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     | Unrecorded Date And let us continue. Please check my final comments.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 02:03 pm: Bashir / Huriwaa I can not believe that two guys who are obviously reasonably intelligent can not undertand this point. You do not choose what to have faith in. That's why it's caled faith. Allah hasn't told me that if I don't believe I will go to hell. Not once. Now the Qur'an says that. But I don't KNOW that the Qur'an is the word of God and neither do you. You believe it. There's a HUGE difference. Not believing something is not an action. It's an inaction. Killing, on the other hand, is an action. You can choose to kill or steal. You don't choose to believe. Either your heart gives you faith that that's the truth or it doesn't. I can't believe you guys can't figure that out. I didn't CHOOSE not to believe the Qur'an. My intellect and my heart tell me it's written by men, not by God. That's not a choice. I could ie to myself and say, yep this is it, better follow it or I'll go to hell. That's just lying to yourself. I'm going to open a new page because this one is too hard to load. I'm calling it Bashir and Huriwaa's page. So answer there.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I have faith in the QURAN and I choose to believe that the QURAN is the Words of Allah. Allah sent prophets and told them to tell people to believe in Him and if people do not they are punished for it. Allah tells His prophets to tell people that it is better for them that they have belief(faith) in Him. Now, why would Allah punish people if people have no choice to believe, especially when He told them through His prophets that it is better for them (people) to have belief in Him, otherwise, they are damned? It does not make sense, MAD MAC, that you say you belief in Allah and his prophets, but not the message to belief or be damned? If you do not believe the Quran as the word of God, then you were lying when you said eariler that you believe Allah's messenger(Mohammed) being a prophet from Allah since the QURAN was revealed to him(Mohammad). The idea that not believing something is not an action AND you wouldn't be damned for it is WRONG. If this notion of yours were the truth, a man like Hitler who did not believe that he was doing wrong need not be punished for his deeds. When you say NO, you take an action. No is a deed, the action of disbelief. The prophets of Allah were rejected when the people they were sent for did not believe these prophets, but that does that mean the action of all these disbeliveers(the deed) is not their fault. Your logic is off beam, MAD MAC. I choose what to have faith in every day. Yes, the heart chooses, but you can not differentiate the heart that people have and people's thinking(their knowledge). I choose people that I know to be good and trustworthy and I have faith in them. I can choose to have reliance (faith) in some people and not others, because there is a reason I do this. Many Christians choose everyday and become Muslims after they read and understood(intellectually) Islam. They have faith in Allah, His Book(the QURAN) and His prophet after they read and they did comparison between Islam and Christianity. MAD MAC, Allah does not accept lies from anybody and it is not better for people to follow lies. When Allah is saying to people it is better that they DO this and it is better that they do NOT DO this, He is giving people a choice---the choice to have a good situation(heaven) or a bad situation(hell). Allah does not give choice the mentally sick person and children. People reject the truth and choose to be rebellion even if they know what they are rejecting is the truth. Are you mentally sick, MAC MAC?
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac. I would like you to share with me a story about people whom you resemble so much that I found it interesting to quote Allah's sayings about them: "And those who have no knowledge say: "Why does not Allah speak to us(face to face) or why does not a sign come to us?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike, We have indeed made plain the signs for people who believe with certainty"2:118 Are you with me MAC?. Read that verse and see how it is obvious you are saying indirectly what those people have said. At least you are better because you told us you are reading the Quran. You see MAC, The Quran is a sign, perhaps the biggest sign one can be satisfied with. Particularly for someone like you who read many books and have a christian background. The Quran differentiates itself from those books in many ways and you can notice that. For you to deny The Quran, you will need to indicate why and with evidence. Untill then there is no point in repeating the same story that you don't believe that the Quran is the word of god. Wait untill you find a solid foundation for your arguments DEAL?. You said; "I can not believe that two guys who are obviously reasonably intelligent can not undertand this point. You do not choose what to have faith in. " Yes you choose Mac. Apart from when you were a kid and your parents were your only example. Now that you are a grown up and can decide things on your own, you can choose whichever faith you want. For example, you told us that you are disenchanted with the christian beleif of trinity WHY?. Because you figured it doesn't agree with your personal instinct Am I right?. And so on and so forth. That is a decision you made for yourself in a clear consceince and no one forced you to think that way. You are free to believe whatever you want and have faith in and ALLAH TOLD YOU THAT IN THE QURAN: "2.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects EVIL and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things." You see MAD, Allah is telling you that no compulsion in religion at the same time if you choose to believe in HIM and reject EVIL you have chosen something good for yourself. You see THE POINT?. You have to behave like the mature adult ALLAH wants you to behave(I am not saying you don't). One who is able to discern facts from fiction and truth from falsehood and so on so forth. Being a human is a blessing itslef. You have the power and the ability to choose for yourself so stop being what you are trying to be which you are not. CHOOSE FOR YOURSLEF. I am wondering why you are afraid to choose for yourself?. You said: "Not believing something is not an action. It's an inaction." Remeber always Mad MAC even at your work you are responsible for what you are detailed to do. If ALLAH told you to worship and he has the right to do so and you don't wanna do it then it is obvious you are planning to take responsibilty for your own refusal. Allah guides those who try. Do you expect your food will come to you walking without you getting up and trying to get to it?. It will never happen. Faith is something you choose for your own self when you are a mature adult who has no defective excuse like madness or any kind of insanity. "2.6 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe". Once somebody makes up his mind, that is it he made up his mind and doesn't wanna be convinced. Isn't that a choice someone has made for himself?. The same way you chose your military career, you can choose your relationship to ALLAH. I know for sure if you try his prayer and guidance , he won't leave you there only later to blame you for your disbelieve. You see what I mean?. You don't have to accept faith simply, but be honest in your quest to find the right one and allah will guide you. In islam faith is different. It is something you choose for yourself. You are responsible for it and ALLAH told us that. He gave the reasons to believe and the reasons not to disbelieve. They are all there in the Quran. Once we read we agreed to it. The Quran is there to be challenged. And whoever rejects and accepts it, gets his decision's outcome in full. There is no other religious book that offers that challenge to it. READ ME AND CHOOSE FOR YOURSELF. No begging, but a clear message that details the outcome of both disbelieve and believe. How just can it get more than that?. Talk to you later.
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| | Unrecorded Date ExterEme. Are you there my atheist freind?. I think you might be reading. Come and join us. Take advantage of what is going on here. You give us what you know and we give you what we know. Others: This discussion is not for a particular people although it has a specific names. All are welcome to join and have their share.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir Your point is well taken with the exception that as you know, I pray daily. Right now I have three things on my prayer list that I am diligent about every day. The first is that he takes care of my girlfriend. I worry about her. The next is that he prevent another huge famine is East Africa (I spend the most time concentrating on that one - it troubles me for reasons I suspect you understand) and then I ask if this is the word of God (The Qur'an). I have yet to receive a clear answer on this but as the saying goes, praying is something we do in our time, the answers come in Gods time. You are also correct in your assumption about my interpretation of the trinity. Although I do think that it's possible Issa had a special status that is not clear to us. I can tell you that the message (not the specifics, the big picture) of the new testament I believe to be what God intended. Such as turn the other cheek which you have told me is not a Islamic philosophy. And I try to follow it, although I admit not always with success. I am essentially a violent man who has spent many years training to be proficient in the art of war. And I am proficient. Now for Huriwaa Dude, listen carefully. Just pretend for a moment that you are not a Muslim - just pretend for a second and then when you're done reading this you can go right back. Clear your mind fom any ideas at all. What I said was "I believe in the God of Abraham and I believe that Mohamed was his prophet." Now, Mohamed was a human. You interpret the word prophet to cannote perfection in the transcription in the word of God, I don't. That's where you and I differ. He was not devine. What I believe is that while the Qur'an was devinely inspired it was written by a human. That means that it is vulnerable to mistakes in transcription. THAT is where you and I differ. God inspired it, he didn't write it. Just like God inspired the Bible. Therefore IN MY OPINION (I can't prove I'm right any more than you can prove you are) it is subject to human error in the same way that the Bible and Torah are. I will be the first to admit that it is more consistent in its message. That having been said I think you know where I see inconsistencies - even if you don't agree. Do you understand what I'm saying? That is why I say you can not ONLY use the Qur'an to convince me in the belief that the Qur'an is correct. I am talking big picture while you want to pick it apart piece by piece, as if we were dissecting it. You following me now? Check what anonymous posted because he made some valid points.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir, If someone lies against Allah’s Words and denies the truth (the QURAN and said the QURAN is INCORRECT) and do not believe the reward or punishment according to good or evil deeds when it comes to him. Does the disbeliever expect from Allah to give him heaven? "Then who does more wrong than one who utters a lie against Allah and denies the truth [this Qur'ân, the Prophet (Muhammad SAW), the Resurrection, and the reward or punishment according to good or evil deeds], when it comes to him. Is there not in Hell an abode for the disbelievers? " (V. 39:32) "And (remember) when We said to the angels: 'Prostrate yourself before Adam.' And they prostrated except Iblis, he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah)." (V. 2:34). Iblis (the devil) refused to accept the Words of Allah---he said he could not understand (intellectually) why it was better for him to do what Allah told him to do. His intellect failed him and he became a disbeliever. But the angels, on the other hand, obeyed and followed Allah's Words even-though they did not understand at first the reason, but they were humble. Their intellect did not fail them. "We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them except with truth and for an appointed term. But those who disbelieve turn away from that whereof they are warned." (V.46:3) "They have made their oaths a screen (for their hypocrisy). Thus they hinder (men) from the Path of Allah. Verily, evil is what they used to do. That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not." (V.63:2-3) "And he went into his garden while in a state (of pride and disbelief) unjust to himself. He said: 'I think not that this will ever perish. And I think not the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back to my Lord (on the Day of Resurrection) I surely shall find better than this when I return to Him.' His companion said to him during the talk with him: 'Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you out of dust (i.e. your father Adam), then out of Nutfah (mixed semen drops of male and female discharge), then fashioned you into a man? But as for my part (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and none shall associate as partner with my Lord.' " (V.18:3538)
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| | Unrecorded Date MAC, I can not pretend and clear my mind from any ideas relating to Allah's Words. It is ingrained in my mind to recognize the truthfulness about Allah's Words when I see it as every human being is ingrained in his or her mind to recognize the truthfulness about Allah's signs. This state of mind is called FITRA. Everyone has IT(unless you are mentally sick or a child). The prophet's are sent to remind people about this FITRA in them, but if people clear from their mind and pretend not to have this FITRA, they are doing what is called KUFUR(rejection). By saying that the WORDS OF ALLAH( the QURAN) is INCORRECT (without telling us what you are talking about) is nothing but KUFUR, especially if YOU can't prove that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. "Then who does more wrong than one who utters a lie against Allah and denies the truth [this Qur'ân, and the reward or punishment according to good or evil deeds], when it comes to him. Is there not in Hell an abode for the disbelievers? " (V. 39:32)
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| | Unrecorded Date ExTrEmE is here. and I will leave again and be back in three weeks or so. So ya'll keep up the discussion. Later.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac. You have your answers in Huriwaa's last postings to me. I think you are just jealous of how the Quran proves itself to be superior than your other lovely books of god which were twisted beyond recognition. And if they could, they would do it the same to the Quran. Yes, you are profficient in killing cold blooded and calling it proffessional to disassociate yourself from the pains and the suffering written on the face of your victims. I think you have to sleep everynight knowing how many people you murdered. "5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." You see that Mad Mac, if you kill an innocent person, it is like you killed all humanity. CALL THAT PROFESSIONAL IF YOU WANT. And yes, we can use the Quran to refute your claims and you can use whatever you have. Let us see what sayings have deep impact on the souls.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir Abdi The fight in Somalia was not our fault. It was the fault of your own people. You must know that. Your people have killed far more of each other than we ever thought of doing. You can criticize us all you want, but the "credit does not go to the critic, or to the man who sits back and points out where the strong man stumbled. The credit goes to the man who is actually in the arena. Who strives valiantly and comes up short again and again. Who at his best knows the exhilieration of great achievement and who at worst, it he fails, at least will not stand with the poor and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." When the war was I on in Somalia I went. We dilvered food to people who looked like walking skeletons. I know, I was there. We delivered seed to farmers. We delivered water to people and cattle that didn't have any. We weren't perfect, but we tried to do the right thing. You know what my reward was for that year? I lost my wife, I experienced terrible events that I think about every day, I lost three friends who were killed there (One American and Two Somali), etc. So before you start judging me you need to walk a few miles in my shoes.
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| | Unrecorded Date By the way, why do you guys analyze religion as if it were a giant game of Stump the Chump. It's not as if any of this can be proven - if it could be proven there would be no discussion. Like gravity and airplanes. We don't have discussions about whether or not a plane will crash if the wings fell off at 20,000 feet. We know it will. It has been readily proven. Religious beliefs require FAITH. If belief in the Qur'an, or any other religion for that matter, didn't require faith then there would be no reaason to discuss it. You guys are looking (when you look at all which in Huriwaas case ain't much) for flaws in other doctrines. I'll bet you open the books looking for where there is inconsistency so you can use that rational to claim it can't be the word of God. As if we could assume we understand his methodologies at all. What is obvious in these discussions is your total inability to be objective. You've made up your mind and those who don't agree are just a bunch of stupid Ku'faars who will burn in hell. This approach is what gives Islam a very poor reputation in 21st century western civilization. You've got to recognize the legitimacy that other points of view can not simply be dismissed. Failure to do that gives others the impression that you're narrow minded slobs - and I'm sure you really aren't.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, Whether or not religion can or can not be proven is not the point. If it were, you would not have brought into the discussion your CLAIM that the QURAN IS INCORRECT without prove. What is obvious in this discussion is your total inability to be objective. You expect from the Muslims to accept your CLAIM without challenges---that is stupid and narrow minded sloppiness on your part.
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| | Unrecorded Date By the way, MAD MAC, maybe you need sensitivity training or reality check so you would not claim something that you can not prove the next time you try to throw some cheap shots at the BOOK Muslims hold high.
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| | Unrecorded Date The QURAN: "It is clear revelation in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny Our revelations save wrong-doers." 29:49 Muslims and the Unbelievers: "And when there comes to them a matter of security or fear they broadcast it; but if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority amongst them, then those of them who can think would know it; but were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy you would have followed Satan, save a few." 4:83 WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THE QUR'AN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Humanity has received the Divine guidance through two channels: firstly the word of Allah, secondly the Prophets who were chosen by Allah to communicate His will to human beings. These two things have always been going together and attempts to know the will of Allah by neglecting either of these two have always been misleading. The Hindus neglected their prophets and paid all attention to their books that proved only word puzzles which they ultimately lost. Similarly, the Christians, in total disregard to the Book of Allah, attached all importance to Christ and thus not only elevated him to Divinity, but also lost the very essence of TAWHEED (monotheism) contained in the Bible. As a matter of fact the main scriptures revealed before the Qur'an, i.e., the Old Testament and the Gospel, came into book-form long after the days of the Prophets and that too in translation. This was because the followers of Moses and Jesus made no considerable effort to preserve these Revelations during the life of their Prophets. Rather they were written long after their death. Thus what we now have in the form of the Bible (The Old as well as the New Testament) is translations of individuals' accounts of the original revelations which contain additions and deletions made by the followers of the said Prophets. On the contrary, the last revealed Book, the Qur'an, is extant in its original form. Allah Himself guaranteed its preservation and that is why the whole of the Qur'an was written during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself though on separate pieces of palm leaves, parchments, bones, etc... Moreover, there were tens of thousands of companions of the Prophet who memorized the whole Qur'an and the Prophet himself used to recite to the Angel Gabriel once a year and twice in the year he died. The first Caliph Abu Bakr entrusted the collection of the whole Qur'an in one volume to the Prophet's scribe, Zaid Ibn Thabit. This volume was with Abu Bakr till his death. Then it was with the second Caliph Umar and after him it came to Hafsa, the Prophet's wife. It was from this original copy that the third Caliph Uthman prepared several other copies and sent them to different Muslim territories. The Qur'an was so meticulously preserved because it was to be the Book of guidance for humanity for all times to come. That is why it does not address the Arabs alone in whose language it was revealed. It speaks to man as a human being: "O Man! What has seduced you from your Lord." The practicability of the Qur'anic teachings is established by the examples of Muhammad (PBUH) and the good Muslims throughout the ages. The distinctive approach of the Qur'an is that its instructions are aimed at the general welfare of man and are based on the possibilities within his reach. In all its dimensions the Qur'anic wisdom is conclusive. It neither condemns nor tortures the flesh nor does it neglect the soul. It does not humanize God nor does it deify man. Everything is carefully placed where it belongs in the total scheme of creation. Actually the scholars who allege that Muhammad (PBUH) was the author of the Qur'an claim something which is humanly impossible. Could any person of the sixth century C.E. utter such scientific truths as the Qur'an contains? Could he describe the evolution of the embryo inside the uterus so accurately as we find it in modern science? Secondly, is it logical to believe that Muhammad (PBUH), who up to the age of forty was marked only for his honesty and integrity, began all of a sudden the authorship of a book matchless in literary merit and the equivalent of which the whole legion of the Arab poets and orators of highest calibre could not produce? And lastly, is it justified to say that Muhammad (PBUH) who was known as AL-AMEEN (The Trustworthy) in his society and who is still admired by the non-Muslim scholars for his honesty and integrity, came forth with a false claim and on that falsehood could train thousands of men of character, integrity and honesty, who were able to establish the best human society on the surface of the earth? Surely, any sincere and unbiased searcher of truth will come to believe that the Qur'an is the revealed Book of Allah. Without necessarily agreeing with all that they said, we furnish here some opinions of important non-Muslim scholars about the Qur'an. Readers can easily see how the modern world is coming closer to reality regarding the Qur'an. We appeal to all open-minded scholars to study the Qur'an in the light of the aforementioned points. We are sure that any such attempt will convince the reader that the Qur'an could never be written by any human being. "However often we turn to it [the Qur'an] at first disgusting us each time afresh, it soon attracts, astounds, and in the end enforces our reverence... Its style, in accordance with its contents and aim is stern, grand, terrible - ever and anon truly sublime -- Thus this book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence." --Goethe, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p. 526. "The Koran admittedly occupies an important position among the great religious books of the world. Though the youngest of the epoch-making works belonging to this class of literature, it yields to hardly any in the wonderful effect which it has produced on large masses of men. It has created an all but new phase of human thought and a fresh type of character. It first transformed a number of heterogeneous desert tribes of the Arabian peninsula into a nation of heroes, and then proceeded to create the vast politico-religious organizations of the Muhammadan world which are one of the great forces with which Europe and the East have to reckon today." --G. Margoliouth, Introduction to J.M. Rodwell's, THE KORAN, New York: Everyman's Library, 1977, p. vii. "A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader - distant as to time, and still more so as a mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production of the human mind indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind." --Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, pp. 526-527. "The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?" --Maurice Bucaille, THE BIBLE, THE QUR'AN AND SCIENCE, 1978, p. 125. "Here, therefore, its merits as a literary production should perhaps not be measured by some preconceived maxims of subjective and aesthetic taste, but by the effects which it produced in Muhammad's contemporaries and fellow countrymen. If it spoke so powerfully and convincingly to the hearts of his hearers as to weld hitherto centrifugal and antagonistic elements into one compact and well-organized body, animated by ideas far beyond those which had until now ruled the Arabian mind, then its eloquence was perfect, simply because it created a civilized nation out of savage tribes, and shot a fresh woof into the old warp of history." --Dr. Steingass, quoted in T.P. Hughes' DICTIONARY OF ISLAM, p. 528. "In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pains to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which - apart from the message itself - constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind... This very characteristic feature - 'that inimitable symphony,' as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, 'the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy' - has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and flat indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original." --Arthur J. Arberry, THE KORAN INTERPRETED, London: Oxford University Press, 1964, p. x. "A totally objective examination of it [the Qur'an] in the light of modern knowledge, leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has been already noted on repeated occasions. It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad's time to have been the author of such statements on account of the state of knowledge in his day. Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur'anic Revelation its unique place, and forces the impartial scientist to admit his inability to provide an explanation which calls solely upon materialistic reasoning." --Maurice Bucaille, THE QUR'AN AND MODERN SCIENCE, 1981, p. 18. QUR'AN ON QUR'AN "Hence, indeed, We made this Qur'an easy to bear in mind: who, then is willing to take it to heart?" --Chapter 54: Verses 17, 22, 32, 40 (self-repeating) "Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on their hearts?" --Chapter 47: Verse 24 "Surely this Qur'an guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good works that they shall have a great reward." --Chapter 17: Verse 9 "Surely We have revealed the reminder (Qur'an) and We will most certainly guard it (from corruption)." --Chapter 15: Verse 9 "Praise be to Allah Who has revealed the Book (Qur'an) to His slave (Muhammad) and has not placed therein any crookedness." --Chapter 18: Verse 1 "Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much discrepancy." Chapter 4: Verse 82 "And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example; and man is most of all given to contention. And nothing prevents men from believing when the guidance comes to them, and asking forgiveness of their Lord, except that what happened to the ancients should overtake them, or that the chastisement should come face to face with them." --Chapter 18: Verses 54-55 "And We reveal (stage by stage) of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers, and to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss." --Chapter 17: Verse 82 "And if you are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad) then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof, and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful." --Chapter 2: Verse 23 "And this Qur'an is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification (of revelations) that went before it and a fuller explanation of the Book - there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds." --Chapter 10: Verse 37 "So when you recite the Qur'an, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast." --Chapter 16: Verse 98.
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| | Unrecorded Date To Mad MAC- You wrote: "You've made up your mind and those who don't agree are just a bunch of stupid Ku'faars who will burn in hell. This approach is what gives Islam a very poor reputation in 21st century Western civilization. You've got to recognize the legitimacy that other points of view can not simply be dismissed." LIKE THE XTIANS ACCEPT OTHER POINTS OF VIEW????? Don't they say that "all those who do not accept christ will burn in hell"????? A soldier emulating an intellectual... I shudder at the concept.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo You would be surprised how many soldiers really are intellectuals. Also, we're not debating Christian thought here - although it sometimes neccessarily gets in the way. While I understand that Christianity has a terrible history of intolerance, post reformation Christianity was the home to the age of enlightenment which allows for all freedom of expression. For instance I can (and have) go to a Christian Church and argue that Christ is not the son of God. That this doctrine is not logical. That the trinity is a flawed concept (Huriwaa when I discuss the Trinity with you it's to use it as an example of differing thought - not because I believe in it). No one threw me out of the bulding, or cursed at me, or whatever. They listened and made their own arguments in suppost of their beliefs. If I were to go into a Mosque and start arguing for the Trinity whoa!!!! look out. It would be ugly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything is wrong with Moslems or Islamic thought - hell I believe in most of it. I just think that Huriwaa here should react more with his intellect and less with his emotion. Huriwaa Man, if I didn't know better I would think YOU wrote the Qur'an. Your entries get longer every time. Holy Cow!!!! Stop obsessing about whether or not I believe the "Qur'an is Incorrect". That isn't my central theme. What I really said was that I don't think the Qur'an is totally correct - not the same thing as the Qur'an is incorrect, which would imply that none of it is correct. The parts I reject aren't because they aren't scientific enough, or their logic trains are flawed, it's mostly the TONE I object to as well as the all or nothing approach that echoes through it.
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| | Unrecorded Date Well, Mad Mac badly needs some refreshments from his christian brethren history and their lust for muslim blood. "For you must hasten to carry aid to your brethren dwelling in the East, who need your help, which they have often asked. For the Turks, a Persian people, have attacked them I exhort you with earnest prayer - not I, but God - that, as heralds of Christ, you urge men by frequent exhortation, men of all ranks, knights as well as foot soldiers, rich as well as poor, to hasten to exterminate this vile race from the lands of your brethren Christ commands it. And if those who set out thither should lose their lives on the way by land, or in crossing the sea, or in fighting the pagans, their sins shall be remitted. Oh what a disgrace, if a race so despised, base, and the instrument of demons, should so overcome a people endowed with faith in the all-powerful God, and resplendent with the name of Christ. Let those who have been accustomed to make private war against the faithful carry on to a successful issue a war against the infidels. Let those who for a long time have been robbers now become soldiers of Christ. Let those who fought against brothers and relatives now fight against these barbarians. Let them zealously undertake the journey under the guidance of the Lord" The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eye Witnesses and Participants (Gloucester, Massachusetts: Peter Smith, 1958). Mad Mac, Now tell me giving thieves redemtion through the blood of muslims speaks of good character and wonderful name for christianity. I think you forgot the pope had to apologize for the past christian sins and crimes committed by them. Like that isn't a bad reputation huh?.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac says: "You guys are looking (when you look at all which in Huriwaas case ain't much) for flaws in other doctrines". Actually it is Allah who tells us Muslims about THE FLAWS and LIES christians and JEWS added to the books of GOD and Here is what Allah said about them: "And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their places and have abandoned a good part of the message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook(their misdeed). Verily! Allah loves the kindly". The Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):13. There you have it Mad Mac, Allah is telling us from the past history of christians and Jews and how they changed the words of god from their places and added words of their own to the bible to suit their mind and needs. Sometimes they even went too far as to insult Allah himself and attribute to him lies which are unfounded. Like Allah was tired when he built the earth and heavens, Like Allah wrestled with Jonah(I think). You see such stupid lies about Allah is what makes the christian and jewish books UGLY. And Allah told their mischief and wrong doings. If you have a proplem with the Quran such as those cheap lies and ugly attributes which a sane mind can't agree with LET US SEE AND STOP GIVING EXCUSES MAD. Show US WHAT YOU GOT, COME FORTH WITH YOUR EVIDENCE. Christians and Jews tampered with their books so bad that the reasonble person rejects them as the books of god. Allah advised muslims not to be like those people who falsified and lied about ALLAH. They earned bad reputation in the sight of Allah and Allah said about them: "62.5 The similitude of those who were entrusted with the (obligations of) Taurát (Mosaic Law), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah: and Allah guides not people who do wrong." So, Allah entrusted us with the Quran and wants us to uphold it above all whatever names YOU PERSONALLY GIVE THEM. And not to be like that example of christians and jews.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, If you knew better, you would have understood what I've been telling you---that the Quran is Allah's Words without incorrectness. You say that your central theme is not about your baseless CLAIM about the Quran, but that is a lie. You and I have been going at each other about this issue and now you are claiming that you are not claiming that the Quran is incorrect.! Not only are you lying, but you are double talking, MAD MAC. You have been trying to discredit the Quran and I've been telling you that you have no case against the Quran (but just goofing). Here are examples that show your baseless claim against the Quran: "the more I read the more I become convinced that all of the great book are correct and all are incorrect"---"Now I'll bet you if I work at it I can find inconsitencies in the Qu'ran." That's because language is an imperfect medium for expression. And that is why I would take umbrage at the idea that "The Qu'ran is never incorrect."----I definately believe the qur'an is vulnerable to errors in transcription and intial writing as all the other Holy Books were." MAD MAC, you say you object and have problem with the TONE of the Quran as well as the all or nothing approach that echoes through it, but that is your view of the Quran. I think I told you before that the Quran was not revealed to satisfy your desire and mine. The Quran (like it or not) is both a guidance and a mercy from Allah and no one is forcing down on your throat (LAKUM DIINAKUM WALIYADIIN). The prophet (pbuh) was both BASHIIRAN WA NADIIR (warner and giver of glad tiding). You also said earlier that you have problem with Islam because Islam gives a very poor reputation in 21st century Western civilization, but again, MAD MAC, Islam is not to cater anyone's gratification or desire. Isalm (the QURAN) is a Law of Allah. During the prophet's time, people had the same reaction about Islam and Quran when they heard it from the prophet. Like you, the Arab pagans thought that Islam was harsh on them and that they could do anything they want to without accountability in the hereafter. The prophet (pbuh) said that Islam was STRANGE to the people (the pagan Arabs) and Islam will be STRANGE to the people who are to come in the future. The prophet also said that while reciting the QURAN LAA TAMUUTUUNA ILAA WA ANTUM MUSLIMIIN--do not die except as Muslims. He also said that Allah will not accept any religion other than ISLAM. Therefore, MAD MAC, know that, in Islam, there is no such thing as deeds without accountability. The motto is take it or leave it(LAKUM DIINA KUM WALIYA DIIN---LAA'IKRAA FI'DIIN). However, if you come to us and tell us that the Quran is INCORRECT, you will hear from us (like it or not). Don't expect that we will not tell you that you are WRONG.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac- Please please please stop elluding your self. You say I can walk into a church and denounce the trinity and still be welcomed????? What utter nonsense! Have you dealt with the Xtains of late- with all their right wing Xtian propaganda? There is no tolerance in their mission- specifically toward muslims. Never has been and never will be. They would rather listen to the dalia lama theorizing about life then hear you quote the Quran! So before you start criticizing muslims for being intolerant look at your own co-faith holders! If you come to an Islam forums and start posting "maybes" and "could be's"- you are definite to get "musts" and "shoulds"... Regardless of which religion we are speaking of, tolerance and faith were never known to be the same- and that was my entire point. And....I still haven't met a soldier with an intellect worth mentioning!
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| | Unrecorded Date Let me start with Bashir. Man you guys sure don't lack for verbiage. Abowe, you do recall that I started with old Christian history was not tolerant, that tolerance began as a concept after the reformation? You quote is from the Crusades!!!! Not exactly the wests brightest chapter. Now again on my objections you are trying to play stump the chump. You guys aren't listening to the context of what I say. You all are so focussed on each tree you can't see the forest. Which just goes to show that even though we all speak English, we do not speak the same language. You have to remember that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONE SOURCE AND ONLY ONE SOURCE FOR GODS MESSAGE. Never have, never will. I put all messages into historical context. Incidetnally, Huriwaa you have yet to comment on the book of Mormon, in which you will have a hard time finding inconsitency. Since it is only 170 years ago its message is much more recent - and the mormons, like the Moslems, just love using scientific examples which were subsequently proven after the book was written as proof it must have come from God. Huriwaa, what you have not understood in all of our exchanges is for me, not accepting the Qur'an as the only word of God (which obviously it's not since some parts of the Bible and Torah are the same) does not mean I don't think any of it is the word of God. I think we can agree to disagree on this last point. You believe the Qur'an is the Alpha and the Omega and I don't. You're comfortable with your position and I'm comfortable with mine. Now, the story I related before was the truth. I'm sure there are freak shows who close their minds (particularly once you get south of the Mason Dixon Line) and don't allow for open discourse. But not where I grew up. Remember I grew up in a Christian family and I did not get baptized and I have always argued against the trinity in Church and yet my old Church still has group prayers every time I deploy to hope I don't get killed or whatever. In the aggragate you are correct - tolerance and faith often aren't spoken of together. And that's my entire point. They should be.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I think I commented on the book of Mormons. I told you that if that book says that Allah is three in one and if that BOOK says that Mohammad is not the last prophet of Allah, I do not need it, because it is inconsistent with the book (the Quran) I believe. I also told you that I'm not going to the Mormon's forums so I can I tell them that their BOOK IS INCORRECT. That would be disrepecting their belief. However, you coming to here and saying to the Muslims that the Quran is INCORRECT without telling us what you are talking about is nothing but an unintelligent utterance from your part and disrepectful. I understand what you said about the Quran. I understand that you do not accept the Quran as the only Word of Allah; I understand that you accept some parts of the Quran and not all of the QURAN, but you did not tell us what parts of the QURAN you do not accept or what part in the Quran you found it to be INCORRECT. Yes, MAD MAC, I’m comfortable with my position that the whole QURAN is an inviolable, but it seems to me that you are not comfortable with your claim ( your position that the QURAN is INCORRECT), because you have not showed us from the QURAN anything that backs up your claim. You are just throwing some cheap shots at the QURAN, that is all and you are disrepecting our intelligence(also our faith). I told you that you need sensitivity training or at least it is better that you bring something to base your claim against the QURAN the next time you try to throw some cheap shots at the BOOK Muslims hold HIGH. “Do you believe in a part of the Book and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except humiliation in this life, and on the Day of Resurrection, they will be consigned to the most grievous torment !"--Al-Baqarah.
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa Are you looking for me to cite verses in the Qur'an that are inconsistent or that I don't agree with. I've already told you the root message I don't agree with - that the Qur'an is the only word of God. Therefore any passages that say it is, or that Mohamed is the last prophet, I would disagree with. Any passage that talks about fire and brimstone I would also disagree with - because I don't believe in heaven and hell as such. I could go on, but you get the point. I can't prove the Qur'an is incorrect, I can only tell you what I believe. Just as you can not prove otherwise. That's what faith is all about. And open discussion of beliefs entails no disrespect. Feel free to go to a Mormon home page and discuss your views with them. Huriwaa the indespensible - That's called freedom of expression. It's your right dude!!
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I'm not looking for anything, but you are the one who said to me "I'll bet you if I work at it I can find inconsistencies in the Qur'an"----"one can only prove there are inconsistencies". However, what I'm telling you is that you can NOT show in the Quran any inconsistencies, even if you wanted to and even if you don't agree with what the Quran says. I'm telling you that you are just goofing. If you can't prove the Qur'an is incorrect, that does not mean you are correct when you say that the Quran is incorrect. Did you think by saying the Quran is incorrect, we will believe your claim? Also, if you don't believe in heaven and hell, you do not believe an accountability. If you do not believe in heaven and hell, you do not believe Allah to be both a Merciful and the JUST God. We Muslims believe that there is such a thing called accountability that will happen in a day that is called YOOMUL QIYAAMA (the Day of Judgment). MAD MAC, I hold people of different beliefs in the same regard I want them to hold me, but if they disrespect and throw some cheap shots at my belief (without prove), I'll not respect them. Therefore, no, MAD MAC, I would not go to a Mormon home page and tell them that their book is INCORRECT. Although I do not believe their book, I respect them and would not hurt their feeling. I know that I have the right to express my point of view, but I'm not that small-minded of a person who would go to someone’s home and tell him or her that what they believe is INCORRECT, especially if I’m not presenting anything that disproves their belief. That is not a discussion; it is an insensitive approuch to things (or just goofing around)
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| | Unrecorded Date Huriwaa You WILL NOT HURT THEIR feelings if you go to their home page and discourse with them. It's one thing to state your beliefs. Now you might get an adverse reaction if you went there and said "You're all a bunch of infidels and will burn in hell." OK, that might be a little harsh. But if you werre to go there and explain your views they would likely want to hear them - even if you stated the book of Mormon can not be correct because the Qur'an says that Mohamed is the last prophet. You are perceiving insult where there is none. Now, I did not say I don't believe in accuntability. I said I don't believe in heaven and hell. That's not the same thing. Also, I'm not sure what happens when we die. But I'm not convinced it's a day of judgement as such. I am convinced it's not something to be feared. Just to make you happy I am going to look for an inconsistency in the Qur'an. It ain't going to happen over night - it's a book worthy of Tolstoy. I think whatever happens to your soul is more complicated than we comprehend. I do believe in life after death - that is if you didn't perform well in round one you have to come back and try again. And I have yet to see that anywhere in the Qur'an or the Bible. Anyway, I could go on here but let me go look for inconsistencies to keep you happy. And stop perceiving insults where there are none. And I urge you to expound your beliefs with non-Muslims. They don't get any exposure to Islam.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I WILL NOT HURT THEIR feelings if I just go to their home page and discourse with them their beliefs, but if I only went there and said that their BOOK IS INCORRECT (without telling them what I'm talking about), I will look a fool to them. They would know that I am just GOOFING AROUND without having RESPECT for their beliefs, because I did not come to their home to discuss things and teach them what they did not know, but to insult their intelligence and their beliefs. They will then ask me why am I just CLAIMING that their BOOK IS INCORRECT without bringing onto the discussion any inconsistencies that would make their BOOK INCORRECT. They will ask me to explain the INCORRECTNESS that I found in their BOOK. If I do not show anything that may prove incorrectness in their book, they would know that I'm the one who is INCORRECT about their BELIEFS. MAD MAC, I told you that at least it was better that you brought forward any inconsistencies you found in the Quran---maybe then----we would not have considered you a fool---that you were not just goofing and disrespecting our BOOK. MAD MAC, you logic saying that if a man like Hitler did NOT believe that he was doing anything wrong, he will come back to the world (after he died) so he can perform well in round one and try again to do better. Is his accountability to come back to the world and believe that he believed was WRONG? Since you do not believe in heaven and hell and since you believe people will come back to the world (incarnation) to do better, are you saying that dead and incarnation is the accountablity? If you do not believe in heaven and hell, what accountability are you talking about?
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| | Unrecorded Date Indispensable Saahib, I can see you are having a hell of a time following me here. I did not say that there is no accountability. What I said was that we don't understand what the rules are. Even when you read the Qur'an it is clear that when God judges it's not simply a case of if A then B. Read it carefully and later I will cite you some good examples. Only Allah really knows how the whole judgement thing works. Did it ever occur to you that maybe you are in hell now? That this is it. Think of all the trials and tribulations you go through here. Or that maybe this is one plane of existence but there might be others - both better and worse. Or maybe just different. I mean, the Qur'an doesn't go into much detail on this point. Maybe Allah kept it simple on purpose. Now I have some SUSPICIONS, I suspect some things are true. But beyong believing that Issa and Mohamed and Joseph Smith were Gods prophets and that there is a God, after that I'm wide open. I don't "believe" anything. I have suspicions, postulations, none of which I can prove or am trying to prove. I listen, I read, I talk and most importantly I pray. That's enough for me. Part of my philosophy in life is you can never be exposed to too much. You would say that anything beyond the Qur'an (in terms of religion) is blasphemous. I would not. You would say that other philophies that contradict the Qur'an are not valid. It's OK, saahib, in any public forums, to have a difference of opinion. And I suspect we will have more in the future. Oh yeah, and reference your Hitler example. I don't know what happened to him, but if I were a betting man - and I am - I would bet it's not good. Now you've got to remember how this conversation evolved. I didn't just jump in here and say in big capital letters THE QUR'AN IS INCORRECT. It started with a discussion about the big bang and evolved from there. So stop being so damn sensitive. You tell me what you think and I tell you what I think. That's called a conversation. I may not agree with you and you may not agree with me and that's OK. Nothing to get insulted over. If I were to say "Huriwaa, you're just a dumbass motherfucker if you believe that ••••." OK that's insulting. But if I say I'm skeptical that eveything in the Qur'an is the direct word of God, that's not insulting at all. That's me stating a belief. No big deal.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC, I am not having a hell of a time following you and I hope I'm not bothering you. I did not say that you disbelieve there is an accountability. I just asked you if you do not believe in heaven and hell, what accountability are you talking about and who is accounting whom or judging whom? I mean if you were a betting man (which you are) and if you believe the position of a man like Hitler is not a good place, who put him there? Is God punishing him? And why? Is not God Just and Merciful? On the contrary to your thinking, the Quran is very clear about what is an accountability and what is the Day of Judgement is. Accountablility and Judgement is one of the articles of faith for the Muslims to believe. Yes, Only Allah really knows how the whole judgement thing works, but this world and the hereafter are not the same. This world is neither a hell or heaven. I'm sure if you read the Quran, you would find in the QURAN where it talks about the Day of Judgement and the hell and the heaven being out of this world. Maybe you have not read the Qur'an----that is why you are CLAIMING that the Quran doesn't go into much detail on this point. Maybe my brother Bashir can find for you in the Quran the many places where Allah is talking about the accountability and the difference between this world and the hereafter. Also, if you would have read the Quran, you would have noticed that there is no prophet after Mohamad (pbuh) and that there is no prophet called Joseph Smith who is to come after Mohamad. I do not care if you jump in here and there or if you said one time in big small letters that THE QUR'AN IS INCORRECT. It takes only ONE TIME for you CLAIM that the QURAN IS INCORRECT. If you tell me one time that the QURAN IS INCORRECT, I'm going to demand from you to show me the inconsistency you said that makes the QURAN INCORRECT. If you can not bring anything that backs up your CLAIM, I'm going to tell you that you are a fool. Only a fool person like you thinks he is doing conversation with the Muslims by telling them that their BOOK is INCORRECT without showing them any inconsistance he says he found in the Qu'ran. If you were to say "Huriwaa, is a dumbass motherfucker, I would have ignored you; it is not a big deal to me that you insult me alone. However, by trying to discredit the QURAN and saying that the QURAN IS INCORRECT, you are not only insulting the many Muslims who read your CLAIM, but you are insulting something that is more than me. If you had respect for our religion and if you were sincere about your skeptical views of the Qur'an---being the direct word of God, you would have asked questions. But what did you do instead of that? You are disrespecting our belief by saying that the Quran is INCORRECT and the QURAN is INCONSISTANCE without prove.--------This is very senseless of you, MAD MAC. Do not expect to accept your CLAIM just like that and do not axpect to respect you for talking like that. I'm looking forward your finding and the inconsistance you said you will bring to back up your CLAIM.
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| | Unrecorded Date Interesting to read.
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| | Unrecorded Date I agree, anonymous
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| | Unrecorded Date I am trying to post a message today for the tenth time and it won't work. Internal server error whatever that is. Guys I hope this gets through and if it does I am reading enjoying what you right. Take care.
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| ExTrEmE....postin'.......only in 24 houres....but now I'm going to sleep....sorry! | Unrecorded Date What the hell is this. &%$# THIS SITE. FINALLY I COME BACK AND THEN THIS INTERNAL MESSAGE &%$# IS COMIN'. I got a real good remark and insights sorry.
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