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     | Unrecorded Date Waxaan articalka ka soo qaatay http://www.qoqaz.net.my Qaybta E-mailka. Read and think about it. My beloved Muslims of Chechnya, Salaam alikum : On April 26 it was reported in The Guardian that The UN Commission on Human Rights yesterday passed a resolution calling on Russia to investigate alleged mass killings in Chechnya. What a joke, its like asking the the Murderer to investigate his own crime and state if it had murdered or not - or asking a killer to maintain a systems of self-checks and balances, to ensure that it would behave in the future - what a farce and what an insult to the Muslim Chechens and indeed any Muslim with any sense and foresight. The resolution, presented by the European Union, also urged UN special investigators to go on fact-finding missions to Chechnya. Undoubtedly as before this will be another 'outing' for the media and yet another chance for 'pictures' and a feather in the cap of politicians of the NATO and UN countries. However were the victims of any other religion, the UN and NATO troops would have been there with their guns blazing in an instant, as in East Timor. It must be noted that the countries which are currently in US favour, Russia, and India, and the usual filthy rogues, cutthroats and hypocrites, dissented to this UN resolution. But notwithstanding all this farce and utter rubbish doled out by the UN Commission on Human Rights an the NATO and the Amnesty International, the burning question remains, What are Muslim Countries Doing About the Slaughter of their Brothers and Sisters in Chechnya ?? Has any self respecting Muslim asked why must we Muslims be governed and pitied by the same organizations whose interest is to destroy Islam ? Why is there not talk and action on the organization of a Unity of Islamic Nations ?? The Answer is the selfish, useless, worthless Munafiqs (Hypocrites) 'Leaders' are enjoying the soft life of luxury and are happy in the assumption that this could never happen to them. They call themselves "Secularists". When Muslims were being slaughtered in Bosnia, did the Bosnians ever imagine that these 'friends' would turn on them ?? When Muslims have degenerated to a level where they are Muslims only in name, then they should begin preparations for Allah's wrath. Allah has made mention of Munafiks such as these, as Allah will keep on giving them slack and let them fall deeper into their shameless ways, until, Allah will then pull and make them taste in hell, which they have earned. I swear by Allah their time is coming. May Allah protect and guide each one of you, my Brothers, and may he keep you united in your struggle for truth and Islam. Masalaam," [Brother TN, NY, USA, 02 May 2000]
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| | Unrecorded Date Musliman Besides cries of fire and brimestone what do you exactly propose. The only thing I got ou to 0f this diatribe was that you think the UN is a farce. Join the ever-expanding club who harbors that opinion. Another thing, why do you keep painting the war in Chechnya as some sort of religious event? It's not. How could you possibly identify with these people. It would be as if I sympathized with the Serbs during the war here because I'm from a Christian country - when we all know the US and Serbia have become intractable enemies because the US has defended Moslems in Bosnia and Kosovo. You aren't any closer to the Chechnyans than I am to the Serbs. The war in Chechnya has nothing to do with religion and eveything to do with geopolitics. Your Muslim brothers aren't rallying to the Chechnyan cause because it's not their cause - or as we would say "They don't have a dog in the fight." Everyone who calls himself a Muslim is not your brother - just like every European is not mine. I will remind you that it was the west who ended that war here in Bosnia. It is soldiers from the west who keep the peace here. Minus the "secularist" Turks, I don't see a whole lot of Muslims contributing troops or money to make a difference here or in Kosovo. It's easy to sit back and criticize, but if you don't participate you're arguments have no credibility. If you have so much sympathy for the Chechnyans then go join them. See for yourself what kind of characters their "Mujahadin" really are. Or at least offer practical suggestions about what to do there. All you posted here was inflamatory rhetoric, as if Islam and the West were at war. They're not - which is good for you because the Islamic countries would not win.
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| | Unrecorded Date ." Everyone who calls himself a Muslim is not your brother - just like every European is not mine." Inamal mu'miniina ikhwa.
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| | Unrecorded Date Musliman, what is the alternative?? Did the muslim community worldwide opted to establish a war crime tribunal??? Do muslims have a longeterm plan to offset the injustices being commited everyday by Christans and Jews. My brother, it is easy to point fingers, but what is plan B?? Look at how Ethiopia uses lies about Islamic 'fundamentalism' to promote its expansionist policy....did any Muslim country speak in our defense? Why not? Please note, I am not being polemical. I seek to understand.
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali Take it one step futher. The Islamic world doesn't need to set up it's own competing system, that won't yield much in the way of results for anyone. It needs to join the existing system at the Hague. Yes this requires compromist, it requires compromise for Americans too. We haven't really joined yet either. We too have reservations. But ultimately if the Islamic world wants to maximize its influence it needs to work with the West, and the East I might add, to develop new structures or enhance existing ones.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, the Quraan says muslims are brothers and you said they are not. which one do we trust. your ords or the Words of Allah?
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa You did not read what I wrote carefully enough. I said that everyone "WHO CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS NOT YOUR BROTHER." Not everyone IS a Muslim just because he calls himself one. There's a difference. I can do some Qu'ranic reading and claim I'm a Moslem. That doesn't mean I am one. Same same for the Chechnyans. They have a brutal, criminal culture. The vast majority of their "Mujahadin" violate the Qu'ran in the worst ways - rape, murder, etc. Now please don't start talking about what the Russians are doing. We're not talking about them and I didn't call them my brothers. We (the West) don't have a dog in that fight and neither do you. My words in this case did not contradict the words of Allah.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, T0 ME, ANY ONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM; THUS, MY MUSLIM BROTHER IN FAITH. If someone says he is a Muslim, I will not doubt what he says, because I'm not in his heart to check his belief. If someone says he or she is a Muslim(if he or she reads the Quraan or not), I believe him or her to be a Muslim, because I'm not his or her heart to doubt their belief in Islam. It does not matter if he is a thief or a killer. My own blood brother can be a killer, but he still is my brother. Just because a person is a killer does not make him or her a non-Muslim. So, when Allah says Muslims are brothers, I believe HIM. I do not believe the notion that says WHOEVER CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS NOT YOUR BROTHER.
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| | Unrecorded Date WELL PUT HURIWAA, ALL MUSLIMS ARE BOTHERS AND SISTERS AND WE SHOULD STICK TOGETHER AND HELP EACH OTHER AT TIMES OF ADVERSITY- NO MATTER WHAT NON-MUSLIM LIKE MAD MAC THINKS! WHO IS HE TO SAY WHO IS MUSLIM AND WHO AINT? WE AINT NO MIND READERS THUS LIKE U SAY HURIWAA IF SOMEONE SAYS THEY ARE MUSLIM- THEN THEY ARE. FULL STOP! NO BUTS
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| | Unrecorded Date Under that logic, any "Muslim" state who goes to war with a non-Muslim state automatically gets the endorsement of all Muslims world-wide. Regardless of the justification of the agrieved party. If that is true then why did the Muslim States of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and the UAE fight with the US in the Gulf War against "Muslim" Iraq? And why did the UAE and Pakistanis fight side by side with Americans against the Muslim SNA? Doesn't the righteousness of the cause count? Or do you just side with all the Muslims regardless. If that is true then you can hardly blame the West when it becomes suspicious of Muslims living there. Your loyalty instantly becomes suspect. If the US goes to war against Iran - should the US instantly suspect all Muslims of being terrorists and Iranian sympathizers? You can not expect the west to welcome you as equal citizens on the one hand and then make statements indicating that you are prepared to destroy them violently on the other. You are putting religious orientation ahead of all other factors in decision making and that it morally reprehensible. It is fortunate that the political leadership of Islamic countries is more reasonable in its approach.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, BELIEVERS ARE BROTHERS (NO MATTER WHAT). BELIEVERS CAN BE SINNERS, KILLERS, THIEVES, BUT THEY ARE STILL MUSLIMS. I'm NOT talking about who goes to war and who does not or who kills whom. I'm talking about and refuting the notion that says WHOEVER CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS NOT YOUR BROTHER. That notion of yours is WRONG, MAD MAC. You are WRONG when you said WHOEVER CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS NOT YOUR BROTHER. ALLAH, on the other hand, is RIGHT when HE said "Inamal mu'miniina ikhwa"---BELIEVERS ARE BROTHERS(MUSLIMS).
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| | Unrecorded Date OK, is a non-believer your brother? And what is the significance of brother here? Because from your previous writings it appears that you say all Msulims should "support" their brothers. What I am saying is that you should judge each individual and each country on its actions, not on its religion.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC I have never said all Muslims should "support" their brothers. I said that Allah said Muslims are brothers. A non-believer is not my brother. A Muslim is my brother. I'm not judging anyone. I'm JUST telling you that you were wrong when you said WHOEVER CALLS HIMSELF A MUSLIM IS NOT YOUR BROTHER, because ALLAH said BELEIVERS (MULSIMS) ARE BROTHERS.
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| | Unrecorded Date OK I can buy that. I'll admit I read into your comment. I would argue that all men are your brothers and all woman your sisters but I'm sure you're right that is not specified in the Qu'ran - though if I find it as I read through I'll be sure to let you know, Abowe. Now, for one last point on this topic. I quote from the great Islamic scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali: "In 5:85 we are told that the nearest in love to the believers among the people of the book are the Christians. I do not gre that this does not apply to modern Christians 'because they are practically atheists or free thinkers.' I think that Christian thought (like the worlds thought) has learnt a great deal from the protest of Islam against priest domination, class domination, and sectarianism, and its insistence on making this life pure and beautiful while we are in it. We must stretch a friendly hand to all who are sincere and in sympathy with our ideals."
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| | Unrecorded Date No problem, MAD MAC. Yes, I agree that the "people of the book" does not apply to the modern Christians and Jews of today. I have nothing against people who are not Muslims and worship someone other than Allah. I have many friends who are not Muslims. However, whoever is sincere and believes Allah (God) as One and Mohamad as Allah's slave and messenger is my brother/sister in faith.
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| | Unrecorded Date But what Abdullah Yusuf Ali is saying is that "People of the Book" does apply to modern Christians and jews. And he says it is Christians who are closest to Islam and that true Moslems should extend a friendly hand to all who are sincere and in sympathy "with our ideals". Not neccessarily with your beliefs. As you've probably figured out, Abowe, I am a believer in the line by Khalil Gibran, the Lebanese Poet and Mystic, who wrote in The Prophet (written in 1923) "Say not I have found the path, say I have found a path." The more I read the more I become convinced that all of the great book are correct and all are incorrect. Incidentally if you haven't read the book of Mormon I would strongly encourage it. You will see the Mormons have a lot of idea and beliefs that are very close to Islam. In fact, the only substantial difference I can find is that they believe in the trinity. By the way, saahib, I've really enjoyed this dialogue with you. You taught me to be a little more careful in interpretation of what I read. Mahadsanid.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac. You did your homework nice alright, but you have a lot to learn. So keep reading the Quran and take it in steps. Don't rush, because you need to understand what you read. I am sure you are doing a wonderful discovery of wisdom. That is why you quote the quotes to make your piece tasty. And it is that "tasty" to some point. Huriwaa has a point and he is right too. Often times a brother or a sister emotionally speaks out, you don't feel comfortable. I can sense that through your writings(If I am correct). I told you before, don't take things to heart. It is an expression of feelings and thought about the other needy muslims. All one can do is show his support through writing perhaps since there is no effective voice that speaks for muslims based on their islam and not countries or ethnicity. This is the advice given to muslims by their prophet peace be upon him: " but be you, O servants of Allah, brothers. A muslim is the brother of a muslim: he neither oppresses him nor does he fail him, he neither lies to him nor does he hold him in contempt. Piety is right here-and he pointed to his breast three times. It is evil enough for a man to hold his brother muslim in contempt. The whole of a muslim for another muslim is inviolable: his blood, his property, and his honor." related by Muslim. Looking at that speech you can tell how muslims are supposed to treat each other and take care of each other. Advises like that are many in islam both In the Quran and the Ahadith(The prophets speeches). Unfortunately many muslims either are ignorant of their religion or ignore it willfully and thus harm their brothers and sisters. I agree with you not everyone who says He is a muslim is a muslim. He can be anything but we judge by what we see and put our trust in Allah for what is inside the person's heart. Take care and there is a somali saying: "In five days you don't become a sheikh"religious scholar"". Meaning in short period no one has the previllige of giving strong opinions in religion. It needs time and effort to be very understanding of islam. So read the Quran and seek the help from your somali freinds if they know about islam. Take care.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, As I said, anyone who believes that God is ONE(without trinity) and believes in Mohammad as a messenger from Allah is my brother. The messenger of Islam (Mohammad-saw) said you help your Muslim brother if he is the oppressor and if he is obbressed. How can you help the Muslim brother who is oppressing others, you asked? By enjoining amri-bil macruuf(encouraging him to do good and justice) and wanahyi-canil-munkar(forbidden him to do evil and injustice). How can you enforce good and justice and stop the evil and injustice?---by using your hand if you can; by talking to him if you can not stop with your hand the evil and the injustice he is doing and finilly by hating (in the your heart) the evil and the injustice the brother is doing if you can not do the first two. You said the more you read the more you become convinced that all of the great books are correct and all are incorrect. But we Muslims do not believe that the GREAT BOOK OF QURAN is incorrect.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa (Does that mean anything?) Please allow me to quote once again. I know this seems ridiculous coming from me but bear with me here. Qu'ran 4:171. "O people of the book. Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not Trinity: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: Glory be to him: Far exalted is He above Having a son. To him Belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs." Now what this says to me is that while the belief in the trinity is incorrect, it is not irredemably so. Note the Qu'ran says "Say not Tinity: desist: it will be better for you." It DOES NOT say "say not Trinity; desist; or you will be damned ,etc etc..." you got the idea. It refutes the trinity in concept but does not damn the believers therein. The key phrase for me was "It will be better for you." i.e. it's better not to believe in the trinity but the trinity or belief therein is not the alpha and the omega. Other things are more important. Comments?
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, The trinity denotes the central doctrine of the Christian religion. It means that God "is three really distinct Persons,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Each of these Persons is truly the same God, and has all His infinite perfection, yet He is really distinct from each other of other Persons....These persons are co-equal, co-ethernal and consubstantial, and deserve co-equal glory and adoration, which the Church expresses in the oft-repeated prayer: "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost". The BOOK OF ISLAM(QURAN) which is never INCORRECT finds in the dogma of Trinity what every emancipated thinker finds on impartial reflection--an absurd legend, which is neither RECONCILABLE WITH THE FIRST PRINCIPLES OF REASON NOR OF ANY VALUE WHATEVER FOR OUR RELIGION OF ISLAM. When Allah says DESIST from TRINITY, it means DESIST from holding a doctrine so flagrantly BLASPHEMOUS and PREPOSTEROUS. It is better for them that they not believe and say THREE gods---when speaking and predicating of God Who has one (second or third person) to share His substance and attributes), because Allah is but the One God and to impute fatherhood to Him is most derogatory to Him. MAD MAC, you over looked or did not even see where Allah said to desist saying or believing trinity or you will be damned. "Assuredly those have DISBELIEVED who say: "God is the third of the three, whereas there is no god except the ONE GOD. AND IF THEY DO NOT DESIST FROM WHAT THEY SAY, THERE SHALL SURELY BEFALL THOSE OF THEM WHO HAVE DISBELIVED a TORMENT AFFLICATIVE" 5:73.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac wrote : "Now what this says to me is that while the belief in the trinity is incorrect, it is not irredemably so. Note the Qu'ran says "Say not Tinity: desist: it will be better for you." It DOES NOT say "say not Trinity; desist; or you will be damned ,etc etc..." you got the idea." Not only Allah refuted trinity but he called christians disbelievers and will be damned to hell for their lies against god that he took Jesus as a son And Allah almighty said: "Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three(in a trinity)." But there is no Ilah(God)(none who has the right to be worshipped) but one Ilah(God). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them"5:73 Not only Allah refuted the trinity in the above verse but called those who engage in it "DISBELIEVERS" and thus said "a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them". Also Allah said in the above verse "And if they cease not from what they say," It is a real threat from Allah for their polytheistic beliefs and lies against him that HE is threatening them. If Mad Mac thinks he can use he quran to defend trinity he has a lot more to read about it. It was only recently that he told us he was given the Quran and already is mastering it to a point where he thinks he can use it to argue with it. Missionaries do that but it backlashes at them and so it will do to Mad Mac. Mad Mac has to wait untill he finishes the Quran to see that it is a complementary book that translates each other and makes itself clear to those who read it. Pick and choose will serve nothing except the desire someone has. There is no room for discrepancy in the Quran for Allah says: "Do they not consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions"4:82 And both verses forbid the trinity. They complement each other enforcingly. And so it should be understood. And if that is not enough there are plenty of verses to show trinity is wrong and obsolutely the works of Satan. If Mad Mac Continues reading Verse 171 of chapter 4 to the end of 173 He would have understood completely that he missed the pointand this is how they read after the one He Quoted. "The messiah will never be proud to reject to be a slave of Allah, nor the angels who are near (to Allah). And whosoever rejects his worship and is proud, then he will gather them all together unto himself." "So, as for those who believed(In the oneness of Allah) and did deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards, and more out his bounty. But as for those who refuse his worship and were proud, He will punish them with a painful torment. And they will not find for themselves Besides Allah any protector or helper." (Did Mad Mac see this?) I guess yes but he ignored or may be not. "O! Mankind, verily, there has come to you a convincing proof(prophet mohammed) from your Lord, And we sent down to you a manifest light(the Quran)"4:171-174 4:171-174 should be read in unison to complete the aim of the verses and to make clear that they were directly talking to the christians specifically and to humans in general. And Mac can find his damning word he was looking for from those same verses. I think somalis should all learn their religion so that they are better equipped to situations like these and worse to come. Mad Mac, I am not objecting to your inquiry or freedom of expression but Would like to tell you that I will respond to what you write hopefully positive all the time. Using the Quran if I can. So hang in there tight we will all learn and live.
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| | Unrecorded Date I personally think you guys are mis-interpreting what the foundation of the trinity is. In the bible all of the aspects of the trinity flow FROM GOD. From one GOD. They are not three independents and Jesus (Issa) received the spirit of God from God. Jesus is born divine because God causes Marry to conceive without sex. Thus Jesus is the Son of God. But all the power of Jesus is vested in him by God. He is NOT a deity in his own right. He abviously holds a special place in Christian doctrine and Christians believe it is required to believe in him to be saved, but he is not a God himself. Read Mathew 3:16 and 3:17 to better understand this. Now, that having been said I don't believe in the Trinity nor do I believe all of the things that have been subscribed to Jesus in the new testament. They are too contradictory, they are eye witness (eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable) or second hand accounts, edited over the centuries. It seems to be he was a divinely inspired prophet with tremendous presence and that set off an entirely new doctrine. However, I do not believe the doctrine itself is ludicrous and certainly don't believe it is the work of Satin. The central theme of Christianity (not that they were always good about practicing it) is to love thy neighbor, treat others and you would wish to be treated. This hardly sounds like a Satanic theme. Can you guys tell me anything about what the Qu'ran says about the birth of Issa?
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, We are not talking about the foundation of the trinity in the Bible. We Muslims are talking about what the Quran says about the trinity. We Muslims do not believe what the bible says about the trinity. We Muslims believe that the doctrine of trinity is ludicrous. Looks like whoever created the trinity belief (Satan or Paul) has suceeded in misleading those who believe in it . The BOOK OF ISLAM (THE QURAN which is never INCORRECT) finds in the dogma of Trinity what every emancipated thinker finds on impartial reflection--an absurd legend, which is neither RECONCILABLE WITH THE FIRST PRINCIPLES OF REASON NOR OF ANY VALUE WHATEVER FOR OUR RELIGION OF ISLAM. The a doctrine is flagrantly BLASPHEMOUS and PREPOSTEROUS. If you take away trinity from the Christianity belief, there will be no Christianity that is practiced today in the Church (which expresses the oft-repeated prayer: "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost". But those who believe the trinity do not know that it is better for them that they not believe and say THREE gods in one when speaking and predicating of God. Allah is but the One God and to impute fatherhood to Him is most derogatory to Him. "Assuredly those have DISBELIEVED who say: "God is the third of the three, whereas there is no god except the ONE GOD. AND IF THEY DO NOT DESIST FROM WHAT THEY SAY, THERE SHALL SURELY BEFALL THOSE OF THEM WHO HAVE DISBELIVED a TORMENT AFFLICATIVE" 5:73.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac said: " Jesus is born divine because God causes Marry to conceive without sex. Thus Jesus is the Son of God." Let us look at that reason and whether it concludes the divinity of our prophet jesus peace be upon him. Allah cured already this wrong understanding and conclusion about the miraculous birth of our prophet jesus Peace be upon him by saying: "Verily, the likeness of jesus in Allah's sight is the likeness of Adam. He created him from Dust, then said to him "Be!" and he was".3:59 Now, to muslims and all those who have clear understanding and an open mind would say that the creation of Adam is more difficult than the creation of Jesus. Let us compare; Adam had no mother and father, He was the first human design of his kind. He walked, talked, ate, felt, etc etc. He was a mature adult who never went through the proplems of childhood unlike Jesus, who was born, raised , educated, cared for by his mother and his prophetic UNCLES. You see, every way you look at Jesus, you see a human being, normal. And If christians were fair, it is only safe to say that they should worship ADAM instead of JESUS because of Adam's unnatural creation. So if the point the christians always want to make is about the miraculous birth, Let them look at ADAM as ALLAH TOLD them in THE above verse. Who is more Puzzling IN CREATION?. As once co-worker responded to me when I told her the above saying, she went back with my question to her pastor and came back with a funny answer she said "IT IS FREE WILL THAT WHOEVER WANTS CAN WORSHIP EITHER ADAM OR JESUS". You see Mad Mac, this is how christians invent their won answers without giving much thought about them. Mad MAC said;"He is NOT a deity in his own right." Meaning that "All three Gods are One" inseparable beings. Well let us look at the bible and what it says. ""Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) Look at that people! It is funny how a god being in another god IS GIVEN AN OATH OF PROPHETHOOD. Funny isn't it. A god and a prophet in one being doesn't really make sense. Check this one out; "Mark 14:32: "and he (Jesus) saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.". Well, what do we say, the bible is clearly damning the christian belief. You see, how can god PRAY TO ANOTHER GOD?. No can do!. This one is good also: "Luke 6:12: "And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." . Good points to ponder. Jesus spends some of his time as all prophets of god do alone to worship his god. Why worship a god when you are a god unto yourself?. So "He is not a diety on his own" is really weird my freind. I think that will be enough from the bible. And about the Quran:. "Nay, but we have brought them the truth and verily, they are liars" "No son did Allah beget, Nor is there any Ilah(God) along with him;(if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be ALLAH above all that they ATTRIBUTE TO HIM" "All-knower of the unseen and the seen! Exalted be he over all that they associate as partners to him!"23:90-92. There you have them Mad Mac, the verses of THE quran IN WHICH allah defended HIMSLEF from these lies and wrong and weak attributes CHRISTIANS ARE CRAZY ABOUT. Allah is saying clearly that he doesn't need any one because all belongs to him. And if there other gods"three in one" why NOT EVERY GOD TAKE WHAT BELONGS TO HIM?. Or they would fight each other to defeat each other and the world we live in today, can't ACCOMODATE MORE THAN ONE GOD MY FRIEND. There would be chaos. Take care.
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| | Unrecorded Date To: everybody here! There is no god! The god you are referring too is nothing more then the eternal balance in life! If there is a god, why doesn't he interfene in human live? Humans are an destructive force that will destroy life on earth in the end! Before there was men, there was a balance! Between the animals, plants, insects: NATURE! Nature was in perfect balance, everything cancels eachother out! But then nature made a mistake, a undifined chemical, came in contact in the brain of an ape-like-creature: and so was the beginning of the homosapians! They don't life in harmony with the earth! They destroy plantlife! They use the lands, till there is nothing left but wasteland! They kill the animalls! for what? For survival! The eternal struggle for survival, that will destroy this earth in the end! IS THERE PROVE OF A GOD! NO! Only prove of the destructive force that is called: the mind! You all believe in morals, you define yourself in morals! You will do the right thing!?! But in fact you are driven by the primal needs: look at your self! You must eat, You must have this, you must have that! In fact you only need a few things to survive! But look at you, you have a computer, you probally have cd's, videotapes! You don't need those things, you just want them! THE WANTING! My conclusing is this! People are a destructive element, and they are self a victim of this! Religion is a way of dealing with life, cuzz the early elders of the human kind have seen that life is pointless! Too save them from a fate of pointless existance, they created religion! So that they wouldn't destroy more things then neccesary! Unfortenately it faled! Most of the earth is already destroyed! You are all Muslims you only fowed to save your brothers but not the earth were you live on! BEWARE!
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| | Unrecorded Date You know the big difference between Western thought and Islamic thought - flexibility. There is a lot of room for interpretation in the Bible and I don't think any serious intellectual would say "The Bible is never incorrect." I would never believe any Book was devine. The basic teaching and the guiding ideas sure. But not the verbatim text. Now I'll bet you if I work at it I can find inconsitencies in the Qu'ran. That's because language is an imperfect medium for expression. And that is why I would take umbrage at the idea that "The Qu'ran is never incorrect." Let's take the issue of whipping. Come on now. This is ridiculous. If I take the literal translation of the Qu'ran then my sweet girlfriend and I should be whipped 100 times. And since the list of fornicating Somalis is VERY long, I would have a lot of company. By the time we finished the punishment of everyone who'd ever stolen or had some sort of illicit sex half the population would be dead or maimed. Who would want to live in such a society where those kind of laws dominated. I remember when I was in Somalia a bunch of Somalis had accused a woman of adultery (don't ask me what kind of court there was) and they were tearing her clothes off and throwing stones at her. We almost had to kill some of them to break the fiasco up. It was barbaric. Now maybe this isn't the law in the Qu'ran, as Bashir has told me I'm really a novice here. But a lot of Qu'ranic message seems overly harsh to me. Anyway, I'm still reading brothers, I'm still reading. I like the way it reads. Pity I can't read Arabic, I'm sure the poetry is lost in translation.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAC MAC, I believe the Quran is divine and the Quran never is incorrect. The Quran was not revealed to please your society and my society. The Quran is a law of Allah. If you think the Qu'ranic message is harsh and poetry, then take it or leave it. Many societies in different races accept and believe the Quran to be divine and correct. Many Westerners also accept and believe the Quran to be divine and correct without contradiction and inconsistencies.. Since you would never believe the Quran to be divine and since you believe that "The Qu'ran is incorrect.", then that is what makes you and I not brothers. Btw, MAC MAC, what are you(Christian or Jewish)?
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, this is for you and your atheist friends: "The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I always do my best to be a good human being , Sir." " You would help a sick and maimed person if you could ...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" [No answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them?" [No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerised. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" [No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" [Pause]. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" [No answer] "Do you believe in God, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. You have never seen God, Have you? " "No, sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard you God?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" [No answer] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please." The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?" Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester... "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understand them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The submitter student pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The student continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? Islam which means Submission to the will of God , tells us it is to see if each one of us will, choose good over evil." The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the student replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical debate." "So you don't accept God's moral code to do ... what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The student remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent. The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen, molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Muslim student shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa Touche!!! my friend. That was brilliant!!! It is almost the same argument - in long form - that Steven Hawkings uses to explain why there is a God. I, of course, subscribe to the simple Hawkings version which is nothing comes from nothing therefore something had to at least initiate the creation of everything. Anyway, I concede you could be correct, that God's plan for the way man should live is not the same as MACs plan for the way man should live. But you know what bothers me? God gave me a mind, an intellect, and also a moral compass. When something is wrong, I can feel it in my heart. I know in my gut when I'm doing something I shouldn't be. So when those people were trying to kill that woman, I knew it was wrong. I didn't need to consult a book or anything else. And I believe that God made us all that way. We know what's right and wrong. We can feel it. The same way a mother instintively suckles her children. Those who do wrong know it is wrong, that just don't care - or they don't care enough to do what's right. Now what would you do if you were me? If you pray to God at night and he tells you one thing do you believe what you think God is telling you? Or do you follow a book that, no matter how devinely inspired, was written by men? Also, I still think we're borthers. And I will continue to treat you as one. Hopefully I will get to meet you some day. I didn't say the Qu'ran is incorrect per se. I would say that verbatim there must be incosistencies because that is the limitation of language. But I understand that without total submission to the book from your perspective I am gaal. Lastly, and lets keep this going because I'm learning more every day but I got to go to bed, I am Moslem, Chritian, Jewish, Wiccan and probably other things too. I never reject anything in its totality nor have I yet to subscribe to anything in its totality either. I am a monotheist but that's the best I can do. Nabad Gelyo Abowe - Til later.
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| | Unrecorded Date This goes out to the eithist: Provide an answer to these questions; 1.Something from nothing? The "Big Bang", the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode? We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder. How reasonable is it to assume that a "big bang" explosion produced the opposite effect -increasing "information", order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars and planets, and eventually people? 2.Physical laws an accident? We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existence of computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident? 3.Order from disorder? The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy. How can this be? ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the Second Law. We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly the application of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist's problem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law. 4.Information from Randomness? Information theory states that "information" never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendous increase in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce their own actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might produce the string "dog", but it only means something to an intelligent observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information. 5.Life from dead chemicals? Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself? 6.Complex DNA and RNA by chance? The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time? 7.Life is complex. We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being. 8.Where are the transitional fossils? If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only a small number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actually show all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species? ASIDE:Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true transitional fossil should be intermediate in many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too! Many evolutionists still like to believe in the "scarcity" of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, the chances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!. 9.Could an intermediate even survive? Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don't forget that "natural selection" is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited to either its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved? ASIDE: Certainly a "light-sensitive spot" is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience. 10.Reproduction without reproduction? A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided) series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are "selected" for, keeping the "better" changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this to happen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient! ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to "abiogenesis" does NOT address the problem. To assume existing reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is a HUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions. 11.Plants without photosynthesis? The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability? 12.How do you explain symbiotic relationships? There are many examples of plants and animals which have a "symbiotic" relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain this? 13.It's no good unless it's complete. We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed? ASIDE: Note that even a "light-sensitive spot" or the simplest version of any feature is far from a "one-jump" change that is trivial to produce. 14.Explain metamorphosis! How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the "mass of jelly" (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn't it appear to be "stuck"? 15.It should be easy to show evolution. If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced ... more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it? ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change to prove that true "macro-evolution" is possible. A higher-order change, where the information content of the organism has been increased should be showable and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example. 16.Complex things require intelligent design folks! People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life's experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, not matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a "robot" - it is called an "ant", and we squash them because they are "nothing" compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation?
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac. When you wake up remember to ask yourself where was your soul during your sleep. Or think over how you were both alive and dead at the same time?. Because Allah teaches in the Quran: "39.42 It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect." Reflect on that would you?. You could be easily dead overnight and regret that you haven't been obidient to your creator. Or that you have been too smart for him thinking his decrees of punishment is wrong and awful. Well, I know you expalined that to us but you need to explain to Allah before long. Hope you read all the Quran slowly and pacingly so that you grap the wisdom from it. "30.23 And among His Signs is the sleep that you take by night and by day, and the quest that you (make for livelihood) out of His Bounty: verily in that are Signs for those who hearken." So be among those who hear to their lord when he gives them examples okey. It is not a hard thing to do if Allah willed. And take care.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, For me, although my gut feeling (my inner voice) tells me that there is a God and what is right and what is wrong, I still need to consult the Quran (which is never incorrect). If I did not need the Quran, Allah would not have revealed the Quran and He would not have sent to us the last prophet of Allah (Mohammad). We Muslims believe that the Book (the Quran) comes from Allah. It is a Book divinely inspired by Him to Mohammad and the Quran is not a creation of men. The Quran tells us (Muslims) that we Muslims are brothers in faith onto one another. Anyone who does not believe the Quran is not a Muslim; therefore, he is not in the Muslim brotherhood. But the Quran also tells us that we Muslims should treat a non-Muslim person respectfully as long he does not wrong us and as long as he respects us. However, there is no such thing in Islam as turn the other cheek. If someone wants to join this Muslim brotherhood, he is welcome, but he needs to accept the totality of the Quran and It's correctness. If he does not accept the totality of the Quran and it's correctness, I would not call him my brother, because a Muslim person is not a Muslim while at the same time he is claiming to be a Christian, Jewish, Wiccan. If someone wants to join the brotherhood of Islam, he should reject anything that disagrees with the Words of Allah (The Quran) and he needs to accept Mohamad as a messenger from Allah. If someone wants to have different(contradicting and opposing) faiths and beliefs, while at the same time doubting the correctness of the Quran and while at the same time accepting what contradicts the Quran, he chose himself to be a gaal(not a Muslim). Therefore, he is not a Muslim brother. A Muslim broter rejects anything that disagrees with the Quran. To be a Muslim, a person has to say and believe this KALIMA (SHAHAADA): LAA'ILAAHA ILA'LAAH. MOHAMMADAN ABDAHU WA RASOOLAHO. There is no god, but Allah (He has no son or is He three in one) and Mohammad is His slave and messenger.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir Maybe Allah doesn't will it. Maybe he doesn't want me to be saved at the time of his death. I can not answer that. I can only say that as sure as Huriwaa is certain that the Qu'ran is never incorrect, so am I sure that my intincts are never incorrect. They have never let me down. Huriwaa I understand you point about total submission to the Qu'ran. But what of people who have never heard of it. Lots of people have had no exposure to the Qu'ran whatsoever? What of them?
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| | Unrecorded Date to muslimman What a funny somali proverb sayS (GEED WALBA IN GUBTAA WAY HOOS TAAL ) another one says (TIISABA DARYEELAA TU KALE KU DARA) I hope you understand what I mean, look you home land SOMALIa, whats happeniing every day they killing each other and they are muslims. I say chechneya, chechneya, and some others they talk other countries, why you dont tell your selfs true. Sorry bro I know you saying he is christian he defending christianity, I amn't defending but I know that we li8ar our selfs. Finally forget russia and uerope, muslims and christians, lets focus our mother land. bye
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I do not know about the people who have never heard of the Quran and what will happen to them when they die. I do know that you have had exposure to the Qu'ran. If God doesn't want you to be saved at the time of your death, that is because you refused to give up your incorrect intincts which will let me down if you do not save yourself. You also refused to accept the Oneness of Allah, His Book(totality) and His messenger Mohmmad.
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| | Unrecorded Date To: Bashir Abdi and all of you! You want a discussion about religion! First of all, I know a lot of religion and of science but I do admit that I do not have all the answers! Human science is yet to primitive to explain and understand everything. And to admit that you know the answer to anything is just plain stupid! Religion can be used to overcome this stupidity: believing in a truth that somebody else has written. But this is no answer! Why would you believe in something that somebody else has written! No disrespect intended, but he easily could have bin some idiot who wanted some attention. Just as Mohammed there are other so called Messiahs: Jesus, Boeddha, and mozes. Jesus, Mohammed and Mozes believe in one god. Boeddha doesn't! In my view Boeddha has a correct few of the world and it's existence! I just can't blindlessly belief in one GOD! Second I want to say this: Religion has bin used too often as a tool of destruction! Look at the Spanish Inquisition, look at the wars that you fought cause somebody else believes something else. Look at the crusades, look what has bin done to the Jews! Is this what you all call religion. No acceptance of on and other! Accept Hinduism and Buddhism have acceptance to all religions. Third: Too who ever thinks he is a wiccan. Please do your homework! It is not a religion it is a way of live with the planet! Wiccans are associated with witches, but wiccan do not have any powers at all! Just a popular belief that was thrown in your minds by the fake ass serie: Buffie the Vampire Slayer and all these other crap shows! Now the answers to your questions:
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad mac. You need a SCHOLAR to answer your question of "What will happen to those who don't hear the Quranic message". If I see a knowledgable scholar, I will ask him for you.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE (The atheist), "If the Qur'an were not true then this would prove that it is not the word of God. However, there is not a single claim made in the Qur'an that has been scientifically and objectively refuted as false. Quite the contrary, there is not one, but tens of scientific and historical statements to be found in the Qur'an which have just begun to be scrutinized by modern scientists and historians and which, according to many non-Muslim world renowned, pioneering scientists of the United States, Germany, Canada, Japan, Taiwan, India and many other nations, could not have been known by an illiterate man of the desert fourteen hundred years ago. They themselves have only discovered these facts through the use of microscopes, telescopes, satellites, and various other scientific equipment that was not available to Muhammad (pbuh). These statements range over the fields of Embryology, Oceanography, Geology, Astronomy, Anatomy, Physics, and many others. Some of them have only been discovered during the last twenty years. These facts could not even have been copied from the Bible because many of them are either completely missing from the Bible or totally oppose similar verses in the Bible. If Muhammad (pbuh) had plagiarized the Bible, then did he also selectively correct incorrect scientific statements in it? It is also interesting to note that Christian scholars readily acknowledge that the Bible was not translated into Arabic until at least the eighth century AD, long after the death of Muhammad (pbuh) in 632C.E. You may get a side-by-side comparison of the Biblical vs. the Quranic versions of many scientific facts by referring to Dr. Maurice Bucaille's books: "The Bible, the Qur'an, and Science." http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/
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| | Unrecorded Date Extreme says: "First of all, I know a lot of religion and of science". Your answer is: Let us see what you know about anything. Extreme said: "but I do admit that I do not have all the answers! Human science is yet to primitive to explain and understand everything." The fact of the matter is, this has been the excuse of all atheists throughout the 19th century upto now. When will they show us the facts and stop being mediocres?. Again, science will always be primitive given the fact that there will always be discoveries of new things around the universe. "2.164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" When we(muslims) read verses like that in the Quran in which Allah intorduces himself to us, we reflect upon them and give it some serious thought then declare our beleive in him without any ifs and buts and ands. Allah is the one who starts all the proccesses and is able to repeat them your creation being among them. "10.4 To Him will be your return- of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He Who beginnes the process of creation, and repeates it, that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness; but those who reject Him will have draughts of boiling fluids, and a grievous chastisement , because they did reject Him." Extreme says:"Accept Hinduism and Buddhism have acceptance to all religions". You see, if someone is blessed with intelligence and aptitude, he can't in his lifetime accept to pray to a stone and a stutue that doesn't hear, respond or can't get back something that was snatched from it by a fly. "22.73 O men! Here is a parable set forth! Listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, you call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!" You see my extremo freind?. You claim to know of science and a lot of religions yet you promote something stupid and you have your example in the above verse. You want us TO PRAY to something THAT DOESN'T CREATE nor Is able to do anything for itself. EXTREME SAID:" Religion has bin used too often as a tool of destruction! Look at the Spanish Inquisition, look at the wars that you fought cause somebody else believes something else. Look at the crusades, look what has bin done to the Jews! Is this what you all call religion. No acceptance of on and other!" This doesn't disprove the existance of GOD. It is a decision people make for themselves and they will be rewarded for what they have done in their lives. I don't see anything wrong with human conflicts. It is their nature to fight over their interests and difference. "10.19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, their differences would have been settled between them." You see extremo, that is what we learn from the Quran. The wisdom behind all proplems and events. Allah gave us respect when he made us a thinking human beings that can decide for themselves. Use your brains and you will see that nothing is done without any effort. Why didn't your message WRITE ITSELF ON THE NET WITHOUT YOUR INFLUENCE?.
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| | Unrecorded Date Estreme Welcome to the conversation Abowe. Everyone here is a really tolerant. But they are also true believer - hey ain't nothing wrong with that. Huriwaa I do not believe in the trinity remember. I am only explaining what Christians believe. That's all - I grew up in a Christian family and a very religious one at that. You might say I'm the black sheep of the family (metaphorically).
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, Yes, I remember that you told me that you are, among other thing, a Christian too and that you also have doubt about the Quran being totally correct, so you refused to give up your incorrect instincts; you will also let yourself down in the same way those who also call themselves Christian are letting themselves down, because they also, like you, refused to accept the Oneness of Allah, His Book (totality) and His messenger Mohammed.
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| | Unrecorded Date 1. First of it wasn't an explosion but it was an implosion, followed by an explosion! Just as I before said, everything is in balance. Even the balance itself has a period of destruction, to equal it out: the big bang! The law of physics that no energy is ever lost backs up the argument! The energy will always find another way to exist! This energy will always be everywhere, in you and me and in the galaxy! In the beginning pure energy later, it formed itself in molecules and atoms. But it will always exist in one way or another. 2. These Laws of physics are no laws at all. Just as ordinary laws they can be broken! Many theories of Einstein are already discarded. These laws are dictated by human's cause they cannot breach them, but this doesn't mean they are laws that you must abide. These laws are used to define the unexplained. So you see that they don't have to be created by an almighty person. Also these so-called laws have all some kind of equal that contradicts them or explain that there is an eternal balance between everything. 3. Your law also says that energy must form somewhere. Something will be destroyed to create this energy, which will form this order in this system. So you see Destruction and Order cancel each other out: balance! And about living organisms. They are open systems, but they need to eat! The eating process will destroy something and then later will form energy that will create something in the organism! Even the fact that they are born and that they will die says that the balance is also in here! 4. Information is nothing more then some facts! Facts that we humans see as information. The Buddhists believe that there are no collective things. They see not a car, but only the components of the car! But to explain this I must go with this. When a single cell organism was randomly created. It adapted itself to his environment. And so began live! Creatures adapt to its surroundings! If they cannot do this they die! You see this all over the planet now! Only the animals that adept will survive. They give feedback to the environment and so create their own 'Information', to survive. 5. Yes this would be reasonable because… Look at up to the sky, see the enormousness of it. Now amplify it as much as possible. (Use your imagination.) Now if the chance wasn't zero, and if the universe is so big, so great! How can you dismiss that there isn't any chance of live creating itself. (The reason that live originated on earth is because the circumstances were ideal. The sun was just the right distance, there were the right materials, THERE WAS WATER, and so on and so on. 6. Because life needed it to adapt to his environment. And so it created it! 7. Nature formed itself. If somebody cut your hand of. You must live with one hand. You ADAPT. 8. You must understand that there are transitional fossils because evolution happens not over time but it just happens by a birth. Look at all the deformed creatures that just suddenly appeared. A pig with eight legs, a chicken with two heads. Some of these creatures were better then there predecessors and passed their genes on. And cancelled there predecessors out. Also many fossils are lost over time, the fossils of important creatures are rarely founded. 9. Light is a part of the environment. Better to use it to waste it. And also look at creatures at the bottom of the ocean. They live without light. But their predecessors were from a surrounding with light. They evolved in creating there own light. An intermediate is a perfection of the one before. They are better but not the best. So the adapt. 10. Life can't reproduce it self by it self. The environment first created more creatures. But when these creatures adapted more to their environment. Nature couldn't replicate itself. So for the fight of survival they multiplied by itself. To explain about asexual reproduction. If creatures were to create another for the survival of the species they wouldn't do it, because there isn't anything for them in it. But if creatures get some kind of pleasure out of it, they would do it. Look at the humans, they have sex because it is pleasurable (we are still animals). Because we have a mind we do sometimes have sex to have offspring, but not always. It's all in the wanting, the eternal hunger of something. 11. There are plants that survive without photosynthesis. In the Antarctic/ Zealand, there is a lake (I don't know precisely were it is) were plants survive without any sun light. They survive through the exhaust of a Vulcan, inhaling or whatever some bacteria to consume, and to survive. (Adaptation to the environment.) 12. Adaptation to the environment. They survive better with each other. Better odds. Parasitic relations are also because of better relations. The one benefits from the other. 13. Random mutations! Who pass their genetic material through to the species. The question that you ask is flawed. If you are a child and about six years old, and you are not complete. So why must you live. That is the same question that you just asked me. 14. Sorry but why would you only have sexual appetites in your teens, when you could have them when you are a small boy/girl? Because you are not ready! 15. It's all in the environment. If the fruitflies were exposed through out there live for a couple decades to radiation levels above normal. They would adapt to better suit their environment. The reason why no creature is evolving now is that we all are perfectly suited for their only environment. You will probably not live to see the change of the global warming. Me too, but the people will change. 16. There are already simple robots on the market who explore the ground have legs and are from metal. They are formed after insects. They have even a spinal court formed by transistors. They only need to design the robots to find an energy source. I agree we designed them, but they aren't organic and aren't adapted to the environment, because they are not created for this one. Nature and the environment created us.
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| | Unrecorded Date to: Bashir Abdi. You say that Buddhism and Hinduism is just praying to a stone. Your wrong. Hinduism originated in Europe by the Arians, then the religion travelled over to India. There it formed to it full potention. I also do not belief in Hinduism because Hinduism is a combined mix of almost every religion on earth were it came in contact with. Even the Islam. Buddhism is a true belief. Here they don't worship anything only yourself. They accept that there is a god, but they don't prey or anything. It is not even a religion more a way of life. It's al about the endless circle of birth and death, that is caused by Kharma. Only way of getting through this endless cicle is the understanding of life itself. It is a honourble way of life. Respecting al life. You also say that there are facts in the Koran that science is only now revealing. But your wrong, for the Koran. There was a Roman empire and for that a Greece empire. In Greece about 1000 years for The birth of Jezus they had already invented these things that you now read in the bible. You did not copied it from the bible. Ha ha, the bible. Don't make me laugh, but from a combanation of facts that has passed through the Roman empire to the Arabic lands. The arabians were in there early days explorers. They had many maps of lands that were unexplored and they had many medicens. All from Greece. The arabians of course invented something for them self, but not much. You say your open to anything but you aint open to other religions. It's a pitty.
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| | Unrecorded Date Extreme: Someone said: "Most people accept everything they hear from scientists as strictly true. It does not even occur to them that scientists may also have various philosophical or ideological prejudices. The fact of the matter is that evolutionist scientists impose their own prejudices and philosophical views on the public under the guise of science. For instance, although they are aware that random events do not cause anything other than irregularity and confusion, they still claim that the marvellous order, plan, and design seen both in the universe and in living organisms arose by chance." I agree with that to the letter and it is obvious that evolution doesn't enjoy any support at all even by its propenents. It is just a fake ideology, COMMUNIST BELIEF disguised as a science. The main point they want to prove is NO GOD and NATURE created everything. But is that TRUE?. "If the same scientist were to find three bricks resting on top of one another while walking along a flat road, he would never suppose that these bricks had come together by chance and then climbed up on top of each other, again by chance. Indeed, anyone who did make such an assertion would be considered insane." So why not let nature write the letters for you and expose your opinion to us if you are insane. As you wrote your letters down here and spent time on the PC, So is everything you see was designed and created by GOD. "How then can it be possible that people who are able to assess ordinary events rationally can adopt such an irrational attitude when it comes to thinking about their own existence?" Aha! this apes me too my EXTREMO freind. You know, I let you answer that one too. And here we go; "science requires taking both alternatives into consideration wherever there are two alternatives equally possible concerning a certain case. And if the likelihood of one of the two alternatives is much lower, for example if it is only one percent, then the rational and scientific thing to do is to consider the other alternative, whose likelihood is 99 percent, to be the valid one." EXTREMO are you with me?. You see my friend, you guys evolutionists are liers who twist the principle of science to suit your disbelieve in GOD. As indicated above, if you have two matters that need consideration and one of them(evolution) has lesser percentage chance of being true it has to be discarded. Do you ever wanna do that?. I guess not. Russia would have survived teaching evolution seventy years. "Over the past four decades, modern biochemistry has uncovered the secrets of the cell. It has required tens of thousands of people to dedicate the better parts of their lives to the tedious work of the laboratory. The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell -to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!". The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science... Instead a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labelled intelligent design, the other side must be labelled God." by michael j behe, Darwin's black box. You see, that is what we call a true scientist. If the discovery of live at the molecular level speaks of A DESING what of THE CELESTIAL BODIES of the UNIVERSE?. How about the stars and THE WHOLE GALAXY?. I know you will give a hypocritic answer but AT LEAST TRY A HUMAN ONE. Why not think about yourself and what you eat?. How come you have this taste of different things?. The bitter, the sweet, the sour, etc etc. Tell me how nature figured out your different tastes and gave you the GLAND(TONGUE) to feel all of it?. I am waiting for a new pc of mine to build itself for me and want you to suggest HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE MY PC TO FORM ITSELF?. Give it a shot EXTREMO.
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| | Unrecorded Date And Extremo. May be you need to go back and read what I wrote. I qouted from the Quran and gave you the number refrence. I also belief the original books of the bible and TOWRAH to be the books of god incase you don't know. So read carefully when you read and after you are done worshipping yourself so that you can have a clear mind.
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| | Unrecorded Date to Bashir Abdi I am a watcher. I only observe and form my own conclusions after carefully examanation of every side. I DON NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY BOOK, AS THE BOOK. If this civilition died and another race came to be evolved and they thought for there selves and they would find a book called: The Salmarillion (a story about gods and peoples who lived on the planet) the would probally also accept as the BOOK THAT SAYS IT ALL. I aint A Muslim and I aint Got the book! I will read it when I'm done with school( in about 3 weeks) then I will give you mine opinion about the Muslim beliefs. Oh Ja, also. What this about the communists. I also know another Muslim, he be crapping on the communists. But the communists had some good idea's you don't know anything about them and you say that I have bin influanced by a scientist. HA HA please. don't give me that crap. The system was corrupted, not the idear itself. It speaks up for people like You. But I'm losing the main point: God is a fiction in the human mind. I aint influanced by any scientists, because I ridicule them too. Go in the way of Boeddha. Then you will see everything. The understanding of life. I see it everyday clearer. p.s the statistics are only there to let you see that there is a chance. Not that there isn't any chance. OKAY. They will let you see the facts more straight. And don't call me Extremo. BASHIO
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, If you are one who holds prejudices against this religion, someone who loves to hate and condemn..then, a renowned convert, Gary Miller has these words to say to you... http://www.themodernreligion.com/essays_Gary_Miller.htm There is no compulsion for man to accept truth. But it is certainly a shame upon the human intellect when man is not even interested in finding out what the truth is. Islam teaches that God has given us the FACULTY OF REASON and therefore expects man to reason things out objectively and systematically for ourselves - to reflect and to question and to reflect. http://www.themodernreligion.com/islam_knowledge.htm
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| | Unrecorded Date HURIWA, is said that I was a watcher and I don not JudGe; anything. I just point out the offious. And I ask my self why are you so interested in one book. When there are so many out there. Look I aint nobody Who is obsessed with one book (no disrespect ment). But I'm one who creates. I write my own stuff. My own views of this world. I am one who isn't influanced by the popular beliefs. I rather take the obscure then the popular. I don't care about no man that is called Gary Miller. See because I respect all live, yours his, everybody. That's the first rule of my existance. The others I did not yet put down on paper but I got a lot of them. Someday I will give them to you, they will make a lot of sence. But for now I just say: Respect for everyone! p.s. the Islam has some good points and some bad points.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, I'm a watcher too and I judge as I see. I juge your views and I point out the obvious(your disblieve in our faith). I do not follow different books(faiths), because I do not want to be confused and contradict myself. I'm obsessed with one book---called the QURAN. I believe what that Book says and I agree with whoever follows and believes that Book. Whoever follows and believes that book (the QURAN) and I are being influenced beliefs in the Quran. I'm not influenced by any man made religion or any non-sense thing (disbelieve) you might follow (no offense). I do not care about your beliefs(or disbelieve). Respect is two way street. You respect me; I respect you----that is how it works.
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| | Unrecorded Date Hyriwaa. What you say Is very incorrect but Okay I accept it. If you want to be ignorant. Thats your choice. But if you want to broaden your beliefs in the truth then you gotto read all you can and form your own opinion. Not that blind opinion that you use from the KORAN. According to me you use to Koran to save you from the free thoughts that would confuse you! I'm sorry but that is no respect, no selfrespect. You got to read all you can, and thats the fact. To Maddoc, were do you belief in exactly? what you are saying I just can't follow!
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, What is incorrect is your thinking that I do not read other books. I read them, but I DO NOT ACCEPT THEM, because they do not make sense to me as the Quran does. I already formed an opinion about the other books, but it seems that you are at lost and confused as to what to choose. According to you, Quran is free from clear thinking. The Quran straightens people's conviction about who Allah is if they free their minds from confusion. The Quran has no bad things in it; the Quran is the only book that does not contradict itself. I feel sorry for you that you are at lost and do not have a firm belief to choose one track, freely. I respect the Quran; I do not respect your confusion and the lack of conviction to one thing that you are experiencing.
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| | Unrecorded Date Extreme said:"I am a watcher. I only observe and form my own conclusions after carefully examanation of every side." That is good to hear because atheists are usually intolerant people around believers og god. This is good indeed for us so that we can discourse in this discussion. About your communist friends it was said:" Karl Marx made it clear that Darwin’s theory provided a solid ground for materialism and thus also for communism. He also showed his sympathy to Darwin by dedicating Das Kapital, which is considered as his greatest work, to him. In the German edition of the book, he wrote: "From a devoted admirer to Charles Darwin". You see my freind extreme, it is just pure materialism that drove communists to reject god and demolish all kinds of religious traces from their society and now they are collecting what they invested in those seventy years of atheist brutalism. So atheism goes hand in hand with communism no question about it. That is just the politics. As you said we need to talk about god right?.Okey no proplem. The psychology of the unbeliever has existed throughout history. In the Qur’an it is described thus: "Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in God’s plan. But most of them ignore (the truth). (Surat Al-Anaam : 111) The same psychology is defined in another verse of the Qur’an: "Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, they would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (Surat Al-Hijr : 14-15) So you see my freind, this atheist dogma is not a new thing it existed through out history. What is worse though in your situation is you don't treat the atheism with skepticism and you take to heart when YOUR SATAN DARWIN SUGGESTED OTHERWISE and he said: "If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking most closely all of the species of the same group together must assuredly have existed... Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains." Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species. The man of the atheism is admitting skepticism and you guys wanna treat it REAL! You see extreme, that tells, you have nothing to do with logic but A dogmatic belief that there is no god which you force into people's throats by calling them names when they reject you. Guys, you can have your cakes but can't eat lol!. And BASHIO is really marketable although I am not on the hunt but sounds okey to me. I don't know what is wrong with EXTREMO but won't use it anyway.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bros Bashir Abdi and Huriwaa, well done!! Jazaka Allah khair. Extreme, is your aethism based on your knowledge of science only? Do you consider yourself to be well versed and knowledgeable about Islam in its totality? Forgive me for the intrusive questions, I am trying understand the basis that one rejects his/her faith. Is it that one is ignorant of what is in the quran or is one in denial?? It is prudent and wise to always remeber that little knowledge is dangerous!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali. I just updated my netscape version and was trying to see how it works. Behold! there is the lady praying for us!. Well sister, thanks and the same goes out to you. Mad Mac. I really don't like you bail out my freind. We will all learn through your persistence and questions. As long as we respect each other, questions won't hurt whatever they are. Islam is out there to be, accepted, rejected, bruised, you name it. So it won't be a proplem to me and to huriwaa and all that read here if you ask questions intelligently. Extreme. How about my last message?. still thinking over it?. Don't go anywhere, because you have a lot more to learn too from people. And one more thing; What is your nationality?.
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| | Unrecorded Date to: Huriwaa First of I'm not lost and I know exactly know what I am doing. Believe it or not. One of my rules states: Always have a clear mind, were you can state your counter arguments from. I just resently learned this, and I am already improving in everything. So I advice you have a clear mind. It's the basis for everything. to: Xaali I have little knowledge of the Koran I agree, but what I know is suficiant to state my claimes. I altready said I would read the book, but over three weeks because I have exams. to: Bashi(o) Basir if you would be faced by a remarkabel thing such as aliens from (were ever.) what would you do! Theres nothing in the Koran about this. So what would you do? What you all wrote is all propaganda that the Koran is THE book. Stating about it. This does not say this is correct. Can you think for your self, instead of using the book the whole time. A clear argument how you feel, instead of stating from a book is more correct. And I am Dutch, that explains the time difference. What nationality are you? O jah, I don't call nobody no names! Just as I said respect. If you don't pay respect for me why should I pay respect for you. Thats the question you should ask your self if somebody is disrespectin you! p.s. It's now 10:00 here!
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, The difference between you and I is that you are still in search of the truth, so you are lost. I found my bath. You do not know the truth and you are mixed-up and in confusion---as to what to choose. I've chosen my belief already which I'm happy with it. The Quranic message is not a propaganda. It is you who is promoting ignorance and propaganda against the Quran. You said you do not know that much of the Quran, but your claims against the Quran is just that----claims(propaganda). It seems to me that the Quranic messages we forward to here really bother you very much, but you know what? We Muslims are going to use the Quran if it bothers you or not. How can you seek from us respect when you are disrespecting our belief by saying that Islam (Quran) has some bad points, extreme? You are not going to get any repect from me if you continue to talk like that.
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| | Unrecorded Date Finally I got you! You begin with propaganda and end with propaganda. Look at what you wrote. You say to me that there are no bad point in the Koran. Come on, do you belief it yourself. SO according to you everything. EVERYTHING is correct in the Koran. You agree with everything. Tell me when did you first read the Koran? When you were six probally. You read it, when you were to young to form a opinion of yourself. It became your opinion. THIS IS WITH THE ODMOST RESPECT. You were fed as a young boy with everything over the Islam, that it's The Way! That the Koran is the only book. Tell me if you didn't grew up in a Muslim family. Would you believe in the Islam? If you grew up in a Christan family you were probally stating the same arguments but then with the bible as basis. Tell me do you have an opinion of yourself. That isn't influanced by outSIDE.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, You got nothing! Your ignorance of the Quran shows that you got nothing. Your ignorance is making you to create propaganda against the Quran by saying that the Quran has bad points. According to Allah and to the believers, EVERYTHING that is in the Quran is correct, but if you are ignorant about the Quran, so you would not know about this, would you? However, without knowledge of the Quran, you want to form an opinion about the Quran. How can your propaganda about the Quran is correct if you are IGNORANT about the Quran? ExTrEmE, not everyone who did not grow up in a Muslim family is a Muslim. There are millions who grew up in a Christian family but believing the Quran and forming an opinion about It after they read It. Those people who became Muslims and those who are born in a muslim family are being influenced by the Quran. However, ExTrEmE, who is influencing you about the Quran------do not tell me that your ignorance about the Quran is influencing you to form an opinion? And if this is THE OUTMOST RESPECT you have for the Muslims, you got no respect from me.
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| | Unrecorded Date Extreme You know, I'm no physisist, BUT I will say the Steven Hawkings, who is far brighter than I, believes that nothing comes from nothing, therefore something had to get the ball rolling and he believes in GOD. Huriwaa Saahib, you need to tone it down again dude. Extreme has the right to express his point of view. You have to accept the fact that MOST PEOPLE do not believe the Qur'an is perfect. That's not a slam against you or your religion. You must hold people of different beliefs in the same regard you want them to hold you. Also, I do believe there is only one God and I do believe that Mohamed was his prophet. What I don't believe is the the Qur'an is perfect. I definately believe the qur'an is vulnerable to errors in transcription and intial writing as all the other Holy Books were. I am Christian in that I believe that Christ was a prophet of God and I believe the prophet who carried Gods message in the most succintly of all the prophets. I do not believe in the trinity or that he was the son of God. But I believe he was a very unique prophet and my personal favorite. I'm not sure about Buhda and where he fits in. I have to study that more. I do respect all points of view however, and I can most assuredly tell you I WILL NEVER say I have found THE PATH. I know that's what you believed just as strongly as my father believed in Christ. And that's perfectly OK with me. So don't assume that because I don't agree with everything you say I don't respecting you - cause it just ain't so. Bashir Sorry I disappeared. I was preoccupied answering the fanatics concerning a little joke I generated on the general net. No one has a sense of humor anymore.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, It is my right to express my views on you and extreme, especially when you and him (in your ignorance about the Quran) tell me that the Quran is INCORRECT. I know that you do not accept the totality of the Quran, because you said so, but when you tell me that the Quran is INCORRECT, especially when you are ignorant about it, says to me that you are disrespecting the Quran; therefore, a slam against my religion. Yes, I hold people of different beliefs in the same regard they want hold on my beliefs. If you and extreme (ignorantly) say that the Quran is not perfect, you are not respecting my belief, therefore, I have no respect for you and him and your disbelieve in the totality of the Quran. I am not a Christian but if someone who calls himself a Christian tells me that the Quran is not PERFECT, I'll tell him that he is WRONG. If he does not like me to tell him that he is WRONG, then that is his problem. If my own blood brother disrespects the Quran and says to me that the Quran is INCORRECT (like you are saying) I’ll let him know too and express my point of view by telling that he is WRONG. If he does not like it my views on him, that is his problem too.
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| | Unrecorded Date To: Huriwa You talk about nothing and avoid question, be some strange view of honour and respect. What ever. Come with some valid points and then I will write you more. to: Bashir were ya at. to: MadMac You better read some about Boeddha because he has some valid points. If you read about him and his beliefs you will learn more about life and you will learn about it. See Ya
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, If you had respect for our religion and if you were sincere about asking questions about our religion, you would have asked questions about the QURAN. But what did you do instead of that? You are disrespecting our belief by saying that the Quran is INCORRECT and Islam has bad points. Ignorant people like you just say that the Quran is incorrect or Islam has some bad points....without...asking and tells about the bad things and the incorrect things you are talking about. So, since you have no respect for our beliefs, I have no respect for an ignorant person like you.
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| | Unrecorded Date Yeah what ever. I can't talk to you. (again avoiding answers with some bs about respect) See ya
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, Talk is cheap.....claiming that Islam (the QURAN) has bad points is not going to give you respect from me. You thought you could avoid or get away with disrespecting our beliefs without asking questions and bringing evidences.
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| | Unrecorded Date Religion and the Scientist ...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world... And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........ Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought. Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, lease answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning? Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine. Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product. Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable. Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence? Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on. Yunus: Is this what you believe? Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory. Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago. Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory. Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam. Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed. Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this. Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess. Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ? Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape. Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat. Bob: Go on. Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago? Bob: I'm not convinced. Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from? Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own. Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork. Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well. Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha! Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school. Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis. Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet? Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live. Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy. Bob: I'm listening. Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........" Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580. Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets". Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________. Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect. Bob: What do you mean?! Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa. The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding". Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes". Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off. The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ? Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres. Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........" Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation. Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed. Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all. Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans.... Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %. Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from water. Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water. Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents. Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa. Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart. Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ? Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate..... Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick. Bob: Tell me more. Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......." Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....". Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place. Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them. Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue. Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it." Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings? Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan? Bob: Please go on. This is interesting. Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world. Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description. Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy. These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God." Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media? Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences." Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue.... Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......". Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics. Bob: What do you mean? Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited. Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean? Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two. Bob: Can you give me an example ? Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health. Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination. Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam. Bob: What do you mean ? Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact. Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ. Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing. Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine. Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon....... Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases. Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork. Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ? Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown. Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down......... .
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| | Unrecorded Date Another lesson for our atheist Extreme. Ansari. Thanks bro, you saved my day. Mad Mac. Finish reading the Quran first and then claim whatever you wanna claim. Huriwaa. Hang in there bro, you are doing a great service to our community.
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| | Unrecorded Date Saahib You told me not to go away. It's going to take months to get through the Qur'an - it's not short easy reading. You got to read something, think about it, it's laborious. Besides, my main message to Huriwaa is it is not an insult when someone says they don't believe the Qur'an is never incorrect. Imagine him in a discussion with a Jew who maintains that the Torah is the word of God and is never incorrect. They would go back and forth each claiming their book is never incorrect and the word of God. Then each would claim that the other was insulting him because each is saying the others book is incorrect - must be if theirs is never incorrect. You see what I mean. Huriwaa is starting from a position that anything that doesn't agree with him is an insult - and it's impossible for anyone to have a true discourse under those circumstances. He does fine when he's just answering questions but he has a hard time once it moves from answering questions to questioning his answers.
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| | Unrecorded Date to: Mad Mac Thank you for explaining my argument To: Ansaari The characters in your story are a little bit of. Take the professor for instance. He has no good arguments at all. He is just pointing some facts and then this other character: yahuub is telling him that it's all in the Koran. And please change the name of that scientist cause it's a real stupid name: Bob. Come on you did that on purpose. Also this about meat. The Buddhists don't eat meat. They respect all life. Maybe they came to the same conclusion as the Koran did. And Like I before stated, many information that is stated in the Koran was already present. By the greece, by the Aztek, by the Egyptians and the Maya. They all had surperior insights of the stars and the sun. Also you know the city Atlantis, there is rumour that it did exist, but it was destroyed by an trumendous disaster that is mentioned in almost every people that lived then. They all say they were visited by a race of humans after the disaster. And it's rumoured that they gave them this information. Many information that is also in the Koran. Further I belief the Koran is an collection of works by the humanrace combined. As one of the others said before you can interped the Koran in many ways. I doubt it that the Muslims in the beginning new that the earth was round. Only when modern science saw this, then the Muslims saw it too, that this was in the Koran. You see Science and the Koran need eachother to fully understand the world were we live in. O yeah does the Koran mention anything about the balance of live. And you are correct about the ants, the communicate through chemicals, but they don't have a marketplace in what way or another. Sorry, I have a fasination about ants, and they do not have a Marketplace.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, You want me to say to you are right and that you proved your point without you presenting anything that discredits the Quran. It is ridiculous that you want my respect by insulting my intelligent. If a Jew man (like you) tells me that the Torah is correct, I'll tell him (you) that I follow the Qur'an which is never incorrect. But if he (you) keeps pressing that the Quran is incorrect in a disrespecting way (without showing me what he is talking about), I'll tell him( you) that he(you) does not deserve my respect for him (your) ignorance of the Quran. I don't go to the Jews forumss and tell them that the Torah is incorrect. If I do that, I'm disrespecting their beliefs. So, if you (MAD MAC) keep saying to me that you do not know anything about the Quran and at the same time you claim that the Quran is INCORRECT, you are disrespecting my belief. This is not the way to earn respect from me. You earn respect by not disrespecting my belief. If you are told that you are wrong (and ignorant about the Quran which you have not read it yet) and that you do not deserve my respect, do not get MAD, because respect is a two way street. If you do not understand this, I can not help you, because you keep missing my point to you. When I tell you that the Quran is never in correct and you get mad, that is your problem. When you persistently disrespect other’s beliefs, you are insulting them and you deserve what you asked for. I do not have to respect you when you keep telling me that the Quran is incorrect (when you do not even know about the Quran and when you do not even bring up the things you said are incorrect about the Quran). You are insulting our intelligent when you claim (without knowledge) that the Quran is incorrect.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa Saahib, try putting the shoe on the other foot. I tell you that the Book of Mormon is NEVER INCORRECT. I say that Issa is the son of God. You say the Qur'an says he is not, and therefore the Book of Mormon must be incorrect. I say you're being ignorant, you've never read the Book of Mormon. Then I claim you're insulting me by claiming the book of Mormon is incorrect and you are disrespecting my faith and therefore me when you say it is incorrect and you've never read it. That is EXACTLY the argument you are using here. Now I've been reading a lot of the Qur'an plus I've had my cheat sheets - that would be you, Bashir Abdi and lots of other Muslims whom I've discussed this with over the years. So I''m not totally ignorant of the Qur'an. In order to effectively defend Islam YOU MUST USE OTHER FRAMES OF REFERENCE BESIDES THE BOOK ITSELF. Otherwise you won't convince anyone of anything and will fail in your Islamic duty to spread the word. If I handed you a very eloquent and moving book and said "This is the Word of God and if you want to be saved you must accept it." you would say, I already have a book that does that and I don't need another. This is the only True Word of God. That's what you're doing here. Do me a favor and go to a bookstore and buy (or order if they don't have it) a book called The Prophet by Khalil Gibran. Read it through. It's not about religion it's more about philosophy. Trust me on this Abowe. I am not insulting you. I msaying that RIGHT NOW I am not convinced that the Qur'an is the unadulterated word of God. That's all I'm saying. Maybe when I read more I'll change my mind. Maybe not. That ain't the point. To have a discourse with someone you have to be willing to give and take. You can't consider someone not concurring with your viewpoint to be an insult. There's no room for discourse there.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, When you tell me not to reference the QURAN ONLY (YOU MUST USE OTHER FRAMES OF REFERENCE BESIDES THE BOOK ITSELF), you are telling me that the QURAN is an adulterated Word of God, but you are WRONG again. The Quran is the book that tells me the BOOK has no crookedness. I believe that the Quran is never INCORRECT and that Allah is enough as my SOURSE of belief. I did not see any crookedness in the Quran. I will never ignore the source of the QURAN and look for other beliefs (books) that contradict the QURAN . I do not have to defend Islam; the QURAN defends Itself. If the QURAN does not convince you to believe Allah's Words, I can't help you. I can only point out to you where you are wrong, but you are not even giving me the things you claim about the QURAN when you say that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. Let's discuss about the QURAN that you have problem with. If you run away from the QURAN and you do not want me to USE, how can I help you in your ignorance about the QURAN. I'm just telling you that the QURAN is NEVER INCORRECT, but you keep saying it is INCORRECT, yet you do not tell me where did you find INCORRECT statement in the QURAN.!!! How STUPID CAN YOU BE, MAD MAC?. I f a Mormon tells me that his book is NEVER INCORRECT, I do not have to believe him. I'll him I have another book that contradict His (the QURAN). If he has problem with that, that is his problem. He can have his book; I can have mine. I do not go to the moron forumss and tell them that their book is INCORRECT---that would be disrespecting them (insulting their belief). If he comes to me and tells me that the BOOK of QURAN is INCORRECT without showing me where the incorrect thing he is talking about, he is disrespecting me. Then, I'm not going to take disrespecting attitude like that from him; I'm going to tell him that he is WRONG, if he does not like that, that is his problem.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa OK dude allow me to clarify. What if I were to tell you that the book of mormon is never incorrect. Then I said the according to the book of Mormon Issa is the son of God. You then say that can not be, because the Qur'an says he's not and the Qur'an is never incorrect. I then say how can you say the book of Mormon is wrong when you've never read it? Then I acccuse you of disrespecting my religion. That is EXACTLY what you are doing here. You can not have a discourse if you are not willing to give and take nor can you have a discourse if your only frame of reference is one document. I say Mountains don't just blow up, there has to be vulcanic activity or some force that generates an explosion, you say the Qur'an is never wrong. I say I have evidence based on hypnosis and multiple eyewitness accounts that reincarnation exists and you say the Qur'an is never wrong. That's not a discussion, saahib. That's a mantra. You don't persuade anyone with mantras. If you want to be successful at converting intellectuals you have to cite more than one source and you have to explain your arguments in more depth than simply saying "It says so in the Qur'an." I also recoommend that you get a copy of Khalil Gibrans The Prophet. It has a lot of interesting insights. It's not a book on religion, it's philosophy.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, It is you who needs to bring evidence that the Quran is INCORRECT. If you keep saying to me that the QURAN is INCORRECT and you do not bring a case against the QURAN, you are just goofing. How can we have discourse if you don't even tell me the INCORRECT statement in the QURAN that you are talking about, your claim is NOT just a mantra; it is just stupid...how you persuade people away from their beliefs by just claiming that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. Telling me not to reference the Book of QURAN when what we are talking is the QURAN itself is nothing but unintelligent on your part. Why don't you tell us that the book of Khalil Gibrans says about the Quran if that is where you get your notion of the QURAN IS INCORRECT so we can talk about it? Again, MAD MAC, you case against the QURAN is WRONG, because you are just goofing and not conviencing us your claim---that the QURAN IS INCORRECT.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa. what the hell are you talkin about. It seems to me that you only write the same words. How disapointing. Come on sed aside this so called respect (stuburnes). and talk some sence. to bashir. what do you actually think about the aswers that I gave on your first 16 questions.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTreMe, Do you and mad mac expect from me to agree with you without you presenting anything that discredits the Quran? DO YOU THINK I'LL ACCEPT AND BE HAPPY WITH YOUR CLAIM THAT THE QURAN IS INCORRECT? If you guys continue to talk non-sense(instead of bringing evidence or a case against the QURAN), you are not going to earn ANY respect from me. You TWO guys better come up with something to base your claim against the QURAN or you will keep disappointing yourselves.
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| | Unrecorded Date I think you got a problem with yourself. A case, Okay. But first tell me if the (CORRECT) Koran tells anything about the balance of life>> that every animall relies on another to survive. the foodchain. Does the Koran sez anything about this.
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| | Unrecorded Date And it wasn't anything to offence you. I truly think that you got a problem with yourself because you go on and on with respect. I think you got your values wrong, but thats ok. The are different to mine. And also can you tell me if it is halaal to eat appels, when it caused so much damage with Adam and Eve.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa Buddy, you aren't following me. But OK I'll satisfy your requirement. Issue - Allah is Merciful. That is written all over the Qur'an. Merciful - Full of Mercy Mercy - A compassion or forbearance to an offender or one subject to ones power. If you have genuine intellectual doubts in the existence of God - for example - and you don't truly believe, that is NOT your fault. Anyone can say he believes but that doesn't mean he does. Now if Allah is merciful he will certainly forgive this transgression that the individual really couldn't control. Yet, as you are so fond of reminding us all, Allah will not. That, saahib, is inconsistent, and is the root reason I rejected Christian teaching as flawed as well. Now, on to the bigger question. My point wasn't really whether the Qur'an is correct or not. My point was that YOU have to use more than the Qur'an in your arguments with extreme or you have no leverage. To simply reject his earlier points (which you did) by saying it says X, Y and Z in the Qur'an and the Qur'an is never incorrect is no argument at all. You need other frames of reference to be convincing. That's all I'm saying. Khalil Gibran doesn't say anything about the Qur'an or the bible or whatever. He writes about really how people should treat each other. And he reminds us that no man is better than another - another point of umbrage I have with the Qur'an which is teaching you that all Muslims are your brothers and therefore indicating that everyone else is something less than that. As if ones self-worth were based on ones religious beliefs. There, that should be enough to chew on for a while.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, First, you are WRONG when you said if you have genuine intellectual doubts in the existence of God - for example - and you don't truly believe, that is NOT your fault. Then, whose fault is it---that you refused to believe Allah's Words-----Allah? !!! Allah gave you intellect to judge what is correct and what is not correct and there is a reason that He created heaven and hell. Just because you have chosen to blind yourself to the truth does not mean you will get to heaven. Allah is Merciful and He forgives an offender, but one thing He will not forgive is SHIRK/DISBELEIVE. It is not Allah's fault that you choose SHIRK/DISBELIEVE over BELEIVE. It is your fault. Allah sent the prophet with the QURAN for two reasons. One is to wish those who CHOOSE to believe the good rewards in the hereafter and the other is to warn those who CHOOSE to disbelieve the bad rewards in the hereafter----The prophet preached the QURAN and the QURAN says the prophet was BASHIRAN WA NADIIR(giver of glad tidings and a Warner). If your point wasn't really whether the Qur'an is correct or not, then you should not have insisted and claimed that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. You and extreme did not present any argument that proves your claim that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. You two just did not show what you were talking about. You just kept throwing some cheap shots at the QURAN without evidence---that I call, my friends, stupid arguments. I do not need anything else but the QURAN when you two are trying to discredit the QURAN. I'm going to continue to ask you to bring evidence against the QURAN if you keep telling me that the QURAN is INCORRECT. And if you do not like that, that is your problem. If you say that the QURAN IS INCORRECT and I tell you that you are not my brother in faith that does not mean you are less than human. I'm just saying to you that we do not share religious beliefs. The QURAN says that( in the sight of Allah) there is no comparison between the blind(the disbeliever) and the one who sees (the believer).
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, Before I answer your question about the QURAN, you must first prove your CLAIM that the QURAN is INCORRECT. Tell me what made you say that the QURAN IS INCORRECT? Did you read the QURAN and found out INCORRECT things or you are just saying it?
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| | Unrecorded Date People; If Extreme is the intelligent person he counts himself to be, he wouldn't be stuck with a false ideology and notion that its modern proponents admit and confess that it is not the way they thought in the first place. It is really impossible for anything to come into being by natural selection and evolution and here is the admission and the confession of evoltuionist scientists of this era admitting their helplessness. "It is extremely improbable that proteins and nucleic acids, both of which are structurally complex, arose spontaneously in the same place at the same time. Yet it also seems impossible to have one without the other. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means" Dr. Leslie Orgel, Earth, "Life's Crucible", February 1998, p.34. From the University of califronia. Here is another admission; "All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did." Harold Urey, (his student)Stanley Miller, made the above confession on the subject in W.R.Bird, "The Origin Of Species Revisited, Nashville, Thomas Nelson Co 1991, p 325". "How did the Genetic Code, along with the mechanisms for its translation (ribosomes and RNA molecules), originate? For the moment, we will have to content ourselves with a sense of wonder and awe, rather than with an answer." Jeffrey Bado, Earth, Subat, 1998, p 40. I quoted all the quotations from "The Impasse Of Molecular Evolution" in The book "The collapse of the theory of evolution and the fact of creation". By Harun Yahya. Extreme. I tell you that the Quran is not for science but is to educate you about alot of things that you don't know about. For instance in your ingorance you said: "And also can you tell me if it is halaal to eat appels, when it caused so much damage with Adam and Eve." The truth is this from the Quran Concerning Adam and Eve. Both you and christians have some superstition about the Incident and you can take advantage of it. Here it goes: "30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." 31. And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right." 32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom." 33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?" 34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. 35. And We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." 36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (Garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. And We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood - for a time." 37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord certain words, and (Allah) accepted his repentance; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. 38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." That is the true story of Adam's creation and why he was created. And how both Adam and Eve came out Heaven.Not because of An APPLE(What an idiotic suggestion. This is what we learn from the Quran and Many other things. Enjoy the free lessons AND DON'T YOU BADMOUTH THE QURAN when you HAVEN'T LAID EYES ON IT.
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| | Unrecorded Date http://queerjihad.web.com/
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| | Unrecorded Date warsame. what is the point in giving out the faggot links without explaining your points?. I wonder what was your point.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa Saahib you could try the patience of a saint. I'll bet your wife is ready to kill you. OK, let me go over the AGAIN. This is a forums where theoretically we DISCUSS things - hence the name discussion forums. Now we're discussing Islam. No one can prove the Qur'an is incorrect, one can only prove there are inconsistencies. Allah can not be merciful and judemental at the same time. That is oxymoronic. That is an inconsistency. You can wish it away by saying simply saying that's the way it is because the Qur'an is never incorrect, that doesn't mean it's so. You ask the question "if the intellectual doesn't believe who's fault is it Allah?" The answer to that question is yes. Allah made me the way I am for example. If I don't believe in the Qur'an in my heart and soul it's because he made me in a such a way that I have intellectual doubts about that version of the story. Now you say if I reject the Qur'an as the absolute word of God I'm damned. But God made me this way. I can't suddenly be something else. See my point - I'm sure you don't but trust me, it's logical.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad MAC You need to understand that you are responsible for what you do. Allah is not the one who is responsible for your actions unless you are insane or have no brains. You know what the word accountable means don't you?. "Verily, we have showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful"76:3 "O mankind! There has come to you a good advice from your lord, and a healing for that in your breasts(hearts), a guidance and a mercy for the believers" 10:57 Mad, Allah always gives examples of those who believe in him and of those who don't believe in him. Allah tells us in the Quran about those who believe in him: "8.4 Such in truth are the Believers: they have grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness, and generous sustenance" "9.71 The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise." "9.72 Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of everlasting stay. But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah. that is the supreme felicity" Mad that is just to mention few and now about the DISBELIEVERS: "And for those who disbelieve in their Lord is the torment of hell, and worst indeed is that destination. "When they are cast therein, they will hear the drawing in of its breath as it blazes forth. "It almost bursts up with fury. Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: "Did no warner come to you?" "They will say:" Yes indeed; a warner came to us, but we belied him and said: "Allah never sent down anything, you are in great error." "And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing fire! "Then they will confess their sin. So, away with the dwellers of the blazing fire"67:6-11 Now mAD mAC, when you see these don't be scared but compare both the good promise and the result of the disbelieve to ALLAH they both go hand in hand. If you pick one you get the result of it. It is pure personal. Also see how they complain about not using their intelligence after they get their punishments. Only Allah told you what will happen. YOU NEED to either follow what is the right course for you or like EXTREME our friend just forget about the whole god and his affairs and worship yourself. Allah is the most merciful TRUE, but he is the Hardest Punisher too. He can do whatever he wants. He is the master of the universe. The Owner of everything. He does what he likes and no one asks why He did. Muslims are polite towards Allah particularly those who are righteous. My freind Mac, I know this seems illogical to you but it is the truth that we can't scape. That why muslims say hey submitt to Allah and his orders. They love him more than anything and fear him for his MIGHT AND LORDSHIP. The same way people who punish those who break the law are not merciless, is Allah most high not merciless. It is just what everybody earns with his own hands and legs and etc etc that will bring either happiness to him or sadness to him.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I'm not married, but I'm sure I want to marry a lady who would not blame Allah for her faults (disbelief). Who knows she might kill me and say it was my fault too when I tell her it's her intellect that failed, not Allah when she looses patience with me. Allah gave her not only an intellect to choose believe or disbelieve, but he gave her the tools(a prophet and book). If she says that the book is incorrect without even reading it and then disbelieve the Words of Allah, she has chosen herself believe over disbelieve and no patience or a saint can help her against the inevitable. If this is a forums where theoretically we DISCUSS things, we should not just throw claims and say the this thing is incorrect without presenting evidence. If you do not bring case against the Quran and just say the QURAN IS INCORRECT--that does not mean you proved that the Quran is inconsistencies. You logic that Allah can not be merciful and judgmental at the same time just does not make sense. The only people who do not believe that Allah is both merciful and the judge of all judges are those who are disbeliveers of hell and heaven. You can not blame Allah if your intellect doesn't believe what is hell and heaven is for. In the same way, if you reject the Qur'an as the absolute word of God you choose to be damned. It is no fault of Allah that you disbelieve his QURAN that Mohammed brought. If someone chooses to steal a thing, it is not Allah's fault. Allah does not make a person thief; it's illogical thinking to blame Allah for your deeds when He gave you the free will to believe and disbelieve; the free will to do good or to do bad---a person must face the consequence of his or her deeds/misdeeds----this is call judgment(are the good doers/believers equal the bad doers/disbelievers? To think they are and not face consequence is illogical thinking, MAD MAC.
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| | Unrecorded Date Yo to everybody here open a new page and tell me were it is cuzz this page if full. It's to long. See ya, and then I will answer some questions.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir / Huriwaa I can not believe that two guys who are obviously reasonably intelligent can not undertand this point. You do not choose what to have faith in. That's why it's caled faith. Allah hasn't told me that if I don't believe I will go to hell. Not once. Now the Qur'an says that. But I don't KNOW that the Qur'an is the word of God and neither do you. You believe it. There's a HUGE difference. Not believing something is not an action. It's an inaction. Killing, on the other hand, is an action. You can choose to kill or steal. You don't choose to believe. Either your heart gives you faith that that's the truth or it doesn't. I can't believe you guys can't figure that out. I didn't CHOOSE not to believe the Qur'an. My intellect and my heart tell me it's written by men, not by God. That's not a choice. I could ie to myself and say, yep this is it, better follow it or I'll go to hell. That's just lying to yourself. I'm going to open a new page because this one is too hard to load. I'm calling it Bashir and Huriwaa's page. So answer there.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I have faith in the QURAN and I choose to believe that the QURAN is the Words of Allah. Allah sent prophets and told them to tell people to believe in Him and if people do not they are punished for it. Allah tells His prophets to tell people that it is better for them that they have belief(faith) in Him. Now, why would Allah punish people if people have no choice to believe, especially when He told them through His prophets that it is better that people have belief in Him, otherwise, they are damned? It does not make sense, MAD MAC, that you say you belief in Allah and his prophets, but not the message of belief or be damned? If you do not believe the Quran as the word of God, then you were lying when you said you believe Allah's messenger Mohammed being a messenger from Allah. The idea that not believing something is not an action AND you wouldn't be damned for it is WRONG. If this notion of yours were the truth, a man like Hitler who did not believe that he was doing wrong need not be punished for his deeds. When you say NO, you take an action. No is a deed, the action of disbelief. The prophets of Allah were rejected when the people they were sent for did not believe these prophets, but that does that mean the action of all these disbeliveers(the deed) is not their fault. Your logic is off beam, MAD MAC. I choose what to have faith in every day. Yes, the heart chooses, but you can not differentiate the heart that people have and people's thinking(their knowledge). I choose people that I know to be good and trustworthy and I have faith in them. I can choose to have reliance (faith) in some people and not others, because there is a reason I do this. Many Christians choose everyday and become Muslims after they read and understood(intellectually) Islam. They have faith in Allah, His Book(the QURAN) and His prophet after they read and they did comparison between Islam and Christianity. MAD MAC, Allah does not accept lies from anybody and it is not better for people to follow lies. When Allah is saying to people it is better that YOU DO this and YOU DO NOT DO this, He is giving people a choice---the choice to have good situation or bad situation. Allah does not give choice the lame or the mentally sick person and children. People reject the truth and choose to be rebellion even if they know what they are rejecting is the truth.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa, I answered you on the new page. This one is too tough to load.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE, I see you trying to avoid the question posed to you by Huriwaa. ExTrEmE why don’t you be 'intelligent' or even 'brave' enough to support your fictitious claims that the Quran is incorrect. Is it perhaps coz you have NO evidence to support your claim or are you shying away from proper debates?
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| | Unrecorded Date to: sista. I'm right in the middle in my exams. What are you saying, to prove claims I need much time. What I don't got at the moment. And why are troubeling about this (none of your business). Go harass somebody else, and if ya got anything come in three weeks back and i'll will have my defence. So till then, all of you. PEACE.
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