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If you are easily offended - Don't open this conversation with The Mad One

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Mar. 13, 2001): If you are easily offended - Don't open this conversation with The Mad One
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MAD MAC

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 04:08 am
Comrades
I opened this new thread because the old one is getting too long and hard to open.

I'd like to start this one off with a question. What do you guys in general think of the Taliban government in Afghanistan? Do you think this is a proper model for an Islamic government, and if not, what do you envision that model to be and where has the Taliban gone wrong? I think the US and Russia are coming close to considering resourcing the opposition in the civil war there, as they have considered supporting the psychotics in Sudan (politics does make for strange bed fellows).

On a humurous note, did you know there is a gang in Liberia called, and I kid you not here, "The Buttnekeds". A friend of mine who is ceaaselessly trying to convince me to stay out of Somalia mentioned them. I reassured him that I thought such a concept, even for the Mooryan, was a bit far fetched in Somalia.

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Galool

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 07:27 am
MM

Afghanis and Somalis have a lot in common. Both are non-arab muslims. Both have high illeteracy rates and both countries have been through a horrendous civil war. Both countries have semi- compulsory madrassa education for boys(although Afghanis obviously stay there longer since the word Taliban means students and these are very mature students!) The Madrassah concept is hardly known in the Arab world.

Both Afghanis and Somalis are divided along clan lines although ethnically homogenous.(Afghanistan has ethinic minorities)

Both Afghanis and somalis think of themselves as Warrior Races (read savages) although the Afghanis had done more to prove this notion than Somalis. Both Afghanis and somalis are thought of as generally greedy and rather treacherous. The British colonialists used to say " You can't buy an Afghan but you can rent one!" the Aid agencies who work in both countries are fed-up of people demanding to be payed all the time when they haven't done anything to deserve reward.

The most telling fact they share is that Somalia and Afghanistan are the least and second least developed countries in the world respectively. And this is official.

So the two countries and peoples have a lot in common. That is why I always use it as an example because I know if Islamists ever came to power in Somalia, they will be a mirror image of the Taliban.

There is one thing I do like about Afghanistan and it is not the Lapis lazuli. They irritate Uncle Sam. I shriek with delight when I see American officials fulminating against how brutal the Afghans are! Hey, are you telling us you didn't know this when you were arming these religious morons so that they could bring down a progressive, secular regime? You didn't suspect they may turn on you as soon as they defeat USSR? I say to America the short-sighted: sleep on the bed of nails you created! and remember that Somali proverb: Those who feed snakes should not be surprised if they get bitten. (I know I told you this before but I like it so much I decided to tell it again)

Needless to say, my heart goes to the hapless people of this benighted land. They are a lesson for us, to say Never to religious radicalism in our country. Afghanistan should serve as a warning to us all.

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Aslee

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 10:06 am
Mad Mac, when did the "Buttnekeds" gang came into being??

I was in Monrovia in 1994, and it was an experience. I am sure your are familar with the rift among the Americo-libereians and the rest of the liberiians. Anyway, Charles Taylor and the rest of the Americo-liberians think they are better than the other indegenioues tribes such as the krahns etc, just because their ancestors came back from America and "founded" Liberia, and brought development read 'christianity and mission schools. Anyway, the Liberians are cool people, the country is rich with rubber plantations and diamonds. Too bad, everything that was economically viable was in the hands of the Lebanese residents, at least that was the case in the early 90s. While I was there, I met an Indian who owned one of the local pharmacies. This Indian used to live in Somalia! and left when Siyaad Barre regime started harrassing and privatizing people's business. First time I saw some-one who was happy to see a Somali.....the dude acted like I was one of his long lost relatives, lol.
Ah, sorry for the post, I never thought I would have nostalgia for Liberia, Riverview, etc. the pidgin English... being called 'bossman' (of course I corrected them, so I was bosslady lol!!) good food, beautiful beaches. Too bad, charles Taylor, Nigerians and others are robbing the country of its resources and are not investing in it.

I don't know much about the Talibans and the same time I don't trust the mainstream media bias.
One thing that I was told by a couple of Afghani women is the mis-treatment of women and girls, i.e denial of their right to work or attend school.

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Galool

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 10:40 am
Aslee

Interesting. What were you doing in Liberia?

Everything the western media says about the Taliban is true. In fact the b'tards under-report the oppression, because they so slavishly supported what they called the Mujahideen in the late eighties, and they are slightly embarrassed by the results. You know how whites hate to think they are wrong or have been wrong?

The whole of western media including the so-called left-wing press gushed with typically establishment-supporting rhetoric during the Afghan war and portrayed the religious nuts as some sort of innocent, galant heroes.

They can't come to terms with sad reality that Afghanistan is a sh**e-house, a sh**e-house they (the West) helped create.

The victims are the poor people of Afghanistan.

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Aslee

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 11:17 am
Galool, I was working there. After grad school, I had the opportunity to travel and work overseas.
One of these days, I am going to quit my 9-5 job and just travel the world. I would love to see places like Brazil, Nepal, Bhutan, South Africa etc. (I have been to Mozambique).
Waiting to win the lottery though lol!

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The Smart One

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 11:31 am
Lolllllllllllllllllllllll


CAn you Imagine....the one who have 3 personality talking to himself.......and MAD.........u r not surprise why NO-one want debate.......some one like u.......u r just Looooooser........MAD=Glool=aslee...........atleat if u want make yourself a Women name.......u could have choose......a Somali one.....Like......Cambro.....cuz when u Choose.......the Galool Nick.....atleast u have chosen the \MOst Original......but Stil u can,t Fool me...........peace

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MAD MAC

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 12:03 pm
Smart one. Yep there's no fooling you. You're pretty smart dude. You remind me of Beavis. Only he was harder to fool. Listen rock-head, do you know how often I hear this nonsense? I'll make this easy for you. I can prove I am MAD MAC and not someone else like galool. E-Mail me at:

iikorpsg2of@hq.c5.army.mil

Galool, if you could address this moron in Somali that should settle it, since I am obviously an American and my Somali vocabulary is about 60 words.

Galool
I agree, in retrospect supporting the Afghanis was probably a mistake, but not a big mistake. The ony decent weapon we gave them was stingers, and they are quickly losing their utlity. The Afghans are annoying becase they harbor the boogeyman, UBL, but truth be told they have NO - I say again NO - ability to project power. We should pay some locals a few million dollars to blow his head off and be done with it. Or, COA number two, we could fly a few stealth bombers using Russian air space (they don't like UBL either) and destroy his camps using fuel air explosives. That would both be a lot of fun and kill a whole bunch of his followers all in one stroke. It would also send a message to others who want to make a career out of being annoying. While the Somalis and Afghans like to think of themselves as brutal warriors, they are dwarfed in comparison with the Americans, who have a well earned reputation for being willing to do whatever it takes to win.

I hope you are wrong about something like the Taliban (Al Itihad maybe) actually forming a serious government in Somalia. A closed, backward Somalia is not part of MAC's future vision.

Aislee
I don't know when the "Buttnekeds" appeared on the scene. I'd have to ask my friend. BTW Charles Taylor is a Krahn. And all the folks I know who have spent time in Monrovia in the last 5 years say it defines the word hole. Are you sure you were in the same city? The friends I have who were in both Hamer and Monrovia say Hamer was in better shape and safer - and that's saying a lot.

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Asli

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 12:55 pm
MadMac, as I said I was there in 1994. I left Somalia in 1980 so definitely I am not comparing Monrovia to the beautiful city of Mogadishu as I last saw it. It is news to me though that C. Taylor is a Krahn. All the americo-libero supportted him then. I don't know much what is going on now.
One thing, when I was there, there were AFrican Peace keeping forces and Charles Taylor who was not in monrovia then (he was in a town inland can't remember the name) didn't trust the Nigerian contingent and had more faith in the East African contingent lead by the Ugandan General Ivan Koretta.
Anyways, I don't mean to sidetrack your Taliban topic ok.

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Galool

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 02:19 pm
MM

I think it is a she. Poor thing is completely obsessed with this silly little game of Who is also Who in the net. the only thing is, she is no good at it at all! So don't be a killjoy, let the little damsel have some fun.

Of course Afghanistan have no strategic importance for America, but it can continue to be a nuisance, one of those "rogue states" Dubya is spending billions to protect his empire from. You know the limitations of airpower, and America is so body-bag shy it is unlikely to deploy land forces unless its interest is seriously threatened. All this means that Afghanistan could remain a thorn on the American side for a very long time.

SmartOne
How did you guess? Aren't you clever and wise! I thought no one could discover me, but I did not count on such Smart boys and girls like you! Now can you guess who else is also me. Oh! you didn't think I will call myself three name, did you? Tut!tut! not as Smart as I thought! I am also TLG, FG, Asad, and you all those people that call themselves anonymous all over the net? Yep you guessed it, they are all me!

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LOL

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 04:40 pm
Galool, you are right Afghanis and Somalis have a lot in common. Both are non-arab muslims and both kicked super powers butt. Afghanis kicked the butt of the former Soviet army and Somalis kicked the butt of American army. http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/default16.asp

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Anonymous

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 06:46 pm
hey mad dog

by the way anything that goes up will come down

Russia was up and then came down

arrogant foolish USA went up to the peak,
and soon they going to come down.

There is nothing will stay up, every bird that fly will come one day down.

Where is England!!, Russia?!
So don't brag, and be arrogant you will see, if not you grand children might.

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Anonymous

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 07:30 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=004452941505900&rtmo=LxlLythd&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/95/1/25/airb2501.jpeg

http://www.texemarrs.com/101997/UNHELL.HTM
http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/archive/html/1997/06/30/belgium.html
Belgian UN troops admit to 'roasting' Somali boy
By Robert Fox and AFP

TWO Belgian paratroopers who were photographed "roasting" a Somali boy over a flaming brazier are expected to be jailed for only a month and fined £200 after admitting the atrocity in a military court in Brussels yesterday.

Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus faced a maximum of a year in jail but the prosecutor demanded only a month. Sentence will be passed on Monday. The case against a third soldier accused of atrocities during the United Nations "Restore Hope" mission three years ago was adjourned until September.

Sgt Dirk Nassel is accused of forcing a young Somali to eat pork, drink salt water, and then eat his vomit. The three soldiers were charged with assault and threatening behaviour.

A fourth member of the 3rd battalion of the Parachute Regiment, based at Tielen in Flanders, is also due to go on trial in September. Sergeant Major Rudy Derkinderen is suspected of having murdered a Somali whom he was photographed urinating on.

The circumstances surrounding the death of another child at the paratroopers' base near Kismayo in southern Somalia are also under investigation. According to the testimony of two former paratroopers, the boy, who had been caught trying to steal food, died after being locked in a container for 48 hours.

The Defence Minister, Jean-Pol Poncelet, has promised that any of the paratroopers found guilty of criminal acts in Somalia will be dishonourably discharged. Baert has already left the army but Coelus is now in the navy and Nassel has remained at Tielen.

Mr Poncelet has also ordered an inquiry to establish whether the incidents were part of a broader pattern of abuse of the local population. If it is, he has promised to disband the 3rd battalion.

Fifteen members of the regiment were investigated in 1995 for "acts of sadism and torture" against Somalian civilians.

One paratrooper has been sentenced to five years, following the murder of a Somalian youth, who allegedly had uncovered illegal arms trading by the paratroopers. Belgium is the third country involved in the "Restore Hope" mission to charge its soldiers for serious misdemeanours against Somalian civilians, including rape, torture and murder. In 1995 a group of Canadian paratroopers were investigated for torturing a Somali to death and killing three others.

The charges of indiscipline, racism, and the rituals for new members of the unit led to the Canadian Airborne Regiment being disbanded last year. Earlier this month gruesome photographs were published in a Milan magazine of Italian soldiers torturing a young Somali youth, and abusing and raping a young Somali girl. Two Italian generals involved in "Restore Hope" have subsequently resigned to clear the way for a major investigation of the unit involved, the Folgore (Lightning) Division currently deployed on peacekeeping duties in Albania.

The Italian parliament has set up a major investigation and boards of inquiry of the Italian army are at work. Paratroopers of the Folgore claim that they were specifically trained in methods of torture to aid interrogation. According to one witness Italian soldiers tied a young Somali girl to the front of an armoured carrier and raped her while officers looked on.

The witness told investigators: "When the officers wanted to have fun, everybody went along with it."

Over the weekend an interpreter with the Italian force in Somalia accused a Folgore battalion commander of sexually abusing a 13-year-old Somali youth. The "Restore Hope" mission has become the most controversial of all recent peacekeeping operations undertaken under the UN banner. It was mandated in 1992 to provide medical aid and food after civil order in Somalia collapsed following the overthrow of the Marxist dictator Maj Gen Muhammad Siad Barré, after a 17-year civil war.

The operation was directed by an American admiral, and spearheaded by American Marines. After the murder of 20 Pakistani soldiers in an ambush and the killing and dragging of two American Marines through the streets of Mogadishu, the American command moved from peacekeeping to offensive operations against the warlords running the main Somali cities, principally Mogadishu and Kismayo.

Though they used helicopter gunships and area bombardment, the Americans failed to defeat the leading warlord, Gen Muhammad Farrah Aidid, and eventually the UN forces were ordered to withdraw. A common thread through the accusations against the Belgian, Italian and Canadian forces, is the racism of elite units, particularly airborne units, and their inability to adapt to low-intensity peacekeeping operations.

Last week an Italian paratrooper said: "What's the big deal? They are just niggers anyway."

The head of the UN's peacekeeping department, Under Secretary General Bernard Miyet, said: "The image of the United Nations has been tarnished."

Electronic Telegraph
International News
Tuesday 24 June 1997
Issue 760

Belgian UN troops admit to 'roasting' Somali boy
By Robert Fox and AFP

http://www.telegraph.co.uk

TWO Belgian paratroopers who were photographed "roasting" a Somali boy over a flaming brazier are expected to be jailed for only a month and fined #200 after admitting the atrocity in a military court in Brussels yesterday.

Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus faced a maximum of a year in jail but the prosecutor demanded only a month. Sentence will be passed on Monday. The case against a third soldier accused of atrocities during the United Nations "Restore Hope" mission three years ago was adjourned until September.

Sgt Dirk Nassel is accused of forcing a young Somali to eat pork, drink salt water, and then eat his vomit. The three soldiers were charged with assault and threatening behaviour.

A fourth member of the 3rd battalion of the Parachute Regiment, based at Tielen in Flanders, is also due to go on trial in September. Sergeant Major Rudy Derkinderen is suspected of having murdered a Somali whom he was photographed urinating on.

The circumstances surrounding the death of another child at the paratroopers' base near Kismayo in southern Somalia are also under investigation. According to the testimony of two former paratroopers, the boy, who had been caught trying to steal food, died after being locked in a container for 48 hours.

The Defence Minister, Jean-Pol Poncelet, has promised that any of the paratroopers found guilty of criminal acts in Somalia will be dishonourably discharged. Baert has already left the army but Coelus is now in the navy and Nassel has remained at Tielen.

Mr Poncelet has also ordered an inquiry to establish whether the incidents were part of a broader pattern of abuse of the local population. If it is, he has promised to disband the 3rd battalion.

Fifteen members of the regiment were investigated in 1995 for "acts of sadism and torture" against Somalian civilians.

One paratrooper has been sentenced to five years, following the murder of a Somalian youth, who allegedly had uncovered illegal arms trading by the paratroopers. Belgium is the third country involved in the "Restore Hope" mission to charge its soldiers for serious misdemeanours against Somalian civilians, including rape, torture and murder. In 1995 a group of Canadian paratroopers were investigated for torturing a Somali to death and killing three others.

The charges of indiscipline, racism, and the rituals for new members of the unit led to the Canadian Airborne Regiment being disbanded last year. Earlier this month gruesome photographs were published in a Milan magazine of Italian soldiers torturing a young Somali youth, and abusing and raping a young Somali girl. Two Italian generals involved in "Restore Hope" have subsequently resigned to clear the way for a major investigation of the unit involved, the Folgore (Lightning) Division currently deployed on peacekeeping duties in Albania.

The Italian parliament has set up a major investigation and boards of inquiry of the Italian army are at work. Paratroopers of the Folgore claim that they were specifically trained in methods of torture to aid interrogation. According to one witness Italian soldiers tied a young Somali girl to the front of an armoured carrier and raped her while officers looked on.

The witness told investigators: "When the officers wanted to have fun, everybody went along with it."

Over the weekend an interpreter with the Italian force in Somalia accused a Folgore battalion commander of sexually abusing a 13-year-old Somali youth. The "Restore Hope" mission has become the most controversial of all recent peacekeeping operations undertaken under the UN banner. It was mandated in 1992 to provide medical aid and food after civil order in Somalia collapsed following the overthrow of the Marxist dictator Maj Gen Muhammad Siad Barri, after a 17-year civil war.

The operation was directed by an American admiral, and spearheaded by American Marines. After the murder of 20 Pakistani soldiers in an ambush and the killing and dragging of two American Marines through the streets of Mogadishu, the American command moved from peacekeeping to offensive operations against the warlords running the main Somali cities, principally Mogadishu and Kismayo.

Though they used helicopter gunships and area bombardment, the Americans failed to defeat the leading warlord, Gen Muhammad Farrah Aidid, and eventually the UN forces were ordered to withdraw. A common thread through the accusations against the Belgian, Italian and Canadian forces, is the racism of elite units, particularly airborne units, and their inability to adapt to low-intensity peacekeeping operations.

Last week an Italian paratrooper said: "What's the big deal? They are just niggers anyway."

The head of the UN's peacekeeping department, Under Secretary General Bernard Miyet, said: "The image of the United Nations has been tarnished."

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Anonymous

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 07:40 pm
Jerusalem - The death toll in the Palestinian Intifada climbed again on Friday, with four more Palestinian deaths as the future government continued to take shape with the appointment of a hawkish defence minister and the first Arab to serve on an Israeli cabinet.

The four deaths included two children and a mentally ill vagrant, killed by Israeli gunfire.

Three of those who died were shot on Friday, while the fourth victim succumbed to wounds suffered earlier this week.

Israeli troops shot dead a nine-year-old boy in the West Bank town of El-Bireh after opening fire on a group of children playing with cap guns beneath his family's apartment, said witnesses.

The latest deaths bring to 426 the number of people killed
Ubey Darraj was dead on arrival in hospital after being hit in the chest by a bullet from a heavy calibre machine-gun, said hospital officials.

Shortly afterwards, hospital officials in Gaza announced that a 13-year-old Palestinian boy, Mohammed Mahmoud Hellis, shot on Tuesday, had died. He had been hit in the head while walking home from school near the Karni crossing point between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

Later on Friday, Abdel Karim Issa, 24, died after being shot in the stomach during a clash in the West Bank refugee camp of Kalandia, said a hospital source in nearby Ramallah, where he died.

Earlier, in an incident the Israeli army later acknowledged may have been a tragic mistake, a Palestinian described by Palestinian officials as a mentally ill vagrant was shot dead in the Gaza Strip.

The latest deaths bring to 426 the number of people killed since the Intifada against Israeli occupation broke out late last September.

Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, lashed out at what he called Israel's "dangerous objectives", saying Friday's deaths exposed Israel's violence against the Palestinians for all the world to see.

"Israel's ways have become exposed in front of international public opinion," said Arafat in Gaza City after returning from Libya.

Meanwhile, the government of national unity continued to take shape, with the nomination - for the first time in Israel - of an Arab minister, the nomination of Labour hawk Binyamin Ben Eliezer to the defence ministry and the allocation of three ministries to the extreme right wing.

It is the first time a convention has designated members of Israel's cabinet. Labour Party members gathered in Tel Aviv to select the eight ministers Sharon promised them for joining the unity government.

For the post of foreign minister, Labour rubber-stamped the only candidate, former premier and Nobel peace prize winner Shimon Peres, a strong backer of the national unity coalition who nonetheless said he would quit if the government gave up on the Oslo peace accords.

Meanwhile, the Labour Party chose Salah Tarif, a Druze, as the first Arab to serve in an Israeli cabinet. The 47-year-old father of four and former army commander will be minister without portfolio.
- Sapa-AFP

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Anonymous

Saturday, March 03, 2001 - 07:41 pm
Jerusalem - Police said on Friday they had arrested for questioning a young Israeli woman who spent the night with a Palestinian suspected in two botched bombings, including one that killed a passenger in a service taxi.

The 18-year-old woman is a recent immigrant from the former Soviet Union who lives in the Tel Aviv suburbs, said judicial officials, who did not identify her and imposed a news blackout on the investigation into the woman's involvement in the affair.

The teenager has told investigators that she did not know the Palestinian was carrying explosives with him, public radio said.

Investigators said the woman spent the night with the Palestinian, who left two kilograms of explosives in a bag next to a fast food stand in downtown Tel Aviv. The bomb was discovered in time and defused.

Did not know the Palestinian was carrying explosives
The woman then accompanied the suspected bomber to a service taxi stand in northern Tel Aviv, said witnesses.

The minivan was followed by security officers, who stopped it in northern Israel. The taxi blew up, killing one passenger and wounding nine other people.

Police suspect the Palestinian was on his way to carry out an attack with his explosives

The dead passenger was identified as Claude Knafu, 29, an Israeli of Chilean descent who lived in the northern city of Tiberias.

A police commander complained that the security service Shin Beth, which had spotted the suspected bomber, did not promptly share its information with police.

Soldiers shot and killed the man
"The question of co-ordination between the services must be examined," Tel Aviv police commander Yossi Ssitbon told public radio.

In a separate incident, Israeli soldiers on Friday shot dead a Palestinian described by Palestinian officials as a poor vagrant in the area of the Karni crossing point between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli army said its soldiers shot and killed the man, whose name was not immediately known, as he prepared to set off a bomb in the path of an approaching military convoy in the Gaza Strip, an Israeli military spokesperson said.

"Soldiers saw a man who was preparing to detonate a bomb and shot him, killing him instantly," the spokesman told AFP.

Palestinian hospital officials said the man's body was mangled, having been hit repeatedly by heavy-calibre machine-gun fire and explosive shells.

The incident occurred on the road leading from the Karni crossing to the Jewish settlement of Netzarim.

Saeb al-Ajez, head of Palestinian national security in the northern Gaza Strip, said: "This was a simple, poor man, who always walked through the streets during the day and nights.

"Everyone knew him, including the Israeli army in the area. The Israelis fired on him without warning. They also shot explosive shells at him and many bullets," he said.

"This man was not a danger. This is part of their policy of killing that we condemn. They have transformed Palestinian villages into military shooting zones," added al-Ajez.

The death brings to 423 the number of people killed as a result of Israeli-Palestinian violence that broke out in late September. Of the victims, 347 have been Palestinians. - Sapa-AFP

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MAD MAC

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 09:01 am
Anonymous
I agree, the US will not remain the world sole superpower forever. And truth be told, that is not a bad thing. BUT, and this is a big but, the US has the good some good fortune that has come its way. It is a large country with a low population density. It has plenty of natural resources. It has Canada on its northern border and Mexico on its southern border. Neither country nor the US has irredentist claims. Neither country is capable of attacking the US even were they so inclined, which they are not. The East and West boundaries are hge oceans. The US has thousands of immagrants from all over the world. They bring the best their own countries have to offer in the way of ideas and culture. So, we may not remain the worlds dominant superpower forever, but we should have a reasonably stable and prosperous future. Allah has blessed America.

The other anonymous - or maybe the same one - is there a reason you posted this other crap. I mean, I don't mind a conversation that drifts, but you didn't post anything to go with this nonsense. It's impossible to put this into contest and make a response to your point (s) if you don't make a point.

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MAD MAC

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 09:09 am
Aisli
I wouldn't put too much faith into who some Liberians found preferable to others as far as peacekeeping troops go. Most of the time this kind of thing is linked to political profit by certain political players involved. The Nigerian troops, for all of their flaws in performance, have stuck it out impressively in Sierra Leone and Liberia. These places would have decended into true hell holes without their presence.

BTW it's not as if I'm a Charles Taylor fan, I think he's a scum-bag. I was just pointing out his tribal affiliation.

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The Smart One

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 10:30 am
Lolllllllllllllllllllll


This is so much Fun..........they Leave the Crzy Mad Alone..............so he can have enough Time to Learn.......Himself............and how many different Personalities runing around His........Confuzed Little Checken Head....LOL..........Look at u ..Waalane.....How can u leave your Mail here........and expect u to believe u r........ONe and Only MAd????? what I mean Writing to u.......will not Prove anything......How came? how would I know who am I writing to...........Mad? Galool? PG? or the latest Victim Charecter.....Asleee? u r so really MAD.....May God help u..........to understand yourself...

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 04:13 pm
Four Killed in Suicide Bombing in Israel
Photos


By Michele Gershberg

NETANYA, Israel (Reuters) - A suicide bomber killed himself and three Israelis in an explosion that rocked the heart of the Israeli coastal city of Netanya Sunday, a day after Islamic militants vowed to launch fresh attacks.

Angry Israelis tried to lynch an Arab, seriously wounding the man, in the same city following the attack, while Palestinians mourning two young men shot dead in the West Bank Saturday shouted: ``We took revenge today in Netanya.''

Police said the Israelis killed when the bomber detonated explosives at a street crossing were an 84-year-old man and two women, one a 70-year-old immigrant from Ukraine. At least 68 people were wounded.

Hours later, no claim of responsibility had been made for the blast, not far from the site of an explosion on New Year's Day which wounded dozens of people and for which the militant Islamic group Hamas claimed responsibility.

Hamas officials said they did not know who caused Sunday's explosion.

``It's not important who did it -- whether it be Hamas or (Islamic) Jihad or any other faction,'' Hamas spokesman Abdel-Aziz Rantissi said. ``The important thing is that our Palestinian people are alive and resisting and will not accept occupation or any Zionist aggression.''

The suicide bombing was the latest fatal attack in a five-month-old Palestinian revolt against Israeli occupation and took the number of Israelis killed to 65. A total of 341 Palestinians and 13 Israeli Arabs have also died.

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MAD MAC

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 11:40 pm
The self-proclaimed smart one
I noticed you didn't E-Mail me. What a chicken ••••.

Anonymous. Ahhhhhh, and your point?

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MAD MAC

Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 11:58 pm
Formerguest and Asad

Hey a friend of mine just told me about an Imam who came to their church (baptist - Protestant) and gave a joint sermon with the minister. In his sermons (speech if you will) he talked about Issas position in Islam and the similarities between Islam and Christianity. I'm sure he was trying to convert people, hence his rationale for conducting the joint service, but they did all pray together and have a discussion afterward as well. My question is, is this consider some form of Da'wa? Is this a common approach or relatively rare? I heard it was fairly well received and he fielded a lot of questions.

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ANON

Monday, March 05, 2001 - 01:48 am
"Hey a friend of mine just told me about an Imam who came to their church (baptist - Protestant) and gave a joint sermon with the minister."

looks like the imam was invited to come to the church, right?

"In his sermons (speech if you will) he talked about Issas position in Islam and the similarities between Islam and Christianity."

that is a good topic to talk about in church.

"I'm sure he was trying to convert people"

that is what an imam suppose to do. ;-)

"hence his rationale for conducting the joint service, but they did all pray together and have a discussion afterward as well."

pray together how? i would think the christians didn't perform salaat together with the imam at the church. ;-)

"My question is, is this consider some form of Da'wa? Is this a common approach or relatively rare?

i heard it happens in many churchs and as far as i know it is a form of da'wa.

"I heard it was fairly well received and he fielded a lot of questions."

i think he did his job to convey the message. it is up to the members of the church to accept or reject the message. ;-)

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Anonymous

Monday, March 05, 2001 - 06:39 pm
Pope to pray in mosque


The Pope is continuing his trip to the Holy Land

John Paul II is to become the first leader of the Catholic Church to set foot in a mosque when he visits Syria in May, a church official said on Monday.
The Pope is hoping that by entering the Umayyed mosque in Damascus - the site of the tomb of John the Baptist - he will underline his attempts to bring Christianity and Islam closer together.

Umayyed mosque
Built in eighth century AD
The site previously held pagan temples and a Christian church
It contains the tomb of John the Baptist
It is the oldest stone mosque in the Muslim world


Officials organising the Pope's itinerary, said it would be the first time that Christians and Muslims would pray together in an organised way.

The Pope, 80, would lead the Christian side of the prayer and Syria's mufti, Sheikh Ahmed Kataro, the Muslim side.

Footsteps of Paul

In 1986, Pope John Paul was the first Pontiff to enter a synagogue after he visited one in Rome.

The mosque visit is scheduled for 6 May in the middle of the pope's three-day pilgrimage to the Holy Lands, which has already taken him to Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian territories.


The Umayyad mosque: Site of the tomb of John the Baptist

Besides Syria, Pope John Paul wants to visit Greece and Malta to follow in the footsteps of the Apostle Paul, who was known as Saul of Tarsus before he was converted on the road to Damascus.

The mosque, known as the Great Mosque of Damascus and one of Islam's most celebrated shrines was once the site of an Aramaic temple.

Then, in the first century AD, a Roman temple dedicated to Jupiter was built on the site, before being converted into a church dedicated to Saint John the Baptist.

Saint John is also venerated by Muslims as the prophet Yahya.

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 12:57 am
Comrades
Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the Popes visit. Interesting - Pope praying at a Moaque. I would have expected that to be controversial. I never ceased to be surprised.

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Lily

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:46 am
all i can say for the afgan "government" is that they give a bad image of islam. i hope, no i pray, that somlia never has such a regime, amen.

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reply

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 06:04 am
Aslee
i would like to have your e-mail, to ask you a question.
Please could give me you e-mail?
You cant give it privately in fxasan@yahoo.com
Thanks

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ANON

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 06:18 am
"I didn't know about the Popes visit. Interesting - Pope praying at a Moaque."

yes, it is interesting. if he performs prayer in the masjid, he would have to follow behind the imam bowing, kneeling and prostrading------but since he is sick old guy (i heard he has health problems), he can't do that. ;-)

"I would have expected that to be controversial. I never ceased to be surprised."

why would it be controversial? it is not like the pope (like the popes before him) is crusade to take over the majids. ;-)

"all i can say for the afgan "government" is that they give a bad image of islam."

i don't think they do. saudi arabia and somalia do. ;-)

"i hope, no i pray, that somlia never has such a regime, amen."

lily, if you were the regime leader in somalia, would you have big bhuda idols in somalia----where bhudists come to worship? i pray that somalia never has a regime like that where lily is the leader. ;-)

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Just Wondering

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 08:42 am
Lily, I have a question for you. Did the Prophet of Allah Maxamad (saw) and Prophet Ibraahim (saw) also give bad image of Islam when they smashed idols people used to worship?

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 11:08 am
Asad
But of course not you want me to be the leader of Somalia remember???

Check this out, I was just watching Q&A with Riz Khan, and he had this Saudi Doctor on. This guy was in charge of coordinating visits to the Hajj and hey were doing a special on it. One viewer sent in an E-Mail asking why non-Muslims can not come and this guy responds with anyone is allowed to come, not just Muslims. Now I know something was wrong with that answer, and I'm just a kufaar. Is there a "rest of the Story" here, or was this guy just out to lunch?

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ANON

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 11:16 am
"Asad But of course not you want me to be the leader of Somalia remember???"

remember what!? ;-)

"Check this out, I was just watching Q&A with Riz Khan, and he had this Saudi Doctor on. This guy was in charge of coordinating visits to the Hajj and hey were doing a special on it. One viewer sent in an E-Mail asking why non-Muslims can not come and this guy responds with anyone is allowed to come, not just Muslims."

i think i told you before that even clinton (now bush) could to come to hajj


"Now I know something was wrong with that answer, and I'm just a kufaar."

kufars know that they are not welcome in hajj and in heaven. ;-)

"Is there a "rest of the Story" here, or was this guy just out to lunch?"

i don't know what he was saying, but the truth is if one wants to come, all he has to do is to become a muslim or say he is a muslim and declare this: ASH HADU AN LAA ILAAHI ILA ALLAH WA ASH HADU ANNA MUHAMMADAN RASUULU ALLAH. that is the only way he can come into the hajj. ;-)

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Fanatic

Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 10:32 pm
Bad image sisters and brothers.
What you talking about "bad images"
What the taliban is doing is basic creed of islam and that excatly what the profet did when he came to haram alshariif in mecca.
Its an obligatory to every muslim to destroy these Asnaam specielly when they are in a muslim society. I wonder why the early muslims left it.
May be they couldn't afford to destroy these huge Asnaam.
The Taliban Amir said:
(These statue are there to be worshipped, and leaving them for coming generations is just inviting them to shirk)

Remember you cann't defend these asnaam.
Good Guys The Taliban.
Just doing what Allah almighty ordered.
Peace to you all

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Lily

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:26 am
i wasn't talking about the damned statues, they can do what they like with that. i didn't make clear what i was refferring to, it was that they execute anyone for absolutely anything. there are only a number of things in the koran that you can actually kill people for, surely you can't just kill people because of man laws? like allowing 11 year olds to blow out the brains of their sisters, that is very unislamic don't you think?

asad lol, no i wouldn't want to ba any leader of anything. besides, they won't exactly allow women will they? thought not.

for anyone in the who lives in the uk and saw that programme on chanel 4 about afganistan will know what i mean. (and no they did not lie about anything, it was a secret camera)

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ANON

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:45 am
"asad lol, no i wouldn't want to ba any leader of anything."

you just pray for any other leaders for somalia---as long as they are not like afghanistan leaders, right? ;-)

lily, let me ask you, would you hope for somalia (no pray for somalia) an islamic leader like umar bin khitaab? ;-)

"besides, they won't exactly allow women will they? thought not."

if they would not allow a woman for a leader, do you think is this also an islamic? ;-)

"for anyone in the who lives in the uk and saw that programme on chanel 4 about afganistan will know what i mean. (and no they did not lie about anything, it was a secret camera)"

do you think saudi arabian leaders and the ones in somalia give a good image of islam? ;-)

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fg.

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:29 am
MAD.

I have no answer to your question about the man who went to the church for da'wah. I can't really say it for sure. However, I visited this website and saw this:


Question:

There are many churches here. Is it permissible to go into them to hold discussions with the priests there? Is it permissible to go in just to look at them and see what the people do there?


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible for scholars and knowledgeable people to enter churches in order to call the people there to Islam. But we should not enter them just to look around, because there is no benefit in doing so, and there is the fear that the Muslim may be influenced by them, especially if he is ignorant about his own religion and cannot refute the confusion that they will direct towards him.


From Fataawaa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 13/257 (www.islam-qa.com)

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fg.

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:36 am
By the Way Mad.

I think the guy who said everyone can go to mekka was out for lunch. Good expression. May be he felt exposed if he told the truth. A simple and hypocritic answer would have been to contact the saudi government to know the answer for surety.

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Lily

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 04:17 am
who is umar bin khitab? (please excuse my ignorance)

i think what you're trying to say is be a muslim as in complete or nothing, right?

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MAD MAC

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 04:47 am
F.G. & Asad
You know they were on the subject when they ran out of time. I think the Saudi guy (He was a government rep) was trying to avoid coming right out and saying "Look, lousy Kufaars can't come and that's that" because he was on international television and he didn'T want to coem off like a closed minded dick. But the whole time I was thinking "I don't think non-believers can enter Mekkah under any circumstances" But he definately did not say or allude to that. HE seemed to be trying to obfuscate the issue.

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ANON

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 07:21 am
"who is umar bin khitab? (please excuse my ignorance)"

ask your sheikh who is umar bin khitab. i don't know any muslim who does not know umar bin khitab. maybe you know him in another name.

"i think what you're trying to say is be a muslim as in complete or nothing, right?"

i don't what you mean be a muslim as in complete or nothing so i dont' know what you are asking. can you rephrase the question? let me rephrase my questions to you also. what kind of leaders do you want (or pray) for somalia? do you think it is islamic for woman to be a leader------to lead men in prayer-----to lead the muslims? ;-)

"But the whole time I was thinking "I don't think non-believers can enter Mekkah under any circumstances" But he definately did not say or allude to that. HE seemed to be trying to obfuscate the issue."

maybe he does not know his religion very well. maybe he also does not know who umar bin khitaab. ;-)

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Anonymous

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 08:12 am
Who is umar bin khitab?

Answer:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/00_umar_bin_al_khattab.htm

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Lily

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:46 pm
asad why do you have to be such a smartass, can't you just tell me? i thought it was charitable for muslims to share their knowledge with others?

im going to check that site out now, i'll be back.

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ANON

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 03:10 pm
"asad why do you have to be such a smartass"

lol------>smartass. ;-). is smartass one a word? ;-). is it an insult or compliment? whatever it is, it is a funny word. ;-)

"can't you just tell me?"

yes, i can, but you just surprised me for not knowing who umar bin khitab is!. i don't know any muslim who does not know umar bin khitab. how long have you been a mulsim? ;-)

"i thought it was charitable for muslims to share their knowledge with others?"

it is true that it is charitable for muslims to share knowledge with others, but i'm not that smart(ass)----so i thought someone who is smart than me could do deed. i told you to ask your sheikh who umar bin khitab is. you do have a sheikh, don't you? ;-)

"im going to check that site out now, i'll be back."

okay, may you will answer the questions i put to you then-----after you learned something about the man (umar)----- let me know if a leader like him is one you want to pray for a country like somalia or not, okay? ;-)

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Anonymous

Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 06:14 pm
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/

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MAD MAC

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:33 am
Asad
Smart-ass is a guy who always gives condescending, antagoizing responses - this is not the dictionary definition I'm sure, but an accurrate one nevertheless. AND YOU, Sahib, definately are a smart-ass. OR, as we would say in the Army, a smart-ass motherfucker. Just like me. Picture me and now you know what a smart-ass is. He definately meant it as an instult, but coming from me it's a compliment.

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ANON

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 07:54 am
"Asad Smart-ass is a guy who always gives condescending, antagoizing responses - this is not the dictionary definition I'm sure, but an accurrate one nevertheless."

well, i can tell you that i'm not here to patronize and antagonize anybody and im' not here to charm or get somebody on my side. some people say i'm harsh to people and others say i'm here to win over people. people (you included) are entitle to say things about me (good or bad), but i'm not going to complain; i'm going to have fun. i don't take things said here seriously, but if people take it seriously, it is not my business. ;-)

"AND YOU, Sahib, definately are a smart-ass. OR, as we would say in the Army, a smart-ass motherfucker. Just like me. Picture me and now you know what a smart-ass is."

i've been called many other names like those before, but i just laugh at them. ;-)

"He definately meant it as an instult"

and that is fine with me and i'm not going to return the favor and exchange insults with her (i think lily is she). ;-)

"but coming from me it's a compliment."

that is fine with me too and i'm not going to return the favor either. ;-)

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Lily

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 09:45 am
mad mac i didn't mean it as an insult, im not here to insult anyone, i said it light heartedly (if that is a word asad).

well that site has so much info it's going to take me apsolutely ages to read it, but eventually i will finish it. from what i read he sounds quiet hounorable.

what i meant by being a complete muslim is that you have to do absolutely everything by the book and not take some and leave some, is that what you mean? what's wrong with suadi arabia (apart from the fact that they suck up to americans).
i dont know that much about somali leaders but they can't be as bad as the ones of afganistan can they?

i personaly think women would make great leaders if men were'nt so weak. anyways, who am i to dispute with god?

by the way i've been a muslim all my life but i was ignorant about a lot of things untill recently. i have really never heard about that man.

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ANON

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:58 am
"mad mac i didn't mean it as an insult, im not here to insult anyone, i said it light heartedly (if that is a word asad)."

a good word, uh? anyway, i thought it was a funny word. ;-)

"well that site has so much info it's going to take me apsolutely ages to read it, but eventually i will finish it. from what i read he sounds quiet hounorable."

let'm know when you read all about the man and then tell me if a man like him would be the one you might pray for the somalis in somalia? ;-)

"what i meant by being a complete muslim is that you have to do absolutely everything by the book and not take some and leave some, is that what you mean?"

well, when muslims take some and leave some in what Allah says they are going to fail (not going to succeed) and that is what we have in somalia and in many other places, right? ;-)

"what's wrong with suadi arabia (apart from the fact that they suck up to americans)."

the royal family in saudi arabia who rule the country give islam bad name, right? if you as a woman go to saudi arabia, you can not drive a car. do you think this is islam and this is what america tells them to do? ;-)

"i dont know that much about somali leaders but they can't be as bad as the ones of afganistan can they?"

they can be and worst.

"i personaly think women would make great leaders if men were'nt so weak."

are you saying women are stronger than men? if you think men are so weak, why women are not leaders?

"anyways, who am i to dispute with god?"

i don't who you are. ;-)

"by the way i've been a muslim all my life but i was ignorant about a lot of things untill recently. i have really never heard about that man."

maybe it is time you find a good sheikh or sheikhat who will teach you islam. are their masjids near where you live? ;-)

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Lily

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:22 pm
yeah there are lot's of mosques in london, but they are devided into sunna followers, shias (if that's how you spell it)and others. besides i don't know how i would approach him/her. i 'll get round to it. by the way do the people at the islamic centre count?

i wasn't talking about physical strengh, anyways, i'm not going to start gender argument with you. ( you're probably going to say 'but you did'). women aren't leaders because men won't let them. they have to work twice as hard just to be recognised at the same level as men.

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ANON

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:48 pm
"yeah there are lot's of mosques in london, but they are devided into sunna followers, shias (if that's how you spell it)and others. besides i don't know how i would approach him/her. i 'll get round to it."

are you saying you have never been into any masjid or are you saying you don't go these kind of masjids because of sunna followers, shias and others? ;-)

"by the way do the people at the islamic centre count?"

i guess there are masjids called islamic centers. is that where you attend? ;-)


"i wasn't talking about physical strengh"

okay. ;-)

"anyways, i'm not going to start gender argument with you(you're probably going to say 'but you did').

i thought you did. ;-)

"women aren't leaders because men won't let them."

why-----because men are physically stronger than women or men are weaker than women or there is something else in the work? ;-)

"they have to work twice as hard just to be recognised at the same level as men."

are you saying men don't have to work harder because they already have recognition-----and that is why they are the leaders? ;-)

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Lily

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 02:04 pm
i do go to mosques but you were talking about finding a sheik. they usually hang around mosques right? well, last ramadan i went to this mosque and it was a shia mosque and after the prayer they started to praise god, the prophet (pbuh) and all these other people i never heard of before (maybe i should know anout them too?). i was just saying, it wasn't an argument or anything.

yeah i go to the islamic centre you can do more there, with all the books and stuff.

what i meant by men being weak was that you siad do i think women could lead men into prayer? well people would argue that women shouldn't because men would stare at her butt or something, that's what i mean by men being weak. men do have to work hard but women have to work even harder, call me biased or whatever but that's my view.

anyways im trailing way off the subject i was just wondering who that man was.

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ANON

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 06:39 pm
"i do go to mosques but you were talking about finding a sheik. they usually hang around mosques right?"
if sheikhs usually hang around masjids, there are people who learn from them. if you find a masjid, you find sheikhs and other people there, right? ;-). your father can teach you what he knows about islam-----that is if he goes (or went) to the masjid, right? ;-)

"well, last ramadan i went to this mosque and it was a shia mosque"

was it good?

"and after the prayer they started to praise god"

that was good. ;-)

"the prophet (pbuh)"

do you mean they asked Allah to send His blessings upon muhammad? ;-)

"and all these other people i never heard of before (maybe i should know anout them too?)."

you never heard of ali and fadima, either?!! ;-)

"i was just saying, it wasn't an argument or anything."

i didn't think it was an argument. ;-)

"yeah i go to the islamic centre you can do more there, with all the books and stuff."

i think there are sheikhs who usually hang around there too. ;-)

"what i meant by men being weak was that you siad do i think women could lead men into prayer?"

i also said or asked------can they "lead the muslims?" for example, is it good that a muslim wife lead her muslim husband? ;-)

"well people would argue that women shouldn't because men would stare at her butt or something, that's what i mean by men being weak."

that is a good point. i know i'm a weak when it comes to women bending front of me. ;-)


"men do have to work hard but women have to work even harder, call me biased or whatever but that's my view."

but if they work harder than men, they should be leading men, right? ;-)

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MAD MAC

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 08:46 am
A Bunch of Muslims have taken over my conversation. Oh well, what are ya gonna do? That's what I get for conversing on Islam page.

Yo Asad, who are you picking for the Barrera-Hamed fight? Most observers think that Hamed has too much foot speed for Barrera and his explosive power will make it hard for Barrera to maintain pressure. Still Hamed has been put down hard by a host of lessar lights which should make it interesting. Are you going to watch it?

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ANON

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 10:22 am
"A Bunch of Muslims have taken over my conversation. Oh well, what are ya gonna do? That's what I get for conversing on Islam page."

lol

"Yo Asad, who are you picking for the Barrera-Hamed fight?"

naseem hamad.

"Most observers think that Hamed has too much foot speed for Barrera and his explosive power will make it hard for Barrera to maintain pressure."

i think so thoo.

"Still Hamed has been put down hard by a host of lessar lights which should make it interesting."

i agree and he proved that he can come back and finish the fight with elegantly while sending his opponents to the hospital. ;-)

"Are you going to watch it?

yes, i will, insha-Allah.

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Mad-Man

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:50 am
Smart one!!
u should realize Mad-Mac is suffering from Schizophrenia.
this guy needs some serious help ASAP!
Since 'a bunch of Muslims have taken over his conversation' all his other different aliases have disappeared!(i guess they cant either take part in the ongoing discussion? hahahaha.... pretty funny huh!).

Am sure his mental disorder has got alot to do with da real sh*t he went thru while in combat with real worriors back in da horn of Africa!!

Yo..... i know ur a retired foool, y not make use of ur Social Security/pension benefits and seek meical help!

Mad-Man!

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Lily

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 06:14 am
yeah yeah, stop acting so amused, i do know about fatima and ali. but it wasn't them only, it was like a list of other people, i don't really rememeber but it was confusing.

is it really important to know about the history of islam? i mean if you learn about the religion and what god wants you to do is that not enough?

yes there is nothing wrong with a muslim woman leading her muslim husband. but it would be better if they were just equals.

mad mac, too bad.

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 07:00 am
Lily,

May Allah bless you. It is so important that we should know about our Islamic history. I bet you know some history about the country you currently reside, right?

Secondly, sister men and women are not Equal. Allah subhanahu waa tacali had made them different so that they could help each other. Men excel women in certain areas and so does women. Without these differences, we wouldn't have been enjoying each other's company. There is a hikma(wisdom)behind it as there is a wisdom behind having day and night.

Everyone whether is a man or a woman has to work hard in obtaining Allah's reward. There is no single ayah or hadith which tells that believing women will be less rewarded than believing men for performing the same task. But since Allah knows how delicate the nature of women is, has choosen for us to do things that He knows we are capable of and choosen for men other tasks.

Lily, sister every good deed starts with a small step. May Allah guide you to it.

Lastly but not least, sister "the non-equal" standard don't comprehend it as it is that we us women are "inferior" to men as they are not "inferior" to us.

Note: If you just start your journey in the Islamic literature, you will be so much amazed by muslim women scholars and how they are being honored equally by muslims and non-muslims.
And May Allah reward you for seeking the truth knowledge of Islam.

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 08:11 am
"yeah yeah, stop acting so amused, i do know about fatima and ali."

i'm not acting amused; i'm amazed that you as a muslima don't know them. ;-)

"but it wasn't them only, it was like a list of other people"

maybe you heard the names of prophets of Allah like ibrahim which you don’t' know. muslims ask Allah to send His blessings upon ibrahim and other prophets too. ;-)

"is it really important to know about the history of islam?"

yes, it is. ;-)

"i mean if you learn about the religion and what god wants you to do is that not enough?"

if you read the Quran and learn the sunnah, you would know the history of prophets of Allah and their names and the people who were against them and those who followed. ;-)

"yes there is nothing wrong with a muslim woman leading her muslim husband, but it would be better if they were just equals."


but equality of rights and opportunities is of course not quite the same things as "uniformity" or identity, is it? Allah created both of male and female and He knows what He is talking about when He said men are overseers over women and women are to follow and obey their husband and for men there is a degree above their women, right? ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 08:21 am
" and for men there is a degree above women"

and where is that said?

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 08:54 am
"and where is that said?"

somewhere in the Quran, anonymous. check albaqra at the end of ayah 228. ;-). did you think i was lying about what Allah said? ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 11:24 am
Allah(swt) said in His book:
"Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. And it is not lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have right Similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable, but men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in power"

Akhi, this is the ayah that you have mentioned. in the latter part, it only mentions that due to economic differences that could exist between men and women, man's rights and liabilities are considered little greater than the woman's. In other words, it is Allah's love and protection for us(women) that He ordered men to look after our needs even if we no longer are wives to our husbands. See how Allah is so merciful.

Allah(swt) said: "Men and women who have surrendered, believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, humble men and humble women, men and women who give in charity, men who fast and women who fast, men and women who guard their chastity, men and women who remember God in abundance---for them God has prepared forgiveness and a great reward"

Women and Men are not equal(true) but it was never mentioned that men are "inferior" to women nor women are "inferior" to men.

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 11:43 am
"Akhi, this is the ayah that you have mentioned. in the latter part, it only mentions that due to economic differences that could exist between men and women, man's rights and liabilities are considered little greater than the woman's.""

equality of rights and opportunities is of course not quite the same things as "uniformity" or identity, but economic differences are not the only reason men have a degree over them. there is something else too-----that Allah said men are overseers over women------by reason of that wherewith Allah has made men excel over women. ;-)

"In other words, it is Allah's love and protection for us(women) that He ordered men to look after our needs even if we no longer are wives to our husbands....Women and Men are not equal(true) but it was never mentioned that men are "inferior" to women nor women are "inferior" to men."

if economic was the only thing, there were always women who had more money than men during prophets time. the prophet was married to one of them. ;-)

"Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah has made one of them excel over another and by reason of what they spend of their riches. So the righteous women are obedient and watchers in husband's absence by the aid and protection of Allah. And those wives whose refractoriness you fear, admonish them and avoid them in beds and beat them; but if they obey you, don't seek a way against them. Verity Allah is ever Lofty, Grand" Nisa 43.

"See how Allah is so merciful."

yes, i see, but do you see it? ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:20 pm
Allah (swt) said in His book:
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, beacuse Allah has given the one more(strength) than the other and because they suppost them from their means. Therefore the righeous women are devoutly obedient and the guard in(the husband's)absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear Disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them(first), (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them(lightly)
But if they return to obedience, seek not against them....for Allah is most High, Great(above all)"Nisa:35

akhi, this ayah mentions that the good wife is obedient and harmonious in her husband's presence and in his absence guards his reputation and property and her own virtue as ordined by Allah.
Secondly, in case of family jars FOUR steps are mentioned:
(1)verbal advise or admonition
(2)if not sex relations maybe suspended
(3)if this is not sufficient some slight physical correction maybe administered(but imam shaifi considers this inadvisable though permissible and all authorities are unanimous in deprecating any sort of cruelty even of the nagging kind.
(4) if all this fails, a family council is recommened as this ayah shows:
" if ye fear a breah between them twain appoint(two)arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers, if they seek to set things aright, Allah will cause their reconciliation:for Allah hath full knowldge and is acquired with all things"

Yes, i know that prophet(pbuh) had protected and maintained the trade of his wife Khadija.

akhi, "paradise is at the feet of mothers" do you think by the reasoning of it that mothers(women) have degree over fathers(men)?

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:36 pm
"Allah desires that He shall lighten things for you (your burden----He seeks not only to confer benefits on some but also to make light burden) and (because) people have ben created a weakling (subject to be inclined by desire; unable, if left to him or her and unaided by Divine guidance, to avoid pitfalls. so providence, in Allah's infinate mercy and wisdom, has chalked out a way for men and women, safe, straight and free from dangers). O you who believe! devour not your property among yourselves unlawfully, but let there be a trading among you by mutual agreement; and kill not yourselves. Verily Allah is to you ever Merciful (and so He promulgates laws and ordinances so benefical to both men and women). And whoever does that in transgression and wrong himself or herself (overstepping the bonds of the law----comitts murder or suicide) We shall soon (at his or her death) roast in fire, and with Allah that is ever easy. If you shun the grievous sins from which you have been prohibited, We will expiate from you your misdeeds, and make you enter a noble entrance (in heaven). And do not covet (O men and women) that (the inborn excellence implanted by nature, not that which can be acquired) wherewith Allah has excelled (without any exertion on your part---the myth of the absolute equality of men and women----some classes of mankind----privileged with superior brain, wealth or superior physical strengh) one of you (male sex) above another (female sex). To men (however, in spite of their physical and mental superiority) shall be the portion (in the hereafter) of what they earn (through their moral acts-----in matters spiritual men as such can have no advantage over women), and to women (despite the terrible natural handicap they suffer from) shall be the portion (in the hereafter) of what they earn (through their moral acts---the purport is: in spite of many and varied differences between men and women in their physical and mental make-up, in matters of spiritual grace and in acts leading to moral perfection there is no disparity at all between the two sexes.-----in God's sight as responsible moral agents both are equal). And (if you are keen on acquring merit in His sight) ask Allah for some of His grace (in matters of your moral perfection and spritual development, instead of longing for absolute equality in physical and mental equipment). Verily Allah is Knower of everything (and He shall judge and requite each one of His creatures according to his or her merit).Nisa 29----.

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:49 pm
"Yes, i know that prophet(pbuh) had protected and maintained the trade of his wife Khadija."

again, economic differences are not the only reason men have a degree over them. there is something else too. Allah also said men are overseers over women:

1-by reason of that wherewith Allah has made men excel over women.

2-by reason of what they spend of their riches. ;-)

if economic was the only thing, the women who had more money than men during prophets time would have been told to have excelence over their husbands, right? ;-)

"akhi, "paradise is at the feet of mothers" do you think by the reasoning of it that mothers(women) have degree over fathers(men)?"

you are talking about in matters spiritual degree one may do to honor his mother-----which men or women have no advantage over one another. ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:50 pm
sister Lily so do you see women need not work harder than men or vice versa. Everyone should do his/her best in obeying Allah's commands. No one is better than the other except the one(he or she) who has the best Eman and Taqwa :-)

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:54 pm
anonymous, so why women are not leaders, even if they have more money than men, then? ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:05 pm
Women are SMARTER than men. They know what is important in life. Let the man do the hard work and get exhausted. That's why you are here. To work for the women. To support them and feed them! SLAVES :O All over the world women survive the men. Why?? :O I am sure if Allah is out there it's a woman! Deifinitely! LOL!

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:25 pm
"Women are SMARTER than men."

really? are you sure that is not generalization?

"They know what is important in life.

they are smart because they don't want to be leaders, right? leadership is not important to them, right? ;-)

"Let the man do the hard work and get exhausted. That's why you are here. To work for the women. To support them and feed them! SLAVES. All over the world women survive the men. " Why??" ;-)

i thought you said "women need not work harder than men or vice versa." ! i wonder who does the most cooking and cleaning at homes? ;-)

"I am sure if Allah is out there"

lol----->if Allah is out there. ;-)

"it's a woman!"

are you sure? ;-)


"Deifinitely! LOL!"

i thought you said women are smart! ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:41 pm
ANON, I am not the first anon... So I never said "women need not work harder than men"... But I can see that YOUR brain is working OVERTIME... Good, keep up the HARD work, LOL!
Because you will get a surprise after your death,
and the weaker the better :O

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:46 pm
The worlds largest magnifying glasses are a man's eyes watching himself in the mirror.... That's why men NEED to be leaders... And why women LAUGH behing their backs... Let the exhausted ones go first.... Satisfied?

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:48 pm
"ANON, I am not the first anon... So I never said "women need not work harder than men"

okay, but tell me why women are not leaders? does men work harder than women and is that why they are the leaders?

also, if you are a muslim women (say you are over 20 yrs old) can you give yourself away like a man in your age can? ;-)

"But I can see that YOUR brain is working OVERTIME"

not really. ;-)


"Good, keep up the HARD work, LOL!"

in the brain, right? ;-)

"Because you will get a surprise after your death"

lol----a surpirse after your death. ;-) why? will you also get a surprise after your death? ;-)


"and the weaker the better"

who is the weaker? ;-)

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Anonymous

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:50 pm
What does is Lol mean? Can anyone explain to me

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 01:54 pm
You are the weakest, coz you are the BELIEVER...
And I just explained to you why women let the men be leaders..
And did I say that your small grey are goodworking even if they work HARD?? I don't think so...? I will not get a surprise after my death coz I know THE ANSWER.

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:04 pm
"You are the weakest, coz you are the BELIEVER"

you don't believe anything, whitegirlnorway and is that why you are strong------because you don't beleive anything? ;-)

"And I just explained to you why women let the men be leaders."

women don't believe and they let men be leaders-----therefore women are strong and men are weak, is that what you are saying? ;-)

"And did I say that your small grey are goodworking even if they work HARD?? I don't think so...?"

what are you saying? ;-)

"I will not get a surprise after my death coz I know THE ANSWER."

so you believe something and you know what is there for you after your death eventhough you have not seen it, therefore you woul dnot be suprised, right? but didnt' you say you are not a BELIEVER? ;-)

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:05 pm
ANON, why so quiet?? Are your 2 small grey fighting?? Or are you watching yourself in the mirror??

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:12 pm
And what do YOU know about ME knowing or not? Don't jump to conclutions here... You may fall and break your neck... Now; Do me a favor, please read about the magnifying glasses... Man, your brain is SLOW, eh?? Did the poor small grey kill each other?
I NEVER said I am not a BELIEVER... You are definitely going to break your neck here...
Well, if you know what's out there, why shouldn't I? And HOW do you know that YOU are right and I am wrong? Please enlighten me?

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:21 pm
"And what do YOU know about ME knowing or not?"

just what you tell me. ;-)

"Don't jump to conclutions here"

i'm only asking questions. ;-)

"You may fall and break your neck"

i'm sitting. ;-)

"Now; Do me a favor, please read about the magnifying glasses"

i don't need them. ;-)

"Man, your brain is SLOW, eh??"

lol

"Did the poor small grey kill each other?

lol----small grew kill each other. ;-)

"I NEVER said I am not a BELIEVER"

You are also the weakest, coz you are the BELIEVER, right? ;-)

"You are definitely going to break your neck here..."

i'm? ;-) if that is the case, i'll do you a favor so i would not break my neck and get magnifying glasss, okay? ;-)

"Well, if you know what's out there, why shouldn't I?"

who said you should not? ;-)

"And HOW do you know that YOU are right and I am wrong? Please enlighten me? "

i can't enlighten you because i don't know what you believe. what do you believe since you said you are a believer? ;-)

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JB

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:26 pm
ANON why are you arguing with Muslim sisters? I don’t know what you want to accomplish by putting them down. You have already stated in the past that you don’t come on somalinet to teach or to learn or to give dawah! What we do know is that you will argue with everyone or just about. It is hilarious that you rely on Hadith to prove your point about women and leadership and you will reject Hadith when it suits you. If you intend to read and understand the Quran, I suggest you rely on classical commentaries of the quran. Humble yourself in from of the Prophet (PBUH), Sahaba and scholars (the inheritors of the Prophet). Your comprehension is not all that amigo. Leave the sisters alone…I also advice the sisters to leave ANON alone as I’m sure he will not leave you’ll alone. It would seem his sole purpose an somalinet ( seeing that its not for the purpose of Dawah) is to pick a fight with anyone who disagrees with HIS understanding of the Quran (and he will use hadith when it suits his version or reject hadith)…..we eagerly await your Tafsir brother ANON.

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:28 pm
Well, first of all, I NEVER said I was a believer either...so...? And alot of people have broken their necks by falling out of their chair...So you better be careful.... Dear, of course you don't need magnifying glasses, you already got 2, you were born with them...lol!
You seem to know what YOU belive in, so are you going to enlighten me or not?? I am waiting....

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WhitregirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:33 pm
Sorry to disappoint you JB, but I am NOT a muslim, so I am allowed to kick ANON's ASS, and he mine... Now, do you need a good kick in the butt too? :O You know, the past is the past and you can't get it back, so maybe ANON is ready to learn and teach now?? Let the man speak for himself!

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:38 pm
"ANON why are you arguing with Muslim sisters?

i don't discriminate. ;-)

"I don’t know what you want to accomplish by putting them down."

that was not my intention and i didn't. ;-)

"You have already stated in the past that you don’t come on somalinet to teach or to learn or to give dawah!"

am i teaching and doing dawah by arguing with muslim girls? ;-)

"What we do know is that you will argue with everyone or just about."

i don't discriminate anyone. ;-)

"It is hilarious that you rely on Hadith to prove your point about women and leadership"

what is wrong with relying on good hadith, but where did i rely on hadith on this thread? ;-)

"and you will reject Hadith when it suits you."

i told you that when it comes to the Quran and hadith and they conflict each other, i'll take the Quranic saying in any day. i dont' believe the prophets of Allah preach lies as you told us before. ;-)


"If you intend to read and understand the Quran, I suggest you rely on classical commentaries of the quran."

who are the classical commentaries of the Quran? ;-)

"Humble yourself in from of the Prophet (PBUH)"

i don't believe the prophet told lies and go against what Allah told him------that ibrahim was a man of truth, a prophet. ;-)

"Sahaba and scholars (the inheritors of the Prophet)."

not all sahaba and scholars agree each other. ;-)

"Your comprehension is not all that amigo."

and yours is? ;-)

"Leave the sisters alone"

i don't take orders. ;-)

"I also advice the sisters to leave ANON alone as I’m sure he will not leave you’ll alone."

lol

"It would seem his sole purpose an somalinet ( seeing that its not for the purpose of Dawah)"

i thought you said i did dawah? ;-)

"is to pick a fight with anyone who disagrees with HIS understanding of the Quran"

i don't discriminate. ;-)

"and he will use hadith when it suits his version or reject hadith)"

are there weak (daciif) and strong (qawi) hadeeth that muslims accept and reject? ;-). i also know muslims who reject the Quranic sayings and accept hadeth. ;-)

"we eagerly await your Tafsir brother ANON."

lol. what about yours? ;-)

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JB

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:41 pm
The two anonymouses before you were muslim sisters :) your not a muslim...I never said you were a Muslim. My advice was to them not you.

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:42 pm
"Well, first of all, I NEVER said I was a believer either...so...?"

so you are saying you are not a believer and you are a believer, right? ;-)

"And alot of people have broken their necks by falling out of their chair"

are you one of them? ;-)

"So you better be careful.... Dear"

if you say you and i will do favor for you. ;-)

"of course you don't need magnifying glasses"

i told you i don't. ;-)

"you already got 2, you were born with them...lol!"

lol.


"You seem to know what YOU belive in"

i think so. ;-)

"so are you going to enlighten me or not??"

i belive what is in the Quran. have you ever read the Quran? ;-)

"I am waiting...."

im waiting for you tell me what you mean you are not a believer and you are a believer at the same time.

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:43 pm
Heheh, but dear, I was ONE of the anonymouses in the beginning... Ah, what is wrong with men's brains...

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:45 pm
"Sorry to disappoint you JB, but I am NOT a muslim"

lol. what are you then? ;-)

"so I am allowed to kick ANON's ASS, and he mine."

but jb thought i was doing the kicking. ;-)

"Now, do you need a good kick in the butt too?"

lol

"You know, the past is the past and you can't get it back, so maybe ANON is ready to learn and teach now??"

i thought i was the one asking the questions here? ;-)

"Let the man speak for himself!"

lol

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:51 pm
ANON, I will let you chew on that one...if you can... I don't fall off my chair, I am a woman and I know my place...lol! You're the chicken, I'm the HEN! No, I don't know much about the Quran, so I am asking you to enlighten me? Well, that is if you WANT a debate?? I am going to bed now, you guys keep me awake all night! I just hope you don't give me a nightmare... Have to check under my bed... Anyway, this was fun! :) Take care.

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JB

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:54 pm
White girl, You can be anyone you want to be, I most definitely am not your dear the anonymous at 5:20 and 5:50 were muslim based on what they said. they could be the same person....have a nice day/evening/night :) If your trying to drag me into an argument atleast pic a bone with me.

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Whitegirl Norway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:56 pm
ANON, you ARE doing the kicking, remember, YOU are the chicken... And don't ask for more than you can handle...... :O Byeeeee!

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 02:59 pm
JB, can I pick YOUR bone?? Later....

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 03:00 pm
"ANON, I will let you chew on that one...if you can... I don't fall off my chair, I am a woman and I know my place...lol! You're the chicken, I'm the HEN!"

do you mean grey-hen-----the female of the black grouse? ;-)

"No, I don't know much about the Quran, so I am asking you to enlighten me?"

i suggest that you get the Quran. i can't teach you all the things in the Quran online. ;-)

"Well, that is if you WANT a debate??"

i can't debate the Quran with you if you don't know the Quran. i can only point out things to you in the Quran if you tell me what you belive or not believe that is against the Quran. ;-)


so are you going to tell me what you mean you you are not a believer and you are a believer at the same time? ;-)

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JB

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 03:04 pm
hey give a shout at Jibrilone @ Yahoo.com I will be happy to enlighton you on Islam or Math or wastewater treatmeant, take a pick white gal.

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somali

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 06:46 pm
i'm most definately confused about your conversations y'all because they are either too long to read or not good writing. one thing that i wanted ask was what the hekk are you ANON and why you preaching about islam if you don't even believe in it. that's just being a hypocrite "i'll preach but i won't believe in my own speech". common now. As for the white girl, if you are interested in learning more about islam i suggest that u go by a mosque or a islamic center. take care all

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 07:14 pm
"i'm most definately confused about your conversations y'all because they are either too long to read or not good writing."

are you some kind of an evaluator here or did you think should we care about you and how you feel---if you are confused or not. ;-)

"one thing that i wanted ask was what the hekk are you ANON"

lol-----what the hekk am i? ;-)

"and why you preaching about islam if you don't even believe in it. that's just being a hypocrite." i'll preach but i won't believe in my own speech"

first, who said he is preaching islam and secondly, who said he does not believe islam and thirdly, would you think a hypocrite would say he believes islam while preaching and fourthly, whoever (you or i) said "i'll preach but i won't believe in my own speech" is lying, right? ;-)

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ANON

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 07:18 pm
"i'm most definately confused about your conversations y'all because they are either too long to read or not good writing."

are you some kind of an evaluator here or did you think should we care about you and how you feel---if you are confused or not. ;-)

"one thing that i wanted ask was what the hekk are you ANON"

lol-----what the hekk am i? ;-)

"and why you preaching about islam if you don't even believe in it. that's just being a hypocrite." i'll preach but i won't believe in my own speech"

first, who said he is preaching islam and secondly, who said he does not believe islam and thirdly, would you think a hypocrite would say he believes NOT islam while preaching and fourthly, whoever (you or i) said "i'll preach but i won't believe in my own speech" is lying, right? ;-)

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WhitegirlNorway

Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 08:18 pm
"Confused" "Somali", you seem to get easily offended, please read the headline ;-) Who said I was interested in learning islam?

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MAD MAC

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 12:46 am
Asad
Hey Abowe, when do you plan to go back to Somalia?

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 01:53 am
"Asad Hey Abowe, when do you plan to go back to Somalia?"

i can't go back to the house i was born or the city i grew up, but whenever there is peace in the country and it is save, that is when i would like to go back to there. my dream is to save enough money and build a home in the countryside for the future. although i have never lived in the countryside (i am a city boy), i think for me that is a good place to spend for the remaining days of my life. ;-)

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Lily

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:45 am
wow, looks like volcano eruppted while i was asleep.
lol@god must be a woman.

'why woman are not leaders?' asad, is this like a trick question? about women being leaders i mean. cause i thought and thought and i can't think of one muslim female leader? why is that?????

lol, remaining days of my life, you must be ancient.

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:51 am
Lily, strange, the same thought striked me...LOL! Hm, am I talking too much?? But between us women, what do you think, God must be a woman, right??
;-) Well, India and Pakistan have had several good female leaders... In the TOP jobs too ;-)

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Lily

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 05:28 am
lol white girl, no thanks i dont want to assume what god is like, i would rather be suprised, my kid brother said 'maybe god is a table?' lol. istaqfurulaah

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Lily

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 05:37 am
yes they did, but they are not even a handful of the muslim female population.

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 06:32 am
"'why woman are not leaders?' asad, is this like a trick question? about women being leaders i mean. cause i thought and thought and i can't think of one muslim female leader? why is that?????""

no, there is no trickery, but you said the reason women are not leaders is that men would not let them. you also said you personally think women would make great leaders if men were'nt so weak.
why america, russia, china never had a women president?

isn't it true that most women (muslim or non-mulsim) really want their men to be leaders----take things in control-----because if their men don't take things in-charge, they will looked at their men as being weak? ;-).

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 06:44 am
whitegirlnorway, why can't you answer my question: you said you are not a believer and you are a believer at the same time------what does that make you? ;-)

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 10:10 am
Lily, that's what I told ANON, that he will be surprised when he meets God...hehehe!!
;-)
Anon, I prefer to call myself Pagan or Heathen.
And I NORMALLY don't discuss this subject because it is fruitless... I don't believe in God but Mother Earth (not literally). There you have the "no beginning and no end". I believe in people and what's in them and I do believe that when you're dead you are gone. Forever. You only have one life and keep living through your kids. That's why we reproduce. And if we were born again it wouldn't be neccessary to reproduce so I don't believe in that neither. Now maybe some people would say that it is exactly what we are doing, but they can not expain why it gets more and more people on this planet.... I fear death. Oh well, I guess people who believe in God fear death more than me, that's why they comfort themselves with the thought that it is a better "world" on "the other side", they simply won't accept that they are mortal.
But it's ok to have a dream of a better world as long as you don't forget to LIVE in THIS world....

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 10:30 am
"Lily, that's what I told ANON, that he will be surprised when he meets God...hehehe!!
;-)"

and you said when i asked you if you will be suprised this: "I will not get a surprise after my death coz I know THE ANSWER." ;-) and i'm asking again, how do you now and what is the answer? ;-)

"Anon, I prefer to call myself Pagan or Heathen."

do you pagans or heathen know the answer after they die-----what will happened to them? tell us about what your faith says? ;-)

"And I NORMALLY don't discuss this subject because it is fruitless"

i understand. ;-)

"I don't believe in God but Mother Earth (not literally)."

i thought you said you are a believer of anything-----did you say you did? ;-) if you are a believer, you are the weakest, coz you are the BELIEVER", right? ;-)

"There you have the "no beginning and no end"."

is this your belief (a faith) or you know it for fact? ;-)

"I believe in people"

i believe in Allah, Who created the people. ;-)

"and what's in them"

what is in them? ;-)

"and I do believe that when you're dead you are gone. Forever."

where to? ;-). what is it named? ;-)

"You only have one life and keep living through your kids. That's why we reproduce. And if we were born again it wouldn't be neccessary to reproduce so I don't believe in that neither.""

so you are saying like the animals, we are here to just to produce and reproduce, right? ;-)


"Now maybe some people would say that it is exactly what we are doing, but they can not expain why it gets more and more people on this planet"

i agree some people are like the animals. they just produce, right? ;-)

"I fear death."

you are not the only one. ;-)


"Oh well, I guess people who believe in God fear death more than me, that's why they comfort themselves with the thought that it is a better "world" on "the other side""

are you saying the world other side is not a better place for you? ;-)

"they simply won't accept that they are mortal. But it's ok to have a dream of a better world as long as you don't forget to LIVE in THIS world"

are you saying your belief (faith) is not a dream, but the reality? can you give us an evidence what you are saying is the truth (not dreams you made it up)? ;-)

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dontask.

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:52 am
I think whitegirl(if she is really white) from Norway practices what they call "Asatru" or "Odinist" RELIGIONS common among the whites in american prisons. It has racial overtones and gives them some identity in the prisons since they are minority in there. Also, they base their belief on mother earth as WHITEGIRL said whatever that means. Whiteness plus paganism triggered my memory about an article I read once concerning the religions among the inmates in America.

Whitegirl, Am I right in my guess and you do know about these religions which are part of the pagan rituals?. May be you are a wiccan lol. I am really astounded at the changes somalis undergone since migration. Most of them went crazy.

PS: didn't wanna write my username so you can all guess if you want. The winner gets booted out from this camp so don't work overtime smart people in trying to figure that out. Pray for me though if you are a muslim. And if you are not a muslim may Allah guide you.

JB.

brother, Anon does a good job and I really like the way he writes. You don't ignite small fire yourself so give the brother a break. Women can take care of themselves. In fact they are good at convincing.

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 12:54 pm
Anon, to me the ANSWER is right in front of me, it's physical evidence, known as LIFE, it is as simple as that... Life DOESN'T have to be complicated you know... Yes, I KNOW the ANSWER, after death it's nothing there, just like it was nothing there before you were born. That's why I fear death. NOW; Prove me wrong? ;-)
So, if you KNOW, then also prove to me... Where is the beginning and where is the end?? Physical evidence, please?
And I said I believe in Mother Earth but NOT LITERALLY, read between the lines if you can?
Yes, I believe what's in people, the Good and Bad,
and what part is controlling them. Religious people, feel free to call it God and Satan ;-)
Dear, SOME people are not animals, WE ALL are...
Homo Sapiens.... You might not like it, but that can be proven by physical evidence too ;-)
Now, which other animal than Homo Sapiens care about nothing else but Mother Earth and how to survive HERE and not in a DIFFERENT world?
To me, I don't prefer to call it faith, it's REALITY. And I prefer to stay REAL, in REAL WORLD, because that's where I live. Until I'm dead and gone...
Now, what about you?? Your turn... What is YOUR faith?? If you dare?

dontask... ;-) I am too dignified to level myself DOWN to your level, now, the only thing I want to say to you; In practicality, my beliefs (as for most Norwegians) are based on empirical or deductive facts, Physical laws (Physics) and probability theory. Quantum theory was once used to calculate the probability of a god; unfortunately for "Theists" that factor is only 0.003%... in my opinion, this is not good odds for such existence. Nearly every "belief" I have is based on some reasonable probability (as is everyone's). Case in point: if you walk into a dark room and flick on the light switch, you "believe" the light will come on. The underlying reasons being 1- the switch controls a breaker supplying current to a resistive element in a bulb which emits light and heat when a complete circuit occurs. If the bulb is very cheap (burns out often, even when new and current is applied) then you have a lower "probability" of successful illumination; hence, when you know you have a possibly faulty bulb and you flick the switch, you still hesitate before entering the dark room even though the light emits as normal. This hesitation is a direct result of your lowered probability acceptance. Now, to "believe" in a god, or anything else for that matter, with no evidence whatsoever, is lunacy, in my opinion. There is NO evidence, whatsoever, of the existence of a god; hence, I do not believe.
Anyway, I'm sure this doesn't make sense to you...

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 01:24 pm
"Anon, to me the ANSWER is right in front of me, it's physical evidence, known as LIFE, it is as simple as that... Life DOESN'T have to be complicated you know"

do you see the soul (the life) in you? ;-)

"Yes, I KNOW the ANSWER, after death it's nothing there, just like it was nothing there before you were born."

do you know it (you have physical evidence) to prove that after death and before you were born, the life (the soul) was/will be nothing-----or you are just speculating it? ;-)

"That's why I fear death."

i fear it too. ;-)

"NOW; Prove me wrong? ;-)"

you didn't even prove anything. i think all you have is speculations, right? ;-)


"So, if you KNOW, then also prove to me"

i have faith; you have speculations. i can't prove my faith, but can you prove your speculations (your faith)? ;-)


"Where is the beginning and where is the end?? "

i don't know. Allah knows, but you are speculatings Allah does not know, right? ;-)

"Physical evidence, please?"

did you show physical evidence that there was no begining and no end? ;-)


"And I said I believe in Mother Earth but NOT LITERALLY, read between the lines if you can?"

are you saying you believe in mother earth is literary (fictional)? ;-)

"Yes, I believe what's in people, the Good and Bad, and what part is controlling them."

what part is controling? can people control or prevent their death? ;-)

"Religious people, feel free to call it God and Satan ;-)"

religious people are called god and satan? ;-)


"Dear, SOME people are not animals"

are you one of them? ;-)

"WE ALL are...Homo Sapiens...."

do the (animals----not the human) homosapiens and their character----in their brain capacity average 1400 cc (85 cu. in)?


"You might not like it, but that can be proven by physical evidence too ;-)"

i would like you to show us the prove. ;-)


"Now, which other animal than Homo Sapiens care about nothing else but Mother Earth and how to survive HERE and not in a DIFFERENT world?"


which animal? ;-)

"To me, I don't prefer to call it faith, it's REALITY."

the reality is what you can see, right? ;-)

"And I prefer to stay REAL"

lol----not false? ;-)

"in REAL WORLD, because that's where I live. Until I'm dead and gone"

but you said there was no begining and no end------where did you get this *reality* you did not and will not see? ;-)

"Now, what about you?? Your turn... What is YOUR faith?? If you dare?"

i told you that i believe in Allah Who created the people and there is after-life. can you disprove it? ;-)

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 01:49 pm
First of all; Why don't you answer me first, like I do, before you ask new questions, hm? ;-)
Yes, my soul will be gone when I die, you see, a soul is nothing but your brain... You simply can't live without it... I wonder, where would your brain take a walk after your death?? To Allah?? Where, at least not up above, that's for sure...hehehe! 5 feet under ground.... And who is waiting for you there...Booooo!
Your computer also has a "brain", now try to kill it and see what happens...? You have to replace a new brain an probably the rest too... Like in real world... We produce to keep on living... You're just like your computer...lol!
Dear, Mother Earth is where you have your 2 feet, can you feel it? And I never SPECULATE, because I KNOW. You should try to get real too, and not speculate so much... ;-)
Now, give me an ANSWER, please; Prove your faith?
Hehehe, humans...can you explain that word, please? I suggest you take a look at what scientists have found out about the subject Homo Sapiens, and they CAN prove you are an animal, too bad, huh?? Your forefathers have been crawling around...hehehe!
When did Allah create the people?? You seem to know...? And what and where is Allah? You seem to know...? Now, please don't say that it is inside you, because that makes you a heathen...heheh! Now, I have said enough, your answers are really not that interesting to me, simply because I KNOW I am right... Like you do... So, like I said, fruitless.... I would rather talk about women...

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 02:20 pm
"First of all; Why don't you answer me first, like I do, before you ask new questions, hm? ;-)"

what are the questions you asked? ;-)


"Yes, my soul will be gone when I die"

where will it go? ;-)

"you see, a soul is nothing but your brain"

that is not true. ;-). what evidence do you have on this? ;-) i believe the soul was created before the creation of human being? ;-)


"You simply can't live without it"

not always that the brain dies, the body does not function. have you ever there is such thing call brain-dead person-------living in the state of comma---vegetable state? ;-)

"I wonder, where would your brain take a walk after your death?? To Allah??"

Allah knows where the soul will go. the brain dies as the body dies. i believe the soul goes somewhere and waits for the day of judgment-----that is when Allah puts new body in your soul. can you dispove this? ;-)

"Where, at least not up above, that's for sure"

lol------that is for sure. ;-). really, are you sure? ;-)


"hehehe! 5 feet under ground.... And who is waiting for you there...Booooo!"

who? ;-)

"Your computer also has a "brain", now try to kill it and see what happens...?"

does the computer have soul? can the computer think and do things by itself? ;-)

"You have to replace a new brain an probably the rest too"

do you mean the soul of the computer? ;-)

"Like in real world"

does the world has brain (soul) too? ;-). let me ask you, what would happen the world------would the world always exist? ;-)

"We produce to keep on living"

and keep on dying, right? ;-)

"You're just like your computer...lol!"

who turns me on and off? ;-)


"Dear, Mother Earth is where you have your 2 feet, can you feel it?"

who created it? ;-)

"And I never SPECULATE, because I KNOW. You should try to get real too, and not speculate so much... ;-) Now, give me an ANSWER, please; Prove your faith?"

my answer is that, if you know; i know too; if you don't speculate; i don't speculate too, right? ;-)


"Hehehe, humans...can you explain that word, please?"

the word human-----i can tell you that it is a word different than the word animal. ;-)

"I suggest you take a look at what scientists have found out about the subject Homo Sapiens"

did they prove that human beings were apes? ;-)

"and they CAN prove you are an animal"

i can prove that they think like animals. ;-)

"too bad, huh??"

yes, it is. ;-)

"Your forefathers have been crawling around...hehehe!"

really, did you see them? ;-)

"When did Allah create the people??"

after He created the mother nature. ;-)

"You seem to know...?"

yes, i know, can you disprove it? ;-)

"And what and where is Allah?"

He is where He is and He knows where and what is everything. ;-)

"You seem to know...?"

yes, and can you disprove it? ;-)

"Now, please don't say that it is inside you"

lol-----it is inside you. ;-). it is not, but can you disprove it from inside of you? ;-)

"because that makes you a heathen...heheh!"

lol really? ;-)


"Now, I have said enough, your answers are really not that interesting to me"

i understand. ;-)

"simply because I KNOW I am right Like you do"

but too bad that you don't prove. ;-)

"So, like I said, fruitless"

i told you that i understand that what you are saying is fruitless. ;-)

"I would rather talk about women."

why------do you hate men? ;-)

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Galool

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 02:40 pm
PG

I would not describe myself as chivalrous, but thanks for the compliment anyway. I was actually feeling rather embarrassed for ANON to get into that kind of discussion. Interesting that he considers himself an equal opportunities insulter! In fact ANON is big on political correctness except on race, religion, ethniticity, hatred etc. What a new take on the concept.

I think we slightly differ on our attitudes to Tribalism. I don't believe I belong to any tribe or clan and I therefore don't feel aggrieved if anyone says anything about my supposed clan. I will nevertheless prefer a clan-based political regime to a Fundamentalist Islamist one, for the simple reason that Clannism is secular and is responsive to negotiation and debate. Fundaism on the other hand will be dictatorial absolutism and we all know what that can do.

TLG

Nice to see you back. Don't worry about me, I will not go to hell, and if I did what an experience it would be. Just imagine the range of people I will meet there.. Voltaire, Mao-Zedong, Brecht, Einstein, Naomi Campbell (well OK maybe not her!), not to forget the the wonderful PG! In fact according to you guys, most of humanity will be there! It can't be too bad then can it?

Talk to you later....I have been ordered to attend to something in the kitchen!

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 02:45 pm
Wow, you can't remember the questions? Your brain is not working today?? Lazy man!
;-)))
You cannot just say that things are not true without specify it... Who turns you on and off??
Do I have to tell you that women push the button??
;-) And unlike you, I can prove my faith; I only have faith in myself. And also unlike you I don't have to try to prove the rest coz I believe in REALITY... Me and my life is more than enough for me to handle. So when I say a discussion is fruitless I mean it. Because we can go on forever, and I really don't have time for that, coz this is cyber, and I live in REAL world.
This is just something I do to amuse myself, we all need a good laugh now and then ;-)
And by the way; I LOVE men! Especially when they are crawling around with the butt in the air ;-)
But of course, you can always look for me and see if I have posted any proofs.... Because I might... Oh, I almost forgot; How do you know Allah is a HE?? I already told you it's a SHE...hahaha! And when was Mother Nature created?? After someone created Allah?? LOL!

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 02:57 pm
"I was actually feeling rather embarrassed for ANON to get into that kind of discussion."

do you mean getting people like you or making people like taste their own medicine-----that kind of discussion? ;-)

"Interesting that he considers himself an equal opportunities insulter!"

if i insulted pragmaticgal (which i did not), she also did insult the other lady, right? ;-)

"In fact ANON is big on political correctness except on race, religion, ethniticity, hatred etc. What a new take on the concept."

i'm big on telling it like it is. telling the truth is not always sweet or policatally correct, but just as you hate hitler, i hate other hate-mongers like hitler who do the same things he did or worst-----i don't care what religion, race, ethnicity she or he might belong to. ;-). galool, do you love the man (hitler) and what he did to your beloved people? ;-)

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:11 pm
"Wow, you can't remember the questions?" Your brain is not working today??"

could it be that i answered and you were not satisfied what i said. ;-). remember, you said "Now, I have said enough, your answers are really not that interesting to me"

"Lazy man!"

lol


"You cannot just say that things are not true without specify it"

what do you mean? ;-)

-------Who turns you on and off?-------

"Do I have to tell you that women push the button?? "

who pushes the buttan (the brain or the soul) of that women? ;-)


"And unlike you, I can prove my faith"

i wish you showed where you proved your *faith*. ;-)

"I only have faith in myself."

you never doubted anything about yourself? ;-)

"And also unlike you I don't have to try to prove the rest coz I believe in REALITY"

i understand why you don't have to prove your faith. ;-)

"Me and my life is more than enough for me to handle."

yes, everthing else you believe in is fruitless, right? ;-)

"So when I say a discussion is fruitless I mean it."

i got it. ;-)

"Because we can go on forever, and I really don't have time for that, coz this is cyber, and I live in REAL world."

i told you i really really understand. did mean to put you on the spot. ;-)


"This is just something I do to amuse myself, we all need a good laugh now and then ;-)"

that is why it is fruitless, right? ;-)


"And by the way; I LOVE men!"

good, but you would rather talk about women, right? ;-)


"Especially when they are crawling around with the butt in the air ;-)"

where do you find these men? ;-)

"But of course, you can always look for me and see if I have posted any proofs Because I might... Oh, "

i would like to see them, but take your time. ;-)


"I almost forgot; How do you know Allah is a HE??"

becasue, in the Quran, Allah calls Himself He in many places. i told you i believe what is in the Quran, did I? ;-)

"I already told you it's a SHE hahaha! And when was Mother Nature created?? After someone created Allah?? LOL!"


and where did you get that information----did satan tell you that? ;-)

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ANON

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:18 pm
galool, did you mean to post that message of yours on "A message for TLG, Common, Asad, Former Guest and the....II" folder-----------Ooops ;-)------or did you want to change the topic? ;-)

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WhitegirlNorway

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:22 pm
I can see that you guys sure need a cool breeze from the cold north in here now and then... As long as I don't fart.... (sorry, can't help it, it must be my Viking Herritage)
ANON, Have fun! And stay cool! :O

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Manag

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 03:32 pm
You are busted Galool. Hey people WhitegirlNorway is Golool pretending to be two different people.

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Lily

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 01:52 am
Actually Norway girl, they DO have some evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are two different things, which goes on to suggest there is life after death as the mind lives on. Hold on, I'll try to find the article.

p.s. these 'does god exist' debates are getting tiresome, can we agree to disagree?

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Anonymous

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 02:17 am
lol@lily, sister you are very funny!

muslim women leaders, huh!

Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) the wife of our beloved prophet(pbuh) was the LEADER of an army( the battle of the Camel).

Fatima Jinnah and Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan.
And many many muslim women leaders across the globe from Bangladesh to Turkey. From Egypt to the Islands of al-waaq waaq!

Do i forgetting the first muslim LEADER, Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her) who believed in the message of our beloved rasoul and protected him against the evil hands of Quresh.

The list can go on and on, but the best of all matters is that which is to the point and clear.

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WhitegirlNorway

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 04:52 am
Lily, I have already made my point in here. But it would be interesting to see that article, is it a proof or just an assumption?
And when you say; these 'does god exist' debates are getting tiresome, can we agree to disagree?, I agree with you. I already said so in a different way; Fruitless.

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Galool

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 09:51 am
ANON

Yes, I intended the message under the other heading, but you got the message as it was mainly intended for you and you are Omnipresent(am I blaspheming here?)
I do despise Hitler and his ideoligical cousins, ie those still peddling the same nastiness in various colors. Hatred, religious bigotry, dicatatorship under one guise or the other... ring any bells ANON?


Manag
Oh yeah? What a great mind you must have! I am awestruck by your deductive capabilities. Keep-up the good work.

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ANON

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 11:19 am
"ANON Yes, I intended the message under the other heading"

i thought so. ;-)

"but you got the message as it was mainly intended for you"

this is a public forums and you intended to talk about me and mentioned my username, right? ;-)

"and you are Omnipresent(am I blaspheming here?)"

lol


"I do despise Hitler and his ideoligical cousins"

what about those who do the same things hitler done to them to other people? ;-). do you love them? ;-)

"ie those still peddling the same nastiness in various colors."

do you mean, your beloved people? ;-)


"Hatred, religious bigotry, dicatatorship under one guise or the other... ring any bells ANON?"

yes, the atheistic russia comes to my mind. ;-)

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Galool

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 11:46 am
ANON

Russia is no longer Atheistic. Did you miss the collapse the Soviet Union? In fact God is big business in Russia today, as always happens when nations collapse. People seek shelter in irrationality and superstition and the Wadaads make a killing(quite literally in places like Afghanistan)

As for my "beloved" people, suffice to say I hate no one and try to be fair in my judgement of others, without being too self-righteous. But of course that concept is beyond your comprehension, since you think that anyone who disagrees with your version of the "truth" deserves death in this world and eternal damnation in the next! A bit harsh wouldn't you say?

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ANON

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 12:02 pm
"ANON Russia is no longer Atheistic."

but it was, right? ;-)

"Did you miss the collapse the Soviet Union?"

do you mean those who made use of their hatred, religious bigotry and dicatatorship under atheism? ;-). did they become theists? ;-)

"In fact God is big business in Russia today, as always happens when nations collapse."

so soviet union was good because of atheism, right? ;-)


"People seek shelter in irrationality and superstition"

lol

"and the Wadaads make a killing(quite literally in places like Afghanistan)"

i wonder who the afghanistan kicked their butt? ;-)

"As for my "beloved" people, suffice to say I hate no one"

but you said you hate hitler, right? ;-)

"and try to be fair in my judgement of others"

is hating fair? ;-)

"without being too self-righteous."

so hating is fair as long as you hate hitler only and as long as you are atheist, right? ;-)


"But of course that concept is beyond your comprehension"

i understand. ;-). that concept is beyond my compreshenison. ;-)

"since you think that anyone who disagrees with your version of the "truth" deserves death in this world"

are you still petrified that i will kill you because i disagree with you? ;-)

"and eternal damnation in the next!"

for those who reject Allah, but for those who accept Allah there is eternal pleasure in the next. ;-)

"A bit harsh wouldn't you say?"

well, i would say it is fair. i have a choice to make and you have a choice to make. you can not blame Allah for your choice. ;-)

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