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Jews and the image of The Islam

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Oct. 29, 2000): Jews and the image of The Islam
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Rahim

Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 03:04 pm
Every time I see a report about a situation in the Muslim world whatever it is on TV or in a newspaper, I would ask myself why the western media paint the Muslims as terrorists or source of problems...Gulf War, Palestine, Sudan, ..in the last 20 years the image of the Muslims in the world has been trashed by the media ...to the point where we are afraid to say or claim in front of the others our attachment to Islam , some of us became ashamed to be associated to the Arabs , to "Muslims extremists" to the point where they would stop going to Mosques...but we have to ask ourselves where all this is coming from...
So I did my research and continue to do ...
Even if there is not doubt that we as Muslims are responsible of the image the world has of the Islam..it is in no way comparable to the "UNDERGROUND WAR" ,the jews have planned and are about to achieve against the Muslim and Christian worlds, WAR that are not even award of ...WAR designed to destroy the essence and the morality of the Muslim World by destroying the credibility of the people , by enslaving their mind to "new modern ideas" where money and freedom from the "moral" are the "real reasons" to live

check the site www.abbc.com , it is a site that contains insightful resources about the Jews and the "UNDERGROUND WAR"

knowledge is power

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asad

Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 07:00 pm
the enemies of muslims were around from the beginning (during prophet's time and after his death). the jewish, the christians and hypocrites are doing what they are expected and that is to go against muslims. however, the early muslims succeeded against the enemy's attacks. all the early muslims had to do was to follow islam to the teeth, then, success was theirs. after muslims changed and went their ways against the right course, the attacks of the jews, christian and other against muslims worked. so that is where we are now. there is a verse in the Qur'an that says: Allah would not change the condition of a people unless they change themselves.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 03:04 am
Rahim
Muslims leave themselves vulnerable to media assaults and general mistrust in three areas. First, they have brought terrorism to a new height. In the west, regardless of thr righteousness of your cause, if you deliberately kill knnocent woman and children you will be looked upon as a barbarian. This is less true if it's just a random rocket attack, more true is someone aims an AK-47 at the head of some kid in an airport and blows him away. Furthermore, you have terrorists doing these things and screaming "Allahu Ahkbar" while they're doing it. This instantly ties the images of violent extremism and Islam together. Muslims will correctly point out that most Muslims are law abiding citizens, and that the Palestinians act the way they do due to injustice. But media images are framed over short periods of time. For every CNN Perspectives story you get 10,000 sound bites that tend to show an image tied to a theme. Movements like Hamas have done more to undermine the Palestinian cause and the image of Islam than anything else.
The second reason comes from the idea, strongly embrced by Muslims, that their faith is the only true faith. Other faiths embrace this philosophy, but few are as vociferous or militant about it.
The thrid reason is that Islam is more than a faith, it's a way of life. All aspects of life, including political life, are addressed in Islam. Because the West does not trust religion in State Affairs due to a history of abuse by religious leaders, it sees religious involvement (beyond the perfunctory) in the affairs of state as backward and dangerous. Muslims will point out that there was never a Muslim version of the 30 years war or the inquisition. From a Western point of view this doesn't matter. Religion and religious leaders, regardless of orientation, are viewed as suspect by most (not all) people in the west. Also, the fact is, that while the West might consider itself decadent in a reflective moment - it likes its decadence and doesn't want it threatened.

In short, what you have is a culture conflict. One culture includes dictates on how society should be organized and how people should live their daily lives. The other is more minimalist nd distrustful of government interfering in daily lives. Add to this a history of conflict between Islamic States and Western ones and you end up with a situation where in some circles (not all) Islam is regarded with suspicion.

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asad

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 04:31 am
"First, they have brought terrorism to a new height. In the west, regardless of thr righteousness of your cause, if you deliberately kill knnocent woman and children you will be looked upon as a barbarian."

but the double standard is that when the west (the christians and the jews) deliberately kill innocent women and children--they and the media looks this as defending freedom (and it is not barbarian), right?

"The second reason comes from the idea, strongly embrced by Muslims, that their faith is the only true faith."

mad mac, you do not think christians and jews strongly embrace that their faiths are the only true faith? !!!

"Also, the fact is, that while the West might consider itself decadent in a reflective moment - it likes its decadence and doesn't want it threatened."

but the west likes to threaten and assault muslims and those who want to practice their faith(their way of life), even if the west have to use high tech terrorism by bombing and killing innocent women and children, right?

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 05:34 am
Asad
There you go again with that annoying habit of taking individual sentances out of context. Now what have I told you about that????

Under the section where I addressed believing their way was the only way, you will note (but curiously leave out of your quotation) I said that while other religions often believe this too, they are not as vociferous or militant about it. Most Isaraelis aren't that religious. More than half politically support secular parties. The orthodox Jews are regarded as freaks in the Western world. Individuals who should be tolerated, but basically regarded as idiots, with no taste in fashion, poor taste in cuisine, and leading boring, obnoxious lives.
The "West" does not use high tech bombing or violence or threats of violence except under basically two conditions:

a. Protect resources (like oil for example) critical to its economic well-being.
b. When driven by its population to intervene for humanitarian reasons (Bosnia, Somalia, East Timor, etc)

Bombing strikes against Iraq, the Sudan, Serbia and Afghanistan are strikes which fit into group a or group b. The West will react with military force to thwart the spread of fundamentalism - i.e. the spread of Iranian influence or the establishment of states which could be hostile to the west, harbor and encourage terrorism, and thus lead to case a. The biggest difference is in intent when employing force. The US armed forces takes extraordinary care to avoid collateral damage. It happens, but it is not intended to happen. Hamas, and like minded groups, consider Kufars to be not worthy of respect and women and children are frequently deliberately targetted. Planting a bomb in the garbage bin of a bus station, for example, is deliberately targetting civilians. There is no attempt to target a military target or weapons producing factory. It's a deliberate attempt to use the death of innocents to publicize the cause. Also (and here you escape me, because you're smart enough to know better) these tactics are frequently used when it looks like a peace deal might be struck, something the majority population of Palestine for example, is supportive of. In other words, Hamas and other extremists, deliberately use violence to cause apprehension among the Israelis and throw a peace agreement off track. Then, when the Israelis retaliate, the popular support for a peace agreement wilts. Extremists on the Israeli side do the same thing, they're just far more clever about how they do it (like Sharons visit to the temple mount). In both cases it's wrong.

Asad, why do you find it difficult to understand why Muslim extremists are losing the media war? They do it to themselves. They build the images as blood thirsty swine, they deliberately cultivate those images. The media is quick to pick up the sound bite. And it loves to point at WEstern insitutions and trash them. But the fundamentalist are a bad image waiting to happen. I don't know why you can't see that. Look at the rock throwing Palestinians right now. What do they look like? A bunch of hooligans out on the street destroying property and acting like animals. Whether their cause is understandable or not, whether they're victims or not, is irrelevant. The subject above is about the media images. And they have created images which make people think Islam is a backward, intolerant, violent religion. Most people know very little about the outside world, and the images they get from the 60 second sound bite constitute the begining and end of their knowledge of Islam. Some AK wielding, bearded freak screaming "Jihad" and burning an American flag isn't going to enhnce the public image of Islam. Again, right or wrong, good guy or bad guy, has nothing to do with it.

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asad

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 06:33 am
"Under the section where I addressed believing their way was the only way, you will note (but curiously leave out of your quotation) I said that while other religions often believe this too, they are not as vociferous or militant about it. Most Isaraelis aren't that religious."

that is not the truth. most israelis and those who support them (the west) use religion to justify the injustice and them terrorism they lash at innocent people. they kill people and kick people's homes. they say the land is theirs and they use the bible (the old testaments) to prove it.

"The "West" does not use high tech bombing or violence or threats of violence except under basically two conditions: a. Protect resources (like oil for example) critical to its economic well-being. b. When driven by its population to intervene for humanitarian reasons (Bosnia, Somalia, East Timor, etc)"

that is a lie. the US and the west have been doing terrorist activities for long time (whether done by them or their puppets). like i said before, the US has it's hand innocent blood dripping all over. terrorism done in the name of US interests and in the name of freedom does not make it right. it is still terrorism.

"Asad, why do you find it difficult to understand why Muslim extremists are losing the media war?"

mad mac, read what i said on monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:00 am on this page. i understand that the media and the US is winning and lying at times. the media hides the terrorism US does.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 07:39 am
Asad
You are wrong, wrong and wrong on all counts. You are not doing your homework.

First of all, if you believe that the Media supports any US policy think again. Sometimes they are stuck being unable to complain because they don't have negtive facts to work with. But the media is mostly a product of the left in the US which despises the military and military operations. This is aggravated by the Clinton Administration, which also despises the military but loves military operations.

Using religion to justify something doesn't mean you're religious. Muslim leaders use religion all the time to justify all kinds of crap. The official US policy (stated just yesterday in the public media) is that sites which are considered by Jews and Muslims to be holy to both should be equal access locations. That is, both Muslims and Jews should both have access to go to these sites and pray at them.

The US does not support "terrorist activities" unless, by that statement, you mean political / military movements of any type. The US does not support groups which deliberately seek out to murder women and children. I am keenly aware of US policy (as an agent of that policy). To say otherwise is a lie. We had multiple opportunites to kill Aideed when I was in Somalia and we were not authorized to do so. The Abdi House raid only went down becuse it was deemed as a legitimate Command and control Target for the SNA. Frankly, I disagreed with the rational on Aideed, but was overuled.

Again, you have a slanted an inaccurate view of US foreign policy and see it as anti-Islamic. This is a lie. US policy goes back to points A and B which I already specified to you. You can argue whether or not you think it's justifiable, but don't tell me what US policy is and is not, I know what the policy is. If a country adopts a hostile attitude toward the US the US will respond. What would you expect????

BTW none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Turkish policy, institued by Muslims, on wearing the Hijab in a government building.

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asad

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 08:57 am
"First of all, if you believe that the Media supports any US policy think again. Sometimes they are stuck being unable to complain because they don't have negtive facts to work with. But the media is mostly a product of the left in the US which despises the military and military operations. This is aggravated by the Clinton Administration, which also despises the military but loves military operations."

when it comes to foreing policy, both the left and the right, will do what the jews in israel want. media makes sure that any US admistration does it's job. you can not deny this. you do not need to do homework to know this.


"Using religion to justify something doesn't mean you're religious."

i don't care if they are religous or not, the jewish (with the help of US) use religion to oppress, and kill innocent people in that part of the world.


"The US does not support "terrorist activities" unless, by that statement, you mean political / military movements of any type."

as i said, political/military terroist activities by the US and the israelis still bring terror to innocent people every day.


"The US does not support groups which deliberately seek out to murder women and children."

the US supports and sponsors state sponsored terrorists in israel and other places in the world.


"I am keenly aware of US policy (as an agent of that policy). To say otherwise is a lie."

you can lie if you want to, but i'm going to let you know about it.


"Again, you have a slanted an inaccurate view of US foreign policy and see it as anti-Islamic. This is a lie. US policy goes back to points A and B which I already specified to you. You can argue whether or not you think it's justifiable, but don't tell me what US policy is and is not, I know what the policy is."

well, if innocent people are robbed from their homes and got killed by the israelis--as a result and the help of the US government, that is not a lie. if you deny this, you are a lair.

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asad

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 09:00 am
"BTW none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Turkish policy, institued by Muslims, on wearing the Hijab in a government building."

mad mac, i believe you are confusing yourself. on this page, we are not talking about turkish policy on hijab. the title of this page is "Jews and the image of The Islam".

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 10:29 am
OK, you're right. I got side tracked on the Hijab thing.

Now, let's take YOUR rational to its logical conclusion. The Jews (Israel) with a itty bitty population base, are able to manipulate the entire US government and US governmental policy. The Muslims, with one sixth of the worlds population, are not. I can only conclude from this that either:

a. The Jews are incredibly crafty and smart and the Muslims are incredibly stupid and naive.

or

b. God is on the side of the Jews and is manipulating the situation to support his chosen people.

MAD MAC would conclude that Islamic extremists have carefully cultivated an image of brutality which plays into the hands of the Israeli state and the bulk of the Muslim population either can not or will not control these fanatics who do so much to hurt the Palestinian cause. Had the Palestinians adopted Mohatma Ghandis strategy of non-violent resistance public opinion would have long since turned against the Israelis. But instead the Arab states failed to recognize their own weakness - in my terminology they conducted poor mission analysis - and failed to comprehend how to execute a proper media campaign. The Palestinians have a good case, repeatedly supported by numerous UN resolutions, but they are clueless in how to present it. Look at the most recent incident. The Palestinian reaction, with crowds in the streets throwing stones, again plays into the hands of the hard liner Israelis and undermines the efforts of hte Israeli faction that wants peace. Remember, the Israeli society, like all democratic societies, is hardly homogeneous. Based on your theory, the Israeli right (maybe 1.5 - 2 million people with a generous estimate including women and children) is controlling all US foreign policy. Man they must be some clever motherfuckers.

Again, you are using a very broad definition of terrorist. It's not as if the Israelis have little hit squads running around that decide to go and kill little girl X and little boy Y. The Mosad has killed Islamic political and military leaders, but from their perspective that's part of the war for survival. Israel is a small nation surrounded by enemies. BUT, and this is a big but, the Western world, due to sins of the past, will not allow this small nation to be destroyed. That, coupled with the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons and would use them if they thought they were going to be overrun, means Israel isn't going anywhere. So, at the end of the day, either the two sides have to come to some sort of accomodation based on mutual respect, or the conflict will simply go on and on. Your attitude, of seeing conspiracy after conspiracy and launching verbal attack upon verbal attack, offers no solutions, only verbal attacks.

The problem could be solved if two things happened. Holy Sites in Jerusalem were mutually administered by both Palestinians and Israelis, both sides acknowledged the others right to worship at those sites and have free access to them, and the Israelis shared Jerusalum as the capital with the Palestinians. All it requires is a little mutual respect and tolerance, which the "true believers" on both sides have lacked.

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asad

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:48 pm
"Now, let's take YOUR rational to its logical conclusion. The Jews (Israel) with a itty bitty population base, are able to manipulate the entire US government and US governmental policy. The Muslims, with one sixth of the worlds population, are not."

well, manipulation or not, the fact is that the billions of american tax dollars and military assistance is given to israel every year to sponsor state terrorism. it has nothing to do stupidity and naivity on part of the tax paying american people; it is something that the american government has been doing.

"Again, you are using a very broad definition of terrorist. It's not as if the Israelis have little hit squads running around that decide to go and kill little girl X and little boy"

the israelis (with the help of US) has killed many many many kids and made many others orphans. again, the US and israel have their hands innocent blood drippling.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 02, 2000 - 11:18 pm
Asad
Define innocent. Let's take that 12 year old that got capped yesterday. What the hell was he doing out there? He's 12. There's civil unrest going on. Any responsible parent would have the kid locked in the basement, not out throwing stones in a riot. That's how you get shot.

You never did answer the question. Why are the Jews so smart and the Muslims so stupid???

It is true that Israel receives more monetary (not military) aid than any other country in the Middle East. It is also true that the number two country on the list is?????????????? Egypt!!! Who has received the vaunted US M1 tank - and a lot of them.

OK, let's assume that the Israelis and Americans have innocent blood on their hands. Well, so do the Syrians. So do the Saudis. So do the Iarqis. The Somalis have so much innocent blood on their hands you could repopulate Palestine with the number of innocents the Somalis have killed.

The fact is, killing innocents is not a matter of state policy for the US or Israel. But killing innocents is a matter of policy for Hamas.

Lastly, did you agree with my solution to the impass? You never addressed it. Look at the situation and what is politically viable on both sides. Than tell me how you would solve this problem in a practical manner. I'll bet you come up with a solution that won't fly.

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kamal Sheikh-omar

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 02:21 am
if there is a war, surely is the war that Allah mentioned in the Quran. What I do not understand is the way Muslims reacting! I know If we all march to Jerusalam.... For sure next day would not be any problems at all. Get ready and be prepare you and those around you.... if time comes we have to.. there will not be another choice but either to be shaheed or live in Issa of Allah!

kamal!

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asad

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 05:13 am
"OK, let's assume that the Israelis and Americans have innocent blood on their hands. Well, so do the Syrians. So do the Saudis. So do the Iarqis."

assume? it is a fact, mad mac that israelis and americans have innocent blood on their hands. let me repeat what i said before which you said was wrong. the US and the west have been doing terrorist activities for long time (whether done by them or their puppets). the US has it's hand innocent blood dripping all over.

"Define innocent."

people who lost their homes and loves ones demand their rights to be free. the israelis with the help of US shoot these innocent people when they protest for their rights. to kick people out of their homes and then deny for them their rights and kill them is a terrorism. terrorism done in the name of US interests and in the name of freedom does not make it right. it is still terrorism. the US supports state terrorism in israel.

"You never did answer the question. Why are the Jews so smart and the Muslims so stupid???"

robbing people and killing them when they demand their rights is not smartness; it is terrorism. the native americans were said to be stupid for loosing their land to the europeans who came to america. are the europeans in their act of terrorism against innocent native americans smart and native americans stupid?

"The fact is, killing innocents is not a matter of state policy for the US or Israel."

it is the state policy for the israelis with the help of US to kill innocent people. as long as the people who lost their homes and loves ones do not demand their rights, there would not be killing by te israelis with the help of US, but when the innocent people demand their rights and protest, that is when it is state policy to launch terrorism.

"Lastly, did you agree with my solution to the impass? You never addressed it. Look at the situation and what is politically viable on both sides. Than tell me how you would solve this problem in a practical manner. I'll bet you come up with a solution that won't fly."

hey, you an i are not here to solve and stop the killings in that area. you said the problem could be solved if jerusalem were mutually administered by both Palestinians and israelis. tell that to the israelis and see if it flies. ;-)

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asad

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 05:40 am
"You never did answer the question. Why are the Jews so smart and the Muslims so stupid???"

was hitler smarter than the jews when he was terrorizing them? ;-)

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Deeqo

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 05:41 am
Asad we proud of you. Keep defending the Islam from hypoctrices and narrow-minded like MAD-MAC. You have the knowledge and experience to do so.

Might Allah help you

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asad

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 06:50 am
"Asad we proud of you."

i respect you too, my sister.

"Keep defending the Islam from hypocrites and narrow-minded like MAD-MAC."

when it is pointed out the truth, islam (the truth) will always outshine the false sayings by hypocrites and the narrow-minded people.

but you know what? as i said it before in another place, there will always be conflict between HAQ and BAADIL---truth vs false. the enemies of muslims were around from the beginning (during prophet's time and after his death). the jewish, the christians and hypocrites are doing what they are expected and that is to go against muslims. they will never give up promoting their propoganda. it's in their blood to distort and mislead people. they can't help but to be like that. although most muslims are sleeping now, as long as we have the Book (the Qur'an) which they (the jewish, the christians and hypocrites) can not corrupt, they will not succeed. they can kill, terrorize and manipulate the muslims, but they can not hide the truth. they have a way of showing their true colors (their hatred of islam). Allah said in the Qur'an something like "no matter how they (the jewish, the christians and the hypocrites) hate the truth and want to destroy it, they will never be able to distinguish the light of islam". ;-)

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asad

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 01:09 pm
"if there is a war, surely is the war that Allah mentioned in the Quran."

the war in the Qur'an is not for land, kamal.

"What I do not understand is the way Muslims reacting!"

muslims are no different than other people. they react like the rest when something bad is happening to them.


"I know If we all march to Jerusalam.... For sure next day would not be any problems at all."

and then do what? as i said, the war in the Qur'an is not for land or country.

"Get ready and be prepare you and those around you.... if time comes we have to.. there will not be another choice but either to be shaheed"

fighting for land is not going to make you shaheed.

"or live in Issa of Allah!"

what does that mean?

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formerguest.

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 03:01 pm
I wonder if mad is the ambassador of the jewish terrorist state and their murderous campaing against muslims?. I know mad likes to make the subject an arab one like we gonna buy that. Mad, By defending those jews, you are losing a place among somalis, you have to know that. YOU ARE GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION WITH THOSE JEWISH MURDERERS.

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 10:03 pm
Formerguest
I defend the truth - contrary to what Asad would have you believe. I am also an advocate of real-politik, in the Henry Kissinger mold. I believe in executing that which can be accomplished, not in pie in the sky nonsense. Frankly, I consider Hasidic Jews to be laughable and pathetic. Small minded men who lack tolerance for others. But Muslim fundamentalists aren't any better. My sympathies lie with the Barak and Arafat factions. That they have not been able to come to a resolution of the crises has to do with their own internal political situations, which don't give either of them enough leeway.

I was annoyed with my own government for openly criticizing Arafat when the peace talks failed. If that bitch Hillary wasn't running for senate in New York and we didn't have a moron for sec state then we might have made more progress.

I do not have sympathies with rioters, however. Peaceful protest is one thing, once you start rioting and destroying property you cross the line. The Palestian Authority needs to get its own house in order on this one. Whether the feelings of the Palestinians are justified or not, their methods are not justifiable and furthermore, will only cause needless Musilm bloodshed. It won't further their cause.

In my mind the big issue is getting the dip shits in both camps to understand that everyone has a right to worship at the holy sites. Furthermore, the Israelis should relent on East Jerusalum. In order to avoid dividing the city, they should have a joint Arab-Israeli police force, with joint patrolling throughout the city. But The Palestinians have the right to share the capital city which has deep historical meaning for them as well as the Jews.

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fatuma

Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 01:27 am
This is not not a Jewish/Palestinian war. It's an attack on Muslims which makes it an attack on ISLAM.This is an issue for all muslims to resolve by all means necessary. I am really angered and saddened to see young children and old people being tramppled on by hostile Jews. I feel so helpless and wonder what can I as a muslim do to eleviate their suffering. What will it take to raise the muslim ummah against those people who are against their interests? This is a war to eradicate muslim presence in Palestine. The land is theirs and not the other way around. What can a muslim sister do to help the muslims in Palestine? Mad Mac and his likes are just wasting our valuable time with their gibberish zionistic mambo jambo. The problem is not theirs but it's ours and so we should try to do something about it other then arquing with infidels who are a part of the problem! InshaaAllah Islam will conquer all the obsticles that are thrown in front of it everday.

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MAD MAC

Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 01:44 am
Fatuma
You sound like another dumb ass popping off. Classic divisive language, calling names at the other camp instead of trying to understand what motivates them and how the situation can be resolved. It is attitudes like yours which cause the conflict to grind on and on - undermining rational leadership on both sides. This is a Palestinian / Israeli issue, not an Infidel - Muslim issue. You need to offer practical solutions. The Palestinian side, even with the help of its Arab neighbors, can not win a military conflict. They need to find another way. If a war erupts between the Palestinian / Arab faction and Israel the west bank will be gone and the Arabs will be thrown out for good. The Israelis have the combat power to accomplish this. The Israelis have deep seated security concerns which rhetoric like yours only aggravates.

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fatuma

Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 03:33 am
YAWN. once again Mad Mac brays like the old donkey he is. Hmm still offering the old boring wishy washy crap, I see!! Can't you for once get of your high horse and get back to reality. We know that this is an Islamic problem which will be solved as such.I got the impression from your posting that you are scarred of what we can do as a collective people. You sound like an old ready repeating the same song about the Jews being loaded with weapons blah blah. You must be thinking that you're discouraging us with your I-know-what-am-talking-about-because-am-a-whittie Yiddish. Well it's not working because we can see the reality of the problems caused by Jews in Palestine. No negotiations with the Jews but force! Because that's the only thing that makes sense to them. Every time Palestinians disagree with the Jews, then they resort to violence. So maddie, there will be an Islamic order in the world. Someday, somehow the Jews will pay for the atrocities that they have committed. Bill won't be there to help, neither will you, I guarantee you!! I hope I'll be alive to see that day come. Maddie, that day will be quite sooner then you expect.

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MAD MAC

Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 04:00 am
Tell you what Fatuma, pack up your AK and head for Palestine. Go show 'em. I'll see your brains splattered all over the street on CNN of course. But you'll go to paradise fighting the infidel, how could forget.

I love that phrase "there will be Islamic order in the world." I guess I can take that to mean that you want to spread Islamic order through violence. Good luck - you're definately going to need it.

The funniest part of this whole thing is your country (Somalia) is totally fucked up and your worried about what's going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis. More people will die this week in Somalia of malnutrition and disease (not to mention violence) in Somalia than in violence between the Palestinians and Jews.

Also, I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm white, I know what I'm talking about because I study the problems and draw rational conclusions using my head, not my heart.

Insha Allah one day the practitioners of Islam will learn the forbearance the Qur'an teaches and get off their high horse.

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asad

Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 05:44 am
as i said many times, the war in the Qur'an is not for land (palestine, saudi arabia, somalia, etc..). the early muslims succeeded against the enemy's attacks and they didn't fight for land. they fought for religion (islam). today's muslims are sleeping and not practicing their religion and they want to go jihad!! that is a mistake, in my opinion. all the early muslims had to do was to follow islam to the teeth, then, success was theirs. accidentally, a jewish army commander (a terrorist) once said that while his army was occupying and killing innocent people with the help of the US. "when the muslims start practicing and filling up the mosques as they do it in friday prayers, then that is when we will fear them." i would not shed one tear if the kufars invade jidah, riyadh, jurisalam. there are more homosexuals and child molesters in these cities than many other cities in the states. mosques in many so-called muslim countries are not full and not even 50% of the muslims are performing their prayers. how can you go to jihad when you can not even wake up for fajar salaat, let alone attend fajar salaat at the mosque? again, there is a verse in the Qur'an that says: Allah would not change the condition of a people unless they change themselves.

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Anonymous

Thursday, October 05, 2000 - 09:35 pm
Well. Well, Peace on whom follow Right path..
I strongly encourge me and those of u claim to be muslim in the heart pray five times a day. First
of all start following ur own religion which is right one and prophet Mohamed,,then things will change for good. This is first step to differenciate those who are kufars and munafiqin from muslims..and then Jihad will come last which munafiniqin dont like to fight against kufars.
I was very discourged by Mad Mad comments by not surprise to see someone who claim muslim still does not get what is going in muslim world. I dont understand if this is ignorant of him or ignoring the facts..Well let me give u some advice if ur muslim.. wake up and smell the coffee
It is about time muslims to take control in holy
land and would do every possible way which through Jihaad.

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asad

Thursday, October 05, 2000 - 10:42 pm
"I was very discourged by Mad Mad comments by not surprise to see someone who claim muslim still does not get what is going in muslim world. I dont understand if this is ignorant of him or ignoring the facts.."

what is going on in the so-called muslim world, anonymous? can you educate me from my ignorance or what you think i'm ignoring. can you tell me the difference between muslims being killed by the kufars (palestinian vs. israelis) and muslims being killed by other muslims (somali on somali killing)? palestian people are fighting for their land; they are not fighting for holy land (the masjidil alqsa or for religion) and somalis who are against each other are fighting for lands too, right? if the fighting in the middle east is jihad, why isn't the fighting in somali jihad too?

"Well let me give u some advice if ur muslim.. wake up and smell the coffee It is about time muslims to take control in holy land and would do every possible way which through Jihaad."

well, muslims, as a whole, have to practice their religion first. help of Allah is with those who do righteous deeds by practicing the religion (it is in the Qur'an.)

as long as the muslims are fighting for land, they will not win and it is not jihad. fighting for Allah's religion while practicing is jihad (fii-sabiiliAllah). don't cheapen the war (the jihad fii-sabiiliAllah) in the Qur'an. if you do this, you are doing dis-service by calling wars for land----jihad----while the muslims are not practicing the religoin.! jihad is never for material gains with government that wants to rule secularism.

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asad

Thursday, October 05, 2000 - 10:58 pm
"Well let me give u some advice if ur muslim.. wake up and smell the coffee"

anonymous, let me give you this reminder from the Qur'an: Allah said, if you do jihaad for His diin, then He will help you---in other word, help His diin by practicing, then His help will be with you. if you do not change your condition, He will not do it for you. "waladiina jaahiduuna fiinaa lanah diyanahum subulanaa wa ina Laaha la macalil muxsiniin"

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Muslimah

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 09:14 am
Hey Asad
you forget that allah says (Swt) we as Muslims have to die our Homes....that is if enemy tried to take our Land and we let them have it....then We r not a muslims.am I right? you keep saying that the Holy war is not For Land.....don,t Forget Muslims are One in the Eyes of allh.and any Muslim Land is yours.......therefore sitting here and watching our Muslims br/sis killed by(Yahuud) what does that Makes us?...Careles Cawards..I agree whole the Way whit (Jihad)

peace.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:09 am
"you forget that allah says (Swt) we as Muslims have to die our Homes"

are you saying the somalis and palestinians who die fighting for homes is the jihad in the Qur'an? i mean if the fighting in the middle east is jihad, why isn't the fighting in somali jihad too? these fighing are both for lands (homes), right, muslima? since the fighting in palestine is for land and since the palestinain leaders say they want to have a secular government (not religious government) is that what Allah wants and is that jihad?

"don,t Forget Muslims are One in the Eyes of allah"

yes, i agree.

"and any Muslim Land is yours"

the whole earth belongs to Allah, right?
is not america Allah's land?

"therefore sitting here and watching our Muslims br/sis killed by(Yahuud) what does that Makes us?...Careles Cawards..I agree whole the Way whit (Jihad)"

if i fight for home and take revenge for myself and my intention is not to rule my home islam, that that is not jihad; that is self-defense. on the contrary, if i'm fighting for religion, it is a not a personal thing and then it is a jihad for Allah. real muslims do not fight for land; they fight for religion, but first muslims have to establish the religion in their lives. the prophet did not declare jihad when the arab pagans were prosecuting his followers and him. the prophet taught his followers how they needed to first put into their lives the practice in religion. for thirteen years, the muslims did not declare jihad and when they did, they did not out there to claim lands. they went out there to fight for the religion of Allah while practicing it 100% (even when they went to war (jihad), they had to perform the salaat).

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Muslimah

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:30 am
Asad
Right.. I agree whit you that We have to practice Islam, in order to Fllow...But Cam,on brother don,t say that the fight for Somalia and the One in Palatine are the Same...Somalia is Muslim killing one another....but In Phlastine,they are Fighing whit (Yahuud) who took Their Land.not only their Land But the Most Holiest Islamic History.....do u think Somaliya is the Same (Bytal Muqdis) don,t thing so....this is Islamic History Islamic Pride Cities...and I do Believe all Muslims have a right To Protect!
Peace

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:17 am
dear muslimah, let me give you an example about what is like fighting for something other than religion is (for land---for revenge).

but first, as you know, in islam, whenever we do something, we should do it for the sole intention to please Allah. if we do not do it, Allah will not accept it. what is required is what is called ikhlaas niyah (sincere intention for Allah).

there is a great story in the religious books (albukaari and muslim books):

one time, the followers of the prophet were in jihad fighting against the enemy of islam (the jews). ali bil abii dhaalib and this jew were battling one on one when all of the sudden ali got the upper hand over the jew. when ali was about to cut the jew's head, he (the jew guy) spat on the face of ali. then ali drew back and held himself. he let the man go free. later, ali was asked why he did not finish the jew. ali said he was first fighting for the religion and for Allah, but when the guy spat at his face, he got angry and realized that if he were kill the guy in the moment of passion and revenge, he would have fought for himself and not the religion. he said he did not want his ikhlaasal niyah (his sincerity for Allah and for the religion) wasted.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:33 am
"but In Phlastine,they are Fighing whit (Yahuud) who took Their Land.not only their Land But the Most Holiest Islamic History don,t thing so....this is Islamic History Islamic Pride Cities...and I do Believe all Muslims have a right To Protect!"


dear sister, i gave you an example where the prophet first trained his followers to follow the religion 100% before they fight and declare jihad. i said the prophet did not declare jihad when the arab pagans were prosecuting his followers and him. the prophet taught his followers how they needed to first put into their lives the practice in religion. for thirteen years, the muslims did not declare jihad and when they did, they did not out there to claim lands (even the holy mosque in mecca). and when they went out there to fight for the religion of Allah while practicing it 100% (even when they went to war (jihad), they had to perform the salaat). besides, when the prophet and his followers went to fight, their intention was to rule ISLAM in that land as they already established an islamic law in other places. now, you are saying we have to protect other lands and fight jihad in other places when you and i do not even have an islamic law in our lives in where we live.!!! In addition, the palestinain leaders are saying that they want to have a secular government (not religious government). so what are we protecting for if this is not for religion and for Allah?

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Muslimah

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:37 am
Asad
ok Br,
Tel me this, are u saying if I tried to help..Phalestinians to day it will be waste? cuz as you can see our br/sisters need help....say that I help Phalestinian Charity do you think it is worthles? since they are not fighting for Islam? my dear althought, I don,t know a lot about Islam I though we(Muslims) we must help each other....I did not know that you help Muslims.......when they only Fighting for Islam!

So, as u seem so knowlage able, can you Explain to me when Islamic help require please.
peace

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:57 am
"Tel me this, are u saying if I tried to help..Phalestinians to day it will be waste?"

if you help a somali muslim person and if you help a palestinian muslim person is the same---that is what i'm saying. our brothers and sisters in islam need help and we should help them, but if you fight for a land that is not going to be ruled in islam, you are not doing this for islam. therefore, you are not going to get the same reward as going jihad for Allah's diin.

"say that I help Phalestinian Charity do you think it is worthles? since they are not fighting for Islam "

no, you can help the palestinian muslims in anyway you can. it will be good and you will get its rewards from Allah.

"my dear althought, I don,t know a lot about Islam I though we(Muslims) we must help each other"

i do not know islam that much either. but i know what is jihad for sabiiliAllah is and what is not. i know that jihad fii sabiiliAllah (wars) is only for religion in order to rule an islamic law, not secular laws.

"I did not know that you help Muslims.......when they only Fighting for Islam!"

what i'm saying is that we must first come together and practice islam. i'm saying do not cheapen what is jihad. we can win the fighting for islam when we practice islam. if we just declar wars when we are weak in faith, Allah will not help us.

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Muslimah

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 12:05 pm
Asad
Thanks for your time my dear br..
now i can understand the difference between Jihaad, and helping for Muslims.

U said u are not knowlage able....mansha,allah your debates about Islam...make feel sometimes..I wish if I know where u are.....specially those whit a Mad-Mac.....they very intresting...so keep up the good work
and may Allah reward u..I learn a lot tonight.
peace

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 12:31 pm
my sister in islam, as i understand, jihad comes in different ways, but when most people talk about or hear the word jihad, they mean wars. however, the best jihad (not the war) is the jihadul nafs, the jihad against ones bad desires---the jihad against the shaydaan. there is a hadeeth that talks about three muslims in the day of judgment. one was religious teacher, the other was a brave man who fought in wars and other was a rich man. these three men did their things for themselves and for show off, not for Allah religion. therefore, they did not get rewards from Allah. in fact, they got punishments. there is another hadiith that talks about what you can do to help your brothers and sisters in islam if and when they are suffuring injustices. there are three things you can do if you can. you help them by taking things into your hand if you can (supporting them in fighting and supporting them by giving money, food..etc..) if you cannot that, you can talk about the injustice they are suffering and give them moral support. if you cannot do this, you hate in your heart the injustice they are going through.,

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:00 pm
Asad to compare the situation in Somalia to that of Palestine is absurd. People in Somalia are fighiting among themselves for selfish purposes. Religion is not involved because both parties claim to be muslims. The outcome of the war will not have an affect on Islam in somalia.
Palestine is a very different situation. First of all, Jerusalem is not just a land. This is where Haram Al-Sharif is located, the third holliest site in the world and the place where our beloved prophet(SAW) ascended to heaven. To let the Jews have this site would be a great sin. To NOT fight for Jerusalem would be a great sin. I don't know what your definition of Jihad is but fighting for Haram Al-Sharif is definitely jihad.

"Fight in the Cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and opppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the Sacard mosque unless they (first) fight you there; But if they fight you slay them, Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." (Al-Baqarah, 190-1901)

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:14 pm
Pardon me guys, I want to add that I would like to give my opinion on the subject if I were able to, but I am not. I would also like to avoid giving wrong opinion of jihad to some readers who might not be well-versed in the Quran and Sunnah. This is a matter that requires a scholar with some degree of knowledge who can give an edict about the subject and can be accountable for what he says.


I am really impressed by ALYISA and how she quoted the verse which is clear expression of what muslims can do following that verse. Also Jihad comes in many forms and ways but the main and the tip of it is to raise the word of ALLAH over all other beliefs and forms of worship. It is not fighting for LAND, TRIBE, PRESTIGE or anything that is other than the word of ALLAH. THAT is the JIHAD obligated in the QURAN:

"March forth whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive [ hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you if you but knew. (V.9:41).


"Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know. (V.2:216)"

Jihad is good bussiness and transaction that can be done with ALLAH by muslims and ALLAH TOLD THEM SO:

"O you who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment? (V.61: 10)"

"That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad pbuh) and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah (swt) with your wealth and your lives... (V.61:11 )"

"That will be better for you if you but know (V.61:11 ) "



JIHAD is a required act of worship on muslims whenever they live. They are responsible to spread islam around the world and take islam to people around every corner of the world.


WHAT ABOUT THE FIGHTINGS between muslims and nonmuslims that erupt everytime?:

In the case of the recent killings for example, there is clear justification for muslims to fight with the jews and help their brethren in anyway possible. The Quran allows muslims to fight those who fight with them like the jews:

"Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers) who are fighting them (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." (V.22:39,40). "

Who is in doubt that the jews are aggressors here?
The support of muslims is a must that is required from every believer. Because anybody who doesn't care about the affairs of muslims is not one of them as said by the prophet pbuh. Our helplessness lies in those leaders who subjugate the muslims into a life of slavery. May Allah get rid of them and give us a better replacement of them. They are at fault as much as those jews are because they are the ones responsible for these to happen.


If you would like to see and read further into the subject of jihad and it's obligation read this link which I quoted most of the verses from:

http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:19 pm
And don't misunderstand me guys, I am for jihad wherever whenever it happens or happening. We have to learn ISLAM so we become clear of everything. Islam is not just a name it is a way of life a complete explanation of what we are supposed to do and how to do them.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:25 pm
"Asad to compare the situation in Somalia to that of Palestine is absurd. People in Somalia are fighiting among themselves for selfish purposes "

actually, if we compare them, the situation that was in somalia is worst. somali on somali (muslims killing each other)

"Religion is not involved because both parties claim to be muslims."

yes, and that is very sad.

"Palestine is a very different situation. First of all, Jerusalem is not just a land."

jerusalem is only one city.

"This is where Haram Al-Sharif is located, the third holliest site in the world and the place where our beloved prophet(SAW) ascended to heaven."

yes, but jerusalam is not what is holy. the masjidul alqsa is what is holy.

"To let the Jews have this site would be a great sin"

jews do not have the holy mosque and they are not preventing any muslim from entering the mosque.

"To NOT fight for Jerusalem would be a great sin."

to fight for city is not what Allah wants. to fight for islam is what Allah wants.

"I don't know what your definition of Jihad is but fighting for Haram Al-Sharif is definitely jihad."

yes, but the muslim are the only ones entering there. no jewish is denying any muslim to enter there and perform the prayers. there is no law in the Qura'n that says no jewish or christian can live in jerisalem. in fact, during omar, jews and christians lived site by site and performed their prayers in their own places.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:36 pm
"I am really impressed by ALYISA and how she quoted the verse which is clear expression of what muslims can do following that verse. Also Jihad comes in many forms and ways but the main and the tip of it is to raise the word of ALLAH over all other beliefs and forms of worship. It is not fighting for LAND, TRIBE, PRESTIGE or anything that is other than the word of ALLAH. THAT is the JIHAD obligated in the QURAN:"

yes, you can fight and defend yourself and help muslims, but fighting for Allah is not for LAND, TRIBE, PERSTIGE or anything that is other than the word of ALLAH. i wil fight if a non-muslim and i go at each other, but am i doing jihad for sabiiliAllah?

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:58 pm
asad:

"in fact, during omar, jews and christians lived site by site and performed their prayers in their own places. "

But asad, you have to remember muslims had sovereignity over the city of jerusalem. The keys were handed to OMAR by the christian monk who after-wards said "There are no better people whom I would trust the keys with than those people(referring to muslims) after he saw OMAR lead a congregational prayer. Also now jews have the sovereignity on the cite in practice. They have conditions as to how many people can pray in the mosque at any given time, they control the traffic to and from the mosque and the whole city.

you also said : "yes, but jerusalam is not what is holy. the masjidul alqsa is what is holy. "

I disagree with you because we read in the Quran:

"17.1 Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)."

The precincts of the AL-AQSA mosque includes the city because in arabic "BAARAKNAA XAWLAHU" means the mosque and its surroundings. Now how do we define the surroundings of the mosque?. Can we not say it is the whole city?. Or the verse defines specific distance from the mosque?.

Plus the jews took the lands of muslims by force so muslims can take back what belongs to them by force. They have to oragnize their acts inline with islam I agree but it is legitimate provided they choose a leader that they file behind him and thus fight with the jews. I see no objection to that. Our responsibilites are different than theirs, because we are brothers to them and are obligated to help them:

By abahureyra:

"A muslim is the brother of a muslim: he neither oppresses him nor does he fail him" related by Muslim. So, we can't fail those muslims even if their cause is clouded with suspicious idealogies. What counts for us is their being muslims and that they are fighting a common enemy of islam. Each one of us is ruled based on his heart. They get what they fought for and we get what we fought for that is if we help them.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:25 pm
formerguest, omar let the jews and christins live in juriselum and practice their religion in their holy places. he didn't kick them out. if muslims get the power now and if they kick the jews and christians out of that city, muslims would be the ones doing injustice. the country of canaan (no jerusalam and other surroundings cities and towns) were not only the homeland of several prophets but also a land 'folowing with milk and honey', but if the whole jerusalam were holy (like the cities of mecca and madina) umar would have kicked all the christians and jews out of that city.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:27 pm
formerguest, omar let the jews and christins live in juriselum and practice their religion in their holy places. he didn't kick them out. if muslims get the power now and if they kick the jews and christians out of that city, muslims would be the ones doing injustice. the country of canaan (now jerusalam and other surroundings cities and towns) were not only the homeland of several prophets but also a land 'folowing with milk and honey', but if the whole jerusalam were holy (like the cities of mecca and madina) umar would have kicked all the christians and jews out of that city.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:33 pm
"A muslim is the brother of a muslim: he neither oppresses him nor does he fail him" related by Muslim. So, we can't fail those muslims even if their cause is clouded with suspicious idealogies. What counts for us is their being muslims and that they are fighting a common enemy of islam. Each one of us is ruled based on his heart. They get what they fought for and we get what we fought for that is if we help them."

let me ask you this question: during 1977 when somalia went to war against the christian country (ethiopia) to help their muslim brothers and sisters in somali galbeed, was that war a holy war (jihad)?

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:55 pm
Asad

"jews do not have the holy mosque and they are not preventing any muslim from entering the mosque"

"No Jewish prime minister will sign (an) agreement that transfers the sovereignty of the Temple Mount (Haram Al-Sharif) to the Palestinians or to an Islamic body," Mr Barak said. (BBC NEWS)

Right now there's a shared sovereignty of Haram Al-Sharif which means both groups have access to it, since when do Muslims allow Kafirs in holy sites and allow them to worship there?

"to fight for city is not what Allah wants. to fight for islam is what Allah wants"

To have Jerusalem would mean to have Haram Al-Sharif,to give up Jerusalem would mean to give up Haram Al-Sharif therefore it is fighting for the cause of Allah. If Haram Al-Sharif was not located in Jerusalem this whole issue would have been resolved a long time ago.


"yes, but jerusalam is not what is holy. the masjidul alqsa is what is holy."

Jerusalem contains the third holliest site in Islam. Haram Al-Sharif consists of Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock, the whole site is holy not just the mosque. You can't have the mosque if you don't have Jerusalem.

"yes, but the muslim are the only ones entering there"

That's not true the Jews have a something called the "wailing wall" where they pray at the west end of Haram Al-Sharif right next to the mosque. This is unacceptable to have them worship in the holy site.What's next let the Kafirs pray in Mecca? ISLAM IS NOT SOMETHING WE COMPROMISE. Did our Prophet (SAW) not go in to mecca and destroy all the statues the Quraish used to worship? Then why is it ok for the jews to worship in OUR sacared grounds?

"no jewish is denying any muslim to enter there and perform the prayers"

That's because they don't have full control of Jerusalem.That's why there's no peace because they want to have Jerusalem (which contains Haram Al-Sharif) as their capital city and full sovereignty of it. Do you honestly believe once they have it they won't build a synagogue and deny muslims access to the Holy site?


"there is no law in the Qura'n that says no jewish or christian can live in jerisalem"

That's true, but the Allah did not say let them worship in holy sites or give it up to them.

Again, to give jerusalem up would be a great sin and fighting for it is Jihad.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 05:12 pm
asad.

Let us not forget that jerusalem was fought over many different times by muslims and christians. Jews were always minorities since they were expelled by the roman empire thousands of years ago. Of all wars christians were the ones who initiated the war by attacking jerusalem claiming to be their holy land. Islam doesn't forbid plurality of the city since jews and christians have the right to worship there as well. However, what is not allowed is for christians and jews to have the final authority and over all management of the place. They simply can't. Why did OMAR went JERUSALEM if it was wrong for him to demand the surrender of the CITY?. The Christians knew that it was in their bible that the city will be taken by muslims so they agreed to the surrender but demanded that the leader should COME FIRST TO ACCEPT THE KEYS OF THE CITY. They wanted to prove the sings of the man who would take the city. When OMAR came in walking on foot into the city and his servant and companion on the donkey, the christians recognized that was the sign in their bible and the way the city would be taken. I think muslims have the authority to the city and the right to rule it. Now, that doesn't mean they have to kick out christians and JEWS because it never HAPPENED and is not an islamic order either.

When CHRISTIANS attacked SYRIA, JERUSALEM, AND WHOLE PALESTINE from EUROPE, SALAHUDDIIN Organized the muslims to wage war to those christians who took those lands by force and claimed a right to the city that didn't belong to them. He defeated them and also LET THE CHRISTIAN LEADER walk away free to go back wherever he wanted to go. At the same time HE RESTORED TO THE CITY ITS DIGNITY OF PLURALITY and the right of every religious group to stay and worship. The main point is, NO ONE EXCEPT MUSLIMS can practice a complete impartiality to the city as MUSLIMS have done for thousands of years letting christians and jews worship there without any proplems. It is recently when these occupying forces came to the city that violence and grievance took over the cerenity of the city. Christians oppose the jewish rule over the city excpet those christian minorities who think blood is needed to be shed for jesus to return so they support THE JEWS to inflate WAR among muslims and jews.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 05:22 pm
As for the war in 1977 between somalia and ethiopia I can say the main purpose was wrong because it was for land but WAR WITH ETHIOPIA IS JUSTIFIED ANYTIME for their treatment of muslims and their enslavement of somalis and other muslims. People who live in OGADEN are more justified to decide their fate and what they want to do with their lives. If they decide it is war that resolves their proplems I am for it. I think they are more suited to explain how they view their life with the ethiopian savage machinery.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 05:50 pm
formerguest, i do not think you are saying anything different than i'm saying. people can fight for their rights. besides, no one is talking about what muslims will do if the israelis are defeated by the palestinians with the help of muslims.! business as usual? the fighting in palestine is for land and since the palestinain leaders say they want to have a secular government (not religious government) is that what Allah wants and is that jihad? what i'm saying to you guys is do not cheapen the religion and what the early muslims fought for (ISLAM). early muslims never fought for land. they did not go to places to fight in order to rule these places in un-islamic laws (secular laws). first thing first, before you guys declare jihad. i can and will fight against a kufar who stole my car, but am i doing jihad fii sabiiliAllah? i do not think so. jihad was/is/will never be for material gains-----with government that wants to rule secularism---be it juriselam or be it somali galbeed.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:06 pm
"Right now there's a shared sovereignty of Haram Al-Sharif which means both groups have access to it, since when do Muslims allow Kafirs in holy sites and allow them to worship there?"

are you saying umar did not allow the jews and christians to worship in there?

"To have Jerusalem would mean to have Haram Al-Sharif,to give up Jerusalem would mean to give up Haram Al-Sharif therefore it is fighting for the cause of Allah. If Haram Al-Sharif was not located in Jerusalem this whole issue would have been resolved a long time ago."

again, omar let the jews and christins live in juriselum and practice their religion in their holy places. he didn't kick them out. if muslims get the power now and if they kick the jews and christians out of that city, muslims would be the ones doing injustice.

"Jerusalem contains the third holliest site in Islam. Haram Al-Sharif consists of Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock, the whole site is holy not just the mosque. You can't have the mosque if you don't have Jerusalem."

wrong. muslims, christians and jews worshipped and lived site by site during umar. if you are saying that only muslim can worship there, then you are doing injustice that umar did not do.


"That's not true the Jews have a something called the "wailing wall" where they pray at the west end of Haram Al-Sharif right next to the mosque. This is unacceptable to have them worship in the holy site.What's next let the Kafirs pray in Mecca? ISLAM IS NOT SOMETHING WE COMPROMISE. Did our Prophet (SAW) not go in to mecca and destroy all the statues the Quraish used to worship? Then why is it ok for the jews to worship in OUR sacared grounds?"

umar help built churches in his hands when some of the muslims made mistakes and destroyed churches. again, muslims, christians and jews worshipped and lived site by site during umar. if you are saying that only muslim can worship there, then you are doing injustice that umar did not do.


"Do you honestly believe once they have it they won't build a synagogue and deny muslims access to the Holy site?"

if they do this, then they will be doing injustice.


(there is no law in the Qura'n that says no jewish or christian can live in jerisalem)

"That's true, but the Allah did not say let them worship in holy sites or give it up to them."

but umar let them live in jerisalem and worship. are you better than umar?

"Again, to give jerusalem up would be a great sin and fighting for it is Jihad."

no one is saying give up jerusalem.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:13 pm
"jihad was/is/will never be for material gains---be it juriselam..."

If you consider Haram Al-Sharif a materialistic gain then I have nothing to say to you because I don't think I could put into words its importance to muslims who know their faith.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:24 pm
(jihad was/is/will never be for material gains---be it juriselam with government that wants to rule secularism)

"If you consider Haram Al-Sharif a materialistic gain then I have nothing to say to you because I don't think I could put into words its importance to muslims who know their faith."

if islam (not juriselam) was very important to who live in there and million other muslim who live in other countries, they would have practiced their faith to the teeth--like the early muslims. how can you go to jihad when you can not even wake up for fajar salaat, let alone attend fajar salaat at the mosque? again, there is a verse in the Qur'an that says: Allah would not change the condition of a people unless they change themselves. a jewish army commander (a terrorist) once said that while his army was occupying and killing innocent people with the help of the US. "when the muslims start practicing and filling up the mosques as they do it in friday prayers, then that is when we will fear them." mosques in many so-called muslim countries are not full and not even 50% of the muslims are performing their prayers. besides, if muslims love materialistic gains( secular governments) and they can not have their islamic governement, what would a land do for them? do they think LAND is important to Allah? ;-)

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:31 pm
Alyisa, which one do you think is very important to Allah: jerisalem or the Quranic law in the lives of muslims?

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:34 pm
ASAD.

With all due respect, I think, you are taking this materialistic jihad overboard. Mujahid is the one who fights to make the word of ALLAH supreme over all others. That is agreed upon by all muslims. Arabism doesn't have a place in jihad nor a land or nationalism. The proplems we are discussing here are: 1- Are we Allowed to support palestinian people because they are fighting for their rights?.

2- Are we supposed to stand aside and watch when a muslim and nonmuslim go to war?.

By the way, things escalated in the middle east now with lebanon getting involved and three jewish soldiers kidnapped and isreals killed several people in southern lebanon. I think if things go the way they look, we have real war in our hands. Frankly, I don't care if it is ARABISM on their part or LAND, What I have to care and fulfill is my part of islam that mandates the support of those muslims who might possibly go to war with the jews the same ways christians are getting ready to intervene if major war breaks out. Everybody will be brought back on his NIYAH remember?.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:36 pm
I NEVER said we should kick anyone out or Kill anyone or deny anyone the right to worship their religions.

" And fight then on untill there's no more tumult or oppression, And there prevail justice and Faith in Allah. But If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression." (Al Baqarah 193-194)


When Omar was in Jerusalem he signed a peace treaty with the Jews and the Christeans. The peace went as it follows:

"From the servant of Allah and the Commander of the Faithful, Omar: The inhabitants of Jerusalem are granted security of life and property. Their churches and crosses shall be secure. This treaty applies to all people of the city. Their places of worship shall remain intact. These shall neither be taken over nor pulled down. People shall be quite free to follow their religion. They shall not be put to any trouble..."

He never compromised Islam, he did not hand over the Holy site and he would have fought for Jerusalem had they not given it up.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:38 pm
"The proplems we are discussing here are: 1- Are we Allowed to support palestinian people because they are fighting for their rights? 2- Are we supposed to stand aside and watch when a muslim and nonmuslim go to war?. "

yes, you are allowed to help me if i'm fighting against a non-muslim or a muslim who stole my car, but am i or you doing jihad fiisabiiliAllah when i fight and when you help me? i do not think so.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:41 pm
"Unsur akhaaka thaaliman ow mathluman". "Support your brother victimizer or victimized". If the palestinians were the victimizers we would be required to stop them for aggression thus help them be safe from ALLAH'S punishment for their aggression, But if they are the victimized we have to help them. That is what counts here. See, Whether some call it jihad or not the case requires every muslim's help.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:45 pm
Asad as long as you see Jersualem as just any other land and as long as you consider gaining Haram Al-Sharif a materialistic gain then there's no use arguing because you and I will not agree.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:47 pm
Alyisa, i'm glad that you see the light. umar was a good example for the muslims. he fought for Allah's diin, not for land (juriselum). he established diin (he did not want to rule secularism). he never compromised Islam nor forced anyone into islam. he let others practice their religion in juriselum. he did not do injustice.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:51 pm
"See, Whether some call it jihad or not the case requires every muslim's help."

so if you help me when i fight against a kufar who stole my car, are you doing jihad fii sabiiliAllah? how about if the guy is muslim, are you doing jihad fiisabiiliAllah too? for me, if i fight against a guy who stole my car, i'm not doing jihad; i'm doing self-defense. i can let go my car and not fight. jihad, however, is must. you see, what i'm saying? ;-)

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:59 pm
"Asad as long as you see Jersualem as just any other land and as long as you consider gaining Haram Al-Sharif a materialistic gain then there's no use arguing because you and I will not agree."

what you do not understand is that if and when i want to go jihad, i'm going for Allah (not for jerusalem). jerusalem and Allah are not two interchangeable words. if you want to fight and help a palestinian people (muslims and christians) who want to rule un-islamic law, then go ahead, but know what you are fighing for is not jihad. if i die for un-islamic law which the palestinian muslims and their leaders want and i die there, i will not die as shaheed.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:00 pm
Asad once again your secenario is not refelecting the issue in question.
Your car has no value Islamically speaking. Recovering your car won't help Islam in anyway. On the other hand gaining Haram Al-Sharif will have an Islamic value, it will be something done in the name of Allah. It won't be a materialistic gain, infact looking at it from that prespective it's just a big block of broken walls and has no monetary value worth fighting for.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:04 pm
"Your car has no value Islamically speaking. Recovering your car won't help Islam in anyway. On the other hand gaining Haram Al-Sharif will have an Islamic value, it will be something done in the name of Allah."

again, muslim have access to the masjidul aqsa. they do their prayers in there everday (few of them anyway). most muslim go there to pray only in friday prayers. the other times, the masjid is almost empty in the five times prayers. again, what is important to Allah is not the building, but the service, Alyisa. understand that, okay?

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:07 pm
Your anology of a car versus the palestinian cause is really out of place ASAD. Tell me bro, the palestinian's cause looks like a car stolen from them to you?. Do you really take the whole matter as that?.


"so if you help me when i fight against a kufar who stole my car, are you doing jihad fii sabiiliAllah?"

I wouldn't call it jihad as I explained to you several times what JIHAD means in terms of islam. However, If I am sure that the man you are fighting with took your car and you need my help, I can help, It getting back for you what belongs to you. So, is that effort of mine done with islamic principle is wrong?. Can we help those guys out there in middle east or not ASAD?.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:12 pm
Also ASAD, You may not be aware of this but the jews decide who visits the mosque from outside israel. YUSUF ISLAM was denied this year to visit the mosque and was arrested at the AIRPORT. I don't know how you buy this free access diatribe. Have you been to jerusalem bro?.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:14 pm
Who said the Palestinians don't want Islamic government? Arafaat? The man who is just as responsible for the situation in the middle east as the Jews and christeans? Surely you know he's just a puppet to the Kufars.

You don't consider liberating Muslim lands as Jihad, then what did the people of Abu Bakar and Omar die for when they were liberating Iran, Lebonon, Syria and that whole area from the Christeans? Are you saying they did not die as Shaheeds?

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:15 pm
"Your anology of a car versus the palestinian cause is really out of place ASAD. Tell me bro, the palestinian's cause looks like a car stolen from them to you?. Do you really take the whole matter as that?

the anology was a response this: "Are we supposed to stand aside and watch when a muslim and nonmuslim go to war?." i asked you if you help me (as a muslim) when i fight against a kufar who stole my car, are you doing jihad fii sabiiliAllah?

"Can we help those guys out there in middle east or not ASAD?."

you can help asad and any muslim if you want to, but as i said, if you want to fight and help a palestinian people (muslims and christians) who want to rule un-islamic law, then go ahead, but know that what you are fighing for is not jihad. if i die for un-islamic law which the palestinian muslims and their leaders want and i die there, i will not die as shaheed.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:23 pm
"Who said the Palestinians don't want Islamic government? Arafaat? The man who is just as responsible for the situation in the middle east as the Jews and christeans? Surely you know he's just a puppet to the Kufars."

then, who wants islamic law in palestine that already established an islamic law in their own land? you and the million muslims around the world? first thing first, Alyisa. ;-). let me repeat my stand, before muslim go there and fight for land, they must first practice and they must first establish islam in their countries and lives.

"You don't consider liberating Muslim lands as Jihad"

not, when you are not doing jihad in your nafs. how can you do jihad when you and the millions of muslims do not have islamic law in their lives?

"what did the people of Abu Bakar and Omar die for"

they fought for the religion, not for lands. how many times do i have to tell you this?

"they were liberating Iran, Lebonon, Syria and that whole area from the Christeans?"

and they established islam, right? are you doing to establish islam when you go to palestine, Alyisa? my suggestion to you is to first establish islam in your place and in your live.

"Are you saying they did not die as Shaheeds?"

if they fought for land (which they did not) while their intention was to not establish islam, then their wars and their death was not jihad or shaheed.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:36 pm
Alyisa and formerguest, fyi, no sahaabi ever went to jihad to places unless he or she had an islamic law in their land and in their lives. actually, many islamic scholars say that you have to have a khalifa to declare jihad.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:49 pm
"Also ASAD, You may not be aware of this but the jews decide who visits the mosque from outside israel. YUSUF ISLAM was denied this year to visit the mosque and was arrested at the AIRPORT. I don't know how you buy this free access diatribe. Have you been to jerusalem bro?"


formerguest, i have some muslim palestinain brothers who i meet at the masjid. one of them just returned from jerusalem and told me about the condition with the muslims. he can tell you that he is unhappy with the muslim in jerusalem. he and others tell me that the masjid is empty except in the maqrib and isha prayers when some muslims come there to pray. no one is forcing the muslim from the masjid. that is very sad considering the condition they face against the israeli terrorists who rule that city. you would think the masjid (which is a great symbol for all muslims) be full all the times as they fill it in the friday prayers. i do not think i am buying diatribe from these brothers.

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:04 pm
"then, who wants islamic law in palestine that already established an islamic law in their own land? you and the million muslims around the world? first thing first, Alyisa. ;-). let me repeat my stand, before muslim go there and fight for land, they must first practice and they must first establish islam in their countries and lives."

There you go again, to you Jerusalem is just a land. Also, you grossly underestimated the number of muslims in the world....2.5 billion to be exact (although it feels like just a thousand).

There are some who do practice Islam, who do see the establishment of Khilafa as the end of our problems.I'm strongly for the establishment of Khilafa. I agree the muslim ummah needs revival big time. But no matter how weak our imam is I don't think it'll ever be weak enough to the point where we start handing over sacred grounds to the non believers.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:13 pm
Alyisa and formerguest, let me expand this thought and ask a questions: as you know, jihad is a must (waajib) for the muslims. and if jihad is a waajib, are all muslims in the world today (those who can physically fight) be sinning when they do not go jihad? what is preventing them to go jihad? is not the answer that they sleeping and not practicing the religion? which one is first-----jihad (going to war) or-----practicing the religion? can someone who does not practice the religion (does not pray for example or does not have islamic law in his life) be in jihad? is that be acceptable?

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Alyisa

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:26 pm
"which one is first-----jihad (going to war) or-----practicing the religion?"

Yes I agree... know Islam, practice Islam and have full knowledge of Islam before you decide to fight for it.

"can someone who does not practice the religion (does not pray for example or does not have islamic law in his life) be in jihad? is that be acceptable?"

It's silly to expect someone who is not willing to take 3 minutes for each salaat to be willing to give up their life for Jihad. The muslims who go to Jihad are the ones that have a strong imam because only that kind of muslim would give up their life for Allah.

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formerguest

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:27 pm
Okey Asad, If we measure muslims of today based on their shortcomings, I don't think somalis would be qualified of any help. They are just a bunch of losers who destroyed everything they stood for. Just because they don't seem to get along and everyone wants to be the president doesn't make them unqualified for help. WE can't deny somalis need all the help they can get to succeed SO ARE THOSE PALESTINIANS. One thing is important; THE BLOOD OF A MUSLIM is not free. People should be made accountable for it. What we need is a leadership that solves our proplems for us and directs us to what we need to do. THE BLOOD OF THE MUSLIM IS AS IMPORTANT AS ANYTHING ELSE IN ISLAM. IT CAN'T BE SPILT BY WHOMEVER.

Let us call it a night for now. I will work on some machine then get back to see what you have up to your sleeve. I have a lot more to ask.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:32 pm
"There you go again, to you Jerusalem is just a land."

yes, jerusalem is just a land (a city) which there is in there the holy mosque of alqasa. the masjid is the important place in that city. if jerusalem were like mecca and madina, only muslims would have lived there.

"Also, you grossly underestimated the number of muslims in the world....2.5 billion to be exact (although it feels like just a thousand)."

last time, i read or heard, we were 1 billion muslims. i did not know that there were 2.5 billions of us in the world. anyway, what counts is not the number, the number that practice the religion. when more muslims practice the religion, then that is when we will succeed against the enemies of islam. no practice, no success (it is in the Qur'an).

"There are some who do practice Islam, who do see the establishment of Khilafa as the end of our problems."

that is not enough, but yes, there must be khalifa first. then, success will come. how do we get khalifa? by practicing the religion, right?

"But no matter how weak our imam is I don't think it'll ever be weak enough to the point where we start handing over sacred grounds to the non believers."

you do not have to give it up. they will take it by force. Allah will not help you if you are weak in faith. you have to change and be faithful. there is a verse in the Qur'an that says: Allah would not change the condition of a people unless they change themselves.

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 08:46 pm
Alyisa, your last posting, we are in the same page. the early muslims succeeded not because they were more of them than the enemy, not because they had powerful weapons, but almost all of them had faith. they practiced the religion to the teeth. one time, in the battle of uhud, they were more of them and they were winning and almost defeated the enemy of islam, but when some of them thought that they won because of their power; some of them did not follow the ordres from the prophet; some of them rushed to material gains (the spoils of wars) while the war was going on, then Allah's help was lifted from them. the fight went to the enemies way and the muslims were defeated. some of them lost the faith. also, in the battle of badar. muslims were less than the enemy of islam, but they had faith and followed the prophets orders. Allah helped them and send them thousands of angels to help them. as i said before, if you do jihaad for Allah's diin, then He will help you---in other word, help His diin by practicing, then His help will be with you. if you do not change your condition, He will not do it for you. "waladiina jaahiduuna fiinaa lanah diyanahum subulanaa wa ina Laaha la macalil muxsiniin"

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asad

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 09:11 pm
"Okey Asad, If we measure muslims of today based on their shortcomings, I don't think somalis would be qualified of any help. They are just a bunch of losers who destroyed everything they stood for."


although somalis never had an islamic law in their country, Allah gave them chance and let them decide. they decided what is good for them and they got what they wanted. however, Allah gives people many many chances. Allah does not care about who is a somali and who is a palestinian. you have to earn Allah's help by practicing His religion. the sahaaba suffered and sacrificed for the diin and then Allah gave them success.

"Just because they don't seem to get along and everyone wants to be the president doesn't make them unqualified for help"

Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they decide to change themselves. Allah's help is near, but if you never ask Him and instead you want help from some other sources, then do not blame Him when he does not help.

"What we need is a leadership that solves our problems for us and directs us to what we need to do"

we need Allah. Allah gives corrupted people corrupted leaders. He gives righteous people to righteous leaders.

"THE BLOOD OF THE MUSLIM IS AS IMPORTANT AS ANYTHING ELSE IN ISLAM. IT CAN'T BE SPILT BY WHOMEVER"

muslims blood spilled by other muslims is the worst.

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Anonymous

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 10:31 pm
University of Essex Islamic Society
Al-Albaanee on Jihaad Translation
by Brother Rafi Shafi

The following is a translation from 'Fataawaa al-Albaanee' (a transcription of some of the cassettes of the shaikh):

when the shaikh was asked his opinion on jihaad.

The Answer: "With respect to Jihad, O my brother, in this time and before this time it is fard ayn, because the problem at hand is not a problem of Bosnia and Cechnya (alone) which has again moved the emotions of the muslim youth. For here we have neighbouring us, the Jews who have occupied Palestine, and not a single Islamic country has moved to establish the obligation of making Jihad with them, and evicting them and throwing them in the sea, as some of or one of the presidents of the Islamic lands used to say. And the point is that Jihad is fard ayn, because many of the muslim lands have been occupied in the past and the present by the kuffaar. And the likes of this occupation is not hidden from the muslim who concerns himself with the affairs of the muslims, not to speak of the Islamic groups or Islamic sects or Islamic lands. But Jihad has pillars and conditions, and we - the group of muslim scholars - believe that the obligatory Jihad is only obligatory upon those muslims who would help one another to establish what Allaah has obligated upon them from the jihad against the kuffaar, and evicting them from the lands they have occupied. And we do not need now to relate the evidences from the Book and Sunnah, for this point has no difference of opinion over it between the scholars - that jihad is fard ayn when an area of the muslim land is occupied, so how about when the occupation has occurred in many lands?! But, unfortunately I wish to say that this jihad which is fard - rather fard ayn - is not possible to be established by individuals as occurs in the question, rather not even by some of the Islamic groups. Because the likes of this jihad, especially in our times in which the means of fighting have become many, is not possible to be established by the Islamic groups not to speak of individuals! But the obligation is upon the countries, and those Islamic countries that have the strength to prepare for war, and the means of modern day warfare, by which if they gathered together sincerely for this jihad they would establish the fard ayn. But, very unfortunately, these countries have not moved a limb to establish this. So maybe they refer the matter of this jihad to the various Islamic groups and sects, while these are not capable of doing anything to stop the advance/attack of the kuffaar. And the current affairs bear witness to the fact that any Islamic group that tries, either to fight the aggressor as occurred in Afghanistan for example, or by revolting against the ruler whose kufr has become clear, like in Algeria for example - then these unfortunate occurrences indicate that the individual jihad or group jihad does not produce the expected fruit, and that is that the Word of Allaah be made supreme. So therefore, we believe that this Jihad is not possible except under an Islamic authority firstly, and under an Islamic group comprising of people from different lands, not just one land or one region. And add to this the necessity that taqwa of Allaah be present, by staying away from what Allaah has prohibited from the matters that are well known amongst the muslims, but unfortunately they are very far from putting into practice. And we have mentioned - and I am trying to summarise my words as much as possible - many times that what has befallen the muslims today, this humiliation and abasement/ignominy that has not been known in the history of Islaam at all, is that the muslims have misapplied, at the very least, one verse of the Quraan....and that is the saying of Allaah, "if you help Allaah, Allaah will Help you." And there is no doubt that this Help of the muslims from Allaah, is Help in making the Laws of the Shariah an observable reality, and this unfortunately is not realised in the majority of the Islamic lands, or in the muslim individuals. And those amongst the muslim lands that do have some remnants of ruling by the Law of Allaah have not, uptil now proclaimed the call to Jihaad. And due to this the muslim individuals and nations will remain weak as long as none of the Islamic lands lift the flag of Jihad, and that Jihad which calls for fighting those nearest them, not those that are far far away. For the muslims, with their lands, and groups, and sects, and as individuals, if they cannot establish Jihad with those that neighbour them or are close to them then they are not capable of making Jihad with those that are distant from them....for example Eritrea, ,Somalia, Bosnia and Cechnya. And due to this we mention now, that it is upon the Muslim youth as individuals and groups and sects that they spread the correct Islamic awareness in the lands firstly, and then in the rulers secondly - and that (correct understanding) is that all of these people rule by what Allaah has revealed. The ruler that he rules by what Allaah has revealed and ordered. The individual that he rules by what Allaah has revealed... I know that today many of the individuals, and groups and sects, throw the responsibilty (of the state of affairs) onto the rulers only, while in my certain belief the responsibility equally falls upon these individuals, groups and sects, as it falls upon these rulers! This is because these governments arose from the lands of these muslims.....these muslims who were addressed by two hadeeth from the Messenger (SAW)....the first his (SAW) saying,'when you deal with interest, and hold fast to the tail of the cow, and become contented with agriculture, and you leave Jihad in the Way of Allaah, Allaah will permit your humiliation and will not lift it from you until you return to your deen.' And the second hadeeth, his (SAW) saying, '"the nations summon each other upon you as you call guests to eat from a plate of food", they said , "will we be few in number on that day O Messenger of Allaah?" He said, "no rather you will be many on that day, but you will be like the foam on the ocean. And Allaah will remove the fear in the hearts of your enemies and place in your hearts al-wahn". They said, "what is al-wahn O Messenger of Allaah?" He said, "love of this world and hatred of death."' And these occurrences which are mentioned by the Messenger (SAW) in this hadeeth have now occurred in every muslim society, and they are from the clear afflictions that necessitate the descent of this humiliation upon the muslims until the hearts of the rulers, and individuals become totally covered in black (due to their sins). The muslim lands do not rule by what Allaah revealed, and if there is one amongst them that does (claim to) rule by what Allaah revealed, then the first clear indication that it does not rule by what Allaah revealed is that it does not raise the call for Jihad. So if this time is not the time in which Jihad in the Way of Allaah does not become obligatory, and many of the muslims lands have been occupied, then when will this Jihad become obligatory? But the problem - and this is the heart of the matter - is that there is no one amongst us who is capable of undertaking (this jihad), why?.....Because we are drowning in sins, and drowning in sectarian differences and national differences, and we know that one of the doorways to weakness and defeat is that the muslims differ amongst themselves. And we have been tried recently with a very sad trial, and that is the Afghani Jihad, where we were hoping that its endpoint would be victory for the muslims, and there were strong signs for placing the seed of the Islamic state. Then the end and result turned out to be totally opposite (to what was hoped) due to the early signs of victory over the enemy, the communists (shuyuiyyeen), diminished when the differences between the tribes made them split into seven groups, and their Islam which they took as deen did not prevent them from doing this, and our Lord says, "and do not be from the mushriks. From those that split their deen and became sects, each sect rejoicing in what it has." Therefore, it is upon the one who desires to go on Jihad that he gets the means of jihad, and the means of aquiring victory, and that is not realisable in our times unfortunately. And Allaah says in the Noble Quran, "indeed Allaah will not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves." Therefore we call the Muslim individuals, and groups and sects, not to speak of the governments that they concern themselves by spreading the purified, authentic Islam, purified from every spurious element that has entered it with the passing of time, and then bring up the muslims on this purified Islaam. The day when these signs begin, and become clear in this vast Islamic land, that day shall the signs of getting ready to establish this fard ayn Jihaad begin. These anxious individuals that go to many of the muslim lands invaded/attacked by the kuffaar like Bosnia and Chechnya for example..... what are the weapons that they have with them? who are the leaders who can discipline them and make them fight under one authority and under one flag? So if there was a single authority then we would see the (fruits) of the Jihad as we saw them in Afghanistan (i.e victory over the aggressor). Therefore Allaah says, "and prepare for them what you can from stength and weapons to strike fear into the hearts of the enemies of Allaah and your enemies". Where is this preperation?! And who is the one capable of this preparation? The individual?! No, the governments?...yes the governments, and it is possible for us to say that they do establish a small amount of this preperation.....but this preparation is taken from their enemies..... so if there was a jihad established between the kaafir and muslims, then soon these muslims would not be capable of supplying their armies with the necessary weapons except by buying them from their enemies. So can their be victory and Jihad by buying weapons from the enemies of the muslims?! This is impossible, and due to this, this preparation ordered us, cannot be established even by the Islamic countries, because the Islamic countries buy their weapons of destruction from their enemies and aggreviated states. And there are ways of making these weapons malfunction when they (the muslims) intend to use then against the kaafir enemy. And due to this I say, and I finish my words and reply upon this question that Allaah, when He said, "And prepare for them what you can...." this address was to the Companions of the Prophet (SAW), then the address is directed to the generality of muslims due to the generality of the text. But this address was directed to the Sahaabah after they were brought up on the authentic Islamic upbringing until it was possible for them to establish the likes of this address - preparing the worldly might after preparing the spiritual might in themselves or with themselves, due to the upbringing they went through at the hands of their Prophet (SAW). And history repeats itself.....So there has to be an upbringing of a nation from the Islamic nations so that is may be possible for this nation to establish this worldly preparedness, and we today do not find a nation that has established this obligation which we can depict in two words: tasfiyyah (correction) and tarbiyyah (education/cultivation). (Rather) we see us as scattered individuals here and there. And if there were a group, and over this group a leader who has the allegiance of all the muslims, and he raises the flag of Jihad against the enemies: this has not happened yet, and due to this we call for the existence of this introduction/predicate to this holy Jihaad. And as for running (of these people) behind emotions when the spiritual jihad has not even been realised in them - and that is the correct understanding of Islaam, and applying it collectively, and that there be over them a leader after that, and he enjoins them to prepare what they can from strength and weapons: So the day we see the likes of this, that day the muslims will rejoice in the victory of Allaah, and Allaah Helps whom He Wills. This is my answer to your question."

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MAD MAC

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:06 pm
I'm impressed. Finally an argument which doesn't revolve arund me.

Formerguest:
You are as bloodthirsty as Madeleine Albright. Are you sure you two aren't related??? Just as fast as you stated that war with Ethiopia in 1977 was not Jihad you quickly followed with a good justification to fight the Ethiopians at every turn. I have a suspicion that every conflict which involves Muslims, you are going to come down on the side of the Muslims, regardless of the source of the conflict. I'll bet you even support those freaks in the Phillipines who keep kidnapping folks.

Asad
Got a question for you? If I and my associates were to establish an orphanage in Somalia, how would you like a position teaching Islam? I mean, the kids will need religious teaching and you know your stuff. Don't worry, I won't embarras you. I doubt we'll have much money, but there's the satisfaction of doing the right thing, know what I mean?

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:07 pm
I am back on the air.

ASAD.

" Allah gives corrupted people corrupted leaders. He gives righteous people to righteous leaders." TRUE.

However, Muslims don't unite on wrong-doings. Those who do good deeds will not be safe from the punishments aimed at those who do bad deeds. Because it is said in the Quran to fear FITNAH(MUSIIBAH) that will not only touch the wrong-doers among MUSLIMS. Once the punishement comes down it generalizes all. And when AISHA asked about the reason of the SALIXIN(pious) being punished amongst the BAD ONES, The prophet scw told AISHA that all are punished but people are rewarded based on their individual deeds. So, not all somalis or arabs are corrupt.

What I meant leaders was, the kind of leaders that the Quran talks about. Once we get straight and by the QURAN leaders, things wouldn't be the same as they are now. We have unity then under one guidance. Unanimous decisions can be made based on islam. I DON'T THINK ISRAEL would DO what it is doing today if muslims were organized under the leadership of IMAM who follows the QURAN.

"muslims blood spilled by other muslims is the worst. "

That doesn't justify their blood spilled by the jews does it ASAD?. Just muslims kill each other doesn't mean all others can take their share of the blood and get away with it.

Say ASAD, following your logic of the unpracticing muslims I can deduce this; Bosnians and all eastern europian muslims don't know islam very much and thus we have to do nothing if they are attacked by others. The help we offer to other muslims doesn't have a condition attached to it as to whether those muslims are practicing muslims or not. That would be a mistake and unreligious. You can't pick and choose among muslims when their blood is at stake. We don't have the proper religious leadership that muslims can file behind to do something about such proplems, Untill we get those leaders I guess the religious scholars will decide for us whether an act of war is legitimate or not. I am sure, the defence of muslims is an act of WORSHIP and doesn't require scrutiny of their performance of islam. No one is perfect. If perfection was the end that justified the means, no one would get the mercy of ALLAH. Disbelievers wouldn't enjoy such a lavish life which they didn't create in the first place. Allah knows that people can't be perfect and without mistakes, thus he ordered them to fear him as much as they can.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 11:57 pm
MAD.

"You are as bloodthirsty as Madeleine Albright. "

You can have it your way ace. I am not offended at all by your relief. You can have it while it lasts.

"Just as fast as you stated that war with Ethiopia in 1977 was not Jihad you quickly followed with a good justification to fight the Ethiopians at every turn."

JIHAD is an act of worship. A must be done deeds in islam. However, it is not every war that is called JIHAD. As stated above many times: JIHAD is the fighting in the cause of islam, to make the word of god supreme above all other words. Muslims to wage this war they need a leadership that follows the QURAN and can guide them through the task. When somalis went to war with ethiopia they didn't want to make islam supreme, it was a piece of land they were fighting for. They were wrong to do. It wasn't jihad. Now, since that is clear, My justifications to fight the ethiopians depends largely on the muslims who live under its rule and how they decide to do with their lives.. If they are not satisfied with what they have, they can fight ethiopians for demanding their freedom. No one can deny that. There is legitimacy to their cause. I don't need to quote here what ethiopians do to muslims in their country. Muslims are not supposed to die just like goats that be slaughtered anytime.

" I have a suspicion that every conflict which involves Muslims, you are going to come down on the side of the Muslims, regardless of the source of the conflict".

You can't undestand the bond between muslims mad, Thus you can view their brotherhood as bias. It doesn't matter. I am oblidged to help the muslims twice I repeat. 1- If he is the aggressor, I have to stop him, thus helping him be safe from ALLAH'S PUNISHMENTS. B- If he is the aggressed, I must help him win over his aggressor. I hope I made my point loud and clear.

" I'll bet you even support those freaks in the Phillipines who keep kidnapping folks. "

Wrong. You lost your betting. I don't support the kidnapping of the innocent people by muslims regardless of their religion and nationality. Beleive muslims can punish those guys for that act of wrong-doing. But as it goes, BLAME IT ON ISLAM.

back to work and see you later all.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 06:12 am
"Asad, Got a question for you? If I and my associates were to establish an orphanage in Somalia, how would you like a position teaching Islam? I mean, the kids will need religious teaching and you know your stuff. Don't worry, I won't embarras you. I doubt we'll have much money, but there's the satisfaction of doing the right thing, know what I mean?"

well, kids (as well as grown ups) need religious teaching; we all need religious teachings, but if i were to teach islam (which i am not qualified), i would be teaching different ideologies, philosophy, beliefs, principles, ideas, creed, than what you and your associates promote. In addition, I would not be compromising the religious teachings of islam. it will be clashes, conflicts and contradictions kids will see between your associates and me. you and i will be at odds with each other all times----which will confuse the kids. imagine a church asking me to teach sunday school or the public school system in america asking me to teach islam to american kids. is that possible? ;-) would jewish family or israeli government ask me to come to their home and teach their kids islam and what the Qura'n says about them? i do not think so. besides, if i am capable of teaching islam (which i'm not), i would not be taking money out of it, but any satisfaction and pleasure that comes out of it will be all for Allah.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 06:27 am
"However, Muslims don't unite on wrong-doings."

but muslims (almost all of them) are in unity when it comes to quite and do nothing. they no longer forbid wrong doing and enjoy doing right in their own countries. they are afraid to be killed or be put in jail by their leaders. amri-bil macruuf wanahyi canil-munkar is the most important practice in islam. if muslims do not speak out and face their corrupted leaders and preach the truth, but scared of what might happen to them, then they are as guilty as them. thus, they deserve the kinds of leader they get. for example, arafat and siyad barre did not prevent muslims not to attend prayers and practice the religion. what is the percentage of muslims who used to perform the prayers in somalia? if we return to the country, it will be business as usual and you and i will be crying and blaming our leaders again and again. first think first, my friend. put your house in order first, than go to other places to reque them. how can you defend other muslims when you can not defend your own kind?

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Alyisa

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 11:00 am
check this out, it contains pictures of Palestinian victims.

http://www.angelfire.com/wv/2u/massacre.htm

Asad:
"if muslims do not speak out and face their corrupted leaders and preach the truth, but scared of what might happen to them, then they are as guilty as them. thus, they deserve the kinds of leader they get."

If you and I don't speak out then who will? If you and I don't tell the Jews no they can't have Haram Al-Sharif who will? Are we not guilty if the Jews took Haram Al-Sharif by force and we did not try to stop them by declaring Jihad on them?


Formerguest:
"I am sure, the defence of muslims is an act of WORSHIP and doesn't require scrutiny of their performance of islam."

I couldn't agree more.

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Muslimah

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 12:14 pm
Aliyas,Formergues,Asad

You guys Mansha,allah....Although you agree some points, you disagree others and that is what make debates intresting thing to follow....Mansha,allah you guys know a lot about Islam my Allhah increase your Knowlages...Hope you conteneue, Cuz some one like me and my Friends who just started Practising Islam reacently did learn a lot from here...so my allah bless u!

Aliyas
How Truthfull and Encouraging your Words are my Br, honestly I feel like craying!

"If you and I don't speak out then who will? If you and I don't tell the Jews no they can't have Haram Al-Sharif who will? Are we not guilty if the Jews took Haram Al-Sharif by force and we did not try to stop them by declaring Jihad on them?"
*Yes we are*

Asad my br,
You keep Comparing Problems in Somaliya and Phalestine, they are Totaly Different when it cames to Islam.

Peace all

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 12:45 pm
(if muslims do not speak out and face their corrupted leaders and preach the truth, but scared of what might happen to them, then they are as guilty as them. thus, they deserve the kinds of leader they get.)


"If you and I don't speak out then who will?

if we do not have rightiousness in your life, you can not speak out for others.

"If you and I don't tell the Jews no they can't have Haram Al-Sharif who will?"

you can speak out, but when you tell the jews they can not have jurisalem and tell them you need jurisalem to be only a muslim place, they will laugh at you. they will tell you did you speak out when your people were killing you and kicking your family out of your country? what power do you have to come to jurisalem to take over? ;-)

"Are we not guilty if the Jews took Haram Al-Sharif by force and we did not try to stop them by declaring Jihad on them?"

you can declare jihad for jurisalem, but when you can not declare jihad in your life, that is double standard (contradiction). there is a verse in the Qura'n that says: "do you enjoin rightousness for others when you forget yourself?" ;-)

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 12:50 pm
"You keep Comparing Problems in Somaliya and Phalestine, they are Totaly Different when it cames to Islam."

somalis are muslims, aren't them? which problem is worst? somali muslims killing each other and israelis killing palestinian muslims if you think there is difference? when it comes to islam, no arab palestinian muslim is better than somali muslim. in islam, the blood of a muslim is better than jurisalem and even the blood of a muslim is better than the kaba in mecca, do you know that? ;-)

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Muslimah

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 01:01 pm
Asad
Br don,t misunderstand me..am not saying here any Muslim is better than the other,what i am traying to say is....The War in Somaliya was Muslim Killing Muslim therefore who is there to Support?Supporting one and Condeming the other,it does not not make any Differens(In terms of Islam)atleast that is my Views.....

On the Other hand, Phlestine is Muslims who their Land taken a way(Yahuud) and other Kafirs...although they may Fighting their Land they Fighting whit Enemy, Enemy of Islam...The Enemy allah (swt)mention his Book many times...The enemy who want destory Islam and its History...so that makes Somaliya and Phalestine Different.
pease

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Alyisa

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 01:08 pm
"you can declare jihad for jurisalem, but when you can not declare jihad in your life, that is double standard (contradiction). there is a verse in the Qura'n that says: "do you enjoin rightousness for others when you forget yourself?" ;-) "
You and I are not even on the same page. So let's get back to the issue at hand.

When muslims fight for Jerusalem/Haram Al-Sharif are they fighting Jihad? If no, why not?


Muslimah u seem to think I'm a male,I'm actually a female sister. Hmm... maybe I should change my username

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Muslimah

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 01:12 pm
Asad


"you can speak out, but when you tell the jews they can not have jurisalem and tell them you need jurisalem to be only a muslim place, they will laugh at you. they will tell you did you speak out when your people were killing you and kicking your family out of your country? what power do you have to come to jurisalem to take" over? ;-)


I thing you miss whole the point here
when other Brothers discussing this Topic I.e aliyas, they are speaking Islamic point Of Views...put your Point seems much into Somaliya....forget about Somaliya now, Cuz there is no Huhuud killing them, so if Aliyas goes to (Jihad) I don,t think Yahuuds have any say about His Nationality....cuz he is there to Fulfill his islamic masege...which is Muslims are
ONE..therefore they have to stop the enemy of Allah...like Yahuud.
peace

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 01:20 pm
"When muslims fight for Jerusalem/Haram Al-Sharif are they fighting Jihad? If no, why not?"

when palestinians (muslims and christians) fight for jurisalem and when they want to rule it as they rule their lives (secular laws) and not declaring islamic law in their lives, then that is not jihad. it is like i'm traveling on camel to mecca, but my intention is not to perform the hajj when i get there---because i do not even perform the salaat. am i getting any reward for my traveling to mecca?

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 01:27 pm
"they are speaking Islamic point Of Views"

i'm speaking of islamic point of views too.

"but your Point seems much into Somaliya....forget about Somaliya now, Cuz there is no Huhuud killing them"

why forget about somalia? aren't somalis muslims? which one is worst---somalis killing of each and israelis killing palestinian muslims?

"therefore they have to stop the enemy of Allah...like Yahuud..cuz he is there to Fulfill his islamic masege...which is Muslims are
ONE"

if muslims are ONE, then there is no different between somali killing and palestinian killing, right? if israeli's killing muslims makes them the enemy of Allah, then somalis killing muslims makes them the enemy of Allah, right?

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Alyisa

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 02:31 pm
"when palestinians (muslims and christians) fight for jurisalem and when they want to rule it as they rule their lives (secular laws) and not declaring islamic law in their lives, then that is not jihad."

First, I asked you about MUSLIMS fighting for Haram Al-Sharif....99.9% if not 100% of the Palestinians fighting for Jerusalem are muslims. You're crazy to think a christean will risk getting killed to safe the holy site. Infact aren't the christeans (Britian) the ones who established Israel in 1948?
Second, we are talking about liberating Haram Al-Sharif from the Jews, we're not talking about imposing islamic laws just yet, that would be done with establishment of Khilfah and the union of all the muslims nations(and this will happen). It was sad back in 1948 when Israel was established and the majority of the Ummah sat in silence knowing very well that a large number of muslims faught and died to liberate Palestine 800yrs prior.It would be sad now if muslims died for Jerusalem now only to have another fake leader like Araafat rule it. Never the less, this isn't to say muslims today should sit in silence while the Jews take Haram Al-Sharif away from the muslims.

I see you still can't understand why the situation in Somali is very different from that of Palestine. I wouldn't die for Somalia but I would die for Jerusalem/Haram Al-Sharif because I'm a MUSLIM before I'm a Somali.
It doesn't look like you and I are going to reach an understanding, but alhamudlilah we're still muslims and we're still brother and sister.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 03:35 pm
"First, I asked you about MUSLIMS fighting for Haram Al-Sharif....99.9% if not 100% of the Palestinians fighting for Jerusalem are muslims."

the muslims can and are allowed to preform prayers in the masjid. palestinian muslims are not the ones fighting palestine. in fact, the palestinian leaders have in their cabinet christian leaders.

"You're crazy to think a christean will risk getting killed to safe the holy site"

muslims as well as christian palestinian are fighting for their rights. and that is good, but to fight for land (a country, a nationalistic) is not jihad, is it, alyisa?

"Infact aren't the christeans (Britian) the ones who established Israel in 1948?"

if that is a fact, then why are there christian palestinian leaders fighting against israel?

"Second, we are talking about liberating Haram Al-Sharif from the Jews"

did you read the example i gave you where if i'm traveling on a camel to mecca, but my intention is not to perform the hajj when i get there---because i do not even perform the salaat. am i getting any reward for my traveling to mecca? those who are saying they want to liberate Haram Al-Sharif from the Jews do not even perform prayers.!

"we're not talking about imposing islamic laws just yet, that would be done with establishment of Khilfah and the union of all the muslims nations(and this will happen)"

imposing islamic laws in your life is more important than fighting for land. first thing first, alyisa. the prophet and his followers did not say lets fight first for mecca---the islamic law in their lives can wait, did they?

"It was sad back in 1948 when Israel was established and the majority of the Ummah sat in silence knowing very well that a large number of muslims faught and died to liberate Palestine 800yrs prior"

when omar and the sahaaba went to librate palestine, they had already in their lives an islmaic law.

"It would be sad now if muslims died for Jerusalem now only to have another fake leader like Araafat rule it."

that is right. if the muslim die now for a land (jerusalem) while they are not practicing the islamic law in their lives, then it will be sad.

"Never the less, this isn't to say muslims today should sit in silence while the Jews take Haram Al-Sharif away from the muslims."

what the muslims instead should do is to practice islam 100% and establish islamic law in their lives first.

"I see you still can't understand why the situation in Somali is very different from that of Palestine. I wouldn't die for Somalia but I would die for Jerusalem/Haram Al-Sharif because I'm a MUSLIM before I'm a Somali."

one somali muslim blood is more important than jerusalem and mecca put together. that is what you do not understand.

"It doesn't look like you and I are going to reach an understanding, but alhamudlilah we're still muslims and we're still brother and sister"

we will always be muslims. muslim blood is more important than any building in the world.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 03:38 pm
First, I asked you about MUSLIMS fighting for Haram Al-Sharif....99.9% if not 100% of the Palestinians fighting for Jerusalem are muslims."

the muslims can and are allowed to preform prayers in the masjid. palestinian muslims are not the ONLY ones fighting palestine. in fact, the palestinian leaders have in their cabinet christian leaders.

"You're crazy to think a christean will risk getting killed to safe the holy site"

muslims as well as christian palestinian are fighting for their rights. and that is good, but to fight for land (a country, a nationalistic) is not jihad, is it, alyisa? palestinian people are fighting for palestinian flag.

"Infact aren't the christeans (Britian) the ones who established Israel in 1948?"

if that is a fact, then why are there christian palestinian leaders fighting against israel?

"Second, we are talking about liberating Haram Al-Sharif from the Jews"

did you read the example i gave you where if i'm traveling on a camel to mecca, but my intention is not to perform the hajj when i get there---because i do not even perform the salaat. am i getting any reward for my traveling to mecca? those who are saying they want to liberate Haram Al-Sharif from the Jews do not even perform prayers.!

"we're not talking about imposing islamic laws just yet, that would be done with establishment of Khilfah and the union of all the muslims nations(and this will happen)"

imposing islamic laws in your life is more important than fighting for land. first thing first, alyisa. the prophet and his followers did not say lets fight first for mecca---the islamic law in their lives can wait, did they?

"It was sad back in 1948 when Israel was established and the majority of the Ummah sat in silence knowing very well that a large number of muslims faught and died to liberate Palestine 800yrs prior"

when omar and the sahaaba went to librate palestine, they had already in their lives an islmaic law.

"It would be sad now if muslims died for Jerusalem now only to have another fake leader like Araafat rule it."

that is right. if the muslim die now for a land (jerusalem) while they are not practicing the islamic law in their lives, then it will be sad.

"Never the less, this isn't to say muslims today should sit in silence while the Jews take Haram Al-Sharif away from the muslims."

what the muslims instead should do is to practice islam 100% and establish islamic law in their lives first.

"I see you still can't understand why the situation in Somali is very different from that of Palestine. I wouldn't die for Somalia but I would die for Jerusalem/Haram Al-Sharif because I'm a MUSLIM before I'm a Somali."

one somali muslim blood is more important than jerusalem and mecca put together. that is what you do not understand.

"It doesn't look like you and I are going to reach an understanding, but alhamudlilah we're still muslims and we're still brother and sister"

we will always be muslims. muslim blood is more important than any building in the world.

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 04:34 pm
Asad.

To say you have to establish law in your life to support your islamic brethren doesn't have a support. Can you bring a verse that states "Help to muslims must be done if you/they are practicing islam only".?. Or hadith for that matter?.


How about if we tell you "Asad don't defend islam in the forumss, go to somalia to straighten things up there first making somali deeds the condition of your defence of islam in this forums?.".

Fighting is an option given to muslims several times in the Quran to solve proplems ASAD. Take for example, Muslims are allowed to fight to quell dispute between two muslims, thus ALLAH TELLS US:

"49:9 And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command; then if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably. "

ASAD, ALLAH is giving permission to muslims to settle disputes between two muslim brothers in a war if it is neccessary WHAT ABOUT IF THE PROPLEM IS BETWEEN DISBELIEVERS SUCH AS JEWS AND CHRISTINIANS AGAINST YOUR MUSLIM BRETHREN?.

Also Allah gave muslims permission to fight the KUFFAARS WHO FIGHT WITH THEM and displace them from their homes;

"Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers) who are fighting them (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said:"Our Lord is Allah." (V.22:39,40)."

Are you saying ASAD, there is a condition in these verses that muslims have to follow?. If yes, why not quote the conditions that make MUSLIMS SITTING DUCKS that can be done with?. Your logic of making muslims the guilty party so that they can't fight their enemies is faulty ASAD.

Can muslims defend themselves or not when aggeressed or oppressed ASAD?. How about the clear ahadith that dictate the brotherhood of a muslim to the other muslim:

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection,
and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " By Bukhari.

You can't just ignore a muslim when your help is required can you ASAD?.

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 625:

Narrated Muawiya bin Suwald:

I heard Al-Bara' bin 'Azib saying, "The Prophet orders us to do seven things and prohibited us from doing seven other things." Then Al-Bara' mentioned the following:--

(1) To pay a visit to the sick (inquiring about his health),

(2) to follow funeral processions,

(3) to say to a sneezer, "May Allah be merciful to you" (if he says, "Praise be to Allah!),

(4) to return greetings,

(5) to help the oppressed,

(6) to accept invitations,

(7) to help others to fulfill their oaths. (See Hadith No. 753, Vol. 7) bY BUKHARI.

ASAD, Do yuo see the right No. (5) to help the OPPRESSED?. Tell me ASAD the palestinians are not the OPPRESSED HERE?.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 06:16 pm
"To say you have to establish law in your life to support your islamic brethren doesn't have a support. Can you bring a verse that states "Help to muslims must be done if you/they are practicing islam only".?. Or hadith for that matter?."

many times i told you that you can even help me. i told you also the history of the prophet and his followers and how they helped the diin by practicing it and then went to jihad. they did wait for the islamic law to come to their lives. they knew they could not defend islam or themselves if they did not have an islamic law in their lives.


"How about if we tell you "Asad don't defend islam in the forumss, go to somalia to straighten things up there first making somali deeds the condition of your defence of islam in this forums?."

i'm in somali forums where somalis discuss islam. i'm not claiming to be doing jihad in the forums, am i? i do not think so. ;-)

"Fighting is an option given to muslims several times in the Quran to solve proplems ASAD. Take for example, Muslims are allowed to fight to quell dispute between two muslims, thus ALLAH TELLS US"

the early muslim were ordered not to fight by the prophet. the prophet made sure that none of them fought when they were being procecuted in mecca. the prophet knew they had no chance and it was not the right time. he wanted them to have faith first. when was the right time and when the prophet then established islamic law in madina, then they fought and did jihad.


"ASAD, ALLAH is giving permission to muslims to settle disputes between two muslim brothers in a war if it is neccessary WHAT ABOUT IF THE PROPLEM IS BETWEEN DISBELIEVERS SUCH AS JEWS AND CHRISTINIANS AGAINST YOUR MUSLIM BRETHREN?."

if you read the Qur'an or the hadeeth, you will see that every time the muslims are ordered to fight, they had islamic laws in their lives.


"Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers) who are fighting them (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said:"Our Lord is Allah." (V.22:39,40)."

if you read the verse carefully, this verse was revealed after the muslims had an islamic law in their lives.


"Are you saying ASAD, there is a condition in these verses that muslims have to follow?. If yes, why not quote the conditions that make MUSLIMS SITTING DUCKS that can be done with?. Your logic of making muslims the guilty party so that they can't fight their enemies is faulty ASAD."

well, the prophet didn't think the muslims were the guilty ones when he told them to first establish faith when the arab pagans were doing injustices against the muslims. he told them when was the right time to fight and when was the wrong time to fight. the prophet's logic worked. read the history of islam, formerguest.

"Can muslims defend themselves or not when aggeressed or oppressed ASAD?."

i told you that you can defend me, didn't i?

"How about the clear ahadith that dictate the brotherhood of a muslim to the other muslim"

like the somali on somali crime, right?

"You can't just ignore a muslim when your help is required can you ASAD?"

yes, to ignore your problem (somali muslim problem) and go some where else is not good. "do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself"?

"ASAD, Do yuo see the right No. (5) to help the OPPRESSED?. Tell me ASAD the palestinians are not the OPPRESSED HERE?"

but somali people are being oppressed by muslims, right? that is what i'm telling you. did you read the fatwa by albaani----posted by the anonymous on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 03:31 am on this page?

he said: "But, unfortunately I wish to say that this jihad which is fard - rather fard ayn - is not possible to be established by individuals as occurs in the question, rather not even by some of the Islamic groups. Because the likes of this jihad, especially in our times in which the means of fighting have become many, is not possible to be established by the Islamic groups not to speak of individuals! But the obligation is upon the countries, and those Islamic countries that have the strength to prepare for war, and the means of modern day warfare, by which if they gathered together sincerely for this jihad they would establish the fard ayn. But, very unfortunately, these countries have not moved a limb to establish this. So maybe they refer the matter of this jihad to the various Islamic groups and sects, while these are not capable of doing anything to stop the advance/attack of the kuffaar. And the current affairs bear witness to the fact that any Islamic group that tries, either to fight the aggressor as occurred in Afghanistan for example, or by revolting against the ruler whose kufr has become clear, like in Algeria for example - then these unfortunate occurrences indicate that the individual jihad or group jihad does not produce the expected fruit, and that is that the Word of Allaah be made supreme. So therefore, we believe that this Jihad is not possible except under an Islamic authority firstly, and under an Islamic group comprising of people from different lands, not just one land or one region. And add to this the necessity that taqwa of Allaah be present, by staying away from what Allaah has prohibited from the matters that are well known amongst the muslims, but unfortunately they are very far from putting into practice. And we have mentioned - and I am trying to summarise my words as much as possible - many times that what has befallen the muslims today, this humiliation and abasement/ignominy that has not been known in the history of Islaam at all, is that the muslims have misapplied, at the very least, one verse of the Quraan....and that is the saying of Allaah, "if you help Allaah, Allaah will Help you." And there is no doubt that this Help of the muslims from Allaah, is Help in making the Laws of the Shariah an observable reality, and this unfortunately is not realised in the majority of the Islamic lands, or in the muslim individuals. And those amongst the muslim lands that do have some remnants of ruling by the Law of Allaah have not, uptil now proclaimed the call to Jihaad. And due to this the muslim individuals and nations will remain weak as long as none of the Islamic lands lift the flag of Jihad, and that Jihad which calls for fighting those nearest them, not those that are far far away. For the muslims, with their lands, and groups, and sects, and as individuals, if they cannot establish Jihad with those that neighbour them or are close to them then they are not capable of making Jihad with those that are distant from them....for example Eritrea, ,Somalia, Bosnia and Cechnya. And due to this we mention now, that it is upon the Muslim youth as individuals and groups and sects that they spread the correct Islamic awareness in the lands firstly, and then in the rulers secondly - and that (correct understanding) is that all of these people rule by what Allaah has revealed. The ruler that he rules by what Allaah has revealed and ordered. The individual that he rules by what Allaah has revealed... I know that today many of the individuals, and groups and sects, throw the responsibilty (of the state of affairs) onto the rulers only, while in my certain belief the responsibility equally falls upon these individuals, groups and sects, as it falls upon these rulers!".........The muslim lands do not rule by what Allaah revealed, and if there is one amongst them that does (claim to) rule by what Allaah revealed, then the first clear indication that it does not rule by what Allaah revealed is that it does not raise the call for Jihad. So if this time is not the time in which Jihad in the Way of Allaah does not become obligatory, and many of the muslims lands have been occupied, then when will this Jihad become obligatory? But the problem - and this is the heart of the matter - is that there is no one amongst us who is capable of undertaking (this jihad), why?.....Because we are drowning in sins, and drowning in sectarian differences and national differences, and we know that one of the doorways to weakness and defeat is that the muslims differ amongst themselves."....."And Allaah says in the Noble Quran, "indeed Allaah will not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves." Therefore we call the Muslim individuals, and groups and sects, not to speak of the governments that they concern themselves by spreading the purified, authentic Islam, purified from every spurious element that has entered it with the passing of time, and then bring up the muslims on this purified Islaam. The day when these signs begin, and become clear in this vast Islamic land, that day shall the signs of getting ready to establish this fard ayn Jihaad begin. These anxious individuals that go to many of the muslim lands invaded/attacked by the kuffaar like Bosnia and Chechnya for example..... what are the weapons that they have with them? who are the leaders who can discipline them and make them fight under one authority and under one flag? So if there was a single authority then we would see the (fruits) of the Jihad as we saw them in Afghanistan (i.e victory over the aggressor). Therefore Allaah says, "and prepare for them what you can from stength and weapons to strike fear into the hearts of the enemies of Allaah and your enemies". Where is this preperation?! And who is the one capable of this preparation? The individual?! No, the governments?...yes the governments, and it is possible for us to say that they do establish a small amount of this preperation.....but this preparation is taken from their enemies..... so if there was a jihad established between the kaafir and muslims, then soon these muslims would not be capable of supplying their armies with the necessary weapons except by buying them from their enemies. So can their be victory and Jihad by buying weapons from the enemies of the muslims?! This is impossible, and due to this, this preparation ordered us, cannot be established even by the Islamic countries, because the Islamic countries buy their weapons of destruction from their enemies and aggreviated states. And there are ways of making these weapons malfunction when they (the muslims) intend to use then against the kaafir enemy. And due to this I say, and I finish my words and reply upon this question that Allaah, when He said, "And prepare for them what you can...." this address was to the Companions of the Prophet (SAW), then the address is directed to the generality of muslims due to the generality of the text. But this address was directed to the Sahaabah after they were brought up on the authentic Islamic upbringing until it was possible for them to establish the likes of this address - preparing the worldly might after preparing the spiritual might in themselves or with themselves, due to the upbringing they went through at the hands of their Prophet (SAW). And history repeats itself.....So there has to be an upbringing of a nation from the Islamic nations so that is may be possible for this nation to establish this worldly preparedness, and we today do not find a nation that has established this obligation which we can depict in two words: tasfiyyah (correction) and tarbiyyah (education/cultivation). (Rather) we see us as scattered individuals here and there. And if there were a group, and over this group a leader who has the allegiance of all the muslims, and he raises the flag of Jihad against the enemies: this has not happened yet, and due to this we call for the existence of this introduction/predicate to this holy Jihaad. And as for running (of these people) behind emotions when the spiritual jihad has not even been realised in them - and that is the correct understanding of Islaam, and applying it collectively, and that there be over them a leader after that, and he enjoins them to prepare what they can from strength and weapons: So the day we see the likes of this, that day the muslims will rejoice in the victory of Allaah, and Allaah Helps whom He Wills. This is my answer to your question."

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 08:17 pm
ASAD.

This issue of JIHAD doesn't have one side of opinion. It is what drove brothers and families apart and made SCHOLARS ENEMY TO EACH OTHER. I don't accept muslims wait for A KHILAFAH that doesn't come about in a night only to be slaughtered wherever they are. And if you read carefully the edict of IMAM albani, he gave the good excuse of making the responsible party governments who can collectively do more than individuals and groups can do. Having said that, IF SAUDI ARABIA IS NOT WILLING TO DECLARE KHILAFAH which is the point of all DIFFERENCE, the question I need to find an answer is "HOW CAN WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD SINCE NO GOVERNEMENT IS OFFERING A SOLUTION TO THE PLIGHT OF MUSLIMS"?. Do you know an answer to that?. Making yourself more rightious doesn't kill your enemy does it ASAD?. You are required to defend yourself. Unless you want to say that when ATTACKED WAIT FOR AN IMAM TOO?. That is not found in THE QURAN. The best of muslims in knowledge LIVE IN SAUDI ARABIA,. Since the SALAFI MOVEMENT WAS BORN IN SAUDI ARABIA people made progress, Yet they have to establish A KHILAFAH THAT IS FARDH ON MUSLIMS TO WORK FOR. I don't know if you think SAUDIS ARE THE KHULAFAA WE NEEDED. I don't think muslims can be forced to ACCEPT DEFEAT AND HUMILIATION IN THE FACE OF ADVANCING ENEMY. I agree we all need to go back to islam, to please ALLAH so that the help can come,. However, while efforts are being made around islamic countries, DACWAH is maintained, THEY HAVE TO HAVE A FRAMEWORK OF DEFENDING THEMSELVES. I don't accept from anybody that someone who is killing muslims should be given an excuse to kill. I BEG TO DIFFER WITH ANYONE WHO SUGGESTS THAT.

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formeguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 08:30 pm
"yes, to ignore your problem (somali muslim problem) and go some where else is not good. "do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself"?

When did nationality played a role in enjoining the good and forbidding Evil?. You can't franchise religion ASAD. This is a religion that promotes common brotherhood and responsibility as well as individual ones. It includes in my responsibility to do something about other muslims too who are not blood related to me. I can't lay helping others aside while I make an excuse of having not done mine. Such conditions are not found in KITAB NOR IN THE SUNNAH.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 08:55 pm
"This issue of JIHAD doesn't have one side of opinion. It is what drove brothers and families apart and made SCHOLARS ENEMY TO EACH OTHER."

but the fact is that no sahaabi ever went to jihad (to places and fight) unless he or she had an islamic law in their land and in their lives. for the sahaaba and the prophet, there was only one side and there site is the correct one.

"I don't accept muslims wait for A KHILAFAH that doesn't come about in a night only to be slaughtered wherever they are."

well, the sahaaba accepted the prophet order when he told them to first establish faith when the arab pagans were doing injustices against the muslims---he told them when was the right time to fight and when was the wrong time to fight. and i will accept the prophet's advice anytime.

"And if you read carefully the edict of IMAM albani, he gave the good excuse of making the responsible party governments who can collectively do more than individuals and groups can do"

and which government was he talking about-----an islamic governemet, right?

"Having said that, IF SAUDI ARABIA IS NOT WILLING TO DECLARE KHILAFAH which is the point of all DIFFERENCE"

first of all, does saudi arabia rule islamic law? i do not think so.

"the question I need to find an answer is "HOW CAN WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD SINCE NO GOVERNEMENT IS OFFERING A SOLUTION TO THE PLIGHT OF MUSLIMS"?. Do you know an answer to that?"

yes, i know. follow what the prophet did/said and the early muslims. to first establish faith and an islamic law in your life. the prophet taught the muslims when was the right time to fight and when was the wrong time to fight for jihad.


"Making yourself more rightious doesn't kill your enemy does it ASAD?"

rightiousness is what Allah wants. Allah is with the rightious (it is in the Qur'an). killing your enemy is not what Allah wants. Allah wants you to make yourself rightious (first and formest) before anything else.

"You are required to defend yourself"

yes, you can and you defend yourself and your people first.

"Unless you want to say that when ATTACKED WAIT FOR AN IMAM TOO?"

when i'm attacked i should fight back, but if when i'm attacked, i should not run to other places to fight for other lands. ;-)

"That is not found in THE QURAN"

the Qura'n says: "do you enjoin rightious and forget yourself?"

"The best of muslims in knowledge LIVE IN SAUDI ARABIA"

if the best muslims in knowledge live in saudi araiba, they are doing a bad job. they do not do amri bil macruuf wanahyi canil munkar. they should be getting rid of the royal family. they are not doing that. instead, they are living a good life. if the sahaaba were around, they would be declaring jihad against the royal family.

"Since the SALAFI MOVEMENT WAS BORN IN SAUDI ARABIA people made progress, Yet they have to establish A KHILAFAH THAT IS FARDH ON MUSLIMS TO WORK FOR"

i thought the albani was a salafi! at least, he was kicked out of saudi arabia when he talked against the royal family. anyway, what progress are you talking about that the salafis did?


"I don't know if you think SAUDIS ARE THE KHULAFAA WE NEEDED."

we need Allah. we need no saudis.

"I don't think muslims can be forced to ACCEPT DEFEAT AND HUMILIATION IN THE FACE OF ADVANCING ENEMY."

muslims are forcing themselves and humilating themselves. all they have to do is to follow islam and practice. if they can not do this, then they should not blame the enemy of islam. the enemy was around always. the prophet and sahaaba did what they had to do to get success.

"I agree we all need to go back to islam, to please ALLAH so that the help can come,."

that is right and there is no other way.

"However, while efforts are being made around islamic countries, DACWAH is maintained, THEY HAVE TO HAVE A FRAMEWORK OF DEFENDING THEMSELVES."

what efforts and what dacwa?

"I don't accept from anybody that someone who is killing muslims should be given an excuse to kill."

there is no excuses. Allah told you to practice and He will help you. and the prophet adviced his followers to practice first and establish islam in their lives, then fight. what you think is excuses is advice.


"I BEG TO DIFFER WITH ANYONE WHO SUGGESTS THAT."

then differ the advice of Allah and His prophet if you want and see if you get help.

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 08:56 pm
Also BRO ASAD.

I hope you have seen in the Quran ""And what reason have you not to fight in the way of Allah and for the oppressed among men and women and children who say: Our Lord ! take us forth from the town whereof the people are oppressors and grant us from you a friend and grant us from you a helper" (iv. 75).

I don't differ what JIHAD is with you. but I differ with you that If muslims are oppressed when there is no government to respond to that oppression, they can take matters into their own hands as found in the Quran. They can appoint an Imam for themselves and fight their enemies can they not ASAD?. It is disheartening to make muslims helpless even when they are ready to fight for themsleves. If muslims are devided into nations and have no islamic connection whatsoever, I say it is prudent that each islamic group defend itself since other national islamic governments don't want to move a finger to their direction. SUICIDE IS FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM AND TO SIT AROUND WHEN ISLAMIC LIVES ARE THREATENED, MASSACRED AND KILLED IS A SUICIDE. A man who defends his house and gets killed in the house is called SHAHID, HOW ABOUT WHOLE people up for slaughter houses and their defence?.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 09:06 pm
(yes, to ignore your problem (somali muslim problem) and go some where else is not good. "do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself"? )

"When did nationality played a role in enjoining the good and forbidding Evil?. You can't franchise religion ASAD. This is a religion that promotes common brotherhood and responsibility as well as individual ones. It includes in my responsibility to do something about other muslims too who are not blood related to me. I can't lay helping others aside while I make an excuse of having not done mine. Such conditions are not found in KITAB NOR IN THE SUNNAH."


oh, yes, such conditions are found in the Qur'an and the sunnah. Allah said "oh muslim save you and your family from the hell fire". if if do not take care myself (my religious duty) and i go other places, i'm not doing right. to forget yourself and your family and fight for jurisalem is no religion. "do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself"?!!!

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 09:22 pm
Asad.

"then differ the advice of Allah and His prophet if you want and see if you get help. "

I have the option within islam to choose what is best for my interest if there are two opinions each having some legitimacy. Only the prophet of islam's word is inviolable. the rest are just human beings who have flaws as much as others do. I don't mind though, if you are telling me, that I choose other opinion of jihad than IMAM ALBANI GIVES, THAT I REFUSED ALLAH'S ORDER OR HIS PROPHET. I have been there before. Albani himslef may ALLAH forgive him admitted that other scholars are not in difference with him over the principles of jihad but other matters of conflict that is raging in many islamic countries. I know ALBANI would have approved my decision and wouldn't have said to me what we say to each other when we have a difference of opinion. Islam is liberty and freedom that teaches someone to be open minded and respect the difference of opinion someone else has. If you read all books of islam, scholars always quote in their books their differences with others so people might be exposed to the different opinion. We students though, like to smear irreligiousity on others who don't accept the opinion of a particular scholar. One reason I have no MADHAB nor particular affliation is the wonder I recieve from comparison and accept what is best in HUJO(DALIIL).

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 09:34 pm
"I hope you have seen in the Quran ""And what reason have you not to fight in the way of Allah and for the oppressed among men and women and children who say: Our Lord ! take us forth from the town whereof the people are oppressors and grant us from you a friend and grant us from you a helper" (iv. 75)."

as i pointed out earlier and as albani said himself these verses and many others was addressed and directed to the Sahaabah after they were brought up on the authentic Islamic upbringing until it was possible for them to establish the likes of this address. earlier when the sahaaba were oppressed by the pagan arabs (their men and women and children), the prophet adviced them not to fight until they practiced and establish islamic laws in their lives.

"I don't differ what JIHAD is with you. but I differ with you that If muslims are oppressed when there is no government to respond to that oppression, they can take matters into their own hands as found in the Quran."

i do not think the prophet was going against these Qur'anic orders when he adived the muslims not to fight until they established islamic law in their lives.

"They can appoint an Imam for themselves and fight their enemies can they not ASAD?"

but muslims have to first practice islamic law in their lives before they appoint anybody.

"It is disheartening to make muslims helpless even when they are ready to fight for themsleves"

the sahaaba suffered more in the hands of the enemy and they were dishearten more than you when the prophet ordered them to first establish islam in their lives before doing anything.


"If muslims are devided into nations and have no islamic connection whatsoever, I say it is prudent that each islamic group defend itself since other national islamic governments don't want to move a finger to their direction"

the unity of muslims is very importand, because that is where the help of Allah lies. "wactasimuu bi xabli Allah walaa tafaraquu" "help of Allah is with the jamaaca"

"SUICIDE IS FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM AND TO SIT AROUND WHEN ISLAMIC LIVES ARE THREATENED, MASSACRED AND KILLED IS A SUICIDE"

it would have been suicide if the muslims disobeyed the prophet when he told them to wait until they established islam in their lives.

"A man who defends his house and gets killed in the house is called SHAHID, HOW ABOUT WHOLE people up for slaughter houses and their defence?"

there is also a verse in the Qur'an that says: "arduAllahi waasic" if muslims are being prosicuted and forced from worshipping from Allah and they are weak, they ought to flee. accidently, the prophet's time, he sent some of his followers to ethiopia. others move to madiina in order to be save. Allah said "ardulAllahu waasic" and "go where you can worship your Lord safly". if the prophet's sahaaba fought and died, they would be shadeeds, but it was better for them to wait the right time. anyway, why is it too hard for muslims to practice and follow Allah's diin and advice? the point of fighting back or fighting for religion is not to be shaheeds, but to make the religion of Allah the most high. but when muslims refuse to practice and die for lands and not for religion, then there is a problem.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 09:41 pm
"I have the option within islam to choose what is best for my interest if there are two opinions each having some legitimacy. Only the prophet of islam's word is inviolable. the rest are just human beings who have flaws as much as others do."

but this is not from any sheik. Allah told you to practice his religion first and formost and He will help you. the prophet also adviced his followers to practice islam first and establish islam in their lives, then fight.

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 10:05 pm
ASAD.

As for me I told you my position clear. Muslims can defend themselves. They can't flee. Because those who fled before them are in refugee camps with no country accepting. I am sure your proposal would bring smiles ON EHUD BARAK'S mouth. Believe me, there is nothing better than this suggestion of yours for his political career. I get your point now ASAD; Of the three categories JIHAD fell A- Not permitted. B- Permitted. C- Mandatory, you chose for those muslims THE FIRST ONE, TO FLEE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIGHT RIGHT?. And it is not permitted for them to fight their enemies?.

Asad, I will be back inshallah, I am running late on some tasks I needed to do. Hope to see you around. I benefitted from the discussion. And I know where you stand on issues of wars. wasalaam. You type fast. I am thinking "the tiger is waiting is for my next post lol". Okey, wassalaamu caleykum.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 10:17 pm
"As for me I told you my position clear. Muslims can defend themselves. They can't flee."

muslims did flee when the prophet was alive and he approved of it. the muslims also fled while running from other muslims (somalia).

"I am sure your proposal would bring smiles ON EHUD BARAK'S mouth. Believe me, there is nothing better than this suggestion of yours for his political career. I get your point now ASAD; Of the three categories JIHAD fell A- Not permitted. B- Permitted. C- Mandatory, you chose for those muslims THE FIRST ONE, TO FLEE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIGHT RIGHT?. And it is not permitted for them to fight their enemies?"

i wonder what category did prophet chose and suggested for his followers when they were weak in faith and when the enemy was procecuting them in their own homes?

"And I know where you stand on issues of wars."

my family ran from wars. i am glad that they ran for their lives. i would have done too. i hate to fight for a house and then die. i do not want to be a shaheed while fighting for my house, especailly if the house is not ruled by islam.

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formerguest.

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 10:33 pm
I happen to be in the area and thought may be I throw this last question before I call it a night.

WHAT IF KUFFAARS KEPT ON COMING TO ISLAMIC COUNTRIES FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC OF NO DEFENCE OR ANY OPPOSITION WHATSOEVER COMING FROM MUSLIMS?.

Remember , you propose running rather than fighting?.

Asad, try to learn the part of islam that teaches DEFENCE OF ISLAM AND MUSLIMS, AND THEIR BLOOD AND PROPERTY. Don't just take what suits your views, you gotta do some digging brother. And this time Wassalaamu caleykum. I hope you will have a good night. Did you laugh when I said EHUD BARAK?. I thought it was funny, but then I hope you didn't get pissed off my brother. I know you won't, looking at your mild manners. May ALLAH increase your knolwedge for you.

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asad

Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 10:46 pm
"WHAT IF KUFFAARS KEPT ON COMING TO ISLAMIC COUNTRIES FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC OF NO DEFENCE OR ANY OPPOSITION WHATSOEVER COMING FROM MUSLIMS?"

when you are told to first practice islam before declaring jihad and only fight for the riligion, that is does not mean no defence. ;-)

"Remember , you propose running rather than fighting?"

i did not propose. i said the prophet ordered his followers to run and practice islam and establish islam in their lives first. am i lying? ;-)

"Asad, try to learn the part of islam that teaches DEFENCE OF ISLAM AND MUSLIMS, AND THEIR BLOOD AND PROPERTY. Don't just take what suits your views, you gotta do some digging brother."


i would have ran from somalia too if some people tried to kill me for my property. i do not need to dig anything. i'll be happy to be not killed or killed a person for property. i will only fight for religion. arduAllahi waasic.

"I thought it was funny, but then I hope you didn't get pissed off my brother."

i didn't laugh nor get pissed off. but you did not answer my question. "i wonder what category did prophet chose and suggested for his followers when they were weak in faith and when the enemy was procecuting them in their own homes in mecca?

"I know you won't, looking at your mild manners."

i think you know me well. ;-)

"May ALLAH increase your knolwedge for you."

wa iyaakum.

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Anon

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 01:45 am
Asad

I used to enjoy our Debates, whit Mad-Mac and I used to Enjoyed it. But You Compeletly Lost me now, over this Issue about (Jihad)
I hope you read more about your Book!

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:03 am
Anon
Asad is a smart dude. I certainly have my hands full with him. I think I am beginning to understand what he's saying now, it's just taken a while to sink in. As near as I can tell, what is of paramount importance to Asad is service rendered to God and Mankind. Violence is destructive and seldom serves a positive purpose. Instead, people manipulate events for a purpose which is negative and use the image of Allah to do that. Asad appears to be saying that when one calls for Jihad in the military Sense, one must be very judicious and make sure you are not making the call for your own selfish purposes. Re-read him again. Try not to get lost in the details, but take the long view. He made me pick up my Qur'an last night and start re-reading it - I'm thinking maybe I missed something.

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formerguest.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:07 am
Old tricks never die ASAD. meaning, everytime I indicate the points that you need to address, you choose to talk about a villa you left in somalia. You could have fought with the thief or fled with yourlive which is the right thing to do in a case of tribal war between two muslim groups. What I am talking about is not Two somali muslim tribes and you know well but you like to use it as your cover, which I don't mind. Bro, May be I haven't been clarifying enough for you:


WHAT IS THE CONDITION MUSLIMS HAVE TO FULFILL IF THEY ARE ATTACKED BY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS?;

A- Do they flee as you say always?.

B- Do they defend themselves which you oppose?.

C- Do khalifa is required here so that muslims can be killed since there is no alternative as you argue?.

Jihad is one time self strive.
Jihad the other time is making the word of god supreme over all others.
jihad the third time is the defence of islam when attacked.

The last one is the one you need to address if you can.

May be BRO ASAD, you need to read history, particularly in the 7TH HIJRI CENTURY when TATARS(MONGOLS) Attacked the islamic KHALIFAH in BAGHDAD where they killed every body they could lay their hands on. They advanced to all parts of the islamic lands and regions untill they stoped at the door steps of EGYPT. In islamic history, this battle is known as the turning point of islam. It is called "CEYNU JALUT". Because in this battle some muslims stood up against the advance of those tatar troops, after so many years of massacre and pillaging done by the tatars, today we enjoy the islam we have. THOSE TATARS were on the offensive. But WHAT DID MUSLIMS DO AT THE TIME?. Did they flee?. Did they fight their advancing enemy who in many parts of the islamic lands caused so much destraction?. Muslims were weaker because all Iraq, syria, palestine,lebanon, jordan were reduced to nothing. Even some parts of egypt were destroyed. So, the little that was left stood infront of their enemy and decided if they didn't fight ISLAM WAS FINISHED. THEY RALLIED BEHIND THEIR LEADER AFTER THE LEADER WAS GIVEN FATWA TO FIGHT AND NOT TO SURENDER TO THE ENEMY. We need SCHOLARS LIKE THAT WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE WHEN MUSLIMS ARE CORNERED. Now, the easy way out was understandable to those muslims, but they chose to fight. They knew better having lived in the 7th hijri of islam, that the prophet once ordered his saxabah to flee, but they chose to fight. Were those muslims wrong ASAD who stood their ground and fought the MONGOLS(TATARS)?.

The Sword speaks louder than books,
Its sharp edge distinguishes gravity from child-play.

THAT IS WHAT THEY UNDERSTOOD REAL WELL THOSE MUSLIMS. They could have told themselves, since all other muslims were defeated, and the tatars demanded the surrender of the remainder of the muslim land, they should give in or flee, BUT THEY FOUGHT BACK.

That is the kind of action I strongly support. You call that dying for a piece of land, and I call it fighting in defence of islam. SEE the difference?, IT IS WHAT EVERYONE OF US WANTS TO SEE. I fight back ASAD, You flee simple as that. Now don't forget to quote your somali nephew who wanted to kill you and compare it to what I told you. It suits me as much.

Anybody interested in reading the historic battle can visit this link:

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/jaloot.htm

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formerguest.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:23 am
Anon.

Bro/sis.

Asad is one of the best people we have on the net who spends mor time defending islam than engaging in another fruitless debate. We all can have our differences of opinion here. He chooses one side WE CHOOSE THE OTHER. No one is wrong. Islam is a religion that is flexible within itself. Remember, there is a time when we can eat corpses to survive in islam?. I hope ASAD understands this issue very well and does much research on it. View points change always as one gains knowledge in islam, he makes progress in understanding what is clouded from him/her. I say, don't feel any ills towards him because, he has some legitimate argument for himself though I disagree.

MAD.

You will understand a lot as you go along. I know, you like the no fighting part, but that is an opinion. Don't raise your hopes high. the defence of islam is JIHAD TOO. you wouldn't accept AMERICA surrender to its enemy, YET YOU APPLUAD WHAT YOU MISCONSTRUE AS SUPPORTIVE CAUSE to your campaing of ANNIHILATION of muslims in somalinet. If you like muslims to be at the recieving end, THERE ARE MUSLIMS WHO SAY NO AND FIGHT BACK. I am proudly one them. Those muslims die charging rather than fleeing.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 06:40 am
"Bro, May be I haven't been clarifying enough for you: WHAT IS THE CONDITION MUSLIMS HAVE TO FULFILL IF THEY ARE ATTACKED BY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS?; A- Do they flee as you say always?"

i said what Allah wants and what the prophet and his followers did and how they suceeded. they practiced the religion and established islam in their lives. then, the help of Allah came. when the prophet and his sahaaba fled from mecca and other places and prepare themselves wrong move? you never want to answer this question!!!

"Do they defend themselves which you oppose?"

defence is not what i oppose. the best defence comes from within. Allah said He will help you when you help His religion.

"khalifa is required here so that muslims can be killed since there is no alternative as you argue?"

what is required is you to practice islam. no practice islam; no help. there is no other alternative for you but to practice islam 100%. Allah said enter islam whole-hardly. do you think the sahaaba disopeyed the prophet's orders?

"Jihad is one time self strive. Jihad the other time is making the word of god supreme over all others. jihad the third time is the defence of islam when attacked." "

the strive for one's diin. Allah said if you strive for His diin, He will help you. "waladiina jaahiduuna fiinaa lanah diyanahum subulanaa wa ina Laaha la macalil muxsiniin" Allah said make jihad for his diin by doing rightious, then He is with you and help you. He will help you when you make the diin supreme over all other things in your life. you can not defend islam if you do not have it in your life.

"May be BRO ASAD, you need to read history, particularly in the 7TH HIJRI CENTURY when TATARS(MONGOLS) Attacked the islamic KHALIFAH in BAGHDAD where they killed every body they could lay their hands on."

did you say they attacked the islamic khalifa? was not the islamic khalifa practicing islam?

"today we enjoy the islam we have"

yes, we enjoy islam by name big time and sleeping too; we are striving for it like the early muslims and we want victory? again, you have to strive and stop enjoying and sleeping. "waladiina jaahiduuna fiinaa lanah diyanahum subulanaa wa ina Laaha la macalil muxsiniin"


"We need SCHOLARS LIKE THAT WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE WHEN MUSLIMS ARE CORNERED."

you do not need scholars. you know what you have to do to get success, but you not working. you know what Allah wants and what His prophet and his successful followers did. strive, make jihad and establish islam in your life first and foremost. it is like a student who just want to enjoy being student, but never works and studies, but he want to pass.!!!

"Now, the easy way out was understandable to those muslims, but they chose to fight."

muslims at the time had no choice but to first be good muslims. as long as they practiced islam and establish khalifa (islamic law in their lands and in their lives which was never easy way), they fought. they fought because they knew the Allah's help is with them. when they left islam and stopped the practice and did some other things, the help of Allah was lifted and they lost their fights.

"The Sword speaks louder than books, Its sharp edge distinguishes gravity from child-play.THAT IS WHAT THEY UNDERSTOOD REAL WELL THOSE MUSLIMS. They could have told themselves, since all other muslims were defeated, and the tatars demanded the surrender of the remainder of the muslim land, they should give in or flee, BUT THEY FOUGHT BACK. "

if you think muslim's sword what won fights for the muslims, you are mistaken. the help of Allah is what made the muslims victorious. not their power, but their deeds. they understood that the real success lies in Allah's help and the following his prophet's examples. onces they became arrogant and felt their power made them success and since they lost faith, they sadly became history. read history, my friend.

"That is the kind of action I strongly support."

then tell me what happened to them and how they lost the fight?

"You call that dying for a piece of land, and I call it fighting in defence of islam."

the early muslims and the prophet did not fight to die for piece of land or defend the religion so they can die; they fought because they had faith and they had islamic laws in their lives.

"IT IS WHAT EVERYONE OF US WANTS TO SEE. I fight back ASAD, You flee simple as that"

then, why are you here and not fighting?

"Now don't forget to quote your somali nephew who wanted to kill you and compare it to what I told you. It suits me as much"

the difference between you and me is that i do not differenctiate the killing for somali muslim. and the killing for palestinian muslim. ;-)

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 07:00 am
"He chooses one side WE CHOOSE THE OTHER. No one is wrong."

there is only one choice for muslims. to choose another way is wrong. first thing first. islam in your life or else you are lost.

"I hope ASAD understands this issue very well and does much research on it."

i do understand and i did research. i showed you what one well known islamic scholar had to say.

"I say, don't feel any ills towards him because, he has some legitimate argument for himself though I disagree."

as long as my argument is legitimate, i do not care if one feels any ills towards me.

"I used to enjoy our Debates, whit Mad-Mac and I used to Enjoyed it. But You Compeletly Lost me now, over this Issue about (Jihad) I hope you read more about your Book"

did you read what sheikh albani said about this issue, Anon? if you did, let me know what you thought about it and if he compeltely lost you too as you say i did.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 07:03 am
And the difference between me and the rest of you is I don't differentiate between the killing of a Muslim and the killing of a Kufaar. All I see is an individual. I don't see Muslim or Christian or Jew, I just see a man.

Formerguest
You mistake my analysis of the situation with taking sides. I analyze dispationaltely, you can't do that. You identify with one side. I identify with none. You see my explanation of the Israeli position as support for the Israelis - this is not the case. You see me advocating Palestinian negotiation as turning the other cheek, when in fact I advocate making the most out of a bad situation. In short, I see things the way they are, you see them the way you would like them to be. If the Arabs resort to force, the Palestinians will lost the west bank completely, they'll be driven from the region, they'll never get back in. the Israelis will justify it with security concerns, security concerns which are given credence by radical violence. My solution, negotiation, is the solution which gives the Palestinians the optimal result. Your solution, resorting to violence, gives the Palestinians the worst result.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 07:21 am
"And the difference between me and the rest of you is I don't differentiate between the killing of a Muslim and the killing of a Kufaar. All I see is an individual. I don't see Muslim or Christian or Jew, I just see a man" "

however, mad mac, do you differentiate between the killing say of an american and the killing of a russian if there were a war between russia and america?

as for me, somali muslim killed by another somali muslim is no less important than palestinian muslim killed by an israeli---as some of my somali muslims on here seem to think so.

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formerguest.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 10:49 am
One final discourse before you have it your way ASAD.

Albani agrees with all the other scholars on:

Jihad= one's struggle to stay pious and god fearing.

Jihad= To make the word of god supreme over all others.

Jihad= the defence of islam. This is what he differs from other scholars and that is what I don't take from him. I tell you, it doesn't mean ALBANI disagreed with other scholars, I have to take his side of the mas'ala I have other scholars who as well have credence before ALBANI and WITH ALBANI'S TIME. So, I say do some research without finalizing and imposing on people what is your choice. We do have a different choice. What the prophet said about the defence of islam is more important than what ALBANI thought was the right choice. The prophet told us peace be upon him that someone can die defending his rights whatever that is. Be it property, his life etc. Also the prophet pbuh mandated on us that we should help THE OPPRESSED. That is what counts. Remember, I told you earlier, no one is oblidged to follow a scholar's view if the scholar has other opinoins attached to his that have more reference than he does. ALBANI may ALLAH forgive him, couldn't say no to muslims defending themselves if they are on the attack. He gave his opinion as to what they would do. Also islam gives them other options it is all there ASAD. One can take it or leave it. It is all religion.

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Muslimah

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 11:35 am
Asad
If I go the Fighting of Somaliya, in Order to support one Tribe....then I die the sAke of Tribe...while I am killing another Tribe which happen to be a muslim, will I be a Shahiid? please tray to xplain to me.

How about if I go to Phalestine and Fight for the Sake of Islam.....Traying to save the Holy Muslim Land from a Kafir and free those Mulims who have been strungling for so long.....and the only reason they strungling is not any Crime they Commited it is becouse simply, they are Muslims.....do you stil thing I have no point to
be there?

I find hard to understand how came it is a same...Muslim killing Muslim..and Kafir Killing Muslim! I am not saying it is ok Muslims killink Muslims....but what I am traying to say. if I support Muslim killing Muslim......That does make me Non-mulim...the only support I can give them, is to Stop Fighting if I have any Power and Pray for them.

On the other hand, I can Support Muslims who have bee killing by Kafirs......I can go there and Die of that cause to Protect my Muslmm brothers.....Although i am not sure I haerd a Hathis.saying that if Enemy traied to take a way from your Rights,Land, Homes,etc.and u run a way from them then u are not Muslim any more...die for your Rights Allah will help u.

Peace

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 11:52 am
"Albani agrees with all the other scholars on:
Jihad= one's struggle to stay pious and god fearing. Jihad= To make the word of god supreme over all others."

i do not care who albani agrees with or who he disagree with. this is what he said:


he said: "But, unfortunately I wish to say that this jihad which is fard - rather fard ayn - is not possible to be established by individuals as occurs in the question, rather not even by some of the Islamic groups. Because the likes of this jihad, especially in our times in which the means of fighting have become many, is not possible to be established by the Islamic groups not to speak of individuals!"


"But the obligation is upon the countries, and those Islamic countries that have the strength to prepare for war, and the means of modern day warfare, by which if they gathered together sincerely for this jihad they would establish the fard ayn. But, very unfortunately, these countries have not moved a limb to establish this. So maybe they refer the matter of this jihad to the various Islamic groups and sects, while these are not capable of doing anything to stop the advance/attack of the kuffaar. And the current affairs bear witness to the fact that any Islamic group that tries, either to fight the aggressor as occurred in Afghanistan for example, or by revolting against the ruler whose kufr has become clear, like in Algeria for example - then these unfortunate occurrences indicate that the individual jihad or group jihad does not produce the expected fruit, and that is that the Word of Allaah be made supreme."


"So therefore, we believe that this Jihad is not possible except under an Islamic authority firstly, and under an Islamic group comprising of people from different lands, not just one land or one region. And add to this the necessity that taqwa of Allaah be present, by staying away from what Allaah has prohibited from the matters that are well known amongst the muslims, but unfortunately they are very far from putting into practice."


"And we have mentioned - and I am trying to summarise my words as much as possible - many times that what has befallen the muslims today, this humiliation and abasement/ignominy that has not been known in the history of Islaam at all, is that the muslims have misapplied, at the very least, one verse of the Quraan....and that is the saying of Allaah, "if you help Allaah, Allaah will Help you."

"And there is no doubt that this Help of the muslims from Allaah, is Help in making the Laws of the Shariah an observable reality, and this unfortunately is not realised in the majority of the Islamic lands, or in the muslim individuals."


"And those amongst the muslim lands that do have some remnants of ruling by the Law of Allaah have not, uptil now proclaimed the call to Jihaad. And due to this the muslim individuals and nations will remain weak as long as none of the Islamic lands lift the flag of Jihad, and that Jihad which calls for fighting those nearest them, not those that are far far away."

"The muslim lands do not rule by what Allaah revealed, and if there is one amongst them that does (claim to) rule by what Allaah revealed, then the first clear indication that it does not rule by what Allaah revealed is that it does not raise the call for Jihad. So if this time is not the time in which Jihad in the Way of Allaah does not become obligatory, and many of the muslims lands have been occupied, then when will this Jihad become obligatory? But the problem - and this is the heart of the matter - is that there is no one amongst us who is capable of undertaking (this jihad), why?.....Because we are drowning in sins, and drowning in sectarian differences and national differences, and we know that one of the doorways to weakness and defeat is that the muslims differ amongst themselves."....."And Allaah says in the Noble Quran, "indeed Allaah will not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves."

"Jihad= the defence of islam"

Allah said if you strive (do jihad) and establish his diin in your life, we will guide you and Allah is with the muxsiniin (the rightious). Allah will help, protect you, and defend you if you follow his diin and be muxsiniin. jihad is not only war.

"What the prophet said about the defence of islam is more important than what ALBANI thought was the right choice. The prophet told us peace be upon him that someone can die defending his rights whatever that is."

what about what the prophet said to the sahaaba in mecca (when they were weak; when they lacked faith and when there was no islamic laws in their lives). he said to them to wait until the right time comes, didn't. albani agrees with the prophet and you are not.

"ALBANI may ALLAH forgive him, couldn't say no to muslims defending themselves if they are on the attack"

albani didn't need to say that, becuase he did not tell you that you can not defend yourself. i didn't tell you that you can not defend yourself. in fact, i told you that you can defend me if i'm wrong if you want to. albani told you to first proclaim islamic laws in your life first before you proclaim jihad. this is the best way to go and this was the best way the prophet and his followers did. you can claim jihad fii sabiiliAllah every time some gaal fights you or every time some somali person fights you. ;-)

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 11:57 am
"Albani agrees with all the other scholars on:
Jihad= one's struggle to stay pious and god fearing. Jihad= To make the word of god supreme over all others."

i do not care who albani agrees with or who he disagree with. this is what he said:


he said: "But, unfortunately I wish to say that this jihad which is fard - rather fard ayn - is not possible to be established by individuals as occurs in the question, rather not even by some of the Islamic groups. Because the likes of this jihad, especially in our times in which the means of fighting have become many, is not possible to be established by the Islamic groups not to speak of individuals!"


"But the obligation is upon the countries, and those Islamic countries that have the strength to prepare for war, and the means of modern day warfare, by which if they gathered together sincerely for this jihad they would establish the fard ayn. But, very unfortunately, these countries have not moved a limb to establish this. So maybe they refer the matter of this jihad to the various Islamic groups and sects, while these are not capable of doing anything to stop the advance/attack of the kuffaar. And the current affairs bear witness to the fact that any Islamic group that tries, either to fight the aggressor as occurred in Afghanistan for example, or by revolting against the ruler whose kufr has become clear, like in Algeria for example - then these unfortunate occurrences indicate that the individual jihad or group jihad does not produce the expected fruit, and that is that the Word of Allaah be made supreme."


"So therefore, we believe that this Jihad is not possible except under an Islamic authority firstly, and under an Islamic group comprising of people from different lands, not just one land or one region. And add to this the necessity that taqwa of Allaah be present, by staying away from what Allaah has prohibited from the matters that are well known amongst the muslims, but unfortunately they are very far from putting into practice."


"And we have mentioned - and I am trying to summarise my words as much as possible - many times that what has befallen the muslims today, this humiliation and abasement/ignominy that has not been known in the history of Islaam at all, is that the muslims have misapplied, at the very least, one verse of the Quraan....and that is the saying of Allaah, "if you help Allaah, Allaah will Help you."

"And there is no doubt that this Help of the muslims from Allaah, is Help in making the Laws of the Shariah an observable reality, and this unfortunately is not realised in the majority of the Islamic lands, or in the muslim individuals."


"And those amongst the muslim lands that do have some remnants of ruling by the Law of Allaah have not, uptil now proclaimed the call to Jihaad. And due to this the muslim individuals and nations will remain weak as long as none of the Islamic lands lift the flag of Jihad, and that Jihad which calls for fighting those nearest them, not those that are far far away."

"The muslim lands do not rule by what Allaah revealed, and if there is one amongst them that does (claim to) rule by what Allaah revealed, then the first clear indication that it does not rule by what Allaah revealed is that it does not raise the call for Jihad. So if this time is not the time in which Jihad in the Way of Allaah does not become obligatory, and many of the muslims lands have been occupied, then when will this Jihad become obligatory? But the problem - and this is the heart of the matter - is that there is no one amongst us who is capable of undertaking (this jihad), why?.....Because we are drowning in sins, and drowning in sectarian differences and national differences, and we know that one of the doorways to weakness and defeat is that the muslims differ amongst themselves."....."And Allaah says in the Noble Quran, "indeed Allaah will not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves."

"Jihad= the defence of islam"

Allah said if you strive (do jihad) and establish his diin in your life, He will guide you and Allah is with the muxsiniin (the rightious). Allah will help, protect you, and defend you if you follow his diin and be muxsiniin. jihad is not only war.

"What the prophet said about the defence of islam is more important than what ALBANI thought was the right choice. The prophet told us peace be upon him that someone can die defending his rights whatever that is."

what about what the prophet said to the sahaaba in mecca (when they were weak; when they lacked faith and when there was no islamic laws in their lives). he said to them to wait until the right time comes, didn't he? albani agrees with the prophet and you are not.

"ALBANI may ALLAH forgive him, couldn't say no to muslims defending themselves if they are on the attack"

albani didn't need to say that, becuase he did not tell you that you can not defend yourself and fight. i didn't tell you that you can not defend yourself and fight. in fact, i told you that you can fight and defend me if i'm being wronged if you want to. albani told you to first proclaim islamic laws in your life first before you proclaim jihad. this is the best way to go and this was the best way the prophet and his followers did. you can NOT claim jihad fii sabiiliAllah every time some gaal fights you or every time some somali person fights you. ;-)

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:10 pm
the other day, a friend of mine who was visiting me saw what i was writing on here. that is when we were discussing about the boxing and muslims who box for living. i think i mentioned something like---if a muslim fights and defends his title, that does not mean he is promoting islam. in fact, i think i said if some boxer thinks he is doing this for islam, he is doing dis-service to the religion. then, my friend said whenever the boxer naseem hamid is fighting against another boxer who happens to be a christian, he prayers for Allah that hamdi wins the fight. he thinks if hamad does not defend his title successfully, it will hurt islam. ;-). i told him he is cheapining the religion. now, just because i'm defending myself and fighting against a kufar who wronged me does not mean that i'm in jihad. what if i'm being wronged by another somali muslim and then i defend myself, would i be doing jihad too? ;-)

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Muslimah

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:23 pm
Asad

"just because i'm defending myself and fighting against a kufar who wronged me does not mean that i'm in jihad. what if i'm being wronged by another somali muslim and then i defend myself, would i be doing jihad too? ;-)"

Asad
Allah (swt) said to you, don,t do any wrong to the othrs....but if they Wronged you fight for your Rights....right? That is what Phalestians doing fithing for their rights.....please stop obsses whit Somaliya.....no one take from their Land they destroy each other....whit their arogance and ignorence.....there was no one kiiling somals becouse they were Muslims.....but Phaletine daying because they are Muslims


Muslim......stop being Nationalism cuz that can blinded you from Islam....You are Muslim then Somali right?

Peace

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:39 pm
"If I go the Fighting of Somaliya, in Order to support one Tribe....then I die the sAke of Tribe...while I am killing another Tribe which happen to be a muslim, will I be a Shahiid? please tray to xplain to me."

no, you would not be shahiid.

"How about if I go to Phalestine and Fight for the Sake of Islam Traying to save the Holy Muslim Land from a Kafir and free those Mulims who have been strungling for so long.....and the only reason they strungling is not any Crime they Commited it is becouse simply, they are Muslims.....do you stil thing I have no point to be there?"

you can be there to fight and claim you fought for islam, if you go to palestine, you are going there to establish an islamic system and fight under an islamic flag or not? jihad for islam requires that you have to have islamic law in your life first. do you have islamic laws in your life, muslimah? if you do not and if your intention is not to establish islam in there, then are you die, are you shahiid?


"I find hard to understand how came it is a same...Muslim killing Muslim..and Kafir Killing Muslim!"

actually, to me, muslim killing muslim is worst.

"if I support Muslim killing Muslim......That does make me Non-mulim...the only support I can give them, is to Stop Fighting if I have any Power and Pray for them."

you are allowed to support one against the other if you know one is wrong one. but if you do not have power to stop muslims fighting against muslims, how can you have power to stop kufar fighting against muslims?

"On the other hand, I can Support Muslims who have bee killing by Kafirs......I can go there and Die of that cause to Protect my Muslmm brothers"

you can protect your muslim brothers against other muslim brothers too and die. there is no difference muslims killing muslims and kufars killing muslims, dear sister.


"Although i am not sure I haerd a Hathis.saying that if Enemy traied to take a way from your Rights,Land, Homes,etc.and u run a way from them then u are not Muslim any more"

i've never heard this hadeeth before. but i know that muslim have ran away from kufars, even when the prophet was alive and none of them became non-muslims. also, there is no difference if i run away from muslim killer who wants to rob me and if i run away from kufar killer who wants to rob me.


"die for your Rights Allah will help u."

Allah loves to help those who practiced the religion while they are alive and do rightious deeds and He even loves more those who keep the rights and duties of the religion of Allah.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:50 pm
"Allah (swt) said to you, don,t do any wrong to the othrs....but if they Wronged you fight for your Rights....right?"

yes, it is good to fight for your rights, but what if i'm not keeping up the rights on me (the religious duties)? if i do not keep up the rights on me, i'm doing wrong, don't i?

"That is what Phalestians doing fithing for their rights"

there is nothing wrong fighting for your rights, but if you are not keeping up your religious rights, help will not come.

"please stop obsses whit Somaliya"

what is wrong talking about somalia? they are muslims, like the palestinian muslims, right? if i'm oppossessed with somaliya, you are obsesses with palestine.

"no one take from their Land they destroy each other...whit their arogance and ignorence..there was no one kiiling somals becouse they were Muslims"

"but Phaletine daying because they are Muslims"

somalis are dying too and they are muslims. somali blood is no less important than palestinian blood, right?

"Muslim......stop being Nationalism cuz that can blinded you from Islam....You are Muslim then Somali right?"

i'm a muslim more than somali and palestini. i'm not nationalist, but you seem to be forgetting yourself.


that is why i think it is worst.

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anonymous.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:56 pm
asad, if people fought for their right they are following the prophet. you can't make that a mistake as it appears in your discussions. Learn the religion very well as you were told before.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 01:22 pm
"asad, if people fought for their right they are following the prophet. you can't make that a mistake as it appears in your discussions. Learn the religion very well as you were told before."

anonymous, let me inform you that the prophet himself said to the sahaaba in mecca (when they were weak; when they lacked faith and when there was no islamic laws in their lives; when they were being prosecuted). he said to them to wait until the right time comes, didn't he? didn't the followers of the prophet follow the prophet's advice? what would have happened to them if they didn't follow his advice? can you answer that for me, anonymous? what you do not understand is that you can fight for your rights, but if you can not even keep up the rights and the duties of religion, how can you do anything? learn the religion very well as you were told before by Allah and His prophet, anonymous. Allah will not change the condition, if you do not change yourself. He will help you fight and win, if you practice. can't you guys understand this?

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Alyisa

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 01:51 pm
Asad

"He will help you fight and win, if you practice.
can't you guys understand this?"

No one is disagreeing with you on this, what are u stressing about?

"one somali muslim blood is more important than jerusalem and mecca put together."

Tell that to the thousands of Shaheeds that gave up their lives so that devoted muslims might be able to go to Hajj or pray in Al-Aqsa.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:09 pm
(one somali muslim blood is more important than jerusalem and mecca put together)

"Tell that to the thousands of Shaheeds that gave up their lives so that devoted muslims might be able to go to Hajj or pray in Al-Aqsa."

are you saying the blood of a muslim is less importand than the kacba and al-aqsa?

fyi, early muslims fought for Allah, not for the kacba and al-aqsa. saving lives from the hell fire is more importand than places of worship. thousands (no millions) of shaheeds gave up their lives for Allah while fighting in many other places in the world (besides the kacba and al-aqsa) but does that mean the devoted muslims might be able to go these places and worship these places too. Allah is the One muslims worship (not the kacba and al-aqsa). learn your religion and ask your imaam which one is more important-----a muslim life or the kacba, alyisa?

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formerguest.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:32 pm
Bro, ASAD.

You have a point right there in saying muslims need to get their acts together first. What you don't understand from our side is, having said that, can we defend islam and muslims?. Can we follow the ayat and ahadith that propose the defence of the muslim and islam?. Muslims fail if they are not inline with the teachings of allah no question about it. Yet, islam proposes to them their defence and fighting for their rights. You gotta have a plan if your enemy is bent on your destruction. Fleeing is not an option because muslims are not all void of good people unless you say so. You remember from the Quran that Allah checks one group of people with another group while allah IS ABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO do THE JOB HIMSELF.

"fOR had it not been that ALLAH checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the name of ALLAH is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down" 22:40

If muslims can't provide protection for their religious simbols as well as those who come under their protection from people who want to destroy them, I think ISLAM WOULD PUT PEOPLE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION. We must have a solution for proplems in islam and one of them is defence. And if we seek ALLAH'S GUIDANCE and decide to fight WE CAN. But if we fail our duties as defenders of the faith, I guess, we add our misery to the existing ones. Keep running forever doesn't bring about solution. It is like proposing to wait while you have a cancer spreading through your body untill it kills you for good. Evil is like cancer and it must be kept at a distance of no harm.


Muslims brought about their demise for fact. As the Prophet (saw) has said in sahih hadith_: "the first of this Ummah was reformed with abstinence and certainty of belief, and the last of this Ummah will be destroyed by miserliness and longing." Narrated by Ahmad and Tabarani in Al Awsat and Al Baihaqi. But then, when they face proplems, it is not a solution to just make them more secure for defeat and defeat forever. That is the proposal of running forever and not fighting. Is our fate like this ASAD JUST TO BE KILLED WHEREVER WE ARE FOUND?. CAN OUR DIGNITY AS ISLAMIC PEOPLE BE FOUND IN COWARDICE AND NOT POINTING A SIGLE FINGER TO OUR AVOWED ENEMIES?.

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anonymous.

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 02:44 pm
disbeleivers understand what defence means better than asad. asad when your enemies attack, you pray we fight, a job well done for both of us. when did islam teach people to sit and get killed by their kuffaar enemies. You gave me the wrong impression.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 03:04 pm
"You have a point right there in saying muslims need to get their acts together first. What you don't understand from our side is, having said that, can we defend islam and muslims? Can we follow the ayat and ahadith that propose the defence of the muslim and islam?."

how many tiiiiiimes do i have to tell you that you can defend me, formerguest? you can even defend a non-muslim from a muslim, do you know that? ;-)

"Muslims fail if they are not inline with the teachings of allah no question about it. Yet, islam proposes to them their defence and fighting for their rights."

but which one is better time for us to defend and fight for Allah and for our rights----when you are inline with the teachings of Allah or when you are not?


"You gotta have a plan if your enemy is bent on your destruction."

the plan is what i've been talking about, formerguest? ! practice and obey Allah and His prophet. if you do not follow this plan, you will loose.

"Fleeing is not an option because muslims are not all void of good people unless you say so"

where are the good people that will plan and protect the muslims? are they living an islamic laws themselves? you do not have to flee, you will be run over and killed. muslims are now fleeing from their own countries than ever. we ran from our own muslim brothers, right? ;-)

"You remember from the Quran that Allah checks one group of people with another group while allah IS ABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO do THE JOB HIMSELF"

this is a great example that we can apply in our lives. do you think if the good people in somalia had islamic laws in their lives, checked the bad people who chased muslims from their homes in somalia there would be fleeing going on? ;-)

"If muslims can't provide protection for their religious simbols as well as those who come under their protection from people who want to destroy them, I think ISLAM WOULD PUT PEOPLE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION."

the more important protection is the muslim lives more than religious simbols. for example, if a person is buring the book of the Qur'an and if he is burning a muslim person, which one will you protect from burning first?

"And if we seek ALLAH'S GUIDANCE and decide to fight WE CAN. But if we fail our duties as defenders of the faith, I guess, we add our misery to the existing ones"

we already failed to uphold our duties and responsibities to practice the diin. then, the misery came later. if we would have upheld our duties and responsiblities to practice the diin, help would come later.

"Keep running forever doesn't bring about solution."

if you keep running from the duties and the responsiblity to practice the diin, then you will be run over. the solution is the practice of islam in our lives.

"It is like proposing to wait while you have a cancer spreading through your body untill it kills you for good. Evil is like cancer and it must be kept at a distance of no harm."

the cancer is not the problem; what caused it is the problem. the symptoms.

"Muslims brought about their demise for fact. As the Prophet (saw) has said in sahih hadith_: "the first of this Ummah was reformed with abstinence and certainty of belief, and the last of this Ummah will be destroyed by miserliness and longing." Narrated by Ahmad and Tabarani in Al Awsat and Al Baihaqi. But then, when they face proplems, it is not a solution to just make them more secure for defeat and defeat forever."

defeat will continue as long as we do not practice and implement islamic laws in our lives.

"That is the proposal of running forever and not fighting"

if you run forever from the duties and the responsiblity to practice, you will loose the fight.


"Is our fate like this ASAD JUST TO BE KILLED WHEREVER WE ARE FOUND?"

no, it is the lack of fate which is the problem.


"CAN OUR DIGNITY AS ISLAMIC PEOPLE BE FOUND IN COWARDICE AND NOT POINTING A SIGLE FINGER TO OUR AVOWED ENEMIES?"

muslim's dignity lies in the practice of the religion. if the muslim are afraid or refuse to practice the diin, then you will not get help from Allah.

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 03:11 pm
"disbeleivers understand what defence means better than asad."

disbelievers do not understand what Allah is telling them.

"asad when your enemies attack, you pray we fight, a job well done for both of us."

?!


"when did islam teach people to sit and get killed by their kuffaar enemies. You gave me the wrong impression"

no, i did not give you wrong impression. i told you what Allah said in the Qur'an. if you practice His diin, He will help you. if you do not, then you are a wrong-doer. thus, you will not get help. He will help you fight and win wars, if you only practice his religion. can't you guys understand this? ;-)

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Alyisa

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 04:20 pm
"are you saying the blood of a muslim is less importand than the kacba and al-aqsa?"

I'm saying the Kacba and Al-Aqsa mosque are well worth the lives of thousands of muslims. Any muslim who dies defending them will die a shaheed.


"...does that mean the devoted muslims might be able to go these places and worship these places too?"

What other place on earth does Allah order us to pray towards?

"Allah is the One muslims worship (not the kacba and al-aqsa)."

Yet Al-Aqsa is where muslims prayed towards untill Allah told them to pray toward the Kacba. I shouldn't have to tell you the importance of the Kacba in Islam, if you don't know refer to the 5 pilars of Islam.

"learn your religion and ask your imaam which one is more important-----a muslim life or the kacba"

I would advise you to do the same. "'do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself?!!!' "

"He(Allah) will help you fight and win wars, if you only practice his religion. can't you guys understand this?"

Like I said no one disagrees with you on this so what are u stressing about?

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asad

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 05:23 pm
"I'm saying the Kacba and Al-Aqsa mosque are well worth the lives of thousands of muslims. Any muslim who dies defending them will die a shaheed."

if there is a jihad, say, in america, muslims who will die will be shaheeds too, right?

"What other place on earth does Allah order us to pray towards?

i'm saying more muslims died fighiting jahad in many other places other than mecca and jurisalem. mecca and jurisalem are not the only places you can fight jihad. somalia could be a place where jihad can take place, right? ;-)

"I shouldn't have to tell you the importance of the Kacba in Islam, if you don't know refer to the 5 pilars of Islam"

what is more sacred than the kacba is the muslim lives, agree or not agree?

"I would advise you to do the same"

i already know that a muslim life is more sacred than any place in this world. do you know? if you do not know, ask your imaam, okay?

""'do you enjoin rightousness and forget yourself?!!!' "

i thought you were the one proclaiming jihad in jurisalem and on you life (jihadul nafs)!

"Like I said no one disagrees with you on this so what are u stressing about?"

ask the anonymous person if he or she disagrees or not. ;-)

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 09, 2000 - 09:31 pm
Not to change the subject here, but FYI, Barrera and Hamed signed to fight, probably in Jan-Feb time frame. Should be a good bout. Barrera is a pressure fighter of the type never before faced by Hamed. However, he was stopped once before by Junior Jones and Hamed hits harder than Jones. On the other hand Hamed has a porous defense. Should be a good bout.

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formerguest.

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 12:52 am
Asad, try to read books of fiqh in this subject, under JIHAD, you will see jihad will be of two types. A- Offensive JIHAD. B- Defensive JIHAD. the last one is the one you will find the solution of this argument. May be we can come to an understanding each other. The conditions, all that is required are found under that particular chapter of defensive type of JIHAD. See it for yourself. It is a lot easier. I am sure you will find defence of the lands of muslims if they come under attack will BE FARDH CEYN. Scholars even say, the closer people are to the conflict, the more responsibilites they have. I see you have a an excuse here while egyptians are more responsible than you do. Untill of course everything gets out of hand and all muslims are required to quell the aggression. I see, you are in need to find out about this particular subject bro.


I appreciate if we all go back to the KITAB AND SUNNAH and find ABOUT THE DEFENSIVE TYPE OF JIHAD. What do you say?. You will see the conditions that you need to fulfill, whether it is fleeing, defending and dying or for that matter surrendering to an enemy. Find it out for yourself. I appreciated your contribution on the subject. I know I agree with you on a lot of things and disagree with you on DEFENSIVE TYPE OF JIHAD. May be we are all saying the same. It is my fault that I misunderstand I guess. All in all, I wanted to recommend to you to go to the islamic library close to you and check out this subject in full. May be you are right and have better dalil that we don't.

"where are the good people that will plan and protect the muslims? are they living an islamic laws themselves? you do not have to flee, you will
be run over and killed." It is not important if you have a god fearing ruler or not ASAD which we don't in any islamic country today. The importance is, can you defend?. Yes you can:

To defend oneself, he/she doesn't need to be a state of perfection. In a sahih hadith: “whoever is killed protecting his wealth, he is a martyr. Whoever is killed protecting his blood, he is a martyr. Whoever is killed protecting his family, he is a martyr. Hadith sahih narated by Ahmed, Abu Daud, Trimidhi and Nisa'i.

If the prophet of islam doesn't put condition on someone capable of defending himself, Then who can?.

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Anonmous

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 05:57 am
Asad
your agruments is a sake of agruments, when it cames to (Jihad) if you don,t have enough Knowlage please tray to Learn more about that Isue.Becareful don,t preach some thing which is your point of Views....Islam is writen Rules therefore you have to make sure you preach those Rules...not what you think..it is Haram br.

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asad

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 06:22 am
"I appreciate if we all go back to the KITAB AND SUNNAH and find ABOUT THE DEFENSIVE TYPE OF JIHAD."


are you ready for jihad, formerguest? why aren't you going to palestine to defend islam? if i don't have islamic rules, how can i defend it? again, i do not think albani and many scholars are deviating from the Qur'an and sunnah when they talk about jihad. In fact, Allah wants you to fight and defend His religion when you yourself practice it in your life and the prophet and his followers showed the way. if you do not follow what Allah wants and what the prophet showed, you will loose.

"It is not important if you have a god fearing ruler or not ASAD which we don't in any islamic country today. The importance is, can you defend? Yes you can. To defend oneself, he/she doesn't need to be a state of perfection."

how many many many many times do i have to tell you you can defend me or yourself, formerguest? ;-). you could defend when somalis were getting victimized by other somalis. was the prophet wrong when he told his followers the right time to fight and the wrong time to fight and defend?

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asad

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 06:28 am
"your agruments is a sake of agruments, when it cames to (Jihad) if you don,t have enough Knowlage please tray to Learn more about that Isue."

when albani was making his fatwa on jihad, i do not think he was making arguments. please, try to read it again and let me know what you think of it, okay?

"Becareful don,t preach some thing which is your point of Views"

i told you what Allah wants from us; i told you what the prophet and his followers did and how they got success. i follow what the prophet and the learned preached.


"Islam is writen Rules therefore you have to make sure you preach those Rules...not what you think..it is Haram br"

i do not think sheikh albani was preaching haraam. again, anonymous, read what he said and learn.

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asad

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 06:32 am
"Not to change the subject here, but FYI, Barrera and Hamed signed to fight, probably in Jan-Feb time frame"

mad mac, if i were a betting man (which i'm not) i would bet on hamad. but unlike my friend, i'm not going to pray for him. ;-)

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MAD MAC

Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 06:06 am
Asad
If I were a betting man, which I am, I would not bet on this fight. It's a pick 'em fight in my mind. This is a level of competition that Hamed has not yet faced. He will be hard pressed. Barrera has a good chin, outstanding skills and is a very determined guy. I give the edge in speed and power to Hamed. I give the edge in boxing skills and determination to Barrera. If the fight goes the distance I think Barrera gets the win - unless he ends up on his ass a couple of times along the way. Hamed can (and often has) been knocked down. But Kevin Kelly hits harder than Barrera and Kelly wasn't able to stop him. So if Barrera does it, it will likely be through an accumulation of blows vice one shot. Hamed though, can put you down with one shot. He's got Thors Hammer in both fists. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

As for the rest of you.

You know what troubles me about this whole thing, it's this air of superiority in your conversation. This notion that because you are Musim you are better than other people. And other Muslims are better than other non-Muslims. No one has come right out and said that, but it permeates a lot of what I read here. It is easy to see how in a country like Nigeria, this kind of attitude could lead to conflict. Curiously though, I never experienced it when I was actually in Somalia. Anyone here care to comment on that? Am I reading too much into the conversation?

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asad

Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 08:44 am
"But Kevin Kelly hits harder than Barrera and Kelly wasn't able to stop him."

kevin kelly was too old to fight and he went to the distance with barrera. i think kevin is in his late 30's. he just came back from retirment to fight for the money and after the fight was over he went back to retirment.! if you saw that fight when kevin kelly was interviewed, he said barrera has no chance if he fights against hamad and forman agreed with kevin. i think the fight will end up like hamad's last fight. i just hope that barrera will not be taken to the hospital.

"You know what troubles me about this whole thing, it's this air of superiority in your conversation. This notion that because you are Musim you are better than other people. And other Muslims are better than other non-Muslims. No one has come right out and said that, but it permeates a lot of what I read here."

no one has come right out and said what muslims are better than other people . at least i have been saying a muslim life from somalia is no less important than a muslim life in palestine. the americans who are in the military (in whatever religion they belong) think american life is more importand and that they are superior. certianly, the israelis value their lives and think their blood is more important than the palestinian muslims. in my belief, we are taught that, in the site of Allah, the best people are those who have taqwa and practice the religion of Allah (ISLAM).

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MAD MAC

Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 09:16 am
Asad
It's always dangerous to compare common oponents. Example, Muhamed Ali fought and lost to Frazier and Norton before he fought Foreman. Foreman had taken both Frazier and Norton apart in couple of rounds, totally dominated them. Everyone thought Ali was going to get crushed!!! But Ali won that fight. Styles make fights. Barrera has a style that Hamed will find troubling. You are correct about Kelley, he is well past his prime, and was when he fought Hamed. Don't bet any hard cold cash on this one. Like I said it's a pick 'em fight.

From a nationalistic point of view, you are right. My job is to place American life at a priority. But I don't believe Americans are superior (although many of my countrymen would doubtless disagree). I believe culturally we have strengths and weaknesses. But what I'm really talking about is I get the feeling that Muslims think Muslims are better people than everyone else. As if by being Muslims they have occupied a higher rung on the hierarchical ladder. When they live in a country which has political leadership which is non-Islamic, how do they deal with this, taking direction from someone they consider inferior. Or am I mis-interpreting this somehow?

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asad

Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 10:07 am
"It's always dangerous to compare common oponents"

that is what we are all doing, including you and the boxing experts (comparing), but we never know what is going to happen.


"Barrera has a style that Hamed will find troubling."

but kelly who fought both of them and the most boxing experts think it is the other way around.

"From a nationalistic point of view, you are right. My job is to place American life at a priority."

from religious point of view, you are right. muslims are placing and should place muslim life at a priority. there is nothing wrong with that. you employ nationalistic point of view and the muslim employs religious point of view. the muslim thinks you are wrong and you think he is wrong. to each his own.

"But I don't believe Americans are superior (although many of my countrymen would doubtless disagree). I believe culturally we have strengths and weaknesses. "

i do not believe somalis are superior either. we have our strengths and weaknesses. however, some somalis think differently, though. some think somali life is superior to any muslim and others think somali life is less than palestinian land or palestinian life.

"But what I'm really talking about is I get the feeling that Muslims think Muslims are better people than everyone else."

the jews and the christians feel the same excessively about their people. they think they are better people than everyone else.

"As if by being Muslims they have occupied a higher rung on the hierarchical ladder."

not being a muslim, but being righteous muslim. Allah said "ina-akrama cidna Allahi adqaakum" you have to follow islam and practice to be righteous. if you call yourself a muslim, but you are not righteous, you are no better than anyone else. it will be only lip service and false pride.

"When they live in a country which has political leadership which is non-Islamic, how do they deal with this, taking direction from someone they consider inferior. Or am I mis-interpreting this somehow?"

so called muslim countries, which have political leadership, are non-islamic too. they take direction from someone who has no taqwa (inferior in the site of Allah). there is no difference.

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true

Friday, October 13, 2000 - 08:43 am
Israel rules!!!phuck the arabs and their phucked up religion.

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wadani

Friday, October 13, 2000 - 11:44 am
man,,,mybe iam stupid, but i didn't read all these long masseges you wrote over here, and i don't usualy discuss matters on religion. but, i just wanna let you know that we somalians have nothing to do with ARABS, phuck the relgion they can have back if they want to.

and no somali is ever a torrorst. we face it like real man, or leave it like it supposed to.
what is this hit run bullshit. phucking caword arabs. am happy to see isreal kicking ass.

i think isreal should take over the whole ARABIA, it would have been much better.

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asad

Friday, October 13, 2000 - 12:31 pm
"and no somali is ever a torrorst."

wadani, didn't somalis terrorize their own kind?

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Side-Watcher

Friday, October 13, 2000 - 02:44 pm
the socalled WADANI
.
maxaa lagaala hadli
xoolaha cooska kabadsataaye!

MAD COW
I wonder what is wrong this MAD COW?
Does he/she have not a life?
No work or whatsoever?
Or does he work for Somalinet.com?

Somebody give explanation!

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MAD MAC

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 11:56 pm
Asad
I found this an extremely interesting debate. That's why I largely stayed out of it. I haven't completely figured you out yet. On the one hand, you seem to the right of the MAD Mullah, on the other hand, you sometimes seem like you're to the left of Al Gore. Do you think that Islam at its root will find some equilibrium with the West, kind of a live and let live approach, or do you think we'll be engaged in endless conflict like we are right now?

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asad

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 06:07 am
"I haven't completely figured you out yet. On the one hand, you seem to the right of the MAD Mullah, on the other hand, you sometimes seem like you're to the left of Al Gore"

mad mac, maybe the reason you can not figure me out is that i'm in the middle. it is always good to be in the middle way without compromising your convictions and without getting lost from the way.

"Do you think that Islam at its root will find some equilibrium with the West, kind of a live and let live approach, or do you think we'll be engaged in endless conflict like we are right now?"

well, the message that in the Qu'ran urges the muslims to be in the middle grown and be equilibrium (be balance) without compromising the religion, but i can tell you that there will always be endless conflicts in the world between the right and the wrong. the world will not be in peace as long as there are the injustices we see now every day.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 07:43 am
Asad
There will always be injustice. No two things on this Earth were born with an equal chance. No two humans, no plants no animals, nothing. Justice is surely a relative thing. A man who has gangrene might be happy if he just looses a finger, although he did nothing wrong to loose it. Whereas a man who looses his finger because a gangster is exthorting him would surely think he's the victim of injustice. People who are poor will always feel they are the victim of injustice if there are people who are rich. People who are stupid will always resent those who are intelligent (might admire them at the same time - that's irony for you). People who are old often resent the young. And so on, and so on. Islam can't provide us real equality or justice, at least not in material matters.

Oh, incidentally, I was watching Inside Africa on CNN and this woman claims she's a Prophet. She lives in Ghana. There a multiple claims of miracle healings (not unusual with Prophet claims) and she has formed a church which merged her existing Christian church with Islamic teachings (don't ask me the particulars, they didn't go into detail) but her congregation is made up in more or less equal part of former Muslims and former Christians. I don't know what they're called. All I could think of was here we have a Church full of Apostates from both sides of the fence - this will be trouble if it grows at all.

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asad

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 08:28 am
"Justice is surely a relative thing"


so hitler had his own reasons to do what he did which surely was a relative thing.

"Islam can't provide us real equality or justice, at least not in material matters."

to you, as a gaal, you think it does not, but to the followers of islam, islam provided real equality and real justice in the Qur'an. what do you know about justice?----aren't you the one who said hitler might not face justice--since you do not believe the justice in the hereafter (the existance of the day of judgment)?

"Oh, incidentally, I was watching Inside Africa on CNN and this woman claims she's a Prophet."

i told you that muslims would not believe that there would be another prophet after muhammad, i mean any prophet or any prophetess in africa or in america, including your joseph smith guy you said was a prophet from Allah. ;-)

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 10:26 am
Ahhhh, but some Muslims do believe her, and have abandoned Islam. A couple of hundred actually. Course they're only Bantu, not Somalis or anything. Since this women claims the Qur'an is corrupted (although she's very tactful in saying that) of course the people who join her movement are not going to be Christians or Muslims (although I'm not sure what role Jesus plays in her movement, it's clear he is at least a profit). Anyway, I'm not going to go right out and join her movement (even if I thought she was legit, I don't believe in perfect messages as you know). I just thought about you when it came on. Esspecially when this one ex-Muslim women came on and said she doesn't miss the mosque or Islam. I thought to myself, if only Formerguest were sitting here, we'd have to unscrew him from the ceiling.

Do you know what form of Justice Hitler did or will receive????? No you don't do you. You're as in the dark as I am. Maybe Hitler was part of Allahs grand plan. You don't know. Again, you know as much as I do about what happens to us when we die. If you die and are reincranated (which you don't believe in) then you can speak about death from a factual stand point. Otherwise, you're out of luck.

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asad

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 10:47 am
"Ahhhh, but some Muslims do believe her, and have abandoned Islam."

if people abandoned islam and believer that there is another prophet after muhammad, they are not muslims, are they, mad mac? ;-)

"Course they're only Bantu, not Somalis or anything"

it does not matter what nationality they are if they abandoned islam; they are not muslims.

"Since this women claims the Qur'an is corrupted (although she's very tactful in saying that) of course the people who join her movement are not going to be Christians or Muslims (although I'm not sure what role Jesus plays in her movement, it's clear he is at least a profit)."

anyone who claims to be a prophet of Allah after muhammad and reads the Qur'anic verse that says: "muhammad is the last prophet of Allah" can claim whatever he or she wants. if she claims that she is a prophetess, then she is not the only one that fooled people. joseph smith lied too and you believe in him, right?


"Esspecially when this one ex-Muslim women came on and said she doesn't miss the mosque or Islam. I thought to myself, if only Formerguest were sitting here, we'd have to unscrew him from the ceiling."

an ex-muslim is not a muslim, is she or he?


"Do you know what form of Justice Hitler did or will receive????? No you don't do you. You're as in the dark as I am. Maybe Hitler was part of Allahs grand plan. You don't know. Again, you know as much as I do about what happens to us when we die."

i know what the Qur'an says will happen when we die (when a believer who does good deeds dies and when an un-believer dies).

"If you die and are reincranated (which you don't believe in) then you can speak about death from a factual stand point. Otherwise, you're out of luck."

although i've never seen Allah, i believe that there is Allah. Allah speaks in the Qur'an and tells what comes after death. i have never met and know of no one who come back from death (reincarnation), did you, mad mac? ;-)

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fatimah

Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 06:03 am
Assalam alaikum brothers and sisters,
inshallaah i hope that you read this message in the very best of your iman and health. I’m sure that you are all aware of the fact that inshallaah the holy month of Ramadan is coming up, a chance for us to worship Allaah (swt) and give up our wrong ways. As Muslim brothers and sisters we should spend every day as if it’s our last. Inshallaah I will try to put my knowledge to use so that it can help non-practising Muslims in this case Somalis. If anyone feels that they need to know anything inshallaah relating to Islam, feel free to ask me. At the moment I’m working on a website with some brothers from Kuwait so inshallaah I’ll give people the website address as soon as it is finish. In the mean time I’ll leave the address for a very beneficial website. It’s very authentic and got the go ahead from the best of the scholars. It contains everything from basics to higher depth of knowledge. As a Muslim sister I advice you all to check it out because there many Islamic websites that can misguide you. many Muslims today don’t look back to the Qur’aan and Sunnah of our beloved prophet(saw) or the might just use the qur’aan not knowing that the sunnah is also a revelation from Allah (swt). I advice you dear brothers and sisters to be careful from who you take your knowledge from when it comes to Islam. Know that people would quote an Ayat of Qur’aan, give their own understanding. Reject authentic Hadith not knowing the sight behind that Hadith. Will act and accept weak Hadith and because of a particular way that we’re following we say that this Hadith is Seheeh (meaning authentic). The reason why I give people this advice is that there would still or always be individuals amongst the community still rejecting and refuting without evidence. When you quote an Ayat of Qur’aan understand the meaning and tafseer of this Qur’aan from the people of knowledge. When you read a Hadith know it to be authentic from the people of Hadith not from yourself. Know that Islam is not what your father, friends or country says but islam is the Qur’aan and Sunnah. As Muslim brothers and sisters we should not be affected by the kufr society but be the ones that affect that society. Know that a person who grows up practising Islam from a young age will enter paradise. I really hope that you take this honest advice from me inshallaah. Remember that this day could be a witness for you or witness against you on the day of judgement. The address of the website is as follows:
www.salafipublications.com
inshallaah I surely hope that you enjoy looking though this website, it has many excellent features which you would benefit from. It also has other authentic websites linked to it. By the way sorry that I changed the subject I know it was getting really interesting.

Till next time take care, inshallaah.
Sister fatimah.
Wasalam.

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Anonymous

Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 03:16 am
Asalaamu Caleykum

Gaaladu isma oga ayagu inay xujada isku oogayaan maxaa yeelay Ilaahey waa caadil wuxuuna sheegay inuu cid gardaro u cadaabeyn balse uu u dirayo rasuul diga ah oo gaarsiiya xaqa ugana diga. Gaaladu waxay magaca Islaamka gaarsiiyeen meel uusan waligiis gaarin, yacni mujrimka fadhiya guriga ay u bixiyeen aqalka cad laakiin in badan ka madoow mugdiga qabriga ayaa ka baqaya Islaaamka, waxaa kaloo uu argagax ku ridayaa kan doonaya inuu Islaamka waxyeeleeyo laakiin Alla asaga rucbi ku riday taasna waxay aheyd waxyaalihii nabiga uu sheegay oo kaligiis lagu maneystay "NASARTU BIRUCBI MASIIRATA SHAHR" dagaal lagu qaado meel jirta bil ayaa laga sii baqayaa oo ay Ilaahey u hogaansamayaan intuusan ciidanka soo gaarin, Islaamka waa la ogyahay inuu yahay diin sax ah; clinton ayaaba sheegay washahida shaahidun min ahlihaa, marka waxey doonaan hadey ka sheegaan imageka Islaamka waxba iskama badalaayo bale DACWADII islaamka ayaa faaftay oo gaartay meel walba barina laga dhageysan maayo ma isoo gaarin.

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