't what he did preach that worried them so much, it's what they were afraid he would preach. They didn't want any competing political leadership. It was Issas potential as a threat that got him killed, not anything he actually did or said. I realize you believe Issa preached the same thing as Mohammed, I disagree. Do you have any evidence of this besides the Qur'an???
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 11:49 am "Asad The Romans did not conspire to kill Issa, the Pharasees did. If the killing of Jesus is the cause of Christian hatred towards Jews, why have the accomplices to the crime been categorically persecuted, while those who actually carried out the act have never been singled out for persecution? If the Christians are so enraged over the death of their god that because of it they have persecuted Jews continually, they should hate the Romans at least as much as they hate the Jews." not only the romans tried to "kill" ciise, they conspired to kill him with his other enemy (the jews). mad mac, are you saying both the romans and the jews did not want ciise to go away and they both didn't conspire to "kill" him? read the history, mad mac because you do not know what you are talking about. if the romans didn't try to *kill* ciise, the new testament would not say the romans "killed" him. according to the new testament, it was the Romans who "killed" ciise. while jews are mentioned as accomplices. the gospels state repeatedly that the romans were ciise's killers. matthew, john, and mark all specifically mention the Romans *killed* jesus. ;-) "He was PERCEIVED to be a threat to their power base." yes, that is what i said. ;-) "He had a huge following and THAT was what was viewed as a threat." yes. "It wasn't what he did preach that worried them so much, it's what they were afraid he would preach." it was what ciise preached that worried them so much; ciise didn't do anything, but preach. ;-) "They didn't want any competing political leadership." yes, they didn't want anyone changing the law. ;-) "It was Issas potential as a threat that got him killed, not anything he actually did or said." first, i don't believe they "killed" him (they tried and conspired to "kill" him). all ciise did was preach and uphold the law of muuse which the romans and the jews didn't want. ;-) "I realize you believe Issa preached the same thing as Mohammed" and the same thing as muuse. ;-) "I disagree." i know. ;-) "Do you have any evidence of this besides the Qur'an???" yes, and i showed you: didn't ciise say "THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS: I AM COME NOT TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL (the Law). FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE LOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. Mathew 5:17-18. those who claim ciise would allow people to follow pagan law (ceasar's law) are wrong. ciise never compromised his religion. the commandments of ciise which he himself observed faithfully and fully is compromised by people's sayings--- "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods." the fact that ciise himself told his followers that observing the commandments and selling their belongings shall make them "perfect" is compromised (Matthew 19:16-21). the fact that ciise himself commanded his followers to keep the commandments until the end of time is also compromised (Matthew 5:17-19). all you need to do is follow pagan laws along with God's law, right? the fact is that both prophet muuse (somali version) as well as prophet ciise observed very strictly throughout their lives what is God's and encouraged their followers to disobey what's pagan.
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| | Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 09:42 pm A Couple of questions reference this. Why did Issa drink wine?? This is not disputable even though American ambolitionists hate it. Another question. You do obey the laws of the land in which you live correct? Why? I would assume because they don't conflict with the laws of the Qur'an. That is, you are able to accomodate both. Well, the same held true for Jews in Israel around the time of Issa. They could follow Jewish law and still obey Roman law. The Romans did not impose Roman standards on conquored territories. It is one of the reasons they were as succssful in maintaining their empire as they were. The Jews could maintain their own leadership and own rules so long as they did not defy Roman edicts and paid Roman taxes. It was not a very oppressive rule (by the standards of the day). Roman soldiers who did the dirty work in killing Issa were doing so after a legal process organized and led by the Jewish Pharasees. It's an interesting irony that the Romans were just pawns in this particular scenerio. BTW the reason no one hates the Romans anymore is they no longer exist. The Italians aren't' even a faint shadow, linguisitically or culturally.
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 08:38 am "A Couple of questions reference this. Why did Issa drink wine?? This is not disputable even though American ambolitionists hate it." i don't know if he did or didn’t. if he did drink wine, then it was not haraam at that time. do you know muslims used to drink wine during prophet muhamad's time---before it was made haraam? ;-) "Another question. You do obey the laws of the land in which you live correct? Why?" i'm being forced to pay tax; i have to follow traffic laws and if i don't, i'll be fined or put to jail, right? ;-) "I would assume because they don't conflict with the laws of the Qur'an. That is, you are able to accomodate both. " yes, but if the law in the land would tell me to give up prayers or my job tells me to stop performing the prayers or i can't go to the masjid in fridays and i obey or accommodate their law, i'm in conflict with the laws of the Quran, which i'm not going to do it even if they fire me or kill me. ;-) "Well, the same held true for Jews in Israel around the time of Issa. They could follow Jewish law and still obey Roman law." that is not true. ciise never compromised his religion. ciise never follow people's law (jewish law or roman law). people made up stories about him. prophets don't disobey Allah. ;-) "The Romans did not impose Roman standards on conquored territories. It is one of the reasons they were as succssful in maintaining their empire as they were. The Jews could maintain their own leadership and own rules so long as they did not defy Roman edicts and paid Roman taxes. It was not a very oppressive rule (by the standards of the day). Roman soldiers who did the dirty work in killing Issa were doing so after a legal process organized and led by the Jewish Pharasees. It's an interesting irony that the Romans were just pawns in this particular scenerio. " that is false too. romans were oppressive regime. romans were notorious for their killing of innocent people. read the history, mad mac. ;-) "BTW the reason no one hates the Romans anymore is they no longer exist. The Italians aren't' even a faint shadow, linguisitically or culturally." so are you now clear about your earlier statement (The Romans did not conspire to kill Issa) to be false? ;-) The Jews could maintain their own leadership and own rules so long as they did not defy Roman edicts and paid Roman taxes. It was not a very oppressive rule (by the standards of the day). Roman soldiers who did the dirty work in killing Issa were doing so after a legal process organized and led by the Jewish Pharasees. It's an interesting irony that the Romans were just pawns in this particular scenerio. BTW the reason no one hates the Romans anymore is they no longer exist. The Italians aren't' even a faint shadow, linguisitically or culturally.
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:04 pm "BTW the reason no one hates the Romans anymore is they no longer exist. The Italians aren't' even a faint shadow, linguisitically or culturally." i dont' care if the christians hate the jews or not because of ciise. that is between them. as far as i'm concern, they are both wrong when they talk about ciise. they both tell lies about him. i'm not blaming the jews killing ciise (because they didn't; they tried to kill him); i'm blaming them for conspiring and being accomplices with the romans in their attempt to killing ciise. if i'm blaming the jews for killing, i'm blaming the jews of that time who actually killed other prophets of Allah. how many prophets did they kill, you asked. only Allah knows how many. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:19 pm Who knows. I don't really care. None of it is truly confirmable. Christ died, he didn't died. Christ was raised from the dead, he wasn't raised from the dead. Christ was the son of God, he wasn't the son of God. Hell, I wasn't there and I'm not going to pretend I was. As the great Clint Eastwood once said, a man's got to know his limitations. If it was real important for me to know for sure God would make sure I did. So it must not be real important - like most other things. What is important is recognizing that no one who is alive today had anything to do with what happened 2,000 years ago - hence holding grudges about who killed Christ is a collossal waste of time. How the hell did we wander onto this topic anyway?????
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:42 pm "Who knows." Allah knows. "I don't really care." Allah cared to let us know, so it must be important to know. ;-) "None of it is truly confirmable. Christ died, he didn't died. Christ was raised from the dead, he wasn't raised from the dead. Christ was the son of God, he wasn't the son of God." there is such a thing call faith. if i wanted confirmation, i would ask evidence how Allah created the sky i see or the hell or heaven which i didn't see. ;-) "Hell" lol "I wasn't there and I'm not going to pretend I was." i wasn't there either and i'm not pretending. ;-) "As the great Clint Eastwood once said, a man's got to know his limitations." if he is a christian, i guess he believes what the christians believe. "If it was real important for me to know for sure God would make sure I did. So it must not be real important - like most other things." Allah did make sure that you know the fact by sending prophets and books----which means it is important------unless you are saying you are blind or dumb. ;-) "What is important is recognizing that no one who is alive today had anything to do with what happened 2,000 years ago - hence holding grudges about who killed Christ is a collossal waste of time." you noticed i said "if i'm blaming the jews for killing, i'm blaming the jews of *that time* who actually killed other prophets of Allah.". "How the hell did we wander onto this topic anyway?????" it is always happenes this way. one topic produces different topics. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 10:00 pm Mac to God - Sending prophets is not a real efficient way of communicating with the bullk of mankind. Recommend you adopt different mothodology if you want maximum number of folks to get the message. Maybe a talking dog would work - it would be unique. People notice things that are unique.
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| | Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:08 pm "Mac to God" no, looks like mad to satan as the title of this thread says: Satan's World Wide Convention. ;-) - Sending prophets is not a real efficient way of communicating with the bullk of mankind." since you said "If it was real important for me to know for sure God would make sure I did", Allah sent prophets with books and this was efficient way of communicating with you, right?:-) "Recommend you adopt different mothodology if you want maximum number of folks to get the message." it is not up to me, but the mothodology Allah used reached you and you can't blame no one else and claim the message didn't reach you. ;-) "Maybe a talking dog would work - it would be unique." that is similar things the pagan arabs and the jews---and many other infidels said for excuses, but they were told no way. accept or not, the delivered. ;-) "People notice things that are unique." the jews always wanted a unique way to get the message. they once asked muuse why don't Allah send cooked food from the sky. how unique! ;-)
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| | Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 03:49 pm Yes your not a muslim MAD MAC thats overt from the way you post.How did you come to argue with us(muslims).Whatever your religious stance is it isn't and/or doesn't give you guy's very much assistance in appropriate presedures when ingaged in spiritual dialoge with muslims.And you sound like those christians who "even though they know their wrong" swim in self dinial and superficial rederic.MAD MAC if your going to dicuss anything with us muslims please done't wast our time with such dull and longated futile thoughts,which were fourteen hundred years ago already declared false concoted lies may by those apposing the truth.Allah(s.w.t.) has sastaind your and everyother non-muslims fate in a terrorable day.So if you have any real intelligence(which i see you trying to impliment in your post)you will take the time to accutually read "divine revelation" the "last revelation".thankyou.
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| | Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 10:37 pm Abdimateen I am reading the "devine revelation", and slow reading it is. I question it's divinity though. Asad Anyone can claim he's a prophet. And lots of people do. Also, God didn't send the Prophets and more than he "sent" me and you. The Prophets are uniqely talented, not sent. I told you this already. I can see you haven't completely embrassed Macist philosophy.
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| | Friday, February 23, 2001 - 06:47 am "I am reading the "devine revelation", and slow reading it is." if you are reading the "divine relation" from Allah, don't say Allah didn't make sure it got to you. ;-) "I question it's divinity though." and you will be questioned for denying it's divinity by Allah. ;-) "Anyone can claim he's a prophet. And lots of people do." yes, do you think muhammad was not a true prophet Allah chose and given the Quran? ;-) "Also, God didn't send the Prophets and more than he "sent" me and you. The Prophets are uniqely talented, not sent." muhammad was a messenger of Allah; messengers and prophets of Allah are sent or told to go preach the word of Allah. muhammad made sure he delivered the message and he sent or told his companions to go and convey the message to others. you and i have today the sent message (the Quran) preached by the prophet or the messenger. ;-) "I told you this already. I can see you haven't completely embrassed Macist philosophy." kufur philosophy of any kind that differs the the message the prophet preached never make me uncomfortable or embarrassed nor conformed----it does not concern me. i would not be questioned about it-----since i have never believed in it. ;-)
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| | Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:37 am Half dad half ilaah= half human half God would be the best. Subxaana laah. Is that what the non-muslim trying to say?
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| | Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 01:50 pm Asad I told you before I think Mohammed was a Prophet. I just don't think he was divine. I don't think his revelation was divine. I think it's as divine as the book of Mormon. I think that Joesph Smith was also a Prophet. I think Buhda was a Prophet. But I don't think any of these men were divine. Nor do I think God chose or sent them. They are like an extremely talented athlete who can do something most of us can't do nearly that well. We can all talk to God, but we don't all hear him talking to us very clearly. But even the most talented of Prophets like Mohammed are a long way from perfect - hence their message can not be perfect either. There is no perfect here on earth.
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| | Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 02:58 pm "Asad I told you before I think Mohammed was a Prophet." an a messanger of Allah. "I just don't think he was divine." we call him the holy prophet of Allah. ;-) "I don't think his revelation was divine." we call the Quran the holy Quran of Allah. ;-) "I think it's as divine as the book of Mormon." the book of mormon is different from the Quran. the Quran does not have contradictions. if the Quran had contradictions, it would not be divine. ;-) "I think that Joesph Smith was also a Prophet." the last prophet of Allah is muhammad. when did this joseph smith guy came? ;-) "I think Buhda was a Prophet." if he was, did he tell people to worship him? ;-) "But I don't think any of these men were divine." muhammad is the true holy prophet of Allah. ;-) "Nor do I think God chose or sent them." Allah has chosen muhammad and was given the book (the Quran). "They are like an extremely talented athlete who can do something most of us can't do nearly that well." none prophets are talented too, but they had no books from Allah. if muhammad was talented, he could read or write ! ;-) "We can all talk to God, but we don't all hear him talking to us very clearly." we pray to Him and we have what He said; it is in the Quran. ;-) "But even the most talented of Prophets like Mohammed are a long way from perfect" "Verily, you (O Muhammad) are aon an exalted standard of character." 68:4. "hence their message can not be perfect either." the Quran is perfect. if it were not perfect, you could produce contradictions from it. the Quran is being protected. "There is no perfect here on earth." the Quran was sent----from heaven to the earth. and it is with us and will be till the end of time. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 12:31 am I know you believe that. Of course, I have highlighted a very basic contradiction, that Allah can not be merciful and just at the same time. These two principals are in contradiction with each other. If I murder someone, and then the court forgives me, it has not conveyed justice to the aggrieved. If on the other hand, it comdemns me to death, it has not been merciful. You can't have both. It's an either or type of thing. Have you read the book or Mormon?? How do you know it has contradictions. Actually the only contradiciton I could find was in that it recognizes the Bible as divine - a document which is full of contradictions. But the book of Mormon itself is a well written piece that has some eminent logic trails. You should read it before you condemn it. The Mormons are remarkably like Muslims in many ways. Remember that the Qur'an itself says that Christians are closest to Muslims - well the Mormons are the Christian sect which is closest to Islam. No alcohol, no drugs, a belief in the sanctity of the family. You have closed your mind to everything that does not eminate from the Qur'an and this is a mistake. Furthermore, you are unwilling to asknowledge even basic contradictions in the Qur'an which might undermine it's divinity. That's your choice and I'm not really demonizing it - but I have to admit I regard the sanctimonity of your position with the same disdain I regard it in other faiths. There is no one true faith. Allah is, in my humble opinion, laughing at you all.
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 06:04 am Hey, Mad Mac All due respect.. but you ain't one of those Christian missionaries sent to the somalis, or are you?? Just wondering. I am not really crazy about the idea of "arguing about" religion.... only discuss islam if the other person has genuine intentions or interest in islam___thus my silence on the matter. To YOU your beleives and to US our beleives__ and i guess we'll the truth in the end  Peace, Love and Happiness
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 06:05 am "I know you believe that. Of course, I have highlighted a very basic contradiction, that Allah can not be merciful and just at the same time. If I murder someone, and then the court forgives me, it has not conveyed justice to the aggrieved. If on the other hand, it comdemns me to death, it has not been merciful. You can't have both. It's an either or type of thing." mad mac, a merciful can be fair, impartial, honest, honorable, truthful-----just at the same time. althought Allah is a merciful God and He forgives sins, He is a Just God too. Allah can forgive a man like hitler if hilter asks and Allah can be fair and just. after all, is't Allah who showed us what is right and what is not in the books? to let go unpunished a rejector of what is good and a man like hitler would be injustice, right? this is not contradiction. the opposite of mericful is not just. ;-). the fact is that justice and mercy are attributes of Allah. they are also eternal principles. the "justice of God" is a principle so fundamental that without it, Allah would cease to be merciful God. of equivalent significance is God's mercy, which, broadly, is the ultimate source of all of the blessings of the human race and, specifically, is the principle that allows mankind's redemption. the competing demands of justice's claim for punishment and mercy's claim for forgiveness are toghether in the hand of Allah. on one hand, justice rewards righteousness. on the other, justice requires penalties as a consequence of disobedience to the laws of Allah. would Allah look upon sin with the least degree of allowance? ;-) (just as obedience to divine law leads to blessings, justice affixes a punishment to violation of the Allah's commandments. mad mac, let me ask you this: would the principle of mercy allow satan to get him in heaven? do you believe that satan will go to heaven and be with the rightious when this world ends? ;-) "Have you read the book or Mormon??" yes, but not all of it. ;-) "How do you know it has contradictions." i read it. ;-) "Actually the only contradiciton I could find was in that it recognizes the Bible as divine - a document which is full of contradictions." lol "But the book of Mormon itself is a well written piece that has some eminent logic trails." that is not truth. it has contradictions and i'll show you. ;-) "You should read it before you condemn it." i said i did and found in it contradiction. ;-) "The Mormons are remarkably like Muslims in many ways." yes, and in many ways, they are different in beliefs. ;-) "Remember that the Qur'an itself says that Christians are closest to Muslims - well the Mormons are the Christian sect which is closest to Islam." not the so called christians in this age. ;-) "No alcohol, no drugs, a belief in the sanctity of the family." so what? there are atheists who don't have no alcohol, no drugs and belief in the sanctity of the family. ;-) "You have closed your mind to everything that does not eminate from the Qur'an and this is a mistake." i told you that i read books in other faiths, but the Quran is the only Book that has no contradictions. all other books----the bible-----the new and old testaments and the book of morons have all contradictions. ;-) "Furthermore, you are unwilling to asknowledge even basic contradictions in the Qur'an which might undermine it's divinity." lol. i wish you just show your claim that the Quran has contradictions. saying it has does not help you. ;-) "That's your choice and I'm not really demonizing it - but I have to admit I regard the sanctimonity of your position with the same disdain I regard it in other faiths." and all i'm asking you is to prove your claim that the Quran has contradictions. ;-) "There is no one true faith." is this your wishful thinking? ;-) "Allah is, in my humble opinion, laughing at you all." lol here is the contradictions of the book of morons: THE BOOK OF MORMON Vs. ITSELF: 1. There was error in the Egyptian record --- Mormon 9:31-33. a) The egyptian record was correct --- P of. G. P., JS 1:64. 2. No one knew the Egyptian Language ---- Mormon 9:34. a) Yet Prof. Anthon Knew the language --- P of G P. JS. 1:64. 3. Plural marriages are condemned ---- Jacob 2:23-24, 26-28. a) Plural marriages are sanctioned ---- D&C 132:4, 32, 34, 37-39, 55. b) Original D&C 101:4 in 1835 p. 251 Section CI."Marriage" edition condemned plural marriages but was latter, in 1876, excluded from the D&C and D&C 132, which authorized plurality, was inserted. 4. Only one God --- Alma 11:36-39 cf Mosiah 15:4. a) D&C 132:37 --- their are many Gods. 5. Baptism is for the remission of sins ---- D&C 33:11. a) Pearl of Great Price Moses 6:51-65 ---- Adam was baptized after his sins were forgiven. 6. Water baptism is to be administer by elders --- D&C 20:38. a) Adam was bapt. in water by the Holy Ghost -- Pearl of Great Price, Moses 6:64-65. 7. Wine should be used in the Lord's Supper ---- D&C 89:5-6. a) Water may be used in the Lord's Supper --- D&C 27:2 , Articles of Faith p. 176. . Mormons claim that the North American Indians are the Lamanites of the book of Mormon....and that they sprang up from the people who migrated in the year 600 BC. 2. Further they claim that the book of Mormon is from these descendants of the Jews who settled here in America. 3. They further claim that the book of Mormon is the "stick of Ephraim" of Ezekiel's prophecy....chapt. 37. and that it should be brought forth and combined with the Bible, thus making it one Book...I Nephi 13; II Nephi 29. The Book of Mormon itself refutes this belief: a) According to the Book of Mormon the North American Indians are NOT the descendants of Ephraim, but rather of Manasseh.....Alma 10:2. 1) Logic thus says that the Book of Mormon could thus not be the "stick of Ephraim". b) This proves that the claim that the Book of Mormon is false by its own witnesses. c) II Nephi 1:28 ...claims they were descendants of Ishmael, hence also Manassehites. It is impossible, according to their own testimony, for Ezekiel to have been referring to the Book of Mormon as the "stick ". QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE TRUTHFULNESS OF JOSEPH SMITH, JUNIOR Claims of Joseph Smith: "That he is a descendent from Abraham:" ...cf.II Nephi 3:1-15,24a; Jacob 2:25; Doct. and Cov. 132:30 Yet, note a Letter from the Bureau of Information, dated April 14th, 1925, signed by Benjamin Goddard. "The prophet Joseph Smith was born in Vermont from good Puritan stock of course the family has descended from English ancestry." Joseph Smith was the only one to receive revelations, Doct. & Cov. 28:2,3...."with Authority". But the Scripture says, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on Earth"...this is Christ speaking....cf Matt. 28:18. Joseph Smith to be head of the church....Doc. & Cov. 28:6. But the Scriptures say, "That Christ is the Head of the church....cf Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:22-23". Is the Apostle Paul a liar??? Joseph Smith to possess the keys of the mysteries....D&C 90:2-4 But scripture says,"The keys of the Kingdom of Heaven were given to the apostles....Matt. 16:19. The mystery of God was made known by the apostles ....Rom.16:25-26; Eph. 3:1-11". a) NOTE: there is no such thing as the "keys of the mysteries" in the Bible. Joseph Smith could not tell the wicked from the righteous....D&C 10:37. But scripture says "that those who exercise themselves unto righteousness could so discern....cf Heb. 5:14" Joseph Smith ---- "All to be blessed through His seed." ---- D&C 124:58. All blessing were to come through Abraham's seed ---- Gen. 12:3 and this was Jesus Christ --- Gal 3:16, not Joseph Smith. STRANGE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON 1. No one could understand the writing on the plates...Mormon 9:32, 34 ..cf I Nephi 1:2. a) Yet the book of Mormon contends that there were three Nephite apostles then on the earth, and these had been here every moment since they were ordained by Christ, 1900 years ago....cf III Nephi 28:7. b) According to the Book of Mormon the plates were written in the "mother tongue" of these three apostles; could they not read or translate it??? 2. Portions of the Book were to be delivered to the learned, who when told that the book was sealed, should reply: ...."Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it."....cf II Nephi 27:15-18. a) Yet Smith says he copied some of the characters that were on the plates and Martin Harris took them to Prof. Anthon. b) Note this reading..."The translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct." ..cf Pearl of Great Price "JS" 1:64. 1) How could Prof. Anthon declare the "translation" was correct when the book of Mormon clearly says that no one on earth knew the language??? 2) If Prof, Anthon knew the translation to be correct, why did Joseph Smith have to have the "stones" by which to translate them, when he could have let Prof. Anthon do the work??? a) NOTICE THE LETTER BY PROF ANTON CONCERNING THIS: cf... Martin Kingdom of the Cults p. 181. c) Orson Pratt says concerning the same event: "Mr Harris, a farmer, presented the transcribed material of Joseph Smith into the hands of the deeply learned man, Prof. Anthon, of which he studied both ancient and modern languages. Mr Harris very anxiously requested him to read it, but he replied that he could not." cf. Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pg. 295. 1) Note: the contradiction between the two concerning the testimony of Prof. Anthon. The actual book of Mormon realizes that there are imperfections in the book itself and then offers the excuse why! ......Mormon 8:12 ; Mormon 9:33. a) They had the Hebrew language, because they were Jews: yet they wrote in Egyptian, something Hebrews never did, which left the imperfections. b) The Book of Mormon is so important that God kept it hidden for over a thousand years before bringing it forth, then He brought it forth with imperfections? 6. These things were written according to their memory....cf Ether 5:1. a) The Book of Mormon was to establish the truth of the Bible....cf I Nephi 13:40. b) The book of Mormon is to make known the precious things...cf I Nephi 13:40. 1) I Nephi 13:40 makes known that the Lamb is the Son of the Eternal Father. cf...John 1:29 ; 3:16 ; Matt.3:17. 2) According to this the fact was not established until the Book of Mormon came into being, which first was written on the plates and needed to be translated by Joseph Smith! The truth could not be established or believed until the Book of Mormon is read? 3) Cf....Rom 10:18 ; Col 1:23 The truth was preached to every creature under heaven before the death of Paul, but according to the Book of Mormon it was not yet made known. Is Paul then a Liar? 4) Also it made known that "all must come to Christ to be saved." Cf John 14:6. a) But I Nephi 13:41 says that all people must "come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb." b) If this is true then the Words of the New testament is sufficient. c) The Book of Mormon and the Bible are to become one..cf...I Nephi 13:41; II Nephi 29:14. 1) Yet notice this statement from the Talmage..."The cannon of scripture is still open; many lines, many precepts, are yet to be added; revelation surpassing in importance and glorious fullness any that has been recorded, is yet to be given to the church and declared to the world." ...cf Talmage, op.cit. p. 311 d) What portion of this history was recorded in the Book of Mormon??? cf. III Nephi 26:6-8 ..."he did not write even a 100th part, yet he did write the more part. Though he declares he did write the more part, he then says he wrote the lesser part. What portion did He write???
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 07:10 am SOME CONTRADICTIONS OF MORMONISM Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matthew 7:21 It is sad to contemplate the fact that not all who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ are actually following Him. The above passage points to the fact that one may even be deceiving self into believing they are right, when they are in reality following a false way. One such organization in which we find such people is Mormonism. Recently I heard that their membership now exceeds six million! The group itself was formed in 1836 by Joseph Smith, Jr. The religion of Mormonism (and those groups associated with it ... Reorganized Latter Day Saints, Temple Lot Church of Christ, etc.) is based on Joseph Smith's claim to have received golden plates from an angel of God (Moroni), which plates it is claimed he translated by the gift and power of God. This book is known as The Book of Mormon. He also is supposed to have received other revelations from God which are contained in their Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. The purpose of this work is to examine these works to see if they are in fact what they claim to be--of divine origin. In this examination we will follow the premise that truth harmonizes with truth; that is, if these words are of divine origin, they should all agree with one another and the Bible. I. Joseph Smith's Own Story In The Pearl of Great Price, section 2 is the record of his own story. Let's look to it and note some of the problems with it harmonizing with other of their works and the Bible. 1. First, one will have to decide which of four versions of the story they will accept. Many think that the version in the "Pearl" is the only one, yet there are four which vary in great ways. Differences include such things as: (1) his age at the time of his first vision -- variously given as from 14-16 years; (2) who appeared to him at that time -- Christ alone? Christ and the Father? Angels alone?; (3) his reason for being in the woods inquiring of God -- to know which sect was right? Because he knew through a study of the Scripture that all sects were wrong? To inquire if there really was a God? Since Joseph was supposedly guided by God in his writings, isn't it strange that there are these varied versions, each supported at different times by Joseph himself? The Articles of Faith These 13 articles, penned by Joseph Smith, claim to set forth briefly the basics of Mormon belief. Let's notice briefly 3 contradictions in this work, again showing it (as are all the works of Mormonism) to be the feeble work of man. 1. In verse 6 we are told, "We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church . . .." Though much could be said about such, suffice it to say such is a lie unless they can produce the New Testament pattern for their organization--Presidency, priesthoods, and other oddities. 2. In verse 7 we find the statement they believe in the miraculous powers of the New Testament era. One would wonder how then that even their President (who is to be a "seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet" - D&C 107:91-92) was recently deceived by Mark Hoffman and his false letters! Where were these "powers"? 3. In verse 12 they state "we believe in being subject to" the governmental powers. Yet history records that they were run out of Missouri because of rebellion against the government. Again, we are faced with an absurd work which contradicts reason, the Bible, and itself. The Book of Mormon vs The Book of Mormon One of the several proofs of the Bible is its unity; there are no contradictions within it. Such cannot be said of the Book of Mormon. 1. By Prophecy or not? (1) On the title page of the Book of Mormon we find the claim that it was "Written by way of commandment and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation," and even "the interpretation thereof by the gift of God." Unbelievably in the very next paragraph we find the statement, "And now if there are faults they are the mistakes of men!" It even gets worse after that. (2) You cannot even go past verse 3 of the first book without finding a like problem. Instead of upholding the claim of prophecy and inspiration we find the following statement in regard to the record contained in the Book of Mormon: ."..I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge" (1 Nephi 1:3) (emphasis mine - JHW). (3) Again in the same book in chapter 19 we find Nephi told to make a record. Of his ability to do this he says, "Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old . . ." (1 Nephi 19:6) (emphasis mine - JHW). (4) Also look to Jacob 2:26; Ether 5:1; Mormon 8:12. All these passages and more claim that the record found in the Book of Mormon is in error! (5) In spite of the claim of being interpreted "by the gift of God" there have been well over 3,000 changes in the book. Is this the "spirit of prophecy and of revelation" of which we are told in the title page? 2. Baptism essential or not? (1) In 3 Nephi 11:33,3 we find the teaching that baptism is essential to one's salvation, ."..whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned." (2) Just a few chapters earlier we read of those that "should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received remission of their sins" (3 Nephi 7:25) (emphasis mine - JHW). 3. Flesh and blood or Spirit? (1) Alma 22:9-11 teaches that God is a Spirit. (2) Ether 3:9 (and also Doctrine and Covenants 130:22) teaches that He is flesh and blood! 4. All powerful, or idiot? (1) Many are the references in the Book of Mormon to the greatness and power of God. For example, the brother of Jared exclaims at one point, "...I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man..." (Ether 3:4). (2) In the same context we find God tells the Jaredites to build football shaped barges like they have built before (2:16). He even tells them the length . . . "the length of a tree!" [You tell me how long a tree is! - JHW] After they build them just like God tells them, they find they can't see, nor breath in them, and can't even steer them (2:18-19)! What happened to this "God?" Remember, this aren't even the first ones, they had built them before! One wonders how many people had died in the previous crafts because of such blunders on the part of their "God!" But it gets worse in that this great "God" has to begin asking the brother of Jared how to solve the problem (2:23,25). Of course God was able to solve one of the problems Himself. In order for them to get air, He tells them to put a hole in the top and bottom. If they need air, pull it out, but if water comes in, stop it up again (2:20)! We suppose they find out which is best to pull by trial and error. And this is supposed to be the great and powerful God? Again we come away from our examination of Mormon works seeing their great lacking. As the title page says, "if there are faults they are the mistakes of men"--we ought not to blame such on God. From this brief examination of the "inspired works" of Mormonism we find that by no stretch of the imagination can any one of them substantiate a claim of divine origin. As Joseph Smith himself said, "Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men" (Doctrine and Covenants 3:3).
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 07:32 am "An Examination of the Book of Mormon and its Chief Witnesses: Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints claimed that he received the Book of Mormon as a revelation from God. He said that the heavenly being Moroni appeared to him and directed him to some buried gold plates which contained ancient writings. His task then, was to translate these ancient writings with the help of seer stones which were also buried with the gold plates. Smith received strict directions from the heavenly being that he was to show the plates to no one except for appointed individuals. The Book of Mormon in its preface identifies these as eleven persons: the three witnesses and the eight witnesses. A student of religion would now be interested in knowing something about these witnesses, for only then can we evaluate their worth as witnesses. The Book of Mormon names the three witnesses as Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. The book also names the eight witnesses as follows: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. Who were these persons? And what can we know about them that would give us reason to either believe or disbelieve them as witnesses in this most important matter? A good place to look for information would be the publications of the Mormons themselves, since they should more than anyone else be interested in preserving histories of their principal witnesses. This approach could be used at least as a starting point for gathering information before further scrutiny and investigative work. In this study I would like to turn to two books published by the Mormons to find information about the chief witnesses. The first book is the Doctrine and Covenant, a book of authoritative scriptures for the Mormons. The second book is Church History Timeline by William W. Slaughter, published by Desert Book Company, in Salt Lake City, Utah, 1996. What follows is a brief look at the information these books contain about the witnesses and other key persons associated with the Book of Mormon. My intention here is not to provide a summary of the entire body of information but only to show that what we learn from these books do not give us much confidence in the witnesses and hence in the Book of Mormon itself. The first of the three witnesses is Oliver Cowdery, a rural schoolteacher. He was a scribe to Joseph Smith, and associate president of the Church. In April 12,1838 he was excommunicated from the Mormon Church. He was rebaptized ten years later in November 1848 and died March 3, 1850. Reading this, one must wonder why this chief witness was excommunicated during the lifetime of Joseph Smith his prophet, and be allowed back in the church after his prophet died. Smith was martyred on June 27, 1844. The second of the three witnesses is Martin Harris. He was a prosperous farmer who was known as industrious, honest, and generous. It was his $3000 that financed the first 5,000 copies of the Book of Mormon. But, as William Slaughter informs us: Harris clashed with Church leaders over monetary practices and was excommunicated in December 1837; he was rebaptized November 27, 1842. (Church History Timeline, p. 5). The same Martin Harris was given 116 pages of the book of Mormon after Joseph Smith had translated them with the help of the seer stones. But then he allowed wicked men to take these pages for the purpose of corrupting the translation and then to accuse Joseph Smith of falsehood in his prophetic claim. Why would Martin Harris do this? The Doctrine and Covenants explains that he was a wicked man who sought to destroy Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith relates in his history how Martin Harris had previously taken sample characters from the book of Mormon along with the relevant translation of those characters and received confirmation of these in New York City from a professor Charles Anton and Dr. Mitchell. These men attested that the characters were true characters of the Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriae and Arabic, and that the translation so far done by Joseph Smith was accurate. Now, one may wonder why did Harris, after he had received this confirmation, should seek to destroy Joseph Smith. And what value should we attach to the testimony of a man who sought to destroy one whom he believed was God's prophet? Since the Doctrine and Covenants call Harris a wicked man, should we place confidence in his testimony? Or should we believe the Doctrine and Covenants? But to believe in the Doctrine and Covenants which was revealed to Joseph Smith we have to first believe the Book of Mormon which was revealed to him before that. And to believe the Book of Mormon we have to believe its witnesses. We are still at the early stage of examining the witnesses. The third of the three witnesses is David Whitmer. The whole Whitmer family had become interested in the translating of the Book of Mormon, and it was at the residence of this family that Joseph Smith lived until he completed the work of translating the Book of Mormon from the gold plates. Others in the Whitmer family are numbered among the eight witnesses, but David alone had the privilege of being among the select three witnesses. Nevertheless, Doctrine and Covenants describe David Whitmer as one who fears men and does not rely on the Lord (D&C 30: 1). Doctrine and Covenants tells us that he had his mind on the things of the earth (D&C 30:2), and was persuaded by those whom the Lord did not command. This is in spite of the fact that he had been called as was Paul (D&-C 18:9). Paul, however, was not believed by Christians to have become an apostate. Yet David Whitmer was excommunicated in April 1838, about the same time as Oliver Cowdery, the first of the three witnesses. Oliver Cowdery we recall was later rebaptized after the death of Joseph Smith. But David Whitmer never came back to the Church. He died forty-nine years later as an apostate. One must again ask why the chief witnesses waver like this. Two fell away and came back. One fell away and never came back. Their wavering from this initial position of commitment to the revelations is not exactly the thing that will inspire confidence. Mormons point out that these three witnesses never denied their initial testimony even when they were excommunicated from the church. The Church History Timeline even includes a positive testimony from David Whitmer for the record. Whitmer said that although it is recorded that he had denied his testimony as one of the three witnesses, neither he nor the other two had at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. Yet actions speak louder than words. The fact that these men relinquished their commitment to the revelations reduces the weight of their testimony. Two of the witnesses repented and were baptized, and this makes them obviously better witnesses than David Whitmer who never came back. Yet their many years of being out of the church makes us wonder how firmly they believed their own testimony. Mormons will say that the important thing is not the witness of men but the witness of God. They will advise the inquirer to pray about the Book of Mormon to find out whether or not it is true. But, obviously, the publishers of the Book of Mormon considered the testimony of the men to be worthy of note. Prayer is important. Investigation is also important. Once the witnesses are presented, they should be examined. If the Mormon message says that the witness of men is not important why then do they print the list of witnesses in the book? When we turn to the list of eight witnesses we notice three significant things. First, the list is not as diverse as the number would apparently suggest. The eight witnesses are four from the Whitmer family, three from the Smith family, and one Hiram Page. As for the Whitmers, we noted already how the best of them, David Whitmer received the distinction of being one of the elite group of three witnesses. We have also seen how he fell away permanently and died an apostate. Nevertheless, his brothers kept up their commitment to the revelations. The Smiths were Joseph Smith's father and two of his brothers. One of the brothers, Hyrum, was martyred together with Joseph, and the other, Samuel, died a month later. The father had died some years before that. The second significant thing is that this Hiram Page also claimed revelations for himself. He also, like Joseph Smith, had a seer stone which enabled him to write revelations from God. But God declared, in the doctrine and Covenants that those revelations are not from him but from Satan (D&C 28: 11). What then is the value of Hiram Page as a witness about revelations from God? The third significant fact about the eight witnesses is that their testimony is not as important as the testimony of the three. The three had borne witness not only that they saw the plates but also that they saw the angel and that they heard the voice of God who said that the book was authentic and the translation was accurate. The eight witnesses, on the other hand, only said that they had seen the plates "which have the appearance of gold" (preface to the Book of Mormon). They also handled the plates and saw the engravings "which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship." The eight witnesses did not say anything to assure readers that they knew the origin of the plates, or the accuracy of the Book of Mormon. What their testimony bears out is that Joseph Smith showed them some plates which had the appearance of gold and the engravings which they could not decipher. But they believed that Smith was translating those engravings to produce the Book of Mormon. Could we call them expert witnesses? More Fall Away Not only did many of the chief witnesses of the Book of Mormon fall away. We find in Mormon literature that many others who were close confidants and associates of Joseph Smith could not stick with his mission after they once professed belief in it. William was the only brother of Joseph Smith who lived on for a long time after him. William was loyal to Joseph and remained a believer until 1845 at which time he was excommunicated from the church. Thirty-three years later he joined a splinter group which broke off from the Mormon Church (Church History Timeline, p. 3). Federick G. Williams was one of the first high priests of the Church, and the second counsellor in the initial First Presidency(1833). Before joining the Church he was a prosperous and respected physician. He became a close friend of Joseph Smith, and played an active role in building the temple at Kirkland in Ohio. He helped to select the revelations to be included in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. His list of accomplishments go on. Yet he was rejected as second counsellor in 1837 and excommunicated in 1838. He was restored to fellowship a year later, and died two years after that (Church History Timeline, p.9). One wonders why a man who was so close to Joseph Smith, and so highly placed in the Church, should be excommunicated ever. William Wines Phelps was a scribe to Joseph Smith in the translation of the Book of Abraham, which is included in the authoritative scriptures of the Mormons. He also wrote much of what is included in the hymnal. Yet he was excommunicated in 1839 and readmitted in 1841 (Church History Timeline, p. 11). Thomas B. Marsh was the first president of the Quorum of Twelve. He was also called to fill in as acting president of the Church when David Whitmer (third of the three witnesses) had fallen away. Marsh and his wife quarrelled with the Saints over a trivial matter and soon became alienated from the Church. He was excommunicated in March 1839 and came back eighteen years later (Church History Timeline, P. 11). Why? Lyman Wight joined the Church in 1830, became an apostle in 1841, and was excommunicated in 1848 for rejecting the leadership of Joseph Smith's successor. He moved to Texas to form his own splinter group (Church Timeline, p. 13). John C. Bennett was a doctor, mayor of Nauvoo, Illinois, and chancellor of the Nauvoo University. He was also major-general of the Nauvoo Legion. On April 8, 1841, Joseph Smith called him as assistant president in the First Presidency. Sexual misconduct led to his disfellowshipment in 1842 and his excommunication the following year. He then went on to publish a hateful book against the Church entitled The History of the Saints; or, An Expose of Joe Smith and Mormonism. (Timeline, p. 14) Emma Hale Smith was the wife of Joseph Smith. When her parents did not agree for them to be married, Joseph eloped with her and they got married in 1827. She then helped Joseph with the Book of Mormon translation. She was also called to select hymns for the first hymnal, and was the first president of the Relief Society. God revealed that he had given Emma in marriage to Joseph. God's sealing of this marriage would mean for Mormons that it is sealed for all eternity. Emma is therefore admonished by God that she must cleave unto Joseph "and to none else," otherwise God would destroy her (D&C 132:54). One is then surprised to find that three years after Joseph's martyrdom, Emma married Lewis Bidamon. Nevertheless, she is buried next to Joseph (Timeline, p. 15). William Law was a wealthy businessman. He became a Nauvoo City councilman and was named second counsellor to Joseph Smith in 1841. He broke with the Church over polygamy and was excommunicated in April 1844. Law openly opposed Joseph and helped to publish the Nauvoo Expositor, an anti-Mormon writing (Timeline, p. 18). Joseph Smith destroyed the press where the Nauvoo Expositor was published. This led to his arrest for treason. While Joseph and his brother Hyrum were in jail, on June 27,1844 a mob of 200 men gathered to kill him. Joseph, somehow armed, shot back at them, but he and his brother both died that day. (Timeline, p. 18) Sidney Rigdon was one of Joseph's closest advisors and was first counsellor in the First Presidency from 1833 to 1844. He helped Joseph to produce a new and corrected translation of the Bible, and worked with him also on the Book of Moses, which is included in the Mormon Scriptures. He claimed the right to lead the Church after Joseph Smith died in the summer of 1844. But when the Church rejected his claim he refused to be a mere follower, and he was excommunicated in the fall of that year. He then moved to Pennsylvania and started his own church (Timeline, p. 19). Samuel Braman was baptized in 1833, and presided over the Eastern Saints. He was excommunicated in 1851 (Timeline, p. 22). Orson Pratt was one of the original 12 apostles. He was a writer, mathematician, and pioneer. He was excommunicated in 1843 and reinstated a year later. (Timeline, p. 22) From the above information it is clear that many of the most significant persons who followed Joseph Smith fell away from his mission during his lifetime or shortly afterwards. Some came back, others stayed away permanently. The lack of consistency in these persons makes it difficult for an observer to have confidence in the truth of Joseph's claim to be a spokesman for God. The above information is all taken from the writings which are friendly to the Mormon Church. One of those is a writing actually recognized as authoritative scripture for them. So the information cannot be biased against the Mormon Church. If anything, the information should be favorable to the Church. We expect that an outsider book may not present the Mormon faith in good a light as these insider book does. Yet the light from these books is not bright enough to inspire the kind of confidence a person would dive for. The individuals spoken of above are not a few isolated individuals selected for sensationalism. They are most of those who had important positions with Joseph and his Church. What we have seen is sufficient to make us wonder about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. The three witnesses all fell away; two returned. One of the eight witnesses claimed to receive revelations in a similar manner to Joseph Smith. The scribes who worked with Joseph to write down what he dictated of the revelations of God did not remain faithful. Oliver Cowdery left and did not return during Joseph's lifetime. One hundred and sixteen pages of the translated book once placed in the hands of Martin Harris ended up into the hands of enemies who sought to destroy Joseph Smith by perverting his book. The book Church History Timeline, p. 4, says the pages were stolen from Harris. But Doctrine and Covenants reveal that Harris himself was one of the enemies who sought to destroy the prophet (D&C 10:6-7). He no longer acted as scribe for Joseph after this incident (Timeline, p. 4). No, these were not isolated individuals. The book Church History Timeline highlights all of the most important persons in the Church's history. On page 4, one person is shown. He fell away. On page 5, two persons are shown. Both fell away. On page 9, one person is shown. He fell away. On page 11, two persons are shown. Both fell away. On page 13, two are shown; one fell. On page 14, two are shown; one fell On page 18, two are shown: William Law and Joseph Smith. William disagreed with Joseph and fell away. On page 19, one person is shown. He went away to start his own church. On page 22, two persons are featured. Both fell away. Many of these men, as we have seen, did come back into the Church. But their loss of faith at one time must Be taken seriously. And what do we make of those who never came back ? How Muslims can help Mormons Speak to Mormons with love and deep concern for their salvation in the life hereafter. Help them to see that the early Muslims remained devoted to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in all circumstances, because they were thoroughly convinced that he was God's messenger. They believed his words, rushed to carry out his orders, and risked their lives to defend the Qur'an. Some of the worst enemies of the prophet eventually became convinced about the truth of his message, and once they announced their new faith nothing could later distract them. Muslims should also help Mormons to understand how much emphasis Muslims place on the reliability of witnesses. In order to even verify a single statement of the prophet Muhammad, pbuh, we need witnesses whose character and faith are without doubt. Those who relate sayings from the prophet must be known for their absolute honesty, impeccable piety, remarkable memory, and strict adherence to the prophet's teachings. If Mormons can appreciate this principle of historical verification, they may look at Mormon and Islamic histories in a new way and decide for themselves which should inspire more confidence and faith. Help Mormons to become acquainted with the Qur'an, which is by itself alone a witness to its own truth by remaining in its original language and form for all to see. A Muslim would have a copy of the Qur'an in its original Arabic text, perhaps also with a translation into another language. Show your visitors that the angel who brought the message to the prophet did not take away the message but left it for all to see. Yes, we do not have to rely on human witnesses alone. Although many persons did testify that they were present when the angel delivered the Qur'an to the prophet over time, and many others attested to the impeccable character and truthfulness of the prophet 'pbuh, we do not have to rely on them alone. Today the Qur'an can still be examined. Millions of human beings have been examining this book throughout the centuries. Some study it in its original language, others through a translation. Millions now attest to the fact that the Qur'an is the best witness that it is indeed a revelation from God. Perhaps you can help your Mormon visitors to know the Qur'an and be saved. Mormons are sincere persons working hard to spread their message. You can help them redirect their energies to working for God's message which he revealed to his prophet Muhammad, pbuh, through the angel Gabriel. God says in the Qur’an: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Qur’an 3:85)"
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| | Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 07:49 am Muslim Belief Vs Mormon Belief" About God: God Muslims only believe in one God If there were in the heavens and the earth other gods besides Allah there would have been confusion in both! But glory to Allah the Lord of the Throne: (high is He) above what they attribute to Him! Quran 21:22 A Muslim believes in ONE GOD, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider. God has neither father nor mother, neither sons nor was He fathered. None equal to Him. God is the Loving and the Provider, the Generous, and the Benevolent, the Rich and the Independent, the Forgiving and the Clement, the Patient and the Appreciative, the Unique and the Protector, the Judge and the Peace. God's attributes are mentioned in the Quran. Mormons Believe in 3 gods who are one godhead The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings who constitute one Godhead (Encyclopedia of Mormonism) Mormons believe god is made of Flesh and blood and born a man exalted to godhood. "Latter-day Saints perceive the Father as an exalted Man in the most literal, anthropomorphic terms. They do not view the language of Genesis as allegorical; human beings are created in the form and image of a God who has a physical form and image." Encyclopedia of Mormonism. "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost . These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other." Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Latter-day Saints infer from authoritative sources of scripture and modern prophecy that there is a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father." Encyclopedia of Mormonism About Jesus: Muslims. A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this. About Jesus: Mormons. First article of faith: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Previous prophets: Muslims All accepted, respected, and believed. Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." Quran 3:83 Previous prophets: Mormans. Believe in all the Prophets of the Bible and Prophets of the Book of Mormon who lived in America that are the lost tribe of Israel that sailed to America. Modern Prophets: In 1820, young Joseph Smith prayed to know which church he should join had a revelation and became the founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. After his murder he was succeeded by the following people in the Mormon prophethood/presidency: Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Grant, George Albert Smith, David O. McKay, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Howard W. Hunter, and the current Mormon prophet is Gordon B. Hinckley. ll these "prophets" receive revelations from God. The Bible: Muslims. Muslims believe in the books of the previous prophets including the "Torah" which was sent to Moses, the "Zaboor" (Psalms) which were given to David, the "Injeel" (Gospel) which was given to Jesus, and the Qur’an which was given to Muhammad However, Muslims are told that the previous scriptures were tampered with by mankind and the Bible should only be accepted in as far as it is confirmed by the Qur’an. It is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the Qur’an are to be rejected as the work of mankind. The Bible: Mormon. Eighth article of Faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Muhammad: Muslims. The last messenger of God to all of humanity. He was known as "The Truthful, the Trustworthy" before he received his first revelation. He was sent by God as a mercy to all creation. He was a human being but performed a number of miracles during his lifetime by the will of God. Muhammad: Mormons. In the words of a Mormon who emailed me on the topic: " I believe Muhammad to be a prophet. I believe God has sent many prophets throughout the history....."On a follow up email this Mormon wrote" I started studying the life of Muhammad a while ago in school, but that was from an Israeli perspective. I have continued my research as a school project, and have become very interested in his life. I am familiar with what he accomplished in life, and from what I have learned, he seems to me to have been a very kind, generous, humble man and a strong leader. Also, Mormons are not without their beliefs that God has spoken to many men throughout history, and it is my personal belief that he spoke to Muhammad." I still have the original emails. Religious Leaders: Muhammad final prophet Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. Quran 33:40 A Brief look at the life of the Prophet He was forty years old , during Ramadan, an angel came to visit him, and announced that God had chosen him as His messenger to all mankind. The first revelation was: In the name of God, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Read: with the name of thy Lord Who created, Created man from what clings, Read: and thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who taught by the pen, Taught man what he knew not. Quran 96:1-5 He returned home frightened. Muhammad wife Khadeeja comforted him, saying that he had always been a man of charity and generosity, helping the poor, the orphans, the widows and the needy, and God would never do anything to such a good person. Muhammad is the very last Prophet of God to mankind. He is the final Messenger of God. His message was and is still for all mankind. He was sent to the people to inform them about the true mission of Jesus, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham and the other holy prophets. During his 23 years of prophethood he was told by to tell the people to believe in God, in Resurrection and the Day of Judgment. He also performed many Miracles. To this day not one letter of the revelation given to him has changed this is a living Miracle. In 1820 the First Vision of Joseph Smith "occurred" when he was 14 years old, he was praying in some woods about which if any of the churches (christian) was right? These questions were raised in Joseph's mind by a religious revival going on in his town. During his prayer he saw two people, God the Father and his twin his Son Jesus Christ. Joseph asked the TWO SEPARATE GODS which of all the sects was right, the answer was none of them. In 1827 the Angel Moroni "gives" Joseph Smith gold plates for him to translate to the book of Mormon. These plates are stories "were" compiled by the Jew-American prophets thousands of years earlier. Joseph Smith never shows anyone these gold plates but rather translated them with a seer stone. He placed this stone inside his top hat and placed his face into in and started his translation of the Book of Mormon. On June 27, 1844 Joseph Smith was in jail when a mob attacks, Smith kills two men with a pistol then is overwhelmed an Killed. Brigham Young takes the prophethood and leads the Mormons to my home town of Salt Lake City. Jesus That he was sent by God as a messenger to the Jews in order to return them to the pure and true religion of Moses, and to relieve them of some of the regulations which had been placed upon them in ancient times. He taught them to have faith as well as works. Neither one can stand alone. BORN MIRACULOUSLY Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity and he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it `Be' and it is! Quran 3:45-47 Mormon "GOD" JESUS BEGOTTEN "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115) The original sin There is no such thing. Humanity is created by God destined for heaven unless they chose to disobey Him and refuse His mercy. God can very trivially and effortlessly forgive the sins of all of Humanity no matter if they were to fill the lofty regions of the sky. Such a matter would be trivial and inconsequential for Him since He has already done much more than that such as creating everything we can ever see, hear or imagine. He loves to bestow His mercy and forgiveness on His creation and rewards the most trivial acts with the most tremendous rewards. In order to achieve God’s reward one must have faith as well as works Second article of faith: We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. The atonement Adam "atoned" for his sin by saying "My Lord I have sinned and if you do not forgive me and have mercy upon me then I shall indeed have lost." So God forgave him. Similarly, all human beings have the door to forgiveness left open to them by God until the day they die. There are no intermediaries between mankind and God. If they sincerely repent to God, ask His forgiveness, and forsake their evil deeds before their hour comes then He shall forgive them and there is nothing more pleasing to Him than to forgive the sins of one who comes to Him in sincere repentance. "The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foreordained but voluntary act of the Only Begotten Son of God. He offered his life, including his innocent body, blood, and spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom (1) for the effect of the Fall of Adam upon all mankind and (2) for the personal sins of all who repent, from Adam to the end of the world." Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Encyclopedia of Mormonism Third article of faith: We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The path to salvation and hereafter beliefs If you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work. Life After Death Muslims believe that each person has a body and soul. At death, your body is separated from your soul. Your faith and actions in this life will determine your fate in the Life After. There is a Day of Judgment when this life will come to an end for every one, and all humans from Adam to the last person, will be brought to a second life, rejoining of your body and soul. On that Day, God will put people in Hell or based on their beliefs and deeds of this life. Can Attain Godhood in hereafter: Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th president of the Mormon Church, . In a broadcast to those serving in priesthood, Kimball commented: "Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods." (The Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 80) The Hereafter When a person dies they will end up in 1 of 4 places 1) Celestial Kingdom - You can become A GOD 2) Terrestrial Kingdom- You reject Mormonism but still live a peace full existence . 3) Telestial Kingdom - The wicked go here 4) Outer Darkness - Followers of Satan live in darkness with Satan. What Mormons say about Islam - interesting reading: http://mormons.org/daily/interfaith/world/Islam_EOM.htm
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| | Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 05:20 am I can see I'm going to have to bring in the heavy artillery.
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| | Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 09:09 am i am afraid that will not help you either. ;-).
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| | Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 09:34 am i mean we have seen the heavy artilleries of yours before and any kind of tactics you have threw out there. when things got tough for you----we have seen what people like you do----from the bizarre----where you try shock people with your blasphemy----in order to throw people off-----to more lies is easy to catch, but none worked with me. ;-) mad mac----is forgiveness and mercy against justice? i mean, do you consider justice to be against grace and benevolence? ;-) injustice, in its absolute connotation actually implies to give someone less than what he or she deserves or to put on someone a burden, which is bigger than what he or she deserves. while in its relative connotation, injustice implies to deal with people in a manner, which is based on disparity among those people, right? you didn't answer my question about this topic before: do you believe that satan or a man like hilter and those who act like him or a rapist should get equal treatment with rest of people? do you believe that satan will go to heaven and be with the righteous? ;-) about the mormons and your claim that there is no contradiction in their books is yet another lie of yours which needed to be pointed out. there is more information about the book that needs to be pointed out if you ask for it. but what is needed from you is to show your claim----where the Quran contradicts itself. do you think just throwing out lies and saying the Quran has contradictions will work for you without evidence? try very hard and bring all the heavy artilleries and we will see if they produce evidence for you in what you say, okay? ;-)
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| | Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 11:53 pm The heavy artillery I speak of is some local Mormon missionaries. They will be hapy to address this. It's just going to take me a little while to find them again, so bare with me here.
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| | Monday, March 05, 2001 - 02:15 am okay, take your time. as i said your claim that there is no contradiction in their book is yet another lie of yours which needed to be pointed out. there is more information about the book that needs to be pointed out if you ask for it. ;-)
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| | Monday, March 05, 2001 - 02:29 am Lie???? There you go again. Couldn't say misconception or error - no it's a lie. How can an otherwise reasonably intelligent man be so oblivious to the meanings and connotations of the English language I just don't know.
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| | Monday, March 05, 2001 - 06:37 am mad mac--the reason what you are keep saying is not an error or misconception is that you keep saying the same things again and again and i'm here to point out to you the facts. i told you to bring evidence if you are not lying. i told you that what is needed from you is to show your claim----where the Quran contradicts itself. do you think just throwing out lies and saying the Quran has contradictions will work for you without evidence? try very hard and bring all the heavy artilleries and we will see if they produce evidence for you in what you say, okay? speaking of lairs or lies, i read some where the explanation why people lie. it says: to increase their sense of importance, to escape punishment, to gain an end that would otherwise be denied them, out of long-standing habit, or something because they actually do not know the difference between fact and fancy. let us pretend (not to get personal, but only to help you become personally involved in the ideas and words) that you are a lair. the question is, what kind of a lair are you? --you don't fool even some of the people----a notorious lair. everybody knows your propensity for avoiding facts. you have built so solid and unsavory a reputation that only a stranger is likely to be misled----and then, not for long. --to the highest summits of artistry---a consummate lair. your ability is top-drawer---rerely does anyone lie as convincingly as artistically as you do. your skills has, in short, reached the zenith of perfection. indeed, your mastery of art is so great that your lying is almost always crowned with success----and you have no trouble seducing an unwary listener into believing that you are telling gospel truth. --beyond redemption or salvation----an incorrigible lair. you are impervious to correction. often as you may be caught in your fabrications, there is no reforming you---you go right on lying despite the punishment, embarressment, or unhappiness that your distortions of truth may bring upon you. --too old to learn new tricks-----an inveterate lair. you are the victim of firmly fixed and deep-rooted habits. telling untruths is as frequent and customery an activity as brushing your teeth in the morning, or having toast and coffee for break-fast, or lighting up a cigarette after dinner (if you are a smoker). and almost as reflexive. --an early start---a congenital lair. you have such a long history of persistent falsification that one can only suspect that your vice started when you were reposing in your mother's womb. in other words, and allowing for a great deal of exaggeration for effect, you have been lying from the moment of your birth. --no letup---a chronic lair. you never stop lying. while normal people lie on occasion, and often for specail reasons, you lie continually--not occasionally or even frequently, but over and over. --a strange disease---a pathological lair. you are not concerned with the difference between truth and fasehood; you don't bother t distinguish fact from fantasy. in fact, your lying is a disease that no antibiotic can cure. --no regrets--an unconsicionable lair. you are completely without a conscience. no matter what misery your fabrications may cause your innocent victims, you never feel the slightest twingle of guilt. totally unscrupuluous, you are a dangerous person to get mixed up with. --smooth--a glib lair. possessed of a lively imagination and a ready tongue, you can distort facts as smoothly and as effortlessly as you can say your name. but you do not always get away with your lies. ironically enough, it is your very smoothness that makes you suspect: your answers are too quick to be true. even if we can't immediately catch you in your lies, we have learned from unhappy past experience not to suspect our critical factulies when you are talking. we admire your nimble, but we listen with a skeptical ear. --outstanding--an egregious lair. lies, after all, are bad--they are frequently injurious to other people, and may have a particularly dangerous effect on you as a lair. at best, if you are caught you suffer some embarressment. at worst, if you succeed in your deception, your character becomes warped and your sense of values suffers. almost all lies are harmful; some are no less than vicious. if you are one type of lair, all your lies are vicious--calculatedly predeterminedly, coldly and advisedly vicious. in short, your lies are so outstandingly hurtful that people gasp in amazement and disgust at hearing them.
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| | Monday, March 05, 2001 - 10:42 am A Norwich cadet does not lie, cheat, steal, evade the truth or Conspire to deceive. I have engaged in none of these with you. Because I see things differently than you do, because I see contradictions where you see none (and Ihave many times pointed out my number one - the conflict between justice and mercy) does not mean I am lying. In the English language, calling someone a liar is a deliberate attempt to insult and the word is used judiciously. In less gentile places in America, using this word can get your head blown off - sort of like calling someone a motherfucker in Somalia.
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| | Monday, March 05, 2001 - 12:28 pm "A Norwich cadet does not lie, cheat, steal, evade the truth or Conspire to deceive. I have engaged in none of these with you." this very funny. if you ask me, this honor code of norwich cadet is worth the paper it is written on. although it is an honor cote, are you saying no norwich cadet ever lied? if you are saying this, then you are again lying. ;-) i'm afraid in next time, you are going to tell me that every norwich cadet graduate (including mad mac) was and is an angel or a prophet and sin free. ;-). it is like tellying you that a muslim does not lie, cheat, steal, evade the truth or Conspire to deceive, but that would be lie. no one is sin free. ;-) "Because I see things differently than you do, because I see contradictions where you see none (and Ihave many times pointed out my number one - the conflict between justice and mercy) does not mean I am lying." well, i asked you questions--------is forgiveness or mercy against justice? i mean, do you consider justice to be against grace and benevolence? do you believe that satan or a man like hilter and those who act like him or a rapist should get equal treatment with rest of people? in the god you believe in, do believe that he will make satan go to heaven and be with the righteous? ;-) "In the English language, calling someone a liar is a deliberate attempt to insult and the word is used judiciously." in any language (including the english language) calling a person who lied a liar is rational. ;-) "In less gentile places in America, using this word can get your head blown off - sort of like calling someone a motherfucker in Somalia." it does not matter where i be (in america or in somalia), i'm not afraid of telling like it is. i have called many people lairs in somalia and in american and people call me a lair------i didn't see anyone get his or her head blown off. when i was a kid growing up in somalia, i called many kids mother----- in somali language and i am sure i received the same name calling-------without getting into fights. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:40 am But you aren"t telling it like it is, rather you are telling it like you think it is. You don't occupy some special moral place in the world where you are the adjudicator and all other positions are invalid. I told you that Justice and Mercy are in direct conflict. That that is a contradiction. You can not be merciful and just. You can choose to reject this, but it does notmake me a liar.
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 05:59 am "But you aren"t telling it like it is, rather you are telling it like you think it is." i'm telling it like it is. if i was not telling like it is, you would have answered my questions i put to you. you are saying mad mac does not commit sin----does not lie, cheat, steal, evade the truth or conspire to deceive. this is a lie. ;-) "You don't occupy some special moral place in the world where you are the adjudicator and all other positions are invalid." no, i'm not the one saying he occupies some special moral place; you are. you are saying you (mad mac---as a norwich cadet) is a special person-----like a prophet----who does not sin and i'm tellying you that you are not special. i'm tellying you that you are not sin free; no one is. ;-) "I told you that Justice and Mercy are in direct conflict. That that is a contradiction. You can not be merciful and just. You can choose to reject this, but it does notmake me a liar." if you are not *lying* and if you are not *evading the truth*, answer this question i asked you before: do you believe that satan or a man like hilter and those who act like him or a child molester should get equal treatment with rest of people-----i mean, in the god you mad mac believe in, do believe he will make satan go to heaven and be with the righteous? do you believe your god is contradicting himslef if he separates good from evil? if your god contradicts himself; my God does not. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 12:12 pm I never said I didn't sin. Although to be honest I would be hard-pressed to define "sin". Well sometimes I would be hard pressed. I said I don't lie, cheat, steal evade the truth or conspire to deceive. I did not rule out all sin. First question: Do I belive that Satan or a man like Hitler should get equal treatment with the rest of people? Answer: The operative word here is should. To get more to your point Should a man who commits grievous sin be treated the same as one who does not? Not in the here and now, no. But in the after-life? I leave that to Allah. I can't tell you what should happen, it is echelons so far above me that I don't contemplate it. I do know we can not assess or compare the hereafter with life on Earth - I feel conficent of this. Second Question: Will the God I believe in make Satan go to heaven? Well, I don't believe in a day of judgement. BUT, I do believe that what goes around comes around. That there is balance in life, that debts accrued must somehow be paid. Hitler (or Satan) has a debt so huge I don't know how it can be paid. I have considered the possibility though that Satan is the flip side of God. That is, God represents all that is good and Satan all that is evil, and they are equally strong. Without going into the details, I don't think you can have good without bad. Good and evil are opposites, God doesn't seperate them, they seperate themselves like oil and vinegar. BUT, and this is a big but, we all have good and evil residing within us. I do believe in the phrase "No one can rise higher than the highest which is in each of us, and no one can fall lower than the lowest." In other words, I don't believe that people SOULS are superior to the others. I gues in my heart I believe that this is a sort of training ground, once the key lessons are learned you move on to somewhere else for further training. Like a journey. If you don't learn so well, you come back for remedial training. I know there's a God, but beyond that I believe all else is speculation. I have my theories, but I would never go so far as to say what I believe is right and what others believe is wrong. I might not accept what others beleive, but I'm smart enough to know I could be mistaken. I do believe that when you talk to God he talks back - you don't need a book, you can talk to him yourself.
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:00 pm Mad Mac, Here's another contradiction of two supposedly divine attributes I came across: If God is OMNISCIENT it means God knows all things, including things happening in the future. If God is OMNIPOTENT, He can do anything He wants, and nothing is impossible for him. Now, let's say God looks into the future and sees a ship carrying a thousand people sink into the ocean, killing all the passengers. Now let's say God felt merciful, and wanted to save these poor souls: when the time comes (since He's omnipotent), He prevents the ship from sinking. Therefore the ship never sinks. But this contradicts His early knowledge that the ship would sink. What He saw before was false, because He failed to see that He would save the people; so He can't be omniscient. But if God always sees the truth, that means the ship would sink, regardless of whether He wanted to save it or not. But this would contradict His other attribute (omnipotence) that He can do whatever He wants, even change future events. And He can't just look into the future and sees Himself saving the ship, because there would be no reason to save it if it never sunk... How would he know that it would even sink if left alone? So either God can't see the future but can do anything he wants, or He can see into the future but can't change it. God is omniscient or omnipotent, but not both. Neat, huh? By the way, when you say that "Good and evil are opposites, God doesn't seperate them, they seperate themselves like oil and vinegar", do you mean to say that Good and Evil are independent of God, ie. that they are not defined by God but exist as absolutes of themselves? Or does God define them himself? So that something is Good because He says so, and not because it's intrinsically Good?
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:28 pm "I never said I didn't sin." a norwich cadet sins, but he does not steal, evade the truth, does not lie, cheat or conspire to deceive. what kind of sin does he do, mad mac?;-) "Although to be honest I would be hard-pressed to define "sin". Well sometimes I would be hard pressed. I said I don't lie, cheat, steal evade the truth or conspire to deceive. I did not rule out all sin." does a norwich cadet working for US conspire to deceive--lie to american enemies and does he evade the truth diplomatically when dealing with other countries? "First question: Do I belive that Satan or a man like Hitler should get equal treatment with the rest of people? Answer: The operative word here is should. To get more to your point Should a man who commits grievous sin be treated the same as one who does not? Not in the here and now, no." are you saying God does not punish people while on earth? ;-) "But in the after-life? I leave that to Allah. I can't tell you what should happen, it is echelons so far above me that I don't contemplate it. I do know we can not assess or compare the hereafter with life on Earth - I feel conficent of this." but are you saying if Allah does not put satan in heaven with the rightous, Allah is contradicting? ;-) "Second Question: Will the God I believe in make Satan go to heaven? Well, I don't believe in a day of judgement." then, what do you mean when you said "But in the after-life?" ? ;-). what do you believe is in the here-after that makes all people (including satan) equal? ;-) "BUT, I do believe that what goes around comes around." in the here-after? who made this law? is it a conflicting rule-----mercy vs justice? ;-) "That there is balance in life, that debts accrued must somehow be paid." that is right-------debts accrued must somewho be paid. who is the One doing the justice-----and making people pay their debts-------the Merciful, right? ;-) "Hitler (or Satan) has a debt so huge I don't know how it can be paid. I have considered the possibility though that Satan is the flip side of God." lol----satan is the flip side of God. ;-). i thought you said God conflict free? ;-) "That is, God represents all that is good and Satan all that is evil, and they are equally strong." lol----equally strong. ;-). are you saying satan (hitler) will have equal power with God in the here-after since his debt is so huge? ;-) "Without going into the details, I don't think you can have good without bad." i thought you said God is conflict free! ;-) "Good and evil are opposites, God doesn't seperate them, they seperate themselves like oil and vinegar." does your god have control the good and evil? ;-) "BUT, and this is a big but, we all have good and evil residing within us." is lying an evil thing and is it in you? ;-) "I do believe in the phrase "No one can rise higher than the highest which is in each of us, and no one can fall lower than the lowest." In other words, I don't believe that people SOULS are superior to the others." are you equal to the prophets of Allah? ;-) "I gues in my heart I believe that this is a sort of training ground, once the key lessons are learned you move on to somewhere else for further training. Like a journey. If you don't learn so well, you come back for remedial training." who is the trainer-----satan? ;-) "I know there's a God, but beyond that I believe all else is speculation." thus, there is no god, but Allah, right? ;-) "I have my theories, but I would never go so far as to say what I believe is right and what others believe is wrong." i can tell you that what you believe is wrong. ;-) "I might not accept what others beleive, but I'm smart enough to know I could be mistaken." unlike you, i have no doubt about my faith in the Oneness of Allah and the creation of hell and heaven and the day of judgement. ;-) "I do believe that when you talk to God he talks back" do you hear your god's voice? ;-) "you don't need a book, you can talk to him yourself." is the training you were talking about your god talking to you and you talking to him? did he tell you that there is no need of books, but him? ;-). how do you know that the evil in you that is talking to you? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:52 pm "Mad Mac, Here's another contradiction of two supposedly divine attributes I came across:" lol-----supposedly. ;-) "If God is OMNISCIENT it means God knows all things, including things happening in the future." God is , He can do anything He wants, and nothing is impossible for him." God is OMNIPOTENT and yes nothing is impossible OMNISCIENT and yes He know all things. ;-) "If God is OMNIPOTENTfor him that he wants to do. ;-) "Now, let's say God looks into the future and sees a ship carrying a thousand people sink into the ocean, killing all the passengers." lol-----looks into the future. ;-) "Now let's say God felt merciful, and wanted to save these poor souls: when the time comes (since He's omnipotent), He prevents the ship from sinking. Therefore the ship never sinks." right----God is MERCIFUL and since he wanted to save the people, the ship never sinks. ;-) "But this contradicts His early knowledge that the ship would sink." does not he control the future, ship and the events? ;-) "What He saw before was false, because He failed to see that He would save the people; so He can't be omniscient." lol-----He failed to see. ;-). pragmaticgal, is this your logic? ;-) "But if God always sees the truth" He see everything. ;-) "that means the ship would sink, regardless of whether He wanted to save it or not. But this would contradict His other attribute (omnipotence) that He can do whatever He wants, even change future events." this is very funny. pragmaticgal, couldn't He change events? if events change, isn't this what He wanted? ;-) "And He can't just look into the future and sees Himself saving the ship, because there would be no reason to save it if it never sunk... How would he know that it would even sink if left alone?" lol-----He can't. ;-). since it never sunk and since it never happened but was going to sink and since He knew this, He felt to do what he wanted to do since He is the OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and the MERCIFUL. ;-) "So either God can't see the future" lol----God can't see the future. ;-) "but can do anything he wants, or He can see into the future but can't change it." lol-----but can't change it. ;-) "God is omniscient or omnipotent, but not both." lol----but not both. ;-) "Neat, huh?" neat........are you kidding. ;-). can you do better than that? ;-) "By the way, when you say that "Good and evil are opposites, God doesn't seperate them, they seperate themselves like oil and vinegar", do you mean to say that Good and Evil are independent of God, ie." i like to know that too. ;-) "that they are not defined by God but exist as absolutes of themselves?" that is why i asked him "does your god have control the good and evil?" ;-) "Or does God define them himself? So that something is Good because He says so, and not because it's intrinsically Good?" do you mean like the brothers say to themselves "you are bad" when they mean "you are good"? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 02:31 pm Mankind has free will, the entire universe is Gods and under his control. Nothing happens that God is not aware of or ultimately is not in control of (set boundaries.) God does stop evil to happen but made a provision for it when it would rear its ugly head. There is coming a day when this will be taken care of right now we are in position of grace where God is commanding all men everywhere to repent. First, evil is a necessary part of free will. Man has free will-we can choose what we want. We sin because we want to sin it is our natural inclination. We follow our strongest nature at any given time, we are not morally inclined toward God. Evil is inherent in the risky gift of free will. God could have made us machines but to do so would have robbed us of our precious freedom of choice, and we would have ceased to be human. We all exercise free choice in the direction of our nature which is traced to the "fall" of man. This is the basic reason for evil and suffering in the world. It is man's responsibility, not God's. Why does God permit evil ? He could stop it, but in so doing would destroy us all. It is worth noting that the whole point of real religion lies not in interference with the human power to choose, but in God producing a willing consent for us to choose good over evil. He offers us choice and by doing so a chance to grow and understand the difference. Evil is contrary to God's perfect will, but not his permissible will. Good and evil are not opposites. Evil is a limitation of good. Evil is the absence of good. The lack of good is where evil will thrive. Evil is like rust to a car or rot to garment. We are to be salt and light to the world restraining the evil influence contrary to God. Atheists claim if God is unlimited then he must consist of being both Good and evil. But evil is itself a limitation of good, then God would have limitations, and imperfections this view is contrary to the nature of the God of scriptures. Evil is like rot to a tree, rust to a car it corrupts good its not the opposite of good. it is devoid of all good. Good is unlimited, you cannot do or have enough good. Evil is the limiting factor in good. By saying there is evil in the world, the atheist is admitting there is a standard to measure this by, otherwise how do they know what is evil. One cannot use the evil in the world to say there is no God. Atheism argues in a circle and does not offer any reasonable objections to God. Who are they to say something is evil or good. Everyone has their own opinion of what exactly it is and isn’t. So how does one decide if what they call evil someone else is calling good. This is why there must be an ultimate standard for all people. Otherwise what is evil today may be accepted as good another day. To be conscious of a standard means there must be a moral law giver. To know something is wrong we must know first that something is right. You must have someone who gives a standard in order to compare against it, and only an absolutely perfect being can draw the line of absolute good. If he has flaws, then his standard will reflect his flaws too. Their is only one solution to all this and God holds it. How can one actually say there is evil without some standard of good to measure it by. And where does that come from? God. If there is no God why punish evil. Why not have let Hitler continue since he was only practicing his truth - maybe by some he should have been rewarded. As repulsive as this sounds this is the only alternative to not having parameters made by a greater being. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? We have a moral conscience no matter what society we have grown up in and recognize good and evil. The atheist tries to sear that conscience so he won’t feel guilty. The obvious is there is right and any other choice is wrong and can lead to evil in its worst outcome. This is why we cannot sit by when evil intrudes on a people, for the nature of evil is destructive and contrary to everything that civilization holds that is good. The real question we need to ask is what is evil and what is good? For the answer there must be an ultimate source to go to or we are left tour individual opinions. Disasters happen to individuals as well as entire cultures because of our general and individual separation from God. How can we expect to avoid certain natural consequences if we have distanced ourselves from that Source? If our life, health, happiness come from God and we reject God's protection should we then blame him for the evil we ourselves do? Much of the suffering in the world can be directly linked to the evil choices we ourselves make as individuals and as nations. Many times God allows pain to have us identify what can be evil and make us turn from it to preserve our life. One cannot define evil by saying that it only causes harm to an individual, then what about operations like an amputation, would that be evil? To take away something in order for the body to survive is for the greater good. As would be killing those who want to take over countries to enslave others , the people need to fight back to protect themselves from the intruders. Whether its on a grand scale or a intrusion in a home, killing can be used to protect so it cannot be considered evil all the time. Yet there is some suffering allowed by God as judgment and punishment. This is a possibility which must come into the scheme because he does say he punishes the wicked that he is not mocked. God usually allows such suffering with a view to restoration and reformation of ones character, what is temporary is to prevent the eternal. Those suffering as a result of their actions usually know why. Just the same as Adam and eve knew immediately because they had guilt and hid. God is dealing with the problem of evil not in the immediate, but in a progressive fashion. The false assumption from the atheist is that the only choice God has, is to deal with evil all at once in one single act remove it. God, however, is dealing with the problem of evil throughout all human history. One day in the future, everything will be destroyed, and hold all men and women accountable for the things they did during their time on earth. Justice will ultimately prevail. God also has an enemy and so do we, Satan, but he is free to work his evilness until the day of final judgment. History and experience shows there is a power of evil in the world stronger than the evil presently in us. Evil of course does not only come from the Devil all the time but man is very capable to do much harm since we are unable to recognize what is right. If we reject good found in Gods standards the source of all morality and ethics then there is only the opposite to be done. Mankind is taken captive and suffers from its own denials and bad choices. One cannot fight evil by emotions or feelings. Because evil, sin feels good. Nor can one test truth by our feelings truth is either objective or it is not truth at all. If evil is only opinion, then it is subject to each persons interpretation, and may no longer be considered evil to another. God is the ultimate good and his goodness can be understood by the moral creatures he had chosen---prophets and books. We cannot always stop from doing wrong but we certainly know when we are doing it. The problem is wanting our own choice , blinding ourselves to our moral conduct and to our need for change so we can be healed. God can certainly force everyone against their will to be obedient and good just as parents could force their children to behave precisely the way they want in some respect. But he allows man to retain the power of choice. And if he were robbed of that power he would no longer be man but some lesser species moral cripples unable to discern and grow on our own. We would be no like puppets on a string, when he says do this, we do so. Would any atheist want that for a solution? I don’t think so. They would complain about that as much as the ways things are currently are today. They should look at themselves before they indiscriminately blame God for all the evil in this world! If blame is to be given to anyone, then the pain, sorrow and evil we experience in the world must be charged to man. Sin and suffering are not God's doing, but man's by rejecting what God has given for our own protection! God is not indifferent or unconcerned. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us. While we are in this spiritual bankrupt condition that affects us all he offers grace out of this condition to us as individuals. Motivated by love he had mercy on us reaching into our drowning conditions. But we reject his solution wanting to swim in our pools of human misery even if we drown there. When we realize the enormity of our offense then we can come to receive the solution, our salvation which comes through his guidance.
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 02:34 pm This Universe, indeed displays a remarkable vista of order and consistency. We can observe, for example, the great regularity with which the celestial bodies follow precise orbits, and marvel at the way in which water from the seas is brought to the land by wind-driven clouds, which are in turn formed by the evaporation of water: without this replenishment, life would be impossible. We are also amazed by the migration patterns of many species, including newborn eels, that trek through thousands of miles of ocean, to nestle in their own local streams, and of bees, who use sunlight for navigation in their quest for nectar. We may ponder as to why all living things exist in pairs, and contemplate on the optimality of the processes which comprise the whole universe. Even incredibly minute changes would disrupt the balances in nature: after all, had the earth's orbit been slightly offset in either direction, water and the resulting forms of life would not have emerged. In fact, we observe great unity in the laws of the cosmos; through the spectrum of life and non-life ranging from the microcosmic subatomic particles to the macrocosmic expanse of the universe itself, integration is manifested on every level. Reflection may lead us to pertinent questions: Could such encompassing order have arisen purely by unintentioned accident? Or could there be an intelligent originator to this spectacular array of living and non-living forms —a designer that may have developed them through processes which have yet to be fully determined? What conclusions are evidential? Is it probable that all the letters on this page unscrambled themselves by chance to form these meaningful and structured sentences? How then, could a human being - with ears, eyes and a mind - have been formed by chance? Is it credible that such a vast universe with an inestimable billions of galaxies could have evolved by accident? Does not the integration and complexity of a single cell far exceed that of a mere piece of paper with some intelligible writing on it, let alone this universe and all that it contains? (Especially since the universe also contains this piece of paper . . .!) We know that we are not the cause of ourselves, for embryonic development is organized and directed in stages under natural laws. But directed by what and by whose laws? Chance? Or Intelligence? What about a multiplicity of infinite beings? Could such have been responsible for this cosmological fabrication? Would not the resulting state of this universe have then been disordered and chaotic due to the conflicting commands of these infinitely powerful entities, who would have been trying to accede to the throne of authority in rivalry? Indeed, in such a regime, we would expect to see inconsistency in the universe as opposed to consistency. Instead of rain, we might conceivably have received a heavy downpour of elephants from the skies. (An umbrella would certainly not be terribly useful in such a universe!) Such a scenario would also give rise to the question: which of the infinite beings came first? And why? On the other hand, if such a multiplicity of infinite beings were in perfect agreement for all time, then there would not be any need for more than one - nor is there any evidence. If our response to the chance (unintentioned creation) and multiplicity (creation by two or more beings) hypotheses is negative, then our answer has to lie between zero and two. In other words, there can only be one unique governing intelligence - unique by the virtue of having no demigods, intermediaries, mystical incarnate beings, or any other human or nonhuman associates. This vast singular intelligence, then, must have created and developed all living and non-living things, as well as space-time itself, and must therefore be independent of it. If this is our conclusion, then it means that the myriad forms of matter and energy as well as the physiological structure of the human being must be subject to the natural laws of this singular and independent governing intelligence. In addition to this involuntary physiological dependence of human beings to the prescribed natural laws, we are also endowed with a mind which has the capacity to voluntarily question and reason. A reasoning person would be naturally drawn to the logical conclusion of the existence of a unique originator, and therefore of a meaningful purpose to this existence. Such a person would live with this awareness, in peace with himself or herself and the rest of nature. Indeed reasoning people live, and have been living throughout the ages in all parts of the world. They can be found dwelling in the midst of exuberant jungles or in our large, populous and crowded cities. What would distinguish such individuals would be the employment of reason as a foundation for life. If such a people are to be given a name which linguistically denotes 'voluntary peaceful submission' to this unique Intelligence, and which includes all of these attributes, a suitable term in one language would be the word Muslim.
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 02:35 pm How do you disbelieve in Allah, seeing that you were dead and He gave you life! Then He will cause you to die, then He will give you life, then unto Him you will return. [Al Qur'an (2:28)] How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit this act of kufr? How do you cover up this reality (the reality of Allah), seeing that you were dead - you were lifeless, not existing, not known or mentioned - and He gave you life? How do you disbelieve in Allah! How with unlimited number of question marks and exclamation marks. This statement demonstrates how strange and unnatural this act of kufr (disbelief) is, being aware that one did not exist before and thus ignoring the Cause of existence. How would you disbelieve in the One Who gave you life and will cause you to die? And not only that but will give you life again and then calls you for accountability. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you inflate yourselves with false pride, which is the main key of kufr [1], knowing that you were dead and will certainly go back to that state? Being aware of your beginning and of your end, and seeing that you have no control over both, you are indeed expected to be humble without having one iota of pride. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How come you are unthankful to the One Who endowed you with the bounty of life and what it contains! Who endowed you with the faculties of hearing, seeing and understanding. In fact, humans are completely enveloped by God's favors. Thankfulness is the befitting and expected act from you not kufr (ungratefulness). When we see an individual treating his or her mother badly, we become astonished and hate that kind of behavior. Surely our astonishment and hatefulness of such behavior increase when we realize the continuous effort of the mother and the care she provides her child with. The action of such individual is clearly a severe act of ungratefulness. And if this is the case, then what about the One Who created us and our mothers, the One Who provides for us and for our mothers? It becomes then clear that the act of ignoring the favors of Allah (glory be to Him) exceeds all limits of injustice and ungratefulness. Ignoring the favors of the Creator is surely a crime beyond description. In fact, if Allah is not thanked whom else will be thanked? If Allah is not obeyed whom else will be obeyed? And it Allah is not worshiped whom else will be worshiped? How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you disbelieve in the One Who is that great (all greatness) and, Who is that able (all ability)! How do you disbelieve in the One Who brought you to existence and Who is to recreate you after death! How do you disbelieve in the One Who owns you fully and nothing happens in the universe except as a result of His will? He is indeed the One to be conscious of and the One to be respected. How do you disbelieve in the One Whom you will return to for accountability and there is no escape from meeting Him? Allah is indeed our Owner. We are His property. A property that is completely dependent and is disparately in need of its Owner. And an Owner Who is in no need to His property and His property does not in any way increase His unlimited richness. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the resurrection and accountability, knowing that you were dead and Allah gave you life? It is extremely ignorant to doubt the ability of Allah (glory be to Him) - the One Who originated you to give you life again. And it is also foolish to ignore the seriousness and purposefulness that is ingrained in creation that strongly point out towards eventual accountability. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit shirk (worshiping others with Allah or giving the attributes of Allah to others), which is one of the severest forms of kufr, whereas Allah is the only One Who gave you life, the only One that will cause you to die then live again, and the only One that will bring you for full accountability. The Prophet (peace be upon him) defined shirk saying- "That you make somebody or something similar to Allah, while He created you." In the Qur'an Allah (glory be to Him) says: "Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn . Although He did create them, they falsely, having no knowledge, attributed to Him sons and daughters. Glorified be He and exalted above (all) that, they ascribe (unto Him)," 6:100. We notice here, in the Qur'anic verse and the Prophet's saying, the exclamation about the act of giving the attributes of Allah or describing Him in human terms (attributing to Allah human qualities), while Allah is the Only Creator. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the existence of the Creator, while you are created and surely you have not created yourselves? Also nothingness can not be the Cause of your existence. How do you deny the Cause of your existence? It is like a machine denying the existence of its maker and not obeying his or her commands. It the universe and what it contains is not enough for any sane individual, proving the existence of the Creator, then there are only two possibilities. First, the individual's mind is not functioning right, which means that the individual's faculty of understanding is shielded by various desires and self interest. The second possibility is that there is a problem of conception. If the individual views God, for example, as a trinity or as a white bearded being located at one of the far planets or stars, then how would one prove the existence of such being! In reality Atheism (denying the existence of God) grows and flourishes in environments or situations where wrong beliefs are being inherited or adopted. In a society where mysticism, for example, is prevalent and being practiced one would certainly find people reacting properly or improperly to such nonsense, going to various directions like Atheism, Agnosticism or rarely the correct belief and understanding. At times one hears some Muslims talking about the difficulty to prove the existence of God which is indeed unexpected and saddening. This kind of claim should only come from people following and promoting other belief systems that are not based on understanding and evidence. This is because if such people prove the existence of God logically, they would be unable to continue this process for unproven illogical other aspects, like for example, the trinity or the attributes claimed to be acquired by the so called saints. Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand. One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems). Some people also claim that the belief in God is something internal; that is based on one's internal feelings. Surely the human nature, the built-in nature (the Fitrah), is a factor in the individual confirmation of the existence of God, but it is certainly not the only evidence. Furthermore, the human's built-in nature can be covered up with all kinds of whims and desires and thus becomes unable to function property. Therefore, depending on the inner feelings as the sole factor of proving the existence of God is clearly erroneous. What can be said here is that the Fitrah, the uncorrupted built-in nature of the human, resonates happily with the Truth. It resonates greatly with the overwhelming evidence proving the existence of the Creator and describing His unimaginable great attributes. [1] Al Qur'an, 40:35, 40:56.
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 06:48 pm <Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand. One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems).> Easier to say than to do. I challenge anybody (including the person who pasted this article) to prove the existence of God! I have heard so many theists--Muslims and non-Muslims alike--who make this claim but never follow through. They'll say "The existence of God is a fact!" but when asked to provide actual, real evidence they'll either complain that it takes more than logic/science, material evidence, or they'll say, "You prove that God doesn't exist!" So go ahead, FG, ANON, common, JB, TLG, Mad Mac, any Muslim..... Prove that Allah exists. Use any factual evidence available to every human being, be logical, don't rely on testimonials, and assume that I have never heard of God/Gods. Also assume that I am a rational adult capable of following an argument. Try not to use circular reasoning ("Allah exists because the Qur'an says so, and the Qur'an says so because it's the Word of God" won't work unless you can prove that the Qur'an is the word of God without a doubt). So.....
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| | Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 08:18 pm "Easier to say than to do........So go ahead, FG, ANON, common, JB, TLG, Mad Mac, any Muslim..... Prove that Allah exists." if Allah wanted prove----------show or let us see-------the existence of Him, He would not have sent prophets and books; He would have shown Himself to us and the case would have been over------no free will would have been required from us--------in order to reject Him or to accept Him. we would all be like angels or prophets----- but Allah did make us like angles, prophets or machines; He gave us freedom of choice. ;-) "So....." so you believe what you want to believe and i believe what i want to believe. ;-) or are you saying you have a prove------that i don't have? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 05:10 am Pragmatic Girl Yes, I believe Good and Evil are independent of God but God REPRESENTS, or is the embodiement of Good and Satan is the Embodiement of evil. Asad Hope you can follow all of these answers: What kind of sin am I guilty of?? By your definition??? Let me see: Killing Fornication Adultery Endless haram acts (eating haram food, drinking alcohol, profanity, etc.) Those are all I can think of off the top of my head. Have I employed deception in my official capacity as an Army Officer? No, but I am trained to do it and would do it without hesistation in a combat environment. Deception is an operators job, however, not an intelligence job - at least in the US Army. I'm saying God doesn't punish people at all. I'm saying the we don't know what the after-life consists off, hence we can not speculate who ends up where. I do not hear God's voice as an audible, it's more like you might imagine ESP to be. But if you ask a question and you open your heart and you clear your mind, you know what the answer is. How do I know it's not evil talking to me? Cause I wasn't talking to evil, I was talking with God. I believe we can all talk to God and furthermore I do not believe God would allow someone or something other than himself to asnwer a qeustion posed to him. Asad One question for you - in defense of Pragmaticgirls arguments. Can God do anything??? If so, can he find a stone he can't lift? Pragmatic girl As for proving the existence of God, well I go back to Steven Hawkings, a man I highly respect. According to Hawkings it is scientifically impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, the start of the universe had to come from something. There is no scietific explanation other than the supranatural. This is the reason that Hawkings believes in God. As for me personally, I witnessed a miracle, an act that pretty much defied scientific explanation. Furthermore I believe we can hear God if we listen. And I believe God responds to us if we just try. That's all the proof I need. Asad Your last hypothesis is hopelessly flawed, but whatever, I know you can't see it because you're blinded by your faith. You can not see the forest for the trees.
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 07:06 am "Yes, I believe Good and Evil are independent of God but God REPRESENTS" so you are saying every good thing ever happened was independent and God had nothing to do with it? in other word, good self-governs itself therefore it is something that produces itself? does your god make good things to happen? didn't you say God represents all that is good and if this is true, how come He has no control of good and make good things happen? ;-) Asad Hope you can follow all of these answers: What kind of sin am I guilty of?? By your definition???" lol-----by your definition. ;-) "Let me see: Killing, Fornication Adultery, Endless haram acts (eating haram food, drinking alcohol, profanity, etc.). Those are all I can think of off the top of my head." how about if you tell me your definition of sin-----the sins you say you commit? ;-). i forgot---it would be hard-pressed for you to define the "sin" you commit, right? ;-) "Have I employed deception in my official capacity as an Army Officer? No, but I am trained to do it and would do it without hesistation in a combat environment. Deception is an operators job, however, not an intelligence job - at least in the US Army." so a norwich cadet sins, but he does not steal, evade the truth, does not lie, cheat or conspire to deceive, but he is trained to do it, right? ;-) "I'm saying God doesn't punish people at all." so you believe that your may god let hitler and pharaoh (both enslaved jewish people) enter heaven and be with their victims, right? ;-) mad mac, does your god punish satan? ;-). isn't satan the creation of God? or are you saying you believe as you said before your god and satan are equally strong? ;-) "I'm saying the we don't know what the after-life consists off, hence we can not speculate who ends up where." where? didn't you say there is only heaven in the here-after and that hell does not exist? ;-) "I do not hear God's voice as an audible, it's more like you might imagine ESP to be." lol-----ESP to be. ;-) didn't you tell me your god told you to go to somalia? ;-) "But if you ask a question and you open your heart and you clear your mind, you know what the answer is." like a question and answer session, right? is part of worship too-----like a prayer? ;-) "How do I know it's not evil talking to me? Cause I wasn't talking to evil, I was talking with God. I believe we can all talk to God and furthermore I do not believe God would allow someone or something other than himself to asnwer a qeustion posed to him." so you don't know the difference if you are talking with your god or satan, but you just believe your god would not allow satan to talk to you, right? ;-) but does the evil residing within you tell you it is not him? can you talk to evil too? is lying an evil thing and is it in you, mad mac? ;-). didn't you say "we all have good and evil residing within us."? ;-) "Asad One question for you - in defense of Pragmaticgirls arguments. Can God do anything??? If so, can he find a stone he can't lift?" first who created the stone? is not your god powerful and doesn't he see everything? ;-) "Asad Your last hypothesis is hopelessly flawed, but whatever, I know you can't see it because you're blinded by your faith. You can not see the forest for the trees." i think you are talking about yourself. ;-). are you saying your faith is based on sight and you see your god when you say he is talking to you or is it just what you believe------your blind faith? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 08:44 am Asad You are trying to use pendantic arguments to rationalize what boils down to faith. But I will answer your questions, understanding that based on my theory the answers are not neccessarily here to find. I am not saying that all Good is independent of God. I am saying that not all good IS dependent on God. Just like all evil is not neccessarily dependent on Satan. I don't think God controls all things. I think he kinds of sets things in motion. Sins by my definition. There's one of omission, a relatively small one, but bothers me none the less. When I was in high school I did not help this kid I knew who two other guys were picking on. They didn't hurt him, but it's always bothered me. I knew what the right thing to do was and I didn't do it. I was involved in a small unit action in Somalia the results of which, while not deliberate, have always bothered me. Those are the only two things that have kept me up at night. Well, as for Norwish cadets, other sins are not listed in the honor code. So it is up to each Cadet to demarcate his lines. I told you I don't really subscribe to the notion of heaven or hell. But what I also told you is I don't know how or if God adjudicated their fates. To take it a step further, I think it's not so important for me to know. I only need to be concerned with me, John McPherson, doing what I think is the right thing. I'll let Hitler and Pharoah worry about Hitler and Pharoah. As for the existence of Heaven or Hell, I told you I don't know what the hereafter consists of. I am sympathetic with the Mormon point of view on this, but that does not mean I neccessarily subscribe to it. Yes, God told me to go back to Somalia. But not in audible terms. Don't ask for a scientific explanation for this and don't expect me to doubt my relationship with God, because it ain't going to happen. I believe Allah before I would allow you to plant doubt about him. Yes we all have Evil residing within us. But I HAVE FAITH that each of us can talk to God and if you try, he will talk with you. I understand that you lack such faith and place all of your trust in the written word. I do not. You never did answer the question. Can he find it or not? This is a yes or no question. My faith is based on observation and interaction. Your faith is based on birth and your own confidence that the Qur'an is divine. Even if you assume that your faith is more logical than mine (and I don't, but that's OK, let's make the assumption for the sake of argument), even if I conceded it was more logical, it wouldn't shake my faith. In my mind nothing beats experience.
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 09:54 am "Asad You are trying to use pendantic arguments to rationalize what boils down to faith. But I will answer your questions, understanding that based on my theory the answers are not neccessarily here to find." someone said once: "if you can't have faith in what is held up to you for faith, you must find things to believe in yourself, for a life without faith in something is too narrow a space to live". are you saying you don't rationalize your faith, mad mac? ;-) "I am not saying that all Good is independent of God. I am saying that not all good IS dependent on God. Just like all evil is not neccessarily dependent on Satan." and i'm saying you are wrong. i'm saying all good or whatever good reaches to people is from Allah as an act of pure divine grace-----unpreceded by any act of special merit on the part of people and all evil or whatsoever evil comes from people and it is a manifestation od divine justice----in part rquital of some sin on the people. ;-) "I don't think God controls all things. I think he kinds of sets things in motion." are you saying your god can not contral satan? who created satan? ;-) "Sins by my definition. There's one of omission, a relatively small one, but bothers me none the less." omission or mistake (if you will) is no sin. although omission bothers me also, i dont' think it is counted sin in my definition. ;-) "When I was in high school I did not help this kid I knew who two other guys were picking on. They didn't hurt him, but it's always bothered me. I knew what the right thing to do was and I didn't do it. I was involved in a small unit action in Somalia the results of which, while not deliberate, have always bothered me. Those are the only two things that have kept me up at night." you were involved in a small unit action-----it was not deliberate-----therefore you were forced to go to somalia and you did something that botheres you. it is not your fault, right? so you are saying these are the only sins you did? ;-). aren't you special person? ;-) "Well, as for Norwish cadets, other sins are not listed in the honor code. So it is up to each Cadet to demarcate his lines." i'm not talking about the norwish cadets honor code, is your god set other moral code for you? ;-) "I told you I don't really subscribe to the notion of heaven or hell." i thought you said one time that there is only heaven in the here-after-----when people die? it seems now you are saying your god didn't create hell and heaven! ;-) "But what I also told you is I don't know how or if God adjudicated their fates." i didn't know God had already adjudicated. in other word, i didn't know that the day of judgement already took place. ;-). btw, are you saying your god adjudicate people or delivers judgment? didn't you say there is no judgment? ;-) "To take it a step further, I think it's not so important for me to know." did your god tell you this-----that it is not important for you to know the adjudication? ;-) "I only need to be concerned with me, John McPherson, doing what I think is the right thing. I'll let Hitler and Pharoah worry about Hitler and Pharoah." but you believe they and you will or have faced adjudication (judgment), right? does this adjudication have conflict with justice? ;-) "As for the existence of Heaven or Hell, I told you I don't know what the hereafter consists of." what is the *here-after*, mad mac? ;-) "I am sympathetic with the Mormon point of view on this, but that does not mean I neccessarily subscribe to it." what do you subcribe to-----tell me about the here-after and the adjudication by god. ;-) "Yes, God told me to go back to Somalia. But not in audible terms." did your god tell you what to do over there? ;-) "Don't ask for a scientific explanation for this and don't expect me to doubt my relationship with God, because it ain't going to happen." is it real or blind faith? ;-) "I believe Allah before I would allow you to plant doubt about him." lol "Yes we all have Evil residing within us." but you don't do evil things, right? you are special----you are a norwish cadet, right? ;-) "But I HAVE FAITH that each of us can talk to God and if you try, he will talk with you." is this talking to your god a kind of prayer----like a worship? ;-) "I understand that you lack such faith and place all of your trust in the written word. I do not." unlike you, i don't hear voices----that is for sure. ;-). if i don't hear voice, does that mean i don't have faith in God? ;-) "You never did answer the question. Can he find it or not? This is a yes or no question." why don't you ask your god that question------don't you believe he will answer? ;-) "My faith is based on observation and interaction." interaction like a question and answer session, not like prayer or worship, right? ;-) "Your faith is based on birth and your own confidence that the Qur'an is divine." i wish i hear voices. ;-) "Even if you assume that your faith is more logical than mine (and I don't, but that's OK, let's make the assumption for the sake of argument), even if I conceded it was more logical, it wouldn't shake my faith." and i didn't observe things in my eyes. are you saying your faith is not blind faith, mad mac? ;-) "In my mind nothing beats experience." do you mean nothing beats hearing voices and observing things? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 12:48 pm ANON: <if Allah wanted prove----------show or let us see-------the existence of Him, He would not have sent prophets and books; He would have shown Himself to us and the case would have been over------no free will would have been required from us--------in order to reject Him or to accept Him. we would all be like angels or prophets----- but Allah did make us like angles, prophets or machines; He gave us freedom of choice. ;-)> Are you saying that prophets do not have freewill? Then how can they serve as examples for us? Besides which, what is "free will" referring to here? Freewill to obey God, or freewill to believe in the existence of God? If you mean freewill to obey God, then that poses no problem: God could show Himself to us, and we would still have the choice of obeying Him. Satan knows that God exists (he heard God's command to bow down to Adam, etc.), but he still disobeys Him. Adam and Eve knew that God existed, but they still disobeyed Him. So, simply knowing that God exists would not make us "angels, prophets, or machines". We would still have free will, because we could decide to obey God or disobey him, as Adam and Eve did. But if free-will means freedom to believe or disbelieve in the existence of God, then that makes no sense: How can God punish people for not believing in him, if he doesn't even show himself to everyone equally? The prophets are going to heaven, not because they are better people, but because God gave them an "edge" by revealing himself to them. They are no better than us, they just have conclusive proof we don't have. In which case, you're saying the existence of God cannot be proven using science or logic. What you are doing is called "special pleading", trying to save a logically indefensible position by falling back on Prophets and holy Books that are only divine to you and other Muslims. I knew that was going to happen (and not because I can see into the future!) BTW, why is it that God cannot show himself clearly for all to see? Why must he rely on other men to get his message across? Consider this: If you were a teacher, and a critical exam was coming up, would you rely on one of the students in your class to educate the rest of them? In fact, say the rest of the students never even saw you, never saw you talk to the "messenger", don't even know if this student ever saw you, and can't tell from the material if it's really from you! They don't even know if you really do exist, or are merely made up by the student. To complicate matters, there are many other students, each claiming to have received a special communication from you. They all contradict each other, they can't even describe what you look like or what kind of person you are, and they all say their material is the real thing and everybody else's is false! And to make matters worse, you also assigned another person to deliberately mislead the students by giving them false information! And then you give them a final exam in which they would be eternally punished if they don't get the right answers?!? Can you imagine a real teacher getting away with that kind of abuse of power? And yet that's what God is doing according to Muslims, Christians and Jews. Please explain to me how this is Merciful, Reasonable, or Just, as Allah is supposed to be? And to re-phrase (and emphasize) Mad Mac's question, "Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift?" If you say yes, then you're saying God is not omnipotent. If you say no, then you're limiting His infinite power of creation. I read a hilarious satire of this theological conundrum at, http://www.catalaw.com/detox/reverse/4.shtml
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:27 pm Anonymous, <Good and evil are not opposites. Evil is a limitation of good. Evil is the absence of good. The lack of good is where evil will thrive.> Bullshit. Evil is not the absence of Good: If I see you drowning and hit you over the head to speed you on your way, that's evil. If I simply watch and do nothing, then that's simply the absence of Good. It's not evil because I am not morally required to endanger my life to save yours. If I jump into the water and try to save you, that's Good (it may also be foolish, depending on whether or not I can swim). The distinction between Evil, Absence of Good, and Good can be made by any person with even rudimentary intuitive morality. What's more, according to the majority of Muslims, Evil is what displeases God, and Good is what pleases Him. That means a Good act can be Evil under some circumstances because it displeases God and vice versus: Saving you from drowning might be Evil because God doesn't like you. Saving you might be Good because God likes you. Things that people usually consider Evil (Murder, Rape, Slavery, Torture, Theft) can become Good if is said that God commands them (Jihad, War booty, Prisoners of War as Slaves, non-Muslims as Slaves, Female Prisoners of War as Concubines etc.). What's more, God often changes His mind, and gives unnecessary exceptions to His own concept of morality: Incest is evil, but okay for the progeny of Adam and Eve. Religion does not really provide absolute standards for Good and Evil, the best it comes to is Sin. And a Sin is not necessarily Evil all the time. (eg., Lying is a sin, but it's not evil if you do it to tell a mass murderer you don't know where his prey are hidding; Drinking alcohol is a Sin, but it's not Evil). Real Evil doesn't change meaning because you ask different people at different times: Hitting you over the head while you drown will always be considered Evil, and risking my life to save yours will always be considred Good. The best that religion does is approximate Good Conduct. It tells people what's okay to do to fellow believers, and what's not. It doesn't give people universal guidelines on how treat others, regardless of their faith or nationality. So up yours to all those idiots who think religion is all that prevents people from committing Evil. Religion lets people commit Evil--and call it something else.
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:59 pm MAD MAC, <As for proving the existence of God, well I go back to Steven Hawkings, a man I highly respect. According to Hawkings it is scientifically impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, the start of the universe had to come from something. There is no scietific explanation other than the supranatural. This is the reason that Hawkings believes in God.> I think a supernatural explanation is never scientific, simply because it's outside the arena of science--nature. I also respect Stephen Hawking but I don't know if I misunderstood "A Brief History of Time", but I got the impression Hawking wasn't really saying that he believes in God because there's no scientific explanation for the Big Bang: At one spot, he actually says the opposite: "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose that it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" Note that it's a far cry from, "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose that it had a creator" to "It's scientifically impossible for the universe to have had a beginning and not have a creator". Hawking is saying, you may continue to believe in God, while you are saying you have to. In either case, Stephen Hawking is a great physicist, but he is not the last word on physics, and his opinion shouldn't be treated as another divine commandment. There are a lot of scientifically respectable theories that "suppose" that the universe is infinite, or that it had no beginning, or that it's beginning is scientifically possible. His interpretation is not an inevitable one, and so I think I will hold judgement on whether he's right or wrong. <As for me personally, I witnessed a miracle, an act that pretty much defied scientific explanation. Furthermore I believe we can hear God if we listen. And I believe God responds to us if we just try. That's all the proof I need.> That's perfectly fine, and I respect it. Although I personally don't believe in miracles, I won't call you a liar or assume you are misguided.But you realize why your personal testimony can't be used as proof of God, don't you? It's enough for you, but it's not enough for other people who did not witness the miracle (by the way, do you feel your free-will draining away, as ANON predicts?) A real proof of God's existence shouldn't be limited to miracles seen by a few, because then only those few people have absolute proof, while the rest don't.
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:02 pm ------<if Allah wanted prove----------show or let us see-------the existence of Him, He would not have sent prophets and books; He would have shown Himself to us and the case would have been over------no free will would have been required from us--------in order to reject Him or to accept Him. we would all be like angels or prophets----- but Allah did make us like angles, prophets or machines; He gave us freedom of choice. ;-)------- "Are you saying that prophets do not have freewill? Then how can they serve as examples for us?"" the prophets are protected and were chosen to only obey; they would not disobey orders of Allah. prophets are special human being and are given the tools-----some talked with God and others are given first hand knowledge of Allah. ordinarry human being like you and i can not be like them and that is not what we are expected to be; we are expected to accept of their message. their only job was to deliver message and be teachers. ;-) "If you mean freewill to obey God, then that poses no problem: God could show Himself to us, and we would still have the choice of obeying Him. Satan knows that God exists (he heard God's command to bow down to Adam, etc.), but he still disobeys Him. Adam and Eve knew that God existed, but they still disobeyed Him."" it is not the seeing or not seeing that makes a person disobedience. it is the free will. angels don't have free will and they could not disobey. ;-) although i see my parents, i can disobey them, but i can not deny their existance. satan, adam and xawa never denied the existance of God. "So, simply knowing that God exists would not make us "angels, prophets, or machines"." well angels and prophets can not refuse God's orders and they have never. they are different from us. satan and ordinarry people (not prophets) are not like angels. angels are like programmed-machine and prophets have protection from going astray. ;-) "We would still have free will, because we could decide to obey God or disobey him, as Adam and Eve did." yes, but can you deny God's existance if or when He shows Himself to you? ;-). you can't, right? ;-) "But if free-will means freedom to believe or disbelieve in the existence of God, then that makes no sense" free will has nothing to do with the prove of God's existance; the free will has to do with faith. satan has and had faith in God existance because he has seen Him, but still he had the freedom to choose what is right and what is wrong, but the freedom to choose if God exists or not. ;-). read again, "if Allah wanted prove----------show or let us see-------the existence of Him, He would not have sent prophets and books; He would have shown Himself to us and the case would have been over------no free will would have been required from us--------in order to reject Him or to accept Him" can you reject what you see? ;-) "How can God punish people for not believing in him, if he doesn't even show himself to everyone equally?" why some people believe in Him (His existaince) eventhough they have not seen Him and others deny Him in his existance? all of us are built-in the nature to believe in Him (the Fitrah)----confirmation of the existence of Him. some the cover up this built-in nature and others accept and testify it. you can't blame Allah for your covering up the truth. ;-). it would have been unfair if i Allah has shown Himself to me, but did allow that chance for you. ;-). "The prophets are going to heaven, not because they are better people, but because God gave them an "edge" by revealing himself to them." what about the believers who are said to be going to heaven, but have not seen Allah? ;-) "They are no better than us, they just have conclusive proof we don't have." but they are not like us; they can not disobey or deny His existance and His law; you and i can. am i better than you? ;-) "In which case, you're saying the existence of God cannot be proven using science or logic." and it can't be disproven using science or logic. ;-) "What you are doing is called "special pleading"" lol----"special pleading". ;-) what speecial pleading? ;-) "trying to save a logically indefensible position by falling back on Prophets and holy Books that are only divine to you and other Muslims." we i asked you-------believe what you want to believe and i believe what i want to believe---or are you saying you have a prove------that i don't have-----that God does not exist? let's see your *defensible position* on this, would you? ;-) "I knew that was going to happen (and not because I can see into the future!)" lol "BTW, why is it that God cannot show himself clearly for all to see? Why must he rely on other men to get his message across?" lol----can't show himself----rely on other men. ;-). first, God can do anything, but He chooses His way and He does not rely on any body. He give you the freedom to accept or deny. don't blame Him if you deny Him? ;-) "Consider this: If you were a teacher, and a critical exam was coming up, would you rely on one of the students in your class to educate the rest of them? In fact, say the rest of the students never even saw you, never saw you talk to the "messenger", don't even know if this student ever saw you, and can't tell from the material if it's really from you! They don't even know if you really do exist, or are merely made up by the student. To complicate matters" lol------to complicate the matters. ;-) "there are many other students, each claiming to have received a special communication from you. They all contradict each other" lol-----islam contradicts? ;-) "they can't even describe what you look like or what kind of person you are, and they all say their material is the real thing and everybody else's is false! And to make matters worse, you also assigned another person to deliberately mislead the students by giving them false information!" is this religion? ;-) "And then you give them a final exam in which they would be eternally punished if they don't get the right answers?!? Can you imagine a real teacher getting away with that kind of abuse of power?" that was funny. do you require that you see the final questions in the test in order to pass the test? have you ever blamed the teacher for not showing you the test before you take the examination?. have you ever tell him when you fail that it was unfair and he punished you for not showing you the content of the test before you took it? ;-) "And yet that's what God is doing according to Muslims, Christians and Jews." again, it is a cheap excuse that you are making, but God will say to you, are you different than rest of the people-----that you require Him to see when others didn't demand. ;-) "Please explain to me how this is Merciful, Reasonable, or Just, as Allah is supposed to be?" lol-----suppose to be. ;-) are you saying He didn't show Himself to us-----therefore, He is not a Merciful, Reasonable and Just God? "And to re-phrase (and emphasize) Mad Mac's question, "Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift? If you say yes, then you're saying God is not omnipotent. If you say no, then you're limiting His infinite power of creation." tell mad mad that nothing is too heavy for Allah-------isn't He the most Powerful? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:13 pm The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I always do my best to be a good human being , Sir." " You would help a sick and maimed person if you could ...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" [No answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them?" [No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerised. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" [No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" [Pause]. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" [No answer] "Do you believe in God, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. You have never seen God, Have you? " "No, sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard you God?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" [No answer] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please." The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?" Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester... "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understand them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The submitter student pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The student continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? Islam which means Submission to the will of God , tells us it is to see if each one of us will, choose good over evil." The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the student replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical debate." "So you don't accept God's moral code to do ... what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The student remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent. The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen, molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Muslim student shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:19 pm THIS IS HILARIOUS. PLEASE READ IT: For atheists--------this is how it all began and this is the Account of their revelation and Testament: Jonneth Smith, a top quark seeker and theist-skeptic got very disenchanted with all the different claims and non-claims of atheism and began to wonder, "which one is true?" One day as he was monitoring proton/positron particles at the Tevatron accelerator, he noticed something very unusual in the high-yield energy output in the aftermath of the annihilation. He noticed a pattern of odd looking quark signatures amongst the random chaos that seemed to spell out the word "none." Immediately he understood the message he received from the void, and was shocked to say the least. He decided to take some time off work to think things over and figure out his beliefs. While sleeping one night in his home town of Palmyra, New York, Smith woke up to suddenly see what he initially thought was a miracle. A brilliant pink and purple effervescent ribbon of light luminating near his bedside hovered and flowed like graceful waves of satin. Its light was brilliant and beautiful. "Who or what are you?" Smith asked, somewhat afraid. "I am the great IPF. The Invisible Pink Fluctuation. In other word, the bacteria, the microorganisms, microbes, germs. It was I who effected the universe. All that is around you, all that you are is because of me." Smiths eyes grew wide and his heart pounded. With a chill in his voice, he quietly spoke. "Are you God?" "No!," the light thundered. "That is irrational and illogical. Never speak such lunacy! I am not supernatural. I am a product of physics. A great quantum fluctuation." "b..b...but how could you create the universe if you're not God?" "First of all, I did not create the universe. I merely effected it. Before the universe existed, there was absolute nothingness. Then, somehow, I was able to fluctuate." "Fluctuate? What do you mean?" Smith asked. "Think of it like a...a...a great cosmic fart. Kind of like passing some serious gas. I just fluctuated and BANG! (a very BIG BANG at that!)" The brilliant ribbon of light continued to hover and flow with a stunning, wavy hypnotic motion, yet its movement seemed to have a slight randomness to it, adding to its overall emotion of mystery. "So, if your not supernatural, how come you are appearing to me now?" Jonneth asked. "Easy. This is merely another one of my 'fluctuations'. Totally backed by science. Everything you are seeing now is explainable using the laws of physics." "But, you have intelligence!" smith argued. "So do you." This was amazing. Smith knew that this knowledge must be recorded, so he frantically began scribbling in his journal. The once steady flows of the fluctuation began to grow a bit more unstable; the beautiful solid pink and purple light becoming slightly broken with random static. "Theres not much time" the IPF said. "I am breaking up again. I'm on borrowed energy you know...and the void demands that I pay it back, which is why I don't have much longer" "Ok," said smith, "Why have you appeared to me?" "Pure chance, my child. Consider yourself fortunate" "So what does all this mean?" asked Smith. "What does it mean? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?! It means all things are possible. I see you are writing in your journal. You want to document this experience? Here!" Suddenly, there was a rumble, and a loud whooshing sound like a strong wind blowing through an eternal tunnel. Before Jonneth's very eyes, a Higgs field began to tunnel into a quantum fluctuation through a false vacuum state expanding through the negative pressure of broken symmetry. It was beautiful. Then, in an explosion of light and energy, 2 golden plates appeared before Jonneth Smith written in a strange hieroglyphic. "These are the plates that will tell you about me," the fluctuation said. "I can do all things. You must spread the word. Tell your friends...tell everyone about me. Become a freethinker and leave behind the chains of irrational religion. Lay hold of science...reason." Jonneth was stunned at the seemingly spontaneous existence of two massive golden plates in his bedroom. "Where did those come from?" "I effected them from the void." "What?!" asked Smith looking confused. "Can you not yet see? Open your eyes my child. I am the IPF. I can do anything." "You got to be kidding....I need empirical evidence. If you are indeed who you say you are, then lets see a Roland JV 1080 synthesizer." Poof! A JV 1080 appeared at Smiths bedside. "But...but how can you DO this? How do just make this stuff ex-Nihilo?" "My friend, have you no faith? Do you really think making something as simple as that tiny synthesizer is any less probable than making a whole universe? Remember, it is I, the great IPF who is responsible for the entire universe...all the trillions of stars, the galaxies...I did it all. Making a synth or a car or some extra cash is nothing. I just borrow a tiny amount of energy from the void and POOF! Its done! And there is nothing supernatural about any of it. Its simple physics, my friend." "Wow," Smith said, "its true. Its really true!" "Yes, my child. It is true." The ribbon of light began to flicker and fill with static. It was dissipating. "I have to go now" the IPF said. "But I want you to remember one thing. I want you to preach it to the world." "What do I tell them?" Smith asked? "Tell them, 'If I can make a universe, then I can make you a new life.' Now go, go friend and speak to all the good news." As suddenly as it came, it vanished. Smith thought perhaps he was dreaming, but then he looked at the plates and at the JV 1080. He knew it was real, and he was changed because of it. TESTIMONIALS-----People who have been changed tell their stories: Nov 11, 1999: Frank Hender writes: Praise be to the Great Pink Fluctuation. I've been sitting in my cell for the last three months praying that the IPF would create for me 16 million dollars out of nothing, just like you say he can do. Well, he finally came through. I got 16 million dollars in a combination insurance settlement and lawsuit. I think, though, that the blindness that was caused by the accident was him taking back some of his energy... Maybe if I pray hard enough, the Great IPF will get me free. Keep at it Frank. The IPF hears you and will be there for you. Sometimes we dont get what we want right away. That is because the IPF is based upon random chance- all backed by the laws of physics. It does not mean that the IPF doesn't care about you. It just means that sometimes it takes a 'few extra rolls' of those quantum dice before our number finally turns up. Hang in there, and your faith will reward you. ~Panspermia Nov 10, 1999: J.P. writes: Yes, it's true, the IPF is God (well not really, because it is illogical to believe in God). Anyway, this undulating satin wave of pinkness revealed herself to me! Yes, the elusive deity is a female! She gave me explicit instructions to do certain things before the second coming--that's right, the void shall require the universe, come quickly IPF! Her voice was squeaky, almost annoying. Nevertheless, she spoke with authority. Now, what did she say? Her words still ring in my ears--"Go ye unto the secular web! Think freely, be ye a freethinker! Thank you, J.P. Sometimes the IPF manifests itself as a female in order to better communicate with our inner-femininity. In all of us there are many voices. Some men, some women, some animal, maybe even some are shed particles that escape beyond the Schwarzschilds radius from a black hole due to Hawking radiation. In any case, since the IPF created us ex-nihilo, it knows the best way to speak to us. Thank you, J.P. for your words of comfort. ~Panspermia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oct 14, 1999: "Fearful" writes My name is... well Im not quite that bold yet. I'm a new believer in the IPF and while it has changed my worthless life I'm still not very bold. About ten years ago I was flying through the solar system on my cosmic dish that was given to me by some very nice little green men. As I blasted my way through space it occurred to me that the universe needed a reason, so for the last ten years I've been looking for that reason. Two weeks ago I went sheephead fishing in Chicago, but I had forgotten my bait at home. In a frantic attempt to find anything that would pass for bait, I unearthed a extremely small pink worm! Suddenly the worm began to expand into a giant mass that filled the sky. I didn't know what to think. If not for the wonderful candy-like quality the worm offered I think I would have crapped my pants. I was virtually blinded by the pink light, it was grand! Awesome!! Wonderful!!! Then I heard it...it spoke. In sort of a small still high pitch voice. Thank you, Sincerely Fearful. My friend, its always hard the first time when a new believer "comes out." Baby steps, my young one. Baby steps. ~Panspermia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oct 8, 1999: Lola writes I came to have a personal relationship with the great IPF during the winter of 1977. I remember calling up an atheism hotline to look for some support during a time of need. After all, it's nice to be reassured that after a few years, I would slip into non-existence and all of humanity would one day perish (unless, of course, the benevolent aliens come and rescue us). Anyway, the person on the phone told me that the IPF loved me and had a wonderful plan for my life. I asked the IPF to cleanse me from my previous belief in the "xian" god and come into my life and fire my cranial neurons with a new passion. Glory to the IPF. It's scientific and rational. Come and be freed from the shackles of "xianity." For the IPF so loved the cosmos, that he fluctuated the universe into being out of nothing, that whosoever would disbelieve the Bible and worship REASON shall not have everlasting life but shall be snuffed out of existence. Amen. Wow! Lola my child, you have been priveledged with pink abundance. Let your new found passion in the IPF free your restless mind, and tell others of its fluctuating wonders. What a great story! ~Panspermia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oct 7, 1999: Jesse Kushin writes: All praise be to the IPF. I came to recognize my non-existence about two years ago. The realization that the universe was actually "nothing divided" was extremely liberating. After all, I must carry on the ministry of partying, fornicating, and mocking "xians" to fulfill the IPF's great commission. Now unto Him who is able to "effect" the universe out of the void and sustain our existence, be honor and power, and might and dominion, both now in the "freethinking" age and in the "evolved" age ahead, amen. We are receiving praise reports like this from all over the country. Thanks, Jesse for spreading the word and lighting the fire in our bosoms. ~Panspermia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sep 23, 1999- Frank Hender writes: My business was going under after my ex-partner turned me in for embezzlement. Well, I thought that I had nothing to lose, so I prayed to the IPF that he'd disappear (what the heck - if he can make things appear out of nothing, he should be able to make things disappear back into nothing). Then I prayed that the energy that was reclaimed would come back to me as an extra 16 million dollars. When I woke up the next morning, one of my boys was standing outside the bars and told me that my ex-partner was now disappeared. Hallelujah! I'm still waiting for the 16 million. Thanks, Frank. How wonderful it is to hear such praise reports. Hang in there for that 16 Mil. The IPF sometimes works in chaotic ways (remember that it is governed by chance). Yours, ~Panspermia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sep 22, 1999- -Billy Ray writes: My dog Luther had no teeth. He would just catch a squirrel and gum it. So I just prayed to the great and wonderfull IPF for Luther's teeth. Well, Luther got hit by a car the next day but I still have faith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aug 8, 1999 -"Bob" writes: I am writing to let you know that I finally decided to ask the IPF for help in my love life. I logically concluded that if the IPF could effect the universe ex-nihlo (or cause the universe, I really dont care which semantical term you use) then surely it could cause the necessary chemical and electrical stimulii needed for Lisa to like me. Well, it was just three days later after I petitioned the IPF to roll me some quantum dice that my number turned up! The needed brain stimulii was caused ex-nihlo in Lisa's body and now she's crazy about me. I just hope that when the void demands the borrowed energy back, that Lisa wont diss on me. Anyway, praise be to the Great IPF! Make its name great! ATHEISTS PROCLAIM THEIR FAITH IN IPF! There are many prominent thinkers and scientists today who have chosen to leave behind their chains, and hit to the streets, proclaiming the good news to the people. We have here their disciples (Galool and PragmaticGal) preaching the word and their hyms of praise in the IPF--Bacteria. You will find many proclamations of faith by atheists who have found their new hope and the answers to the universe in the greatness of the Giant Fluctuation. We have included with each quotation, our own personal comment, which is our opinion and evaluation regarding the individuals in light of their claims. We have added commentary to the quotes to highlight how we feel the authors excercise great faith in their own "unbelief." Even so, we feel the quotes speak quite well on their own. Quentin Smith Ph.D., Philosopher "So a scientific theory that is confirmed by observational evidence tells us that the universe began without being caused. So if you want to be a rational person and accept the results of rational inquiry into nature, then we must accept the fact that God did not cause the universe to exist. The universe exists because of this wave-function law....the universe would come into existence because of its natural, mathematical properties, not because of any supernatural forces...So I think that is the strongest scientific argument there is against theism. I think it's even stronger than Darwin's theory of evolution." (Quenten Smith, Two Ways to Prove Atheism, Atheist Alliance Convention, 1996) Of course this is stronger than Darwin. You see, Darwin's theory of evolution is just a theory. The IPF is a fact! There is no debate. We have proven empirically that from nothing came the universe. All thanks to the ambiguous, everpresent, preeminent, ominous "wave function law" and its "natural, mathematical properties." Oh, how silly of me to ever doubt! Of course! This wave function law, which existed prior to the universe in a total state of non-existence caused the universe because of its already existing mathematical properties. Yeeekiaaeee! Hallelujah! Glory to the great IPF! Amazing, Quentin, Amazing. Victor Stenger Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Hawaii "Uncaused, random quantum fluctuations in a flat, empty, featureless space-time can produce local regions with positive or negative curvature. This is called the "spacetime foam"...The so-called "anthropic coincidences," in which the particles and forces of physics seem to be "fine-tuned" for the production of Carbon-based life are explained by the fact that the spacetime foam has an infinite number of universes popping off, each different. We just happen to be in the one where the forces and particles lent themselves to the generation of carbon and other atoms with the complexity necessary to evolve living and thinking organisms." (Victor Stenger, 1996) What amazing mustard-seed faith! The IPF is pleased to hear such phrases of Stenger as "spacetime foam has an infinite number of universes popping off." Ha, ha! Ok, lets take a time out, here. Just say it real slow- "space-time-foam-has-an-infinite-number-of-universes-popping-off." We here at the Ministry of Reason were so amazed at such a statement in the name of physics that we wanted imagine what it would be like to be present in a scientific lecture where a professor said such a thing. You can listen to it here. Also note when Stenger says, "forces of physics seem to be 'fined tuned' for the production of carbon-based life," and "we just happen to be in the one where the forces..." Wow, what great faith! Thanks, Victor. Mark Vuletic M.A. Philosophy We enjoyed this one. "Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things - perhaps even the entire universe - can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes" (Mark I Vuletic, Creation Ex-Nihilo- Without God, 1997) Curious, however, what are these natural processes that exist in a state of absolute nothingness? But who needs to answer that, after all we've seen causation ex-nihilo with our own eyes. May the IPF be with you. Heinz Pagels (1939-1988, no home page found) Physicist, Former CEO New York Academy of Sciences "Maybe the universe itself sprang into existence out of nothingness - a gigantic vacuum fluctuation which we know today as the big bang. Remarkably, the laws of modern physics allow for this possibility." (Heinz Pagels, The Cosmic Code) Oh, Pagels my child. Ye of little faith. There is no Maybe! The gigantic vacuum fluctuation is real! The IPF is a physical reality proven by science. Cast off all doubts, my son. The great IPF perhaps will give you a vision, and light the fire in your bosom. Andrew Lias (credentials unknown) Mr. Lias composed a widely-distributed response to the Kalam Cosmological Argument (thanks in part to the Secular Web). Though not a scientist (as far as we know), he expressed such blind devotion to the IPF, surely it inspires even a PhD. "So what about creation ex nihilo? ...the vacuum itself is subject to quantum uncertainty. If the energy of the vacuum were precisely zero, then there would be no uncertainty. The consensus of Quantum physicists is that this manifests itself as a basic "frothiness" in the actual fabric of space-time..there is, literally, nothing in the laws of physics to prevent a vacuum from spontaneously "degenerating", nor any necessary upper bounds that such degradation can manifest.." (Andrew Lias The Kalam Cosmological Argument: A Rebuttal, 1997) Can someone please petition the IPF to get me a hot mug of spacetime frothiness? I'd like a shot of vanilla with that if you dont mind please. Oh, by the way Andrew, there is nothing in the laws of physics that can demonstrate such a wild, fanatical claim as a vacuum spontaneously generating with an infinite upper boundary. Wow, what amazing faith! Such a feat is greater than any possible, conceivable supernatural event. There is also nothing in the laws of physics that can summarily rule the existence of the supernatural and the possibility of miracles. AND, there is also nothing in the laws of physics to conclude that at precisely zero there is certainty for anything except nothing. (note: this is not the zero-point level, which is actually more than precisely zero). We decided to record a scholarly coversation about this very issue: that with no uncertainty, there is certainty. Listen to the amazing freethinking skills at work: Since there exists no vacuum that we can observe that contains "precisely zero" how can Andrew make such a bold claim that with no uncertainty, there could be certainty of anything more than nothing? But who cares! Its the convicting faith that counts. The IPF has touched his life. Andrew has been changed by its great pink power. William Kaufmann ASU, Department of Physics and Astronomy "Normally, a particle and anti-particle have no trouble getting back together in a time interval...short enough so that the conservation of mass is satisfied under the uncertainty principle. During the Big Bang, however, space was expanding so fast that particles were rapidly pulled away from their corresponding antiparticles (William Kaufmann, Universe, 1985) Kaufmann here admits that laws of physics (in this case the Heisenberg principle) can be thrown out or even "beaten" at the time of the big bang . But of course, if we can chuck aside the laws of physics at the beginning of the big bang, then how in the world can you use physics to explain the universe before the big bang? The IPF is pleased, very pleased with the faith of William Kaufmann. Paul Davies PhD, Physicist How we love this one: "Some have suggested that there is a deep cosmic principle at work which requires the universe to have exactly zero energy. If that is so the cosmos can follow the path of least resistance, coming into existence without requiring any input of matter or energy at all." (Paul Davies, God and the New Physics, 1983) That deep cosmic principle- come one Davies...just say it and proclaim it. Its the IPF! Of course in a void of absolute nothingness, the path of least resistance would be nothing. But who cares about logic and reason, just toss it out the door! Davies has (wisely) chosen to give adoration to the Great IPF. Listen to these great, all-wise words of wisdom concerning that "deep cosmic principle" (all backed by science, of course!): '"anything can come out of a naked singularity—in the case of the big bang the universe came out. Its creation represents the instantaneous suspension of physical laws, the sudden, abrupt flash of lawlessness that allowed something to come out of nothing." (Pauld Davies, The Edge of Infinity, p. 161) Of course, it takes no faith at all to say "anything (including gods and spirits) can come out of a naked singularity!" Thats pure physics! Remember, we atheists dont have any faith. Those dumb xians have the blind faith, not us. We have logic and Reason- we have the Great IPF! Now we know just what Davies means by "New Physics!" A "naked singularity"- we never knew physics had a "smut" side. Ha ha! And lucky for us that our universe just happened to come out. Wow, this is far, far more reasonable and scientifically proven than creation. What devotion to the IPF. We here at the Ministry of Reason wondered what it may have sounded like when our universe popped out of a naked singularity. We think we have the answer: Peter Atkins PhD, Professor of Chemistry "The second possibility is that the universe can come into existence only with a particular mix of fundamental constants. Other universes, some with pi=42, others with bright pink electrons wieghing a ton, might bubble into incipient existence but collapse again through want of stability or in some way being logically self-inconsistant." (Peter Atkins, What is the Evidence For/Against God?, 1998) Wheew, let those universii bubble into existence. Yeeaaa! We love it! And so does the IPF. I mean, just think about this concept: You have this potential universe that is a priori logically self-inconsistant, it then begins to bubble into existence. But suddenly, it realizes that it is self-contradictory. Somehow, it manages to weigh itself against an already existing absolute standard of logic, to which it realizes that it is fundamentally disobeying, hence necessitates its own annihilation. Please, can I get a scribe? Anyone? This is good religion here. But it doesn't stop there. Atkins wont let us down with just one profession of blind faith- he dishes it up buffett style: "The third possibility is that there are trillions and trillions of universes with trillions more popping up into existence as I speak!" (Peter Atkins, What is the Evidence For/Against God?, 1998) Orville Redenbacker would be seriously thwarted by such competition. Lets get out that popper and have us some freshly popped, caramel-coated universii. Oh, wait, this is all science, of course. This is all fully logical and backed by empirical evidence. I almost forgot. Atkins continues to serve the well-fed table: "Sometimes chance patterned points into a space as well as a time...then, by chance, there came about our fluctuation." (Peter Atkins, Creation Revisited, 1992, emphasis ours) How lucky, how fortunate, how blessed we are that OUR fluctuation just happened to come about. I feel so special. After all, ours was a very special fluctuation. Wow, the benedictions of the IPF are great indeed. The IPF is so proud of such logical, backed-by-science freethinkers Theodore Drange PhD, Philosopher "Scientists can claim that miracles occur, but when they do so, they do so only as laypersons, not as scientists. But what, then, are we to say about such persons? Their minds seem to be compartmentalized into at least a scientific part and a religious part....We have already established that the scientist 'qua scientist' cannot believe in miracles"Theodore Drange, Science And Miracles, 1998) Our friend, Theodore, has latched hold of the Great IPF with a solid grip. Here, he summarily slams all the xians, denouncing any belief in miracles as being unscientific. And how does Drange define "miracle?" (from the same article): "Let us define a "miracle" simply as an event which violates at least one law of nature." So Theodore plainly concludes that a person who believes in an event that violates a law of nature cannot be doing so as a scientist! But of course our atheist friend would emphatically declare that a self-caused universe ex-nihilo doesn't violate any laws of nature! You dont need any faith at all to accept "something from nothing!" Its science! Jeffrey Jay Lowder President, The Secular Web Ahhh....the great apostle Jeffrey Jay Lowder, president of the Internet Infidels, the largest atheistic website on the internet. "Scientific hypotheses must be testable. There is no such guarantee with respect to religious claims: they may be testable; then again, they might not be. " (Jeffrey Jay Lowder, Has science found God? July 25, 1998) So, is the spontaneous uncaused existence of the universe testable? If not, then surely, according to Lowders own words, it cannot be a scientific hypothesis. But who cares about science! A mammoth quantum fluctuation from the void is not a hypothesis. Its a FACT! Glory to the IPF! I've heard he is a really nice guy, actually, who is respected among even many theists. But we still cannot overlook the fact that despite his reputation and amazing achievement at the Secular Web, his professed goal is still one to combat supernaturalism (see his article making a plea for an atheistic full-time 'hired gun') Many contributors on Lowders site are obstinate haters of Christianity, and some (like Zindler) advocate its total abomination. I sometimes wonder if Lowder's politeness towards Theists is a disguise and like other atheists, he ultimately sees Christianity as a "disease" like some of his peers do. (Farrell Till, Richard Dawkins, and Dan Barker just to name a few). Or perhaps Lowder actually does respect Christians without having any kind of an "inner struggle" with his atheism (more importantly, an inner struggle with the entire purpose of his website). Does Lowder side with Madalyn O'hair and Farrell Till who believe that religion is a great societal evil that needs to be eradicated for the benefit of humanity? And if so, could he say it to his theists friends? Could he tell them directly to their face that they represent a "disease" on earth that needs to be "cleansed?" He wouldnt be such a "nice" guy if he did, now would he? And if not, then how would he respond to some of his more radical and extremist peers that he supports with his website? There are many kinds of theism out there. In fact, there are many kinds of "christianity". As a Christian theist, I would never put up a paper written by a White Supremacist on my website, even though that supremacist claimed to be a "christian". If I did, I would put a disclaimer disassociating my organization from the individuals posted view points. I discern between that which I can unify with, and that which should not represent my position. Lowder, on the other hand, apparently does not discern. If its atheistic and "scholarly," it can go up- even if it is militant and advocates extremists viewpoints such as Christian eradication and passionate hate (yes, oh yes, atheists can be very passionate) There is a big difference between an atheist who wants a separation of church and state and one who wants elimination. I dont personally know Mr. Lowder, nor make any claim to what his true stance is. I do know that he has attempted to "unify" or "communize" the atheistic community in an effort to strengthen their position by combining resources for an increased attack against theism (specifically Christianity). He has a very clear and directed purpose, and because of his many articles and links to pro-active and militant atheism, that purpose does not appear to be a friendly one. It would seem, then, that Lowder sees Christianity as an enemy- an enemy that needs to be 'cleansed' from society, a disease that infects humanity requiring extermination- yet at the same time he seeks to earn respect from theists, perhaps even friendship? And if he does not take such a radical stance against Christianity (such as desiring its eradication), then why does he promote and support such atheists on his site? This is what I find interesting. Lowder has made an incredible achievement with his website, no doubt. But the question that theists may soon need to ask is "What does he seek to benefit through his relationships with theists?" We ask this question in light of the many articles on his website that support the total abolishment of Christianity (implying the use of force as justification to get rid of the "disease". To host such articles without disclaimer forces us to question if theists should pursue friendly relationships with Lowder. We will withold further comments and opinions on Mr. Lowder since we dont know him, and (from what I've heard) is a very decent guy. For now, we are just left but to wonder... Ed Tryon Ph.D. Particle Physics, Cosmology Now, let us close with the greatest man of the IPF faith there is- the all-wise and enlightened Ed Tryon- even Siddhartha Guatama would feel abased. "The universe is just a quantum fluctuation..The universe is simply one of those things that happens from time to time." - (Hunter College physicist Ed Tryon) Oh, Ed, how we love you. You just flat out admit it point blank. Your faith has inspired us all. May the IPF be with you.
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:32 pm Religion and the Scientist ...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world... And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........ Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought. Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, lease answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning? Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine. Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product. Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable. Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence? Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on. Yunus: Is this what you believe? Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory. Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago. Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory. Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam. Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed. Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this. Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess. Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ? Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape. Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat. Bob: Go on. Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago? Bob: I'm not convinced. Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from? Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own. Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork. Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well. Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha! Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school. Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis. Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "  God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet? Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live. Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy. Bob: I'm listening. Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........" Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580. Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets". Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________. Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect. Bob: What do you mean?! Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa. The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding". Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes". Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off. The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ? Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres. Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........" Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation. Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed. Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all. Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans.... Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %. Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from water. Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water. Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents. Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa. Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart. Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ? Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate..... Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick. Bob: Tell me more. Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, " God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......." Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....". Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place. Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them. Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue. Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it." Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings? Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan? Bob: Please go on. This is interesting. Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world. Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description. Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy. These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God." Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media? Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences." Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue.... Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......". Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics. Bob: What do you mean? Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited. Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean? Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two. Bob: Can you give me an example ? Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health. Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination. Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam. Bob: What do you mean ? Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact. Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ. Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing. Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine. Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon....... Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases. Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork. Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ? Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown. Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down.........
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| | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 06:21 pm The Moral System Of Islam By Abul 'Ala Al-Mawdudi MAN has been blessed with an innate sense of morality, which has served to guide him through the age, enabling him to distinguish between right and wrong and good and evil. Although the degree to which a certain quality is interpreted as being either good or evil may vary from person to person, there is more or less a universal consensus regarding the classification of what constitutes a moral deed or attribute and what does not. Thus, virtues such as bravery and truthfulness have always elicited praise. In contrast to this, we find that at no time in the history of man have qualities such as dishonesty and breach of trust ever been upheld or regarded as worthy of praise. Fidelity, magnanimity and integrity have always been valued, whilst selfishness, cruelty, miserliness and bigot, have never received the approbation of society at large. Perseverance, determination and courage are qualities that are much admired and appreciated by man, whereas impatience, fickleness and cowardice are given little consideration. Dignity, restraint, politeness and amiability have always been regarded as virtues as opposed to snobbery, arrogance and discourteousness, which have never been recognized as good moral qualities. A person who possesses a sense of responsibility and devotion to duty has always been high regarded and respected whilst he who is lazy, negligent of his duties and undisciplined is largely ignored and looked down upon. Similarly, a society that is founded upon and actively promotes equality, justice and freedom is looked upon a positive light. A society in which injustice, disorganization, disunity and social imbalance manifest themselves is considered to be on the verge of collapse, having allowed itself to decay over time through the implementation of policies destructive to the very core upon which it is based. Robbery, larceny, murder, adultery and fraud have always been condemned. Slander, blackmail and bribery have never been regarded as wholesome social activities. Contrary to this, we of the aged, loyalty to friends, helping one's kith and kin in times of need, concern for neighbours, assisting the week and oppressed and nursing the sick are all activities that have been highly valued since the dawn of civilization. People who are polite, sincere, upright, dependable, who are prompt in discharging their obligations to others, who live in peace and allow others to do likewise have always formed the core of any healthy society. Good and evil are not myths awaiting resurrection, they are a real part of our everyday lives and hence, Allah has blessed mankind with an inherent sense of right and wrong. Allah says in the Qur'an: " Allah) has revealed to human nature the consciousness and the cognition of good and evil. " (Surah as-Shams: 8) The questions that now arise are: If the basic values of good and evil are universally recognized, why then, do varying patterns of moral behavior exist in the world? Why are there so many conflicting moral philosophies? Where does the root of these differences lie? What is the position of Islam with respect to other ethical systems? How can we justify the claim that Islam provides us with a perfectly balanced moral system? What is the distinctive contribution that Islam has made in the realm of ethics? These questions are important and must be dealt with in a direct manner. However, given the limitations of space we shall only be able to touch upon these issues very briefly. The following points will serve to outline the answers to the above questions: 1. The present moral systems fail to integrate moral virtues and norms by prescribing specific limits and as a consequence of this, a balanced and coherent plan for social conduct has not been devised. 2. Each moral system presents a different interpretation of what is good and what is evil, hence moral standards differ. The vindication of a particular viewpoint is complicated further when we realize that the sanction or the authority behind it also differs from one system to another. Likewise, the theories that are formulated to determine the motives that impel someone to follow one pattern of behaviour as opposed to another also differ 3. We find on deeper reflection, that these differences emerge from the conflicting views and concepts regarding the universe, man's place in that universe and man's purpose of existence on Earth. The multitude of religions, philosophies, ideologies and theories that exist are a testament to and a reflection upon the diversity and the divergence of man's views in regard to these fundamental questions and others such as: Does God exist? What are His attributes? What is the relationship between man and God ? Will man be held accountable for what he does in this life? Why was man created? A man's way of life and his patterns of moral behaviour will be determined by his response to the above questions. Once more due to a shortage of space we find ourselves unable to consider in depth the various ethical systems that exist in the world today, to expound the solutions proposed by each in response to fundamental issues and describe what impact these solutions have had on the moral evolution of societies founded on such concept. Therefore, in light of these limitations, we shall only consider the Islamic concept of morality. The Islamic Concept Of Life And Morality According to Islam, the universe is Allah's creation. He is the Sovereign and Sustainer of the universe. He is All Wise, All-Powerful, Omniscient. His Godhood is free from injustice and impartiality. Man is the creation of Allah, His subject and servant born to obey and worship Him. Man has been commanded to live his life in total compliance to the laws of Allah. Over the course of time, Allah sent prophets to mankind to guide and instruct them in these matters. Man is given a choice as to whether or not he wishes to follow the message of the prophets and adhere to their teachings, yet whichever path he chooses he will be held accountable for it and any consequent actions based upon it. Hence, man's time on this earth may be perceived as an opportunity to prepare himself, as best he is able, for the life hereafter. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and no one be made to bear the burdens of another. Judgement Day provides incentive for all believers to act in accordance with the teachings of Islam, in the hope that they may achieve salvation. The previous exposition of the Islamic concept of life and morality has shown us that the aim of man is to seek the pleasure of Allah. In Islam, this is a standard by which a particular mode of conduct may be judged and classified as being either good or bad. This standard provides the nucleus around which moral conduct should evolve. Man is not left like a ship without moorings to be tossed hither and thither at the mercy of the winds and the tides. Islam provides man with a stable and balanced set of values and norms for all morally-based activities. Moreover, in establishing the pleasure of Allah' as the objective of man's existence, windows of unlimited possibilities are opened for his moral evolution since, at no time will it be overshadowed by selfishness, bigotry, arrogance or pride. Our knowledge of vice and virtue should not be based upon mere intellect, desire, intuition or experience, since these factors are subject to constant change, modifying themselves and evolving in accordance with the dictates of external influences. Thus, they are unable to provide us with definitive and categorical standards of morality. Rather, Islam provides us with Divine revelation embodied in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). This source of knowledge prescribes a standard of moral conduct that is both permanent and universal, applicable to all times and circumstances. The Islamic moral code covers the smallest details of domestic life and extends to accommodate the broader aspects of national and international modes of behaviour. These regulations free us from the exclusive dependence upon any other source of knowledge. The Sanction Behind Morality The Islamic concept of the universe and man's place therein furnishes the sanction that must support all morally-based injunctions. Islam presents powerful arguments, with the aim of inducing mankind to abide by its principles of morality and to construct a political system that would enforce the moral law through its legislative and executive powers. Islam relies upon the inherent urge for good that resides in everyone's heart which in turn is based upon the love and fear of Allah, the awareness of accountability on the Day of Judgement and the promise of eternal bliss. Thus, before enforcing any moral injunctions Islam seeks to implant firmly in man's heart the conviction that all his dealings in this We relate directly to Allah. A man may be able to conceal certain deeds from others, he may be successful in deceiving others but Allah is fully aware of that which has transpired. Allah is All- Knowing, All-Seeing, All-Wise. Allah knows man's innermost intentions and desires and thus, whatever man does in this life he cannot escape from the fact that one day he will die and be compelled to account for what has passed. On that Day there will be no advocation, no favours, no impartiality, fraud and deception will be of no avail; justice will be done. Therefore, it has become clear that only a deep-rooted belief can motivate man to incorporate these moral injunctions into his everyday life. If popular opinion and the coercive powers of the state enforce these injunctions so much the better, otherwise the true believer must rely solely upon his faith in Allah. Distinctive Features Of The Islamic Moral Code Islam has furnished mankind with the highest possible standards of morality making Divine Pleasure one of man's main objectives in life. Islam does not provide any novel moral virtues nor does it seek to minimize the significance of established moral norms. Morality is approached with a sense of balance and proportion assigning a suitable place and function to each moral virtue within the total scheme of life. Indeed, their scope of application is widened somewhat to cater for every aspect of man's life on both an individual and a collective basis from the cradle to the grave. Islam enjoins upon man a way of life that promotes goodness and frees society from evil. Muslims are invoked not only to practice virtue but to actively establish it in their immediate environment and to eradicate vice and corruption. This task is the collective responsibility of the Muslims and it would be a day of mourning indeed if the efforts of a particular community were directed towards establishing evil and suppressing good. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/aqeedah/default.htm http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/stories/default.htm
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:10 am Asad You definately should have been a Jewish Lawyer. OK, let's go back to square one. You are the most condescending motherfucker I've ever met. Worse than me, and that's quite an accomplishment. Let's go back to all good comes from God and then your assertion that God controls Satan. What's the problem with this you dumb-ass?? If good comes from God, but evil comes from Satan, and God controls Satan, then Evil comes from God. If God controls all things (including my good actions) then I must not have free will. Hello??? Anyone home over there??? That's about the most sophomoric, idiotic logic train I've ever heard. I never thought I'd hear sometheing that obviously stupid come from you. Come on now, time to turn on the brain before you log on to the computer. Are you telling me that God is both good and Evil, and that Satan is just one of his hired hit men??? You asked me if those are the only sins I committed? There's one other I almost forgot about (don't ask me how) I should have been more active in adjusting flight profiles when the SA-7 threat was discovered. I was not alone on that one, but that cost us a Blackhawk and three dead men. That one's bothered me too. Now, you've got to understand we're not talking your definition of sin here. My definition of sin is, you know when you are not doing the right thing. You don't need a book to tell you. It's in your gut. This gut knowledge comes from God - I believe this is an Islamic philosophy too - we're all born into a state of Islam. So perhaps God places this knowledge in us at birth. Those are the things that stick in my gut - do you understand?? And I would hardly consider myself special - my girlfriend does though. So does my mother, but I think that is a universal thing. As for the hereafter you ask me what I subscribe to. I don't. I don't know what happens when we die. Part of me believes in reincarnation, part of me says there's another plane we move to, and part of me says we can't even conceive of it. I've given up worrying about it. Try and do the right thing when you're here on the planet earth. That's the best I can do for you. Lastly, my faith is an genuine as yours. I was never a very spiratual person but became more so after witnessing divine intervention first hand. You obviously believe prayer is a one way communication. The purpose of prayer for you would appear to be solely to render thanks to Allah. For me it's much more of a two way thing, though certainly not like you would imagine a casual conversation. For one, it takes concentration and a clear mind. There's too much background noise here on Earth I suspect. But if you don't believe God talks with us, fine. Belive whatever you want. But don't tell me what my experiences are. How would you know??? Are you me? Have you been me? Did you ever witness a legitimate miracle? IT ain't your place to judge my faith. But whatever. You ain't going to change my mind. Pragmatic Girl Well, all I can tell you is Hawkings did announce he is a monotheist and roughly that was his explanation for what drove him to his conclusions. Beyond that I would be loathe to comment. I'm glad you understand my rationale. I do agree that my experience is not sufficient for others - hence I have made no attempt at mass conversions to Macism. Asad She whipped your ass dude. You got clobbered in that last exchange. You were doing OK up til then, but from a purely logical point fo view - you just got smoked, even though I don't agree with her and find myself generally more sympathetic to you smart-ass.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 07:23 am "Asad You definately should have been a Jewish Lawyer." i had once a jewish lawyer represent me in a law suit case which he won for me. i was new to the country. it had to do with unlawful job termination from a place i used to work. after the case, he took me to a restaurent to celebrate and while we were eating, he advice gave me an advice and said get out of new york city and go a small town where i can attend school with the money ($15.000). i told him i wanted to be a lawyer, but he told me to be anything else, but a lawyer. he said a practicing muslim like me shouldn't be envolve in his profession. ;-). "OK, let's go back to square one." okay "You are the most condescending motherfucker I've ever met. Worse than me, and that's quite an accomplishment." lol "Let's go back to all good comes from God and then your assertion that God controls Satan." i said all good or whatever good reaches people is from Allah as an act of pure divine grace-----unpreceded by any act of special merit on the part of people and all evil or whatsoever evil comes from people, it is a manifestation of divine justice----in part requital of some sin on the people. ;-) "What's the problem with this you dumb-ass??" lol----dumb-ass. ;-) "If good comes from God, but evil comes from Satan, and God controls Satan, then Evil comes from God. If God controls all things (including my good actions) then I must not have free will. Hello??? Anyone home over there??? That's about the most sophomoric, idiotic logic train I've ever heard. I never thought I'd hear sometheing that obviously stupid come from you. Come on now, time to turn on the brain before you log on to the computer. Are you telling me that God is both good and Evil, and that Satan is just one of his hired hit men???" mad mac, you are funny hypocrite and you would not even answer the questions i put to you. i asked you who created satan------your god, right? ;-). hypocrites before you did the same things and said what you are saying, but Allah said "And if there reaches them some good they (the hypocrites) say: this is from Allah (intending to mean thereby that it has been due to mere fortuitous set of circumstances, and not to any excellence on the poar of the holy prophet and the muslims), and if there reaches them some ill (evil), they (the hypocrites) say (in their intense hatred of the prophet and muslims): this is because of thee (the prophet and his companions). Say thou (O Muhammad): from Allah is everthing. What ails then this people, that they do not understand any speech (even a thing so self-evident).(Nisa 79). mad mac, if you are not a hypocrite, why can't you answer the question of-----who created the satan? ;-). "You asked me if those are the only sins I committed? There's one other I almost forgot about (don't ask me how)" lol----just *one* other sin. ;-). are you sure that you are not lying? ;-). if we go back to the types (the list) of lairs, i would say you are an unconscionable lair. ;-). you are completely without a conscience or are you a pathological lair? ;-) "I should have been more active in adjusting flight profiles when the SA-7 threat was discovered. I was not alone on that one, but that cost us a Blackhawk and three dead men. That one's bothered me too." is this sin against the american government? ;-) "Now, you've got to understand we're not talking your definition of sin here." i know we are talking about your definition of sin. ;-) "My definition of sin is, you know when you are not doing the right thing. You don't need a book to tell you. It's in your gut. This gut knowledge comes from God" so your god didn't send books and prophet, right? he made you you own prophet and gave your your definition of sins and your own moral code, right? ;-) "I believe this is an Islamic philosophy too" what! i thought you said we were not talking about my (islamic definition)! ;-) "we're all born into a state of Islam." did your god tell you this or you read it somewhere? ;-). didn't you say you need no books? ;-) "So perhaps God places this knowledge in us at birth. Those are the things that stick in my gut - do you understand??" looks like you are not sure of your own statments that you are making. you said "perhaps". unlike you, i don't have doubt in what God says; i don't say maybe. ;-) "And I would hardly consider myself special - my girlfriend does though. So does my mother, but I think that is a universal thing." i bet they caught you lying too sometimes. ;-) "As for the hereafter you ask me what I subscribe to. I don't." again, what is this hereafter you are talking about then? ;-) "I don't know what happens when we die." but you think you will go a place called the "here-after", right? ;-) "Part of me believes in reincarnation, part of me says there's another plane we move to, and part of me says we can't even conceive of it." i thought you said you talk to your god! did he tell you one thing? does your god want to make you confuse with all these beliefs? ;-) "I've given up worrying about it." why don't you talk to him and ask which one is the right belief and make sure this time you hear him audibly, okay? ;-) "Try and do the right thing when you're here on the planet earth." did he tell you that you are going to another planet? ;-) "That's the best I can do for you." lol "Lastly, my faith is an genuine as yours." to you, yes. ;-) "I was never a very spiratual person but became more so after witnessing divine intervention first hand." that is when you heard voice, right? ;-) "You obviously believe prayer is a one way communication." yes "The purpose of prayer for you would appear to be solely to render thanks to Allah." that is not only it. "For me it's much more of a two way thing, though certainly not like you would imagine a casual conversation." so when you are communicating with your god and having conversation with him (questions and answers), this is prayer for you, right? is it also considered worship? ;-) "For one, it takes concentration and a clear mind." i bet it does. ;-) "There's too much background noise here on Earth I suspect." lol----you suspect. ;-) "But if you don't believe God talks with us, fine." i said i don't hear voices. ;-) "Belive whatever you want." same to you. ;-) "But don't tell me what my experiences are." i'm only asking. ;-) "How would you know??? Are you me? Have you been me?" i don't know your experience and i'm not you and never have been you. ;-) "Did you ever witness a legitimate miracle?" yes, and i read it everyday----the Qur'an. ;-) "IT ain't your place to judge my faith." i'm only asking questions here. i want to understand you and your god and the relationship you have. ;-) "But whatever. You ain't going to change my mind." i'm not going to. ;-) "Asad She whipped your ass dude." is this your wishful thinking? ;-) "You got clobbered in that last exchange." i did? ;-) "You were doing OK up til then, but from a purely logical point fo view - you just got smoked, even though I don't agree with her and find myself generally more sympathetic to you smart-ass." lol----you smart-ass. ;-) that is funny. she rephrased your question and i told her to tell you nothing is too heavy for Allah-------isn't He the most Powerful? you and her are talking about a heavy stone-------would a heavy stone hold the universe and who created the universe? ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 07:52 am PG you said: "But if free-will means freedom to believe or disbelieve in the existence of God, then that makes no sense: How can God punish people for not believing in him, if he doesn't even show himself to everyone equally?" and I imagine this is your logic, right? Go back to yourself and see how many things that you did not see and believe in. You beleive that you are given birth by your mom and dad. Did u see/remember when that happened? Why do you beleive your mom and the doctor when he looks at the your DNA and says this is your mom and that is your dad? So tell me PG, is everything you beleive in is what you saw for yourself? don't tell me that your mama told you, or science told you or people told you. Yes your have a freewill that you can ignore all what the people say. You don't have to beleive that you are born by human, you don't have to beleive that is a ROME, Moscow and Mogadishu until you saw them for yourself. As a matter of fact don't take anything on anybody's words, go and see for yourself then beleive. Nobody is forcing you. if you do that, the only thing people will do is to think that you are lunitic. PG has a choice that she can disbeleive anything if this the case to all of us(we believe what we did not see). why it's different in the case of beleiving in Allah. Use logic my dear lady lol. Try to elliminate any kind of faith from your daily life and then I will know you are talking logic. you said: "BTW, why is it that God cannot show himself clearly for all to see? Why must he rely on other men to get his message across?" Is it, possible if Allah showed Himself to you, and still you would not beleive in. Why not? You could have other arguements such as, that was not real. it was magic. Why not? How about if HE sends angles. We could have said, these are different creatures. We need somebody like us who we can follow. How are we supposed to follow someone different from us. remember we would have been the same humans as we are today. As for Teacher example, it was so misplaced. if I were you I would have put the Prophet in the place of Teacher. Teachers do not neccessarily do exams. When I have a time I will show your confusion in your last post about freewil, Evil and Good. I See that you like to jump into things so easily.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 07:54 am Who created Satan? Boy this is getting complicated. Who created God? When you can tell me who created God I'll tell you who created Satan. Hey Saxib, I've gotta split. Got company. I'll finish later. Check the other posts. Be cool. I can't believe you got help from a Jew - whoa!!! But I think his advice was bad - you would make a great lawyer. You would argue the opposition to death!!!!
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 08:31 am "Who created Satan? Boy this is getting complicated. Who created God? When you can tell me who created God I'll tell you who created Satan." mad mac, since you *claimed* you believe in the existance of God, i thought you believed that God created everthing in the world-------that satan is the creation and God is the Creator! don't you know that Allah is He who has ever been-----One and Alone; the Independent lacking in nothing and wanting none to complement Him; the Absolute; the Ethernal----imperfections and limitations; the Infinite with no begining and no ending! aren't you a hypocrite, mad mac? tell the truth---don't lie. ;-) someone wrote this somewhere"The Prophet (peace be upon him) warned that the satanic forces would seek to introduce doubts in the hearts of the believers by raising unanswerable questions about God. Aboo Hurayrah related that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “Satan will come to everyone of you and ask: Who created this and that? - until he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in Allah [say: I affirm my faith in Allah and His prophets] and avoid [such thoughts].” "Hey Saxib, I've gotta split. Got company. I'll finish later. Check the other posts. Be cool." okay. "I can't believe you got help from a Jew - whoa!!!" he help me because he knew he was going to make money out of the case. ;-) "But I think his advice was bad" he knew what he was talking about. i still remember his name------max rosen. he was a nice guy. ;-) "you would make a great lawyer." that would be compromising the religion. ;-) "You would argue the opposition to death!!!!" lol
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 09:49 am I would like to put this point that I missed out from my last posting. PG suggested People will have no choice but to beleive In Allah if He had showed himself to them. For this to happen it must be MIRACLE(since it does not obey any known process of the law of science). But she already stated in her posting: "I personally don't believe in miracles" what a contradiction!!!
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:28 am nour, i don't think that is what she is suggesting. i think she is saying people would still have choice to disbelieve in Allah even if He show Himself to them! i think she is wrong if she is saying that. i mean can someone deny what he or she sees? also, nour, in your previous note, you asked pragmaticgal and said to her this: "Is it, possible if Allah showed Himself to you, and still you would not believe in. Why not?" this question does not make sense and falls in the same line as hers. i mean even if your question made sense, she could not deny in His existence. i mean satan does not deny Allah's existence, does he? no he does not, right? ;-) if you see yourself in the mirror would you deny what you see and say that is not me? ;-). know that you and i and her will can not see Allah and Allah would not show Himself to us. we are not angels or we are not prophets (prophetess her case)-----whom Allah chosen to show Himself to us. we can only deny Him (His existence) when we can not see Him. ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:36 am nour, i don't think that is what she is suggesting. i think she is saying people would still have choice to disbelieve in Allah even if He show Himself to them! i think she is wrong if she is saying that. i mean can someone deny what he or she sees? also, nour, in your previous note, you asked pragmaticgal and said to her this: "Is it, possible if Allah showed Himself to you, and still you would not believe in. Why not?" this question does not make sense and falls in the same line as hers. i mean even if your question made sense, she could not deny in His existence. i mean satan does not deny Allah's existence, does he? no he does not, right? ;-) if you see yourself in the mirror would you deny what you see and say that is not me? ;-). know that you and i and her will can not see Allah and Allah would not show Himself to us. we are not angels or we are not prophets (prophetess her case)-----whom Allah chosen to show Himself to us. we can only deny Him (His existence) when we can not see Him. you and i accept Him (His existence) when we don't see Him; she denies Him (His existence). we can not prove our faith in His existence) and she can not prove her faith in His non-existence. ;-). JUG JUG MA'HAADA JOOG------until the examination DAY. ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 11:12 am Truth is always denied( even though, the denier might know it's true) because of arrogance, keeping some kind of prestige, position, and so on. Things are not always how they appear to the person. What I mean is that seeing is not 100% reliable for finding out the truth. We know magic make something appear than they really are. Why don't that person believe what he sees in his/her own eyes? the way I understand is that PG is saying that, logically it's possible to have freewill in Allah's disobedience but How it's possible, if Allah exists, for the people to have freewill in Allah' existence. The only logic she using is that Allah could have shown Himself to the Humans such that everybody will know Allah exists. And since Allah did not do that, Allah does not exist. she can correct me if I'm wrong. what I'm saying is that; logically, its pathetic to think that way. Seeing always does not lead to believe and not seeing does not lead to disbelief. Today I can decide that I'm no longer believe that I was born by any human. No matter what you do you can not make me belief if I don't want it to belief. So there, I have a choice.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 11:59 am ANON and Nour, You both misunderstood me. I am saying that free-will is about obedience to Allah's will, not belief. Satan's KNOWS there's Allah, but he still CHOOSES to disobey (not disbelief) Him. Why? Because he has the choice: For example, I know my parents are my parents, and I know they exist, but I can still disobey them. That's free-will. Saying that free-choice has to do with believing in God is a contradiction of the fact that Adam and Eve, even though they knew God existed, still CHOSE to disobey him. What I am saying is that that would be a far fairer and more sensible way to "do business", if God existed: He lets everyone know that He exists, but punishes those who don't OBEY him. Not those who don't believe in Him. As for people still insisting that they don't believe what they see, that's just dumb: how many people insist that they don't believe in the sun? Or the moon? Other people? I don't need a stupid excuse like "I don't believe you exist" to disobey my parents! I can just disobey them by not doing what they say... Then I really would deserve whatever punishment I received. But if my parents never showed themselves to me, never directly told me what to do, but still insisted I believe in and obey them, then what kind of parents would they be? How hard can that be to understand???
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 12:58 pm ANON, <the prophets are protected and were chosen to only obey; they would not disobey orders of Allah. prophets are special human being and are given the tools-----some talked with God and others are given first hand knowledge of Allah. ordinarry human being like you and i can not be like them and that is not what we are expected to be; we are expected to accept of their message. their only job was to deliver message and be teachers. ;-)> Oh my my. So you are saying that Muhammed, for example, did not have free will. He could not disbelieve or disobey Allah. Okay, so let me just point out one teeny little problem with your thesis. First though, let's see, why was Adam superior to the angels? Because he was smarter? No. Prettier? Nope. More powerful? Uh-uh. Adam was superior to the angels because he had FREEWILL. God wasn't satisfied with obedient, unquestioning automotons, He wanted obedience that comes from free choice. There's another reason in the Qur'an (that he knew the names of things), but it's so prosperous, I won't consider it here. Can you just imagine a teacher teaching something to one student, and then chastising all the others because they didn't know? So okay, Adam is superior than angels because he had freewill. Muhammed had no free-will. But you have free-will. Therefore, wait for it... YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO MUHAMMED BECAUSE YOU HAVE FREEWILL!!! That's right ANON--You, poor struggling sinner, are a better Muslim than Muhammed, and you know why? Because you CHOSE to obey God. Muhammed didn't choose, he was chosen. He didn't believe out of faith, he believed because Gabriel was squeezing the breath out of him, and demanding that he "Read! In the name of your Lord!" You were right. Muhammed had no choice. What sane human being can disobey an overpowering and threatening presence like Gabriel? What's more Muhammed had ample opportunity to re-inforce his belief: Each time Gabriel told him new verses of the Qur'an, he was a palpable, terrifying force; When Muhammed was a kid two angels slit his chest open and removed black "meat" from his heart that's supposed to represent evil; He's threatened within the Qur'an that if he makes up anything, he will be killed. And then there's the journey on Laylatul Qadr: Muhammed saw angels, prophets, Hell and Heaven. He couldn't help but believe in God. But YOU, you are different. You truly submit as a "willing soul". No body showed you angels or Hell or Heaven. Therefore, you are a Muslim in a way Muhammed never was, and never will be. In fact, this is true of ALL the prophets save perhaps Adam. They were lesser Muslims because they did not have free will. They could not disobey Allah. You know, they were no better than angels, and remember, angels had to bow down to Adam. So why, why, WHY does the Qur'an talk about the prophets as if they were truly pious, submitting souls who should serve as examples to us? How can they teach us anything if they are so different from us? They are just angels in human flesh, obedient without a choice.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:31 pm <Go back to yourself and see how many things that you did not see and believe in. You beleive that you are given birth by your mom and dad. Did u see/remember when that happened? Why do you beleive your mom and the doctor when he looks at the your DNA and says this is your mom and that is your dad? So tell me PG, is everything you beleive in is what you saw for yourself? don't tell me that your mama told you, or science told you or people told you. Yes your have a freewill that you can ignore all what the people say. You don't have to beleive that you are born by human, you don't have to beleive that is a ROME, Moscow and Mogadishu until you saw them for yourself. As a matter of fact don't take anything on anybody's words, go and see for yourself then beleive. Nobody is forcing you. if you do that, the only thing people will do is to think that you are lunitic.> I can't believe how stupid that is. Let me point out several problems with your "analogy": 1) You are right, I don't have to believe what people tell me: If my mother tells me she's my mother, I don't have to believe her, since I didn't see my own birth. BUT, and this is a big BUT, will my mother then throw me in Hell for my disbelief? No, she'll say, "You are right macaanto, you didn't see me give birth to you. But why else would I take care of you and call you my daughter? Why do you resemble me so much? Why do other people say that you are my daughter? And you know what, I'll give you proof. I'll tell my doctor to run a blood test, a DNA analysis, I'll show you your birth certificate, and pictures of me holding you when you were born". If I still insist on not believing her (maybe the pictures weren't of me, etc.), she might be surprised, or hurt or angry, but she would never damn me to eternal flames!!! Secondly, there's something known as empirical proof: It's true, I have never been to Moscow. But I CAN go there to check. That's the difference between Moscow and God: I can check if Moscow exists, I can't check if God exists. Or what if I couldn't check if Moscow existed? Then I can say, "you know, I don't have conclusive proof that Moscow exists, so I'll not believe in it for now." Is Moscow going to burn me in Hell for not believing that it exists? NO! At most, other people would think I was a lunatic, but that's okay. Other people think I am a lunatic for not believing in Ra, Krishna, QuetzalCoatl, Allah, Yahweh, aliens, and ESP. Other people think you are a lunatic for not believing in fairies and Santa Claus. Does that mean you are a lunatic? Thirdly, I have no reason to believe my mother is not my mother: there's no contradictory evidence, no unanswered questions. There's no other woman saying that she's my mother, and I have been living with an imposter. My mother never gave me reason to doubt her word, and never deliberately told me an important lie. That's a good reason to believe my mother is my mother. Same goes for Moscow: I have never met someone claiming that Moscow is a myth, or that it's not Moscow but something else, or that it's not in Russia but Greenland. I have never heard of a group of people who murder you if you disbelieve in the existance of Moscow. Or people who say only they can see Moscow but that the rest of us have to have "faith" to believe that Moscow exists. Do you understand? There's no evidence to make me conclude that Moscow is not real. If I heard that it was built on clouds, or that it's made of candy, or that it's invisible to bad people--If I heard any of this, I might suspect that Moscow is just another Atlantis. But nobody seems to be disputing that Moscow is a city in Russia made of brick that I can go see if I want. Nobody is trying to sell me their version of Moscow, and telling me that everybody else's version is false. When you can figure that out, then I will consider you on the way to becoming an adult human being.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:34 pm The above post is intended for Nour.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:43 pm <if you see yourself in the mirror would you deny what you see and say that is not me?> I wouldn't, but there are people who don't recognize their own reflection. They have a mental disorder. On the other hand, there are people who think there is an invisible, immaterial, incorporeal, intangible Superbeing that created the Universe, all the beautiful stars, and us--and is obsessed with our sex lives. They also have a mental disorder. It's called religious faith :-) I am a recovering victim.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:04 pm "ANON and Nour, You both misunderstood me. I am saying that free-will is about obedience to Allah's will, not belief. Satan's KNOWS there's Allah, but he still CHOOSES to disobey (not disbelief) Him. Why? Because he has the choice: For example, I know my parents are my parents, and I know they exist, but I can still disobey them. That's free-will." that is exactly what i have been saying. ;-). satan knows and does not deny God, but he disobied. satan can not deny Allah's existence. ;-) "Saying that free-choice has to do with believing in God is a contradiction" most atheists say they don't believe in God because they can not see Him. they say it is impossible for them to believe in God since He does not let them see His existence. They claim they have no free choice because they can't Him. ;-). "of the fact that Adam and Eve, even though they knew God existed, still CHOSE to disobey him." yes, they had a choice, but angels never disobey God ever since He created and they know His existence. they had no choice. ;-) "What I am saying is that that would be a far fairer and more sensible way to "do business" if God existed: He lets everyone know that He exists" some people said it would have been nice if God came down and performed miracle in front them----so they would believe in Him. it would have been nice, but it did not happened the way you wanted, but the reality is that it would have been unfair if it was imposible to believe in God with Him showing Himself to us. ;-) "but punishes those who don't OBEY him. Not those who don't believe in Him." He forgives and panishes those who DISOBEY HIM while believing in Him, but He never forgivess those who deny Him (His existence) ;-) "As for people still insisting that they don't believe what they see, that's just dumb: how many people insist that they don't believe in the sun? Or the moon? Other people? I don't need a stupid excuse like "I don't believe you exist" to disobey my parents! I can just disobey them by not doing what they say... Then I really would deserve whatever punishment I received. But if my parents never showed themselves to me, never directly told me what to do, but still insisted I believe in and obey them, then what kind of parents would they be? How hard can that be to understand???" as for people still insisting that they don't believe in Allah because they can't see Him while they can't disprove His existence, that is just dumb. ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:50 pm --------<the prophets are protected and were chosen to only obey; they would not disobey orders of Allah. prophets are special human being and are given the tools-----some talked with God and others are given first hand knowledge of Allah. ordinarry human being like you and i can not be like them and that is not what we are expected to be; we are expected to accept of their message. their only job was to deliver message and be teachers. ;-)>-------- "Oh my my. So you are saying that Muhammed, for example, did not have free will. He could not disbelieve or disobey Allah." yes, i'm saying muhammad could not disbelieve in Allah and didn't disobey Allah. he was protected. ;-) "Okay, so let me just point out one teeny little problem with your thesis." okay if you can. ;-) "First though, let's see, why was Adam superior to the angels?" he had a free choice and was taught things the angels didn't know. ;-) "Because he was smarter?" No." wrong. ;-). he was smarter-----he was taught things they didn't know. "Prettier? Nope." lol "More powerful? Uh-uh." lol "Adam was superior to the angels because he had FREEWILL." he knew what they didn't know. ;-) "God wasn't satisfied with obedient" that is funny. ;-) "unquestioning automotons" lol "He wanted obedience that comes from free choice." wanted! He has no want or need, pragmaticgal. ;-) "There's another reason in the Qur'an (that he knew the names of things)" pingo. ;-) "but it's so prosperous" lol "I won't consider it here." no kidding. ;-) "Can you just imagine a teacher teaching something to one student, and then chastising all the others because they didn't know?" i thought you said "God wasn't satisfied with obedient" are the angels getting chastisments for not knowing? ;-) "So okay, Adam is superior than angels because he had freewill." he knew thing things they didnt' know too. ;-) "Muhammed had no free-will." who said he didn't? ;-). "But you have free-will." you don't? ;-) "Therefore, wait for it..." okay. ;-) "YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO MUHAMMED BECAUSE YOU HAVE FREEWILL!!!" what is the punch line? you disappointed me, pragmaticgal.! i wanted to laugh. "That's right ANON--You, poor struggling sinner, are a better Muslim than Muhammed" that is very funny. ;-) "and you know why?" indulge me ;-) "Because you CHOSE to obey God." and you didn't, right? ;-) "Muhammed didn't choose, he was chosen." he was chosen and did obey. ;-) "He didn't believe out of faith" what! ;-). he had no faith! ;-) "he believed because Gabriel was squeezing the breath out of him" and satan is squeezing the breath out of you to disbelieve in Allah, right? no, wait....... there is no such thing as the devil made me do it, right? ;-) "and demanding that he "Read! In the name of your Lord!" and didn't Allah ask to recite names, but they didn't know? ;-) "You were right." lol "Muhammed had no choice." says who? you, right? ;-) "What sane human being can disobey an overpowering and threatening presence like Gabriel?" satan who saw in his eyes more powerful being than jibril. ;-) "What's more Muhammed had ample opportunity to re-inforce his belief: Each time Gabriel told him new verses of the Qur'an, he was a palpable, terrifying force. When Muhammed was a kid two angels slit his chest open and removed black "meat" from his heart that's supposed to represent evil; He's threatened within the Qur'an that if he makes up anything, he will be killed. And then there's the journey on Laylatul Qadr: Muhammed saw angels, prophets, Hell and Heaven. He couldn't help but believe in God." and you forgot that God punished him for killing his father before he was born and his mother as an infant, right? ;-) "But YOU, you are different." how about you? ;-) "You truly submit as a "willing soul"." and you truly deny as a "unwilling soul"? ;-) "No body showed you angels or Hell or Heaven. Therefore, you are a Muslim in a way Muhammed never was, and never will be." lol "In fact, this is true of ALL the prophets save perhaps Adam. They were lesser Muslims because they did not have free will. They could not disobey Allah. You know, they were no better than angels, and remember, angels had to bow down to Adam." fyi, when adam disobied, he was no prophet. he had free-will before and after. ;-) "So why, why, WHY does the Qur'an talk about the prophets as if they were truly pious, submitting souls who should serve as examples to us? How can they teach us anything if they are so different from us? They are just angels in human flesh, obedient without a choice." they were chosen human being and had free-will to do things, but they were protected and they were not angels. the prophets made mistakes (not sins). angels don't do that. jibril was different than prophets he was to deliver the message-----so much so that sometimes he had to take the form of a human being and other times other form. there were times when the prophet and his followers received teachings from jibril in the form of human being. the prophet knew it, but was he fearing? ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:31 pm --------<if you see yourself in the mirror would you deny what you see and say that is not me?>------ "I wouldn't, but there are people who don't recognize their own reflection. They have a mental disorder. On the other hand, there are people who think there is an invisible, immaterial, incorporeal, intangible Superbeing that created the Universe, all the beautiful stars, and us--and is obsessed with our sex lives. They also have a mental disorder." pragmaticfal, are you talking about the believers in the extraterrestrail (aliens) or the the believers in the IPF----the invisible pink fluctuation-----the bacteria, the microorganisms, microbes, germs? i read it on this thread---- someone posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 07:19 pm. i loved reading it. ;-) "It's called religious faith :-) I am a recovering victim." who said atheism is not a faith and the atheists don't have religious faith? ;-)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:02 pm Think and Answer: 1. How many branches are there to being immaculate? 2. If prophets were not free from sin, what would happen? 3. What is the truth of the station of immaculateness? 4. Other than the examples given here, can you point out another example of someone who is immaculate in relation to another group? 5. Is the immaculateness of the prophets coercive or a result of free will? Why? WHY ARE THE PROPHETS FREE OF SIN AND ERROR: Without doubt, more important than anything else, a prophet must attract the trust of the general public in such a way that his words contain no possibility of being lies or erroneous, otherwise, his position of leadership will be a shaky one. If they are not immaculate, using the excuse that the prophets have erred, people who seek the truth from what they say will begin to doubt their invitation. It will not be accepted, or, at least, their words will not be accepted with all of their hearts. This reason which can be called 'trustworthiness' is one of the most important reasons for their being immaculate. In other words, how is it possible that God give His Commands for His people to follow a person who is not truthful for if this person were to err or sin, people would not follow him. If they do, they have erred and if they do not, they have weakened his position of leadership, in particular, since the position of the leadership of the prophets completely differs with the leadership of others for people receive their entire program of life from the prophets. Obey God and obey the Prophet. Saying that the command for Absolute obedience is because the Prophet is immaculate as well as 'being charged with authority'. The pure leaders like the Holy Prophet are referred to as 'being charged with authority'. If not, God would never give the command to unconditional obedience to them. Another way of proving the immaculateness of the Holy Prophet in relation to any sin is that any factor of sin is condemned to defeat within the very being of the Holy Prophet. The explanation of this is: when we turn to ourselves, we see that we, too, are immaculate in relation to some sins or evil or unacceptable deeds. Note the following examples: Can you find an intelligent person who thinks about eating fire or trash or filth? Can you find an intelligent person who will walk naked through the streets and bazaars? Clearly not. If we saw such deeds from someone, we will be assured of the fact that he is no longer normal and has become insane because an intelligent person would never do these things. When we analyze such behavior, we see that the ugliness of such deeds is so clear that an intelligent person would never even consider them. It is here that we can imagine what this short phrase means and say that every intelligent and healthy person is 'free of' unacceptable deeds. From this stage, we take a step further. We see some people who are free from unacceptable deeds. For instance, an aware physician and expert who knows the various kinds of microbes well is never prepared to drink the polluted water of the dirty clothes of a person who has one of the most dangerous contagious diseases whereas an illiterate person, perhaps, would be indifferent to such a thing. With another simple example, we reach the point that however much the level of a person rises in the area of awareness, they are less likely to do evil or ugly deeds. Taking into consideration that if a person' s faith and awareness were to rise and have so much faith in God and His court of justice, so that everything that he sees is present before his eyes, such a person will be free of all sin and every ugly deed in relation to him, like walking naked through the streets, will be in our eyes only. For such a person, the property of something forbidden is just like the flames of fire, and just like we do not put fire in our mouths, he does not put something which is forbidden into his mouth. We can then conclude that the prophets, because of the extraordinary knowledge, awareness and faith which they have, tame the motives of sin and the most exciting factors causing sin will not prevail upon his intellect and faith. This is why we say that the prophets are immaculate; they are insured against sin. How can the station of purity be an honor? Some people who do not understand the meaning of purity and the factors of immaculateness and being free from sin are not aware of the fact that if God prevents one from sin and destroys the factors which cause sin, this will not be an honor for that person! This is coercive purity and therefore is not considered to be a virtue. But with the discussion which he had above, this issue is very clear. The freedom of the prophets from sin in no sense is a coercive one. Rather, it is born from their strong faith and absolute certainty, their awareness and extraordinary knowledge and this is the greatest honor for them. If an aware physician takes care of and treats a person with the worst of diseases, is this a sign of his being forced to do so? If such a person were to follow the rules of health, would this be considered to be a virtue? If a person, a lawyer, were to take the disgraceful considerations into effect of a dreadful crime and try to prevent it, is this a virtue? Thus, we reach this conclusion that the fact that the prophets are free from sin is both one of their own choice and great honor for them.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:28 pm THE NEED FOR THE PROPHETS TO PRESENT THE LAW: The need for the existence of the prophets from the two dimensions of learning and training and the need to know the social laws and the important role of the prophets in this area: We know that the greatest privilege of life for the human being, which is the factor for all of the progress in all of the various areas of life, is a dynamic social encounter. Most certainly, if human beings lived apart from each other, they would still be like the human beings in the Stone Age from the point of view of knowledge and civilization. Yes. It is the united efforts and endeavors which light the lamp of culture and civilization. It is united efforts and endeavors which are the source and origin for all of these scientific discoveries. As an example, if we consider the journey to the moon, we see that this was not the result of the work of one or several scientists. Rather, it has been the result of the efforts of millions of scholars over thousands of years and the experiences of scholars gained through group living and then this knowledge reached the point where we find it today. If a skilled physician in our age succeeds to transplant the living heart of a human being from the body of a dead person into the body of another person and save him from certain death, this has been made possible from the results of the experiences of thousands of physicians and surgeons throughout history which, by means of teachers, has been transferred to their students. But, of course, social life, on the other hand, does present difficulties in the conflicts which arise between the rights and interests of human beings with each other, resulting sometimes in aggression and even war. It is here that the need exists for law, programming and clear rules? Laws can solve three great problems for us. 1. Laws define the duties of each individual in relation to society. Social duties are clarified and talents are coordinated which blossom among human beings. 2. Laws co-ordinate the methods to be used to carry out one's responsibility by every individual. 3. Laws prevent the aggression of individuals against the rights of each other; they prevent chaos and conflicts between individuals and groups and, when necessary, punishments are provided for aggressors. Who is the best lawgiver? Now we have to see what person is best to bring laws which meet the human being's needs in such a way that all three principles mentioned above are followed and included as well as clarifying the limits, duties and rights of the individual and society so that the best system be put to use and aggression be prevented. Allow us to give a simple example here. Human society can be compared to a great train, and the leaden or rulers to a locomotive, which causes this human society to move towards a destination. The laws are like the rails or tracks which provide the line to be followed by this train to a clear destination, a line which moves throughout twists and turns. It is clear that a good train must have the following conditions: *The land which the train moves through must have sufficient strength for the greatest extent of pressure. *The distance between the two tracks or rails must be carefully coordinated with the wheels of the locomotive as well as the walls of tunnels and the heights of the tunnels must suit the highest level of the trains. *The ups and downs must not be so sharp that they an beyond the power of the brakes of the train. *The possibility of landslides or floods along the way which the train moves must be carefully studied so that the train can pass through that area under all conditions. Noting these examples, we return to human society. A lawgiver who wants to give the best laws for human beings must have the following qualities: 1. Know the human species in a perfect and total way and be aware of all of their instincts, feelings, needs and difficulties. 2. All of the praiseworthy qualities and talents which exist in a human being should be taken into consideration and laws should be made use of for their blossoming. 3. The events and accidents which are possible to occur should be foreseen, as well as the necessary precaution taken. 4. Such a lawgiver should have no particular interests in society so that in providing the laws, his thoughts turn upon his own interests or his family or his social group. 5. This lawgiver must allow human beings the possibility to benefit from all of the advances made as well as to learn from the deviations. 6. This lawgiver must, at the maximum, be free from error, mistakes and forgetfulness. 7. Finally, this lawgiver must have such power that no position or power in society may intimidate him and he not fear anyone. At the same time, he must be very kind and merciful. In what person have these conditions been gathered? Can a human being be the best law giver? Has anyone understood the human being in a complete way to date? A famous scholar in our age has written a book about the human being calling it, Man: The Unknown Creature. Have the human spirit, instincts and feelings been completely known? Are the physical, spiritual and emotional needs of the human being clear for a person? Can someone be found in the midst of average people who has no special benefits or interests in society? Do you know of any human being among ordinary people who is free from error and sin and who has the awareness of all of the issues of life and individual human beings and society? Thus, other than God and those who received the Divine revelation, there can never be a good and perfect lawgiver. In this way, we must conclude that God Who created the human being to reach perfection, must send someone as a guide to place the laws of heaven at the disposal of the human being. It is clear that at the time when people know that laws are the laws of God, they will put them into practice with more credibility and certainty. In other words, this awareness is a valuable guarantee of those laws. It is important to note the following that the system of creation is itself a living witness for the existence of the Divine prophets and their mission. The reason is this: a short glance at this wonderous system of existence shows us that nothing of the needs of creatures is hidden from His Mercy. For instance, if He gives us eyes with which to see, He has also given these eyes, lids and lashes so that they are protected and so that the light which enters is regulated and the eye is not harmed. The eye has a radius which can see in several directions without the turning of the head. Is it possible that God Who so met the needs of the human being not provide a leader and a guide who is pure and trustworthy to bring His revelation? A famous philosopher, Abu Ali Sina (Avicenna) in his famous book Shifa' says, "The needs of the human being for the sending of the prophets for the survival of the human species and their moving towards perfection is greater than their need for lashes, eyebrows and the arch of the foot; thus, is it possible for Him to provide those and not these?"
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:32 pm HOW SPENDID ARE GOD'S QUALITIES! His Qualities: Know that to the same extent that realizing the existence of God through studying the secrets of the created world is easy, learning of His Qualities is difficult and requires a great deal of care and caution. You probably wonder why. The reason for this is clear because God does not resemble anything we have ever seen or heard. Thus the first condition to recognize God's Qualities is to negate all of the qualities of creatures, that is, not comparing Him to any limited creature of the world of nature. It is here that our task becomes difficult because we have grown up in the heart of this nature. Our contact has been with nature. We have become familiar with it. Thus we are inclined to compare everything with it. In other words, whatever we have seen has had a material form. Some of the creatures which have a determined time and place, have a special dimension and form. Because of this, conceiving of a God Who neither has eyes, nor time, nor place, but, at the same time, He overlooks all times and all places and is unlimited from all points of view, is a difficult task. That is, it requires that steps be taken along this way with great care. But it is necessary to remind ourselves here of this point that we can never come to know God's Essence and we should not expect that we could because such an expectation is like expecting to contain the endless seas in a glass or expect that a child, which is developing in its mother's womb, know about all of the world outside of the womb. Is this possible? It is here that such a small blunder will cause a person to fall tens of kilometers from the main way of coming to know God and become waylaid in crags of idol worship and the worship of creatures. Note with care that, in summary, we must be conscious of never comparing God's Qualities with the qualities of creatures. The Qualities of Majesty and Beauty We most often divide God's Qualities into two groups: those Qualities which God has and those Qualities which God is free from. And now, this question arises as to how many Qualities God's Essence has. The answer is: On the one hand, God's Qualities are endless and unlimited and, on the other hand, they can be summarized in one Quality because all of the Qualities of Go d can be summarized in the following: The Essence of God is an essence which is infinite from all points of view and it contains all perfections. From the point of view of Qualities which God does not contain, they can be summarized in the following sentence. The Essence of God is not imperfect from any point of view. But from another angle, as perfections and imperfections have various levels, that is, we can conceive of endless perfections and endless imperfections, thus, it can be said that God is the infinite of demonstrated Qualities and infinite negation of Qualities because whatever perfection you can imagine, He has and whatever imperfection you can imagine, He is free of. Thus the demonstrated and negation of Qualities of God are unlimited. The Most Well-Known Qualities of God The most famous demonstrated Qualities of God can be summarized in the following: 1. God is the 'Knower' ('Alim): He knows all things. 2. God is Powerful (Qadir): He has ability over all things. 3. God is the Living because something which is living has wisdom, power and because God is Wise and Powerful, thus He is Living. 4. God is the Willer (Mur'id), that is, He has a Will power and He is not obliged in His work and whatever He does, has a goal and wisdom and even the smallest thing in the universe does not lack a philosophy and a goal. 5. God is Perceiving (Mudrek), that is, He understands and perceives all things. He sees everything; he hears all things and He is aware of all things. 6. God is Primordial and Eternal (Qadim and Azali), that is, He always was and His existence has no beginning because He always boils from His inner Essence and because of this, He is primordial and eternal because a person whose being is from he himself has no non-existence or annihilation. 7. God is the Speaker (Mutakalim), that is, he can create waves in the atmosphere and speak to His Prophet, not that God has a tongue or lips or a larynx. 8. God is Truthful (Sadiq), that is, whatever He says is the Truth and is equivalent to reality because lying comes from ignorance or from weakness and a lack of power and it is impossible for God Who is Knowing and Powerful, to lie. * * * And the most well-known negation of Qualities of God are: 1. He is not a composite. That is, He does not have mixed elements because in this case, He would be in need of other elements, whereas, He is in need of nothing. 2. God is not a body because every body is limited, unstable and accepts annihilation. 3. God is not visible. That is, He cannot be seen because if He could be seen, He would be a body, limited and accepting annihilation. 4. God has no place because He is not a body to require a place. 5. God has no partner because if He had a partner, He would have to be a limited creature because two non-limited, from every point of view, is not possible and in addition, the unity of law of this world shows His Oneness. 6. His Qualities are exactly like His Essence. 7. God is Needless and Self-sufficient. He is rich and containing everything because an endless being from the point of view of knowledge, power and all things has no deficiences. The Holy Quran says, "There is nothing like unto Him." (42:11)
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:34 pm THE GREATEST MIRACLE OF THE PROPHET OF ISLAM Eternal Miracle All scholars of Islam believe that the Quran is the greatest miracle of the Prophet of Islam. When we say the most superior, it is because, in the first place, the Quran is not an intellectual miracle but rather has to do with the spirit and intellect of the people and secondly, it is eternal and everlasting and third, it is a miracle which has cried out for 14 centuries. It says, "If you do not believe that this is a Book of God, bring one like it." This invitation to an equivalent or something like it or challenge has appeared several times in the Holy Quran. In one place it says, "Say: If the whole of humanity and jinn were to gather together to produce the life of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.." (17:88) In another place, it has made the condition for the bringing of something like it even more easy. It says, "Bring ten suras forged like unto it and call to your aid whomever you can other than God if you speak the truth." (11:13) "If they (your false gods) answer not your (call) know that this Revelation is sent down (replete) with the knowledge. of God..." (11:14) "And if you are in doubt about that which We have revealed to Our Servant, then bring a surah like it and call your witnesses, other than God, if you are truthful." (2:23) In the next verse, it directly states, "But if you do not and you shall never do - guard yourselves against the fire." (2:24) These continuous and successive invitations to challenge the Quran show that the Holy Prophet placed the greatest of emphasis and importance upon the miracle of the Quran even though many other miracles have been recorded about the Prophet and have appeared in books on Islamic history. As the Holy Quran is a living miracle, we will, in this discussion, give greater emphasis to it. * * * * * How they have remained impotent in face of this challenge It is interesting that the Holy Quran places the greatest emphasis upon inviting the opponents to the arena and with stimulating comparisons, it challenges them to enter the arena so that no excuse remain for anyone. Words like, "If you speak the truth. ..", "You can never do so...", "Even if you seek help from all of humanity...", "Bring at least one verse like it...", "If you become a kafir, a flaming fire is awaiting you..." speak of this truth. These are all on one side. On the other side, the struggle of the Holy Prophet with the opponents was not a simple struggle, because Islam not only endangered their religion which they firmly supported, but also endangered their economic, political interests and even their very existence. In other words, the progress and influence of Islam caused all of the lives to be turned upside down. Thus, they were obliged to come to the arena with all of their power and force. No matter what the cost, in order to disarm the Holy Prophet, they would have to bring a verse like a verse of the Holy Quran so that they could no longer rely on the Quran as a miracle, and everyone who believed in it would become defective and it would become a document for proving their truth. They invited all of the Arabs who were learned scholars to help them but everytime that they tried to challenge the Holy Quran, they were defeated and they very readily retreated. The story of these events have been recorded in the history books. The Story of Walid ibn Mughayrah Among the people invited to this challenge was Walid ibn Mughayrah from the Bani Makhzum who was famous at that time among the Arabs for his literary abilities. They asked him to think about this challenge and to give his opinion about the miraculous verses of the Quran and its extraordinary influence. Walid asked the Holy Prophet to recite a verse of the Holy Quran for him. The Holy Prophet recited a verse from Surah Ha Mim Sujdah. This verse caused such excitement in Walid that he, without thinking, arose from his place and he left the group of the Bani Makhzum which had been formed, saying, "I swear to God that I have heard words from Muhammad which neither resembled the words of human beings nor the fairies. "His words have a special tone and a particular beauty. They are like a branch of a tree which bears a great deal of fruit; they are words which are victorious over all things and nothing will be victorious over them." These words caused the Quraysh to whisper among themselves, "Walid has lost his heart to Muhammad." Abu Jahl, in a state of anxiety, went to his home and told him what the Quraysh were saying. He invited him to a meeting of theirs. Walid went to their group and said, "Do you think Muhammad is crazy? Have you seen the effects of insanity in him?" Those who were present said, "No." "Do you think that he is a liar? Was he not famous to date among you for his truthfulness and his trustworthiness? Did you not call him a truthful and trustworthy person?" Some of the leaders of the Quraysh said, "Then what should we call him, what should we relate him to?" Walid thought a bit and then said, "He is a magician." Even though they tried to turn the common people away from the Quran, which they were attracted to, this commentary of 'magic' was itself living proof of the extraordinary attraction of the Holy Quran and they called this attraction, bewitchment' while it had nothing to do with magic. It was because of this that the Quraysh spread this opinion everywhere that Muhammad is a magician and these verses are his magic, keep away from him and try not to listen to what he is saying. But in spite of all of their efforts and endeavors, their plan had no effect. The thirsty were everywhere and plentiful. They had pure hearts and, group by group, they joined the Quran. They drank of the pure water of the heavenly message and the enemy, defeated, retreated. The Holy Quran, today, challenges all of the people of the world and invites them to struggle against it. It cries out, "If you doubt the truth of these verses and you think that it is born of human thought, bring its like. O scholars, philosophers and literary persons, writers from whatever nation or people!" We also know that the enemies of Islam, in particular, Christian priests, who know Islam to be a revolutionary school, full of meaning, a strong competitor and a danger to it, every year spend millions of dollars to spread anti-Islamic propaganda. They are active in Islamic countries under the cover of culture, science and health. What would happen if they made the way closer, if they were to invite Arab-Christian scholars, poets, writers and philosophers to write verses like the verses of the Holy Quran to silence the Muslims? It is clear that if such a thing were possible, at whatever the cost, they would do so. The very fact that they are unable to do so is a proof before the opponents and proof of the miracle of the Quran.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:37 pm ANOTHER PROOF OF THE RIGHTFULNESS OF THE PROPHET OF ISLAM In order to understand the truth of the invitation of a claimant to prophethood, and his truthfulness or falsity, we have other ways in addition to the question of his miracles and this can be another living proof of the way to reach the truth which is to study the following: 1. The moral personality and social background 2. The conditions which ruled in the area of the invitation. 3. The conditions of the time. 4. The content of the invitation. 5. The programs and means and principles and goal. 6. An evaluation of the effects of the invitation upon the area or environment. 7. An evaluation of the faith and self-sacrifices of the invitee in relation to the goal. 8. The non-compromise with deviated suggestions. 9. The speed of the effects in public opinion. 10. A study of the faithful and understanding what group they come from. If we, in truth, study these ten subjects in relation to every claimant and if we make a file about them, we can very easily understand the truth. * * * * * Noting that which has been said above, we present a very brief study of the above issues in relation to the person of the Holy Prophet, even though each one of these items requires a separate study of its own. 1. That which is among the particularities of the morality of the Prophet of Islam in the midst of his social activities, according to the histories written by his friends and enemies, is clear to us that he was so pure and correct that even in the Age of Ignorance he was given the title of 'trustworthy'. History says, "When he wanted to migrate to Madinah, he assigned 'Ali, peace be upon him, the task of giving back the trusts which people had placed with him." His courage, perseverance and good conduct, his quickness and his manliness, his forgiveness in war and peace can be seen, in particular, his command of forgiveness for the people of Makkah after the victory over this city and the surrender of the blood-thirsty enemies of Islam is clear and is clear evidence of his character. * * * * * 2. We all know that normal, average individuals even geniuses - take on the color of their environment, whether they want to or not, of course, to a lesser or greater degree. Now let us think that a person who lived for 40 years in the midst of ignorance, idol worship, in an environment which was formed by the weave of the culture of the people with multitheism and superstition. How is it possible that the people arise to establish pure monotheism and struggle against all forms of multitheism? How is it possible that scientific analyses develop in an environment of ignorance? Can one believe that without divine intervention such a wonderous phenomenon would occur? * * * * * 3. It must be seen if the manifestation of a prophet took place in every age and era when the world was going through the Middle Ages, the age of despotism, discrimination, oppressive racial and class superiority? Perhaps we should read the words of Hadrat 'Ali, who bore witness to the age before and after the appearance of Islam. He says, "God sent the Holy Prophet during a time when the people of the world were lost and led astray; their intellects were at the disposal of their whims and lusts; their sense of honor was destroyed; the oppression of ignorance had led them astray and in the midst of ignorance and anxiety, they were lost." (The Nahj al-Balaghah, Sermon 91). Now think about the precepts which the slogans of equality of human beings, the elimination of racial discrimination and class distinction had in relation to the situation of that time. "Surely the believers are brothers." * * * * * 4. The content of his invitation brought unity in all areas, the elimination of oppressive privileges, the unity of humanity, a struggle with oppression, a plan for the rule of the world, defense of the deprived and the acceptance of piety and trustworthiness as the best criteria for human values. 5. In the area of plans to be implemented, permission was never given to make use of the concept that the goal is a means to justify the end in order to attain the sacred goals but rather sought out sacred means. He directly would say, "And let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably..." (5:9) His commands to keep to moral principles even in the midst of war, snot to attack civilians, not cutting down the forests and date palms, not polluting the drinking water of the enemy, good treatment of the prisoners of war are clear signs of this truth. * * * * * 6. The effects of his invitation upon the environment was so great that the enemies were even afraid of people going near the Prophet because they saw that his attraction and influence was extraordinary. Sometimes they raised such a commotion when he spoke that the people could not hear what he was saying, to prevent his words from entering their thirsty hearts. Because of this, and to cover over the truth of what he was saying, they called him 'bewitched' and his words, 'bewitchment'. This in itself was an admittance of the strange effects of the invitation of the Holy Prophet. * * * * * 7. An evaluation of his self-sacrifice upon the way of his invitation shows that he, more than any other person, was a believer in and faithful to the precepts which he brought. He stood in some of the battlefields where those who ha d recently accepted Islam fled. He paid no attention to the enemy who often threatened him in every way possible. He retained his beliefs and never showed weakness or doubt. * * * * * 8. Several times they tried to kill him on the excuse that he compromised with the deviates, but he never surrendered. He would say, "If you give me the sun in one hand and the moon in another and all of the planets and stars be under my dominion, I will never give up my goal and surrender." * * * * * 9. Not only was the effect of his invitation in public opinion wonderous, the speed by which it happened was also extraordinary. Those who have studied the books of western experts on the Middle East and on Islam, are all amazed by the speed of the spread of Islam. For example, three of the most famous ones of the West who wrote, The History of Arab Civilization and Its Basis in the East, have said that this must be admitted. They say, "With all of the efforts for the understanding of the speedy progress of Islam in the world, the fact that in less than a century it was able to spread to most parts of the known world, is still a great puzzle." Yes. It is a puzzle that Islam was able to penetrate into the hearts of millions of people with such speed, to absorp civilizations and bring about new civilizations. * * * * * 10. Finally, we reach the point that the enemies were a group of kufr leaders, oppressors and wealthy who only sought their own self-interests whereas those who found faith were most often the pure-hearted youth, from among the large group of the abased who longed for the truth and were even slaves, individuals who other than pure hearts, had no capital and who were thirsty for the truth. From the totality of this study, which is a very extensive one, we can well conclude that this was a divine invitiation, an invitation which flowed from something beyond nature, from the great Creator for the salvation of the human being from corruption and ignorance, multitheism, oppression and injustice.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:39 pm AN EXAMPLE OF THE TRIAL OF THE DAY OF JUDGMENT IS WITHIN YOU Because the issue of life after death and the great trial of the Resurrection seems to be a new point for a human being who is imprisoned in this limited world, God gives a small example of that Trial in this very world, which is called the sense of conscience. But recall that we have said that this is but a small example of the real thing. Let us express this issue in more clear terms: A human being is tried in several courts for the sins that he or she commits. The first Court is that very normal one of humanity, including all of its deficiences and ineffectivenesses. Even if the existence of this normal court has a striking effect in the reducing of the punishment, but the basis of this court is such that it never can be expected that complete justice be given. The reason for this is that if incorrect laws and unrighteous judges find their way into them, the result is obvious - bribery, collusion, special relations, political games and thousands of other problems to make it so ineffective that it must be said its non-existence is better than its being because its existence allows for the evil goals of the interested parties. If its laws are just and its judges are aware and with piety, there are still many things which can cause the ineffectiveness because they are very skilled at hiding themselves. Or else so fix the file and pages in the court so that the hands of the judge are tied and the law is then made ineffective. The second court, which is more precise and exact, is the Court of Retribution of Deeds. Our deeds have an effect which, over a short period of time, or in the long run, will take hold of us. Even though this may not be a general rule, it is true for most people. We have seen political rules which are based on oppression; they did whatever they wanted to do, but, finally, they fell into that very trap which they ha d ma de for themselves. The reaction to their deeds took hold of them. They were destroyed and only curses remain for them. Because the retribution for deeds is the very relation between cause and effect and objective-subjective ties, there are few people who can flee from it by trying to cover over their deeds. The only ineffectiveness of this court is that it is not universal, complete and common to all and because of this, it does not make us needless of the Great Judgment of the Resurrection. * * * * * The third court which is more precise and exact is the court of the conscience. In truth, just as the constellations and the planets have such a wonderous sense of order, on a much smaller scale, it is summarized in the heart of an atom, we can say that the Court of Judgment also has a small model in our inner being. Within the being of the human being, there is a mystery which the philosophers call the 'practical intellect', the Holy Quran calls the 'nafs lawwamah', the reproaching soul and today we interpret as meaning the conscience. Just as good or evil deeds may be performed by a human being, this court is quickly called to order, without any commotion, but very serious and based in principle. It begins the trial and the results of the trial are in the form of punishments or rewards which are psychological. Sometimes they so punish the criminal with a whip and torture his spirit that he openly welcomes death and he prefers it to life. He writes in his will, "I have attempted suicide to be free d from the pressure of my conscience."' Sometimes, before a good deed, a person is so encouraged that he or she senses a greater degree of calm and peace within the self, a peace which is indescribable and cannot be expressed in any words. This court has certain particularities: 1. In this court, the judge, the witnesses and the executor of the ruling, as well as the spectators, are all one person. It is that very energy of the conscience which bears witness, judges and then rolls up its sleeves and carries out the ruling. 2. As opposed to the normal courts which are full of chaos and commotion, and sometimes take several years to end, the trial of this court is like lightening and does not require a great deal of normal time. Of course, sometimes, in order to prove a document, there is the necessity for time for the crime and the curtains of negligence to be removed from the eyes of the heart, but after presenting the documents, the ruling is immediate and cannot be changed. 3. The ruling of this court is one phase. There is normally not any higher court to turn to. 4. This court does not just give punishments but it also gives rewards to those who know what their duty is. Thus it is a court in which both the good and the bad are tried and they receive punishment or rewards in accordance with their deeds. 5. The punishments of this court are not in the least bit similar to the punishments of other courts. On the outside, it would appear that there is no prison, no whip, no noose, not fire but sometimes they bum from within and are put in prison in the world in such a way that they prefer death to living in it. It is more narrow than a solitary confinement cell in a prison. At any rate, this court is not like the courts of this world but is similar to the Court of the Day of Judgment. The greatness of this court is so great that the Quran swears by it and is placed beside the Court of the Day of Judgment. It says, "By the Resurrection Day and by the self-reproaching soul Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers." (75:1-4) Of course, in spite of all of the conditions of this Court, because it is a court of this world, it does not make us needless of the Court of the Day of Judgment because: 1 . The realm of all consciences is not the same and it depends upon the realms of thought and discernment of each individual. 2. It can happen that a skilled, deceitful person can even fool his or her conscience. 3. Sometimes the cry of the consciences of sinners grows so weak that it cannot be heard. It is because of this that the need for the Court on the Day of Judgment becomes clear.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:41 pm BELIEF IN THE RESURRECTION GIVES MEANING TO LIFE If we take this world into consideration, without concerning ourselves with any other, it will be meaningless and empty. It is similar to the time of life when a foetus is not in this world, but is in the womb. A child who is within its mother's womb and who is imprisoned for months in this darkness and narrowness, if it were to have wisdom and intellect, and were to think about its being a foetus, it would be very surprised. Why am I imprisoned in this dark prison? Why do I have to move in water and blood? What result will the end of my life have? When did I come, why have I come? But if one is made aware of the fact that this is a preliminary stage, that their organs are formed here, they gain strength and become prepared for movement in this great world. After the passing of 9 months, it is freed, it moves into a world in which the sun shines, the moon reflects, green trees and streams of water flow and multiple benefits are attained; then it takes a deep breath and says, "Now I have understood the philosophy of my existence here." This is a preliminary stage,; this is a place to fly from; this is a class to pass through in order to move towards a great university. But if the life of a foetus is cut off from life in this world, everything will become dark and meaningless - a frightening prison with purposeless and harmful results. * * * * * This is exactly the point in the relation of life in this world with life after death. What is the point in our living more or less 70 years in this world? For a time, we are immature and inexperienced and by the time that we become mature, our life ends. For a time, we must study and work and by the time that we study and learn, we have reached old age. Why are we alive? To eat, wear clothes and sleep? And repeating this life day after day. Is this extensive universe, this expansive world and the storing of all of this knowledge and experience, all of these teachers and instructors, all repeated for eating, drinking and putting on clothes? It is here that the meaninglessness of this life will be clear to those who do not believe in the next world because they cannot reckon this small issue to be the goal of life and they do not believe in the next world either. Thus, it can be seen that a group of them try to commit suicide and end this absurd life. But if we believe that this world is a pasture for the after life or that it is a field which must be planted and then be taken as eternal life, that the world is a university in which we must learn and prepare ourselves for life in an eternal world, and that the world is a bridge which we must cross over, in this case, the world will not appear to be absurd and futile. Rather, it will be the beginning for an eternal life and no matter what efforts we make towards it, are small. Yes. Faith in the resurrection gives meaning to human life and frees a person from anxiety, worriedness and absurdity. * * * * * Faith in the Resurrection is an Important Factor in Training In addition to this, belief in the existence of a Court of the Day of Judgment is most effective in our daily lives. Assume that it were to be announced in a country that there will be no punishment for such and such a crime and no records will be kept, that people can, with a clear conscience, live the day as they so desire. They give the day off to the police, the army and security forces. They lock the doors of the courts and until the next day when life will begin as normal, no crimes will be punished. How do you think that society will spend that day? Belief in the resurrection, faith in the Day of Judgment, is in no way comparable to this world. The details of this Court is as follows: 1. It. is a trial in which explanations are ineffective, nor can relations rule over norms nor can false statements be presented to change the decision. 2. It is a court which does not need the facilities of this world and because of this, it is not extended to take more time; it is studied like lightening and a decision is given immediately. 3. It is a court in which the file or record of people is their own deeds, that is, their deeds will themselves be present and made know n by their actions in such a way that there is no way to deny them. 4. The witnesses in that court are his or her hands and feet, eyes and ears, tongue and skin and even the earth and the walls of a house in which there was sin or good deeds were committed will be there, witnesses which are like the effects of nature and cannot be denied. 5. This court is one whose Judge is God Almighty, God Who is Aware of all things, is Needless of all and Who is more Knowing than all others. 6. Beyond this, the punishments there are not contractual; it is our acts themselves which take form and will be alongside us and they will punish us or draw us into blessings. Faith in such a court takes a person to the point that Hadrat 'Ali says, "I swear to God that if I were to spend from night to the morning upon thorns and if my hands and feet were to be chained in the day and I were to be pulled through the streets and the bazaars, I am more willing to have this happen than to present myself to God's Court if I have committed an oppression against one of God's creatures or if I have usurped the rights of another." (Nahj al-Balaghah, Sermon 224) Can a person with such faith be deceived? It is faith in this Judgment that makes a human being place his brother's hand near the fire to burn when he has extended it into the public treasury. And when the brother screams in pain, he advises him, "You are screaming from the flame of a toy fire which is in the hands of human beings whereas you take your brother to a fire which is extremely frightening and which is lit by the anger of the Creator?" (Nahj al-Balaghah, Sermon 224) Can a person with such faith be deceived? Can one buy his conscience with bribery? Can he, with encouragement of threats, be made to deviate from the way of truth to the way of oppression? The Holy Quran says when the scroll of deeds is shown to sinners, they cry out, "Ah! Woe to us! What a book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great but takes account thereof!" (18:49) In this way, powerful waves of the sense of responsibility grows towards the spirit of the human being which controls the human being from deviating, going astray, committing oppression and aggression.
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:43 pm Think and Answer: 1. How is the heaven and the earth based upon justice? 2. Why has the human being been given free choice and will? 3. What would happen if a human being were to receive punishment immediately and directly for an evil deed in this world? 4. Why does the existence of the trial by conscience for our deeds not exempt us from the trial on the Day of Judgment? 5. What is the connection between the justice of the Creator and the Resurrection? THE RESURRECTION AND THE SCALES OF JUSTICE Noting the order of the world of creation, we see that it rules everywhere and that everything is in its place. In the body of the human being, this just order has been so carefully created that the smallest change or imbalance causes illness or death. As an example, in the structure of the eye, the heart and the brain, everything is in its place to the right amount and this justice and system is not only in the human body but exists in the entire world of creation. "Heaven and earth are ruled by justice." An atom is so small that millions of them can be placed on the edge of a pin. Think about how accurate and exact it must be that it can exist for millions of years. This is because of that very justice and accounting of electrons and protons which is so extraordinarily exact. No system, large or small, is beyond this order. Is the human being an exceptional creature? Does it mean that an individual must be free to commit whatever disorder, chaos, oppression and injustice that he or she in this great universe wants? Or is a point hidden here? Free Will or Choice The truth is that the human being has a basic difference with all other creatures of the universe and that is having free choice and will. Why did God create the human being free and give decision-making power so that he or she can do whatever he or she wants to do? The reason is that if he or she were not free, there would be no transformation and this great possibility is a guarantee of spiritual and ethical transformation. For instance, if a person is forced at sword point to help the deprived and to do good deeds for society, of course, this would be considered to be good deeds, but no ethical or human transformation would take place for the person who was forced to do this whereas if such is done with free will and choice, he would have taken steps towards an ethical, spiritual transformation. Thus the first condition for a spiritual and ethical transformation is that free will or freedom of choice must be present and available so that the human being can take this way by himself or herself and not through force. It must be like a natural force of the world of nature and if God has given this great gift to human beings, it is because of this very elevated goal. But this blessing is just like a flower along which grows thorns and it is the misuse by individuals of this freedom and pollution with oppression and corruption. Of course, as far as God is concerned, there would be nothing to prevent Him from punishing a human being with the worst kind of punishments if he were to commit oppression so that he would never consider doing it again, his hand be paralyzed, his eye lose sight, or his tongue not be able to speak. It is true that if this was the case, no one would misuse freedom and would never commit sins but this piety and devotness has a coercive side and would in no way be considered to be an honor for the human being but rather it would be because of the fear of immediate punishment. Thus, at any rate, the human being must be free and must be tested in various ways by the Creator, be free from immediate trial, other than in exceptional cases, to show the value of his or her self. Here one issue remains and that is that if justice were to remain here, and everyone were to choose a way, the law of justice of the Creator which rules over the world would be made defective. It is here that we are certain that a trial has been determined for a human being which he or she must be present at without any exception and receive his reward or punishment, and receive his or her share of the justice of the world. It is possible that Nimrods, Pharaohs, Ghengis Khans and Karuns spend a whole lifetime committing oppression and never be tried for this? Is it possible that criminals and good-doers are considered to be the same by God? "Shall We treat the people of faith like the people of sin? What is the matter with you? How do you judge?" (68:35-36) "Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness the same as those who corrupt the earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil the same as those who turn aside from the right?" (38:28) It is true that a group of the evil doers in this world receive punishment for their deeds or a share of it. It is true that the trial by the conscience is an important thing. And it is also true that the reaction to sin and oppression and the disgraceful unjust extend to include the human being. But if we note the issue with care, that none of these three things are total and universal and that every criminal or sinner is given the exact same amount of punishment for his or her crime or sin, there are many people who escape from any punishment for their deeds or they are not sufficiently punished. For these people, there must be a trial of justice, where every deed of good or evil. no matter how tiny or how great, is weighted and evaluated, otherwise the principle of justice will not be met. Thus the acceptance of the conscience of the Creator and His justice is equal with the acceptance of the resurrection and these two will never be separated.
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:48 am OOOH, My Allah. Grant us some hidaayah!!!! Aamiin
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 06:11 am PG You did go way off topic. first of all i did not ask you, what would be the result of your desbelief. (1). My point was that at least 90% of your daily life is based on faith. You go work, hoping you will get paid(in a week, 2 week or month) that is a faith. Do you ask for cash first then work? You go for grocery shoping and you will see container saying "Corn FLakes" you pay the money. You don't open and make sure if it, realy contains corn flakes cereal before you pay the money. You take the back seat in the bus having faith in the driver. You fly, same thing. In fact hundreds of millions of passengers around the clobe put their lives in the words of some airtraffic controller. Some minority people have no faith in flying and decided not to fly( you see, they have a choice). Some others don't drive(I heard my grandpa never allow himself to go on a car) And I can go on and on to show that almost all your life is based on faith. See I'm not talking about evidence to your faith now. I'm talking about the faith you have. According the way you live your life, you action are based on faith. but you don't realise that. You think you are faithless. Let us talk one thing at a time. I see you jumping up and down and mixing tones of different concepts and topics and getting emotional. 2. Let us talk about EVIDENCE now. I was disappointed with you when you only mention the EMPERICAL evidence. Questions: Is emperical knowledge reliable so that you can base you faith upon it? I'm guessing you smart and educated lady will know the answer. The answer is no. Reason is the defective senses. if it would not have been the defective senses, Steven Spillberg(I'm not sure about the spelling) will not have made millions of dollars in Jurasic Park, and Indepedence Day. Magicians would not entertain us with beautiful ladies cut into halves and then put togather. Then how can you trust your emperical knowlegde as the only source of knowing the truth?. If all what you see is the way they appear then, you must think the dinasourse in Jurasic Park was real. if you don't beleive in that dinasource, then your are lying when you said that I will believe in Allah if I see it. You will say this is not true it's just like that dinasource animated by some film crews. Allah says in the Quran. "14: Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, 15:They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery" Let along People have no choice to disbelieve Allah, they in fact have a choice to claim gods. I heard story( Maybe it's Hadith, I'm not sure) that Saytan come to Pharoah and said: " pharoah, you are worst than me" and Pharoah asked "how is that" I never claimed that I'm god" Shatan replied. Pharoah asked what should I do(imagine asking Shatan for advise. Shatan said:"Continue your way. It's not suitable for you to be a servant after you have been god". Although PG is denying faith from logical point of view, she is all acting on faith but worse than that she does not have reliable evedidence to her faith. and worse than that she thinks the people who have faith are stupid. That is what I called a comfussed person. By the way if you can not answer in logical manner, don't get emotional call people stupid.
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 07:20 am in the depths of the spirit of those who deny God with their tongue, a faith in God exists. There is no doubt that victories and successes - especially for individuals with few possibilities - develops pride and this very pride becomes the source for forgetfulness, to the point where often a person even forgets his or her own opinions. But the moment that a storm of difficulties throws their life into chaos and the strong wind of difficulties attacks that person from all sides, the curtains of pride and selfishness moves away from their eyes and divinely-created nature (fitrat) and monotheism (the belief that God is One) appears. History gives many examples of individuals who were like this, whose lives were full of deceit: There was a minister who was very strong and powerful in his age. He had taken control of most of the power and no one opposed him. One day he entered a meeting in which a group of religious scholars were present. He turned to them and said, "For how long will you continue to say that God exists? I have many reasons to prove otherwise." He said this with special pride. As the scholars who were present knew that he was not a reasonable or logical person and that power and strength ha d made him so proud that no words of truth would affect him, they ignored him and remained silent, a meaningful and humble silence. This event passed. After a time, the minister insulted someone. The ruler of the time had him arrested and thrown into jail. One of the scholars who was present at the gathering thought to himself that the time to awaken him had come. Now that he has gotten off the horse of pride and the curtain of self-interest has moved away from his eyes, and the sense of accepting the truth was awakened in him, if he contacts him and gives him words of advice, it may produce good results. He received permission to visit him and he went to the prison. As he neared him, he saw that he was in a room all alone, walking back and forth and thinking and he was recalling a poem which said, "We are all like drawings or paintings of a lion which are painted or drawn on a flag. When the wind blows, it moves and perhaps even attacks, but in reality it has nothing from itself Its strength is the wind which gives it power. We, also, as we gain more power, have nothing from ourselves. It is God who has given this strength to us and whenever He wills, He can take it from us." The above-mentioned scholar saw that under these conditions, not only does he not deny the existence of God, but he has become ardently aware of God. After greeting him he said, "Do you recall how you said you have many reasons for the non-existence of God. I have come to answer those many reasons with just one response, "God is He Who, with such ease, took your power away from you." He hung his head in shame and did not answer because he knew that he had been wrong and he saw the light of God within himself. The Holy Quran says, "We took the Israeli tribes across the sea; Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in pride and insolence. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said, 'I believe that there is no god except Him whom the Israeli tribes believe in. I am of those who submit (muslim).'" (10:90) TWO CLEAR WAYS OF KNOWING GOD With the first way, we get in touch with our deep, inner self and we hear the cry of monotheism from within the depths of ourselves. With the second way, we explore the expansive created world, and we see the signs of the Creator in all creatures and in the heart of every atom. Each one of these two ways requires a great deal of explanation, but what we will try to do is to briefly study each one of these two ways. The inward way Let us think about the following: 1. Scholars say that every human being who thinks, from whatever class or race one be, if left alone, receives no special training, not even hears the words of people who worship God nor the words of materialists, that person will naturally become aware of a force or power which is above nature and which rules all of the world. In the comers of one's heart and spirit, one will sense a very subtle sound, which is full of kindness and, at the same time, clear and firm, which calls one towards the great Source of the universe and the power that we call God. This is that very pure, divinely-created human nature of people. 2. It is possible that one becomes occupied with the commotion in the material world and one's daily life and the lights and attractions of life and one may temporarily neglect to hear this sound, but when one finds oneself facing problems and difficulties, whenever a natural catastrophe like a flood or an earthquake or a hurricane comes, yea, at this time, when one is curtailed from all means of material life, and when one finds no place of refuge, this inner sound gains strength. One senses that within one's self, a power is calling one, a power which is superior to all forces, a secret force and all difficulties and problems seem simple before it. It is rare to find a person who in such difficulties does not automatically turn to God. It is this issue which shows how close we are to Him and how close He is to us. He is in our spirit and our very soul. Of course, the cry of instinct (nature) is always within a person but at times like this, it finds greater force. * * * 3. Our history shows that even the powerful rulers who, at the time of peace and calm, refuse to even mention the Name of God, when the bases of their power begin to shake and they see that they are about to lose all of their power, they turn to God and they hear the voice of their Divinely created nature. History tells us that when Pharaoh saw that he was drowning in the waves of the sea, he said, "I confess that there is no god but the great God of Moses." This cry came from his soul. Not only Pharaoh, but all people who are in a state or condition like he was, cry out the same thing he did. * * * 4. If you study the real reasons for this, you will agree that a light shines from there which calls you to God. Perhaps there have been times when you have met with difficulties and problems and all of the usual ways of solving problems do not work. At that moment, most certainly, you have seen that there is a force in the world which can easily solve it. At this moment, a hope mixed with love fills your spirit and soul and it removes the clouds of darkness from our soul. Yea. This is the closest way which a person can take to God. * * * Only one question: We know that this question may arise for some of you. Does this possibility not exist that based upon what we have been taught by our environment, our father and mother, at sensitive moments, we begin to think that we should not ask God for help? We know you are right and correct in asking this question. The Holy Quran says, "Now, if they embark on a boat, they call on God, making their devotion sincerely (and exclusively) to Him; but when He has delivered them safely to (dry) land, behold, they give a share (of their worship to others)!" (29:65) THE SIGNS OF GOD IN OUR DAILY LIFE 1. Knowing God and the Progress of Science: Pretend that a friend has come from a trip and has brought a book as a present for you. He says that it is an excellent book, because the author of this book is full of information by a very great scholar, who is accurate, an expert and a genius in his own field. You will most certainly not study this book carelessly. Rather you will concentrate on every, sentence and even the choice of words made and if there be a sentence there that you not understand, perhaps you will spend hours and even days, whenever you can, studying it until the meaning of it becomes clear to you. Why? Because the author of this book is not a normal average person but rather a great scholar who considers every word he uses carefully. But if the opposite were true and they had said to you, "This book may appear to be beautiful and pleasing on the outside, but the author is not very literate and he has no base in science and has not taken any care," it is clear that you will only quickly glance at the book and wherever you found something unclear in it, you would say, "This is because the author was uninformed and it is a waste of time for a person to study this." The world of creation is like a great book in which every creature forms a word or sentence in that. From the point of view of a person who worships God, every atom of this universe is worthy of study. A person who has faith in the ray of the light of worshipping God, will make use of a special sense of curosity in studying the secrets of creation - and it is this very fact which helps science and human knowledge to progress - because he knows that the Creator of this universe has endless knowledge and power and everything He does is based on a wisdom and a philosophy. Thus, he studies with greater care, more profoundly in order to be able to understand the secrets better. But a materialist has no reason to discover the secret o f creation for he believes that nature is senseless. If we look at the work of a materialist scholar, it is in the same rank because he accepts God but calls him 'nature'. Why? Because he accepts an order and a program in nature. 2. Knowing God, Endeavoring and Hope: Whenever a difficult and complicated event takes place in the life of a human being, whenever all doors are somehow closed, one senses weakness, hopelessness and loneliness, when confronted by these difficulties, a person with faith in God then seeks His help, which He gives. A person who has faith in God does not see himself or herself as being alone or powerless. He or she does not despair. He or she does not sense weakness or inability, because God is above all difficulties and everything is easy for him. With hope in His kindness, support and help, he or she will struggle against the difficulty and will use all of his or her energies. With love and hope, one will continue his or her endeavors and efforts and will overcome the difficulty. Yea. Faith in God is a great place of refuge for a human being. Faith in God is the substance of perseverance and steadfastness. Faith in God always keeps hope in hearts alive. Be cause of this, individuals with faith never attempt to commit suicide because attempts at suicide comes from despair, a complete lack of hope and a feeling of having failed but individuals with faith neither lose hope nor do they sense failure. * * * 3. Knowing God and the Sense of Responsibility: We know a doctor who, when poor people visit him, not only does he not get money from them for the visit, but he gives them money and drugs and if he senses a danger for that person, he will stay all night in his home. These are people who worship God and have faith. But we also know a doctor who, until the money of the visit is not paid, he will not take the first step for the sick person because he does not have a strong faith. A person who has faith, no matter what his or her profession is, senses responsibility, knows his or her duties, does good. readily forgives and constantly sees a spiritual policeman within his or her soul who watches over one's deeds. But people who lack faith are selfish and dangerous people who have no sense of responsibility. Oppression, suppression and aggression against the rights of others is easy for them and they are less prepared to do good. * * * 4. Knowing God and Peacefulness: Psychologists say that mental and psychological diseases are greater in our time than in any other. They say that one of the factors is anxiety over future events, anxiety over death, anxiety over war and anxiety of fear and failure. They add, "Among the things which can take anxiety away from a person's spirit is faith in God because whenever an anxiety wants to penetrate one's spirit, faith in God pushes it away. A God Who is kind, a God Who helps one meet one's needs, a God Who is aware of His servants condition and if they turn towards Him, He helps them and frees them from anxiety. Because of this, a real believer always has a sense of peacefulness and no anxiety exists within his or her spirit. Whatever such a person does, is for God. Even if one suffers a loss, one seeks its replacement from Him. Such a person even enters the war front with a smile. The Holy Quran says, "It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with oppression - that are ( truly) in peacefulness, for they are on (right} guidance." (6:82)
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 07:51 am EXAMPLES FROM CREATION Throughout the world, 'order', 'goal' and 'design' are apparent. Now pay attention as we study some examples of this. We will present some large and some small examples for you. Fortunately, today, with the progress made in natural sciences, the discovery of the secrets and wonders of the world of nature, and the subtleties in the existence of human beings, animals and plants, the wonderous structure of a cell or an atom and the wonderous system of the stars, the doors of knowing God have been opened to us in such a way that one can clearly say that all books of natural science are books about the oneness and unity of God which teach us great lessons a bout the great Creator because these books remove the veils or curtains which cover the interesting order of the creatures of this world and show how important the Creator of this world is. * * * 1. The center of administration of the country of your body: Our skull has been filled with grey matter called the brain. This brain forms the most accurate and exact system of our body because it commands all of the powers of our body and it manages all of the organs of our system. In order to understand the importance of this great center, it would be a good idea for us to explain the following for you. The newspapers had printed that a Shiraz university student in Khuzistan was in an automobile accident and his brain was damaged but it seemed that nothing at all had happened to him. All of his organs were healthy but strangely enough, he had forgotten all of his past life. His mind worked well. He could study but if he saw his mother and father, he did not recognize them. When they said to him that this was his mother, he was surprised. They took him to his home in Shiraz. They showed him the handicraft work he had done and then hung on the walls of his room. But he looked at it all in amazement and said that he was seeing these things for the first time. It became clear that in the brain damage he suffered, cells which were, in reality, transitions between thought and his memory were no longer working and like a blownout fuse which cuts off the electricity and brings darkness, his memory of the past had been disconnected. Perhaps the point which no longer works is no bigger than the size of the top of a pin but what an effect it has had upon his life and from this it becomes clear how complicated and how important our brain is. Our brain consists of two separate parts: first, the part which is controlled by our voluntary will which controls all of our voluntary motions like walking, looking, speaking. Second, the involuntary part which controls the movement of our heart, stomach, etc. and if one part of this part of the brain does not function, the heart or another organ will no longer function. * * * One of the Most Wonderous Parts of the Brain The cerebrum is the center of will power, consciousness and memory. In other words, it is one of the most sensitive areas of the brain and many of the reactions of the inner senses like anger, fear, etc. relate to it. If we take out the cerebrum in an animal but we leave the other organs as they are, it will remain alive but its understanding and consciousness will be totally eliminated. They have removed the brain of a pigeon. It remained alive for a while but it could not eat seeds that were placed in front of it. Even though it was hungry, it would not eat. If it was allowed to fly, it flew until it hit a barrier and fell down. * * * Another Wonderous Part of the Brain is the Sense of Memory Have you ever thought how wonderous our sense of memory is? If our sense of memory is taken from us for even one hour, what a difficult situation we will be placed in. The center of memory which forms a small part of our brain is where all of our memories of our lifetime are stored. Whoever is related to us, the particularities of that person as to size, form, color, clothes and spirit, are kept in storage in their own area and a special file is formed for each one. Thus the moment we confront that person, our mind removes him from the file and immediately, completely reviews what we know about him and then it commands us as to what reaction we should have. If it is a friend, respect and if it is an enemy, the showing of hatred but all of this is done so quickly that there is more or less no lapse of time. The wonder of this becomes more apparent when we try to recall what is stored and draw it or write it down or record it in a tape recorder. Without any doubt, it will require a great deal of paper or a great number of tapes which can fill a large storage room. Even more wonderous than this is when we want to find one drawing or one tape among them, a file clerk will be necessary but our sense of memory does all of this work very simply, easily and quickly. * * * How can an unconscious nature create a conscious one? Many books have been written about the wonders of the human brain. Can you believe that such an extraordinary system which is so subtle, accurate, complicated and mysterious be made from an unconscious nature? More wonderous than this is to believe that an unintelligent nature could create intelligence. The Holy Quran says, "On the earth are signs for those of assured faith as also in your own selves: will you not then see?" (51:20-21)
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 08:28 am I can always tell how much I rattled ANON and his ilk by the number of copy-and-paste articles that appear within one day. Nour, You truly don't get it, do you? < 1). My point was that at least 90% of your daily life is based on faith.> That's absurd. Faith means belief without evidence. 90% of things I believe with evidence. The other 10% percent is accounted for by the fact that I believe people like you and ANON can ever comprehend what someone else (outside the box of Islam) is trying to tell you. That belief is totally without evidence. <You go work, hoping you will get paid(in a week, 2 week or month) that is a faith. Do you ask for cash first then work?> No. It's called a social contract. I sign (and my boss signs) a legal contract that says she will reimburse me for my labour. She has done so countless times already--This is enough for me to believe she'll continue to do so, but even she reneged on our mutual understanding, I can take her to court and get her to pay up. <You go for grocery shoping and you will see container saying "Corn FLakes" you pay the money. You don't open and make sure if it, realy contains corn flakes cereal before you pay the money.> You REALLY don't get it. I have bought many, many containers of cereal before, and each time they contained what I paid for. This alone is enough to make me trust the store. But even if it didn't contain the cereal, have you ever heard of going back and asking for a refund??? <You take the back seat in the bus having faith in the driver. You fly, same thing. In fact hundreds of millions of passengers around the clobe put their lives in the words of some airtraffic controller.> Oh my. Okay, let me explain something to you. I don't use the bus because it's my faith, or my ancestors have always done it, or it's in the law. I get on the bus because I have evaluated the risks versus the benefits and concluded that it's probably safer to use the bus than to drive a car, or that it's less expensive, or more environmentally friendly. And as for faith, say I am waiting at the bus stop and I see the bus approaching; it's weaving from side to side, crashing into other vehicles, making sudden stops and starts. What do I do? Do I get on anyway, "having faith" in the driver? Of course not. I call the police and tell them there's a problem with the bus on so-and-so street; that the driver seems drunk, or hurt, or sleep. I can use my judgement to protect my self AND the other passengers. There aren't apostasy laws, or punishments for heresy, or Public Transport funded Jihads here. The police aren't going to urge me to "have faith, be patient, trust in Al-Mighty Busdriver". They are gonna come charging to the rescue. But that's here in the West. Who knows what happens in places like Afghanistan? Maybe I would be arrested for having the temerity to question the actions of the busdriver, a MAN. <Some minority people have no faith in flying and decided not to fly( you see, they have a choice).> Incidently, it's a known fact that flying is safer than driving a car. But still, they do have the choice. Nobody is gonna order them to fly or die <Some others don't drive(I heard my grandpa never allow himself to go on a car)> Smart man. Are you really biologically related to him? <And I can go on and on to show that almost all your life is based on faith. See I'm not talking about evidence to your faith now. I'm talking about the faith you have. According the way you live your life, you action are based on faith. but you don't realise that. You think you are faithless.> WRONG, WRONG WRONG. You are trying to twist the word "faith" to mean the same as "trust". Sometimes the words are synonymous, but in this case they are not. "Faith" means belief without evidence. I have ample evidence that my boss won't cheat me. I have ample evidence that buses are safe. I have ample evidence that cereal boxes at store shelves contain cereal. I don't need to believe by faith. I believe by experience. It's called inductive reasoning. If something happens again and again and again just as you predicted it will, then it's not only convenient, but necessary, to believe that it will happen the same way next time. That is nothing like belief in God: first of all, I have never seen him, heard him, felt him or smelled him. This puts a big question mark over his existence. But that's not enough: I have never seen, felt or heard Saddam Hussein either, but I have reason to believe he exists from other lines of evidence: I have seen him on the evening news countless times; I have never heard people who question his existence. His existence explains a lot of things (the poverty in Iraq, the Gulf War--but maybe they are all made up?!?!?) The supposed existence of Allah explains nothing coherently and in fact obscures the real truth. <Let us talk one thing at a time. I see you jumping up and down and mixing tones of different concepts and topics and getting emotional.> And I see you totally missing the point, mixing up concepts (experience vs. faith), and hopelessly, desperately trying to appear logical and rational. And I know the "getting emotional" bit is supposed to rattle me because I am a woman, but it just ain't biting. I AM emotional; how can I not be when I see my country men wasting their lives and the lives of others sucking up to immoral Arabs (dressing like them, speaking like them, genuflecting to them, WORSHIPPING them) in the hope that they will make them honorary Arabs too--and take the sting out of being black Africans? Besides, who's being more "emotional" than you: you threaten those who disagree with you to eternal damnation, you are angry because I dare to question your god and holy books, you think I'm wrong because you can't bear to think that I am right--it would make you whole world come tumbling down around your ears. <2. Let us talk about EVIDENCE now. I was disappointed with you when you only mention the EMPERICAL evidence.> Oh yes, there are other kinds of "evidence", right? The kind that don't exist, for example? <Questions: Is emperical knowledge reliable so that you can base you faith upon it? I'm guessing you smart and educated lady will know the answer. The answer is no.> You are right. The answer IS no. And that's because there's nothing to "base faith on" here. Empirical evidence--verifiable, repeatable, reproducible empirical evidence--is and always will superior to other kinds of evidence: intuition, "what feels right", faith. It may be wrong on occasion, but it's right in the vast majority of times. And that's enough for me to have confidence in it, as supposed to all religion, which's been wrong more times than right. It's basic common sense. <Reason is the defective senses. if it would not have been the defective senses, Steven Spillberg(I'm not sure about the spelling) will not have made millions of dollars in Jurasic Park, and Indepedence Day. Magicians would not entertain us with beautiful ladies cut into halves and then put togather. The key word here is ENTERTAIN. When I enter the movie theatre, I am fully aware that what's being presented is fiction. I consciously set aside skepticism and will myself to believe (that's what you are doing too when you say you "have faith" in God's existence) . It's brief, harmless, and enjoyable. I can leave at any time if I feel uncomfortable or threatened. On the other hand, if someone came up to me on the street and told me they could cut a "beatiful" lady in half and not harm her, I would think he was being funny or mad. That's because, on the street, my reasoning faculties are "on"; I don't want to be laid to or deceived. You do the same thing too: you have a level of credulity in the Mosque that you would never allow yourself in the street, even the streets of Makkah. I am not saying that no one can deceive me--the begger at the corner of my building is probably deceiving me--I am saying they can't do it in a major way without being bloody convincing. And bloody convincing, for me, means empirical proof or sound logical reasoning. <Then how can you trust your emperical knowlegde as the only source of knowing the truth?. > It's not the only source of knowledge, of course. There's also logical reasoning, instinct, experience, intuition. But empirical proof is by far the best. You can come up with all sorts of logically sounds theories, but it's when you get empirical proof that it's taken seriously. Like evolution It was only taken seriously when the evidence for it built up. <If all what you see is the way they appear then, you must think the dinasourse in Jurasic Park was real. if you don't beleive in that dinasource, then your are lying when you said that I will believe in Allah if I see it. You will say this is not true it's just like that dinasource animated by some film crews.> Gosh, can you be that dumb and naive? I don't believe the dinosaurs in Jurasic Park were real because I know they were bits of metal and computer graphics. (I believe dinosaurs lived about 100 million years ago, but I got empirical proof of that). You seem to be unable to distinguish fiction from fact. The rest of us can: we know that we are indulging in make-belief and fantasies, we know what's imagination and what's real. A movie theater is not the place to be skeptical, and everybody willingly suspends their disbelief for a while. It's called entertainment, story-telling, harmless fun. Only a child would use that as an example of faulty reasoning. There's no reasoning in a movie theater, unless it's about the content and plot of the movie. (Hannibal, for example, was horrible in content, but sometimes beatiful in imagery). <Allah says in the Quran.> Who's Allah? Has he published any work in a peer-reviewed journal? Have any independent researchers repeated his experiments and came up with the same results? Is he available for consultation, discussion, criticism? Is he willing to submit to a review board? If the answer to all of these is NO, then I am not sure any claims he makes in his "Quran" are worth presenting as evidence. <"14: Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, 15:They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery" > I wouldn't say that! I don't believe in sorcery, magic, or witchcraft. Just goes to show that this Allah individual had no clue. I would sooner believe in Allah than I would in sorcery. (BTW, we don't need a "gate from heaven" to open, we have already ascended to the heavens and marvelled at the beauty "therein"; so far, no astronaut claims he's been bewitched by sorcery) <Let along People have no choice to disbelieve Allah, they in fact have a choice to claim gods.> Huh? <I heard story( Maybe it's Hadith, I'm not sure) that Saytan come to Pharoah and said: " pharoah, you are worst than me" and Pharoah asked "how is that" I never claimed that I'm god" Shatan replied. Pharoah asked what should I do(imagine asking Shatan for advise. Shatan said:"Continue your way. It's not suitable for you to be a servant after you have been god".> It's definitely a story: the characters are fictional, the plot is unlikely. Countless gods have fallen to oblivion when their creators (humans) died or lost interest, and there's no reason to think the Arabic one won't either. <Although PG is denying faith from logical point of view, she is all acting on faith but worse than that she does not have reliable evedidence to her faith. and worse than that she thinks the people who have faith are stupid. That is what I called a comfussed person.> Now we are are talking about me in the third person huh? Kind of like the Qur'an: the supposed word of God is in fact ABOUT God, refering to him as "He" more often than not (personally, I think people who talk about themselves in the third person singular are a little bit bonkers). As I have showed you again and again, I do have evidence for most of what I believe: direct personal experience and reasoning. What's more, notice another major difference between your faith and mine: I would never force my "faith" onto you--I will never tell you to convert or die, or that you will go to hell if you don't believe me, or that you have to believe without evidence. And I don't believe that people who have faith are necessarily stupid: Mad Mac is not stupid; TLG isn't either (although she does get "emotional" ). Believers are only stupid when they try to convince me of something that they have no evidence for. Mad Mac realizes that he can't translate his own personal experience of a miracle (no matter how convincing it is to him) into a universal law. You and your type don't. That's why I have no problem with deists in general, but organized religion annoys the "hell" out of me. {lol} <By the way if you can not answer in logical manner, don't get emotional call people stupid.> There's that "emotional" word again. And people should be called stupid if they are being stupid, deliberately misinterpreting others' views, spouting nonsense, and generally being intolerable. But all the same, I promise not to call you stupid if you promise not to take what I write out of context, twist it, and claim I am saying the opposite of what I actually said. Agreed?
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 11:13 am "I can always tell how much I rattled ANON' lol---->rattled ANON. ;-). is that your wishful thinking? are you sure it is not the other way around-----ANON maker you rattle? ;-) "and his ilk" your co-atheists also admitted and accused me causing nightmares to them. ;-) "by the number of copy-and-paste articles that appear within one day." i enjoyed reading them. ;-). these kind of articles make things clear. ;-)
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 06:53 am <i enjoyed reading them. ;-). these kind of articles make things clear. ;-)> I enjoy reading them too. They do make things clear, like how stupid the author AND poster must be. My favourites are the ones where the poster substitutes Islam where the article says Christianity, Qur'an where it says Bible, and so on. You can always tell they weren't originally written by a Muslim.
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 11:31 am "I enjoy reading them too. They do make things clear, like how stupid the author AND poster must be." lol----stupid. ;-) and you are not stupid? ;-) "My favourites are the ones where the poster substitutes Islam where the article says Christianity, Qur'an where it says Bible, and so on. You can always tell they weren't originally written by a Muslim." let's say what you are saying is true (that you can tell things were substituted): are you saying then that is what makes them stupid or are you saying that if a christian or a muslim refutes an atheist----that is what makes them a stupid, right? ;-). what about the atheists-------are you saying that they are smart and not stupid? ;-)
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 01:01 pm Whoever put it, the articles are interesting. PG Now, it's fair for me to say that what you wrote is a mess. I went through all what you wrote trying to find any sentence that might contain a bit of logic and rationality and I failed. speculation, generalized accusation, stereotyping, exreme feminism( or should I called it Gender Complexity) is all what you wrote. As for your arguement, one time you denied that you have a faith( by changing the meaning of "faith" despite of the English dictionnary) and another time you admitted that you have a faith. One time, you demanded for only emperical evidence to your faith in God and then you agreed to that emperical evidence is not reliable. Before you said, I'm twisting your words go back and reread what you wrote or if you want me I will cut and paste it on you eyes. and more contradiction, it seems that. OOPs I have to go I will complete it later
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 01:57 pm arite interesting Pg quick one. what about your doctor?. Lets say you need surgery... and the doctor says I have a 95% success rate for recovery.. what if you are in that 5% ?that is not 5% for you... you 100% did not get better, furthermore, now really a 95% success rate is the best you really ever gonna get. So you go for it, clearly that is faith in conjecture.. i have done this time and time again, and it seems to work, so this time it should work also. Lets not go there with faith.. this folk conducted experiments with rats and they found after drwoing them, they survived for X amount of mins, after getting some more rats and then nearly drowning them, they found they survied for on average 15 secs longer?. Can you go into surgery without faith in your doctor? hope... ain't it wonderful
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 07:14 am At the weekends my access to computer is really very limited. Usualy, I steal some few minutes from the hours I get paid at work to type few messages(Since I do a good job for them, I'm hoping this is ok). Before I get interrupted in my last postings, what I wanted to say, basicaly, is that. PG, you can speculate, accuse, stereotype all you want(BTW, yours is cheap) But, please, NEVER try to use logic to justify your Atheism Faith(or you prefer to be called Religion of Darwanism). Don't you see how, troubley, you contradicted yourself. You even resorted to redefine the word "Faith". I Never saw any dictionary that defined "faith" as "something without evidence". Here is the first definition of Cambridge Dictionary: "great trust or confidence in something or someone". You see, faith is stronger than trust. Here, we are not talking about Faith with no evidence . Who needs that?. Probably that what you have. Alxamdu Lillah, we don't have that kind of faith( the one you defined in your argument). Scientific evidence,since I saw that what you wish to have in Darwanism faith("without Evidence"  . If you need, the scientic Ayat in the Qur'an, I will be happy to forward it for you. Then, all you have to do(since you seem you are not that scientific person) is take to your favorite Scientist. She( I put "she" on purpose, probaly you will not trust MAN) will explain to you, in a scientific manner, what the verse is talking about without even knowing this is a verse in the Qur'an. Be carefull, don't tell her that this is a verse in the Qur'an before she finishes her explanation because, if she is your ilk(I learned this word from you, thank you. See, I'm honest with you. So don't treat me as a MAN , she may not tell you the true meaning of the verse. BTW, You seem that you think Darwin's Theory of Evolution is scientific!! Did you hear about the Law Suit brought by some prominant Western Scientists against National Science Foundation for funding some Darwanist fanatics who forged evidence just to prove the Theory is scientific. Do you read the 1999 report by Jonathen Wells of Center Of Renewal Science. This report is about the 1999 conference of "The Origin Of Animal Body Plans and The fossil Records" and it held in Chaina.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:53 am Common, <what about your doctor?. Lets say you need surgery... and the doctor says I have a 95% success rate for recovery.. what if you are in that 5% ?that is not 5% for you... you 100% did not get better, furthermore, now really a 95% success rate is the best you really ever gonna get. So you go for it, clearly that is faith in conjecture.. i have done this time and time again, and it seems to work, so this time it should work also.> I am so amused by people who try to use examples like this to justify their faith in God. Okay, let's see. A doctor tells me that he has a 95% success rate with an operation. Assuming that he's telling the truth (and I would check to make sure), what are my options? 1) I can chose not to have the operation. If it's minor (eg., plastic surgery), then no big deal. 2)But if it's major (eg., heart surgery) and my chances of surviving without it is 0%, then getting the operation is safer: 100% of people who don't get the surgery die, but only 5% of those who do die: regardless of his success rate (even if it's 50%), it's still better than than the 0% success rate of not having the operation: it's a simple matter of cost-benefit analysis, Common, and everybody does it daily. <Lets not go there with faith> Go where? <.. this folk conducted experiments with rats and they found after drwoing them, they survived for X amount of mins, after getting some more rats and then nearly drowning them, they found they survied for on average 15 secs longer?.> What is the point of this? <Can you go into surgery without faith in your doctor?> I can go into surgery knowing fully well that there's a possibility my doctor will fail. I don't have to believe that he's infallible. And I don't have to go into surgery at all. I can go searching for another doctor who demonstrates better skill--maybe a 98% success rate, instead of 95%. All of this means that my "faith" in my doctor is minimal, and based entirely of MY evaluation of him, not what someone else in a book written 1400 years ago tells me. <hope... ain't it wonderful> Certainly it is. But go too far and it's wishful thinking, like the belief that we were created by a supreme being who's sole interest is in whether we flatter him or not.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 01:49 pm <At the weekends my access to computer is really very limited. Usualy, I steal some few minutes from the hours I get paid at work to type few messages(Since I do a good job for them, I'm hoping this is ok).> That explains it. No way could you write the stuff you post here after much thought or deliberation, unless you are seriously demented. <Before I get interrupted in my last postings, what I wanted to say, basicaly, is that.> See what I mean? <PG, you can speculate, accuse, stereotype all you want(BTW, yours is cheap)> Could you provide examples where I provide "cheap" stereotypes? And would you mind if I do the same? <But, please, NEVER try to use logic to justify your Atheism Faith(or you prefer to be called Religion of Darwanism).> Wrong. I would still be an atheist even if Darwin didn't exist; one because someone else would have come up with the theory (eg., Alfred Wallace), and two, because atheism is not synonymous with "darwinism". Say evolution was proved scientifically wrong. I would then stop accepting the theory of evolution, but would still remain an atheist, because evolution has little to do with atheism. There were atheists before Darwin, and there are people who believe in God even though they also accept evolution (eg., Alfred Wallace). <Don't you see how, troubley, you contradicted yourself.> How did I contradict myself, Nour. You always seem to be claiming there are weaknesses in my arguments without actually pointing them out in so many words. <You even resorted to redefine the word "Faith".> Sometimes you have to define a word, concept or term to further facilitate understanding. So if you have a different definition, fine. <I Never saw any dictionary that defined "faith" as "something without evidence". > But that's not what I said. This is what I wrote: "You are trying to twist the word "faith" to mean the same as "trust". Sometimes the words are synonymous, but in this case they are not. "Faith" means belief without evidence." The key words here are "belief without evidence", not "something without evidence". There's a difference, but more on that next. <Here is the first definition of Cambridge Dictionary: "great trust or confidence in something or someone".> I gave that definition already (that "faith" is sometimes synonymous with "trust" . And anyway, that's one definition. Here's another: "Belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny." And another (from Webster's): "Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another testifies is the truth." Get it? "Resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence". Another definition (which makes sense in this context): "Faith is what you have when the presence or absence of empirical evidence doesn't matter" This is probably the best definition around, because it would also agree with how a theist views faith: You believe God exists because of faith, but you believe you have evidence. But if a particular "evidence" turns out to be false, you would still belief in God, right? For example, a lot of Muslims are now going on about how the Qur'an talks about the Big Bang, and that this is evidence of the divine origins of the Qur'an. But if the Big Bang theory turns out to be wrong, would you stop believing in the Qur'an? Of course not. You would use something else to prove to yourself that the Qur'an is divine in origins. Because empirical evidence does not matter to you as much as it does in science, or to me: if I find evidence that the bus driver is going to crash the bus (even though he never did before), I no longer have to trust his driving skills. I don't have to have faith in him despite evidence to the contrary. I really hope we can get over this infantile war of definitions. Every reasonable person knows that "I believe God exists" is a declaration of faith, but "I trust my doctor to do a good job, based on his track record, my discussions with him, and what other patients say" is not the same thing. The former has no empirical evidence, the latter does. <You see, faith is stronger than trust. Here, we are not talking about Faith with no evidence . Who needs that?. Probably that what you have. AlxamduLillah, we don't have that kind of faith( the one you defined in your argument).> You have empirical evidence God exists?!? Please, share with the rest of us. Remember, we are talking about empirical evidence here, not forced metaphors. And you have to prove that God exists, not that evolution is false, the two are not the same. <Scientific evidence,since I saw that what you wish to have in Darwanism faith("without Evidence".> Darwinism is not a religious belief system unless it involves belief in or worship of a God. And if you disprove evolutionary theory conclusively, then I won't accept it anymore, but will still remain an atheist. Try to understand that people were questioning the existence of God(s) long before "Darwinism". <If you need, the scientic Ayat in the Qur'an, I will be happy to forward it for you.> Oh yes. I have read these "scientific" ayat, and suffice it to say that they did not convince me. They are the forced interpretations of Muslims who have a good reason to fake them and reword them. My favorite is the one where it's "proven" that the Qur'an says that the Earth is a globe. Aside from the fact that the Qur'an does no such a thing, there's the host of Ayat that clearly indicate Muhammed thought the Earth was flat when he was "reciting" the Qur'an. <Then, all you have to do(since you seem you are not that scientific person) is take to your favorite Scientist. She( I put "she" on purpose, probaly you will not trust MAN) will explain to you, in a scientific manner, what the verse is talking about without even knowing this is a verse in the Qur'an.> I did that already. It was the ayat on the fetal development that are supposed to be so miraculous. The embroyologist had no clue these were Qur'anic ayats but thought they were my own understandings. Anyways, he kept shaking his head, talking down book after book and saying "not exactly", which is scientist-speak for "you're completely wrong but proffesional courtesy dictates I not say so". So much for the go to a "real" scientist idea. <Be carefull, don't tell her that this is a verse in the Qur'an before she finishes her explanation because,....if she is your ilk... she may not tell you the true meaning of the verse. > I covered that already, and you see how it didn't work out to your advantage. <BTW, You seem that you think Darwin's Theory of Evolution is scientific!!> Oh yes it is. 1) Is it falsifiable? Yes (go ahead, find vertebrate fossils before the appearance of fish, or something that clearly and scientifically shows that evolution couldn't have occured, and you have now falsified the theory of evolution!) 2) Does it make empirically testable predictions? Yes. There are a huge number of predictions and explanations of NATURAL PHENOMENA that can only be explained logically and scientifically using the theory of evolution. 3) Does it claim to be the final word, the one and only truth? No. If a better theory comes along, I will reject the theory of evolution. 4) Is it scientifically superior to former theories of life and the origin species? Yes. <Did you hear about the Law Suit brought by some prominant Western Scientists against National Science Foundation for funding some Darwanist fanatics who forged evidence just to prove the Theory is scientific.> Did you hear about the Muslim fanatics in Sudan who kill thousands of Christian children by forcing them to convert to Islam so they can use them as shields and bomb detectors? Does this prove that God doesn't exist or that all Muslims are evil? <Do you read the 1999 report by Jonathen Wells of Center Of Renewal Science. This report is about the 1999 conference of "The Origin Of Animal Body Plans and The fossil Records" and it held in Chaina.> No, but I have read his book "Icons of Evolution" and found it poorly researched and fanatical in its dismissal of evolution. He--get this--believes that the fossil record is correct, that Earth really is 4.5 billion years old, that extinction does occur, that homologies between different species exist--but thinks that natural selection is false and that somehow the non-human animals evolved by a process of Intelligent Design. Or some thing like that. Reading his book, you get the impression that, even thought he says otherwise, first he rejected evolution, then he came up with reasons why. On the other hand, first I accepted the creationism, then I rejected it when empirical evidence against it became too great.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 06:58 pm PG(13) What is your purpose here are you trying to convince use that your forefathers were Apes? As I said before, you make a strong case for yourself. You may believe in it; no actually have faith in it, No argument from me. Allah tells us in the Quran that He turned a tribe into Apes (perhaps your forefathers). Yes we Have ‘Faith’ In Allah. If you could see, hear, smell, touch Allah with your sense then it would not be faith, now would it? I know what faith is do you? You act dumb or maybe you are dumb, I dunno which, but you are annoying if not intelligent or convincing. Will you stop trying to convince us that Allah does not exist He is beyond your tools of investigation. Allah guides whom ever He wishes and we do not question His infinite wisdom. I feel terrible sorry for you, the saying, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies to you. I will be unbiased and state that evolution May explain ‘certain’ things about the history of the earth. I can explain what I mean certain but in the end it’s irrelevant because It’s only a theory, No sweat. It sure as Hell does not explain creation (No pun intended). ‘Scholars’ continuously debate its validity and those of us fortunate enough to attend university are exposed to these debates, which make me doubt your intelligence because you have such strong FAITH in evolution. Allah explains Creation, what do you suggest to explain creation? An accident? Or do accidents happen if there was not a purpose and intent in the first place? Or was the ‘accident’ not a accident and was actually the intent? How can you call it an accident if you don’t know what the original intent was? Rest your little mind, as it will never be able to understand, grasp or comprehend everything. This is why we Muslims say Allah knows best. Surely the fire needs fuel and I prey that Allah guides us all to the right path I’m not sure if you made reference to religious wars casing the deaths of many but you have been lied to (or who ever stated this), Poor African Woman has been brain washed. More people died in the Two World wars and many, many other secular wars! Do you read selectively? Most atheists choose to disbelieve in Allah for a reason or a desire that they are not willing give up, not because Allah has been disproved. What desire have you taken as god? Be honest for once.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 07:32 pm I did not read your little bit on ‘war or words and definitions’, lol Give us a break your just like us, you have faith, you of all people PG. That is our only point. You may not take evolution as a god, actually you don’t; you are a hedonism. You will never submit or worship a flimsy theory. I ask you, how do you explain the creation of the universe or the symmetry or the universe down to the cell and Atom? It’s like TLG say death will answer all our questions, you will find out (or not) whichever the case. Allah tells both of us to wait and see. Either way we have nothing to loose and you have eternity to loose  . So peace sheApe we shall soon find out
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 08:09 pm To Nour I believe you're doing a great job,unfortunately, Bragmatigal doesn't like accepting the light of Allah(Islam). It looks like she/he is familiar with JAHANAB(the hell fire). Therefore my dear brother spent your time some where better than here.
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 06:50 am This what you wrote "after much thought or deliberation" then you must be "seriously demented" "How did I contradict myself, Nour. You always seem to be claiming there are weaknesses in my arguments without actually pointing them out in so many words." You said " why is it that God cannot show himself clearly for all to see? " then when I said that you can not rely on your eyes for the truth, you agreed by saying: "You are right. The answer IS no" And since you are "scientific" person, then you must know that, seeing Allah must be miracle, and you said: "I personally don't believe in miracles" Then what gurantees that you will beleive in Allah if He shows himself to you if you don't beleive in your eyes and don't beleive in miracles? And, by the way, this is one you based on all your logical premises for denying Allah. Let us take another one. I argued that you have a faith in many ways. To deny that you redefined the word "faith". And later on your argument, I was suprised to see that you are admitting that you have a faith by saying: "major difference between your faith and mine: I would never force my "faith" onto you--I will never tell you to convert or die". BTW, this is a good example of stereotyping I was talking about"to convert or die", There is no such thing in Islam. "Sometimes you have to define a word, concept or term to further facilitate understanding. So if you have a different definition, fine." When you invent your own language, then you redefine the words in it. "Faith" has been already defined in the English dictionary, so use it as it's or leave it along. Hey I realy don't have that much time to cut-and-paste and comment on the rest of the crap I just wanted to mention that the the scientific Verses in the Qur'an lead thousands of real scientists to embrace Islam. PG, I will suggest that you do it again( I doubt if you did it already) and make sure the person is REAL scientist and follow my earlier advice.
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 09:50 am Prac Careful you are using pre concived notions you learnt at the Lab to judge me. I was not using that example i poised to you to justify my belief in Allah (swt), rather it was simply a post to you, to point out that your concept of faith was very narrow. wouldn't it be silly to think i would base my life , purpose and existance on a smug little post to someone who calls her self pragmac.. isn't this once agin delusions of granduer? If you were amsued, which i doubt, then you are amused easily, and thus your expression loses resonance. If you were not amused then you were just being cute, which is no big crime BTW you never really answered the question, which in essence was "is not you having surgery based on faith?" What you replied was a wish washy reference to cost benfit anaylsis. You are kind of wrong. Cost benefit anaylsis is usually always, in fact by defintion quantative.(although the interpratation is arguably political) Any decison you would make on any surgery would almost certainly be quantative.(yes even if you took the time to check out the doctors record, which of course is perfectly natural whuile you are about to have major surgery and are there lying in hospital..but hey who am i to question your commitment to the truth) esentially i do have a notion of you, exactly when it was concived i do not know, but i think you have a godcomplex, certain folk do peace
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