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     | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 01:25 am Saxib, I have a question. There's this anonymous dude who's trying to make it impossible for me to read or access posts or post myself by overloading specific threads with cut and paste articles. By his own admission he is simply doing it to get on my nerves and make it impossible for me to participate in conversations (even if he has to sabotage the conversation for everyone). I say this is un-Islamic, because he has a duty (da'wa) to try and make me see the Islamic point of view and convert me. He says he has an Islamic responsibility to "annoy kufaar". You and Asad (who I haven't seen in a while) are the most knowledgeable here on the net about strict inerpretion of the Qur'an and the hadith, who's right? You've posted with me enough to know that while I might not always change my mind, I always give poeple a fair shot and their day in court. What do you say here? He's been driving me into other peoples posts, which I promised TLG I would stop doing (and I've kept my promise).
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 01:59 am Mad. Good to hear from you. Onething very important, I am not the most knowledgeable on the net. I am talkative, butt in where I don't belong, envite myslef into arguments lol. I give you a list of knowledgeable people on this net so you can ask them as well. ps: Asad(ANON) is on vacation somewhere on the world I don't know. He told me he won't answer his e-mails for a while and will be away. He said he will be back sometime April. Salafi, ND, JB, NUR, NOUR, ABUSALMAN, ABUXAMZAH, Common, Muslimah, TLG, STRANGER and many more I can't recall their usernames. They can answer your questions. If you want my opinion about your concern, ANONYMOUS should fear Allah and use HIS WISDOM IN DEALING WITH YOU IF YOU ARE SINCERE(I am not saying you are not). Anonymous; If you are reading bro, I like frst Of all your contributions. I also bookmarked some of it. I would like to advice you though about Mad Mac's concern. He has the right to hear about islam. He visits this net knowing that it is not an american website or a christian or jewish website but a website affliated with muslims particualrly somalis. I think you can put all that into consideration see the value of keeping mad feel at home. I think you know islam more than I do. Allah will ask you in the day of judgement how you responded to MAD MAC for sure. I think it won't hurt to respect people regardless of their beliefs. You are the carrier of the islamic message and one who represents the prophet of islam. Be understanding. I hope you forgive me if you are offended by what I SAID HERE.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:09 am Mad. Anonymous should respect your concerns is what I meant my message.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:47 am I have problems with that thread as well last time I wanted to say a few things but took me ages to open it so I gave up.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 06:01 am Mad Mac, Fg, Faaisa, The facts is that kufars didn't always like the ways the Prophets, but the Da'wa continued. The Kufars hated to hear the Qur'an. The kufars killed prophets when the Prophets would not stop giving information to the kufars. The Prophets didn't compromised. Know who you are speaking with, that is to say, know where the person is coming from. What kind of background i.e.; Christian, Jew or other. Present their beliefs and compare between them. When you feel close to Allah(SWT) and love for Islam it is only natural that you want to share that knowledge with others, but most kufars do not like to talk about their beliefs because they are hypocrites. Debating is a no win situation in Da'wa. No one wants to be told they are wrong or incompetent. Don't be disappointed if you get a bad reaction from the kufars and those who do not like to hear the truth. A very good point to keep in mind, and that is that we are all human beings and deserve the opportunity to know the truth, regardless even the enemy of Islam need to hear the truth eventhough they do not like it. Da'wa is the term used, in Islam, to invite others to Islam. This doesn't necessarily mean that the sole purpose is to make the person Muslim, but to give that person the most honest and pertinent information about it. A big misconception with some people making Da'wa, is that it is to make a person feel good, happy. We know that only Allah(SWT) can make a person a Muslim.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 08:31 am Anonymous Maybe the "Kufaars" objected to what Mohammed had to say, but you have to admit I'm not your run of the mill Kufaar. In fact, I believe that Mohammed was both a Prophet (although I would define Prophet a little differently than you) and a great man. But the problem with your postings is I can't figure out what you're trying to communicate. You've got me (and everyone else) on information overload here. It rapidly gets to the point where I can't even open the page because you've posted so many incongruous (at least I think they're incongruous, there's too many to read) things. If you could just condense things a little, or maybe post an article to support a contention, someting to keep things in context, that would help. That's all I'm saying here. I'm not contesting your right to post or express yourself, I'm just saying that you are making it difficult to have a discussion (which is what this is suppose to be, a discussion board) Ya know wht I mean?
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 09:14 am Mad Mac, All I can say is THAT I have no room for your tantrum. I just keep ignore your complaining. More posting will come. hehehehe
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 09:20 am Mad Mac, Debating in religion is a no win situation in Da'wa; therefore, I'm not going to debate with anyone, but to forward information. Read it if you want to or not, but I'm going to post them without your permission. Take your request to Somalinet people and ask them to give you help. ehehehhehe
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 10:08 am Anonynous Forwarding information is a good thing. But why don't you be more benificial by commenting on it, making it more relevent to the topic at hand and keeping it short.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 10:43 am Anonymous, Almost always the information I forward to the threads is relevent to the topic at hand. I forward the information because I either agree with it or they comment on what is been discussed. I'm not going to envolve on debates back and forth with the kufars. Debating in religion is a no win situation in Da'wa; I'm not twisting anyone to read what I forward. If you think it is long, don't read it. It is as simple as that. Complaining by anyone will not make me stop posting. Somalinet has so many free place space. If Somalinet would not have space on their servers, It would not have get into the business of discussion forumss and Somalinet people would not buy you faster modem for you. If it is hard for you to open the page because there are many postings, get a faster modem or DSL.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 11:04 am These are small excerpts from Paper posted by anonynous. It answers the questions; Does Atheist's life worth living? Does it have a meaning? "Atheism has parented this offspring, and it is her legitimate child--with no mind to look back to for his origin, no law to turn to for guidance, no meaning to cling to for life, and no hope for the future. This is the shattered visage of atheism. It has the stare of death, looking into the barren desert of emptiness and hopelessness. Thus, the Nietzschean dogma, which dawned with the lantern being smashed to the ground, now ends in the darkness of the grave.[2] Is this true? Is there no hope in atheism? Is there no meaning in a world without God? William Lane Craig offers a resounding yes" Here is what William says: "if God doesn't exist, then man and the universe are doomed to die. There is no hope of immortality. Our lives are but an infinitesimally small point that appears and then vanishes forever" Hold on. Before you disagree with auther of the paper, see his reason "This is because within an atheistic world view there can be no meaning or purpose. I'm sure that many will be quick to disagree with me because they are an atheist or know an atheist who does ascribe meaning and purpose to their lives. But is this consistent within the atheistic world view? I don't think so. If everything is doomed to go out of existence, can there be any ultimate significance? If we are inevitably faced with nonexistence can our lives have any ultimate significance?" More bad new and despair for Atheists "Mankind is thus no more significant than a swarm of mosquitos or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is all the same. The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.[3] If one's destiny is the grave, what ultimate purpose is their for life? The same is true of the universe. If it is doomed to become a forever expanding pile of useless debris, what purpose is there for the universe? To what end is the world or man in existence? There can be no hope, no purpose. What is true of mankind is true of individuals as well. So there can be no purpose in any individual's life. My life wouldn't be qualitatively different than the life of a dog. This thought is expressed by the writer of Ecclesiastes, "The fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All come from the dust and all return to the dust" (Ecc 3:19-20). The universe and man are cosmic accidents. There is no reason for our existence. Man is a cosmic orphan. Without God the universe is the result of a cosmic accident, a chance explosion. There is no reason for which it exist. As for man, he is a freak of nature--a blind product of matter plus time plus chance. Man is just a lump of slime that evolved into rationality. There is no more purpose in life for the human race than for a species of insect; for both are the result of the blind interaction of chance and necessity.[4] If we are only cosmic accidents, how can there be any meaning in our lives? If this is true, which it is in an atheistic world view, our lives are for nothing. It would not matter in the slightest bit if I ever existed. This is why the atheist, if honest and consistent, must face death with despair. Their life is for nothing. Once they are gone, they are gone forever. Friedrich Nietzsche admitted that with the end of Christianity comes nihilism, which is the "denial of the existence of any basis for knowledge or truth; the general rejection of customary beliefs in morality, religion, etc.; the belief that there is no meaning or purpose in existence." In "The Will to Power", Nietzsche says this Influencing others or influencing history doesn't give your life ultimate significance. It only gives it relative significance. Your life is important relative to certain events, but there is no ultimate significance to those events if all will die. Ultimately, your life makes no difference. Even the universe is doomed to die (due to the Second Law of Thermodynamics). So what ultimate difference would it make if the universe never came to exist at all if it is doomed to become dead?" Mankind is thus no more significant than a swarm of mosquitos or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is all the same. The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.[3] If one's destiny is the grave, what ultimate purpose is their for life? The same is true of the universe. If it is doomed to become a forever expanding pile of useless debris, what purpose is there for the universe? To what end is the world or man in existence? There can be no hope, no purpose. My intention was not to give depression to some of the folks here who likes not to think about that stuff. I was just giving anonymous a hint of how he can get the people read his posts( I hope you guys read it. It's very interesting).
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 11:14 am Nour, You forgot something. I'm not twisting anyone to read what I forward. People say they do not read it, but I'm still posting. People also comment what I forword to here. So how can they deny reading while at the same time commenting what they read?! If people think the posting is long, they should not read it. It is as simple as that. I'm not going to alter the way I posting or forward messages to the threads to please people.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 11:37 am Anonymous, why don't you just provide the link to this information you are so eager to post, so that people can access the source.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 11:56 am Anonymous I doubt if youself read all what you post(if you do I give you 1.5 credit). As fg mentioned, your intention should be sincere. Some times some of your posts are good such as the one reposted above. But most of the time, it's pure interruption and people(not only kufars) found it annoying.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 12:36 pm Dear Anonymous, This sounds dumb, lol anonymous could be many different people, If you are one person as everybody here seems to suggest then please limit the length of your post. I agree with most of what you post (the bits I read) but they are far to long. This is not an order from me or the other brothers because we are not in the position to order each other around. It is only a request. The folders get too large to open for many Muslims and non Muslims alike. Brother if you intent to convey a message or point you can do so by abridging the article. If your sole purpose is to make it difficult for other to open the folders then please reconsider your stance. This is only a suggestion.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 01:18 pm All Hey, I am almost developing some respect for Anonymous here! While I agree with MM most of the time and share his irritation with Anonymous's graveyard postings, I am nevertheless fascinated to see the Beardo elite falling over themselves to attend to Uncle Whitey's complaints. I wonder whether they would have done the same if the offended party was an Arab or Indian or Chinese "Kaafir". I don't think so somehow! The love-hate relationship at work here, or is it the good old White-worshipping of the Negro in action?
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 03:25 pm Galool, doesn't let go any excuse to harrass people! Listen, so what if Mad Mac was the first to point out an annoying habit of annonymous. Get a grip man, leave the brothers alone, your attacks are getting more lame by the day!
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 06:53 pm BRO ANONYMOUS. I think I learned something very important from your message towards me. Yes, debating is useless. I learned that recently. I called Mad Mac all the names a muslim can call a disbeliever. I even thought he was a missionary. That is before I finally came to know that whatever form of disbelief he holds, it doesn't amount to more than misinformation and intentional refusal of what he knows to be correct. I can bet if I was a betting man he knows about islam more than some muslims do. A professed disbeliever Like him here who knows and admitts he is not a muslim isn't too dangerous. I hope you stick around to get to know MAD MAC enough to give him a little break sometimes and bound him on the head when he deserves so. He doesn't mind that too. That is why he picks a fight. You will figure. I have been there before and done that. PS: I love you for the sake of Allah and I think I can express my feelings the way I express them to my blood and flesh brother. You can fire back anytime I don't mind saxib. Compare Mad Mac to galool and PG.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 07:04 pm Galool. You can't play the race card here. It doesn't work. I don't personally view Mad mac More than a non-muslim who needs to learn about islam. He can be a jew if he wants to although he is An Irish. I am somali so what does that make me as a human being?. Part of gobal society. Race serves nothing. I think you are jealous about the way he respects people and doesn't insult their GOD like you do. And nothing wrong with being negro. Black man is black man. Depends how one feels about himself. If the judgement people make about your race gets to your nerves, it doesn't get to the rest of people. Beardofan. I apologize leaving this message under galool's. The guy is pain. You know, mad mac can be irritating and sometimes gets to your nerves. That is because he doesn't know as you do. I take pleasure in hitting him where it hurts most if he toys with the Quran but then when he is behaving, I guess we can let him argue around.
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 08:21 pm Hey people, I'm not twisting anyone to read what I forward. If you think it is long, don't read it. It is as simple as that. Complaining by anyone (the key word is ANYONE) will not make me stop posting. Somalinet has so many free space. If Somalinet would not have space on their servers, It would not have gotten into the business of discussion forumss . Ask Somalinet people buy you a faster modem for you. If it is hard for you to open the page because there are many postings, get a faster modem or DSL. HAHAHAHHA
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| | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 11:12 pm Galool Uncle Whitey??? A little condescending don't you think. I mean, how bout if I refer to you as little black Sambo???? What does my race have to do with my position on this issue? I think I have made a reasonable request which Anonymous chooses to ignore because I am kufaar. Therefore I appealed to my Muslim brothers to assist me in my cause, since it is a reasonable one. Why do you feel it neccessary to become base? Anonymous Face it dude, you are posting these long messages to annoy kufaar, not by their content but because it's making it hard to maintain a conversation. If content was your point you would post the link with a short description. Unfortunately your Msulims brothers and sisters have become collateral damage in your plot to get the man. I agree you are entitled to post what you want, but by copying and pasting endless articles, far more than anyone here has thetime or inclination to read, at the cost of time, you are simply doing it to be obstructionist. Note the little laughs you put at the end. It's as if you are trying to say "•••• you" to everyone here. And everyone is getting the message. So whatever dude. You want to be the stick in the mud, the fly in the ointment, go ahead. I'll work around you. BTW, can you at least get a fucking user name? Jesus Christ!!! Formerguest As Salam Alekum Saxib. You know what really sticks in my craw about Islam, it's so damn dogmatic. Basically it's all or nothing. There are some parts of the Qur'an I believe are morally wrong. Example: Stoning a women who commits adultery. My girlfriend committed adultery, yet she's one of the kindess souls on the planet. If we're going to stone her we should stone us all. I don't object to any of it's basic principals (although I embrace and / or respect some principals that it doesn't address: such as turn the other cheek), but I reject the absoluteness of it. That's why I reject it's divinity. I don't believe the written word can be divine. Maybe in the ballpark, but not perfect. Nothing of this earth is perfect, not a tree, not a leaf, certainly nothing by human hand, regardless of it's conveyance. Experience has taught me that. That is how I can regard Mohammed as a Prophet, but not the Qur'an as divine. Divinely inspired: Yes. Divine: no. Do you understand. I find myself at great sympathy with Islam. In fact, just last night, as my mother tried to talk me into embracing Christianity and becoming a Christian, I told her if I ever became an anything I would become a Muslim. My mother won't read the Qur'an because "she doesn't need it. She already has what she needs" (you wouldn't believe how many Muslims say the same thing to me in the inverse). Anyway, just so you understand my train of thought. I respect Islam, I just don't think it's the only path acceptable to Allah.
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 06:35 am Mad Mac Imagine, you are looking at one leaf on a tree. wondering how the heck this leaf got up there. Where water that made it moisture and green came from? But if look wider and see the whole tree then, you will get the answers to your question. To understand the individual laws in Islam, you need to look at the wider islamic "model" and architecture for addressing issues of humans and nature, such as social needs, family needs, spiritual needs, wealth needs, personal dignity needs,... and how all these aspects is organized, balanced, prioritized and unified to conform with nature. You need another thing. Since you are product of some culture, you have some kind of world view. That is how you judge good and bad, what is important and what is not. First, you to understand that, then take a look at other world views without assuming them wrong or wright. And compare things, that way you will discover new things, ideas understanding, then you re-evaluate yours. I would like to mention that, people mostly confuse the principles/laws and their applications. The Islamic principles can be taken as Universal, while the applications can be sircumstantial. This where the Islamic Fiqhi or Jurisdiction comes into play. for example, the Islamic general law is that, the punishment of a thief is to cut his/her hand. But when applying that law, the circumstances of the that particular thief and the amount he took will be looked at. To confict an adulter is very complicated in Islam. I would like to add it more. But for some reason I have to go.
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 08:01 am Mad Mac, I admit, I annoy you, but I have no room for you tantrum. Complaining by anyone (the key word is ANYONE) will not make me stop posting. http://www.msa-natl.org/SISTERS/articles/ More posting relevent to women will come: HHEHEHE
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 09:29 am MM You misunderstood me. I am the last person to be Racist and I thought you would know that by now, but obviously not. 90% of what I write is tongue-in-cheek, or is designed to provoke a reaction - makes the discussion more interesting! I think I am trying to translate Somali sense of humour into English, and it is apparent I am not succeeding. By the way I would not be offended if you call me Black or Blackie - Sambo is another matter! I am sorry if took offence to my use of your cry for help from the beardos as another little stick to prod FG and Co. To call my argument "base" is rather unwarranted. FG The Head beardo metomorphoses into a liberal color-blind internationalist who relishes the delights of living in the modern global village! If the color of people does not matter, why not go the whole UN Human Rights convention hog and say their Beliefs doesn't matter either! People are people. Simple isn't it when you think about it. C'mon, old boy you know you could do it! You keep on saying that insult your God. here is a challenge: Prove it! I never once insulted anyone's god or Faith, it is not my style. I saw you claim that me and PG " never say anything positive about Islam except when cornered" Firstly, the only time I was "cornered" was five or six months ago, and it was by Common in the days he had all his Beardo teeth intact,long before he was turned by the cooing of the girls into a cuddly, touch-feely marshmallow of his old self. On that occasion, I apologised and withdrew my comment. Secondly, why would anyone say anything positive about YOUR Faith anyway? You sound like a kid jumping up and down in the playground shouting "How come nobody praises my dad anymore!" Your assertion that I am jealous because MM "never insults other people's gods" just doesn't make sense. Now I know logical thinking is never a Beardo strong point, but could you explain this, slowly? How could I be jealous because someone else does not insult gods! That shift work is doing you no good ol' beard.
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 11:26 am Galool. I have the flu bug and don't feel well today. Right, I need shift change real bad because it is making me grow older faster than I imagined. There is no difference if common or someone else corners you. At least you have what it takes to admit it old man. You commented about Allah negatively too many times to copy and paste here(Too bad ANON isn't here with his good recollection of where things are written) That is what makes you stand out among the suspects readily. PG is exceptionally into the bussiness. I can't even repeat what she said about Allah. Now I am a nationalist eh?. Well, I said I am somali. When did that amount to nationalism?. I also don't understand why you non-muslim folks remind me this doomed global village?. I said too many times I am contributing to it and even paying heavily money to the most emperialist aggrevating institution in the world(Mad can fire back if he wants to). I work for my life and don't have to thank no one except the creator who provided me with the witts, intellect and ability to earn money and live a decent life. I am pain and a thorn into these societies if you want the truth. Because at the end of the day, I am different, my values are different, my views are different so what?. Can one live a life of his own choosing without you guys not telling him to see things the way you do??. MAD MAC has a sense of respect. It is obvious in what he writes. You on the other hand are nothing but pain who reminds people what it means to be non-muslim somali. You have a sense of humour sometimes. I guess that is your profession. I wouldn't be surprised if you tell me you get paid as stand up comedian somewhere in the brittish islands. You can choose to be respectful with your disagreements or be yourself always jumping to every opportunity to harrass people about their beliefs. MAD MAC. Later tonight inshallah when I am relaxed little. Have you seen this lady WGN?. I think I angered her too bad. Why don't you visit some thread over there and mediate between us?.
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 11:33 am Nour good points all. Certainly everyone is tainted by the influences of their education on right or wrong. In that sense I have some strong American values, although they have been very much reinforced by my study of history and my own life experiences. I have had the good fortune of living 13 of the last 16 plus years overseas (almost never on an American base) and so I have learned to appreciate and adopt other cultural viewpoints. But one conclusion I have reached in all of my observations is that the most important right, the thing that must be preserved ABOVE ALL ELSE, is that the individual has the right to be left alone. Hence the concept that my right to throw my fist ends where your face begins usually applies. Unfettered freedom of speech (including blasphemous speech), unfettered freedom of association, and so forth. If you allow society to start dictating the particularlars of private life it will. The more you allow it the more it will. I can see how Islam, taken as a whole, with the whole of society subscribing to it, can lead to a fruitful exitence. But what of those who don't want to lead a conservative, family oriented life? What about those who like night-life and dancing? What I reject is Islams absolutist approach and its blatant didain for other ways of life, other cultures, other viewpoints of right or wrong. In short, Islam does what ou just told me I have to free myself of, forms a viewpoint of right or wrong, holds up this model and proudly proclaims all other models are ••••. That's the part of Islam I am a rejectionist on. In order to reject that aspect of Islam, it means that I have to conclude that the Qur'an can not be divine, for if it were divine, then I would have to be an absolutist myself. That is PARTLY how I have come to my conclusions. Galool Got it. I missed the sarcasm and I was surprised. I'm with you now. Hey this is a general question. If Muslims are suppose to wear beards, then how come NONE of the Muslims I know have one??? IS this like some sort of optional interpretation?
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 12:44 pm MM what you mean by absolutist?. The people who beleif in Islam, believe that islam is the only model. Is that an absolutism? if yes, then everybody who subscribes to any system is absolutist. By mere belonging to any sytems excludes all other systems. of course Islam allows other faiths and system to co-exist as long as they do the same. But we don't believe they are right. You see, what you do, what you say and what you beleive has to go togather, otherwise, it's hypocracy. I don't buy if you say, I'm Capitalist but I beleive Communism is right. If you want to be "not-absolutist"  Depending how you define it), then don't believe in any system. And this impossible. if you mean "tolerance" We can talk about it and we will see which is most tolerable system. We are not on much disagrement in terms of personal freedom. We both agree that, there should not be limitless personal freedom. This means, you have draw the line some where.
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 08:16 pm To MAD MAC Saxib, I have been reading your posts for 5,6 months, it's really interesting. Although I don't agree most of your arguments with you ,but never get tired to read it. I had a good feeling that you will be my true brother of Islam one day Insha'allah. Let me distinguish A Daiwa from Jihad. it is time to delivery the message of Allah to the mankind with wisdom and patient; that is our obligation today, of course the jihad still valid don't misunderstand with me. Islamicly,you are invited to come and see the XAQ (true). May Allah guide you...Amin......
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| | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 09:53 pm Nur OK Abowe, let's take your example of I'm a capitalist and I'm a communist, for that's a good one to illustrate my point. How many pure capitilaists do you know out there? I mean people who say there should be no taxes of any sort, no central government sponsorship of anything, just let the free market govern?? No one, or almost no one, would say that. Hence the US Welfare system is a form of communism. The US minimum wage is a form of communism. Public shooling is a form of communism. It is a forced redistribution of wealth for the benefit of the entire society. But we don't forcibly redistribute all wealth. That would be true communism. Why don't we do that? Because centralized governments can not do it efficiently AND because it kills incentive. Systems that redistribute too much wealth are doomed to fail. Well for me this is the same thing. I don't subscribe to any system. I take the parts I believe are consistent and correct and I apply them to my life. I believe in Allah because: a. I have personally witnessed what I believe was a miracle. b. I believe Allah talks to us if we listen - if we pay attention to the messages. c. Nothing comes from nothing. Someone or something had to get the ball rolling. However, because I don't believe in perfection here on Earth, I believe that EVERYONE, even the best, the champs, like Mohammed, who interpret Gods word, make mistakes. Hence the differing angles on similar messages. So where does that leave us? Basically it boils down to this (as far as I'm concerned, be advised I am not prostelytizing here, trying to convert everyone to my way of thinking. I believe Islam is ONE OF A NUMBER of acceptable paths), be nice to each other. Try and do the right thing. That's the best I can do. Why are we here? Hell if I know. I have some suspicions, like this is a place to gain experiences and test things out, but I'm not sure of that. I don't believe it's a test of faith - which is a central tenet of Islam and the other monotherists beliefs. It is one tenet of monotheism I reject. Am I making sense here? Abu Is Xaq "the truth"? I'm not familar with the word saxib.
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 03:04 am Mad Mac, interesting topic, you never miss an opportunity to attack Islam, eh. Or is this referred to as child like curiosity, lol A more important question is why did she commit adultery? Hhmmm….not man enough are you, lol. I can’t believe I’m joking about this matter. On a more serious note…I think brother Nour answered your concerns well. You have to look at the whole picture of society verses individual rights. In the west sometimes individual rights proceeds general welfare and the west is paying for it big time. I have a few quickies to add (no pun intended towards you, lol) 1) To my knowledge stoning to death is not found in the Quran (however I agree with it 100%) I’m just finding factual errors in your post. Also it is not wise to attribute something falsely to the Quran 2) Islam is not the only religion that condones stoning to death for adultery….there are much more barbaric punishments in other faiths for even innocent people such as satti (this does not mean I’m saying stoning is barbaric) 3) Perhaps most importantly, this form of punishment is more of a deterrent then for the soul purpose of inflicting pain. It is not often we hear this punishment actually being implemented in real life. When we do hear it, it’s all over CNN, like for some reason starving a nation to death due to sanctions is less important. I don’t know how often two people actually commit adultery in ‘times square’ (or in public)….to my knowledge anybody that does indulge or partake in this sin does it behind close doors. Furthermore to have four witness (or was it three witness) witness while this act was being carried out in the privacy of a person’s home is near to impossible. Also you will find it hard to believe Islam protects the privacy of a person’s home and this is to be found in the Quran. Talk about fundamental rights! If anyone so much as peeps or spy on you while you are in the confines of your home …regardless of what vice you are up to while you are home. You can rest assured that the tress passer will receive a sentence and his witness will be rejected. 4) Further more the witnesses all have to actually see…..and I’m to shy to type in my own words so let me Quote the scholars, ““circumcised parts” [i.e. genitals] come together and there is penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration (which carries the prescribed hadd or punishment). This is very hard to witness if a person is in the confines of there home! Kissing and foreplay do not carry this punishment. 5) I am sorry to disappoint you, the one usually convicted of this act more than likely voluntarily confesses due to guilt and wants the punishment carried out, or conversely is a wicked person who has challenge societies norms and done it in Public to make a point against Islam (the other option is they are plain stupid). Today you could stay in your house and drink to your hearts content nobody sees you (except Allah). We believe in a final accountability to Allah. There is one final issue that may infringe on a persons right to privacy (or futile disobedience of Allah) which is blood tests and DNA test incase the married woman was to conceive. There is an incident that occurred at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) where a woman was suspected of cheating on her husband because of the complexion of the child, he was black or almost black, while both the married couple were white or (non black). However this was considered inconclusive proof because it is possible for the couple to have a very dark baby. You may view Islam as absolutist or blood thirty but in history we have seen The Prophet of Allah was reluctant to here confessions of Adultery. Keep in mind Fornication is a whole different ball game with regards to the severity of punishment. Allah tells us in the Quran "Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed (sinned) against their souls! Despair not of the mercy of Allaah, for Allaah forgives all sins; for He is oft-forgiving, most merciful." This is how we view our Lord as merciful and not blood thirst. The people involved in this sin should repent to their creator and he is oft forgiving and most merciful. My point in saying all of this is to say Allah holds a person accountable for the sins they do in private and He will deal with them accordingly on the Day of Judgment. The Government will punish any one who publicly defies Allah’s Sharia and this is how I view a person convicted of adultery due to the difficulty of getting caught…one has to want to get got caught. Such a person is not a victim rather out to corrupt societies values. Islam is more then loop holes at the same time there are balances and checks in our system. How shall I end this……If a person wants to go to hell there is ample opportunity to do so without dragging the moral standards of a community in the gutter. The harms of adultery on a couple, child, village, nation are to numerous to list here.
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 05:41 am MM I understand your point, Yes some people( like you described USA has communism elements in their system. I'm not the one to argue with you in that respect) construct their system, way of life, faith from or what ever you called it, from already existing ones. It can be organizational, personal or both(such as the Islam). I liked your reasons for your belief(a,b,c). Yes Allah talks to us in many ways. But where are the listeners? We use perfection, always in a relative term. If I get 100% in my math or programming exam. my teacher will tell me that I was perfect. But I understand that it refers just to this particular exam. Next one would not be the same. We belive absolute perfection only belongs to Allah(it's one of his Attributes). But with respect to us the word becomes relative( those who know about the Aqidah very well, please correct me). We believe the Prophets of Allah are Macsumin=They are guarded/protected and they are held in a very high standard above the rest of us. We believe they just working example of a GOOD person. Another words, they are pure practical lessons in life's many aspects. when I get a minute, I will drop a line for your reply. If I don't, it's just that, I could not get that minute. I'm sure other people will drop their ideas, too.
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 05:45 am JB Assalamu Alaikum You last paragraph was very well said!!
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 09:40 am JB She didn't cheat on me dude. My ex-wife cheated on me while I was busy feeding starving people in Somalia and killing SNA scum (sorry I couldn't resist that). My girlfriend and I have a wonderful relationship. I only used the adultery thing as an example. And I know the penalty gets carried out because it happened when I was in Somalia and Saudi Arabia - don't ask me what kind of trial provided said truth. But while I'm perfectly willing to concede that it might be an exception, I was merely using it as an example. As for your last paragraph, you and I find ourselves violently in agreement. Nour As always it is a pleasure to engage in dialogue. If you have more to add I am all ears.
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 09:46 am MM Thank Allah for that! I was getting a tad worried about your sense of humour old boy. Now on your comments on the Anonymous-contaminated folder about Invasion. The Chinese invasion of USA was hypothetical. The general point was that sovereign states should not be forcibly invaded simply because their political leadership was unpopular or even brutal. Your mechanical detailing of the Chinese military capabilities was therefore irrelevant. The comments you made about "uncle Joe" were, however, more disturbing, for I firmly believe the USSR's resistance of Nazi assault was the greatest and most heroic military and civilian endeavour ever undertaken by a nation-state. Lets' avail ourselves of some statistical facts. The WW2 death toll is estimated at 50 million, 20 million of which were USSR citizens. The German Armed military personnel killed was around 5 Million. Well over 3 million of those died on the Eastern front. The rest of their deaths were "shared" by the Brits,Americans, French, Dutch and almost every other world nation you can think of. So strictly speaking, Nazism was DEFEATED by Uncle Joe. By the time of the Anglo-American opening of the Western front in Europe in 1994, the War was already won and lost . On D-Day, there were 11,000 airplanes flying over the battlefields of France. Only 300 or so were German. Over 30% of all "German" forces in France on that day were actually Kazakh, Uzbek, Lithuanian and other so-called turn-coats, rather than real Wehermacht, and of those real Germans fighting there, many were either too old or too seriously wounded to fight on Eastern front. It may not matter to you who won in WW2, but it matters to me, for I believe I live in a better world than I would have if Hitler prevailed. And That is why I have a lot more respect for Uncle Joe than you do. As for Haiti, my knowledge of their internal politics is limited, but I suspect JB Aristede is a lot less nastier than the Duvalier dynasty. Vietnam was not an inavasion in the true of the sense of the word. USA was invited by a sovereign state to intervene on its behalf. Neither does the Humanitarian effort Uncle Sam took upon himself in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo qualify as an invasion, since there was no real American interest in these places. I think this is a good or at least a benign development in the use of Military power in World history, but I am sure others will disagree with me, and will see it as just another projection of strength by the dominant empire of the day. I will talk to you later about the "importance" of facial hair in religious symbolism. FG Get well soon! (not because I like you very much but because I can't argue with a coughing, sneezing wreck!)
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 09:52 am MM That should read 1944 of course! I blame that Famous Grouse!
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 11:23 am Galool. I can't argue lately. Not my game anymore. I think I can learn from the others instead. As for your cowardice wish(I say cowardice because you are afraid to be accused of being nice to fg), I have no clue what is the appropriate responce. Let it stand as it is. I am surprised pharoah is gonna preach about the importance of symbolism i.e. "beard" in islam. Becareful to twist too much of it and make sure your books and sources match ours or else you know the end game here. Mad Mac. I think brother Nour and JB are perfect for you. That is why I like them. Tonight when I get to work inshallah, I will open a thread where you will see the inpterpretations of the Quran and how it is done. Not every intrepreter has the licence to interpret or say what he/she likes about the Quran. There is procedure where everybody needs to follow to convey the understanding of the prophet and his companions and those who took their methodology. I am sure the tafsir of the Quran you have says something about it in the preface. Take care.
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| | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 09:36 pm Mad. Here is the link: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/Ulum/Denffor6.html#Principles Here is a little of what it says: Basic Conditions of tafsir(interpretation of the Quran). Muslim scholars have laid down certain basic conditions for sound tafsîr. Any tafsîr, which disregards these principles must be viewed with great caution, if not rejected altogether. The most important among these conditions are the following: The mufassir must: Be sound in belief ('aqîda). Well-grounded in the knowledge of Arabic and its rules as a language. Well-grounded in other sciences that are connected with the study of the Qur'ân (e.g. 'ilm al-riwâya). Have the ability for precise comprehension. Abstain from the use of mere opinion. Begin the tafsîr of the Qur'ân with the Qur'ân. Seek guidance from the words and explanations of the Prophet. Refer to the reports from the sahâba. Consider the reports from the tâbicûn. Consult the opinions of other eminent scholars. Grades Of Sources The best tafsîr is the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Qur'ân. The next best is the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Prophet Muhammad, who, as Shâfi'î explained, acted according to what he understood from the Qur'ân. If nothing can be found in the Qur'ân nor in the sunna of the Prophet, one turns to the reports from the sahâba. If nothing can be found in the Qur'ân, the sunna and the reports from the sahâba, one turns to the reports from the tâbicûn. However, nothing can match the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Qur'ân and the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Prophet. Kinds Of Tafsîr Tafsîr may be divided into three basic groups: Tafsîr bi-l-riwâya (by transmission), also known as tafsîr bi-l-ma'thûr. Tafsîr bi'l-ra'y (by sound opinion; also known as tafsîr bi-l-dirâya, by knowledge). Tafsîr bi-l-ishâra (by indication, from signs). Tafsîr bi-l-riwâya By this is meant all explanations of the Qur'ân which can be traced back through a chain of transmission to a sound source, i.e.: The Qur'ân itself. The explanation of the Prophet. The explanation by Companions of the Prophet (to some extent). Naturally, the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Qur'ân and the explanation of the Qur'ân by the Prophet are the two highest sources for tafsîr, which cannot be matched nor superseded by any other source. Next to these rank the explanations by the sahâba, since the sahâba were witnesses to the revelations, were educated and trained by the Prophet himself and were closest to the period of the first Muslim umma. Of course all reports of explanations by the Prophet or by a sahâbi must be sound according to the science of riwâya as in culum al-hadîth. PS: Mad says all the time that there are different interpretations of the Quran to justify what everybody says be it right or wrong. In that case, he can view the rules of interpretation and the conditions set for it. Sorry for the diversion.
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 05:59 am Brother FG, can you elaborate who are the 'Tabicun' are they totaly different from the sahaba and how? Can you mention one or two of the Tabicun. Thanks in advane for this information and the link too
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 06:06 am fg Jazak Allah for the post We know our Somali Culma(Sh. Mohamed Macallin, Shariif Abdi Nuur, Sh. Mohamed Amin, Sh. Ibrahin Suuleey ,... Allah ha u naxariisto kuwa dhintay) used to translate the qur'an in oral Somali for Somalis. And it was very good and comprehensive.And they certainly have, good qualification in this area. But when I saw the written translations of the Qur'an , say, into English, and I compare the two verses(one in Arabic and one in English), I thought are these really the same verses. I don't know other languages. I heard Urdu makes good translation from Arabic. But in English, I found that the English words did not realy capture the overal meaning, of the Arabic Jumlah(sentence). The authors are trying to translate( sometimes approxmate) the Arabic words with English words and as a result, the languistic style and spirit of the Qur'anic verses is lost. Yes they did a good job but lot of things are lost in between.
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 07:14 am Well, don't get me wrong. The Russians definately took the brunt of the NAZI offensive and they definately paid the largest price. If the fight were strictly between Russia and Germany (remember Germany was engaged in North Africa and had some 60 divisions tied down in France, Italy and the Balkans (not to mention Norway, and the allied bombing campaign which had a huge impact on the German rail system and oil stocks - plus Russia received a tremendous amount of lend lease aid) I'm not sure Russia would have carried the day, it would have been nip and tuck. But I do agree that the Russian resistance was both the critical contribution and heroic. HOWEVER, Uncle joe only gets marginal credit. Sure his leadership after the fall of 41 was significant, but it does nothing to erase his before or after deeds. He was scum. Basically we had two scum bag regimes (Hitlers and Stalins) killing each other off in dramatic proportions. BTW I have worked with Russian soldiers before and I personally like them. I think they're allright. Aristide is not as nasty as Papa Doc OR the Cedras, Biamby, Francois triumverant, but he's a nutcase, he advocates necklacing of political opponents and he's just out there - by way of Pulto dude. We certainly didn't have a dog in that fight. I agree with you other stuff on the different interventions, but Kosovo was a mis-calculation and the Albanians are scum who largely started the trouble in the first place. They don't get my sympathy vote. Formerguest I'll open your thread soonest. My women has just finished dinner and if I don't get off the computer I'll be in deep $%&*§. Know what I mean???
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 12:20 pm MM I am sorry to say that in many ways you are not THAT different from the Beardos. My own Galoolian measure of human intellect is the ability of the individual to circumvent and defeat the propaganda of his or her upbringing. This does not mean dumping everything your cultural background encumbers you with, but rather gaining from within oneself the ability to stand OUTSIDE the necklace of one's cultural inheritance, and therefore attain the intellectual wherewithal to objectively assess and evaluate its Mores, achievements (or the lack thereof) and outlook to the rest of the world scene, free of the contaminating restraints of one's national paraphernalia. Your view of USSR is myopic, and I'm afraid lacks that something which says " I am intellectually independent". You regurgitate that old all-American propaganda immortalised in endless hollywood movies which asserts that America won the WW2 (and every other war for that matter) almost single-handedly and against all odds. The reality is far more complicated than that. Germany did not have any divisions tied-up anywhere in 1944. The difference made by the Allied support to USSR was negligable, and certainly did NOT make any strategic alteration to the course of the War. Airplanes win wars only in films, not in real life(kosovo was not really a war). If anything, they strengthen the resolve of the civilians under enemy bombardment, and increase the support of the populace for its leadership. Uncle Joe was no more of a scumbag than the "founding Fathers" Americans are so proud of. Afterall, they invaded a new land, killed everything on sight and occuppied it - and their aim was malevolent, unlike Stalin who thought he was doing everything he did for what he(mistakenly) thought was for the good of Mankind. When would I hear a Human Being, not an American! FG Cowardice is the stuff your last message was made of. I did not even say anything about facial hair, and I'm already been warned, threatened and insulted. And I did not even mention Islam! Let me just say this: Allah has no particular interest in the way a man wears his beard. Surely you don't expect heavenly guards to let you in simply because you failed to shave for few days do you? The fact that all religious nuts wear beards is because they think their Prophets wore facial hair in order to please their cosmic masters. The reality, I am afraid, is far more mundane than that. Prophets had no access to the wonders of Remington Rovers(is there such a machine? If not one should be invented!), Gillete Supershaves and Phillips Electric Contour-Plus! If someone wanted to shave 15 centuries ago, he would have to risk bleeding to death or suffer the ravages of slow Septiceamia using blunt, rusty swords often used on the local clans' warriors during yesterday's local village get-together! No wonder that Islamic Fundas, Hindu Brahmins, Sikh Warriors and Ortho priests all sport long beards - all in the misguided believe that THEIR prophet must have had a secret and holy reason to grow a stubble!
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 01:16 pm Mad Mac/Galool; One of the most important actions during WW2 actually took place in Norway. Go and read this link; http://www.rjukan-turistkontor.no/uk/main.asp If it wasn't for a handful brave men here in Norway the world might have been quite different from what it is today.... You can argue as much as you want about who is the big hero here, USA vs USSR, I would say both of you should give the Norwegians some credit too, Thank You! 
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 04:35 pm Bro Nour and Curious, sorry I am late here. I think the link is very useful. It also has Quran transcripts dating back to the first century of islam. It is designed to answer and respond to all the critisizm aimed at the Quran. I learned a whole lot of stuff from it. I think you can learn few things from it too. If you need my opinion, it is +++A GRADE WEBSITE for Authenticity. See it for yourself. Curious, I will be back sometime later tonigh inshallah to answer and say what I know. I prefer to give other people's answers since it is more educated. I will find you some inshallah. Bro, Nour, I will be back too inshallah. Macasalaama.
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| | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 08:21 pm Bro curious. Tabici means a follower in language, and according to sharia, it is someone who followed in faith the prophet of islam(and his companions) and haven't met him. Tabici is different than Sahabi( a companion) because: "Companions are all those who met the Prophet (s.a.w.) and died as Muslims. Scholars have said that they were 114,000 in number [as stated by Abu Zur'ah, the teacher of Imam Muslim, and recorded by as-Suyootee]. They are praised in many Qur'anic verses: "You are the best of peoples ever raised for mankind, you enjoin good and forbid evil, and you believe in Allah." [3:110] "And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajiroon (the Emigrants from Makkah) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al-Madeenah who helped the Muhajiroon) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success." [9:100] "Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their pledge to you (O Muhammad) under the tree. He knew what was in their hearts and He sent down calmness and tranquility upon them..." [48:18]" In one of the verses Above(9:100) taabiciyiin are mentioned as "those who followed them(the prophet and the companions) exactly (in faith) basically the rest of the muslims untill the day of the judgement. I hope others can add to it. To read the status of the companions of the prophet pbuh according to muslims visit this link: http://www.islaam.com/viewsof.htm Earlier tabicin and the most famous ones are the ones who contributed to the knowledge of islam such as tafsir and ahadith. Among them are: Zaid ibnu aslam, Mujahid, Cadhaa, Abul aliya and many more I don't know their names. Some of the later ones ones are Ibnu kathiir, dhabari, qurdhubi and others who are know tabicin for their tafsiir. If we don't look further away we can also name Shafici, Ahmad ibnu xanbal, Imamu Malik, abaa xaniifah THOSE ARE THE LEADERS OF THE SCHOOLS OF JURISPRUDENCE or fiqhi. Not to mention the most respected of imams of ahadith such as BUKHARI AND MUSLIM may Allah be pleased with them. I hope that helped a little. If I made a mistake others should correct me because this ain't my field. I don't wan't to convey here that I am too deep into the knowledge. Bro Nour. I agree with you, no matter how perfectly the Quran is translated, one doesn't get the feelings he gets when he reads and understands it in arabic. As Allah almighty said in the Quran: "39.28 (It is) a Qurán in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil". "13.37 Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic". "41.3 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qurán in Arabic, for people who understand;-" " 12.2 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qurán, in order that ye may learn wisdom"
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 04:22 am Galool Did you read my write up on WW II? I didn't once, not once, mention America. Now, as for Americas contribution, it was immense, esspecially in material resources. Russias was immense in human resources (they made fine tanks for the era as well, but their tank building abilities have since fallen behind somewhat). I can not believe that you say Germany did not have any divisions tied up in France and Italy and the Balkans and Norway during 1944? Which 1944 are you talking about and what planet? There were over 60 divisions manning coastal defenses, fighting the allies in Italy, fighting the partisans in the Balkans and fighting the allied invsion after June 1944 (previously they were occupying France to insure no major allied raids like Dieppe toook place). The bombing campaign made a BIG difference all the way around for a number of reasons. First and foremost was fuel. The loss of most of the production of the Ploesti fields wa devastating. Secondly, as the war went on the Germans had more and more trouble using their rail infrastructure. Thirdly, the Luftwaffe was destroyed mostly in the air fighting the US and to a lessar degree the British Air Force, The Red Air Force was never much of a threat (decent tactical support but that's it) because they never produced a heavy bomber that was worth a crap. Aircraft by themselves don't win wars (and yes Kosovo was a "real war", what else can you call bombing a sovereign state other than an act of war - don't be stupid) but they make a big difference. They did in WW II, they did in Desert Storm and they will in the future. Don't fall for that revisionist crap that the air campaign in WW II did not mean anything because German wartime production increased in 1944. That is true, but it would have increased significantly more, and the Wehrmacht without fuel restrcitions would have been much more effective - not to mention the fact that it could have manuevered during the day without being bombed, a constanct threat that our forces didn't have to deal with. During the war the Germans had a joke, if a plane was Blue it was American, Brown it was British, if it was invisible it ours. Spend some time talking to German vets or read "The German Generals Talk" or Guderians or Albert Speers memoirs if you want to get a feel for the impact of the bombing campaign during the war (they're available in both German and English). Comparing Stalin to the Founding Fathers is like comparing Hitler to Churchil. First of all, the Founding Fathers were not concerned with expanding the State - that comes latter. Secondly, certainly the declaration of independence and the Contitution were remarkably far sighted documents by the standards of the era. I mean remember the status that blacks had globally outside of Africa in 1780. Also remember what was politically feasible at that time. The founding fathers had to be realistic. Thirdly, in case you are unaware, if you look at what happened to the men who originally signed the declaration of independence, most of them died in poverty or were killed by the British (one of those little known facts). Almost none benefited personally from it. You are doing exactly what you decry only from the opposite perspective. You are sitting back and saying conducting revisionism for revisionisms sake. Stalin was a brutal, vicious man. His Chief of Security was a well known child molester (Beria - that boy wasn't right) and he personally ordered the death of men like Trotsky (the list is long and laborious). He orderd the killing of the Kulaks (about 5 million people), wiped out his general staff before WW II (turns out that wasn't a real smart move), killed a boatload of Poles at Katyn, and lots of other stuff. He was evil - pure and simple. You would be as hard pressed to find any credible historian who labeled Stalin as benign as you would Hitler (nuts one and all). Just because I'm not a revisionist doesn't mean I'm not an intellectual. And when it comes to WW II you will never match me, so don't even try. I came name all the major battles, the names of Tank types, aircraft types, weapons types, weapons developments, etc. etc. etc. Who fought who when and why - I could go on but you get the point. I also speak German at the native level which allows me to frequently discuss the war with German vets (who come to our military socials). You're out of your league on this one Saxib. Turst me when it comes to warfare in general and WW II in particular, you couldn't carry my rucksack. Test question: Largest Tank Battle in History and name of new Tank Models that appeared at that battle (new being defined as fielded within the year)?
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 12:17 pm Galool. Have you no shame?. I think I gave you the excuse to indulge in your passionate attire the subject you delight most. i.e Insulting. But they say "when the lions are dead, the snares insult". Read between the lines. You wouldn't be in a festive mood like you are here if somebody I know was here(and don't be too insulting since he isn't here). When will you give up your harsh cries of the crow?. I have yet to see one time in your entries to say something positive without being co-erced to do so(I sometimes harrass you to say it). That is the only time you backtrack a little and even say more confusing stuff. You are srrange old man. I wonder what made you this hardened??. Listen, don't be too insulting. I think it is classless and uncivilized. Voice your opposition in a logical thinking although I know you lack the skills. At least try. You have strange fever that has no remedy. May Allah guide you. I definitely would like to know your background and where all this craze of yours started. MAD MAC. You have proven your career well beyond Galool's empty rhetorics. Don't let him get to you.
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 12:54 pm MM I don't know which tank was the heaviest, but I know which made the greatest difference and it wasn't American or German. Neither was it heavy, in fact it was very light - and it was Soviet. My knowledge of WW2 is, shall I say, without resorting to hubris, sufficient. My statement the Germany did not have armies tied up anywhere was a response to your assetrtion that German armies were somehow fighting in North Africa, rather than the Eastern Front. The reality is that German war effort was directed primarily at USSR, and not against W. Europe or America. It maybe wise to consult with your German friends again, and tell them to be frank with you this time! They know that the War was won and lost on the steppes of Mother Russia not on Omaha beach in 1944 when Uncle Sam and this side of the Anglo-Saxon clan launched its pointless and VERY late overkill, and by all measurable standards made a big mess of it! That is, I'm afraid the sad reality. Earlier, I provided the statistics. It should have been a walk-over and it wasn't. Sure Kosovo was a War! A war in which not a single soldier from one side of the conflict was so much as shot at let alone get killed, and only three (yes, three) tanks were ever proved to have been destroyed by a vast and expensive array of missiles and airplanes. It was a show that Broadway would have been proud of! By calling Beria a Paedophile, you are proving my point about US propaganda. History is obviously written by hollywood-watching american ex-servicemen who believe every word their hubris-filled Rambo Seargent-major told them about the world.
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 01:09 pm FG Oh thank god for that! I thought you arranged a typical Funda head-lopping knees-up for ANON! It is not very nice of you to harrass an old man to compromise his principles, in order to keep his grey head resting on top of his shoulders! You do talk a lot about this "Insult" business, but as everybody saw it, you singularly failed to prove it when challenged. I would be seriously concerned if I were MM. Once the turbaned snakes start smiling at you, you certainly are doing something wrong. Hence my putting some unaccustomed pressure on him. It is for his own good really!
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 02:01 pm Galool. And why would you think I did something to ANON?. No wonder You even accused me before, that I don't want to share some imaginative, hoax adulation with people. Proudness isn't in my list. I am down to earth guy in case you were fooled by my arguments with people. I wouldn't wanna hurt anybody's feelings. I see now why you act this tough funda. I could tell though, you were putting up some showmanship here pretending that you are strong in your twisted baseless ideology. What is up with the revelation of your weakness and that I forced you lol?. Unreal Old Man. Has to do with some seclusion you did may be overnight. Grey hair and reservations are tied together so I guess once you admitted your greyness in hair, you will be able to keep inline with it. In no way I want you change your principle if it suits you fine. Sorry to have made you do what you do in defence of your principles(beleiving you aren't bluffing). You should have told me this long time ago. I wouldn't harrass desperate old man. I gotta start work. LATER.
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 05:01 pm Thank you bro FG for the explaination and the link. May Allah reward you for your generosity.
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| | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 05:40 pm Curious. The same for you bro(?). I went to the website and and copy/pasted what I saw related to the concerns you had. It is not my explanation in blue print.
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 01:54 am Madmac, FG ... your wisdom is needed @lol. I am sure you got it now. salaams to all the good guys out there but not to others esp Noor Arawello
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 02:00 am FG My weaknesses are multiple and profound. I have a weakness for nubile young women(it is mainly watching them nowadays),weakness for good wine, weakness for disgustingly fatty Somali and Rice. I am hopeless in front of beautiful things. The sight of snow-capped mountains, green valleys and majestic waterfalls never fail to bring a tear to my eye. But I am as strong as a rock against bigotry of any kind, and have no respect for people who try to control other people's thoughts and behaviour using religion as a tool. I despise anyone who tries to divide the human race and cause unnecessary rifts and animosities based on the childish assumption of "My religion is better than yours, my God says so in that little book over there. I am therefore heaven-bound, while you will rot in eternal hell." Playground stuff isn't it "And not only that but I have a carte blanche from God(check the little book again!)to oppress people, mutilate them, cover them up and impose my will on them so that presumably I can go to heaven!" What a selfish, childish and preposterous set of thought process, wouldn't you say fg? By the way, your growing sense of humour is noted and welcomed! Much better than that straight-laced, dour, humourless funda nutcase I encountered when I first visited this forums. Or is it because since you can't actually refute my points anymore (The beard thing, Jihad etc) you have no alternative but to switch tactic? Either way this is much more preferable to that apparatchik automoton who spoke like a Quran-obsessed robot (do you knows I could almost hear metallic voice whenever I read your posts in those days? honest!) Keep it up Ol' beard!
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 02:04 am Arawelo. Sis, where have you been?. I hope all is well. I wonder what you meant by "I am sure you got it now?". Have you seen the thread people opened just for you?. You might need to check it out. The good guys lol. and not others. which list am I in I wonder?.
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 02:07 am Galool. I need to go home and take a nap and say something about your poetic pretension here later sometime. I am about to leave work inshallah for the day.
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 03:54 am Should read Fatty Somali boiled lamb and rice! That Famous Grouse is still working! Good studd wasn't it?
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:48 am FG...Please don,t waste your TIME whit this DIRTY JEWS call...GALOOL Can you not honestly tell that MAD-mac=Galool?....He talks how MAD used 2 talk about Islam b4....so when he want us 2 see him as openmind guy, he is MAD_mac...when he can,t handle the Truth about Islam he got jelous N confusion then he became a Galool, so he can INsult Islam.lol.....he STIL have the Hate of Islam in his Heart...I really feel sorry 4 u br FG cuz u r so HONEST guy....Can u not see the Hatered GAlool Have 4 Islam? can u not feel he is Acting as he can Stop Islam 2day? what a week Old dirty Man....Don,t he know ALL the Emperial Kufars have same Feeling about Islam 4 over 1400 years now? did he really think his cheap Jokes and ignorence words can Harm Islam? FG..I can TEL Mad_mac is Galool....or if is not, Galool another JEWS sick CHild molested....who hates how Islam feels about his UGLY actions.. GALOOL. YOU will burn in HELL!!!!! do u heard me u will BURN in HELL!!! what can u do about that? no amount of INsult will safe U from a HELL fire...lol......I can see u burning 2 death...and I am laughing at u from Heaven...lol....U r nothing BUT dirty OLD MAn...Ilaahay ku NAC!
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:53 am Fg, salaams bro. There is no need to apologise to me bro. I like you and always will as my bother in faith as well as my Somali cousin. You are on my top list when I say the good ones. Madmac, sorry my cousin I did not reply I was in fact in Germany for two days. In Bonn the to the Netherlands. Arawello
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 05:09 am Galool Your are strong against "bigotry" but not against yours!!. What good manner you have when talking about other people's beleives!!; "childish assumption", "selfish, childish and preposterous"..., Oh, very good idealist who wants to UNITE the humanity. How? Under what?. I was going to ask for reason and logic, then i realised it was Galool. At least,he knows (like any atheists) how to disguise the most useless point under some fancy vocabularies. Galool uniting humanity?. just to be polite don't called it "Childish Assumption". Is the Old man with grey hair(who might have grand doughters) honest with us in telling us that he is against Islam because of this idea of uniting the humanity?. let us see what he said in another thread. "watching dusky Somali beauties shyly bathing on the beach, sensously trying to cover their assets with flimsy Diri's and failing all the time, while my feet was being lapped by the gentle waves of the Indian Ocean. Ah bliss! My idea of Heaven! And you little beards wish to take all that away from me" What a shame on old Somali man who might have grand doughters!!. And he has the gut to call other people "selfish". Imagine it's this kind of people who are claiming that they like humanity. I feel sorry for the poor humanity.
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 05:11 am Thesmartone@lol, Sister pray for the two guys. allah only guides the people. Galool, I am not back at at all. But here is a thought on your above inputs; inadvertanly you discribed your human weakness when at the sametime denying the existance of superpower. Your were born, grew up, grew to old and certainly will die( sooner or later as all of us) but the discussion of whether there is a god or not, which religion is the right one would never die. It was there for thousand of years and would be there, Is not that a sing of Allah's eternity??? We come and go but we cannot control ourself existance. That is the center of the relious discussion. In other words, why and how we came here??? hence, the discussion of relion is one of essential. NOT A PLAYGROUND STUFF. does your brain funcstion differently than any othet humanbeing, my Somali cousin?? Of course not you yourself are here to discuss on that issue. Arawello
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 08:23 am Galool, I have been reading some of your posts and first of all I must say that I share your sense of humour, you are hilarious sometimes. >:O) But not always... You bark too loud and bite too hard sometimes, old dog! (I don't know how old you are, but you talk like you already have 1 leg in the grave...) I also share some of your views and I guess the lack of belief (?). But I don't agree with you here. FG might use religion as a tool, what tool do you use? You come here and pick on everything they say and believe in, so what do you expect? I would say you don't get more than what you ask for? Now I have to admit that I also get upset when people tell me I will burn in hell only because I don't share their belief. Not that I believe in it, but it is such a nasty thing to say. Oh, well, I personally try not to discuss my faith too much, most people don't understand it anyway... You might want to say I am a coward, but I know my way of living wont change the world. We are all free to choose the path we want to follow through life, but we seem to have lost the word respect somwhere on our way. Folks, It is really amazing to see how easy it is to start a war in this world.... I guess we are allowed to loose our head now and then all of us, let's just make sure we put it back where it belongs... ;-) In the beginning I really thought that FG was a fanatic, but he proved me wrong. When I got to "know" him a little better I saw some of the qualities he has, and I like them. He has the ability to make me look at things in a different way, and it somehow makes my little world (inside my head that is) richer. He has a good sense of humour, as you also have detected, but he is in a denial there, so I'm working on it...hehehe! And I also remember I asked you once what happened to you, just like FG is curious about your background too....? And FG, don't believe for a second that I support you here, you say alot of strange things too sometimes... ;-)
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 08:25 am TheSmartONE, Please don't abuse the word smart, where are your manners? There is no need to judge people to underline a point. If your serious opinion is that Galool is an a'sshole (sorry about the bad language) then why level yourself BELOW his level? He is far more level-headed than you...I suppose this is not the way a GOOD muslim normally talks? Learn to walk before you run....
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:08 pm Galool, I’ll take your word for your being “as hard as a rock against bigotry of any kind” And FYI, in case you missed it,human rights embrace the whole spectrum of standards that every person expects as a minimum entitlement in any decent society, including COVERING ONESELF UP. BTW, stop hiding behind this “humanity”, “benevolence” gobbledygook. Show us your true colors. It is obvious to everyone that humanity or benevolence is not in your best interest. It just became a rallying cry for May Day for individuals like you with ulterior motives. Your arguments are lopsided. If, like you do, I thought of Islam (or religion in general) as “...childish and preposterous set of thought process” then I wouldn’t be running around describing it as a Juggernaut of untrammeled “evil”. It should be quite obvious for any thinking individual to see the predicaments you see with religion, unless of course you believe everyone but you, lacks that ability to see things with “clarity” The truth of the matter is: religion still commands the respect of millions of people. The generic preference for religious values and ideologies are universal and will be with us forever. They are also heightened by the relative absence of alternative visions (unless of course Galool will soon come up with a system that will “save” the world from the "evils" of Islam). The preference for religious values are not just linked to the waxing and waning of a few “fundamentalist” (like me?)but it is grounded in objective realities. Secular values like those your try to flog off have shown to be miserable failures at even the rapid material progress they promised, not to mention the nourishing of the human spirit. Go figure. WGN, is it just me or are you becoming "the voice of reason"?
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:17 pm TLG, I would just use your own words; Go figure...
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:51 pm WGN, lol
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| | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 05:03 pm Hey, TLG, I have a question for you just before I go to bed; I asked FG in what cases muslim women can get a divorce, and he told me to ask you. If you don't mind?
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:13 am SmartOne? Really!!? WGN I am sorry my sense of humour failed to meet your exacting Scandinavian standards. I will try to do better next time. I do not "pick on everything they say or believe in" In fact I do not even comment on over 90% of what is written here. Besides this is an open forums where people post their opinions,and that includes commenting on and criticising what other people say. If somebody is of sensitive nature and knows he/she will be offended by what I write, they could simply avoid reading my postings! Not very difficult is it? I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want and worship whichever deity they choose and that includes Islamists. This respect is however conditional that people keep their faiths to themselves and NOT try to ram it down my throat. when I see HKs wearing their orange robes and chanting Hare!hare! allday, I think they are a bit daft but I respect their faith. That is what you are doing here. You see a bunch of poor Third world cute little people (and hey some of them even have brains) practising what you think is an exotic and maybe eccentric faith. Your first Scandinavian reaction is to respect them, even patronise them, and the last stage of that process is to protect them, which is your current mode! I feel exactly the same way when I see HKs and Jehovah's witnesses. The common theme here is that Islamists pose no threat to you whatsoever, so it is easy for you to feel smug and say to me "respect their faith" The situation is different for me. They pose a Clear and Present Danger to my freedom and the freedom of my people, as MM will say. Islam is a whole package which includes IMPOSING theocratic rule on everyone else, starting with poor moi. EVERYONE here, including your newly-found friend FG, subscribes to that basic concept. I know this because I asked them BEFORE you discovered this site. I think you get message, and in the light of this, I believe I am entitled to criticise what is also part of my cultural heritage a little stronger than a White Norway girl, don't you think? Next time it maybe wiser to learn the rules of the game before you appoint yourself a referee. Arrawelo Nice to see you again. Where have you been? Come back to the folder because the people here do like you. I was worried about you last time you left the forums. I hope everything is OK. I will answer your points later. Anonymous I wasn't sure what you were getting at, but I think one of them was I should be ashamed admiring beautiful women since I am so old! Well what you don't know is that there some Ol' birds out there who are right old goers! If you had the patience and read my posting(the one you quoted) calmly you will have realised I was talking about nostalgic memories ie the past! I mean even old men were once young and the sexes have to admire each other(in fact they have to do a bit more than that) in order to keep the species going! What are they teaching you in that Madrassah? TLG Thanks for venturing out of the Halaaka Kids folder. One of the things I found out about beardos is that they have no qualms about twisting statements, throwing blatantly untrue accusations at people and fabricating stories when it suits them. I never described Islam as "Evil" or "Preposterous", "childish etc". I was talking a thought process of a typical Islamist like FG. Now FG maybe a good Muslim in your eyes, but even he would admit that He is not Islam! Maybe there is a part of you that would like Islam to be criticized along those terms, and you are trying to find a surrogate voice here? I don't care about people covering-up or not, I care about people having the freedom NOT to cover-up if they so wish. It is that right that Islamists would like to take away from Somali women - and as we have seen in places like Afghanistan, the right to vote, work, go to school etc. None of this obviously matters to you, cocooned as you are in a liberal Western country where you can stand out by bucking the fashion trend in your posh little campus. To millions of women around the Islamic world though, this matters very much as it could mean whether their daughters could get education or not - in fact their very survival is dependent on having a modicum of independence. You may say why does it matter to me anyway as it won't affect me. Well I have sisters, nieces, cousins, daughters(no grand-daughters yet as some moron kept on blabbering about) that I hope will live in a free country one day. He who oppresses my sister oppresses me. If you say to me you are for Islam which gives your gender the choice to cover-up or NOT to cover-up, we will be in agreement. Just say so.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 05:33 am It's better for old man like you to keep their sick(sorry) "fond memory" to himself instead of giving graphic PlayBoy description of could-be his doughters. What happened your concern for your doughters. Oh, I see. if they cover themselves up, then there would be no "dusky Somali beauties" stripping on Lida peach for the pleasure of an old sick man who drunk too many few alcohol. Imagine, who else would be upset about modest and decent Somali sister who cover her body!!?. I see your concern now. Glad that my Somali sisters are too smart( as they clearly posted everywhere) to fall into the trap of an old sick man. It all about choice, no need to use Taliban( poor Taliban, I don't really know them but I see people like Galool using them to justfy their crooked idea) as scapegoat for your trap. I see, the old man trying to play some card here but in the process he fall into very bad inconsistances. Do you see the hand he dealt to WGN and one he dealt to TGL?. Wow, I'm impressed!!. In his sympathy-seeking explanation( hey WGN and MM, I hope you guys understand, the wink old man gave you. Somali Saying; deaf man said:"I know when I'm wrong. Everybody looks at me" he admitts that he is after Islam when he said: "as MM will say. Islam is a whole package which includes IMPOSING theocratic rule on everyone else, starting with poor moi". "IMPOSING"  !!?????? then he says: "EVERYONE here, including your newly-found friend FG, subscribes to that basic concept". Here is talking about a "concept" which EVERYONE here subscribes to. then look how he cries wolf when talking to TGL: "One of the things I found out about beardos is that they have no qualms about twisting statements, throwing blatantly untrue accusations at people and fabricating stories when it suits them. I never described Islam as "Evil" or "Preposterous", "childish etc". I was talking a thought process of a typical Islamist like FG. The poor guy is a victim of "Islamist's" accusation. He was just talking about "a thought process". Take easy old man, no body is "IMPOSING" you anything. if what you have is good for you keep it and be happy with it. Most people here are happy and content with their belief. besides, as WGN asked you, what do you have to offer? just insults and bigotry?
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 06:14 am Galool, You got it all wrong, I am not here to judge anyone. Like you said; "this is an open forums where people post their opinions,and that includes commenting on and criticising what other people say." Yes indeed... "I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want and worship whichever deity they choose and that includes Islamists. This respect is however conditional that people keep their faiths to themselves and NOT try to ram it down my throat." I agree with this part, but people are not suppose to keep their faith to themselves in this place, this is an Islamic DISCUSSION forums, so don't you ask to get stuffed here? Let's use your own simple solution then and say; "If somebody is of sensitive nature and knows he/she will be offended by what I write, they could simply avoid reading my postings! Not very difficult is it?" I guess this includes you? You seem to believe that I am some sort of snow angel....? Nice, I will let you keep that illusion.... I also understand that your background is completely different from mine, but does that give you the right to say that I'm not entitled to criticize you while you at the same breath are entitled to criticize me? You might know the rules here better than me, but you sure try to run faster than your health allows.....
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 07:14 am WGN I never criticized anything you said before today, so I wasn't sure what you are on about! I don't think you are a snow angel, just a misguided and patronising little bird who thinks she has the right to play a referee in an issue she is perhaps least suited to. I do ignore MOST of what is written here, you obviously missed my comment when I said I don't comment on 90% or more of what is posted here? If you think what Islamists say to me in here bothers me then that clearly demonstrates your ignorance of the issues at stake here. Words from them don't hurt me, ignorance from busy-body outsiders annoys me. And NO, this is NOT an Islamic discussion forums actually. The folder is for all religious matters, but that was not my point anyway. My point was not about the forums. IT WAS IMPOSING RELIGION AS A POLITICAL RULE. Do you see the difference. What do you mean get stuffed? Remember it is the birds who lose their way and end up in the slaughterhouse who do GET STUFFED! Anonymous Are you a boy or a girl? I'm sorry but it would make a difference to the way I address you. Before that I will hold my comments lest I offend a lady!
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 07:51 am Galol, I assume I have the same right as you to post my opinions here? Because that's what it was. My opinion, unfortunalely it was about you.. It seems like I hit a sensitive spot, huh? To enlighten you; You are an outsider here too... And I didn't miss your comment, I ignored it. Because I don't care how much you comment, why should I? But if that's the issue here, how much do I comment then? I do not comment anything in here unless I feel I can contribute something. Go see for yourself. But I do ask questions, and I think I do it in the right board too??? So please, it doesn't work to spit words like ignorant, misguided and patronising in my face, that's not the right way to shoot the little bird. You don't even feather it... Oh, and have you ever heard about a stuffed swan?? lol! But I know I've seen some stuffed pigs with a big red apple in the mouth....
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 08:15 am WGN The only thing is you weren't contributing anything, you were trying to tell me how to behave, which is rich coming from a lady who feels it necessary to mention her private bits and calls people stuffed pigs - and that is in what she thinks is an Islamic forums! I rest my case.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 08:41 am Galool, no, I would never dare to tell you to behave, you're an intelligent man, you know how it works. And you're right, this is too silly to argue about.... Hm, sorry to hear that you feel like a stuffed pig...lol!
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 11:11 am WGN This is obviously degenerating into a slanging match and I am not going to participate in it. Never insult ladies I was told. Interesting you were haranguing people about respecting each other only few postings ago. Good-bye.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 11:53 am Galool, Just a little reminder before I leave you alone; You said; I don't think you are a snow angel, just a misguided and patronising little bird....Remember it is the birds who lose their way and end up in the slaughterhouse who do GET STUFFED! I replied;Oh, and have you ever heard about a stuffed swan?? lol! But I know I've seen some stuffed pigs with a big red apple in the mouth.... I didn't use the word YOU in this, YOU chose to interprete it that way.... You have to earn respect to get respect.... Byeeeeeee!
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 12:05 pm Galool Hallo Dirty OLD Man? all u do is insulting ppl when u run out Excuses to make ppl to understand your points...u r Sad! I read lately an artical about...R u suufering from AIDS? when is last time u check yourself? I can see u r one FOOT to the GRave, all I have to say Face the HELL!
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:16 pm Galool hater I do not talk to moronic gerbils with the intellectual capacity of still-born aardvarks like you. So why don't you just crawl back to the slime-pond you just emerged from? WGN I don't need your respect, I just don't want you telling me how to talk to other people, and what issues to discuss with whom, especially when what I was talking about was not an area of your expertise. It is not really too much to ask is it?
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:27 pm Galool, how goes it cyber uncle? One of the things I found out about YOU is that you have no qualms denying things (may be it is a Journalist’s strong point), crying misinterpretation when people point out your discrepancies and screaming humanity when it suits you. If you care soooo much about Somali daughters/sisters/mothers, if you are a “voice” for the “voiceless” as you often claim. Then why aren’t you in Somalia when these “voiceless” need you the most? Why are you seating in your cozy big chair slinging mud with little spoilt brats like me, “cocooned in a liberal Western country” where I “can stand out by bucking the fashion trend” in my “posh little campus”. Huh? Your hypocrisy knows no boundaries. How dare you bemoan “fundamentalism”, “extremism” and lament about Islamists when it is they who are there, putting the county back together. A county that is in political, social and economic turmoil thanks to the efforts of the champions of secular ideologies like those you try to ram down our throats. Boy! Don’t you fall in the trap of being “humanely correct”- cheer leader for the “I believe in humanity” camp, asleep when the war lords were robbing the country or maybe, just maybe too busy then writing fawning SHORT STORIES of some lil girl oppressed by Islam! Never fear abtee. I’ll be back for you after my finals. WGN, insha allah i'll answer your question about divorce soon. To all, If anyone has any info on what WGN is asking, please feel free to post it)
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:41 pm Galool, why all this whining then if you don't need my respect?? Give me a beak! I am not telling you how to talk and what to talk about...this is getting real silly..... I don't think you are so old after all?? Would I be allowed to talk if it is within the area of my "expertise" and would you degrade yourself to answer me then?? You're such a Wesserbisser! Peace! TLG, thanks!  I am not in a hurry.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:44 pm LOOOOOOL@WNG, you had me laughing so hard!!!! This guy Galool (AKA Psycho-Blubberer) is a ‘defender’ of Muslim women’s rights and it seem he is now protecting a poor little white girl. I guess he picked a fight with the wrong person, lol (I will keep that in mind besides I learnt my lesson few weeks ago) Little does he know women and men alike willfully choose Islam and are in no need of defense form those who choose to abandon Islam. He seeks support in his disbelief and will not cease until he reaches his objective. You are most welcome on this discussion board and it is as you say, Islam is the Topic of Discussion, Duh. I am sure you disagree with some of our views and agree with others, which is fine. Islam is more than your typical ‘religion’ and this is where our old man’s confusion lies. So in Islam (and other faiths) Alcohol is considered as an intoxicant and banned. A Muslim country (hypothetically) will ban this substance. Galool says, “IT WAS IMPOSING RELIGION AS A POLITICAL RULE” this distinction does not exist in Islam, I am not sure what he expects Muslims to rule themselves by? Galool’s RULES? Or perhaps those of the founding fathers??? Popular choice maybe? Islam is the popular choice in Somalia (I know this on first account), and all Muslim countries. This, in spite of all the negative portrayals of Islam in the media. Some thing tells me even if Islamist were to win a popular election, what is the opposite of a beardo?….weirdos??? will never support an Islamic government. Look at Algeria…where were the weirdos?? They love to protest and scream human rights!!! Or is it only these weirdos who know what is best for us?? Islam is the fastest growing ‘religion’ (way of life) in the west and the world at large. You will find those who oppose Islam to be among the most bigoted and fanatical of people in their opposition to Islam! I accept that a person dislikes Islam and this maybe why the old man is here in the west or perhaps due to the civil War but to fight for the right of Muslims to disobey Islamic law is like fighting for your right to disobey Norwegian laws. A problem arises when a sick man tries to operate a blue light district in the middle of makkah! It is not good enough that he has the right to drink and sin in private….he wants to drag the whole nation with him. He is more fanatical then any of us ‘beardos’ will ever be. I suggest you study the treatment of Minorities in the former Muslim caliphate and compare it with Galool’s wishful thinking. He would like to convince you and us that Islam was spread by the sword and is a tyrannical rule. Unbiased non Muslim Historians point out that Islam was in many instances welcomed because it ended a lot injustices and feudal systems. Places such as Indonesia and Malaysia were converted without a single Muslim soldier setting foot there. I will end as the head beardo (TLG, lol) says, go figure! GaloolHater, That was uncalled for
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 04:01 pm I think the issue at the core of Galool's concern is Islamism versus Secularism. We all know that islam is a just religion that provides a blueprint for a social order. The problem stems from men who are after power and hence use relgion for parochial ulterior motives! Personally, I love Islam, what I can't stand is the hypocritical Somali men who put their tribes before what Islam mandates (just note what so-called "Islamic courts" did in Mogadishu, Merka and other places in the South!). It is such a fear of human weakness that many opt for a seculur system BECAUSE, it is easy to challenge and fight the injustice of a secular system, whereas, a system under the cover of Islam would be sacrosant and untouchable. Islam is perfect; it is the soldiers of Islam that need to get their act together! My 2 cents.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 06:53 pm <...BECAUSE, it is easy to challenge and fight the injustice of a secular system, whereas, a system under the cover of Islam would be sacrosant and untouchable.> Skylark, i'm vehmently in agreement with everything u said with the exception of the above paragraph. In all honesty, it is easier to fight the injustice of a secular systmem depending on your bank account. In a secular system, money dominates the system until it becomes the sytem. Those who write the checks write the laws and ask the questions and enjoy justice. I mean, look at the OJ simpson case! Look at the number of innocent people on death-row! Even a system under the "cover of Islam" is not untouchable if people EDUCATE themselves about their GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS. They can easily challenge the injustice regardless of the size of their wallet/bank account. Anyway, I agree with you on the point that some power-hungry morons misuse Islam. But it happens, and it largely does, everywhere, including the so called democratic systems. And will definitely happen in a supposedly secular system in Somalia. Galool hater, I forgot to say this in my earlier post: I think you are overstepping your boundaries. If you want to disagree with galool, you should do it in a scholarly manner no need for name calling.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 07:26 pm TLG You are so naive! Can not you tell Skylark is Galool??? I bet this skylark will turn around and blame everything on Islam forgetting he/she initially said that Islam is perfect and broblem stems from Somali men. WGN Don not mind Galool.He has never been able to behave his age.You definetely touched a raw nerve though.That is why he is very much upset with you.He operates on a brinciple called I will critisize you but you can not critisize me.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 08:30 pm TLG sis I always enjoy reading your posts, but since the 'halaaka' you abondoned us I agree with the points you raised, however, I still contend that it is much easier to address issues of injustices in a non secular system. Just note the case of Saudia Arabia or Afghanistan, a lot is being done in the name of Islam and I don't see any-one challenging anything, Why? (If you want specific examples I am talking about the situation of women and issues such as access to education, economic opportunities or even ability to drive oneself around!). Maybe as you said the problem is that people don't have a true understanding of Islam in its totality, and that is where the challenges lies for all those involved in Islamic dawa. Anonymous is the likes of you who give Islam a bad name, you know the type that is mean, suspiscious, parnoid and self-righteoues all at the same time. You are sick and obsessed with Galool! I read a posting of yours saying MadMac is Galool and now it is Skylark is Galool!! You are one pathetic dude. I don't give a hoot who you think I am.
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| | Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 08:35 pm Galool. You have enough to deal with. As somalis say: "Don't dig a hole, and if you dig it, don't make it too deep because you don't know if you will fall into it instead". Your devious and unfounded comments about islam didn't work did it?. This reminds a verse from the Quran: "35:43 (In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any, save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah." By Shakir. Your deceite and pickering fired back at you. Honestly though, not a second in my entire dealing with you, had I thought about you in complete carelessness pertaining to your situation. I always wished you would change your attitude and understand that you are nothing without the belief in your creator. Being too proud and sometimes ignoring the obvious is what caused you to insist in your way of hopelessness I think. Isn't that why you always repeat you keep quite about 90% percent of islam(thus agreeing with it). I don't think that is just a mere saying but one that has an underlined understanding of yours about islam(You can act tough funda if you want as you always do or agree with me here old man). I pray for you and for your family's guidance. Disbelief only hurts those who associate with it and no one else. "035.039 He it is That has made you inheritors in the earth: if, then, any do reject (Allah), their rejection (works) against themselves: their rejection but adds to the odium for the Unbelievers in the sight of their Lord: their rejection but adds to (their own) undoing". Galool, you have what it takes to reflect on your own. We are no differnt than you are but human beings just like you. So, a choice is a choice one makes for himslef/herself. Don't be too grumpy about us when we say nothing but islam. I am wondering if you are offended a little by outsiders(as you termed) saying you should not bark too loud?. That HURT REAL BAD if you ask me lol. I was laughing all day when I read that.(You can let me get away with this one and don't pick on anyone else but me if you dare). Galool, GET THE QURAN AND REREAD IT. May be you will see what you missed in your days of ignorance. If you don't be nice, NEXT TIME I will bite too bad. So behave.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:20 am Lots going on here. I don't log on for a couple of days and I get behind the power curve. Galool Tank that made the biggest difference. You must be refering to the Soviet T-34. It was not the heaviets but it wasn't even CLOSE to the lightest, and in fact was one of the heavier tanks when it was fielded in 1940. Design had several novel features including sloped frontal armour which defeated the 50mm and 37mm gun found on most German tanks of the time (PzKw Mk III) until the III L came along in mid-41 (in limited numbers) with a longer barreled 50mm. The T-34 had a simple but reliable drive train and an excellent gun with a decent fire control system. Most importantly the Russians made a lot of them and upgraded them contually, culminating the the T-34/85 which replaced the 76mm gun originally mounted with a more effective 85mm found on the Kiev Heavy tank. This version was exported to numerous Soviet sattelites after the war. Much has been made of the T-34 and rightfully so. It had a tremendous impact on subsequent German tank design and also did much to stem the German attack in 41 and 42. The generalship that commanded tank formations was hopelessly outclassed by the German general staff, but the tank was superb for sure. Next test question (you're 0 for 1 so far. Answer to the last one was the Battle of the Kurk Salient - largest tank battle in History. Occured in 1943. The Germans employed their relatively new Tiger Tank and Very New Panther Tank. The Panther had a lot of mechnical problems but later went on to become probably the most lethal tank of the war (sloping front plate design coming from - you guessed it, the T-34). The Germans lost this fight and it was the first time that the German summer offensive got stopped in it's tracks). So on to the next question: What the the last major German offensive of the war and what were it's objectives??? As for other fights being insignificant: What single engagement surrender cost the Germans more troops than any other? Everyone loves to cite tghe surrender of Von Paulus' 6th Army in Stalingrad. Epic though that was, the Axis lost 285,000 men there (I won't say only, that's a lot of men) while losing around 350,000 when the Afrika Korps surrendered in Tunisia in 1943. In general the Germans had about 3 times as much combat power tied up in the East versus the West. Certainly the Russian contribution was immense. HOWEVER, had the Germans not had to tie up resources fighting the U-boat war, the Air war, and the ground campaign in the West, had it's air force been available to fight the Russians instead of being shattered in the skies of Western Europe, had those 60 divisions been free to fight in Russia instead of tied down in the West, had the Russians received no lend-lease aid from America, the Russians would likely have lost the war. Your position on this is superficial and classic revisionist history which makes a simple statement and then supports it with limited facts without looking at the whole picture. AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO TALK ABOUT THE JAPANESE. That part of the war the US won almost single-handedly. But according to Galool, who fortunately isn't ready to invoke hubris (which is a good thing saxib - it's not justified in this case) the Russians won WW II all by themselves. As for Kosovo - again I reiterate my position. Bombing a soveriegn State is an act of war. Accruing casualties is not anywhere in the definition. Kosovo was a war perpetrated by NATO against Serbia, a soveriegn state. It was solely an Air War and it was lopsided to be sure, but it meets the definition of war. Leverenti Berria was a peadophile of the nth degree. A true pervert if ever there was one. Don't believe me - ask the Russians. It is well documented in the Soviet archives. He was also probably a psychopath - the reaons that the post-Stalin soviet oligarchy decided it was a good idea if he was not part of the political equation are also exhaustive. OK, so your knowledge of WW II and Soviet Russia is superficial and basically sucks. There are greater sins in the world. In your subsequent post, I must admit I too share your weaknesses and strengths (though not always your thought processes or conclustions). And I am still young enough to get nubile women, although at least for now I have settled for just one. Arawello Nice to see you back Abai. We were missing you (take it easy on Nour, he's allright. You two just didn't hit it off right away). TheSmartOne (yeah right!!) Look moron, I am MAD MAC the American and Galool is Somali. He speaks Somali and I don't. I am a soldier (shoudl be obvious) and he has not. And by your own admission you heap all kufaars into one pot and assume they are all enemies of Islam. And how on Gods green earth you conclude Galool is a Jew I don't know. Do you know how to read?? What a dumbass. It's people like you who give the 1st Amendment a bad name. And who are you to judge Galool and his ultimate fate. The Qur'an specifically forbids this - only Allah can say who will go to hell and who will not. Message for TheDumbAss from MAD MAC: Go home, see if you can find your Qur'an (assuming you actually own one), wipe off the dust and try reading it before you start popping off. Just when I think we've got only reasonable, if somewhat passionate, folks posting here on the net, along comes some guy who is obviously depriving a village somewhere of it's idiot. JB Much of what you wrote was accurrate, HOWEVER (and there's always a however) Galool's fears are not unjustified. Modern Islamic fundamentalism has taken on the charecter of facism and uses the Qur'an to justify it's objectives. Hence in Afghanistan it is enforcing a very narrow interpretation of Islam, In Iran dissent is being treated as treachery, in Saudi Arabia it is used to prop up the House of Saud, In Algeria it is a tool of psychopaths, and so on. This could also happen in Somalia. Galool wants post-civil war Somalia to look like pre-civil war Somalia without the dictatorship. That is, some sort of democracy with the social atmosphere that existed before the war. That social atmosphere tolerated bars, nightlife, etc. (among other things). Galool does not want Somalia to end up like Afghanistan, and he has a point here. Your position that Islam is not compulsory, that Islam has a history of tolerance, and that Somalis are ALMOST exclusively Muslim are also valid. BUT keep in the back of your mind that Islam as it is mostly practiced now nearly as tolerant as Islam as it was practiced then. Islam now spends a lot of time not focussed on the spiratual (the emphasis on Mohammeds preaching) but on codes of conduct and the villification of others. In this climate of excessive condemnation it's no wonder that there is a negative reaction to same.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:17 am FG Your shrill triumphalism is noted but I wonder what has changed? All that happened is that one more person has crash-landed on the discussion without checking the ground underneath her - not a wise a move. But there were already dozens of you here, arguing against every point I make, but I never saw you shreiking with this moon-gazing, wolf-howling delight! I mean despite all the gallant efforts made by the "sisters" here to bite chunks off my arguments, you were never this deliriously pleased by one girl's attempt at playing the naughty headmistress! At least the "sisters" had an idea of what they were talking about, WGN doesn't, but she seems to have made your day! It isn't by any chance anything to do with that promise she made to you, you know the one about sticking lovely things into your nostrils, is it? C'mon old boy, admit it I can understand that! Whatever it is she seems to have refreshed the beardo parts other sisters cannot reach , and it most CERTAINLY isn't anything to do with her knowledge of the subject under discussion. The sad thing about all of this is that you seem to have reverted to your old metallic phase which I worked so hard to improve you from. I can hear the clanking noise of irrelevant verses being churned out, eyes rolled, mouth foaming again, the only thing is there is a SMILE on that mouth now, which is good. I will only have to start working on you all over again! WGN No I don't need your respect, take it from me, but hey you can criticise me, insult me or whatever. I just wanted to let you know that I am not upset with you - a little annoyed about your little attempt at playing the headmistress thats' all. So c'mon let out a huge stream of abuse in Norwegian, I can see you are irching for it, so c'mon Old bird, get it off your chest! (and you never know I may even enjoy it. MM, TLG, Skylark Talk to you later.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 03:01 am Hahaha, Galool, what is wrong with you, are you jealous or what?? Do you want something up your nostrils too?? Hm, I do notice that you have done your homework ...Secretly reading posts only to take a few words out of the whole and threw it in FG's face...Nice.... I bet you have been waiting for the right moment.... You're a TRUE FIGHTER...lol! That one was real cheap...Are you really sure YOU are a qualified participater in this discussion?? Or is just a bad habit you have to change track too fast? Do you need help to get back on the track? You're just trying to start a hare. Naughty Headmistress JB, later Sunshine....
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:03 am MM The concerns you raised about Islam(although, I believe it's many of it is distortion and misinterpretation) can be discussed in civilized and gentle manner. But with Galool, the case is different. This guy lacks the manner of intellect and he claims one. He does not know reason, rationality, logic. All he knows is just name calling. Look at his above posts and see how many different names he called Islam. Another problem he is not some one acting on ideology or suggesting anything (like PragmatiGal) then we can discuss and compare what he suggests. He is not consistent with his claims. When one claim does not work, he jumps to another one( just look up the word hypocrite in the dictionary and compare the definition of that word with the behavior of Galool). I'm not a psychologist but it's obvious that this guy is really suffering from some kind of chronic internal complexity/disorder. Golool It does not matter if I'm a boy or girl. No discrimination or sexism here.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 09:28 am Anonymous I disagree with your assessment on Galool. He has a basic train of thought which supports pluralistic democratic systems and rejects facist states in any form. Let's face it, the current crop of "Islamic" states out there have more than a touch of totalitarianism. Galool wants to live in a country where he can drink a beer and say what he wants without being pilloried.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 09:51 am GALOOL HELVATA! FIIVAN!! VA Hater DU? ALL of my muslim brothers and Sister....why r u discussing this ppl about ISALM? they r clearly Islam Hater...All they want waste your TIME....so instead doing Islamic NEtwork...they want 2 you 2 be here ..so u guys can Listen their...Ignorent, arrogand Nonsense....Com,on guys it is about the Time time 2 realise...NO can be Guided anless Allah(swt) Guide them...Lets Do a better things rather than argumen this 2 or I amy say 1 OLD EMPTY CANS!.......they don,t deserv our time!
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 10:03 am tgl- reading your posts around, i had my suspicions you grew up with white folks. I'm now convinced more than ever you are white-washed! So you think OJ Simpson bought justice? A black man gets a fair trial once in his life time and even the blacks accuse him of buying justice. Get your facts straight girly.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 11:08 am Skylark, <The problem stems from men who are after power and hence use relgion for parochial ulterior motives! > I agree this BUt completly disagree with your n next sentence <.....the hypocritical Somali men who put their tribes before what Islam mandates (just note what so-called "Islamic courts" did in Mogadishu, Merka and other places in the South!).> I think as you mentioned it is the human weakness that creates problems BUt would that make us opt for a secular system? When we know that human beings are not perfect. As you said its the soldieers of Islam that need to get their act together. BUt I have a question for you; Are not you one of the Islamic soldiers .me and you and all the Muslims. Is not it our responsibilty to correct others? learn our Diin? I do not understand how you took awya that responsibity of yourself. And I see your commont ignorant from the fact of being Islam ( no offence) I think, to call the Islamic court in the South Somalia ' so-called-Islamic courts '' is rather naive and the least a contribution to the already dicaayad Islam. Think again. And a word of what you said that 'it is easy to challenge and fight the justice of a secular system'' My opinion on that is that it is easier to be satisfied with an Islamic system , at least you have your faith that the poeple jugding you have Islamic fiath and least will try their best to deliver judgement. I do not mean to sound that the Westrent systems do not have a good system to deliver justice But there is nothing comparalbe to Allah's jsutice system. I do not like the word 'untouchable' can you eloborate that please? TGL, <it is easier to fight the injustice of a secular systmem depending on your bank account. In a secular system, money dominates the system until it becomes the sytem. Those who write the checks write the laws and ask the questions and enjoy justice. I mean, look at the OJ simpson case! Look at the number of innocent people on death-row! > I am not entirely sure what you mean in this whole pragraph. But in my opinion, I do think the Westren secular system works to some extand without depending much on Bank account and I do not think some of the thing you said here is fair to say about it. ( though, I would never compare it with Allah's one ) Ps. carefull with the Oj'case it is not as simple as you made it sound. Forgive me if I offended anyone here. faaisa
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:21 pm MM Well said for him. Certainly, I'm against Totalitarianism, that is why I'm not calling American constitution as "Childish", "evil", "Play ground", etc. I actually abide by the law of the Land, without mockery or making fun of it. Is't that what ant-totalitarianism means. allow people to have their rule and choice, then if your personal lifestyle does not compromise with the law of the land then go to where the law suits you without insulting. You sure Galool is anti-totalitarian??. Sure, he does not write as you said he is. Galool know, Islam is anti-totalitarian. If he does not know, he must lied to us when he said he knows something about Islam. Ask Galool, did you ever take an oath of citizenship of any country?. in his oath, can he says: "disloyal" instead of "loyal". Come on! It's freedom of speech. Freedom of speech UNDER THE LAW OF THE LAND( don't forget the last part). My friend sat a seat in a mall, tried to smoke and was asked to leave the place, and he went without a single word. Another guy was sentenced many years in prison for smoking Marijuana. What a mistake he did!!. He should not have smoked Marijuana, or if he wants to smoke he should have gone to somewhere in Scandinavia(was it Norway, WGN?. Tell me if I'm in trouble. I don't want pick a fight with you lol) where Marijuana smoking is legal. I hope you get my point. Civilized people exchange ideas without resorting to insults and mockery.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:36 pm Anonymous, I think this so and so is galool thing is becoming a lil childish. I'm naive in many ways but I sincerely think you are confusing characters here. Let's not be suspicious, for the prophet peace be upon him said, "...suspicion is the worst of false tales". Skylark, I agree with you to a large exent but you don't need to hear from me that Saudia or Iran don't repesent an Islamic system. I don't have that much time right now, so I will raise my objections to some of your points some other time insha allah. Blackman, how can you tell from my writing who I grew up with? I bet you are suffering from that inferiority complex- you know that thing where if you are "smart" or speak proper English you are accused of being white-washed thereby storing all intellect and glory for whites? Besides, can you cite where I said OJ bought Justice? I was merely saying that if you have money, you get a "fair" trial coz you can have the best people argue your case. I was just saying that money dictates whether the sytems works for you or not. I couldn't careless whether OJ was guilty or not. Faisa, all I was saying in that paragraph you quoted was that money talks and when it does it speaks loud and clear. That if you have money you can have the sytem work for you. And that money dictates everything from the elections (white house "coffee" fundings to courts (who actually becomes a judge/justice). Insha Allah i'll be careful with the OJ thing...I see what it did to me-i'm now "white-washed" amongst other things. I guess the list of what I am on somalinet will never end. Anyway, I gotta go before I flank my exams and therefore fail to graduate (Allah forbid).
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:47 pm Anonymous 1 I like your open-mindedness regarding Sexism, and from now on, I will assume you are a boy, but please do not hesitate to let me know if I offend you in anyway. You seem to think I offer no alternative view to politicised Islam. That is not the case. I will put it to you in simple terms, and I hope you understand it. My offer is political pluralism. What this basically entails is that ALL views are welcomed and respected. If you wish Somalia (or any other country for that matter) to be an Islamic State, governed along Sharia lines, you will have to form a party and participate in an open, democratic election. You will be given access to the media in reflection of your party's membership. On your part, you will accept the Democratic constitution, and will endeavour to hold elections on the terms outlined in the aforesaid constitution. I hope that clarifies your concerns. Any problems, please do not hesitate to ask me. WGN I did say I don't comment on lot of the things I read. And no I wasn't waiting for it, but yes, it did come in handy in support of my argument. I thought you were against fighting, but I could swear you said that("you are a fighter" in a positive manner! So you like fighters little Swan, do you? Stick to this fighting business and next time I will call you an Eagle! Anonymous 2 Surely the best thing to do is to practice what you preach and ignore me, but you don't do you? you tell everybody else to stop talking to me while you put in your valuable contributions! ever heard of a word called hypocrisy? Blackman I am the last person who has been "whitewashed" but I believe OJ was guilty as hell! Justice should not be about Race, but about Justice! I think the honourable thing for him to do was to say "Yes, I murdered the mother of my children in a fit of jealousy, and I will have to live with it for the rest of my life!" But instead he used Race in a desperate and dishonest bid to save his ass, and I have no respect for people who inflame Racial feelings in a selfish bid to save their sorry backsides. FG Here is a Norwegian joke for you. How do you drive if you have two gorgeous nipples stuck-up your nose? Answer: Very carefully!
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:14 pm Galool, have you no shame? I thought you don't like to offend ladies.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:42 pm Galooooooooool, man, you are something else... :-)))))))))))))) Wag your tail, doggy! FG, is it true that your nostrils are so wide apart?? Oh, a better Norwegian joke; How make old Galool quiet? Answer; wet his lips and stick him to the window..... (sorry folks, this got out of control a long time ago, I am not going to contribute to make it worse, I just couldn't resist....I swear I will not do it again.....) The Eagle TLG; Good luck with your exams!
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 02:04 pm TLG What have I done? (hands clasped, looking repentant, thanks Common) FG is NOT a lady so what is the problem? Should I not mention the word "nipples" or what? aren't nipples one of the most glorious and sacred parts of the human anatomy? Most of us got our first nourishment from there in our reluctant entrance into this world, they soothed us, comforted us, and at least to us boys(including older ones) made our dreams when we grew up, and we still want their holy sight till we die!. So how come an educated and mature woman like you feels that nipples should not be mentioned in public!!!! What is wrong with you cyberniece? Are you OK?
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 02:16 pm Galool If you check any Encyclopedia, It will say at least 98% of Somalis are Muslims. Then look at, say, USA or England, then maybe more than 2% are Muslims. Imagine, now having Islamic Political Party in USA and compete for US president. The people will laugh at you. US or England constitutions don't allow Islamic parties. I know you would not call England and US as totalitarian(they are the ones who brain-fed you with these kind of words). Now if Somalis don't allow non-Islamic parties under their constitution, then you think that is not fair and totalitarian?!!.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 02:27 pm Galool you did not mention them in a decent context or intention. At least this should be boys's joke.
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 02:30 pm Blackman, the biggest mistake the prosecution probably did in the OJ case was to let black women be in the jury. They have developed a special hatred towards white women because they feel they steal their men. So it is likely to believe that they ment she (Nichole Simpson) just got what she deserved... After I watched a programme about the case and saw what a huge amount of evidence they had, I just have to say; It is obvious that the grade of justice in America is measured in money. OJ is a free man only because of 2 obvious reasons; 1. He could afford to pay for the best lawyers, 2. He had support from the jury. A glaring contrast to the innocent people who are being executed because they couldn't afford a lawyer....
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| | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 09:55 pm Anonymous I get your point. Sometimes in his haste to be a free thinker Galool gets carried away. But that's not a crime. Nour What the hell is an "Islamic party" and what makes you think such a thing is banned??? Galool I assume you have capitulated to my wisdom on the subject of WW II. Wise move.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 01:34 am MM I wasn't sure what you understood with anonymous, but whatever it is I disagree with it!! Just joking. I never get carried away with anything. My arguments are balanced, focused, and consistant (Eff modesty!) I sometimes deliberately touch a sore point in order to provoke a reaction, (it wasn't very hard to provoke the turban gang in the early days, but I do admit that old fox FG now knows when not to fall for my provocation, so things are little bit harder) WW2- I thought I won that one! The whole point was that the war in Europe was and won and lost on the Eastern front, that by the time the Brits and the Yanks did their little stint on Normandy beaches the war was already as good as over, and that Uncle Joe's USSR have shown heroism and valour almost beyond human comprehension! Factual, incontrovertible statistics support my views. Of course US servicemen fought bravely in the pacific but even that was won before it started - and there was no need to drop H-bombs. The world sees it as typical American Ramboism, not evil, but gung-ho overkill. The material assistance given to USSR was limited and DID NOT make any strategic difference to the outcome of the war. It is true the British navy braved the icy waters of the arctic and U boats in order to deliver some food and munitions, but these were no more than a drop in the Ocean. What saved Uncle Joe was the biggest industrial evacuation the world has even seen - 15,000 whole factories were simply put on railroads and transported to Siberia. Basically, this ginormous country moved east, save for few major cities. Never before or after was this done anywhere in world history and the West watched this superhuman effort in awe. You agreed with almost every point I made so what is the issue? Nour You are wrong. Islamic parties ARE allowed to form and compete in the political systems of these countries. Check with the electoral commissions of these countries. Anonymous Are you the one that calls me dirty old man? Can I ask how old you are? Why do I get the feeling you are underage by the way you scream whenever anything remotely sexual is mentioned? I think you are at that age where hormones are whizzing around the body and you are confused by the whole business, or is it that you are in your late teens or early twenties but with no experience in that department? If latter applies then I blame the boys! FG Anybody saw FG lately? didn't have an accident while enjoying the views did he? OK, FG come back I promise I won't tease you with this anymore. Come back and answer some serious TWO (no pun intended)questions! I will write down them down later.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 01:52 am Anonymous top (this is getting ridiculous) I agree with you Islam was not supposed to be totalitarian, but it is practized as a Totalitarian political system today. Iran, Afghanistan, Saudia take your pick. Of course I will respect the Laws of the land as you put it, but you are assuming that the Law of Somalia should be an Islamic one, and I am saying it should NOT be - that is the core of my disagreement with politicised Islam. Calling political organisations names should be FINE under a non-totalitarian system and criticisms, even insults should be allowed. In reality, I never called Islam any of the above things, but if that is what you want to believe, and you are against Totalitarianism as you claim then silly insults like that should not bother you should they? ONLY under Totalitarian systems is criticism not tolerated, pluralistic and democratic societies welcome it! Capische amigo? MM You disappoint me. Is this what you were agreeing with and accusing me of going over-the-top? The guy/girl is saying that I should accept the Law of the Land presuming that LAW should be an Islamic one? Did you get that?
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 02:50 am Asalaamu Aleikum all Mad Just came back from Germany, tried to contact you, but was stuck in a small village two hours away from frankfurt with no internet access Uhmmm... Germany is very interesting... particulary the food, my cousin was marrying a white german lady, so i had super issues with the cusine.It was the first time i ever been to a "white wedding". They were a great bunch of folk. I was with my dad,things went pretty smooth we went five days, and i thought we were gonna make it with no major events but then.. he mentioned the "H" word (Hitler) at the dinner table on the last evening.lol. All in all,what i am saying is it would have been nice to hook up... if only it to take you up on that rice and lamb thing. Everyone thought i had a eating disorder, cause i would fain being full up everytime i was offered food. peace
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 03:19 am Galool I agree that the Russians showed tremendous courage and tenacity in repelling the German invasion. I agree they sufferred tremendous losses (the most of any combatant by far: 13 million civilian deaths, 7 million military deaths). I agree that they made the largest comtribution to the victory. I DO NOT agree that they won the war single handedly. Certainly the war was decided by the end of 1942 in fact, after the final successful German offensive of that summer. Germany simply over-extended itself. But imagine this scenerio: May 1940 The Italian Folgore Division (their Airborne division and along with the Alpini division the only units that could fight worth a crap) seizes Malta. The Germans focus their U-Boat effort on Isolating the Med while the Italian Navy decides to get in the war and cut of Suez from Mediteranean traffic. The Germans then put two Panzer Divisions into North Africa plus a light Division. They also dedicate their air arms to supporting this isolation and the ground campaign in North Africa. The Germans drive across Libya and Egypt and seize Suez and establish a Naval Air station on the horn of Africa, threatening all British shipping with U-boats and aircraft that try and make it around Africa to Britain. Then they really up the pressure on Britain and literally force the British to capitulate. None of this happened of course, but assuming it did, and assuming the Germans never declared war on America (now this kind of scenerio eliminates any pretense at a second front) then Germany doesn't invade Yugoslavia and Greece in 1941 (no need because the Brits are out of it so they can't threaten the southern flank). Suddenly all the German combat power can be focussed on attacking Russia and they get an extra four weeks to do it. In this scenerio, the Germans have approximately 20% more combat power to put to commit to against the Russians, their entire air force to provide ground support and the Russians are getting little or not help from outside. Moscow definately falls, Leningrad probably falls - all in 41. German positions for the winter are sound. There's no great German defeat that winter. In the spring and early Summer the Caspian Basin and it's oil fields falls as well. Game over. Without fuel the Russians can't win. So I would submit to you that the Russian sacrifices and efforts, while certainly providing the proponderance of force in the European theater and absorbing the brunt of German combat power, did not win the war on its own. This is a gross over-simplification. Also, the sacrifices of the Russian people to win this war of survival in no way reflect positively on Stalin, who remains a brutal dictator and evil personality - one of the most brutal and evil in human history.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 03:34 am Galool. I hope you realize you missed your objective of scoring anything by what is written up there. You never learn Galool. I am trying to sell you to the young people here lest they accept you and teach you something and you blew it on my face. Some grey hair. If your ideology is not what causes you to win your debates with people, insolence and impertinence(which are your strong points) do accomplish nothing for you. We should avoid the vexation and impertinence and to talk in a language filled with aversion or repugnance. You made no sense up there. You just added to your demise old man. May be this wisdom would help when they said: "The manner of doing is more consequence than the thing done, and upon that depends the satisfaction or disgust wherewith it is received". --Locke. In case you don't realize, I am one of the few people who talk to you regardless of your rustic and insolent behaviour. You don't wanna loose one of your last hopes. WGN had an excuse for what she said due to her background. What excuse do you have?. That isn't part of the cultural heritage you were harrassing her about was it?. I warned you lest when I leave you alone you die of too much sadness which you should die for anyway. It doesn't scape me that You come here to feel some hope around the horizon and admire the way young people have beaten you to the good. Isn't that why you express your rage at everything they say?. Rage is what oozez out from your comments. Be candid about your feelings Odey. Say it, you admire people here and would like to be part of their world. You know you are at a disadvantage. It makes me worried that you have to beg for inclusion and force your way in all the time. That is why I feel sometimes I shouldn't be hard you. It will change though if you don't. PS: Don't get heart attack. I didn't express anything yet. More to come after my test on thursday.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 05:10 am Galool Are you sure I'm wrong? Check the Law of Seperation of State & Church. then tell me if I'm wrong. Little do they know unlike church, Islam is very advanced political, financial and Social system. MM What I mean by a "Islamic Party" is: Political party whose constitution is based on Sharia Law.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 10:12 am FG Thank Allah! You are still alive and you still got that smile on your face! I think I was entitled to wonder why you were purring with such delight when WGN decided to play her ill-fated little headmistress number on me! And then I realised there were two good reasons why you should act this way! Was I not justified to wonder? I think I was. I am saddened that you wish an early death for me, but I can assure you I have no immediate plans of obliging with your rather unwholesome wish. Good wine prevents heart disease and good frequent you know what beats all exercises. A pair of strategically-placed Melons are also reccommended! oops sorry, I will drop it now, too easy! (I really guffawed at this, so thanks WGN for giving me such joy!) You are in the Land of Tease boyo and I can keep you there for as long as I want! So you better be nice to me, and no curses OK. Remember how Common was teased to death and that was because of simple, innocent expression of adoration by TLG? OK, now for a serious question. You know i said I will open a massive brewery in Hamr, inshallah? Could you tell me whether brewing as opposing to drinking beer is haram? I know the Drinker, Seller, Buyer, Carrier rule, but I can't recall ever seeing anything that says Brewing is haram! Now common sense will say there is no point in Brewing unless you sell the Product and at this point the rule kicks in, but what if I, for argument's sake, just brew it but don't actually sell it? Now this is a serious question and it is not loaded. Promise. I just want your opinion on the matter! Good-luck with the exams, and FG, drive very carefully (sorry too tempting!) Nour I have not read above Law, but I am fairly certain it would not prevent the formation of Religious parties. Please let me know what you find out, and if turns out I was wrong, I will apologise. Let me tell this as well. I have no probblems with Islamic financial laws, on the contrary I welcome it, and yes it was foresighted and highly socially advanced for its time. It is much harder to administer in the modern world, but the original concept of Riba for example is laudable for its anti-profiteering principles. Islamic social thought at its best. My disagreements with Sharia Law lie elsewhere. No point in repaeting since you already know them by now. Good call Nour, I am prepared to learn. And a belated Happy Hajj to you, I was impressed by the good grace you with which you responded with my provocation ( I can be a cantankerous old dudu sometimes)
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 11:25 am Galool The belated Happy Hajj goes to Nur not me(Nour). But still, I think he would not mind if I thank you on his behalf. I found him man full of wisdom who has least interest in arguments. Yes, they Law does not allow for religious parties to participate in political election. I was really surprised that you don't even know where your idea of anti-"Politicized Islam" come from.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 12:28 pm Mad Mac You have raised some valid points However (there is always a however, lol) you need to stop smoking whatever you are smoking…. Hey I’m joking relax bro I’m allowed a sense of humor! Seriously, lets not discuss Iran, as far as we (100% of Somalis and 90% of Muslims) Shiites do not represent Islam. The only reason I mentioned Algeria was to make a point about the self-evident bias in the west and (weirdos like our patronizing father figure who on the one hand defends Muslims women and white women and the next moment fantasies about their nipples up another mans nostrils?!…A classical example of a dirty, kinky and perverted old man) …..Back to my point about Algeria, I was not defending the Algerian Islamist or putting down the secularist. If the west was indeed a defender of democratic elections you would expect them to have voiced their concerns over the nullification of the Algerian elections. This did not occur which leads us Muslims to believe that justice is only for non-Muslims governments. BTW, my Intuition tells me, never expect fair treatment from The U.S government. I don’t support terrorist bombing of buses and killing of innocent people Muslims as well as non-Muslims. You state, ‘In Algeria it is a tool of psychopaths’ do you think the other side are not Psychopaths? I know enough to know that the present government in Algeria are not angels, actually they are the opposite. Who are at fault in Algeria. Personally I say shame on the Islamist for their part in the violence and in my mind there is no doubt that justice has not been served. Your biased analysis is very un-cool Saudia and Afghanistan both have their positive and negatives. Compare Afghanistan before and after Taliban and you will see many improvements. CNN (the media) states many things about the Afghanis and I refuse to buy into much of it of what is stated on the Tube. They try to sell us the Idea of surgical strikes last time, lol. Freedom of speak or the ministry of propaganda the lines of distinction are fading away rapidly. I am by no stretch of the imagination obsessed with conspiracy theories, however I have very low expectations for the wicked politicians. Afghanistan has many deficiencies; this is not the point. Our kinky OLD man objects to more than just the ‘spirit’ of Islam (interpretation) he oppose the letters of Islam. So, while you may find reason for concern about the application of Islam, old willy here, wants wine to pour from the taps of Somalia! Don’t confuse his objections with those off an open-minded individual such as your self. He has willfully picked an enemy. If a Muslim government cannot ban or comply with Islamic Rules why do you afford non-Islamic governments the right to ban cocaine and nudity in public? I will argue that “pluralistic democratic systems” is an Ideology in and off itself. To expect Muslims follow an Ideology not firmly founded in Islam is asking us to be Hypocrites or western (if pluralism is rooted in the western creed).
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 01:24 pm JB: <1) To my knowledge stoning to death is not found in the Quran (however I agree with it 100%) I’m just finding factual errors in your post. Also it is not wise to attribute something falsely to the Quran> Stoning is a sick and barbaric punishment for any crime, much less sexual misconduct. Jesus' exemplary compassion showed through when he told his companions to throw the first stone at the adulterous woman, if they were free of sin. But in any case, there used to be a "Stoning" verse at the time of the Prophet: it's reported by Umar bin Khattab, the second Caliph. In fact, he was quite insistent about its existence, and very worried that people would deny it and call him a liar. The verse goes something like: "The fornicators among the married men (ash-shaikh) and married women (ash-shaikhah), stone them as an exemplary punishment from Allah, and Allah is Mighty and Wise." Have you ever heard of it?
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 01:52 pm Nour Well thanks for telling me that. I am not very familiar with US laws, but I am surprised that religious parties are banned from the political process and I am sure there is more to it than that. Could you find out more detailed information? I am against banning things and that applies to all. My disagreement with Politicised Islam does not come from the West, as you just discovered, but from ME. I am all for Islamists forming their parties and participating in the political process, as long as they stick to honouring the democratic mandate and do not turn around and claim a divine right to rule. I am also surprised by the naivety of some Islamists here who take for granted that any Muslim country given the chance will opt for Islamic rule. In Egypt the Ikhwan have been around since the beginning of the 20th century but they never won more than 10% of the national vote. There are also Islamist parties in Tunisia, Indonesia and Malysia and they don't do so well either. Sadly, the rest of Muslim world is not democratic(even Egypt is not that democratic) enough to judge how the populace will vote. The only known occasion where Fundas were certain to win power through legal means was of course Algeria,(the Turkish Islah is not really an Islamist party in the true of the word) and the generals denied them that. Their subsequent reaction proved how unsuited they were for running the country.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 02:27 pm JB Your childish insults have been noticed and ignored for a while as I find you short on humour and big on dogma. If you are claiming that you do not fantasize about female anatomy, then you are either an outright liar or I strongly recommend you visit a shrink at the earliest opportunity. I am not sure by what you mean I "willfully" picked an enemy, unless you consider anyone who disagrees with your literal and unimaginative interpretation of Islam as an enemy. And FYI, it was not me who introduced the Nipples issue here, but WGN whose side-swipes at me you were so unashamedly applauding yesterday. I would love wine to flow in Somalia, and how would that harm you? Since you so love your literal Islam, it will only affect you if you drink it yourself, or get involved in the trade wouldn't it? So why deny those who want to take the risk of eternal punishment to make their choices? Why do you, only responsible for your actions in front Allah, take it upon yourself to control other people's behaviour unless you a large dose of control-freakery in your character? Jat, which causes untold physical and mental damage is OK with you, although it destroys the society, renders men weak and unable to support their families, and worse causes them to spend what little income the family has on this obnoxious stuff, yet your lot only rave and rant about Beer, which posed no threat to the Somali society when it was freely available there before the civil war. You do Islam no favour if you label everybody who disagrees with you as a hell-bound-kaafir, an enemy and a weirdo. You have some intellectual growing-up to do boy, and fast.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 04:10 pm Nour, here is an example; The following is a list of the party labels that appeared on the various state ballots for the Presidential, Senate and House candidates in the 1996 primary and general elections. I am sure you can find some religious parties here.... ACP A Connecticut Party AF America First AIP American Independent Party AKI Alaskan Independence Party AM American Party AMC American Constitution Party AMS Americans ATX U.S. Taxpayers Party of Arkansas C Conservative Party CNC Concerned Citizens Party CNJ New Jersey Conservative Party CP Colorado Prohibition Party CST Constitutional Party D Democratic Party DC D.C. Statehood Party DFL Democrat/Farmer/Labor Party FNP Future Now Party FRE Freedom Party FWC Francis Worley Congress GCN Green Coalition GMN Green Party Minnesota GRA Green Party of Arkansas GRC Green Party of Colorado GRN Green Party GRT Grassroots Party GRT-VT Grassroots Party of Vermont I Independent IAP Independent American Party IDP Independence Party IGR Independent Grassroots IPC Independent Peoples Coalition JPR Jobs, Property Rights L Liberal Party LB Looking Back Party LBT Libertarian Party LBT-I Libertarian Party of Iowa LEC Liberty, Ecology, Community LU Liberty Union Party MTX Mississippi Taxpayers Party N Nonpartisan NJI New Jersey Independents NL Natural Law Party NP Nominated by Petition NPA No Party Affiliation NPP New Progressive Party NTX New Hampshire Taxpayers Party O Other P Prohibition PAC Pacific PAT Patriot Party PC Politicians are Crooks PF Protecting Freedom PFP Peace and Freedom Party PPD Popular Democratic Party PRI Puerto Rican Independence Party R Republican Party REF Reform Party RES Resource Party RP Running on Principles RTL Right to Life Party SAR Socialist Party of Arkansas SAV Save Medicare SEP Socialist Equality Party SOC Socialist Party, USA SWC Socialist Workers Campaign SWP Socialist Workers Party TLL Truth, Life, Liberty TXP Taxpayers Party U Unenrolled UIP Unaffiliated Independent Party UM Umoja Party UN Unaffiliated USA Undauntable Stalwart Alliance UST U.S. Taxpayers Party VR Virginia Reform Party VTX Virginia Taxpayers Party W Write-In WC Working Class WTP We the People WW Workers World Party Galool, I was just about to tell JB how you sneak around and pick words from a sentence in one thread and replace it in another thread as a thesis....but since you just showed such an heroic self-defence performance I will save it for a later occasion...
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 05:34 pm Galool I was expecting that your "Free thinking" ability will, at least, let you examine things on your own thus coming little close to reality. Where did you get the idea that there is Democracy in Egypt or Tunisia. The only place that Islamist are ever allowed to have fair election was Algeria and that was banned after they won and it was the milatery who massacred the villagers afterwards. Something is telling me that you are getting your ideas not from YOU but from unreliable sourse. WGN It looks like you made up those Party names(just kidding). None of them is religious party.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 06:50 pm PG Long time no see!!. You must be busy with something. I see you found "verse". Tell us the whole story of your work. Yes, there is/are Ahadith( I have to check the text and their Authentication Rank) said that there was a verse whose text is abrogated but it's meaning is made valid as a Law of the Stoning(to whom it applies and when is onather story). This puts an emphasis(stamp) on this law(This Law almost became a verse in the Qur'an). Allah knew people like PG will be calling it barbaric that is why that extra emphasis was put. This Law is the used the most and always mentioned against Islam. They talk as though all Islam is this law, they take as a seperate entity without considering other facts and how frequently is implemented in the history of Islam. So tell us your whole research. I'm sure that was not all of it. What was that Jesus thing?
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 08:29 pm PG. Don't you think you ought to use an amplifier and announce your good points against the Quran through the forums?. Like you always do?. Why the law key cheap shots now?. And in the hard to find place?. Don't take advantage in the crowd and open a page for what you have if you have the gutts. Well, don't get too angry to inuslt Allah though. That would be uncivilized although that is your strong point along with your uncle galool here. Galool. You should respect the presence of your teacher here. You are a junior when PG is here. She has more pastes to do from ill-fated quotations. Give her space and keep a low profile.
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 08:53 pm Bro Nour. PG is referring to the bible John 8: 2 – 11 reads as: Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say? They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." I bet if I was a betting man that PG doesn't even understand what she read from her disbelieving masters' websites. As it goes though, any disbeliever would take pride in leaning on the flimsiest things if she/he thinks something to smaer islam will come out of it. PG: I hate cowardice, so why don't you just open a page for your "research" as brother Nour said?. You will say nothing new anyway except lies of old. So, why not go where space is available?. What do you say Sis(lol)?. I can tell Allah's mercy to mankind regardless of what they do when I see you in the forums bent on what you do. "10.60 And what think those who forge lies against Allah, of the Day of Judgment? Verily Allah is full of Bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful".
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| | Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 11:06 pm JB Anti-Western oriented Muslims (and you and I both know there are plenty who are not) LOVE to point to Algieria as an example of Western Hypocracy. The Western problem, vis-a-vis Algieria, is that there are no good guys there. The FIS are assholes, the GIA are assholes. Esssentially it's a country full of assholes. The "West" did not say much about the nullification of elections for two reasons: a. GIA would have been another regime similar to Iran in its relations with the West. Remember national interest always trumps all else. This is why Egypt and Jordan are more interested in trading with "those filthy Jews" in Israel than helping out the Palestinians who are poppers and have nothing to offer. b. The Islamists made it perfectly clear that this would be Algierias first and last popular election. Nothing (which includes pluralistic democracy) would be allowed to overturn Sharia law in the future once they took control. Of course, convieniently this also meant that the leaders who took control would also likely keep it themselves, but hey, I don't want to sound cynical here. Hence supporting the election results would have been supporting the destruction of democracy in Algieria. On the other hand, supporting FIS would have meant supporting the destruction of democracy in Algieria. You see, you simply had no good choices. So better to choose the one which is least hostile to your own interests. I don't consider my analysis biased - I call 'em like I see 'em. As for Afghanistan - I've never lived there. But all the information I have is that it sucks. I do not have a problem with the spirit of Islam, I have a problem with the letter of Islam. I too want to be able to get a glass of wine when I'm in Somalia (or preferably a beer - wine is OK, but I'm more of a beer kind of guy). You hit the nail on the head. Galool, like me, does not want a Somalia where Sharia is the law of the land. At least not the narrow interpretation of Sharia such as found in Saudi Arabia where alcohol is illegal (and I'm just using alcohol as an example here - we're talking a host of such things). Now, if Somalia were to hold a public referendum on such issues I might buy into that. BUT Here's the key - Somalia is not a Muslim country!!! Somalia is a country with a Muslim population. Not the same thing. Like most countries with Muslim populations, Somalis have almost always (except in the days of the MAD Psychopathic Mullah) had a certain tolernce for most vices in life. What I don't want to see happen is Somalia turn into Africas Afghanistan!!! No decrees that all Somalis must let their beards grow!!! You know what I'm saying. Freedom for individual practice? Sure. But let's not ram it down everyones throat. There are some Somalis that are animist and some that are Christian - they should be respected too. You know I had one idiot actually tell me that if you're not Muslim you're not Somali!!! This is the kind of attitude that Galool opposses. And I'm with him on it all the way. I have the impression you want Islam to dominate public life in Somalia - most Somalis don't. To be a part of public life - sure. But to dominate every aspect of it - no way. And that is the crux of the issue. Lastly - I lived in Saudi Arabia. It sucks big time!!!! I hated it. A bunch of facists in dresses (man they have lousy taste in fashion). The concept of live and let live just hasn't sunnk in to those motherfuckers. They hastle everyone for fun. Formerguest Is there such a quote in the Qur'an?? If there is I would like to know where it is?? Where Mohammed or Issa or one of the Prophets tells people not to be so didactic and to understand the spirit of the law, which is always more important than the letter of the law. Here is where I think many (certainly not even close to all) modern Islamicists fail. They focus on the letter of the laws in Islam, as if that were Islam, rather than on the intent. They tend to focus on the rules, as if by following the rules that in itself will provide on with reward. I do not believe that Allah is as interested in rules as he is in how people really behave, how they really interact. Certainly this example from John is a great one, where Issa is focussed not on the womens sin, but on the fact that everyone wants to put blame on her as if she has done something that they have not. When in fact we all make mistakes, which was his point.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 02:55 am Mad Mac. A simple answer would be yes and better(though not in the sense you expect word for word) since Allah teaches in the QURAN that he doesn't punish people for everything they do and if he did, no one would live on earth by now. So Allah almighty forgives a lot while people SIN a lot. Allah gives people opportunities to repent while people continue steadfastly in disbelief and so forth. "4.110 If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful". "35.45 If Allah were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His Servants". "16.61 If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour). As for the punishments prescribed in islam, they are there as detterrent. One should avoid doing the crime. There is social protection as well as an indivudual protection in setting up those laws. Islam cares about the good people as well as it protects the rights of the accused untill proven guilty. There isn't the presumption of guilt in islam at all. Secondly, Jesus peace be upon him wasn't able to forgive sins nor was he able to ignore the Laws of Allah SENT with Moses which he(jesus) promised to uphold except with few changes Allowed by Allah almighty. Just to make clear no one can forgive or ignore the laws prescribed by God. This discussion will spiral into many discussions thus will need more space. We Also need to keep track all the points so that we know what is and isn't logical. If I understood your questions correct, you were asking to find in the Quran the same verses I quoted up there from the bible to make a comparison and stress the compassion in the bible versus the Quran right?. You can't miss the psychology of a non-muslim all the time. The good thing though, Nothing comes to me as a surprise.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 08:57 am Formerguest Sahib, note I opened a new page because this one was getting too tough to open. I addressed it to Nour but feel free to jump in. Same same for everyone else.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 12:57 pm FG: As per your usual mumbo-jumbo, you fail to address my point, but instead attack me. Why didn't you at least try to reply to my initial point as Nour tried, and explain why the Qur'an is said to contain a verse by one of the closest companions of the Prophet, that was left out by Uthman and his cronies? And what was the point of the quotation from the Bible? Why grasp at a mere example, and totally ignore the gist of the posting? Because you don't have a clue, having been force-fed the myth about the perfect preservation of the Qur'an?
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 01:01 pm Galool, You have honored me with a response; I think I’m ready to die now. You can note and comment as you please or even ignore (I doubt you ignore any comments)…don’t do me any favors buddy To be honest I did not think you would waste your time reading any of my comments, especially seeing that none of them were addressed to you directly...I feel truly honored. You are right old man…I have my own set of fantasies...unlike you, none of mine involve other men. I am not surprised; a lifetime of perversion is known to dull the senses…If you keep this up soon your fantasies will involve creatures that walk on all four limbs. (Perhaps my warning is too late). What do you mean ‘literal Islam’ what part of Alcohol is haram in Islam do you image to be symbolic or metaphorical? Journalism only taught you to manipulate words. Your insult aimed at Fg and WGN quickly turned into an expression of healthy male sexuality. The olive branch and ‘protection’ to offered WGN were symbolic of what? A senile old man or multiple personality disorder. I think I will pass on the shrink for now. If you keep up the Psycho-Blubberer you learnt in journalism I may need to visit a shrink. Jad (khat) is not fine with me, you must be confusing me with another person, which is fine as long as you don’t begin to fantasies about me. You can disobey Allah and his sharia all you want….just keep your disobedience in the closet. Who said your drinking does not affect me and society. My age may excuse my behavior galool what is your? I cant tell a man with one foot in the coffin to, grow up! can I? PG; Nice to see you back, I have not read or heard of this matter…..I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. If this is a matter that you want me to look into please provide references (this and any other Islamic claims or comments you may make). Mad Mac, What makes us different than Americans is, we stand for principles and not self-interest. We have standards and values with which we govern our live and truth must be defended regardless of its affiliation. I understand from your post, ‘its ok to be a hypocrite provides it’s in our self interest’. Egypt’s hypocrisy is not valid example for Islamic justification. Your attempt at justifying the ‘west’s’ silence is a redundancy. It is not about the survival of democracy verses supporting democracy in motion, it should be about the basic freedom of people to choose Islam. If your claim is true I suppose the Algerian are too dumb to understand the consequences of their action. You could have claimed hey, we remained silent because we were looking out for your best interest, instead of half heartedly admitting to hypocrisy. Being accused of patronizing a nation is far better than being accused of hypocrisy or admitting to it. (Your school of thought is based on honestly and self interest sounds like yin and yang) You have a problem with Afghanistan or Saudi, lol, trust me amigo I’m sure the feeling is mutual. The question is are you guys ever willing to leave people alone. Listen to your self, you would like the to be able to drink a glass of wine or beer in Somali (this is one example of many thing you would like). My mother was there recently and if you were to drink in public or walk nude in public the hoards of Muslims in Somalia would drag your body and feed it to the dogs (if you ask me they are far less tolerant now a days than ever before). You claim, Somalis are not happy with Islam? Says who? Galool. The questions is a more simple one. Do Somalis (or Any other country) have the right to govern themselves according to the Islamic sharia? You talk about the right to live and let live, America has to learn this. Your acquisitions about Muslims not allowing people addicted the “a cold beer” to drink as being harsh or Brutal is rubbish. This comment can be made about any system of government. I cannot do tones of stuff in tones of nations this will leaves us all yelling harsh and brutal. Nations have laws and you must learn to live with them (our law is the sharia). You don’t like it too bad, I’m not happy with your disbelief; Somalia is a Muslim country but not and Islamic state. This is semantic I understand your point. Our argument is Always hypothetical, if you disagree with the letter and then I’m sure you disagree with much of the spirit because the injunctions found in the Quran and sunnah are not ambiguous. When in Somali, live as the Somalis. Fortunately for us this expression works well because our sphere fits well within the boundaries of most western sphere (perhaps the exception is not being allowed to marry more than one wife legally). In our visit to your land we don’t expect kufaar to change their form of government or morals. Come to think of it much of the laws in democratic western countries are supported in Christian theology. Fools like Galool do not have the insight to make the connection between laws in western nations and their eco in Catholic or protestant Ideologies. It is sad that we are discussing the very right of the sharia to exist or to be implemented. I thought we would be discussing the pros and cons in individual Islamic laws.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 01:28 pm FG I think what you meant to say was "please stop teasing me while I try to make an attempt at debating with this Nefertiti, Boadicea and Joan of Arc fighting amazon of a woman." I take my hat off to PG, and I would've taken off any bits of other garments for her but for the fear of scaring her to death! OK old boy, your wish is accepted, provided you behave yourself, otherwise you know the "end game" don't you? MM Right on Yank! Let me correct JB et al on one issue. I have utmost respect for the spirit of Islam as I believe I understand it better than they do. The basic concept was indeed noble, and was designed to improve the lot of mankind in that particular epoch. I also have no problems with the letter of Islam, apart from the fact that I don't believe Quran was dictated to the Prophet by some unseen and unheard Deity. But that is not, in many ways, as important as it sounds to the devout. I respect the Quran no matter the source for I can see what it was supposed to achieve. My real disagreement with today's Islamists lies in the way Islam is practised. On the one hand orthodox Islam is portrayed as rigidly individualistic whereby Allah-"Slave" relatioship is paramount, and on the other Islamists argue the imposition of Faith at Societal level. Every Afghan, Saudi, Iranian(note the Sectarianism in the lesser Fundas) who lives under Islamic rule will still be judged on his/her INDIVIDUAL deeds, not on the status of the political entity under which he/she was living under! So what is point in having Islamic States where Sharia laws are imposed on the population? The most common argument forwarded by the Islamist camp is that Islam is a comprehensive socio-political system. That is true to a certain degree, but it nullifies or at least devalues its claim to divinity. It is also at odds with the Prophet's own practice and behaviour. Muhammed was almost totally disinterested in State-building. Perhaps the clearest illustration of this is his failure to establish a system of succesion after his death. The results of this monumental "mistake" were devastating. Three out of four of his immediate and closest proteges, the Khulafaa, were murdered in the power struggle that followed Muhammed's death. This of course included Ali, the Prophet's favourite cousin and son-in-law. His Grandchildren were also put to the sword - and hence there are no survivors today who can trace their lineage to the holy Dynasty. All this tells us that Muhammed was only interested in the emancipation and the well-being of individual human beings, and not in building empires. Today's ambitious and megalomaniac(some want an Islamic world no less) Islamists could do a lot worse than follow his humble example.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 02:13 pm JB So you do have some sense of humour, sick it maybe but its there. Your delight at my attention sounds rather perverse and I hope you are not fantasizing about some old bones humping you! No hard feelings, but I am not interested. If you are that way inclined, I heard San Fransisco is a good place for young closet queens with overgrown moustaches, so you may take the Grey hound (or the brown one if you prefer!) and make your way there asap in order to satisfy your carnal needs. As for the Haramness of Alcohol, it is not as straightforward as it sounds. Alcohol was freely consumed by early Muslims. It was then initially banned ONLY during prayer times. The verse about "Alcohol and Gambling are acts of the Devil, so keep away from them" only came much later. So God changed his mind few times over this issue within few years! Not very clear-cut is it? And even then, only some activities relating to Alcohol were affected. Buyer, Seller, Drinker, Carrier - but surprisingly NOT the Brewer were included in the ruling, so Anheuser-Busch is safe from hellfire while old MM is going to fry for his bottle of Bud! Not fair is it? And what Quranic verse bans Jat, or is it your JBness'es interpretation of some obscure Hadith? Elighten us after you get refreshed by the hound! Good-luck!
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 02:48 pm Galool: You are truly wicked. And I say that in the nicest possible way.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 02:55 pm Hey guys, don't give Galool a chance to dig his dirty bag. That what enjoys the most.
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| | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 03:21 pm PG what happened to your "Research". Does it ended it in just claims with no reference at all. Now I see you behaving like Galool. I thought that you are more "scholarly" and "Scientific" than that. When you claim something, you bring some evidence and references(If, it's hadith, you bring it's rank, who narrated, what it's really saying where you get the hadith) and then you prove your point in objective manner. Didn't we talk about all this speculations, claims and are the way objective people do things. Or do you take it personal. Don't take it personal, I don't know you. You might be the girl I adore in my neighbor. Just be little bit objective and examine things independently and under the light of references and evidences.
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