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...for brother `Umar: re; al mudhathir, 30-31!

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Sept. 29, 2000): ...for brother `Umar: re; al mudhathir, 30-31!
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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama `alaykum muslims,

umar,

this is the article i promised to post for you, regarding the verses 74; 30-31 in the
qur`an. insha allah, we’ll learn something from this -- if you fully participate...and
share your understanding and answer my questions, etc.

i asked you to post your own translation of this surrah(al-mudathir) - you said you had
no ‘personal’ translation...but that you agree with yusuf abdullah ali and mahmoud
marduke pick. anyway, as i said i would choose one of them, i chose -- yusuf ali. i
will post his translation of these verses;

[30. Over it are Nineteen.

31. And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a
disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a reminder to mankind.] surrah al-mudathir, verses 30-31...by yusuf ali(http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/quran/74.html)

first of all, the verse; ‘30’ reads; “calayhaa tiscata cashar” which is “OVER IT
NINETEEN” no ‘is’ or ‘are’. rashad chose; ‘is’ and yusuf ali chose ‘are’ -- both being false.

second, the verse; ‘31’ has many mistakes.

the phrase; “wa maa jacalnaa asxaabul naari ilaa malaa`ikatan” -- yusuf ali translates
it as; “we have set none but angels as guardians of the fire” this is incorrect, the verses says;

“we did not make the companions(guardians) of the fire except angels.”

are the two the same?

the phrase; “wa maa jacalnaa cida tuhum ilaa fitnata lil-ladiina kafaruu” is translated
by yusuf ali as; “we have fixed their *number* only as a trial for unbelievers” this is incorrect. it is;

“we did not make their *counting*(NOT numbers) except as a *fitna* for the
unbelievers”(which literally means...dissention, fitan discord -- as the arabic
dictionary translates it -- see “gulf arabic-english dictionary” published in the early
20th century, the second edition. the gulf arabic was the arabic the qur`an came down.)

the is no ‘numbers’ -- which doesn’t help rashad, at all. however, yusuf ali makes it easy for him.

now, now, -- my questions start...

what is god talking about in this verse(31)??? what will ‘add to the faith of the
faithful’(wa yazdaada ladiina aamunuu iimaanaa)???? what is that? what will make
the “people of the book be certain”(wa liyastayqina ladiina uutul kitaaba)???

1; this “thing” must be something that will ADD to the faith of the FAITHFUL(those
who believe in god, his messengers, his books, his angels, his day judgement, and fate);

2; this “thing” mus be something will make the people of the book(christians and
jews) be certain about the qur`an -- and will NOT leave any doubt in their mind that
this is a “warning to mankind”(nadiiru lilbashar 74.36).

so, ya umar, walaalkiis, tell me -- about it...

god willing, questions will go as we go on - but first things first. take care.


peace - ahmad!

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umar

Unrecorded Date
Ahmad wrote:
"first of all, the verse; ‘30’ reads; “calayhaa tiscata cashar” which is “OVER IT NINETEEN” no ‘is’ or ‘are’. rashad chose; ‘is’ and yusuf ali chose ‘are’ -- both being false. second, the verse; ‘31’ has many mistakes. the phrase; “wa maa jacalnaa asxaabul naari ilaa malaa`ikatan” -- yusuf ali translates it as; “we have set none but angels as guardians of the fire” this is incorrect, the verses says; “we did not make the companions(guardians) of the fire except angels.” are the two the same? the phrase; “wa maa jacalnaa cida tuhum ilaa fitnata lil-ladiina kafaruu” is translated by yusuf ali as; “we have fixed their *number* only as a trial for unbelievers” this is incorrect. it is; “we did not make their *counting*(NOT numbers) except as a *fitna* for the unbelievers”(which literally means...dissention, fitan discord -- as the arabic dictionary translates it -- see “gulf arabic-english dictionary” published in the early 20th century, the second edition. the gulf arabic was the arabic the qur`an came down.) the is no ‘numbers’ -- which doesn’t help rashad, at all. however, yusuf ali makes it easy for him."


Ahmed, I told you many times that the translation books of the Quran are not mistake free. In fact, I told you that they are not even Quran. I told you that the only Book that is mistake free is the Arabic Quran. Yusuf Ali, himself, wrote in his translation of the Quran this: "It's a scholarly work, and is equipped with adequate explanatory matter in the notes and the Preface, and a fairly full index. But the English of the Text is decidedly weak, and is not likely to appeal to those who know Arabic." Therefore, Ahmed, your so called "translation" of the Quran or any other translation of the Quran(even the Rashad Kadaab's translation which you said is ""the closest to the Arabic qur`an") contain human words which are defective, not so in the Arabic Quran. The Arabic Quran is mistake free. In fact It is the only one that can be called QURAN. I also told you that I do not translate the Quran, unlike you. Do you know that the Rashad Kadaab's translation which you said is "the closest t the Arabic qur'an" contains some verses that refering to Rashad Khalifa's own name(which he put them in there) while deleting some other verses of the Arabic Quran?!!


Ahmed wrote:
"now, now, -- my questions start... what is god talking about in this verse(31)??? what will ‘add to the faith of the faithful’(wa yazdaada ladiina aamunuu iimaanaa)???? what is that? what will make the “people of the book be certain”(wa liyastayqina ladiina uutul kitaaba)??? 1; this “thing” must be something that will ADD to the faith of the FAITHFUL(those who believe in god, his messengers, his books, his angels, his day judgement, and fate); 2; this “thing” must be something will make the people of the book(christians and jews) be certain about the qur`an -- and will NOT leave any doubt in their mind that this is a “warning to mankind”(nadiiru lilbashar 74.36)."

I would think it is the same "thing" that causes FIDNA to the 19ners(the Khalifites) Because of the "disease in their heart,", they engage in counting letters(numbers) instead of reading the Quran and reflecting on the other signs which the Quran repeatedly points out. That "thing" which Allah is talking about is a warning to all of us, not just to people who do not accept the “calayhaa tiscata cashar”, but everyone, including those who are obsessed with the number 19 and especially those who try to remove some verses from the Quran and those who believe in the Kadaab, who tried to remove some verses from the Quran, as a messenger. "The fact that God propheciesed(in 74/31) that 19 will be BUT A FITNA- means of misguidance/trail for disbelievers", especailly those who disblieve the verses(Ayats) of Allah.--------What a FIDNA!

Ahmed wrote:
"god willing, questions will go as we go on - but first things first. take care."

Will see, Insha-Allah.



By the way, Ahmed, what is this homosexual thing you are talking about that I'm hearing? Where did you get the information that sodomy (anal intercourse) is halaal in Islam?

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

umar,

i cannot help you in anyway if you do not participate FULLY. i asked you questions -- you only answered a DIRECTION i did not even ask you. EACH by each -- answer my questions. do not put all the questions in one paragraph...and then answer with ANOTHER leg of something.

you jumped up how this was 'fidna' for the khalifites. well, we did not even agree there is a "nineteen" in the qur`an yet. GO back -- and answer the questions.

and, btw -- i opened this discussion for THIS discussion only. please do not sweep in other discussions. stick with this one -- and answer the questions i give you, honestly, truthfully...and ALL of them for you to understand what i'm trying to get to you, if you are sincere. otherwise, please don't waste my time.


peace - ahmad

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umar

Unrecorded Date
Ahmad wrote:
"you jumped up how this was 'fidna' for the khalifites. well, we did not even agree there is a "nineteen" in the qur`an yet. GO back -- and answer the questions."

Well the 'fidna' I’m talking about is the "nineteen"---which you accidentally think you and I "did not even agree".! I told you that the "ninteen" that is in the Quran is a 'fitna' for the Khalifites and whoever is obsessed with it. So, how can I deny the 'nineteen' when I know "that God propheciesed(in 74/31)" and said that "19 will be BUT A FITNA- means of misguidance/trail for disbelievers"? In other word, the 'ninteen' is a 'fidna' for those who disbelieve the verses(Ayats) of Allah(9:128-9). The 19ners(aka--the Khalifites) and whoever agrees with them are suffering "disease in their heart,", because they engage in counting letters(numbers) instead of reading the Quran and reflecting on the other signs which the Quran repeatedly points out.


Ahmed wrote:
"and, btw -- i opened this discussion for THIS discussion only. please do not sweep in other discussions. stick with this one "

Ahmed, this is an open forums. There is no law that says nothing else can be discussed. The other forumss have in them different discussion topics at the same time; what is so especial about this one?


Ahmed wrote:
"answer the questions i give you, honestly, truthfully...and ALL of them for you to understand what i'm trying to get to you, if you are sincere. otherwise, please don't waste my time."

Well, I cannot help you if my answer did not satisfy you in the way you wanted. I told you I do not translate the Quran and I do not accept your so called "translation" of the Quran and Rashad Kadaabs translation. The so called the "translation" of the Quran of yours and the one you called "the closest to the Arabic qur`an") are defective. How can you say that the Rashad Kadaab's translation is "the closest to the Arabic qur'an" when Rashad Kadaab added his name and other non-Quranic things in there, while at the same time deleting some other verses of the Arabic Quran(9:128-9)?!! What a FITNA you guys are suffering!

Ahmed, I appreciate if you answer my question about the homosexual thing you were talking about. Where did you get the information that sodomy (anal intercourse) is halaal in Islam?

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

umar,

i do not have time to play 'seek and find'. let me know when you're ready to LEARN...and when you HONESTLY and SINCERELY want to learn. good bye, umar.

p.s. -- please LET me know where exactly you found that my translation was 'defective'. word for WORD -- everything i translated was the REAL meaning of the arabic script.


peace - ahmad

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umar

Unrecorded Date
Ahmed wrote:

"good bye, umar."

Peace. :-)

Ahmed wrote:
"p.s. -- please LET me know where exactly you found that my translation was 'defective' word for WORD -- everything i translated was the REAL meaning of the arabic script."


Ahmed, I told you that the 'ninteen' is a 'fidna' for those who disbelieve the verses (Ayats) of Allah(9:128-9) which you did not talk about.

I said that the 19ners(aka--the Khalifites) and whoever agrees with them are suffering "disease in their heart,", because they engage in counting letters(numbers) instead of reading the Quran and reflecting on the other signs which the Quran repeatedly points out.

I told you that God propheciesed (in 74/31) that the 19 will be BUT A FITNA- means of misguidance/trail for disbelievers", which you did not mention.


Therefore, Ahmad, if you do not believe that the 19ners (aka the Khalifites) are also those who disbelieve the verses (Ayats) of Allah (9:128-9), then your so called the "translation" of the Quran is defective, because your “translation” of the Quran can never be the REAL meaning of the Arabic script, the same way that Rashad Kadaab’s translation is never going to be "the closest to the Arabic qur`an") .


So, both of your translation and the one Rashad Kadaab translated (which you promoted or endorsed ) are defective, period.

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

umar,

HUH??? sometimes i think you have the mind of a child -- which is basically beyond understanding what 'adults' think. what in the world are you talking about??? rashad mis-translates the WHOLE chapter of mudathir...for HIS own purpose. he re-arranges the whole chapter -- to 'show' a meaning...that is NOT there in the arabic. a few examples are;

*wa maa adraaka maa saqar*

this means -- "and what do you know of saqar?" -- however, rashad translated as; "what a ritribution!" that is clearly mis-translation.

*laa tubqii wa laa tadar"

this means -- "leaves not and spares not" which rashad translated as; "thorough and comprehensive".

*lawaaxata lil-bashar*

this means -- "disfigures(scorches, dis-colors) the mortal(i.e., the flesh!)" which rashad translated as; "obvious to all people".

such mis-translations...were CREATED to suit and show one main idea; "the 19" -- while i think the 19 is in the qur`an -- more than a 'coincidence'...i don't believe people should shove mis-translations into the qur`an...to 'prove' that.


[Ahmed, I told you that the 'ninteen' is a 'fidna' for those who disbelieve the verses (Ayats) of
Allah(9:128-9) which you did not talk about.]

OKAY -- i will accept that(SINCE i have seen it with my own eyes!) however, how can this "19" give more faith to the faithful??? and how can this "19" CONVINCE the christians and JEWS...of the qur`an???? please note -- god put alot of STUFF together in this verse. if you really be honest and sincere and truthful, you can learn something from it.

[Therefore, Ahmad, if you do not believe that the 19ners (aka the Khalifites) are also those
who disbelieve the verses (Ayats) of Allah (9:128-9), then your so called the "translation" of the Quran is defective, because your “translation” of the Quran can never be the REAL
meaning of the Arabic script, the same way that Rashad Kadaab’s translation is never going to
be "the closest to the Arabic qur`an") .]

there plays the child i was talking about. what does the MEANING of arabic has to do with believing verses in teh qur`an??? any arab speaking person -- with SINCERE heart(and do not want to mis-translate) can translate the qur`an...in its origional way. i translated the literal meanings of the verses in english -- if you don't think so, please...tell me where.

the phrase; "wa maa jacalnaa cidatuhum" does not say; "and we made their number" but says; "and we did not make their COUNTING" are they the same?

rashad translated the qur`an in a way that is very close to the arabic -- unlike any other translator. however, there are places where rashad is SERIOUSLY biased for his own understanding...and mis-translates the qur`anic verses, clearly, to promote his own preachings.

for example, in suratul al-qaaricah. rashad translates the phrase; "wa maa adraaka maa al-qaaricah" as "do you have any idea what the shocker is?" that is a clear close to the arabic...unlike THE SAME phrase "wa maa adraaka maa saqar" which he translated as; "what a ritribution". do you see what i mean? he had no bias against al-qaaricah...unlike mudathir -- which was supposed to "promote" his "miracle". umar, are you even understanding what i'm trying to tell you???(get rid off the child, brother! lol!)

now, answer the questions about "faith of the faithful" and the "convincing" of the people of the book.


peace - ahmad

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umar

Unrecorded Date
Ahmed wrote:
"rashad mis-translates the WHOLE chapter of mudathir...for HIS own purpose. he re-arranges the whole chapter -- to 'show' a meaning...that is NOT there in the arabic."


If Rashad Kadaab "mis-translated the the QURAN---that means---his so called translation of the QURAN is NOT "very lose to the arabic"

[Ahmed, I told you that the 'ninteen' is a 'fidna' for those who disbelieve the verses (Ayats) of Allah(9:128-9) which you did not talk about.]

Ahmed responded:
"OKAY -- i will accept that(SINCE i have seen it with my own eyes!) however, how can this "19" give more faith to the faithful???"

Ahmad, how many times did I tell you that the "19" is not the only thing in the QURAN that the "faithful" reads acknowledges. I told you that the WHOLE QURAN gives "faith to the faithful". I'm telling you that every time I read the QURAN, the WHOLE QURAN, my faith increases, even if I read one of the small suras in the QURAN.


Ahmed wrote:
"umar, are you even understanding what i'm trying to tell you???(get rid off the child, brother! lol!) now, answer the questions about "faith of the faithful" and the "convincing" of the people of the book."


Ahmed, like the Khalifites, your are obsessed with the number 19 being a sign; your obsessive mind of 19 does not see what I’m telling you----I’m telling you that the WHOLE QURAN is miracle. The difference between you and I is that you sound like a small child who is given the choice to choose a candy and a thousand dollars.

Ahmed, your child like mind only sees the candy (the number 19 sign in the Quran) and I, on the other hand, see the thousands dollors(the thousands of signs in the Quran), yet you tell us that your so called translation of the QURAN is the REAL meaning of the Arabic script. You also tell us that the Rashad Kadaab’s translation is "the closest to the Arabic qur`an"------while at the same time you were reported to have said that homosexuality is HALAAL in Islam. :-)

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

umar,

[Ahmad, how many times did I tell you that the "19" is not the only thing in the QURAN that the
"faithful" reads acknowledges. I told you that the WHOLE QURAN gives "faith to the faithful".
I'm telling you that every time I read the QURAN, the WHOLE QURAN, my faith increases, even
if I read one of the small suras in the QURAN.]

once again, you mis-directed the question. i ask you again, what does; "and the Believers may increase in Faith" -- how can the believers' faith may increase in the "counting" of the angels????(which is 19)????????? this is MY question. don't dance around it -- answer it. you can trust me when i tell you that it has LONG list of questions that come together.

nobody said "reading" or "aknowledging" god says; "LIYASTAYQINA LADIINA AAMANUU IIMAANAA" -- how can that be with the *ciddah* of the angels????? answer it, dear brother.


peace - ahmad!

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umar

Unrecorded Date
Ahmad,
"once again, you mis-directed the question. i ask you again, what does; "and the Believers may increase in Faith" -- how can the believers' faith may increase in the "counting" of the angels????(which is 19)????????? this is MY question. don't dance around it -- answer it. you can trust me when i tell you that it has LONG list of questions that come together. nobody said "reading" or "aknowledging" god says; "LIYASTAYQINA LADIINA AAMANUU IIMAANAA" -- how can that be with the *ciddah* of the angels????? answer it, dear brother."


Ahmed, maybe you have problem of understanding things. I told you that when I read(acknowledge) the Quran (not only "LIYASTAYQINA LADIINA AAMANUU IIMAANAA"), but the WHOLE QURAN, my faith increases. I do not count the verses of the QURAN and I do not count the numbers of angels, because counting them do not increase my faith; however, the reading, the acknowledging and the believing what I'm reading (the whole QURAN) increases my faith of Islam. In other word, when I see and read THE WHOLE QURAN, including the things "that Allah propheciesed(in 74/31)"-----when Allah said that "19 will be BUT A FITNA- for disbelievers-----my faith increase too, because I see the disbelievers of the QURAN (the 19ners) whose FALSE messenger you(Ahmad) said---translated "the closest to the Arabic qur`an" falling for the FITNA of 19. The 19ners and whoever agrees with them are obsessed with 19 and the 19 became a fidna for them. :-)


Ahmad wrote:
"you can trust me when i tell you that it has LONG list of questions that come together."

Do not be shy to ask questions, Ahmad, and stop making excuses. :-)

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Alyisa

Friday, June 16, 2000 - 05:27 pm
dang it was just getting interesting. What happened to Ahmed?

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