     MAD MAC | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 04:41 am
Now, I assume from your statement that Jesus can not (or could not) forgive sin you meant he can not lay aside Gods judgement of said sin. Of course that depends on your perspective. If you believe (and I don't) that Issa and God were one, then of course you could conclude that Jesus could forgive sin. If not (the Muslim version that I subscribe to - although I think the Bible is more accurrate in its historical accounting, flawed though it is) then you could conclude that he could forgive sins against himself - as well as can, but final judgement must rest with God, assuming you believe there is a final judgement. In this case, from a Muslim perspective (since the Qur'an doesn't address this event we are forced to speculate) you could say that Jesus persuaded the people that since they were really no better than she, if they wish to carry out the sentence in accordance with Gods law then they must also carry out the sentance on themselves. In other words, don't be so judgmental. Since you are Johnny on the spot right now, can you tell me does Islam have a provision for dealing with a situation like this? I mean, under what conditions can I blow of Sharia if I'm a Muslim? If this exact set of circustances happened now, would a Muslim today follow Jesus prescripts as highlighted in John or would they stone the women? |
| Nour | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 06:15 am
MM
I think fg put reply to your question in the "Formerguest- I need your wisdom here" thread.
According to that Biblical passage quoted by fg, I think it's obvious that the guys had another purpose and were not honest in accusing the lady. They are provoking Prophet Issa Peace be upon him(again, according what written there. I repeat this). They certainly don't sound as his believers. No fair ruler(let alone a prophet of Allah) will punish that poor lady under that circumstance. |
| MAD MAC | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 08:53 am
Nour
That's not the point of the story - you are reading into it. His last line "go and sin no more" indicates he believes she did what she was accussed of. The point of the story is that Issa is preaching a philosphy of forgiveness - in the here and now. Not in the future, not concerning the day of judgement. He is saying "cut each other some slack." |
| Nour | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 11:37 am
MM
Yes the last part indicate that, although there was no confession mentioned. I wish I know what really happened. In the Bible there is no individually authenticated, critiqued and ranked chain of narration up to the Prophet Issa(Alaihi Assallam) and many things are changed, omitted and translated.It lost so badly it's textual integrity. No offence, but we can't really have full confidence to attribute what is mentioned in it to Prophet Issa (CS). But anyway, as prophet Issa(Pbuh) was sent as a mercy for the people and he was supposed to uphold the laws of Torah(with some abrogation maybe). Read the following verses about Issa(Pbuh).
61:6 " And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" " |
| PragmaticGal | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 12:38 pm
Mad Mac:
You can't really expect Nour, Fg and co. to understand that Jesus was making a point that's broader than the actual incident. Nour wants to know "what really happened" as if it actually matters. And he won't let an opportunity to trumpet the lack of "Textual Integrity" in the Bible, as if the textual integrity of Hadith/Qur'an is any better.
For the forgiveness issue, you're right: anyone can forgive a personal hurt done to them, but they have to be alive to do so: once I heard this Muslim man give this sermon regarding this woman who was stoned to death for committing adultery. It turns out the woman didn't committ adultery, and what the Imam said is that it doesn't matter, she'll go to heaven, it was an honest mistake, etc, etc. The thing is, you can't expect people to respect others' right to life, if they think there's another life waiting for them! So we wrongfully stoned a human being to death, so what? She'll get an express ticket to Paradise.
This kind of mentality lets you be judgemental to the nth degree: if you are right, you punished a wrong-doer according to the wishes of Allah. If you are wrong, it's a mistake and hey, it's not the end of the world for them, because there's the hereafter....
Ugh. |
| Nour | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 01:35 pm
PG
Hahaha. It that really you!!!??.
Is this an introduction of some show coming?
I'm glad now that you are defending the Bible(it's way better than Darwin and evolution). Now I have some hope in you
That story of the "Muslim man" is really awful. But there are more horror stories about "Muslim man" than that. I think that where the horror movies come from(did you watched "IT" . If you want I can tell you one worst than that.
But my dear sister that is not how things work in Islam. And that is not how someone who has hope in Paradise do things.
Me and MM were just having cool discussion here. So if you want to join it relax little bit. High speed leads to crash(that is why they have speed limit). And one last advice for my sister, Look down and take a glance at the reality!!!! |
| fg. | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 04:59 pm
MAD MAC.
Of course I don't belief as a muslim anyone is part of god. That is the christian belief of Unity with GOD inseparable thus three gods in one, one in three "TRINITY". That is where the jesus diety in christianity creeps in. In islam there is no such thing. Also prophet jesus clearly indicated that it is only GOD that forgives the sins eXcept when you harm someone. The person has to forgive you.
In the Quoted verses from the bible where PG read from christian websites critisizing islam as always for nothing(good thing she sought hope in religion now), Brother Nour put it straight to you. Since the intent of those who were accusing the woman wasn't honest and as the writer of the bible said "they were testing him", he couldn't judge. Prophets of Allah know more than the ordinary human knows because of their link to GOD where they recieve revelation about everything.
As we know, Punishments in the bible and Torah were cancelled and practiced no more. That is because ST PAUL the writer of the Bible said clearly that people didn't need JESUS'S AND MOSES'S TEACHINGS. So, he cancelled everything including CIRCUMCISION for boys.
I give you an example of punishments that usually anti-islam critics love to repeat all the time. IT IS APOSTACY. Did you know in the BIBLE one has to be killed if he/she goes out of CHRISTIAN FAITH Without NO CHANCES OR WARNINGS?. At least islam gives time to REPENT. Well if you didn't hear about it, You missed something .
The Bible clearly defines the penalty, which is an immediate death:
"anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. [Leviticus 24:16] "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." [Deuteronomy 13:6-9] The Bible also protects the priests, in a way where disobeying a priest is, yet, another crime which deserves death:
"The man who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God must be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel." [Deuteronomy 17:12] Observing the two passages from the Bible, it becomes apparent that apostasy in Christianity takes the following flavors:
[a] Discarding the Bible God. [b] Disobeying a priest--who is supposedly teaching the word of the Bible God. [c] Adding a sub-God (like Jesus) to God, as in the Trinity.
Here's what both passages convey in more detail:
1) If someone switches his religion, his family and friends should be the first to execute him before anyone else.
2) All Christians should be killed, according to the first passage, because Jesus did not tell them to make up a new religion called Christianity or worship him as a god.The Jews never knew that Jesus was a god, where the Jewish God clearly identifies Himself in the Bible as ONE IMMUTABLE God, where the Christians call Jesus a God incarnate and invented new gods by dividing God into three gods. Jesus told them that the 'Father' is his God and their God, but they forgot God and replaced him with Jesus. Jesus also told them that the Father is unseen. So, when they replaced the unseen God with Jesus, they made Jesus into an idol, and that makes them liable for the death penalty which can be found in their Bible.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." [Deuteronomy 6:4] "I the LORD do not change..." [Malachi 3:6] "You shall have no other gods before me." [Deuteronomy 5:7] Some Christians treat the verse in Genesis "Let US create man
in our image" as an evidence that God is not alone. Actually, this is a plural as respect as all Jews know. So, now they have a clear ME which refers to God alone.
"know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other." [Deuteronomy 4:39] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. " [Deuteronomy 32:39] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." [Hebrews 2:9] And no, the last verse does not imply Jesus by no means. If Jesus healed the sick, and gave life to the dead, Jesus clearly says that these abilities were given to him by God.
Martha tells Jesus: "And even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." [John 11:22] And Jesus tries
to show his people that all the power is given to him from God: "So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." [John 11:41-42] There is no way that Jesus can be God, when he is actually supplicating to God. Unless of course the mind is really clouded to think that Jesus was talking to himself. If so, John 11 shows that Jesus was weeping, groaning, and moaning. Why did he have to popularize his emotions? It's because that the
people can understand that he is not God.
3) The person is not given a chance to be advised to return back to his old religion--No pity is allowed, as the passages clearly states.
4) If the person had some explanations, he is not given the chance to speak about it. Listening to him is forbidden. Thus, he cannot defend himself in a court. There are no three wishes granted here.
5) According to 4, the person doesn't have the opportunity to repent and re-embrace his old religion once again in case he gets terrified.
6) The State should not be the one responsible in killing the apostate, his family and friends first, then the rest of the people. Talk about chaos.
7) If the person doesn't listen to his priest, he dies immediately.
8) Since the second passage does not mention or makes any exceptions for wicked priests, if a [insane] priest orders a man to kill his mother, and the man refused he is immediately killed. The passage does not consider that priests can be immoral; thus, if the society discovers the wickedness of the priest, no punishment shall bring back the ones who were affected and died due to disobeying the priest.
The Biblical passages regarding apostasy resemble a pure law which is explicit, clear, and ready to be applied. In fact, the law has been applied by Christians throughout the Dark Ages of the brutal Christian faith. Heretics were burned, Catholics were savagely butchered by the Protestants, scientist and philosophers were not able to question any aspect related to their scripture
without losing their lives. These are clear proofs that the Biblical teachings derived from the passages above lived and bloomed under the Christian Dark Ages; One wonders why didn't the Holy Spirit get involved.
Some missionaries might proclaim that these teachings are not used now. Such claims are useless and harmful to the missionary. By such statements, the missionary is honestly disregarding the teachings of the Bible. Therefore, the missionary will do a good job if he disregards the whole book as well. The Christians complain that these laws are for the Jews and not for them. This is contradictory to what Jesus taught, he said that he came not to abolish the laws. If he abrogated the death penalty regarding
apostasy, the replacing penalty must be present. When it comes to apostasy, the Christians have no law that replaces the death penalty. Thus, it is valid until the replacing penalty can be found.
The truth is that all thanks goes to the secular influence which knocked out the rulings of the Church. If it hadn't been to secular power and democracy, we would still see the faithful Christians burning and killing witches, apostates, heretics, and enforcing their beliefs on followers of other faiths. That has been eloquently supported in the Bible in numerous passages. Christians will really appreciate these passages:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. " [Matthew 10:34-36] If a missionary tries to twist the Laws in Deuteronomy, or claim that these Laws are not valid in Christianity, he should really pay attention to the following:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." [Matthew 5:17] "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you..." [Matthew 23:2-3] "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 5:19] "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." [Matthew 19:17] "Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?" [Matthew 15:3] When Paul was criticized, he diligently said:
"Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" [Acts 23:3]
In the Quran, The verse below, for example, tells us that people can believe and disbelieve more than once before God closes the gates of his forgiveness to them. Opposite of christianity which gives no chance of repentance.
"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief, Allah will not
forgive them nor guide them on the Way." [Quran 4:137] Furthermore: "How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (wrong-doers)." [Quran 3:87] The next verses clarify the penalty.
In another verse we read clear warning opposite of christianity which instant death:
"They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allah, of the angels, and of all mankind. They will abide therein (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while). Except for those who repent after that and do righteous deeds. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful." [Quran 3:87-89]
So, the apostate (GALOOL AND PG) can repent before they are punished by the islamic government(note: individuals don't punish and execute the law in islam if there is no islamic government),
The only apostate that faces death peanlty is the one explained the below verses:
"Verily, those who disbelieved after their Belief and then went on increasing in their disbelief - never will their repentance be accepted [because they repent only by their tongues and not from their hearts]. And they are those who are astray. Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers." [Quran 3:90-91]
Finaly, I would close my comment with this verse:
"O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion, Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His
creatures' needs, All-Knower." [Quran 5:54]
MAD MAC, This is only one penulty in christianity and there are alomst many others buried in the books and not practiced. And if we compare those punishments to islam, they are worse. I can quote the whole Punishments in the bible both in the Old and in The new god willing.
Tkae care. |
| MAD MAC | Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 09:54 pm
Formerguest
Here we go down that road again. First, you need to understand the Christian mind set is pretty diverse. You do have those that believe the Bible is divine. But by far and away most recognize what Nour said, that the Bible has errors of transricption, translation, loss and alteration which have taken place over the years. Therefore any one quote doesn't have much meaning and can't really be used to support argument. You have to take the general messages as a whole. I.e., it requires interpretation and the flexibility to disregard some text. Thus killing apostates, or even regarding apostacy as a crime, is no longer acceptable in spite of the printed word. However, you can take this one step further. If you read the Bible you will see the new testament and the old are clearly in conflict both in specifics and in tenor. The Qur'an, when you read it, actually falls somewhere in between. I believe the tenor of the new testament fairly reflects the principals of Issa better than the Qur'an - after all it is a series of first and second hand accounts and the Qur'an is written some 650 years later. You disregard that because you regard the Qur'an as divine. But if you look at it like an historian, then you have to concede that the Biblical accounting of Issa life has much more detial and also includes conflicting eyewitness accounts just like you get when you examine accounts from crime scenes taken by police. It actually lends credibility since clearly there wasn't much collusion. But it also, as Nour points out, makes it difficult to cull the facts from the fiction. HOWEVER, if you look at the overall tone, what Issa does consistently communicate is this message: Be tolerant of each others failings. Don't spend so much time trying to nitpick or punish. When someone wrongs you, forgive them.
In short Issa was the first documented peacenik. I do not agree that he preached the same thing as Mohammed, for clearly the tenor of the New testament and the Qur'an are not the same.
You are right about themany barbaric practices of ancient Christianity and Judaism. However, Christianity differs from Islam in that it is not the sum of "it's books." In fact, it's books don't matter. Christians are followers of a simple doctrine that says God came to Earth in the form of Jesus and he told us to love each other. That's it. Nothing else really counts. The books are largely superfluous - that message is all that matters. Some Christians will take this a step further and say you have to believe that Christ and God are one in order to be saved, but most disagree even with that and say faith in God isn't what it's all about. If you are righteous that is what Issa would have supported. You can't really compare Christianity with Islam because Islam is very much focussed on deeds, actions, lifestyle and Christianity is very much focussed on being spiritually pure. That's why it's so hard for you to understand why people would subscribe to Christianity - becuase you analyze the books and think that it what Christianity is - because that is what Islam is. |
| fg. | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 02:00 am
lool Mad, the books are really superflous. You know, you are funny and strange guy. I like your candidacy saxib. If it was a year ago, I would have responded to you differently. I think I understand you better now. Anyway, The diverse mind of christianity is what caused over the creation of seventy books of bible each one marketed as the best source of their religion. It all makes sense.
You said: " Therefore any one quote doesn't have much meaning and can't really be used to support argument".
Why not Mad?. When the bible teaches "By your own mouth I condemn you". Luke 19:22 The bible itself finds it fair that one can use it to prove a good point or a bad point. Of course that rules if one has nothing to hide. And always it is good to be fair.
"You have to take the general messages as a whole. I.e., it requires interpretation and the flexibility to disregard some text".
That is not what Jesus said peace be upon him. He said he was there to keep the Law of Moses. What you are saying comes from a different mindset than what he taught christians. It came from non other than the Man named ST PAUL who said: "[Gal. 5:4]
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE. [Rom 7:6] But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW". St paul taking and chipping away from the religion of GOD finally cancelled it completely: "[Heb. 8:13] Paul said, "In that He [God] said, "A new covenant." He had made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old: is ready to VANISH AWAY".
This is in complete contradiction of what Jesus peace be upon him said. Who is to blame then?.
you said: "If you read the Bible you will see the new testament and the old are clearly in conflict both in specifics and in tenor. The Qur'an, when you read it, actually falls somewhere in between"
MAD MAC, can you support this claim about the Quran falling in between?. Can you show us how it falls in between?. PG can be helpful since she quotes from christian websites who accuse the Quran of contradictions. She can butt in anytime pasting and copying from them.
You are both right/wrong when you said: "In short Issa was the first documented peacenik. I do not agree that he preached the same thing as Mohammed, for clearly the tenor of the New testament and the Qur'an are not the same".
First, what is right in your statement is that Issa Peace be upon him was priestly man and our prophet was diffferent and more like prophet Moses proof of which is in the Torah(Old testament) when it reads: "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers: I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the Prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Devt. 18:18-19).
What is wrong in your statement is about the tenor of the two books you are comparing, The new testament is called the new testament because they amended the laws of god themselves and discarded them most to leave only what suited their needs while the Quran is the same Quran complete an unchanged through out the years. It is for the critics to prove that. An open challenge anyone can pick.
You said: "HOWEVER, if you look at the overall tone, what Issa does consistently communicate is this message: Be tolerant of each others failings. Don't spend so much time trying to nitpick or punish. When someone wrongs you, forgive them".
Comm'on Mad, is that what christians do saxib?. Love thai enemy?. Turn the other cheeck lol?. I don't think so. Looking at history, the most barbaric acts of violence against people are committed by christians against christians, christians against jews, christians against muslims. Let us not blind ourselves to the facts.
you said: "Some Christians will take this a step further and say you have to believe that Christ and God are one in order to be saved, but most disagree even with that and say faith in God isn't what it's all about".
Mad, spare me the the defence of yours saxib, I know all christians subscribe to the trinity no matter what they call themselves and consider Jesus to be their saviour instead of ALLAH. Except may be one sect called Unitarian which doesn't amount to more than individuals. And anybody going against that belief is considered and targeted for conversion. Why spend millions of dollars to convert muslims around the world?. Because they need to be saved right?. Because they say Jesus is prophet and can't be worshipped right?. If christians put aside their dogma they would learn a lot from muslims and would find islam the perfect teaching of the COMMON GOD of All humanity.
Hey, I have to read for some math test, take care. IT has been pleasure discoursing with you. And don't forget to read your Quran. |
| MAD MAC | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 06:15 am
F.G.
There is a reason that secular thought, the reformation and rennaisance occurred in Western Europe and not in the Middle East. Think about it. Christianity is certainly far, far more flexible than Islam because Islam is centered on the Qur'an being divine. How many times have you heard any Muslim of substance say "well the Qur'an is wrong or no longer relevant on that point?" as I have heard Baptist and Methodist ministers say on several occassions. The Qur'an is the Alpha and the Omega of Islam, whereas the Bible is not the Alpha and the omega of Christians.
Now as for practicing their faith properly, well that's another matter. Take me for example. I believe Issa is a shining role model for myself, unfortunately I like to fight. I enjoy it. I love being a soldier and I'm a good one. I do it because I'm paid to do it and because I like it. But let's face it, this is not the path that Issa would have endorsed.
My Qur'an is at work right now, but after the holidays I will do some compare and contrast for you.
One last thought, If Muslims would put aside their dogma they would learn a lot from others (not only Christians). Remember the wise words of Khalil Gibran "Say not I have found the path, say I have found a path." |
| Nour | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 10:31 am
MM
There is hadith whose meaning is: "Wisdom is the lost thing of the Muslim, take it wherever you find it. You deserve it most" ( not good translation).
Islam is path that brings any good and protects from any bad. I can call it THE path. If any other path does the same thing then it's actually the same path. |
| MAD MAC | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 10:48 am
Nour
Ahhhh OK. I'm not sure what you were communicating, but it sounds good I guess. |
