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PragmaticGal your god is having a bad hair day loooool!!

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Islam (Current): PragmaticGal your god is having a bad hair day loooool!!
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JB

Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 05:55 am
Hey pragmaticgal I have newz for you……..come read about it!!! He he he :)
In short the ‘science’ gods or the gods of scientific debate has had a change in mood. Mood is what its all about but then again I think its all about money cuz Money pays for these biased expedition into Africa. What it all adds up to is confusion…..lol .Personally I would not even call Archeology a ‘science’ much less a religion or a god….no offence PG. One day we are from apes and the next day we are not..lol The missing link is no more Kenyanthropus is as old as ‘Lucy’ so much for the link. PragmaticGal, Walaal why do you so eagerly await a theory that disproves creationism. This is Bias to 10th degree. Chill out sister and submit to Allah as The creator of the Heavens and Earth, you will find no debates or Uturn or inconsistencies in His word. Only Contentment and Happiness. Our greeting is Peace

_________________________


Skull find in Kenya shakes evolution tree


OTTAWA - Forget about anything as simple as a missing link in our evolution from the apes. An entire new branch of humanity's early family tree has just turned up and there are probably more branches - and more confusion - on the way, experts say.
A team led by famed fossil-hunter Meave Leakey announced today the discovery at Lake Turkana in northern Kenya of a 3.5-million-year-old skull that is the newest contender for a direct ancestor of modern humans.
The small-brained, flat-faced creature, named Kenyanthropus platyops, challenges the Ethiopian fossil known as ``Lucy'' for the position of evolutionary front-runner.
``I think it's 50-50. This really makes people think again and re-evaluate the evidence we have,'' said Leakey from Los Angeles in a telephone interview.
Leakey said many more early hominid fossils will be needed before all the branches in humanity's family tree can be accurately traced. The period between 3.5 million and 3 million years ago could be especially important, she said.
The new fossil is strikingly different from Lucy, formally known as Australopithecus afarensis. Although both date from roughly the same time, the skulls from Ethiopia have bigger teeth and a more protruding face.
``Kenyanthropus is much less apelike than afarensis,'' said Bill Kimbel, a leading Lucy researcher who has studied plaster casts of the new skull.
Kimbel said the Kenyanthropus discovery will let researchers narrow down the hunt for human ancestor fossils by focusing on specific times and geographical areas.
``It refines the evolutionary picture because it refines our ability to ask the right questions,'' said Kimbel, science director of the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona State University.
Kenyanthropus platyops translates as ``flat-faced human from Kenya.'' The skull and two pieces of jawbone from the same creature were found during the last week of a lengthy field trip on the western shore of Lake Turkana in August, 1999.
``We thought we weren't going to find anything. We were afraid of going home empty-handed,'' said Leakey.
Cleaning and reconstructing the fragile and badly distorted fossil took a year. Detailed scientific analysis wasn't complete until January. The results are published in today's issue of the British journal Nature.
The Leakey team has already proposed extending the Kenyanthropus lineage forward to 2 million years ago. Their scientific paper draws an evolutionary line to a skull known as rudolfensis discovered a decade ago also at Lake Turkana, which was known as Lake Rudolph in colonial times.
The rudolfensis skull has a similar facial arrangement but a bigger cranial capacity, which is what evolutionary theory would predict.
Leakey said there is as yet no evidence that particular evolutionary line extends further forward to the first appearance of Homo erectus at about 1.3 million years ago. (Homo erectus, erect-standing early humans, preceded Homo sapiens or modern man.) ``I wouldn't stick my neck out and say Kenyanthropus is ancestral to Homo erectus,'' she said.
The most recent discovery comes just months after December's controversial announcement by a French research team led by Canadian-educated Martin Pickford.
The researchers said they had unearthed a skull and leg bones near Lake Baringo in western Kenyadating back six million years which represented the oldest fossilized remains of a human ancestor.
But all fossils found in Kenya automatically belong to the National Museums of Kenya, where Meave Leakey has been head of paleontology since 1982. Leakey said yesterday that ownership of the Lake Baringo fossils is before the courts.
But she agreed that the six-million-year-old skull could be important for evolutionary theory because it has small teeth similar to Kenyanthropus.
Until now scientists have thought that the primitive creatures at the base of the human family tree had large ape-like molars and that creatures with smaller teeth evolved later.
The arrangement and size of teeth in the fossil skulls are a tip-off to the diet of these early animals, said Fred Spoor, a member of the team and expert in evolutionary anatomy at University College in London.
``We associate smaller teeth with a more mixed diet - a high proportion of fruit and berries but also grubs and maybe some small animals,'' said Spoor.
With that sort of diet, Kenyanthropus platyops could even have lived alongside Lucy and her family, since their bigger teeth indicate a diet that involved more heavy-duty grinding. There is as yet no evidence the two creatures ever lived in the same general area, researchers said.

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PragmaticGal

Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 02:08 pm
How shocking!!! How revolutionary!!! The Theory of Evolution has been discredited!!! By a Leakey, no less!!!

How dumb can you get?

All the article is saying, you nincompoop, is that Lucy had contemporary hominid about 3-6 million years ago. In other words, either Austropithecus or Kenyanthropus is our evolutionary ancestor. In other other words, Maeve Leakey has discovered another fossil that creationists will have to explain away to defend their "we are glorified Mud" view.

Isn't it interesting that, instead of hiding or destroying Kenyanthropus in deference to her parents' Lucy, instead of lying, obfuscating, questioning the dating evidence or just plain ignoring it, as creationists do, Leakey publishes her finding in the major scientific journal??

Isn't that interesting? And what does it REALLY say about the credibility of archaeologists?

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Galool

Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 02:30 pm
PG

nincompoop! God did I laugh! Why Oh why did you not teach me about this glorious word before? Oh do I know a number of people here it so perfectly describes!

Thanks for making me laugh!

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JB

Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 05:39 pm
PG,

I did not wait for civility from you and your insults are expected, rather I wear them as a badge of Honor. I know what the article is stating the question is do you really Know what your ‘scripture’ says? The scripture that is written and erased and then re-written and is pushed alone by a debate on the left and then on the right! Inspite of this you have the boldness to accuse us of Faith, lol You are truly under great delusion and you crave certainty to the extent that you will cling to a work in progress! Admit it PG you are a bottle in the ocean, floating aimlessly. Every now and then, there is a storm and as a result, your gods and idols have a bad hair day. Our faith unlike your is more stable and fills our hearts with tranquility. All faiths are not created equal. PG, God created Adam from Mud (earth) what do you suggest? Or what do your gods say? We are created from Apes? Creation is beyond the scope of archeologist. Only when this simple concept sinks into the thick skull you inherited from (is it Lucy?) will you be able to find a new hobby or playground. Hey PG to avoid the problem with the bad hair days it may be advisable to paint hair on instead of artificial hair, then you will only have to worry about the occasional leg and arm of your idol falling off lol. You will patch it up as usual… way to go PG, bravo, Hurray! You always find certainty in debate regardless of who is winning. I’m not counting. Hhhmmmm …How many different ways can I say you have faith …hhhmm something tells me your in denial …….dam that Lucy and her thick skull, lol

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Galool

Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 06:17 am
PG

Just go to Fahamka Islamka folder , Walaal Ma denbibaa sub-folder and see whether you react the way I did! But you do need to read Somali.
Thanks.

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Galool

Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 06:21 am
PG

Just go to Fahamka Islamka folder , Walaal Ma denbibaa sub-folder and see whether you react the way I did! But you do need to read Somali.
Thanks.

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JB

Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 08:18 am
PG13
You read what you want to read in an article and ignore the rest. You have even miss read me and I don’t even talk in riddles. What I find interesting in your religion is the state of continuous debate. There is Much talk about a missing link and other garbage of the sort. This article suggest, wait a minute we may need a new branch to be added on to our Diagram. ‘Lacy’ or shall I say ‘3 ft mother lucy’ and this new ‘specimen’ may belong to the same Family yet they have striking differences. They are also from about the same time period. “An entire new branch of humanity's early family tree has just turned up and there are probably more branches - and more confusion - on the way, experts say” I find it amusing thats all. I suggest you stop worrying about Missing links and worry about redrawing your whole sketch! lol….Missing link… new family ….hey Guess what we found ‘Adam’ oops No actually ignore that its was only rock in the shape of a skull lol….. This ‘scientific’ community needs to get its act together. you’ll remind me of CNN and their health show, they always say ‘a glass of wine a day is good’ and the next week its ‘not good’ and on the third week it does not make a difference. And sure enough their cycle is repeated in a month, lol. This is what I mean by “money is what drives this sort of research” who ever has the most money will get to manipulate the ‘thick skulls’ creationist or not. It’s a lot like the debate on race and intelligence, Nature verses nurture. Give it a rest PG13 and stop being a martyr for theories and they don’t even promise you a reward.

How will you celebrate when the finish combing the entire earth for fossils, will you sip on wine or grape juice……. stay tuned to CNN….lol They may even interview you! Just think about it PG…lol who will you be wearing? Versace? And who will you thank in your speech? Darwin and the Galapagos Islands

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PragmaticGal

Monday, March 26, 2001 - 10:59 am
Galool:

You're welcome, bro. I went to the folder you suggested, and I think I reacted the same: Laughing disbelief. And maybe a little dismay. My favourite advice is by the fellow with the long name: he suggests the poor sinner should ask for forgiveness, IN THE TOILET. How would this go, "...Allahu akbar, oops Istaqfurulah, oops..."?

I kept wondering how this might have applied in the baadiye, sans toilet, where the only advice Muhammed gave to his followers is "don't piss into the wind". How prosaic in comparison to the schools of thought that have sprung up specifically to answer concerns such as these.

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PragmaticGal

Monday, March 26, 2001 - 12:29 pm
JB:

I duly note the wordplay on the ABBREVIATION of my NICKNAME. How supremely clever. Well, consider this a piece of Parental Guidance: Stay out of discussions that go over--way over--your mental age JB--Under 13.

An example of ideas that go way over your head is the supposed uncertainties of the Theory of Evolution. You say, "What I find interesting in your religion is the state of continuous debate". I find it interesting in my "religion" too. As well as healthy. And natural. And proof that archaeology is a science. And that the Theory of Evolution is solidly proven. Debate, research, and constant testing of old paradigms is what differentiates REAL science from religious dogma: While you narrow-minded children cling to the "Truth" as revealed to you by prophets and holy books 1500 years ago, while you revel in the certainty of KNOWING that you are right, while you condemn everyone else for not accepting your pseudoscientific junk ("The Bible, Qur'an and Science!!!" is a popular book among "intellectual" Muslims), the rest of us are grateful we get access to opposing theories, interpretations, and findings. Real science IS debate and a "work in progress", amigo. I am sure you learned about some of these in your second rate high school that failed to give you a basic grounding in logic and Critical Thinking:

--Newton's Laws on gravity and motion were uncontested for a couple of centuries before Einstein's General Theory of Relativity set them on their side; Now scientists are testing the limits of General Relativity.
--Ptolemy's "theory" that the planets, sun, and stars circled the Earth was standard knowledge until Copernicus and Galileo;
--Diseases were thought to be caused by "humours", spirits, devils, magnetism, and what have you, until Pasteur developed the Germ Theory of Disease.

I bet that if you were around during any of these revolutions you would laugh at these "works in progress", full of scorn and certainty, amazed that people would waste their time with meaningless theories. Now, of course, you will argue unconvincingly that the Qur'an already contained all these truths and more. In that book "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science", the author claims that the Qur'an talks about the Big Bang Theory for the origins of the universe. But it's only a theory!! What if some better theory comes along tomorrow? Is the Qur'an suddenly on shaky ground? Or will a new wave of Islamic apologists go through the Glorious Qur'an with a magnifying glass, looking for the ayah that supports the new theory? I'll bet the latter, a million to one.

JB, you don't seem to understand something very, very important:
The Theory of Evolution is not the basis for atheism. I know Muslims who believe in evolution (and use the Qur'an to support their conviction), and there were atheists who never even heard of evolution: atheism existed long before Darwin.

I don't believe in God for many reasons, but evolution is just not one of them. You seem to have a profound inability to comprehend this, so let me repeat it: Atheism is not synonymous with Darwinism. If you want to question Darwinism because you think it's scientifically wrong, that's fine, but don't question it because it doesn't have a place for an afterlife, God, or something. That's just irrevelent and not necessarily true.

And while I accept evolution as a biologist, I wouldn't give a hoot if it turned to be wrong, as an atheist. I would be deeply interested in the new SCIENTIFIC theory that replaces it (Creationism will NEVER replace the Theory of Evolution). Evolution a good theory, perhaps the best and most verified theory we ever had, but it's not the alpha and omega of my existence, JB. So you can stop fantasizing about what I would be wearing at some Verification of Evolution Emmys. Gosh, Versace? Don't you think discussing the labels on expensive clothing is a little demeaning for a manly man like you?

What's more, I find your "missing link" questions hilarious: There are numerous fossils that span the evolution of humans, but as long as one specific fossil is missing, creationists can safely evoke the God of the Gaps. "If that particular fossil is missing, that must mean God exists". Of course, when that fossil is found, creationists will shift their desperation to another as yet undiscovered "missing link". "Sure, they found the link between birds and reptiles, but they didn't find the specific link between penguins and alligators, so God must exist"...How sad.

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Nour

Monday, March 26, 2001 - 03:14 pm
PG
in your first paragraph, when I read how you attach JB, I was thinking oh oh she is going to have "GOOD" point to say. Then you disappointed me with the rest.

I can feel, you are getting weaker and shakier in your Darwinism belief(this is good, Walaalo). For atheists who wants to forge some rationality in their atheism, there is nothing better than Darwinism. that is their only hope. You can either be foolish brave(as Galool) and say,"I don't want believe in God,period". or you can be foolishly coward and go about justifying your atheism by the doomed theory of Evolution.
One of the characteristics of Truth is that it never changes by time. It will always be Truth. That is the case of the Holy Qur'an. Qur'an has a scientific verses and NO,I repeat, NO single scientific FACT contradicted those in the Qur'an. This never happened before(even though people did not know about these science when the Qur'an was revealed). Now your only argument was to speculate what if this, what if that. I will say that since it never happened before and it will never happen. The facts in the Qur'an are way more than the scientific ones. When I read it, it makes me understand things more in very wide horizon. It tells you to think, ponder,and think again. It gives lessons about yourself, mankind and the world. It tells your position and significance in this vast Universe. It tells you that things are running according to Plan and under control, know who you are and your relation with the Universe and it's CREATOR. Take it easy, try your best but know that you have limitations. If you follow these instructions given in this book(no need to worry about instruction change, revision and modification. It's already taken care of that. It will remain 1st Edition), you will know your way around. It talks to the heart and peaces it. I can see the disadvantage of not knowing the Arabic. Ya Allah how people live without the Qur'an!!

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Nour

Monday, March 26, 2001 - 04:00 pm
I did not mean to say that every one who speaks Arabic does understands the Qur'an. To understand even the literal meaning of the verses, one needs to do studying. It always upsets me when i see some ignorant Arab guy making himself as authority of the Qur'an because he speaks Arabic. When He reads the Qur'an he makes lot of gramatical and pronouncing mistakes.

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abu salman

Monday, March 26, 2001 - 09:09 pm
To Galool
Diinta maaha waxa dadka wareeriyay ee waa aqoon la'aantooda, haday bartaana way ka xoroobi lahaayeen wareerka uu jahligu u keenay, tan labaad hadii ay jaahil ka yihiin arin diini ah ma waa ina ay culimada way diiyaan oo masaajida ugu tagaan ama wacaan ama su'aalaha ka way diiyaan web-kooda ma'ahayn in diinta duleeyaan oo sheydaanka adoo kale ahi ku qoslo waa wax ay muslimiintu isu keeneen ee maaha wax ay diintu noo keentay.
Adiga waxaan ku dhihi lahaa Alle kuuma baahna ee waa adiga qofka u baahan hadaad diiday inaad Alle aflagaadada iyo cayda aad ka dayso, sugo waxa aad mu taysatay cidna ha eedayn ee naftaada eedee, sugna in nafta caasiyada ah lagaa qaadi doono.
waxaan Alle kuu waydiinayaa in uu ku hanuuniyo hadii uusan hanuun kula damcina uu cadaalad kuula dhaqmo. waan hubaa inaad af Soomaliga akhrisid, ee akhri oo ku waano qaado.

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Galool

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 09:30 am
Abu-Salman

Amaad dhashay ilmo la dhaho Salman? Hadii kale maxaad isugu tilmaantay aabbihii Salman? Af-Soomaaliga si fiican baan u akhrin karaa saa Soomaali baan ahaye. Adise uma egid inaad Soomalinimo wax ku leedahay, saa waxaad isku tilmaantay magac ajnabi ahe. Ilaahaaga maa magacyada carebiga ah ka jecel kuwan Soomaaliga ah?

Sheydaan ani ma ahi, sababtu sheydaan wax la dhahaanba jirin. Khuraafo iyo dajal aad ku nooshahay qarnigii 21aad. Adeerow kor, oo is caawi waxna baro oo aqoon yeelo.

Cay ani uma geysto ilaahay iyo Khudaaga, iyo Bhagwaanka, iyo Yahwe iwm. Dadku waxay caabudaan ayagay jirtaa, cayna weligay uma geysan. ii sheeg meeshaad ani oo ilaahaaga caynaya igu aragtay.

Ku mahadsanid ducadaada waxse tari may, saa cid dhegeysanaysaanba jirine.

Nabadgelyo.

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New Deal

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 11:11 am
PG.

I didn’t wish to respond Galool in regards to what is posted on Fahamka Islaamka Folder, and yes, I did go there and read the posts. Mainly I avoided responding to Galool in regards to that issue since his reaction was more of mockery and jesting rather than a genuine reaction. I sort of sensed from your “laughing disbelief . . . [and perhaps, your being] little dismay,” that your reaction was more of disagreement rather than mockery. Yeah, the way one phrases his words makes a world of difference: the difference between mockery and genuine disagreement.

So, let me first state the obvious. Islam is a comprehensive way of life. It constitutes all that which every individual who is a member of the Muslim society does. This much is clear in the social dimensions of Islam, embodied in a set of regulations or norms that govern both personal and community affairs. It is no wonder then that Toilet Etiques will be discussed under this comprehensive way of life. Surprisingly, the great Sahaba was asked the same question by someone with a Galoolian attitude back in those days. “Your religion even teaches you how to relief yourself,” was the mockery-question the Galoolian Kaafir asked the Sahabi, who indeed related to him the great advice of our beloved prophet. Quiet frankly, I find it quiet disgusting that someone would want to talk while in the midst of relieving himself/herself from the waste of the human body. It is also disrespect to mention the great names of Allah under such conditions, let alone reciting the holy words of the Quran. But then again, you may differ with me in my understanding, upon which I can only ask you to respect my understanding and nothing more—no mockery, no laughing in disbelief.

Again, Islam is a comprehensive way of life, and that requires many things that may seem irrelevant to others are essential for the Islamic individual. Using your own words, I think many people “seem to have a profound inability to comprehend this, so let me repeat it:” Islam is a way of life, not a religion in the literal meaning of the word. Of course you are familiar the “Model” we use as a benchmark that we measure our acts against—The Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet. Emulating the example of the prophet is our method and total submission to Allah is our goal So, to us, Toilet Etiques are not “shocking” but Ibaadah that we must approach as we approach any other forms of Ibaadah, be that performing experiments somewhere in American University or praying and the like. But again, I’m afraid you and those with Galoolian attitude can’t comprehend this fact, regrettably!

In an unrelated matter, I have seen you dismiss Islam as a religious dogma, and followers of this religion given into blind set of illogical habits. Well, you believe what you believe and I do disagree with you respectfully. I have a say or two in regards to Islam and religious dogmas. Actually, I thought I would share with you the following Quote from Prof. John Esposito of Georgetown University. Prof. Esposito wrote, “If the Muslim vocation was to follow or obey God’s will, then knowing God’s will was imperative. Whereas Dogma or doctrine epitomized the essential statement of Christian belief, Islam, like Judaism, found its central expression in law. Law rather than theology was the dominant discipline for defining or delineating faith . . . both the Quran and traditions of the prophet reveal the comprehensiveness of Islam’s way of life, its individual and corporate dimensions.” In other words, dogma is far from the Islamic prospective, a prospective that is defined by its reason and codified regulations. I would suggest that you revisit the Islamic teachings and reach your own conclusions to what Islam teaches.

Well, this is already long, so I shall stop here.

Galool,

I think others, with the lovely TLg leading the way, have related to you the right response in regards to the folder you suggested we visit. Good day, sir.

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New Deal

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 11:14 am
JB,

sorry bro if i went off the topic. Just had to say something in response to the above posts. Sorry for the interruption.

New Deal

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Galool

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 11:21 am
ND

I saw TLG's response to my call for common sense -and reclaiming human dignity from the clasp of religious edicts that attempt to control every aspect of our daily lives.

I will take your word regarding the "Loveliness" of TLG.

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JB

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 11:50 am
Well said brother Nour, I laughed when I read you comment about Galool.

PG 13
You ramble on as usual…a lot of words and but very little substance, and Nuor is correct your betrayal of evolution is a good thing….however minute it may be. You are confused as usual and continue to call to confusion. First and foremost as brother Nour stated truth is not a work in progress! This is where you are confused. Allah’s, creation, Angels, heaven and hell are not in the realm of science; the sooner you realize this the better off you will be. We call to eternal truths while you call to a work in progress! Can you not see that the two are not to be mistaken and you cannot use the evolution of species as a replacement of creation! This is common sense PG. Creation is to create while evolution is the change of characteristics over many generations. Even your prophet Darwin, says, "I believe that animals have descended from at most only four or five progenitors, and plants from an equal or lesser number," He leaves room for creation and God wad up wiff you PG? This is why I say give it a rest and find another pass time. My point is simple, don’t use science for a purpose other than its intent.

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JB

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 12:01 pm
New Deal, akhi Any input from you on any topic Is Much welcomed :)

PG13...where did i stop...

Funny you should mention "The Bible, Qur'an and Science", I am not too fond of that book and I view most of those who are obsessed with it as apologetics not intellectuals (not that the word intellectual is a compliment). In all fairness to the book, it is a comparative book and as such does it part to compare the two scriptures. That is all this book is to me.

You state “JB, you don't seem to understand something very, very important:
The Theory of Evolution is not the basis for atheism”
You are not only deluded PG 13 you have a short memory! The first time I addressed you I stated that Evolution and science is only a tool you’ll (hedonists) rely on. You are not a scientist. I said it before you are a Heathen and take your desire or that of CNN as lord. Our faiths different and science will always be these and is a way in which we understand creation and use it to out benefit. Keep your Philosophy of 'accident' to yourself because it is the silliest thing a person can suggest.

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JB

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 12:17 pm
PG13, You state, “Evolution is solidly proven” Based on what? your appendix? Sure PG. Your “tree” for Human evolution is a not complete and may be missing many branches because as you agree, it is a work in progress. It would be funny if you guys were actually making a tree for an Orangutan instead of a Human or do you’ll Mix and match. Your debate allows you to expand from a missing link (within a tree Man to Ape) to a missing branch or hey guess what! its no longer a tree is a forest….lol Dr. Charles Oxnard and other anatomist have stated that these hominoids are nothing more than apes and not transitions! I will not ask you to prove the transition from plant to animal, fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, or reptile to birds and mammals. Because even the most hard core of evolutionist will admit it cannot be showthis except with pictures or computer animation…lol.
Read what a few of the Idols in the field have to say about the scientific nature of evolution a

“Paleontologists seem to have thought it their duty to protect the rest of us from the erroneous conclusions we might have drawn if we had known the actual state of the evidence."
"We (evolutionists) have been telling our students for years not to accept any statement on its face value but to examine the evidence, and, therefore, it is rather a shock to discover that we have failed to follow our own sound advice." John T, Bonner
"We Paleontologists have said that the history of life supports (the story of gradual adaptive change), all the while really knowing that it does not." Miles Eldredge,
"...the philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified...whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature." G.A. Kerkut

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." T.L. Moor,
"We cannot disprove that it (the universe) was created in 4004 B.C...." George Simpson,

Sure archeology is a science just like sociology and Psychology and politics is a science! I can see it is in you benefit to view it as such but the three objectives of archeology are anything but objective….lol. Spear us your certainty.

The bottom line is we believe the act creation is due to intelligence (Allah) while you say it was chance, fluke, accident; Our dispute is not science and I have told you in the past that Muslim scholars were among the greatest contributors to science. You probably watched one or two videos on the persecutions of scientist in Europe and as usual every time you find an opportunity to get confused and mixed up you do. Europe is on Islam PG13. So don’t bet and imagine my presence and reaction to Galileo….lol. I doubt their telescopes and chemistry will offer mankind a source of guidance or tranquility or even a constitution. Science can not do this.... men have attempted and still do.

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TLG

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 04:29 pm
Galool, hows't going cyber uncle? I guess I blew it, huh? It wasn't me though (btw, have you heard the song by Shaggy with the title "it wasn't me"?...oops, never mind...I almost forgot that your royal highness does not listen to hiphop/RB...particularly when the rap is in patwa...Next time, i'll remember to mention some James Horner title). It was my evil twin. It seems I'm now officially off the "misguided muslim pet" list. I knew this was coming, but not this soon!. I guess it is all common's fault.lol He should have advised me. He should have given me the tips of holding on to that "status" for a lil longer.lol. Now I feel how common feels!
PG also contributed to my being thrown out of this list! Before the arrival of PG, I was the "illustrious niece". Now, i'm some "snob". Some "spoilt brat" with some "high tech education" who "attempts" to "protect" others she views as "inferior" and incappable of debating with Galool. Darn you PG! Go back to where u came from! I want my status back!

So Galool, my ambassadors are on the way and lunch is on me. Whaddya say abtee, huh? Come on now, our diplomatic ties can't be distroyed that easily.lol.

Hey, I have a joke for you. Well, I tried this sort of bribery with PG once and it didn't work, so it might not work with you. I'll give it shot anyway.
Here it goes:
Bill Gates died and supprisingly was given the choice of going to hell or heaven since he did a great job of putting a computer in every household. He decided he wanted to sample both. His first trip was to hell. There, he saw beautiful beaches, women and everything else one would see in places like Hawaii. Then he went to heaven where everything was sooo peaceful. He decided that that peaceful place was too boring for him so he made a decission to go to hell. Upon entering hell, all he could feel was the intense heat of the fire of hell with people kicking and screaming asking for forgiveness (which was kinda late I guess). As the fire engulfed him, he exclaimed, "what happened to the beautiful place I saw before?" Then it was said to him, "hey Bill, that was the screen saver"

Sorry folks for intruding on your discussions. I just had to kinda sorta bribe my uncle with a joke, know what I mean?

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somegirl

Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 06:50 pm
lol@TLG
I did not know you listen to music or is that one of your "jahiliyah" (I learned that word from you) habits?
lol, The Billy Gates joke was funny.

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TLG

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 09:20 am
Somegirl, lol, I knew that questions was coming. NO alhamdulilah I don't listent to music anymore. And yes it was a jahiliyah habit. The Shaggy song was something that is always blusting in my brothers car everytime I get a ride from him. My room mate constantly plays it too.

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Galool

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 11:49 am
TLG

So God is a prankster. What a comforting thought! Any Being with a sense of humour like that is a far better advert for your faith than the torturing, ruthless, insecure, praise-seeking standard-issue one which you usually try to flog.

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PragmaticGal

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 01:09 pm
Galool:
Hehe. Lovely summary of the obvious but glossed-over attributes of the god of Islam.

And to answer a question you posed to Abu-Salman (Salman Rushdie's dad?) yes, Ilaahay magacyada carabta ayuu ka jecelyahay kuwa Soomalida. Sabtee kale ayay Soomalidu ugu yeeraan ciyaalkooda Nuur, Muxubo, Jamiilo, Abdirizaaq, iwm? Maxamed waala fahmi karaa, nabiga magaciisa waaye (inkastoo isba carab ahaa), laakin kuwa kale waa kadareey?

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PragmaticGal

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 01:25 pm
Galool:
I thought of something after I posted the above. Isn't it aggravating that we must not only adopt the religion, customs, and values of sixth century Arabs, but their names, language (According to Nour, the Glorious Qur'an is only glorious in Arabic!), laws, and enemies? Think about it: we have to adopt Islam, men have to grow long beards, women have to wear hijaab (an arabic word!), we have to memorize the Qur'an (and preferably learn Arabic), cut off the hands of thieves and stone adulterers (mostly adulteresses); name our first born son and daughter Maxamed and Fadumo respectively; we have to hate Jews--the traditional and historic enemies and cousins of Arabs.

Islam, in short, is an exercise in "Arabization" (if the word doesn't exist, it should). There's no way you can be a Muslim without extensively emulating Arabs.

Is it any wonder some Somalis happily trace our ancestry to Arabs?

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heheheheheh

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 05:11 pm
Is it more wonder some Somalis happily trace our ancestry to apes? heheheheheheh

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PragmaticGal

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 05:26 pm
Nour:

<in your first paragraph, when I read how you attach JB, I was thinking oh oh she is going to have "GOOD" point to say. Then you disappointed me with the rest.>

Have you noticed how you almost always start a reply to me with this sentiment? Why is it you always have high expectations that subsequently get smashed, Nour? Which message of mine set these impossibly high opinion of me in your head? Or do you always assume "Darwinists" have GOOD points to say?

<I can feel, you are getting weaker and shakier in your Darwinism belief(this is good, Walaalo).>

How did you come by this feeling, Walaale?

<For atheists who wants to forge some rationality in their atheism, there is nothing better than Darwinism. that is their only hope.>

And for theists who never impose ANY rationality in their theism, there's nothing better than creationism. To a theist, that life evolved over billions of years through known and understood laws of nature is irrational. That a supernatural, invisible, immaterial, powerful blob-in-the-sky created earth and all it contains in a week, shapped mud into a human male shape and infused it with life and a soul, excised a rib from him and made it into a human female is perfectly rational, sensible, and evident truth.

I hope you can understand why I am a little skeptical of your attack on Darwinism because it lacks your brand of "rationality".

<You can either be foolish brave(as Galool) and say,"I don't want believe in God,period".>

Actually, I do sort of want to believe in God. I was brought up to, after all; and I live in a society with most people living in one supernatural entity or another--whether it's gods, spirits, psychics, or horoscopes. But I don't believe all these things because I am a born skeptic. My response to most claims is "Oh yeah? Show me proof". My fate, you could say.

<or you can be foolishly coward and go about justifying your atheism by the doomed theory of Evolution.>

Can you show me where I "justify my atheism" with the Theory of Evolution? As for it being doomed, dead, or rejected, Mark Twain once told people who thought he had died, "The reports of my demise are very much exagerated" or something to that effect. You don't know how many times I read that "Darwin was wrong!" with some excitement, only to be disappointed by the author's misunderstanding of evolution, or misrepresentation of facts, or hidden agenda.

<One of the characteristics of Truth is that it never changes by time. It will always be Truth.>

True, but our perceptions of what truth is, and our ability to recognize it, DOES change over time. Today something is self-evident truth, tomorrow it's old-fashioned beliefs, and the day after that it's racism, sexism, or what have you.

<That is the case of the Holy Qur'an.>

The Qur'an as the Truth? You mean it encodes ALL Truth? That's just rot.

<Qur'an has a scientific verses and NO,I repeat, NO single scientific FACT contradicted those in the Qur'an.>

Actually, that's not true, I could give you several scientific mistakes in the Qur'an, but you'll almost certainly ignore them, or explain them away, or say they are metaphorical or whatever.

<This never happened before(even though people did not know about these science when the Qur'an was revealed).>

Wrong, it has happened before. The Bible, although popularly known for it's scientific bloopers, also has some scientific facts not known at the time--like that the earth was round. Also, Nostradamus is said to have predicted the television, air flight, etc. And the Book of Urantia, written sometime in the 1930's predicts the discovery of black holes. This sort of stuff is not really limited to the Qur'an, sorry to say.

<Now your only argument was to speculate what if this, what if that. I will say that since it never happened before and it will never happen.>

As I said, since it did happen before, The Qur'an is not particularly unique. Unique would be if it predicted the discovery of the Americas, the invention of telephones, air flight, etc. Or if there where clear scientific facts, not ambiguous mumblings: That the earth is a sphere and travels around the sun, which is still with respect to the earth, would be a nice unambiguous proof of scientific knowledge unavailable at the time. At most, we get inaccuracies, mumbo-jumbo, and descriptions of large-eyed, sexy boys.

<The facts in the Qur'an are way more than the scientific ones. When I read it, it makes me understand things more in very wide horizon. It tells you to think, ponder,and think again. It
gives lessons about yourself, mankind and the world. It tells your position and significance in this vast Universe. It tells you that things are running according to Plan and under control, know who you are and your relation with the Universe and it's CREATOR. Take it easy, try your best but know that you have limitations.>

You could also be describing the Bible, the Book of Urantia, or a self-help tract off the shelves of the local New Age bookstore. The question is not what the book claims--anybody can make claims about people, the universe and everything--the question is, am I foolish enough to believe it ALL without thinking for myself?

<If you follow these instructions given in this book>

...If I got a penny everytime someone told me that...

< (no need to worry about instruction change, revision and modification. It's already taken care of that. It will remain 1st Edition)>

Actually, there's nothing wrong with revisions. Personally, I'd like to see the inheritence laws revised--they don't make sense. And the bit where a husband can hit his wife (lightly)? that should really go.

And that stuff about eternal damnation? Uh-uh, unfair: How can I be damned in ETERNITY for actions spanning about 80 years? Actually, to Allah, a thousand of our years is like a day to him. So Allah, in his infinite mercy, sees me commiting an act (life) the duration of which is like a few seconds to him, but puts me in an eternity of hell for it? That makes sense, and makes you feel good, Nour?

<you will know your way around. It talks to the heart and peaces it. I can see the disadvantage of not knowing the Arabic. Ya Allah how people live without the Qur'an!!>

Very easily, let me tell you. I read some other human writings that "talk to the heart" too: --"Cosmos" by Carl Sagan made me feel awed, amazed, humbled, and elevated all at the same time;
--Ghandi's words on justice always touch me;
--a book on world peace written by a Baha'i made me feel hope;
--I can't get enough of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series: I laugh hysterically AND learn some subtle lessons on morality and free will;

But there are other things that make life without the Qur'an not only bearable, but also enjoyable (despite popular perception, an atheist's life is not glum, hopeless, or sad):
--I stepped out to my backyard and saw the first blade of grass and thought, Spring is truly here.
--My boyfriend told me he loved me half an hour ago, and without prompting! :-)
--This morning a total stranger asked me to help her with her three children at a busy intersection, which I gladly did.

I can live very well without the Qur'an, Nour.

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Nour

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 05:43 pm
PG iyo Galool

Ma ogtihiin in uu dadku ka kooban yahay qof ra'yi keena iyo qof ku raaca? Haddii uu qofku xaq wado waa reer hebel miyaa loo nacaa Xaqqa(Waa sida Yuhuudd badankood yeeleene)?
Ma ogtihiin in ay jiraan in badan oo Mohamed, Noor iyo Abdullahi layiraa oo Muslim ahayn?.
Ma ogtihiin Muslimiinta badankood in aysan magac Carbeed lahayn, Carabna ahayn.
Ma ogtihiin Surweelka/Goonnada aad xirato in Somali dhaqan iyo hidde u lahayn?.
Ma ogtihiin fikradda Darwin iyo Atheism in aysan Somalidu asal iyo ab u lahayn?. Ma ogtahay in English Luqqad Somali ahayn(oo Carrabigu u dhawyahay Somali).
Ma ogtihihiin in aad runta iska indha tiraysaan?
Ma ogtihiin in arag la'aanta qalbigu uu ka daran yahay midka indhaha?
Ma ogtihiin haddii uu nacayb iyo cuqdad idinka buuxdo in aad la dhimanaysaan
Ma ogtihiin .....?????

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abu salman

Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 08:17 pm
To Galool(al-murtad)
ugu horeeyn wiilkayga magiciisu waa salman, su'aashaas adiga ayaa isoo waydiiyay ee jawaabteeda qaado. Tan labaad waxaad itire wax baro, waan kaayeelay taladaas qofka muslimka ah ayaa u xaqnimo badan inuu wax barto in naftu ku jirto oo uu san marna ka daalin. su'aal hadii aad tahay nin wax bartay maxaad dhaqankii baadiya aad wali u haysataa qarnigaaan 21aad, waayo waxaan kaa arkaa qabyaalad oo ah in aad ii dii dantahay in aan carab ahaan karo anoo ku dhashay soomaaliya qora kuna hadlah afka soomaaliga maxaad iigu diidantahay in aan ahaan karo carab, sow ma ogid in aduunka oo dhan wada nool yihiin ayagoo kala qowmiyada kala duwan.

To dhamaan(muslimiinta) halkaan wax ku qorta.
Alle wuxuu quraanka in badan noogu sheegay in dadka gaalada ah markay Alle(subxaanahu watacaalaa)caayaan aan lala sii shee kaysanin oo fadhiga looga kaco: sidaas darteed nooma banaana in aan Shaydaanka Murtadka ah GALOOL oo iska gadaya cadaanka gaalada ah" u malayn maayo in uu gaalada madoow iyo kuwa carabta ahba uu jecelyahay" hadal la ii sii wadno. gaalada aan alle caayeeynin sida MAD MAC oo kale xaq bay nagu leeyihiin in aan xaqa u sheegno.
to PG
Alle ka baq maanta maalin aan ahayn ayaad ogaan doontaa oo Quraanka akhri hadii aad xaqdoon tahay.
May Allah guide all of us....Amin....

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AnotherGirl

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 07:16 am
TLG
You do not need any "diplomatic ties" with this Abu-Lahab! Give him a taste of his wrong philosophies like I know you can. It is evident that he never shows the same respect you have been showing him.

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Nour

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:20 am
PG

Walaashey, I will try to give brief comments about your long message( considering how you know English, I think, you can put those few ideas you got into smaller message and save us some time and boring).

Did you notice the sarcastic quotation on "GOOD" in your first paragraph.

Billions is too short, walaashey, take trillions and Hexalions. Still to make it easy, don't worry about living thing( it's very, very complicated). Just take matter and make it microscopically very small.Don't worry about very highly engineered system with planets orbiting, sun , moon and galaxies of trillions of light years away.
Make it very small and tell me what rationality and logic, what laws in physics, biology and mathematics that can bring that very small matter into existence from "absolute" nothiness( remember it's scientific absoluteness). The Laws, you use, must be non of the above because these laws showed otherwise. You don't need to see high class ryteric talk and some brain exercises by an atheist to see the bottom line here. Using your earlier "logic", these laws can not tell you how they(themselves) came about. These laws explain only how something came from something else within their scope. Hey there are too many scientific literature that explains the stupidity and irrationality of this theory better than me( although, we don't, really, need to read them to see the obvious). In this world, we can not understand, how something creates itself or nothing created something. if there is nothing , there is no even "chance". "Chance" comes after there is something.
It's impossible in logic, physics and biology. Again what you use for your belief? The only option left for our logic is that: Someone Who is beyond these laws must created them and these laws can not be applied to their Creator. Things does not make any sense without creator. even "Chance" needs to be created. So PG, walaashey, think for yourself, don't get brain washed by the good talk and big English vocabularies by these "high class" atheists.

I was surprised when you said that you were born skeptic and you buy this stupid theory. Yes fate happens in life. I saw it but I hope this is not your fate and destiny.

I don't know if you talking about the Bible or the Qur'an.This is what I'm talking about when I said you mix things(kaaf iyo kala dheeri).
I did not talk about bible or Urantia. I talked about the Holy Qur'an. The scientific verses in the qur'an are many and they are not ambiguous who needs interpretations, they are very clear in their description. All of them are verified by both Muslim and non-Muslim scientists against today's very well accepted scientific facts. And there is some which still humans can not answer right or wrong. It's true that Qur'an is not a scientific book who describes all elements and molecules.

Since you don't know Arabic(just Guess), go through all the well known English Qur'an translation and give me one verse that is contradicting one single scientific fact. I want real reference and something verifiable, not speculations.

The peace you get in your heart from the Qur'an is fundamentally different from that you described. We know what you talking about, we called it LAHWI( and sometimes some of it is permissible. Like that joke TGL posted) It's not based on reality it's just temperary calm down and tree's shadow that comes, goes and eventually leaves for good. Do You believe people use drags to get happy and peace of mind!!??. Like you want your boyfriend to to repeat "I love you", Baby say it again, and this time little bit louder. "I LOVE YOU". Hey that is too loud, say it gently and softly. And next time he doesn't even love you(God forbid). Wow, what a chock!, that peace of mind is gone. He broke my heart. You see how illusion it's
Of course, you live without the Qur'an, how many people live without it. The question is what kind of life?

Ps hey, you have a boyfriend and he says "I love you". that is not Somali tradition. How come you are Westernized and dare to accuse us "Arabatization"

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Nour

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:23 am
Oh well, I thought I'm going to be brief but it looks long.

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Anonymous

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:26 am
Bilal Ibn Rabah:

The first Muazzin of Islam, was one of the most trusted and loyal companion of Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.).He was a true model of the morals and customs of Islam. He cherished unbounded love for the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and was deeply devoted to Islam. He was a staunch foe of the infidels and idolaters but this involved no personal feelings. He held the infidels in deep contempt because they were the enemies of Islam and the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.).

He is, generally, known as "BILAL HABASHI", but actually his features were not identical with those of the. 'Habashi' or 'Zangi', His complexion was black but his hair was not curly, it was thick. Actually, his complexion was dark-brown. His body was tall and slim and his chest prominent. His cheeks were thin but his nose was not snub. Thus, as the historians opine, he was not a pure Abyssinian. His father was an Arab hut his mother was an Abyssinian. His father's name was Rabah and his mother was called Hamama, It is likely that Hamama was a slave girl from Mecca or Sarat, Sarat is a town between Yemen and Abyssinia, Some of the historians claim that he was born at Mecca, but the majority of the historians opine that Bilal was born in Sarat, And the latter view seem to be acceptable for there could be a mixed race in Sarat.

There is also a difference of opinion about his date of birth. According to some of the historians he was born 53 years before Hijra but according la some others, he was born about 43 year before Hijra, and this latter view seems to be preferable.

Bilal (R.A.A.) was brought up at Mecca, in a well known Quraishi tribe called Abu Jamah. During the Days of Ignorance, the members of this tribe were thought as experts in palmistry-reading the lines of hands. They also drew out lots with the help of arrows. This tribe had a constant dispute with Banu Abd Manaf because, when there was a conflict between Banu Abd Manaf and Banu Abd Dar, it had sided with the latter, The other Muazzins of the Prophet (S.A.W.) – Abu Mahzura and Amr bin Umm Kulsum -were also brought up in the tribe Abu Jamah. It is difficult to state whether it was a mere chance or it was due to melody and harmony of voice.

It is not known with authenticity as to who amongst the tribe of Banu Jamah was the master of Bilal and his father. Some have written that he was the slave of a noble woman of that tribe, while others claim that a widow related to Abu Jahl was his mistress. Again, some others have writer that he was the slave of Umaiya bin Khalaf.

Bilal (R.A.A.) had a natural hatred against the customs and practices prevailing in the Days of Ignorance, The people in those days were devoid of good morals, kindness and of other human values, deceit had become their second nature.

Allah had endowed Bilal with righteous nature and he remained true to it in his whole life. It is, therefore, held that he readily responded to the call of Allah's Messenger (S.A.A.) when he came out with the Message of Oneness or Unity of Allah. It is an established fact that Bilal (R.A.A.) had not embraced Islam with any worldly motive or securing relief from the torments of slave life On the contrary by accepting Islam, he had invited upon himself torment of double even treble intensity. He had only one purpose in view and that was to win the favor of Allah. Allah had illuminated his heart with the light of faith. Hence he endured all kinds of atrocities with remarkable patience and fortitude. It was in accord with his nature to accept the Truth unreservedly. As soon as he heard the clarion call for the acceptance of faith in One Allah and the equality of

all human beings issued by the noblest personality of the most respectable family, Banu Hashim, he at once made an affirmative response. His heart was as clean as Mirror, it was filled with the sentiments of affection, sincerity, obedience and devotion. The thought crossed his mind like a flash of lightning that the person who wanted to liquidate class differences in order to put the master and slave equal, was a man who belongs to the noblest class in Mecca. Yet he was a staunch champion of the equality of all human being, could not be but the Truthful Messenger and the Prophet of the Creator. He must have thought that it was impossible for a person, who enjoyed exceeding popularity in the whole of Mecca and commanded deep respect from the rank and file of Mecca, to risk to the loss of his popularity and reputation unless this person was the Messenger of the Lord who makes no discrimination between the high and the low, the rich and The poor, The Arab and the non-Arab.

Those who accepted Islam in the beginning were, except few, generally weak and helpless. They had no supporters or sympathisers. So the infidels inflicted endless in human tortures on them. Tying ropes to the legs of the Muslims, they dried them on the stony ground of the desert. They stripped the poor Muslims need and throwing them on the burning sand and often on red embers, placed heavy stones on their bodies. They forced them to stand in the blazing sun. Bilal too was tortured like that, They wanted him to make statement which suited the infidels' purpose But he displayed unflinching self-control, patience and perseverance. They employed all sorts of cruelties to divert Bilal from the True Faith but could not succeed. There was no form of threat which was not held nut to him, and there was no form of torture which the infidels did not execute on him, but Bilal (R.A.A.) on the face of all this, held firm to his faith. In reply to all of their coercion and tortures he said, "There is none to be worshipped but Allah." Bilal's master Umaiya Bin Khalaf was his greatest tormentor. In spite of all these tortures Bilal would utter, 'Ahad, Ahad' (Allah is One, Allah is One), When the tormentors demanded of him to respect what they said, Bilal would reply, "No, my tongue is not supposed to utter what you say."

According to historical records, Bilal's master often tied him and threw him down and flung a stone and cow hide over him and said, "Your gods are Lat and Uzza so testify your faith in them." But he continued to say "Ahad, Ahad." The infidels tied a rope round his neck and allowed the street urchins to drag him to and from between the two hills of Mecca. Even, under this severe torment, Bilal's tongue repeated only one word "Ahad, Ahad." Thereupon, the infidels gave him a severe heating and stretched him on the burning Sand.A heavy stone was placed over his body, still he uttered nothing save the word "Ahad, Ahad."

One day Abu Bakr Siddiq saw the heart touching plight of Bilal(R.A A.) and he came to his rescue. "How long will you oppress this poor fellow?" said Abu Bakr to Bilal's master and bought him paying men Uqia (about 23 grams of Gold) to his master. Siddiq then declared Bilal (R.A.A.) a free man. By enduring all sorts of atrocities and humiliations in the path of love for Allah and His Prophet, Bilal (R.A.A.) set an example and a beacon light till the end of this world, for the seekers after Truth and Righteousness. He knew well the consequences of renouncing idol-worship and offering devotion to One God Allah, yet so deep was the imprint of the righteous life and the unparalleled good morals of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) upon his heart that no degree of savage oppression and violence could blot it out.

Some historian state that when the price for Bilal was being paid, Bilal's master increased the price from 7 Uqias to 9 Uqias and Abu Bakr said to him, "Even if you raise the price to 1000 Uqias, I will definitely buy him."

It is stated that Siddiq bought Bilal at the advice of Allah's Messenger (S.A.W.) and the Prophet (S.A.W.) also offered him half of the price in order to mitigate the burden of Siddiq. But Siddiq begged pardon from the Prophet (S.A.W.) for not accepting this offer and he himself emancipated Bilal. He then appointed Bilal(R.A.A .) as his own store-keeper. Later on Bilal was made to serve to the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.). When the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) granted permission to his companions to migrate, Bilal, along with the other companions of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), migrated to Medina. In Medina Bilal lived in the same house with Abu Bakr Siddiq and Aamir bin-Fahria. In Medina when the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) established the bond of brotherhood between the 'Muhajireen' (Migrants) and 'Ansar' (Helpers), Bilal and Abu Rouwaiha (R.A.A.) were brothers unto each other. This clarifies that Abu Rouwaiha (R.A.A.) was not the blood brother of Bilal (R.A.A.)

As in Mecca, so in Medina, Bilal could not endure separation from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.).He always accompanied the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) in all the Holy wars that look place during the Holy Prophet lifetime. He also remained with the Prophet (S.A.W.) in the course of all journeys he undertook. It was for this reason that he was appointed the first Muslim of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.).

Bilal (R.A.A.) continued to the post of Muazzin of the Prophet's Masjid till the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) left this world for his heavenly abode He was preferred over all the Mauzzins during the Prophet's lifetime, the cause of this preference being his precedence in embracing Islam, his rich and melodious voice and his excellent utterance. When he recited the call of prayer and wished to inform the Prophet (S.A.W.) that the time for leading prayer had come, he would stand by the door of the Prophet's room and would shout "Hasten to the prayer, Hasten to well-being. O Messenger of Allah, prayer." Hearing his these words the Prophet would come for leading the prayers. Bilal (R.A.A.) would say Iqama before the prayers commenced. While going to Salat-el-Eid or Salat-Istisqa (prayer for rain), Bilal used to walk ahead of the Prophet(S.A.W.) holding a spear and would pitch it on the ground one or two yards away from the place where the Prophet (S.A.W.) wished to lead the congregation of the prayer. The spear was one of those three, sent by the King of Abyssinia in homage to the Prophet(S.A.W.), The Prophet (S.A.W.), gifted one of the three spears to Umar (R.A.A.) and kept the third one with himself, Thus Bilal had the honor of keeping the Prophet's spear throughout his lifetime.

Traditions relate that Bilal's marriage had been arranged by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) himself, It is stated that the sons of Abul Bukair one day came to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and said, "0 Messenger of Allah, find a match for our sister. "The Holy Prophet observe, "Why do you not marry her to Bilal Hearing this they went back, but after a few days they came again and repeated the same request, and the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) gave the same reply. Thus after a few days they came third time with the same request. This time also the Prophet (S.A.W.) giving the same reply added, "Bilal is an inmate of Paradise; you should marry your sister to him." So, having heard the Prophet's advice, they married their sister to Bilal. Bilal (R.A.A.) took more wives after this marriage. According to Qatadah he had married a lady of the tribe of Banu Zuhra. It is also recorded that one of his wives was Hin-ul-Khulania who belonged to Yemen. Bilal has no issue from any of his.

Once Bilal related to his wife a Tradition of the Holy Prophet(S.A.W.) but his wife expressed some doubts about the authenticity of his report. Bilal in a mood of anger went to the Prophet (S.A.W.) and recounted his dispute with his wife, The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) went with him to his house and observed to his wife, "You should take Bilal's words for any Tradition of mine, and do not give him cause for anger."

Bilal(R.A.A.) had given up announcing Azan after the demise of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). He cherished such deep love for the Prophet (S.A W.) that he could not bear the thought of announcing the call after his demise. In fact he used to announce especially for his Master, the Prophet (S.A.W.), in response to which the Prophet (S.A.W.) would arrive for prayer. During his stay in Medina and Syria, after the demise of the HoIy Prophet (S.A.W.), people made entreaties to him on several occasions to call the Azan, but he always declined, except once when Umar (R.A.A.) had visited Damascus and had requested Bilal to call the Azan. He complied with the request of the Caliph, and this was his last Call that, he delivered in his lifetime. As soon as the news got around that Bilal would deliver the Azan for the Dawn prayer, a great excitement was observed among the people . Everyone rushed towards the mosque with great fondness and in frenzied state of mind As soon as Bilal's voice resounded in the air, it produced a great excitement among the people . They recalled to their imagination the times when the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) was alive and Bilal used to recite the Azan . It is recorded in history that the whole congregation in the mosque burst into tears Umar (R.A.A.) and the bravest of the warriors Islam, who were present there, could not check themselves so all wept.

Some scholars are of the opinion that the present rhythmical form of recital of the Azan in the Muslim world, is the same as was originated by Bilal. One thing,

however ,must be clarified in this connection. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) had not appointed Bilal as the Muazzin for his masterly rhythm or melody of the rules but it was his exceeding piety, devotion to worship and regular

attendance in the mosque that the choice of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) fell an him for the performance of this important duty.

It is reported in the Traditions that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) paid close attention to the education and training of Bilal (R.A.A.). Once the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said, "O Bilal, The best deed that a believer can perform is to struggle for the cause of Allah. The Prophet (S.A.W.)also taught him concerning humility " 0 Bilal always live in humility and with contentment and die with those who feel contented."

The Prophet (S.A.W.),off and on gave him instructions concerning distribution of the surplus wealth with him i.e. the Prophet (S.A.W.) He would say, "Bilal, a quantity of wealth has accumulated with me I do not wish to keep it, so take it and give it away to the needy so that my heart may he alleviated from its burden " Actually the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) intended to teach Bilal by example how a man should cultivate the virtue of contentment in life and abstain from wealth. Bilal observed with great attention all the instructions and precedent of the Holy Prophet and proved to he a true follower and a devotee of the Prophet (S.A.W.) till the end of his life. He was in constant attendance on the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) day and night, because he derived delight from the sight, love and kindness. He performed the duties of an attendant upon the Holy Prophet in all circumstances, during journeys and stay in camp, in war and peace, but was never treated like a servant by the Prophet (S.A.W.), Bilal expressed deep devotion for his master and leader, He could not bear even the slightest discomfort of the Prophet (S.A.W.) and was alive ready to respond to his master's call. Throughout the battles he kept running between the Prophet's camp and the battlefield, bearing communications , orders and instructions from the Prophet (S.A.W.).to the troops when the Prophet (S.A.W.) made a victorious entry into the city of Mecca and the Prophet(S.A.W.) entered Holy Ka'ba, there were three men. accompanying him and one of them was Bilal (R.A.A.), the other two were Usman-bin-Talha , the key-bearer of Ka'ba and Usman bin Zaid (R.A.A.). Bilal performed the duty of reciting the call to prayer.

He recited the Azan for a few days only after the demise of the Prophet (S.A.W.) and then requested Abu Bakr Siddiq(R.A.A.) the Caliph to release him of the duty of calling Azan, and grant him leave to go to Syria with the Mujahideen (soldiers). It is stated that when in the absence of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) he pronounced the name of the Prophet while calling the Azan ,he could not bear the absence of his master and burst into uncontrollable tears . His audience too, stricken with grief, broke down. He felt oppressed in Medina without the Prophet, so in spite of being sixty years of age, he resolved to forsake his peaceful life in Medina and devote rest of his days to holy war in

far-away lands. He then participated in a number of battles. He then went to his small piece of land in the suburbs of Damascus, which he cultivated and lived on its produce. It is not known how long Bilal(R.A.A.) remained in the company of Abu Bakr(R.A.A).

After the reign of the first Caliph, Bilal was assigned some state duties, It is recorded in history that when the second Caliph Umar Bin Khattab (R.A.A.) called upon Khalid-ibn El Waleed - the Sword of Allah- to explain in connection with some of his alleged irregularities and errors, it was Bilal who took off Khalid's turban from his head and tied his hands with if in open assembly and did not untie him until Khalid (R.A.A.) had furnished a satisfactory explanation of all the charges made against him. After this he offered his sincere apology to Khalid(R.A.A.).

There is another episode that reveals the high esteem in which Bilal was held by Umar. It is stated that one day Abu shufyan-bin-Harb, Suhail- bin-Amr and some other prominent Arab Chiefs came to the Caliph for an interview. By chance Bilal and Sahib (an ex-slave) also arrived to meet the Caliph, When Umar learnt of their arrival he called in Bilal and Sohaib at once and the Arab Chiefs, who had come earlier, stood waiting outside. Abu Sufyan could not restrain himself turning to his companions he remarked, "It was our fate to endure this disgrace. The slaves are admitted to audience while we the nobles of Arabia stay at the door,"

Hearing this remark Suhail Bin Amr retorted, "But who is to be blamed for this? The Messenger of Allah invited us all with one voice but we refuted his call and offered severe resistance to him On the other hand these slaves came forward "and made a positive response, It is their right now to get preference over us in this world and the next. We have no cause for complaint,"

During the Caliphate of Umar (R.A.A.), when the registers of salaries and allowances were being prepared, the Caliph dispatched a letter to Bilal – who was with the army in Syria - asking him to intimate with whom his name should be entered.

"Enter my name with Abu Rouwaiha whom I shall never abandon on account of the fraternal bond established by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) between him and me," replied Bilal (R.A.A.).

Except the episodes mentioned above, history furnishes no further record of his life after the demise of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), It is recorded that he had joined the Muslim Army in the Holy War in Syria. But he had completely dissociated himself from the public life in the closing phase of his life, As we have stated above, he acquired a piece of land in the outskirts of Damascus and passed his days in peace and isolation, After this nothing was heard about him but he was seen in public when he called Azan for the Caliph Umar (R.A.A.) on the request of the eminent companions of the Prophet (S.A.W.).

It was the year 20 of Hijra when Bilal (R.A.A.) expired in Damascus. He was seventy when he died. He died of epidemic like plague. It is stated that he was of the same age as was Abu Bakr Siddiq (R.A.A.). On his deathbed he was very glad at the prospect of meeting his master, the Prophet (S.A.W.) and his companions who had already gone to the next world. When his wife cried out by his bedside and began to weep bitterly, he comforted her saying:

"Do not cry. Why do you weep'! l am looking forward to see my master, the Prophet (S.A.W.) and other companions after such a long reparation. If Allah wills I shall meet them all tomorrow." And he really expired the day after, "Innalillah-e-Wa Inna Ilai-he-Raje-oon."

He was buried in Damascus, near 'Bab-as-Sagheer'. His tomb is even today the favorite resort of crowds of visitors, People, high and low, come to offer prayers (Fateha) at his grave.

Among the people Bilal's credibility was e high that they would rather disbelieve their own eyes Than cast doubts on Bilal's report of any Tradition of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), because he paid the greatest regard to truth in all matters concerning the action or precepts of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W,), as well as in the affairs of others. When Abu Rouwaiha (R.A.A.) his brother-in-Islam, wanted to contract marriage with a lady of a respectable tribe, he requested Bilal to intercede on his behalf. Bilal went with him and told in clear terms to the guardians of the bride, "I am Bilal-bin-Ribah and this is my brother Abu Rouwaiha, who wants to establish matrimonial relation with you. So, I must point out that he is a very hot-tempered a man. It is up to you to give your daughter in marriage to him or refuse." Hearing this clear-cut testimony of Bilal the parents of the ady accepted the proposal of Abu Rouwaiha (R.A.A.), for they could not disregard Bilal's recommendation.

Seeing the various aspects of Bilal's life we come to the clear conclusion that the most prominent feature of his life was his complete honesty and integrity. It was on this account that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) had entrusted to Bilal the management of the Baitul Mal (State Treasury). He was also in charge of the house hold of the Prophet (S.A.W.). He remained close at hand even at the time of the Prophet's departure for heavenly home and was included among the selected few who performed the funeral rites of the Prophet (S.A.W.). It was Bilal who sprinkled water from a skin-bag over the sepulchre of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), and thus, gained the rare privilege of administering the last funeral rites.

Bilal, because of his sincerity, was an extremist by nature. He loved intensely and hated intensely. He loved intensely Allah and His Prophet (S.A.W.) and was deeply devoted to Islam, but he was, at the same time, a staunch foe of the infidels and polytheists, and he never tried to hide his feelings and contempt for them.

Bilal (R.A.A.) left no legacy in the form of material wealth or offsprings, but he left a spiritual memorial which is unique in the world, that is Azan. The call to prayer has been recited continuously in the world, for the last fourteen hundred years of Islam, and as the people hear the call it recalls to mind the memory of the First Muazzin of Islam, Bilal bin Ribah (Radia Allahu 'Anhu).

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Anonymous

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:30 am
BELIEVE IN ALLAH

He is Almighty Allah who is described by Ibrahim as :

1 – "Who created me, and it is He who guides me; Who gives me food and drink. And when I am ill, it is He who cures me; who will cause me to die, and then to live (again). And who I hope will forgive my faults on the Day of Judgment", (Al-Shuaraa "The Poet"' : 78 - 82)

Allah the Most High created the whole universe with its skies and earth, and all creatures of humans, animals as well as plants and the inanimate beings. He is the Benefactor of the whole universe. We are required, as Muslims to think of Allah's blessings. His power and Attributes. However, we should not be thinking of His being, so that we do not go astray. In the Qur'an Allah says that "there is nothing like Him. Belief in the existence of one God is felt by sound nature and is sought by sound mind.

The Most High said,

2 – "So set your face toward religion, as one upright, for it is the innate nature given by Allah, upon which He created men. No change is there in Allah's creation. That is the right religion but most people know not". (Al Roum "The Romans": 30)

It was mentioned in the prophetic Hadith, "Every newborn is born on nature and his parents make him Jew, Christian or a pagan", this indicates the changes brought on sound nature, ready for believing soundly in Allah, by the family or conditions surrounding man, If we meditate the power of Allah in the universe and in the soul, we will believe that Allan is One.

He says :

3 – "And in the earth are signs for those who have firm faith, and in yourselves. Do you not discern?". (Al-Zariyat "The scattering" : 20-21)

Many verses motivate people. to think of Allah's power manifested in His creation, skies and earth. The fair and mindful will then come to believe in Allah as a result of thankfulness to Allah for His blessings,

The following verses emphasize the Oneness of Allah Almighty Allah Says .

4 –"Say He is Allah, One. Allah the Eternal refuge. He begets not, nor has He been begotten, and neither is there any equal to Him". (Al-Ikhlas " Pure Religion" )

5 – "Were there to be gods in both (heaven and earth) other than Allah, they both would have been corrupted. So glory be to Allah, Lord of the Throne above what they describe. (Al-Anbiya "The Prophets" 22)

6- "Allah has not begotten a son, neither is there a god with Him for then every god would take control of what he created, and surely some of them would raise themselves above others. Glory be to Allah above what they describe, (Al-Mo'minoun "The Believers": 91)

So, sound nature and mind as well as meditation in the greatness of Allah's creation guide to belief in the existence of the One Almighty Allah. Belief in one God, dominating the whole world makes of Him closer to His servants than their jagular vein.

Almighty Allah says:

7 – "And if My servants ask you concerning Me-surely I am nigh. I will answer the call of the supplicant when he entreats Me. Hence respond to Me, and let them believe in Me that they may be guided aright( Al-Baqara "The Cow": 186)

Man does not need mediation to win Allah's forgiveness Repentance and good deeds are the sole means to get this desired forgiveness Almighty Allah said:

8 – "Say :O My servants who have squandered their detriment, despair not of Allah's mercy for He truly He absolves all sins ". Surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful". (Al-Zumar "The Hordes" : 53)

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Anonymous

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:39 am
There is FAITH in Allah and there is FAITH without Allah:

Lets look at FAITH in Allah first:

The principles of Faith are found in the Hadith in which Gibreel asked Prophet Muhammad about Faith. The prophet's answer included :

Belief in one God
The Creator and Benefactor of the universe to whom everything and every being returns. He is the model of perfection and glory, not by any means deficient. He is Almighty Allah who is described by Ibrahim as :


29- "Who created me, and it is He who guides me; Who gives me food and drink. And when I am ill, it is He who cures me; who will cause me to die, and then to live (again). And who I hope will forgive my faults on the Day of Judgement". (Al-Shuaraa-The Poets 78 - 82)
Allah the Most High created the whole universe with its skies and earth, and all creatures of humans, animals as well as plants and the inanimate beings. He is the Benefactor of the whole universe. We are required, as Muslims to think of Allah's blessings. His power and Attributes. However, we should not be thinking of His being, so that we do not go astray. In the Quran Allah says that (there is nothing like Him). Belief in the existence of one God is felt by sound nature and is sought by sound mind.




The Most High said:
30- "So set your face toward religion, as one upright, for it is the innate nature given by Allah, upon which He created men. No change is there in Allah's creation. That is the right religion but most pepole know not". (Al-Roum «The Romans» : 30)
It was mentioned in the prophetic handith, "Every new born is born on nature and his parents make him Jew, christian or a pagan", this indicates the changes brought on sound nature, ready for believing soundly in Allah, by the family or conditions surrounding man. If we meditate the power of Allah in the universe and in the soul, we will believe that Allah is One.



He says:

31- "And in the earth are signs for those who have firm faith, and in yourselves. Do you not discern?". (Al-Dhariyat «The scattering» 20-21)
Many verses motivate people to think of Allah's power manifested in His creation, skies and earth. The fair and mindful will then come to believe in Allah as a result of thankfulness to Allah for His blessings.


The following verses emphasize the of Allah. Almighty Allah Says:

32- "Say `He is Allah, One. Allah the Eternal refuge. He begets not, nor has He been begotten, and neither is there any equal to Him". (Al-Ikhlas Pure Religion)

35- "Were there to be gods in both (heaven and earth) other than Allah, they both would have been corrupted. So glory be to Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe" (Al-Anbiya "The Prophets" 22)



So, sound nature and mind as well as meditation in the greatness of Allah's creation guide to belief in the existence of the One Almighty Allah. Belief in one God, dominating the whole world makes of Him closer to His servants than their jagular vein.



Almighty Allah says:
35- "And if My servants ask you corncerning Me, surely I am nigh. I will answer the call of the supplicant when he entreats Me. Hence respond to Me, and let them believe in Me that they may be guided aright». Al-Baqara "The Cow" : 186)

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Galool

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 01:43 pm
Abu-Salman

Sharaf baad leedahy. War qofka basharka ahi xaq buu u leeyahay in uu cidda uu rabo sheegto. Marka Abu Salman marba ha u fikirin in aan anigu kuu diidanahay Carabnimadaada. Haddiiba aad carab isu aragto carab baad tahay, taasina ceeb ma leh.

War ma anaa kuu diiday ilmahaga inaad ku tilmaanto magaca aad rabto? Mudnow sharaf, iyo aqoon. Mar kale, xaq iyo nus baad u leedahy in cidda aad rabto aad tahay. Carab baad tahay. Ilmahaaguna waa carab. Taas ceeb miyaa?

Wasaalama caleykum yaa abu salmaan.

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Galool

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 02:00 pm
PG

Shaki ma leh xariirka ka dhexeeyo Islaamka iyo Carabnimada. Kuwa Wadaniyiinta ah oo Carabta ah, weli waa ku faanaan Carabnimada, taasna waa la garan karaa. Annaguba haddii dunida qayb weyn oo ka tirsani aaminsanaan leheyd wiil Soomaali ahi waxaas u sheegay kun iyo shan boqol ka hor, saw kuma faani lahayn?

Say u macaantahay masna u adag tahay inaan af -soomali kugula hadlo? Qiimayn aan lasoo koobi karin aan kuu hayaa.

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JB

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 04:05 pm
Brother Nour, please don’t call atheist “high class” even in jest. They are lower than the scum that they leave behind in their bathtubs. Everything worships Allah living or dead, material or immaterial. These people are best described as arrogant and blinded (also deaf and dumb) Hedonist (take their desires as lord!). They desire to challenge Allah and Allah gives them a rope by which they may hang themselves. If hedonist were “lords” they would have desired to live without eating, sleeping or relieving themselves in the washroom (or in public as they often do). However, they are forced to submit to these Laws imposed on mortal souls. Allah has given them (and us) freewill in many regards to choose between good and bad and at times between mere obedience and disobedience. (these two alternates are never in opposition). Allah asks them,

“Do they seek for, other than the Religion of Allah? while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or UNWILLINGLY, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back” and …..“Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back”

It is not surprising that a person deficient in intellect talks about a beautiful ‘clock’ and argues with the rest of us about a ‘clockmaker’. Their best answer is fluke! I kid you’ll not they say accident. It is amazing; in the signs of Allah they seek to disprove him! They want to use the laws, which governs nature to disprove Allah! Instead of saying there is a Lawmaker they say Fluke. They have no answer for us and they ask us to abandon our ‘fanciful’ belief in a Lawmaker! And they mock the verses that suggest the universe and all of creation (seen or unseen) has wisdom and justice behind it. Allah says,

“Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.”

And she (PG13) suggests it was a Fluke, Poor girl read a few books on evolution (or science) and abandoned Islam and Belief in Allah. Islam has no arguments with science or even micro-evolution but to suggest that a brew or (mixture of creation!) explains the Rooh or life or the spirit. She is unable to comprehend what the essence of life or death is. It is more than just cells. I remember once talking to a Muslim doctor and he told me, at the time of death in a hospital the doctors are forced to pick or diagnose a cause of death. I suppose this is to comfort stubborn kufar/atheist .… don’t worry he died from Melancholia Exhaustion or even funnier “Old age” this is a clinical term. They died from old age they only use this when all others categories fail ……I laugh as I type this. What is death that affects a healthy child as well as an old person? Fluke.

Thanks to brother Nur I read surat Al Anbiyah (prophets) and I came across this narration Ibbnul Abbas was asked which came first the night or the day? He answered by saying, “ do you think that when the heavens and the earth were joined together, there was anything between them except darkness? Thus you may know that night came before the day” (reported in tabari). The self admitted skeptic (PG) will say Muslims will twist the scripture to meet scientific standards of the day. This is how Allah extents the rope with a noose by which atheist will hang!

“And for theists who never impose ANY rationality in their theism, there's nothing better than creationism” nothing you’ve suggested about creation or its origin has been rational! A lawmaker or the analogy of clock maker is 100 times more rational than a fluke. Wouldn’t you say, As for angels and other unseen matters they are parts of faith and are confirmed by many. From time to time there are reports of unexplained phenomena’s. Some explain it in a religious manner and others explain it as a mystery. Those who claim to have seen Angels helping them will be dismissed by PG and her tribe (of atheist) as hallucinating and if it was witnessed in a group you will say it is mass hallucination. Ether way their presence or absences should not be a point of contention. What do people in the medical community say when they witness the Quran curing a sick person! Or other unexplained matters. What do you suggest PG, placebo? Perhaps some but others may be true and the diagnosis of placebo is a confession to ignorance and leaves room for the unseen mechanisms. If you are Somali then you have seen this or heard of it. I have seen some, some more impressive than others.

The big bang, Indeed, it has been admitted by leading atheists, such as philosopher Antony Flew, that this point has become their nemesis This is because an origin implies that there was once ‘no thing’ – whatever that may mean – and that such a rude beginning borders on the now taboo or embarrassing question of ‘God’ or a Creator. This is not to say that many scientists have not tried to escape the dreaded ‘beginning’ by postulating an accidental universe; however, their ‘solutions’ themselves have been highly problematic, unprovable or wildly speculative, such as: imaginary time, quantum fluctuation, multiple-universes, infinitely cyclical universes, et cetera, et cetera…blah blah this and Blah blah that. In fact, it appears that all the purported solutions to escape the singularity problem are haunted by the growing awareness that there appears to be intelligence embedded within the processes of the universe. This line of thought, under the right conditions, would naturally lead to the logical question as to whether there is some connected overall purpose to the universe and, concomitantly, a species such as the human being.
Unfortunately you suffer from a serious case of Eurocentric perspective on the nature of religion, and tend to thereby color Islam as just another dogmatic belief system. What makes your illness particularly repugnant is the fact that you are Somali! This implies you have very low self-esteem and border on self hate. The word for ‘belief’ in Arabic does not mean ‘belief’ construed as ‘blind faith’, as it has evolved to mean in Christianity and many other belief systems. In fact, this blind-faith notion is echoed in the authoritative proclamation of St. Augustine: “Credo quia abserdum est” – “I believe, because it is incredible”. In stark contradistinction, the word for ‘belief’ or ‘faith’ that is used in the Qur’an, is iman, which has, at its root amana. This word means to confirm or verify things. Therefore a real Muslim is one who confirms ideas and statements, and is not given to accepting ideas without proof and evidence. Muslims had learned and then further developed the thought heritages of the Ancients, and in so doing, evolved the conduction of science to new and novel heights. As medieval historian Thomas Goldstein has remarked in his book, The Dawn of Modern Science: From the Arabs to Leonardo Da Vinci: “Every single specialized science in the West owes its origins to the Islamic impulse – or at least its direction from that time onwards”. It is laughable that you try and use science against us. We have a love affair with science! The following is from a book my friend is about to publish



‘Perfect ‘Convergence between Islam and science’

Through the influence of the Muslim philosopher Ibn Rushd’s (Averroes’) writings and that of others, the European Averroists in the Middle Ages set the trend for rationally criticizing authority based on mystical doctrines. Since the Qur’an fostered such a transformation of the West itself, it is in reality, a neglected part of the Western legacy, and is a document that is vitally worthy of scrutiny. This is because the Qur’an invites self-examination and proof at the crux of its fundamental framework.
The Qur’anic approach is proof-seeking and teleological, that is, it is purpose, intention and design based, being identical in many respects with Unitarian beliefs, which had many well-known adherents such as Voltaire, Newton, John Locke, Milton and Joseph Priestly. The message of the Qur’an is that of Unitarianism, albeit an advanced and completed version of it, as the sample verses on embryology, geology and evolutionary cosmology illustrate. If one recollects, these Unitarians within Christendom, like the true Muslims, denounced mysticism, believed in rationality, and did not regard Jesus as divine or semi-divine.

Perfect ‘Convergence’
In the globally united vision exposited by the Qur’an, non-contradiction and teleology are intricately interconnected, as much as dominant present day indeterminacy and relativism are inextricably intertwined with the notion of a blind chance-based universe. These two roads – one of intelligence, the other of chance – tend to lead individual thought and socio-environmental structuring into diametrically opposite destinations.
Taking the route of intelligence, rather than that of chance, if humanity realizes that the Qur’an is nature’s precise reflector, to be used as a prescriptive guide and motivator to prevent or cure our mounting socio-environmental problems, there would be an eventual dissolution of the artificial boundary between the sacred and the profane, science and divinity, through a natural rapprochement based on the correlation between causality in nature and pristine revelation. Inevitably, such a rapprochement would further set the stage for transforming human thought towards a unitary understanding of the whole purpose of creation and man’s role within the vastness of cosmic order. In fact, anyone imbued with such an outlook would not be searching for a pristine revelation to act as a bridge between science and religion. That which is one, needs not to be bridged. Indeed, in this vein of reality, it can certainly be proclaimed that science is truly religion and religion truly science.
If these ideas of verifiable unity are eventually realized, then the whole of humanity would indubitably reap the benefits of a perfectly complementary relation between the usage of scientific reasoning and the usage of revelation, where each one symbiotically reinforces the value of the other, for the enhancement of both humanity and the rest of nature, whilst simultaneously pointing to the very same ultimate providence. ”


You sate “Actually, I do sort of want to believe in God.” I find that hard to believe because your disbelief is not based on knowledge or science or common sense but in spite of your intelligence you choose to say fluke! ‘Darwin was wrong?’ Do you think Darwin is a threat to Allah? Or Islam? His followers wish to sell macro evolution and even if it is sold to the masses of atheist, scientist, Muslims and the rest of creation it does not address origin, purpose, order (as opposed to disorder which happens and is easier to achieve than order! Especially in an explosion) laws, consistency and many other thing you try to explain of by saying accident! Give it a rest for you have nothing better to offer us and sure enough you will return to whence you came. And I don’t mean apes or chimpanzees, No PG! Allah says,


“Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.”

“And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.
If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did”

Your attack on Arab culture and hijab is flimsy and deserves, no comment, the realty on the ground speaks for itself. Indonesians and other Muslims have there own colorful traditions. Islam does away with the filth you desire mankind to indulge in. Arabization or Americanization what does it matter to you? You are Somali and your hatred of a Language which is similar to ours is mind boggling. Hair covering for women is not unique Islam or Arabs. You could have phrased your comments in a way the make it a gender issue. Your attack on Islam is not well thought out. I suggest you stick with your exercises in logic (X does this there for Y must be and if A or B if/and G) lol. Science and history are your enemies. Be honest with us for once and say you seek to be your own lord! If everyone was like you this planet would be full of disorder and confusion, like we read in the book ‘heart of darkness’ (an ‘autobiography’ of a hedonist). Like it or not Islam is the fastest growing religion, more and more women are choosing the veil based on knowledge. While you mock the Quran, even a parrot like you has to admit there is not another book like it! Allah’s challenge remains….produce a book like it or even chapter like it. This challenge has not been meet in 1400 years. You have seen the Miracle of the Quran if you’re a Muslim or not. The Kufar admit its superiority over any other book! I bet the book you write will not even be memorized by you, nor will it be studied or commented in any fashion that resembles what has happened with the Quran. It must hurt……
If you want to Believe in Allah there is nothing in the form of science that stops you, It is your desires that holds you back.

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diasporagal

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 04:44 pm
Galool writing in Somali almost make him sound like an aakhiyaar................that is scary!

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Sara

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 05:10 pm
PG, why are you assuming that Islam entails 'Arabazation' (your word). Haven't you seen other nationalities that practice Islam all over the world From China to Venazuela, Central Europe to West Africa and beyond. Please don't allow your myopic sight to deny the diversity of the Islamic world.

I think you and Galool crave attention, otherwise why would a couple of self-proclaimed aetheists continously post/respond and start topics on this Islamic pages?

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WGN

Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 08:42 pm
JB, I think you are the angry Anonymous...
Do me a favour, don't lower yourself to an atheist's level... :O Just keep in mind that you are less than a dot in this universe...lol!

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Nour

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 04:40 am
JB, I agree with you 100%. I did not mean the "High class" in real sense. I was just refering in the Western materialistic Capitalistic sense.

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Nour

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 05:38 am
JB

MashaAllah !!!
Jazaka Allahu for your good work

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Anonymous

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 07:51 am
Yaab ayey Leedahay. Hadduu maanta Galool Somalinimu iyo wadani nimo ka hadlayo. Hadba meel kasoo jeedso, sidii nin waayey meel uu ciirsado. marar badan ayaan ku arkay, adoo Somalida wax ka sheegaya, Oo ka soo hor jeeda wadaniyiinta waxa iyo dadka ay ku fanaanaan iyo taariikhdooda. Waxaan kaloo arkay, adoo qaniisnimo iyo wax Somalidu aad u necebtahay difaacaya, oo tiri waxaan damcaa wiilasha dariskayga ah.
Haddii ay run kaa tahay, in wiil Somali wuxuu qabto aadku faani leheed, waxaadan caydeen, kuwii Gumaystaha lasoo dagaalay, oo naftooda ku waayey oo calanka taagay.
Waa calaamadaha Munaafaqa, in uu sidii caleen Xagaa, hadba meel u bido.

Maluhu ma fiicna lakiin. Waxaan ogahay in Somalidu Qaniisnimada aad u necebtahay(Wax la nacana waa yahay). Malaga yaabaa in ay sabataas tahay waxa Somalida iyo diinteeda kugu diray?. Su'aashu dacaayad igama aha ee waa iga daacad.

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JB

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 08:49 am
Nour Akhil Aziz,
I Know you were being sarcastic by calling atheist ‘high class’. I was just using your comments as a launch pad for my ‘post’. Sorry for the confusion walaal.

WGN,
Where did that come from? Angry anonymous person. If I said it once I’ve said it a hundred times my name is JB (on this forums) LoL :)… Hmmm now I’m thinking who is this anonymous person that resembles me soo??? Lucky guy…..or Gal loool. I would Advice them not to get angry on a discussion board because its not worth getting Upset over a ‘strangers’ Comment.
I will heed your advice and pray that Allah protects me from being foolish enough to spit in the sky only to have my spittle fall back on my face. I agree with what you said I am only a dot in this here vast universe (or less than a dot) This is why I worship it’s creator and my creator. Some people find this too difficult to accept.

PG:

Please accept my apologies for using the Scum analogy as it was uncalled for. You have also called me names in the past. Islam is a conscious choice that many of us have made and I in no way will force you to convert. I think your preference for accident over intelligence is wrong.

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Galool

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 01:38 pm
Anonymous

Adeerow maa isku sheexdid. Duq weyn oo Soomaali ah oo gar-cadde ah maa Qaniis ku sheegee? Sidaas miyaa Islaannimada aad sheeganayso?
Meeshaan waa lagu doodaa ee laguma caytamo. Marka fikir oo sida dad badan sameeyaan ra'iyigaaga soo gudbi dadkase ha u gefin.

Nabad gelyo.

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Anonymous

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 02:53 pm
Iga Raalli ahow. Haddii aan kuu gafay. Adaan kaa maqlay adoo leh Qaniisnimadu waa caadi. Marka u malaymayn in aad gaf u qaadanaysee. Odayaal badan oo falfalxumo ku cirroobana waa iska jiraan. Midda kale waxaan is iri qof Ilaahii abuurtay inkiray, wax uu ka xishoodo miyaa jira. Haddii aad Bini'aadamka, ka wareegsa karto, soo ma aha in aad waxaad rabto samaysid?

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azhom

Friday, March 30, 2001 - 08:33 pm
TO GALOL AND HIS GROUP
This my first contribution to this forums. I have not been able to read all ideas posted here. Nevertheless i must respond to some issue raised here in general terms. Now the theory evoluation
states, during the long period of man's so called emamcipation from the animal world, It is claimed that the external difference e.g walking erect, the development of speech, and interlegence took a very long time and were hardly noticeable. We are also told that it is not clear whether a being who resmbled man as well as an ape and used a stick to prolong his arm to reach for food, or uttered inarticulate sounds to communicate with his fellows was man or an ape. However this argument is derail by the presence taboo. to say that an ape (an animal) had taboos that mordern apes lack, sinks the whole idea evoluation as continuing process. Whatever the merits of such a view, the decisive difference between man and animal in my view is neither a physical nor an interlectual one. It is above spiritual one,manifesting itself in the presence of some religious, ethical, and aesthetical conscience.
Ironically according to evoluationist primitive man 15000 years enjoyed look at flowers and profile of animals and the painted at well of his caves. from this stand point - nearer to true man than mordern epicure who lives only to satisfy his physical pleasures. Evoluationist tell every where a primetive man's skull was found prohibitions existed there was costant need purification. In fact universal idea that dominated the minds of primitive men was idea of panishment.
Indeed does not behave as a child nature but rather a stranger in it. His basic feeling is fear but not biological fear animals feel. It is a spiritual, cosmic, and primeval fear bound to the screts and riddles of human existance. This position of primitive man is only way to the appearance of different prohibitions and concepts of impurity, sublimity, damnation, holiness and so forth. If we were the product of this world nothing would seem impure or holy to us. These concepts in my view are contradictory to world we know. They are evidence of our origin. our inadequuate reaction to this world as express by religion is the negation of the scientific concept of man. the question why did he alway express his fear and disapointment through religion? why and from what did seek salvation from? this side of man we are talking about (good,evil,the feelings wretchedness, the permanent dilmma between intrest and conscience, the question of our existance and so forth) remains without a rational explanations. Obviously, man did not react to the world around him in a Darwinian way. The theory evoluation can neither explain in a satifactor way the first religious phase of man kind nor the same phenomena in morder times. Although darwin's theory was considered by some to be the final explanation of man's origin it time to disregard it, in the same way the Cosmos theory of newton was.

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