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Tribalism; the best bet...

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Sept. 29, 2000): Tribalism; the best bet...
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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
Tribalism; the best bet...

May 20, 2000.

Ahmad Ali


LOS ANGELES, CA. - Today, after years of being an advocate of a "islamic state" -- i came to the conclusion that for Somali reality, that was not the case. i was willing to live under any kind of a islamic state -- based on any kind of islamic sect. and even though i was always advocate of free speach and expression, i was still up for any kind of islamic state. however, lately, after clear look on the people...and their culture and the way we, as somalis, look out life, i realized that 'islamic' state was simply a joke. it could never be something that the somalis would be happy with...for the following reasons;


a; somalis are nothing but tribist creatures...

a somali is always tribist. even when we don't admit it -- and even when we don't realize it. we are still tribists. and the good news about that -- is that there is nothing wrong with it...as long as it stays positive. while i love my own tribe and always am curious of any kind of history of it, i still do not hate anyone because of tribe -- and i never judge anyone because of tribe. some somalis did terrible things to my family, but i blamed those very individuals and to this day do not blame anyone else for that. there are millions of us like that -- but there are millions of us just the very opposite.

b; we are where we wanted to be...

as hard as we try to ignore that, it is very true. we are where we are today -- because it is where we wanted to be. siyaad barre and 'reer kooshin' was simply a way to get to that 'place'. while hawiyya was pushing the envelope because of 'daarrood' -- some of the daarrood themselves were pushing the envlope because of 'mareehaan' -- some of the mareehaan themselves were pushing the envlope because of 'reer kooshin'. you see the pattern? we, all, somalis -- at one point or another...felt cheated. and that 'cheatness' was not because of factual but because of the fact 'our tribe' was not the 'head'.

c; we are happiest in destruction when there is no tribal look on...

that is very true. most somalis are happy today -- with governmentless, healthless, famine, war, ETC -- because there is no 'one' to look up for. all the tribes are at the same mat...they all on the floor. and it's 'whoever' that can...and 'whoever' that can't. can/can't survive. and, what is more amazing, EVERY tribe is doing their darnes to keep it THIS way.

**************************************************


with the above said, i came to the conclussion that the best government, which our people would be all happy with, would be a TRIBAL based government. meaning -- no president...with all minsters -- chosen for/by/of/on each tribe in somalia. each tribe may have 5 minsters. and all those minsters maybe the head of the government -- all choosing/voting the laws that are passed for the government.

through this, i realized soemthing else -- an islamic state can be WITHIN that. meaning, that they would always decide on islam -- again...all voting with their different ideas/sects/beliefs. and the most votes would win. this would mean...that somalia would be a sunni state. so be it. for me, it's much much much much much better than a governmentless and/or wicked government that claimed to have been 'democracy' when it was not...but only re-wrote history itself.

one thing i know for sure -- tribal dispute would dissapear...and tribal blaming would vanish. when and if any tribe tried to protest against laws passed -- the answer would be; "see your misters" and that alone. all minsters would keep up with their tribal members...and they would agree with what would be passed which would be best for that tribe. truly, all somalis -- would be happy with such government. because it is so tribal-fair...that it would flourish. and because it is somewhat islamic -- it would make somali muslims happy.

after the somali state was constructed and was in growth and wealth(OK -- maybe that would take a thousand years) then maybe our other people would join us(such as ogaden, djabuti, somaliland, etc) and we could all go back to being the 'land of somalia'


what do you think? would this work?


peace and love - ahmad!

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
If Somali style Islamic State goverment would not help Somalis get rid of their "tribist" mentality, do you think that any Somali style Secular State government would help Somalis get rid of their "tribist" metality?

"These Lords Of Tribalism Are Africa's Curse
Story Filed: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:00 AM EST
Nairobi (The Nation, May 21, 2000) - What is a man in my position expected to do? Am I - a la Christopher Okigbo - supposed to put down the pen, get sworn into the Njuri Ncheke, and go and throw rocks at market women in the streets of Isiolo? What then, would I say I am fighting for? That the market women have unfairly knocked up the price of a kilo of miraa? Were it not for the tragedy of a people wasting their time and resources in a stupid cause, one would be intensely tempted to sit back and enjoy the comedy of the all too frequent tribal skirmishes. For there is plenty of comedy just beneath the tragedy (or is it tragedy beneath the comedy?) Now, ethnic identification - manifest, in most respects, as tribalism - is one of the most bogus concepts I have ever come across. I have heard many arguments over these many years, mostly from haggard intellectuals, that ethnicity can be a boon for nationalism. These theories - in the warm confines of Lecture Room 17, Level 2, Roger Stevens Building, the course being Anthro 101 - taste very theoretical when you place them in the real world of Kisangani, Sebrenica or Belfast. For if there is anything I have proved beyond the faintest shadow of a doubt - and I dare anybody, the haggard intellectuals included, to challenge me on this - it is that ethnic identification has never brought any good to any society known to mankind. There are people who are paid to split hairs, that is their daily job. But when you put ethnicity and other modes of primordial identification on the balance, the difference between people of one tribe and those of the nextexists only in the heads of tribalists. It is not in the genes; it is not in the language, it is not in the religion, the culture, the shape of forehead, the size of lips, the height; it is not in anything in the physical realm.

*Our neighbours in Somalia have the rather interesting distinction of being the only country in Africa without a state. It is just a geographical chapati in which warlords loose off their guns and call one another names over a bunch of khat. As far as we know, the Somali share everything that could be used to distinguish one from the next. The only difference is that they think they know that they are different. And for that, they are willing to die and destroy their country.*

*One Irishman, working in a construction site in Tadcaster, is as Irish as his mate who operates the crane - they drawl the same brogue. They dote on the same potatoes. Their heads are equally as hot as Mt Vesuvius. They wouldn't sleep without a pint of Guinness in their belly. Their only reason for going to war comes on Sunday - one goes for mass, the other for service. Correction. The majority have never been inside a church and wouldn't tell you if the preacher delivers the sermon standing on his head. They just know that they are either Catholic or Protestant.*

And on that flimsy basis, they have created a whole edifice of difference, one in which the Catholics take one political position, the Protestants the opposite. They have created legends, myths, grievances, heroes. They have created a situation where war appears to be a very appealing alternative. You may think that this is an appalling simplification of an age-old feud, but then you would be splitting hairs, wouldn't you? The problem in Isiolo is not scarcity of resources, real as that is. Neither is it that the Somali have invaded another district. The problem is that local leaders believe that whatever resources are available should be shared not on the basis of objective competition, but on the basis of tribe. None of the leaders fanning tribal animosity in various parts of this country can even begin to comprehend a situation where resources can come up for grabs on a basis other than tribe. When a leader argues that Kenyans are free to make a living in any part of the country, this is invariably not an expression of allegiance to the concept of a nation in which all are equal and free. It is another way of saying Kenyans have a right to own land and businesses anywhere in the country so long as they don't come to "our" region. Neither Mr. Charfano Mokku nor those who oppose his views can conceive of Kenya as being "ours" in a corporate, collective sense. They see it as a composite bastard, made up of segments, each owned by the Turkana, Marakwet, Kikuyu, Somali or whatever - with members owing priority allegiance to their particular segment. That is the curse of Africa. And if you are wondering why the rate of growth of black Africa is around 3 per cent heading for the socks, then that is the place to start. And how are we going to crawl out of this hole? Well, don't ask me difficult questions. All I can say is that tribalism is the ideology of the lazy and those without ability - those who seek free, easy things. It is the mother of all corruption, the dunderheads in high places and the borderline cretins driving stretch limousines, the mother of a wasteful regime of inequality and mediocrity. So what is a man in my position to do? Simple. Condemn Christopher Okigbo in the most emphatic tone and tell tribal warriors wherever they may be in this good country to get off their lazy backsides and take pride in earning a living rather than expecting free, tribal things."
Copyright © 2000 The Nation. Distributed via Africa News Online.

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/australasia

Tribal council to review Fijian government in wake of coup. Coup leader George Speight, center, is guarded by an armed man in the capital, Suva, on Tuesday. Sitiveni Rabuka, head of the Great Council of Chiefs, said Tuesday the council's 40 members oppose an ongoing attempt by George Speight to throw out Prime Minister Mahendra Chaudhry, the country's first elected ethnic Indian leader. After daylong talks Tuesday, the council agreed that Speight and an armed gang should free Chaudhry and other hostages held in the parliament building in Suva, the capital.
Rabuka, however, said the council is willing to consider Speight's demand for constitutional changes that would allow only indigenous Fijians to hold the posts of prime minister and president.

Ethnic groups at odds
Speight and about a half-dozen armed men stormed the parliament Friday, seizing Chaudhry, Cabinet ministers and others. In recent days they have freed some hostages, but they continue to occupy the building and hold about 10 people. On Monday, gunmen paraded Chaudhry onto the lawn, holding a gun to his head. Reports conflict about whether the kidnappers have beaten the prime minister. A failed businessman and son of an opposition lawmaker, Speight has declared himself prime minister. But Fijian President Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara assumed control and appears to be running the country, a move supported by many elements in the Pacific archipelago, including the police.
Speight says he is acting on behalf of indigenous Fijians to stop discrimination by Chaudhry, elected a year ago. Fiji has a population of about 813,000, 51 percent of whom are indigenous Fijians. Ethnic Indians, descended from migrants, make up about 44 percent of the population but generally control most of the commerce. Tension has been building between the two groups for months. Threat to democracy draws scrutiny
Speight pledged Monday to end the coup if the council requested it. But he later said he would demand an explanation if the council opposed the coup. Drawn by the coup, about 2,000 people went to the parliament grounds Tuesday. Many said they support Speight, but others appeared attracted by the excitement. Rabuka, a former coup leader himself, said he did not expect Speight to free the captives until after the council meets Wednesday. Although it has little legislative power, the council retains moral authority over indigenous Fijians, who for centuries were ruled by hereditary chiefs. The threat to Fiji's democratic form of government is drawing international scrutiny. U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Stanley Roth warned Monday that U.S.-Fiji relations will suffer if Fiji throws out its democracy. A United Nations spokesman said Tuesday that the U.N.'s East Timor representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello, would meet in the Solomon Islands with Commonwealth Secretary-General Don McKinnon to talk about Fiji's situation. Vieira de Mello then will travel on to Fiji. In India, a relative from Chaudhry's ancestral village has threatened to burn himself to death if the Indian government doesn't pressure Fiji for Chaudhry's release.

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

hi all,

annonymous,

[*Our neighbours in Somalia have the rather interesting distinction of being the only country in Africa without a state. It is just a geographical chapati in which warlords loose off their guns and call one another names over a bunch of khat. As far as we know, the Somali share
everything that could be used to distinguish one from the next. The only difference is that
they think they know that they are different. And for that, they are willing to die and destroy
their country.*]

*as far as we know, the somali share everything that could be used to distinguish one from the next* -- EXACTLY. this is why i always say -- 'when the push comes to shove, we are somalis.' i'm just sorry that non-somalis are the only ones realizing that.

ANYWAY, going back to your post(s). you asked me the following;

[If Somali style Islamic State goverment would not help Somalis get rid of their "tribist"
mentality, do you think that any Somali style Secular State government would help Somalis
get rid of their "tribist" metality?]

actually, the PROBLEM of having 'a mentality' towards tribal is because...somalis can never accept equality from another somali. they are always expecting him to be 'discriminator' no matter how 'wadaad' he is. our ridiculeness, as somalis, is that we RAN from the problem. if every somali feels justly dealt with -- tribal dispute would dissapear.

*secular state* -- ha! who said 'secular'? what i'm fighting is SECULAR, to begin with. when and if every somali tribe has a seat in the head department, the majority of somalis' morality is what will come to the table, right? then what? i'm willing to live with the morality of my people -- no matter how much it may go against my personal beliefs. because, at the end of the day, it's THEIR happiness and peace...that means the world to me. i believe every individual, as a human being, has the mind and the heart to decide to believe whatever they wanna believe. however, the somali society should be based on somali morality...not a few's morality.

my idea above serves that purpose -- gives all somalis an equal right in the 'seat'.

the point is -- unlike ANY other people in the world, somalis are close in culture and religion. my god, i can't even imagine where we would be if we were different in religion and culture. wow wow! we would be shoved to the sea, no doubt. borderless from ethiopia to kenya to djabut to somaliland, somalis are similar in all they do. i think we should kiss our hands and glorify our god for all the blessings he blessed us with.


peace - ahmad!

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
Again, if Islam( as law and guide) can not help a Somali wadaad or non-wadaad Somali get rid of his or her tribalism mentality (not the difference of tribe, but the using tribe against one another) why do you think a Somali wadaad or non-wadaad Somali listen to your guidance or suggestion?

The fact is that the Somali wadaad will never accept the non-wadaad Somali and vice versa.

The wadaad will always use and go against his religious teaching when it comes to tribe while the non-wadaad is already going against his religious teaching.

If Islam can not help the Somalis, nothing else can help them. In other word, if the Somalis--the wadaad or the non-wadaad--do not use Islam, no secular mentality is going to help them.

There will always be in Somalia a wadaad and non wadaad as there will always be tribal differences.
If Islam can not help the Somalis, nothing else can help them. In other word, if the Somalis--the wadaad or the non-wadaad--do not use Islam, no secular mentality is going to help them. Anything that is non-Islamic is secular (including using tribal based government). Do you know what the Somali reer xamar say to this can of thing? JUG JUG MA HAADA JOOG and this is my point.

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

annonymous,

you seem to miss that somalis existed PRE-islam just fine. and they existed because of tribal government sorta. pre-islam, somalis never fought against each other...as tribes. but they always kinda held together...against what is now ethiopia and kenya.

the wadaad vs. non-wadaad mentality only began after 70s and that alone. before the 70s...all somalis belonged to suffism mixed with sunnism...and they ALL got along fine, as far as religious dispute.

however, since somalis came to be a government -- in the early 60s, the tribal mentality began...because somalis suddenly followed a different step -- having a ONE head rule the whole people...something they never did before. so, what can help them best, beyond islam and anything else, is to GO BACK to that.

the other point you are missing to see -- is that islam will EXIST when and if this trbal branch government goes on. because when everyone comes to the table...everyone comes with islamic thought. after all, we are 99% muslim society...even if different sects. and may the best man rule. which means...the majority votes of the population will result ruling. and i would be very much happy with that...because the majority of the people are happy with it. which results what? peace...and that is a fruitful thought for my people.


peace - ahmad!

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
pre-islam somalis never fought against each other!!!!!! WHAT!!! People in every age fight, Ahmad. Muslims fight, non-Muslims fight. Somalis(non-wadaads and wadaads) fought each other way way way before 70s. Ask sayidka and hertiisa and the people who died in their scrimmages----who are no longer with us like koofil. also ask the Somalis who fought before 60's in their tribal scrimmages. islam always existed and always will and muslims will fight against each other just as non-mulsims will fight against each other. what islam can not fix, no somali government can fix----that is my point. therefore, Tribalism system will not work if different tribes do not follow islam. HADDII KALE JUG JUG MA HAADO JOOG.

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
pre-islam somalis never fought against each other!!!!!! WHAT!!! People in every age fought and will continue to fight, Ahmad. It has been that way ever since the two sons of Adam fought. Muslims fight, non-Muslims fight. Somalis(non-wadaads and wadaads) fought each other way way way before 70s. Ask sayidka and hertiisa and the people who died in their scrimmages----who are no longer with us like koofil. also ask the Somalis who fought before 60's in their tribal scrimmages. islam always existed and always will and muslims will fight against each other just as non-mulsims will fight against each other. what islam can not fix, no somali government can fix----that is my point. therefore, Tribalism system will not work if different tribes do not follow islam. HADDII KALE JUG JUG MA HAADO JOOG.

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

annonymous,

[pre-islam somalis never fought against each other!!!!!! WHAT!!! People in every age fight, Ahmad.]

annonymous, that is a very true fact. please read the ethiopian history...where our people are mentioned. for starters, our people were not as much...and second, our people ALWAYS had to fend for themselves in their lands. foreign interference ALWAYS united them. because ethiopia never stopped sending troops to somalis, somalis were always united. especially, those north and north-west.

somalis always fought -- but i mean like 'war war' fight. there was not a time when two somali clans fought so much as to kill each other ten people. the first time EVER...when somalis against somalis war claimed more than 5 people was 1845 when the tribe isaaqq and warsengeli were fighting...and that stopped within 3 days. and the first war where somali against another somali went one more than 3 days...was when the majeerteen and leelkase fought and this was in this very last century. this, again, had nothing to do with tribal...but LAND and that alone. and believe it or not, when the majeerteen and leelkase were fighting, when the ethiopian force visited, they were UNITED...and were trying to figure out how their vanquish their enemy, etc.

as for the sayyidka and hertiisa. well, the somalis who went against them...did not do so because it was 'religious' but because the people of the sayyidka(darvish) brought more difficult on the locals. however, they were all in similar beliefs.

[what islam can not fix, no somali government can fix----that is my point.]

well, that is the point -- islam is fixing it, annonymous. it's from the qur`an we learn israelites got along only when they were given EACH tribe...their own well. besides that, when all somali muslims come to the seat as i have said a thousand times, so will islam.


peace - ahmad!

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
{somalis always fought -- but i mean like 'war war' fight. there was not a time when two somali clans fought so much as to kill each other ten people.}

that is because the somali tribes who were against eachh other were not using all the military technical that was needed to kill tens of thousands of each other; they were using tooreey instead and waran.


{this, again, had nothing to do with tribal...but LAND and that alone.}

well, if those fights between the somali tribes in those days had nothing to do with tribal(but LAND), then the modern fights between Somalis tribes have nothing to do with tribal(but LAND too)


{as for the sayyidka and hertiisa. well, the somalis who went against them...did not do so because it was 'religious' but because the people of the sayyidka(darvish) brought more difficult on the locals. however, they were all in similar beliefs.}

sayidka was a sufi in saalixiya dariiqa and not only was sayidka fighting for LAND, but he was fighting for RELIGION. Ever heard of GABAYADIISA where he talks about the infidels and the Somalis who stood in front of him or the Somalis (the non saalixiya) who did not help him in his JIHAD against the infidels? Sayidka considered the Somalis (the non-wadaads) who did not help him in his jihad against the infidels as supporters of the infidels.


{well, that is the point -- islam is fixing it, annonymous.}

if islam is fixing the somali problem (the problem of tribalism) then all somali tribes (the Somali wadaada and the non-wadaadada) need islamic system, not tribalism system.

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
I have to say that the Somali problem is not about tribalism or the differences between tribes in Somalia. And it is not even about not having any government(Islamic or Secular system) but the problem Somalis have is about the lust for greed that every Somali tribe and every wadaads and non-wadaads carry within them.


"..........What heights of lust for power and gain must consume their souls? Then I understood why Somalia collapsed. This is a nation of greed and ambition gone mad."
http://somalinet.com/forums_archives/19/3400.html

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ahmad

Unrecorded Date
asalama alaykum muslims,

annonymous,

you have a beautiful name...why 'annonymous'? i mean, if you are the person who sent me in my e-mail the long...but interesting article!

anyway, you are wrong about the somalis` "this time" conflict being 'land'. no, this time it's the SEAT and who rules who. the point was -- 'siyad barre is mareehan...and he only helps/supports mareehan'. when a non-tribist looks at that, he figures it is not only fact...but it is destructive. therefore, there must be a way that somalis, as a nation, should feel the heads of their own house. for this, i say...let every tribe rule...and let every clan...within a tribe rule, as well. when and if they complain about the system -- the response would only be; "waydii ina adeerkaa!!!" you see? 'waydii ina adeerkaa' takes cares the whole deal.

the point i'm trying to get to you is that -- islam...cannot fix somalis unless ALL somalis accept islam. i mean, really...accept the true islam in the qur`an. as long as they don't do that, they will always have 'differences'. islam is a perfect happiness and the qur`an is the best judge. however, somalis will NOT submit to the qur`an, as a nation. so, what would fix their problem? this way...which is non-anti-islam...but helps them cope with their inner problems.


i agree with the last quote you quoted. and believe it or not, islam cannot help such people -- except `till they help themselves. you can not straighten a bent tree, but you can water it...in hopes that it'll straighten itself. somalis has gone off the cliff. when they have what they want the most, the tribal system, they have the truth.


peace - ahmad!

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
{you have a beautiful name...why 'annonymous'?}

does it matter? does the use of name change the opinion a person has? as far as i know the name ahmad is anonymous to me. you do not know me; i do not know you.


{when they have what they want the most, the tribal system, they have the truth.}


the tribal system is not the truth that will set the Somalis free from their problems. Islam (not the tribe) is the one that sets and straightens people. Tribal system and Islamic system are not two interchangeable things, Ahmad.


Muslims (wadaadada and non-wadaadada in every tribe and race) can find peace in Islamic system if they follow and accept it ((not in racial system and in tribal system).

Islam says: XABLU'LAAHI---WALAA TAFARAQUU.

Somali tribes always fought for LAND (wells) and they also fought for livestock---just as they are doing right now. They used to rob (dhufsasho) and raid other tribe's residence and steal from each other's camels and ceelashooda (wells) There is no difference in the greed and hatred they had each other and the one they have for each other now. The only difference is that right now they have military technical that can destroy not only themselves, but their own LAND.

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anonymous

Unrecorded Date
{if you are the person who sent me in my e-mail the long...but interesting article!}

the reason i sent the article to you was that i could not post it onto here. i tried to post it on here, but it gave me server error.

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