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     | Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 03:53 pm Here is the lyrics to a song called "1924". It pretty much speaks for it self and it's worth reading over or listening to it at the mp3 link at the bottom. “1924" The truth about the state It wasn't always like this Let us look back in time History reminds us One army One land One central authority Crushing the romans persians put in fear The Ummah like a Lion No need to shed a tear When the village was attacked by the kufar The Khalife heard The sister cry & Prepared for war Attacking the city Destroying it from existence Lesson # 1 Don't ever Mess with Muslims The Imam of the Ummah is a shield where he protects the Ummah and where the Ummah fights behind him Where is this shield today to protect the Ummah?? What happen to this shield to honor and dignify the Ummah??? In 1917 Prime Minister of britain after entering Jerusalem stated “the crusade war has ended” In the same year the french general, goro went to the grave of Salahudeen-Ayubi Salahudeen-Ayubi, the one who 730 years prier crushed the crusades and liberated Palestine & Syria he went to his grave in Damascus and kicked it and said wake up oh Salahudeen we hare here … How did they do this to you and me We turn on the TV and all we see is a world full of casualties a generation in agony our Ummah is in misery let us go back to beginning of the century and review our history from one side to the other side of the globe the system of Islam Ruled over the world They went to the Muslims for the all their solutions from mathematics to biology to the advancements in technology the kafir women use to imitate our women they wanted the same respect that the Muslims sisters were given while the enemies of Islam were trying to twist the Quran trying to write a Surah like Allah’s they all failed miserably & many of them responded with Ashhadu -an la Ilaha Ilallah wa Ashhadu- anna Muhammadun rasullullah Allah has challenged the humanity until the day of judgment to produce a Sura or an Aya like the Quran And Allah assures that they will never be able to make an Aya like it The kufar plan and work to destroy this Deen and Allah affirms that we too are planning and if all the people of the world got together they still could not and will never be able to put even a scratch a side of a muster seeds on the throne of almighty Allah (SWT) After failing on the battlefield they kufar got together and they decided to yield they said we must change the way the Muslims think and sure enough the Muslim Ummah began to sink In 1917 john belford promised Palestine to the jews 31 years later his promise went through brittan and france split the Muslim lands 3 years later Islam worst traitor mustafa kamal Brought the states fall In 1920’s mustafah kammal with the help of the british becomes the hero Hmm… well this so-called hero cancels the authority of the most powerful system suitable for human beings The khilafah!!!… he abandon all the rulings of Allah… he did not stop there…. He banded the Adan in Arabic, he denied Muslim sister from obeying Allah (SWT) by abandoning the Hijab All Islamic calendars and holidays were canceled Yes brothers and sisters… he changes the Arabic alphabet to Latin By doing so he made sure the next generation will be lost and have no connection to their Islamic roots as they can not read or write all the Islamic culture that was recorded This Islamic system sent by the Creator of alameen went from the application in life to be in museums for people to go and see in turkeyIn 1924 Our state was demolished Hundred years of planning And their plans were accomplished Kafirs broke our bond Contaminated our knowledge Better listen up because you won't learn this in college Beginning of the end and the divisions began Step by step they divided our lands in 1921 saudi arabia & iran next year egypt & In 32 iraq In 1945 jordan indonesia Lebonen & syria Two years later The division of India the Muslims took a stand and demanded the ruling of Islam so they gave them pakistan but it was only an illusion a false resolution far from the solution In 1948 The Jews establish their israeli state In 1901 the kufar went to Sultan Abdull Hamid the II and offered to pay tremendous amount of money to the Islamic State for Palestine. Sultan Abdull Hamid the II replied: I am not going to give one inch of Palestine to the jews as Palestine is not mine give but it belongs to the Ummah and Ummah have shed blood to defend this land but if one day the Islamic State falls apart then you can have Palestine for free but as long as I am alive I would rather have my flesh be cut up then cut out Palestine from the Muslim land I will not allow any carving up while we are alive!!!!! In 1960's somolia & nigaria kuwait & algeria In 1964 Came the PLO yasar arafat The us scarecrow a great declined In 1969 When the west was training Muslims scholars for hire Jews were setting Al-Aqsa mosque on fire! Let us recall 1970 For those who don't remember That was the year That we had black September The king of jorden & yaser arafat Began their plot Shot after shot Muslim blood spilled As innocent Muslims were killed Communism attacked but Muslims fought back The sincere Mujahideen of Afghanistan fought and pushed back the Russians and then They started to fight among themselves Khomaine became in power with the promise of ruling and raising the Ummah to a level of dignity But his promise never went through soon after iran and iraq went to war And millions of innocent Muslims died for 10 years Muslims killing Muslims Over what!!!??? What else…!!! the agenda of the west!!! …at the end there were no resolution Today iran is very much open to democracy and reformation and the Muslims in iraq continue to suffer…. SubhanAllah!…. where is the Amir of the Ummah??!!!!….. Another decade gone But we still don't have Islam Take a look at the gulf And the killings of sadam Over million Muslims died But no one answered their cries In the 1990's The Muslim genocide Bosnia Kosovo Chechenya Dagistan Bring back Islam! Bring back Islam! Bring back Islam! Bring back Islam! It’s year 2000 And nothing has changed Past generation has aged Let us write the next page It’s time for us to change It’s up to you & me Either we make history or we become history… www.soldiersofallah.com www.mp3.com/soldiersofallah
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 02:28 am Alyisa Have you ever studied the principal of segmentary opposition? Muslims will never be "as one" because they are not as one - just as the West is not. That's why Muslim Clerics love calls to Jihad, and love demonizing "Kufaars" - it is a way to unite Muslims, under their leadership of course. It's the same trick Milosevic used, the same trick Hitler used, the same trick Kim Jong Il uses now. Find an enemy, if he's not real make him real, demonize him, don't seek honest negotiation. Brand as traitors those who do. Then unite the masses under a common banner to fight "the Infidel", "The Bourgousie", "The Communists", "The World Jewish Conspiracy" or whatever. If anyone tries to understand the roots of the problem and solve it, attack him. Because if the enemy is not the enemy then you might actually examine the leader carefully, determine he's a scumbag, and overthrow him. And we can't have that, can we? You see, the reality is that Muslims might say they are Muslims first, but actually they are Somali first, Saudis first, etc, etc. And Among Somalis they then become Hawiye first, Darood first, Isaaq first, etc. You see where this is going, I'm sure. Also there's two ways of looking at history. One way is from the victim perspective. The poor Arabs were victimized by the sneaky and underhanded Europeans. But the flip side of the coin is the Arabs were so stupid that let themselves be manipulated. To charge the Europeans with being evil and wrong in their colonial policy is to charge the subject lands with stupidity. They go hand in hand. OF course the truth lies somewhere in between. The forces that make up events are usually complex and it's usually not black and white. That's why we (Americans) look back on WW II so fondly. That was simple good guys and bad guys, peace and democracy. Just food for thought here.
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 03:54 am Salaam Liman Taba'a Hudaa Alyisa; Thank you very much for remind us that! and trully we are the generation who should return the history course wether "they" liked or not. MAD CAW, later !
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 07:39 am "Also there's two ways of looking at history. One way is from the victim perspective. The poor Arabs were victimized by the sneaky and underhanded Europeans. But the flip side of the coin is the Arabs were so stupid that let themselves be manipulated. To charge the Europeans with being evil and wrong in their colonial policy is to charge the subject lands with stupidity. They go hand in hand. OF course the truth lies somewhere in between. The forces that make up events are usually complex and it's usually not black and white. That's why we (Americans) look back on WW II so fondly. That was simple good guys and bad guys, peace and democracy." The poor palestinians were victimized by the sneaky and underhanded europeans first and now the americans. the israelis have benefited for over 50 years and with the support of the US and Britain. now, jews in the US hide behind Israeli law when they committ brutal murders. is this what the US gives trillions of dollars in support for? from the outbreak of this whole situation it has been one escalation after another by the israeli government. truly sad, but it just goes to show they never wanted peace to begin with. they make hilter look nice. as they say, 'hilter is turning over his grave now and saying---i told you so about these people, how wicked they are' if hilter would have finished victims and europeans and americans did not come to the rescue, none of this would have happened, right, mad mac? ;-)
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 09:42 am Asad You know, I respect your opinions, but when it comes to Hitlers policies and nature, you are totally naive. Hitler was the most ruthless and aggressive leader the world has ever seen. The level of viciousness of the SS, The RSHA and the Einsatgruppen has no parralel. If the SS were in charge in Israel right now, the comparison you make with the State of Israel, there would no longer be any violence on the West Bank or Gaza because every single Palestinian would be dead. EVERY LAST MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD. And I am not exagerating here. How many Palestinians have died so far while rioting? 100? 120? I'm not saying the Israelis are in the right here, but your comparison is pathetic and lacks historical perspective. You either delibarelt exagerate or you really don't understand what NAZI Germany was all about. It wasn't interested in subjugating the Jews or subjugating Eastern Europeans to their rule, it was interested in exterminating them. As long as the Palestinians riot it will be hard for them to get support outside the Muslim world, and the Muslim world is too weak (even were it united, which it is not) to provide sufficient support for a military solution. If Palestinians want to achieve the best possible solution they had better look at taking another route, because right now they are only hardening Israeli resolve. As I have told you many times, it doesn't matter who is wrong or who is right once the soldiers are in a fight. It becomes kill or be killed. And when soldiers feel threatened they will start killing. The lid is about to blow off in the Middle East and that is simply going to translate into a lot of dead people for no discernible gain.
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 10:47 am "If the SS were in charge in Israel right now, the comparison you make with the State of Israel, there would no longer be any violence on the West Bank or Gaza because every single Palestinian would be dead. EVERY LAST MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD. And I am not exagerating here. How many Palestinians have died so far while rioting? How many Palestinians have died so far while rioting? 100? 120? I'm not saying the Israelis are in the right here, but your comparison is pathetic and lacks historical perspective. " if the SS would have killed every single jewish, the palestinians living in west bank and gaza would not have been terrorized by the jewish. that is a fact. palestinians would be save from killing, torture and oppression in their own land. "As long as the Palestinians riot it will be hard for them to get support outside the Muslim world, and the Muslim world is too weak (even were it united, which it is not) to provide sufficient support for a military solution." that is true, like the jewish in germany, palestinians are not getting outside support. they are too weak and the like hilter, jewish are too strong with the help of US. "If Palestinians want to achieve the best possible solution they had better look at taking another route, because right now they are only hardening Israeli resolve." the best route they have right now is to riot and let the world know what the israeli terrorists are doing "As I have told you many times, it doesn't matter who is wrong or who is right once the soldiers are in a fight. It becomes kill or be killed. And when soldiers feel threatened they will start killing. The lid is about to blow off in the Middle East and that is simply going to translate into a lot of dead people for no discernible gain." the german soldiers (the SS) felt threatened and did what they had to do to the jewish people, right? it did not matter what was right and who was wrong, right? every time i see the israeli terrorists killing palestinian kids and the dead palestinian people, i remember hilter.
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 04:43 pm Mad Nac, before u make a misguided analysis and bring some theoretical Principle which is taught in 101 Sociology course to put Hitler and our Muslim Culama(I'm not calling them Clerics)in the same position, understand the situation and what our Culama want for their people and mankind, as a whole. They want justice and good and they are against evil and aggression. They do it for the sake of Allah. They are the people of Allah, while Hitler, Jewish state, US state and their allies are against Allah. They don't believe in Allah. They want to rule the world with injustice, favoritism and worldly interests, simply, because they are the forces of Evil. And Jihad means preventing evil and Fasaad(disorder)from spreading on the land of Allah. That is the job of the people of Allah and that what "Khaliifa on the land" means. In comparing, some evils are more dangerous than others. Which is/was most dangerous is a matter of opinion. As for this century, some will say, it's the Western World which became very sophisticated in deception, making wrong look right and brainwash people like Mac Nac. Today, you see justified step-by-step eradication of Muslims around the world. Yesterday, it was nicked aggression and declared oppression. As for Somalis, the worst evil, in my opinion, is Qabaliyah(clanism). Allah make us one of those you guided and give us the upper hand over Evil and his forces.
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 07:13 pm Hard to miss american mentality.
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| | Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 10:19 pm Formerguest Hard to miss that holier than thou Muslim mentality. Nuur Everyone who leads some military operation always claims God is on his side. You think this is something new. I reject calls to military operations under such claims as you propose. I also believe the Culama (or whatever you want to call them) are as full of •••• as everyone else. they don't have any more insight into the nature of God than you or I. They're just BSing you. The West is not out to destroy Islam - it's a ridiculous idea. Everyone that is not a muslim is not evil - another stupid idea. In fact, if Muslim countries didn't have any oil you'd be pretty much ignored. the days of conquest to have the most land are over. When the global energy supplies transition from oil (as they must do eventually) the US, the West and the East will forget about the Middle East. It will return to the backwater it was 200 years ago. Because outside of oil there's very little economic activity there. It's all cottage industries and local markets. You all act like there's some sort of global conspiracy (you sound just like the Jews) to attack Islam, which is just plain nonsense. Asad You are just flat out wrong. the best route for the Palestinians is not to riot. They look like animals on TV. Throwing rocks and acting stupid. Did you see them hitting the dead guys on TV? (A violation of Islamic law, I might add) That kind of publicity is not going to get them any sympathy, and sympathy is the only weapon they have. If they fail to undermine Israeli public opinion, instead of hardening it as they are doing now, they are going to get hammered. Barak is now about to form a new government with the loonies in it because he has no choice. He can't maintain the tack he was taking. The situation has crumbled the weak foundation he was standing on. What all of you are too pig-headed to understand is that the solution to the Palestinians problems lie in the knesset. the Palestinians must influence the Knesset. And the way to do that is through Israeli public opiinion. Make the Israelis feel threatened, as the Palestinians are now doing, and the hard liners say "see, I told you they're a bunch of animlas." Then Joe Six Pack, watching on TV says, "yeah, Sharon is right." Next thing you know Sharon is calling the shots. And since God is on the side with the best artillery, you see where that leads. Instead of praying to God to help them, the Palestinians need to hire Henry Kissinger as a consultant, cause they don't know what the hell they're doing.
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 06:47 am mad mac, i can tell you that palestinian people will not rest. no matter how they are terrorized by the israelis, they will do anything to get freedom by any means necessary. were the so called the founding fathers of this country (patrick henry and alike) wrong when they said 'give me death or give me liberty'? did they turn the other cheek and song 'we shall over come'? "Did you see them hitting the dead guys on TV? " i saw worst than what i saw on tv. i saw israeli terrorists killing kids and women. at least, the dead were israeli terrorists in uniform were not innocent. they, themselves, had in their hands innocent blood drippling all over. i also remember the same things happening to american dead body in the streets of mogadishu not long time ago. the funny thing is that the jews and the ameicans do not see what they are doing to innocent people, but when they see their own kind, they want sympathy!
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 07:44 am "Make the Israelis feel threatened, as the Palestinians are now doing, and the hard liners say "see, I told you they're a bunch of animlas." whenever the israeli terrorists (their government) manipulate and have excuses like the one above, hilter, in his grave, is saying "see, i told you that these wicked jews are nothing but (and worst than) animals". ;-)
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 07:54 am "Barak is now about to form a new government with the loonies in it because he has no choice. He can't maintain the tack he was taking. What all of you are too pig-headed to understand is that the solution to the Palestinians problems lie in the knesset. the Palestinians must influence the Knesset. And the way to do that is through Israeli public opiinion" i wonder if hilter had a choice when he formed his government. he could not. maybe hilter was a nice guy. he was forced to act the way he did by pig-headed jewish, who were so stupid to influence the german public, right, mad mac? it is the jewish people fault for the support hitler received from the german public, right, mad mac?
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 09:44 am Hitler had all the choices in the world. He called the shots as soon as he became Reichs Kanzler. Barak governs in a coalition. He doesn't have unchecked authority. Now, so far, you aren't listening to anything I'm saying here. You'Re focussing on who's right and who's wrong. What I'm trying to explain to you is that in the real world, who's right and who's wrong is irrelevant. You can be dead right. If the Palestinians want justice, the only place they can seek it is in the Knesset. That seems like a simple thing to understand. If the Palestinians continue to riot they'll continue to die. It's a simple as that. They will accomplish absolutely nothing, other than keep the undertaker busy. The difference between the American Revolution and this conflict is the Americans had the resources to win our conflict, the Palestinians don't. You say the Palestinian people will not rest - they will when they're all dead. And that's what's going to happen. Remember, there is a faction of the Israeli population which believes the Palestinians are the cannanites. In their mind, God approves killing these people. And since theIsraeli state has the resources to kill them, you can see how it could be a dangerous combination. Let's take the image on TV. The dead women and kids, that looks bad. But they were shot at range. It's pretty impersonal. It doesn't come close to evoking the emotion of watching a mob beat someone to death. Did you see Israeli soldiers on TV literally dripping in blood reveling over the dead, kicking the bodies? No you didn't see that. I'm not placing a value on it one way or the other, I'm just talking practical implications. Every Jew watching that scene saw himself as the guy being kicked to death and said "screw that, let's go kill them all." And since they can go kill them all, the Palestinians are painting themselves into a corner. In short, they are playing right into the hands of their enemies. The Palestinians can't win this fight through violence, but they can lose more land.
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 10:45 am "If the Palestians want justice, the only place they can seek is in the Knesset" As weird as it seems...it could work. It worked with Anwar Sadat in 1979!!! But how, after all the goal of jews is to control from Tigris to the Nile. I think all three of u (Mad Mac, Asad & Nur) are saying the same strategy repeatedly...but each seeing the world from his own perspective. peace...
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 12:02 pm "Hitler had all the choices in the world. He called the shots as soon as he became Reichs Kanzler. Barak governs in a coalition. He doesn't have unchecked authority." like hitler, barak's government did kill innocent people without him checking any authority over him. "If the Palestinians want justice, the only place they can seek it is in the Knesset. That seems like a simple thing to understand. If the Palestinians continue to riot they'll continue to die. It's a simple as that. They will accomplish absolutely nothing, other than keep the undertaker busy. " palestinians don't have peace in their own homes. . if the israeli terrorists do not give peace, there is no other place for the palestinians to go. the only peace they seek is to get freedom. it is like you putting your foot on my neck and telling me to be there if i want peace. if i move my legs and try to kick you, you shoot me and accuse me of resisting.! "The difference between the American Revolution and this conflict is the Americans had the resources to win our conflict, the Palestinians don't. You say the Palestinian people will not rest - they will when they're all dead. And that's what's going to happen. " oppression is worst than murder. i rather be dead than be oppressed in my own home. "Remember, there is a faction of the Israeli population which believes the Palestinians are the cannanites. In their mind, God approves killing these people. And since the Israeli state has the resources to kill them, you can see how it could be a dangerous combination" i don't see any difference between the israeli population and its governments. since their religious books say is okay to kill palestinians, both the people and its government proven that, but this does not mean the palestinian should be give up and be oppressed. as long as they are oppressed, the palestinian people need to roit and do whatever they can to let the world their blight. "Let's take the image on TV. The dead women and kids, that looks bad. But they were shot at range. It's pretty impersonal. It doesn't come close to evoking the emotion of watching a mob beat someone to death." the dead animals were killers and the palestinian kids and women were innocent. " Did you see Israeli soldiers on TV literally dripping in blood reveling over the dead, kicking the bodies? No you didn't see that" they were there to kill and occupy. they had no right to be there. "I'm not placing a value on it one way or the other, I'm just talking practical implications." the israeli terrorists are placing a value on it. " Every Jew watching that scene saw himself as the guy being kicked to death and said "screw that, let's go kill them all. And since they can go kill them all, the Palestinians are painting themselves into a corner." that is what i'm talking about. they do not see the innocent kids and women who died in the hand of israeli terrorists. the israeli terrorists are placing a value on it. "In short, they are playing right into the hands of their enemies. The Palestinians can't win this fight through violence, but they can lose more land." as i told you, oppression is worst than murder and death. the israeli terrorists can continue their killing. if hitler would have finished them all, this would not have happened, right?
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 12:52 pm Mad Mac, We're the ones who are murdered by the Hundreds daily, we're the ones that die of starvation because we're subjected to economic exploitation, we're the ones under siege all the time, all over the world and yet we're still the bad guys. When we demand an end to all of this we're labelled as terrorists and our struggle(jihad)against our enemy is seen, by common folks like yourself, as an artificial tool to unify our people. How Preposterous! Nationalism pride is what got us into this mess, your people saw it as tool to defeat us and by the looks of it they've used it effectively. However, don't start celebrating just yet, there seems to be a flaw in your almost perfect plan to bring us down. You see, with every generation the idea of unity and Khilafa takes a firmer hold and with every dead Muslim this notion grows stronger. While previous generations, like you say, were Saudis first or Somalis first I assure you this is not the mentality of this generation or the next. You may accuse me of being an idealist but someone on here said, if the 20th century belonged to the Europeans then the 21st century belongs to the Muslims and I couldn't agree more.
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| | Friday, October 13, 2000 - 02:48 pm I wonder what is wrong this MAD COW? Does he/she have not a life? No work or whatsoever? Or does he work for Somalinet.com? you, f*****g jew! The history'll rebeat
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 02:31 am Side Watcher, don't you get tired of cutting and pasting the same message? Alyisa Now you're talking the global economic situation. You can'T make economic adjustment through terrorist bombings, kidnappings and acts. You should know that. The situation that has led to economic disparity is complex. It is not the sole fault of anyone really. People who are subjected to poverty understanbly seek simple solutions and simple culprits, but the world isn't that simple. It's not a question of good guys versus bad guys. Jihad is usually an artifical tool, just like all wild claims of good versus evil are artificial tools masking something else. I've studied this phenomenon quite a bit. Look at history, it's replete with examples. People who answer calls to military Jihad and end up throwing rocks on the street are suckers - risking their lives for someone elses gain. Now before you say that I do the same, I am well compensated for my efforts financially. Do you think I would have participated in any of those Operations because I thought it was a righteous cause????? I don'T think so. Show me the money, that's my motto. The only exception to that rule is when I originate the op - like my plan to go back to Somalia. That's my brain child, so I can feel confortable the goals are just. Asad You say you don't see any difference between the Israeli people and their government. You're not looking closely enough. No people are homogenous. Their is dissent in Israeli right now. There are a lot of Israelis who are uncomfortable with the Palestinian situation and think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal. BUT right now, with Israel feeling under siege, they are not in a position to speak out, and Joe Six Pack won't relate to them. Just like during our own war in Vietnam, where we had internal dissent that eventually led to our withdrawal, the Palestinians could seek justice through these people, who could directly influence the policies of the Israeli government, but not in a climate of violence and fear. Then this segment, that supported the original peace negotiations, gets no vote. You know I'm right here. Your solution, for the Palestinians to resist until they are all dead, is not much of a solution. The Jews have no where to go, so if they have to continue to battle the Palestinians forever, they will.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 08:12 am "You say you don't see any difference between the Israeli people and their government. You're not looking closely enough. No people are homogenous. Their is dissent in Israeli right now." the israeli people and their government always claim that they are victims of hostility (what hitler did to them), but they do not see the terrorism they do innocent people. the jewish people in israel and other places in the world are supporting the terrorists in israel (the government). the US governmet is supporting state terrorist in israel and those who lobby for this terrorist government are jewish people and those they bought them (the christians). "Your solution, for the Palestinians to resist until they are all dead, is not much of a solution. The Jews have no where to go, so if they have to continue to battle the Palestinians forever, they will." well, if the jews want to continue to terrorize the palestinian forever, the palestinian will not rest. the palestinian people will not sing 'we shall over come'. they will continue to sign 'give me death or give me liberty'. oppression is worst than murder.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 08:15 am "You say you don't see any difference between the Israeli people and their government. You're not looking closely enough. No people are homogenous. Their is dissent in Israeli right now." the israeli people and their government always claim that they are victims of hostility (what hitler did to them), but they do not see the terrorism they do to innocent people. the jewish people in israel and other places in the world are supporting the terrorists in israel (the government). the US governmet is supporting state terrorist in israel and those who lobby for this terrorist government are jewish people and those they bought(the christians). "Your solution, for the Palestinians to resist until they are all dead, is not much of a solution. The Jews have no where to go, so if they have to continue to battle the Palestinians forever, they will." well, if the jews want to continue to terrorize the palestinian forever, the palestinian will not rest. the palestinian people will not sing 'we shall over come'. they will continue to sign 'give me death or give me liberty'. oppression is worst than murder. accepting oppression is no solution.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:52 am Asad Well, if you're right, the Palestinians will get death. There is no military solution for them.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:56 am mad mac, what the israeli terrorists are offering is no solution either. continues oppression is no solution. death is better than oppression.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 02:38 pm Asad I did not say I thought they should seek the Israeli solution. I said I thought they should undermine the Israeli will. You aren't listening again.
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| | Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 03:20 pm "I did not say I thought they should seek the Israeli solution. I said I thought they should undermine the Israeli will." mad mac, i told you before that your solution is stupid. if your solution for palestinian people is to be happy with the situation the isreali terrorists put on them for fear of them dying whe they protest, then your solution is stupid. if you were standing on my neck and your solution for me is not to protest, but instead be happy with the sitution for fear of you shooting me with your gun when i kick, throw sands or stones and protest, then that would not happen. i rather you shoot me than be happy with the situation you standing on my neck. again, oppression is worst than death.
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| | Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 11:50 pm Asad I told you before that your solution is stupid. All that the Palestinians can hope to accomplsih with your solution is to get driven off of the West bank into Jordan and / or get shot. Eventually the Israelis will say, "ya know, having these damn Palestinians around is a pain in the ass, they gotta go." And then the IDF will round 'em up and ship 'em out. Those who resist will be shot. The UN and the world will complain, but no one will really do anything about it. Whereas my solution is actually quite smart. Israel is a parliementary democracy. The way to defeat the IDF is to defeat the will behind it. You ever study segmentary opposition? the Israelis right now are unifying behind the right more and more because they feel threatened. But if they didn't feel threatened, if instead the Palestinians made them feel ashamed, then there would be no will to employ the IDF. That is what this Surah is talking about. This technique would not work as well int he pre-modern era, but with the advent of modern mass media it would work remarkably well. You would have the image of peace loving, God fearing people being oppressed. Regardless of the facts, you don't have that image right now. You have the image of out of control mobs burning down their own buildings, beating people on the streets, acting like savages. Regardless of the provocations, this will not do anything other than unite Israeli public opinion against them. Exactly the opposite of what they want to achieve. You see, as I told you before, they must undermine their enemies from within, because they can not succeed from without. If the Palestinians would simply march to the IDF security posts calmly, then move around barracades while shaking the soldiers hands, this would totally defuse the anger and it would also solidify the opposition in Israel. IDF soldiers who responded with force, to people who were not acting with force, would project the media image of brutes. This image is not satisfactorily projected now because the IDF appears to be responding to provocation. As long as the Palestinians riot, the Israelis will not object to their being shot. But if the Palestinians respond with non-violent tactics, it will disarm the opposition. Suddenly the Palestinians will be as strong as the Israelis, and the Israelis will not be able to stop them. The hard liners in Israel will lose the information war. Remember, the 800 pound gorilla is only as strong as his will-power.
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| | Monday, October 16, 2000 - 05:44 am "Eventually the Israelis will say, "ya know, having these damn Palestinians around is a pain in the ass, they gotta go." yes, it is pain to have these innocent palestinian people in their own lands and demand their rights, so let the the israeli terrorists kill all of them if the palestinian people are not accepting oppression. every time i read these lines, i understand why hitler did what he did. ;-) "Whereas my solution is actually quite smart." mad mac, i told you before that your solution is stupid. if your solution for palestinian people is to be happy with the situation the isreali terrorists put on them for fear of them dying when they protest, then your solution is stupid. if you were standing on my neck and your solution for me is not to protest, but instead be happy with the sitution for fear of you shooting me with your gun when i kick, throw sands or stones at your face and protest, then that would not happen. i rather you shoot me than be happy with the situation you standing on my neck. again, oppression is worst than death. "As long as the Palestinians riot, the Israelis will not object to their being shot. But if the Palestinians respond with non-violent tactics, it will disarm the opposition. Suddenly the Palestinians will be as strong as the Israelis, and the Israelis will not be able to stop them. The hard liners in Israel will lose the information war. Remember, the 800 pound gorilla is only as strong as his will-power." like i said, every time i read these lines (the excuses and cowordly acts by the jewish people). i understand why hitler did what he did to the jewish people. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 01:58 pm Mad Mac, So let me get this straight, according to your "expertise" when Muslims fight against oppression they're fighting for a lost cause - for someone else's gain. But when you go out on the battle field and kill people you're doing it not because you're fighting against oppression or other forms of evil but because you're being paid to ensure the interests of the big players. You don't know why you're killing and exactly what you're killing for but all that is trivial as long as the money keeps flowing in. What it all boils down to is "show me the money and I'm you're killing machine" attitude. When you tell me that there is no Jewish conspiracy consider why your country feels inclined to protect Israel. Could it be because you're such nice people you feel you need to protect the poor Jews from their hostile, terrorist, Islamic fundamentalist neighbors? Or realistically speaking, could it be because you have very influential Jewish members in your government that use and manipulate you into protecting them? As for the economic situation of the world, I'm sure your people got the upper hand in the economic arena through honest hard work and with a bit of luck.
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| | Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 02:00 pm That's me above....I forgot to write my name in.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 06:10 am There's some good meat here. First with Asad I swear to God, sometimes you just don't get what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the way for the Palestinians to disarm the Israelis, to break their will, is to resort to non-violent protest. Violent protest unifies the Israeli people to resist and use violence and allows the security forces to perform extreme acts. Non-violent protest, where the Palestinians simply marched together, did not resist violent acts, would make the IDF look brutish in the eyes of their master (which is what counts) and the IDF would be reeled in. Suddenly the Palestinians would have an effective weapon, which right now they lack. Alyisa Where, in any of this discourse, have I maintained that I Mr. Morality???? Don't mistake my calculus for morals. I am a professional soldier. I couldn't care less about the cause I am sent to fight for. You start thinking about that, as a career soldier, and you'll drive yourself crazy. I get my missions, I execute them. I don't spend any time contemplating whether or not they're morally justifiable. Other people are paid to do that, I am not. I did exactly model my career after the life of Christ and I don'T pretend I did. But in geopolitical analysis, I know what works and I know what doesn't. I know when the application of force will be successful and I know when it won't. You and Asad are thinking about who's right and who's wrong. That doesn't matter. What matters is what will succeed. Right now, the Palestinians are screwed because they think like you guys - more or less. They have failed to properly analyze the situation. It's as simple as that. Like I have said all along, for the Palestinians to be successful they must figure out how to break up Israeli unity. Now they are driving the Israelis together. Read up on the theory of segmentary opposition and you will better understand what I am trying to communicate here. Asad Stop trying to attach morals to your arguments. Morals are irrelevant. Think the problem through from both perspectives. How do the Palestinians arrive at the end state they desire?? What is their enemies weakness?? Think it through.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 09:20 am "I swear to God, sometimes you just don't get what I'm saying." the feeling is mutual. '-) "What I'm saying is that the way for the Palestinians to disarm the Israelis, to break their will, is to resort to non-violent protest. Violent protest unifies the Israeli people to resist and use violence and allows the security forces to perform extreme acts. Non-violent protest, where the Palestinians simply marched together, did not resist violent acts, would make the IDF look brutish in the eyes of their master (which is what counts) and the IDF would be reeled in. Suddenly the Palestinians would have an effective weapon, which right now they lack." and what i'm saying is that the israeli terrorists are making the same excuse you are making in order to oppress the palestinian people forever. it has been 50 years and the israelis are still blaming the victims. you come to my house and took most of what i had and then kill my children, then you blame me and you tell me i should behave and do not throw stones at you. like i said, every time i read these lines (the excuses and cowordly acts by the jewish people). i understand why hitler did what he did to the jewish people. ;-).
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 09:29 am "Stop trying to attach morals to your arguments." Morals are irrelevant. Think the problem through from both perspectives. How do the Palestinians arrive at the end state they desire?? What is their enemies weakness?? Think it through. " then, no one should accuse hitler to have been moralily wrong for what he did. let's make his actions and his stands irrelevant. let's understand his perspectives and the problem hitler had to deal with jewish people in germany. how did the jewish people in germany end up? was it their desire to be in the state they were? what was hitler's weakness? maybe he was scared of the jewish people may take revenge if he let them live in own homes. let's really understand his perspective and give him exucess. ;-)
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 09:50 am "You start thinking about that, as a career soldier, and you'll drive yourself crazy. I get my missions, I execute them. I don't spend any time contemplating whether or not they're morally justifiable." now i uderstand why you reject the judgment day in the hereafter. ;-) "I did exactly model my career after the life of Christ" what a lair! the christ contemplated and taught actions are morally justifiable, which will lead one to happiness in paradise or to be damned in hell. "Like I have said all along, for the Palestinians to be successful they must figure out how to break up Israeli unity. Now they are driving the Israelis together. Read up on the theory of segmentary opposition and you will better understand what I am trying to communicate here." as i said, this is the propoganda of the jewish people and those who support them (the US). like i said, the excuses and cowordly acts (blaming the victims) by the jewish people is normal for them. i understand why hitler did what he did to the jewish people. he new these people are wicked people. at least, hitler had the guts to be terrorist; these jewish terrorists, in their cowordly acts, have no guts whatsoever. all they have is exucess.! if hitler used the kind of excuses the jewish terrorists and those who support them are using, would the jewish people understand? ;-)
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 12:05 pm Mad Mac, You're right, I shouldn't assume you to have any moral sense. I have the same respect for an American soldier as I do for a hitman. In my book you're both the same, you murder to get paid. The Palestinians are "screwed" because their leader gave into the demands of the Israelis over the years in the name of peace. The only way these people can ever live in peace is with the removal of "israel" from their homeland. They've survived countless genocide and massacres and they will once again survive for true believers are never extinct.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 02:35 pm Both of you guys sound like morons here. OK, first, Asad I meant to write "I didn't actually model my career after the life of Christ" - Typo. Now, I know you're not a moron - stubborn as hell, but not a moron. Bear in mind Hitler held Muslims in equal contempt to Jews. He'd have gotten around to killing all of you as well had time permitted. You can thank us lousy Americans and Godless Russians for preventing that from happening. What I am saying is NOT, I say again NOT, that the Palestinians should just knuckle under. I AM saying that they should use the one weapon at their disposal - that is non-violent protest. Non-violent protest will rapidly turn them into victims in the eyes of the Israeli people. In a democracy, which Israel is, that is everything. The war can not be won with weapons, the Israelis (regardless of whom you find guilty of it) are too well armed. But it can be won with pursuasion. Don't you get it? Israeli public opinion is the key to victory here for the Palestinians. Alyisa Well, I think murder is overstated. I am killing people who are trying to kill me. You may extrapolate from there that perhaps my political leadership is unjustified in its actions, and therefore I shoulder blame for executing their faulty judegement, but in our system of government, that is not the case unless their orders are CLEARLY (not by the rules of Islam) immoral or illegal. Now, you say the Palestinians are screwed because their leasder gave in to the demands of the Israelis. Well, why would he do that? He's in a no-win situation. If the Palestinian Authority doesn't get it's own population under control the IDF is going to up the ante - the Palestinians can't go toe to toe with the IDF and they know it. Neither can the Arab States. If they attack Israel (as you appear to advocate here) the end state will be lots of dead Arabs. If the Palestinians (and in a bigger picture the Arab world) does not find a way to resolve this crises through negotiation, if they increase the violent pressure on Israel, the climate will be ripe for a war in which the Israelis drive the Palestinians onto the east bank of the Jordan River and out of Gaza completely. If that happens, the dream of a Palestinian homeland is dead. The Jews will seal the border, reorganize their economy, and there will be no one left to riot with. The Palestinians can not win this through violence, but they can win it if they take a chapter out of Mahatma Ghandis book.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 04:57 pm "Both of you guys sound like morons here." it takes a moron to know one. ;-) "Now, I know you're not a moron - stubborn as hell, but not a moron." if you ask me who is the stuborn on here, i would say the mad mac. ;-) "Bear in mind Hitler held Muslims" sure "in equal contempt to Jews." i do not think so. ;-) "He'd have gotten around to killing all of you as well had time permitted." but he would not have the cheap excuses the jewish terrorist use. he had the guts to do what he did. he was not ask wicked as the jewish people. ;-) "You can thank us lousy Americans and Godless Russians for preventing that from happening." his mistake was that he thought he could have everything and could go on forever. imagine if hitler didn't do what he did to the jewish people, there would be more of them who fiendish. who would be preventing them from doing their wicked ways. maybe another curse would visit them sooner or later as it has over in their history. ;-) "What I am saying is NOT, I say again NOT, that the Palestinians should just knuckle under." well, i as i said, when i see their israeli terrorists doing what they do best, i remember their history and why they are the way they are. i do not knuckle; i reminisce. like hitler and so many other terrorists in the world, jewish people and those who support them will get what they deserve in the future. ;-) for the jewish people, specially, for sure, another curse would visit them sooner or later as it has---over in their history. ;-). i hear they are planting lots of trees in tel-eviv. ;-)
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 05:11 pm Mad Mac, "I am killing people who are trying to kill me" Now you sound like a moron. You can sell that to your people but not to me or to any other Muslim. I think I'm with Asad on this one. The non-violence method you preach is a Jewish propaganda to keep the Palestinians under occupation forever. You know as well as I do if the Arab world united and took a firm stand against Israel, the Palestinians will be liberated in no time. Of course this is unlikely to happen anytime soon because all the Arab leaders are agents of the United States which is controlled by Israel. Before you debate this consider what I've said above about your country protecting Israel.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 11:25 pm let me continue from where i left off when i said "for the jewish people, specially, for sure, another curse would visit them sooner or later as it has---over in their history. ;-). the history of jews is full of them getting screwed. misery is their permanent national characterictis. as race, the jews, as mentioned in their books, are people who are addicted to greed, a special aptitude for money-making, corruption, aversion to hard work, lack of social tact and crime or objectionable act committed by any indivitual jew. horrors of jewish history, whether of remote past or recent as 1940's are well known, lamented by friends and gloated over by foes, but recognized and admitted by all. for ages, in the words of christian historian, "the hebrew history has been the same everywhere in which we miss the quality of agony". and a leading jew is said to have exclaimed, "if there are gradations in suffereing, israel has reached its hightest acme.". certaintly, there is no history so full of mournful pathos as theirs. and it is instructive, if also pathetic, to note that in the years 1938-39, with all the wealth and commerce and influence at their command, there are incessant refernces in their press to frighful persecution. and the beatings, the murders, the torture, the robbling, the blackmailing, the arrests and imprisonments and humilations, both public and private that are being perpetrated on them in several parts of civilized europe, only to turn back and do it the same things that has been done to them to others )the innocent palestinian people)! this persecution on the jewish by others (by the christians) were not religious; it is pre-eminently racial and no escape was possible even after the change of faith. for we are distincly told neither baptised jews nor even christian children or grand-children of baptised jews are immune from the raging scourge. many jews in germany tried to abandon their jewish traditions, faith and usages and became entirely german, but as the official test of judaism now is not religious but racial, and as even those who have a jewish grand-parent are considered jews, they did not escape persecution by having been baptised or having became german in outlook. those jews who tried to germanise themselves (some even demonstratively repudiating their judaism are hit terribly hard), and many have committed suicide. the history of jewry is the history of human struggles. for more than two thousand years the jewish people have incessantly struggled for socail justice and self-preservation, but when it comes to palestinian people, the jewish people here are the ones perpetuating injustices.! muslims saved jews many times from the christians and the jewish people found in islamic homes safe heavens, but as always, the jewish people are known to double-cross the muslims. the Qur'an is not the only book that give hints about the children of israel and their wicked ways. the Qur'an as well as their religious books are clear about their nature. Allah says they (the children of israel) turned away from worship of Allah, kindness to parents, kidred, orphans, needy; how rude they were to mankind, how they (all of them except few of them) gave up prayers and the giving of the poor-rate. Allah calls the children of israel in that ayah and says to them after they rejected him this: "you are backsliders". even their own books say this about them: "i have seen this people (the children of israel), and behold, it is a stiffnecked people"  Ex 32:9). "thou art a stiffnecked people...from the day that thou didst depart out the land of egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord". and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to WRATH in the wilderness; from the day thou didst depart out of the land of egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord. Also in horeb ye provoked the Lord to WRATH, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you. When I was gone up to the mount to receive the tablets of stone...the Lord said unto me:...thy people which thou hast brought forth out of egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which i commanded them; they have made a molten image furthermore, the Lord spake unto me, saying, i have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. let me alone, that i may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven(Dt. 9: 7-13). 'ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord, your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice. ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?...i know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which i have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to angry through the work of your hands'(31:27-29) 'they mocked the messangers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy(2 Ch. 36:16) 'wherefore, will ye plead with me? ye have all transgressed against me, saith the Lord..your own sword has devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion (Je. 2:29-30). 'they were disobedient and rebelled against thee, and cast the law behind their backs, and slew they prophets(Ne 9:26)'...ye are the childern of them which killed the prophets....ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?...wherefore, behold, i send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some them shall ye scourge in your synagogues and perssecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous abel unto the blood of zachariah, son of barechiah, whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.(mt. 23:31-36)." also, the Qur'an tells us about these people: the children of israel are the people who worshipped the calf; they are the people who claimed that fire will not touch them (3: 24); they are the ones who denied the truth out of envy (2:90); they are the ones who killed their own brothers (prophets) (2:61); the children of israel are the ones made to wonder in the wilderness(5:26). since most of the israelites were rebellious people, the curse of Allah were upon them, because they were infidels and Allah curses infidels(2:89). "...and struck upon them were abasement and poverty. and they drew on themselves wrath from Allah. this, because they were ever disbelieving in the signs of Allah and *slaying the prophets unjustly.* this, because they disobeyed and were ever transgressing" the Qur'an: 2:61.
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 03:00 am Asad You know, something just occurred to me. You earlier chastised the Jews for considering themselves to be chosen people, but at the same time the Qur'an chastizes them merely for being Jews. The inverse example. It paints the people with specific traits based simply on who they are. If a Jew converted to Islam he would still be what he was born as, he would not suddenly change his charecteristics. He might adopt some new ideals, but at heart he would be what he was born and bred into. That he could not change. Hence Allah, according to the Qur'an, has condemned these people at birth. Something the Qur'an denies is true. Alyisa Believe me, my line is certainly not Jewish propaganda. This would be a nightmare for them. What the Barak administration wanted was a final settlement. That is not what I advocated here. I advocated that the Palestinians march on their objectives and conduct sit ins, block roads and so forth. When the IDF reacted to peaceful protest with heavy hands (as they inevitably would be forced to do) the Israeli people would evenually put enough pressure on their government to give the Palestinians some leverage. You are flat out wrong about Arab unity being able to "liberate" the Palestinians. The Arabs do not have the military capabiliity. Furthermore, should a massive war come that involved all the Arab states and the Israelis felt too pressured they would most assuredly resort to use of nuclear weapons. Probably tactical Nukes to destroy Arab military formations but possibly strategic weapons to destroy Arab capitals. This would earn the worlds approbation, but that wouldn't help the Arabs much. Do you really think that the Egyptians are going to risk Cairo for the Palestinians??? Or do the Saudis plan to put Riyadh on the chopping block for a Palstinian state?? No, they don't. So forget it. The Arabs and specifically the Palestinians can not win this through military means. Also, remember, the Arabs need the west more than the west needs the Arabs. In 20-30 years oil is going to move to the back burner as the primary energy supply in the world. When that day comes, the Arabian Peninsula will have nothing to export. The Arab leaders who are developing ties with the West are thinking toward the future. The Palestinians are never going to see a total resolution to their grievances. They will have to make some compromises. Time is not on their side. The more time that goes by in a state of conflict, the more likely the Palestinians will lose yet more land and find their economic situation yet more untenable. But if they want to put true pressure on the Israelis, they need to learn how to protest using highly effective peaceful means. Violent means will not succeed. I've been in the analysis business for 16 years. This is as obvious as the nose on your face. Remember, war is the extension of politics by other means. If a military solution could resolve the problem, that would be one thing. But that's just not a realistic solution. The Palestinian leadership needs to analyze what will work and what will not. Your solution will not work, it will only strengthen Israeli resolve. Also, keep this in the back of your mind. The Israelis have no where to go. They will fight with all resources at their disposal. The global community (not just America, but China, Russia, Europe, Japan, etc.) are not going to allow Israel to cease to exist as a state. The Arab community can not ignore global opinion. The Palestinians have a lot of world sympathy, because they are really the victimes here. But they do much to minimze the impacts of that sympathy when they riot. I have thought this problem through systematically. As I have told you guys many times, I don't have a dog in this fight. Frankly I don't care if the Palestinians and Israelis kill each other off completely. I don't like Palestinians or Jews culturally speaking. I think they're both dorks. I'm just laying out reality for you folks. If the Palestinians keep on their current course, there will just be a lot of dead Paletstinians with no gain. The Israelis would rather fight 100 years than compromise under threat of force. Their history prohibits that course.
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 05:07 am hehehehehehe. you really made me laugh, mad mac. you are playing your old trick again (by blaming Allah for what people do to themselves). ;-) "Asad You know, something just occurred to me. You earlier chastised the Jews for considering themselves to be chosen people, but at the same time the Qur'an chastizes them merely for being Jews." no, the jews have fallen from grace. they caused themselves to loose the title of chosen people by transgressing again and again. the Qur'an and their books are clear about this. they were (and still are) a nation of corrupters. "...and struck upon them were abasement and poverty. and *they drew on themselves wrath from Allah.* this, because they were ever disbelieving in the signs of Allah and *slaying the prophets unjustly.* this, because they disobeyed and were ever transgressing" the Qur'an: 2:61. the islraelites are a race, a nation, a people, a huge family, the sons of particular porgenitor, conscious and proud of their ligh lineage. the jews are also a religious comunity in particular tenets, member of a certain faith. when speaking of the religious beliefs and practices of the hebrews and those who had adopted their faith, the Qura'n uses the term "jews" and calls them jews. when alluding to their history and their national traits, the qura'n however keeps mentioning and reffering to them as "the children of israel". they became a purely religious community. some are judaised. there were arab tribes made isralite by conversion. most arab jews, like the jews of abyssinia, seem not to have genuine children of israel in them, but native converts to judaism. their status as a chosen people ended when they have fallen from grace, but with their centuries old record of crime and corruption, depravity and rebellion are debarred from Allah's All-embracing grace and mercy all together---yes there were some of them who did always the right things (those who followed the prophets of Allah). salvation however is not confined to any particular race or nationality as the curse is not confined to any particular race or nationality. in the Qur'an, however, there are many verses indicative of Allah's extreme solicitude for mankind in general, but for the children of israel in particular. Allah favoured the children of israel and preferred them above all the nations (2:47). the children of israel is the national designation of the jews. israel was the name borne by their ancestor yacquub, the father of the twelve tribes, a son of isxaaq and a grandson of ibrahim. the nation of priests, patriarchs and prophets, perhaps the most remarkable people in ancient history, blessed of their Lord, always great in the realm of religion and faith and mighty and glorious for long periods in the affairs of the world. many of them had migrated in to thousands places (for example to madiina---long before the advent of muhammad) and too many other places in the world. now what did the preference of the israelites consisted in? was it their commerce, their adventures, their martial glory, their achievements in art, or their eminence in science? nothing of the sort. their singular glory and peculiar excellence, as a race, lay in their special mission---their tenacious, pure and absolute MONOTHEISM. in fact, the only living monotheism that the world knew before the advent of islam was theirs. the hebrews alone of all semitic people reached the stage of pure monotheism, through the teachings of their prophets---as long as a man refused allegiance to other gods, he was looked upon a jew; whoever denies the existence of other gods is called a jew. there was no need of proofs to establish it; it was the leading tenet of faith, but the jews presumed too much on their ancestral merit and stood badly in need of a powerful reminder (prophets of their own). their pride and their most striking tendency was to fall back upon national privilege as a substitute for real reformation of life (religious teachings by their prophets). when the jews saw their multitudes, they were filled with envy, pride. they envied muuse and ciise and many of their prophets (they even killed some of them prophets that Allah sent to them). most of them became disbelievers and moved with envy and took unto their leaders (their rabbis) and certain lewd acts (non-towxiid acts). but they did not know that the grace that was given to them was because of the merits of their ancestors--- monotheism, their piety of following their prophets. when they did not uphold this, hell broke loose on them, then they drew wrath (curse) from Allah. how many years did they wonder in the wilderness? there own books say about the jews this: 'they mocked the messangers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy(2 Ch. 36:16) 'wherefore, will ye plead with me? ye have all transgressed against me, saith the Lord..your own sword has devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion (Je. 2:29-30). 'they were disobedient and rebelled against thee, and cast the law behind their backs, and slew they prophets(Ne 9:26)'...ye are the childern of them which killed the prophets....ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ;-) because of this and many other things, in their habitual corruption, crookedness and insolence, they got and will get what they deserve(ed). 'frequently, too, the israelistes confounded the worship of YHWH with the worship of BAAL'. they were chosen people and the favor Allah has given to them by bringing prophets after prophets amoung themselves, but they prefered instead cult worship. the cults of other deities were deeply rooted in the heart of israelish people and they do not appear to have been thoroughly suppressed until after the return from the babylonion exile. through mysticism and magic many polytheistic ideas and customs again found their way among the hebrewlites. 'ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord, your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice. ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?...i know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which i have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to angry through the work of your hands'(31:27-29) ;-)
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 05:27 am I cannot believe that the concept of "there is no alternative".. is supposed to be a basis for Palistinian peace. Isreal, will never have peace, basically becasue the Muslims have a fundermentally difference in thought process, our aim is not the preservation, extention and facilitation of this life, therefore whether you nuke Saudi, or Jordan or wherever, muslims are not really overly concerned.(our leaders maybe) That method of combat will only result ultimately also in the West's destruction. You think Pakistan is gonna sit and watch while someone is bombing Mecca?.You know that if you keep on pushing with excessive force it will drive muslims togther, tell me, how you gonna unite against 1.2 billion people, within and external to your borders?, 16 years of observation is on your side..comeon tell me. Secondly, i don't think China will take kindly to this nice little club of friends you have built up nuking folk. peacful protest is the elites way of saying we are not ready to give up power, untill some more of you die..and then.. guess what.. We have after grave deliberations, it was not easy(but it gave us a chance to regroup and think about what we can do if you get violent)decided against giving you what you want
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 08:14 am MAD MAC Hitler wasn't as ruthless as "FIRCAUN". And the modern day latest ruthless ppl like Clinton and the western world who are making their mission to deteriorate the Moslems...We don't see what's going on coz of the cliches that surround the situations. It is OK these dayz....coz ppl are busy as they overlook the consequences
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 12:05 am OK, let me start with Asad. You write the "Jews" have fallen from grace, as if they were monolithic. As if one Jew is the same as the next. This is in direct contradiction to what the Qur'an says about individual assessment. In short, the Qur'an says on the one hand that ultimately judgement is Allahs, then on the other it advises Muslims to disregard and distrust all who are not Muslim. Now for Common. What I am saying is that the Palestinians CAN NOT WIN THROUGH VIOLENT CONFRONTATION. They can die. If they truly believe that will send them to paradise, the IDF will be happy to help get them there. But they can not prosecute a successful military solution. You will remember that peceful protest is what brought the passage of the civil rights act in 1964. Peaceful protest is what brought victory to Mahatma Ghandi. There are times when violent protest can not succeed. Each situation requires analysis of the problem. If you want to unite the Israelis, if you want to strengthen the will of the IDF, then continue to raise the level of violence. I mean, how do you expect the Israelis to respond? What do the Palestinians want to accomplish and how do they think they will accomplish it using the current methods? Walk the problem through. If a then b. Muslims are not supperior either technologically or otherwise. You are correct, Israel, if it uses nuclear weapons will earn the worlds approbation, in strong terms. Since Pakistian is unable to deliver its weapons and faces a superior nuclear arsenal from its Indian friends, Pakistian will not use nukes. Frankly the only way Israel will use them is if they think they are about to lose a military conflict. The Jews are convinced they would be slaughtered by the Muslims if they were defeated militarily (a very real possibility I might add). Hence, before that happens, if push comes to shove they will use nukes. Sure China will be pissed. So will the US. But no one is going to nuke Tel Aviv in response. It will force and end to the fight, but again, too little too late. At any rate, it won't come to that, because the Arab states that can influence the fifht can not defeat Israel militarily. Israel has the advantage in techonological capability and in interior lines of communication.The Arabs used to have a big advantage in numbers, but now that dvantage is primarily restricted to numbers of personnel. With the loss of a Soviet sponsor, they can barley field functional mechanized divisions anymore. Both Syria and Egypt are too poor to put together much. The Merkava 3 is one of the best tanks in the world, after the M1A1 and the Leopard 2A5. That is what leads me to the peaceful protest thing. In a stroke the Palestinians make all the military hardware useless. The hardware has no value if there is no will to use it. If they can come up with a peace agreement that will politically sell with the Knesset (not today, but in the future) then this could work. I think they could get restitution for lost property, I think they could get a state on the West Bank and Gaza with a capitol in East Jerusalum. I think they can reach a reasonable compromise on the stupid Jewish holy site / Mosque nonsense. And I think they could get economic incentives to allow for reasonable investment in making the new State econoically viable. But they have to play the hand dealt them. At the end of every fight with the Jews they dig for themselves a deeper hole. If a full scale war breaks out, the Jews might force the Arabs population to the East bank of the Jordan. If that happens, they will never get back across it again. Richgirl Are you single? I like rich women. Only kidding. What were you saying, I didn't exactly get your point.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 03:39 am "OK, let me start with Asad. You write the "Jews" have fallen from grace, as if they were monolithic. As if one Jew is the same as the next. This is in direct contradiction to what the Qur'an says about individual assessment. In short, the Qur'an says on the one hand that ultimately judgement is Allahs, then on the other it advises Muslims to disregard and distrust all who are not Muslim." the Qur'an is in agreement with the jews books and the non-muslim indivitual assessment about the jews, mad mac. ;-) maybe you have not read what i wrote. i said when i was speaking of the jews this: "their status as a chosen people ended when they have fallen from grace, but with their centuries old record of crime and corruption, depravity and rebellion are debarred from Allah's All-embracing grace and mercy all together---yes there were some of them who did always the right things (those who followed the prophets of Allah). salvation however is not confined to any particular race or nationality as the curse is not confined to any particular race or nationality. in the Qur'an, however, there are many verses indicative of Allah's extreme solicitude for mankind in general, but for the children of israel in particular. Allah favoured the children of israel and preferred them above all the nations (2:47). the children of israel is the national designation of the jews." ....when they did not uphold this, hell broke loose on them, then they drew wrath (curse) from Allah. how many years did they wonder in the wilderness? their own books will tell you the years. ;-). also, their own books tell you about what kind of people they are: 'they were disobedient and rebelled against thee, and cast the law behind their backs, and slew they prophets(Ne 9:26)'...ye are the childern of them which killed the prophets....ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ;-). their own books say that moses said this: "i have seen this people (the children of israel), and behold, it is a stiffnecked people"Ex 32:9). 'they mocked the messangers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy(2 Ch. 36:16) "....i know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which i have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to angry through the work of your hands'(31:27-29).
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:07 am Mad Mac, You just said the Jews have no where to go and they will not give up the Palestinian land. So what difference will it make if the Palestinians hold peacefull protests or not other than the fact that it'll be easier for the jews to kill them?
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 05:49 pm to: MAD MAC The fact is, and history proves it, real wars are not won by tanks and any advanced military equipment. As Somali saying goes; " coward is the one with too many weapons". It's won by dedicated people( Mujahidiin). Israel and it's allies know that. As a matter of fact this so-called Mid East Peace process is Israel's best hope. it's not a favor from them that they want give something to Palestinians,never!. Arafat and Mubarak and all those Arab traitors are doing more good for Israel than they are doing for Palestine. Believe it or not(fools only believe after sight),it's just matter of getting these Arab traitors out of the Mujahidiin's way and then you will see what the cowards do with these many tanks, may artilleries , many airplanes and many nuclear weapons. We don't need to have that many weapons for coward. We just get theirs, use against them and say thank you for making this nice piece.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 05:30 am Nour Man, put down the Khat and start thinking. Wars ARE won by tanks, artillery, etc. You think we won WW II because we were the good guys? I'll drop you a hint, that wasn't it. Alyisa You are correct that in most cases the Palestinians are not going to be able to effectively make land claims. Too much time has gone by. But they can be financially compensated. I have yet to see anyone other than myself on this net offer any viable alternative to what I'Ve proposed. Nour is high if he thinks the "Mujahdin" can win some sort of military victory. And none of the rest of you suggest anything other than having the Palestinians get killed.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 07:13 am "I have yet to see anyone other than myself on this net offer any viable alternative to what I'Ve proposed" mad mac, i told you before that your solution is stupid. if your solution for palestinian people is to be happy with the situation the isreali terrorists put on them for fear of them dying when they protest, then your solution is stupid. if you were standing on my neck and your solution for me is not to protest, but instead be happy with the sitution for fear of you shooting me with your gun when i kick, throw sands or stones at your face and protest, then that would not happen. i rather you shoot me than be happy with the situation you standing on my neck. "And none of the rest of you suggest anything other than having the Palestinians get killed." again, being oppressed is worst than getting killed.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 04:28 am Asad Because you say my solution is stupid doesn't make it so. Were the indians oppressed by the British? Yep. Did they resist via peaceful protest? Yep. Did it work? Yep. Where blacks in America oppressed? Yep. Did they resist via peaceful protest? Yep. Did it work? Yep. Violent protest can work under the right set of circumstances. Clearly the Indians woulc have taken the violent route, but it would have led to far more deaths than the end result achieved. In the case of the blacks in America, vilence could never have work, the blacks were outnumbered and outclassed in every way. Serious violence would have resulted in an ethnic cleansing campaign I shudder to think about. The difference between you and me is I believe the Palestinians can win for themselves their own country on terms they would find acceptable. The long run result would be an opportunity for a decent chance for their children - which is what every responsible parent should strive for. But I don't think, I know, they can not achieve this goal through violent action. Like the blacks in America they are outclassed in the military art. Justice is the weapon on their side, like it was for the American blacks. But for that weapon to play out, you have to be able to use it. Right now, the Palestinians are failing to use it. You can say my solution is stupid, but your saying it doesn'T make it so. The fact is I'm a damn good analyst. And on this point I am right on the money.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 05:19 am Mad mac you have pointed out the sore reddened issue here many times, without seeing it yourself, alas it is about right and wrong, that is what has powered all the movements that you mention. I am sure you are aware that Palistians would use peace if they felt it was a option , the inscription on the walls "what has been taken by violence can only be returned by violence"spells out their postion.The dealth toll 137 dead, all but 7 arab, shot in the upper body range spells out the jewish postion(i use jew becasue they define themselves as a race as well as a religion and a state, every and jew has a right to return to palistine), Now i see your point, i have no problem with utilizing the most effective methods of obtaining justice. like Malcolm X said "by any means neccesary", this usually means bypassing your enemy limits and doing basically what he or she is not willing to do. in this case as with most cases pertaing to the west's miliary involvement, what the enemy isn't willing to do is die, thus if you are willing to die then you have in effect made the tanks and guns more redundant than you ever could have by peacful protest, you also maintain your honour. I think where we are having a problem understanding each other is the issue of honour and dignity. Our Islamic culture refers to Honour, modern western culture refers to dignity. hourner being brought out through actions, dignity being a universal "human right", you wish to see the palistians scarifce their honour and wait for teh Isrealis to acknoweldge their dignity?. The Israeli mind is soverign in this issue, the same prinicples that applied/apply to colonialisation neo colonialisation apply here. When you realise that your life is worth the same as your oppressors life, his glare no longer freezes you. John paul sartes points out that "if violence was born this very minute then perhpas the crys for non violent protest could be heeded"The same cries for non violence were being argued for by the left in the colonial wars, tell me if we had listen would france have got out of Algeria?.. the Israeli should notice what they have taught the palistians, why would a muslim people in the middle east put swastika signs up?.. the Israelis have taught the palistains well...peace process, non violent demontsrations, it is all a waste of breath you shouldn't have too much diffuclty figuring out where we are coming from, the Army is one of the last few places,where honour really counts for somthing. So tell me brother, why would you want the palistians to exchange honour for dignitry, when the army will not?. And furthermore when the Israelis will not bestow it.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 10:43 am Common This is why. It would be effective. Remember, the Israelis identify themselves as the part of the West. A lot of their citizens have western heritage. The Israelis will not allow their Army to kill people who are not engaging in acts of violence. But they will encourage their Army to kill people who are - even children. For all the hoopla made about innocent children, those children are rioting along with the adults. They are assaulting the IDF. The IDF is going to kill them if they do this. Frankly, I'm surprised the IDF hasn't reacted with more violence. If this were the US Army the numbers of dead would be much higher. But I digress. Unlike some of the anti-colonioal wars, which hastened the inevitable in places like Algieria, this kind of fight will not be effective against the Israelis. The reason is because the Israelis are fighting for their very existence, and they know this. They can never allow themselves to bo ruled by Mulims because they would likely be killed. The history of the last 50 years is now too bitter. And since they have no where else to go you are drawing a false assumption. You think all you regard as kufaar are inherently weak because they try and avoid death. Actually this is a strength. Muslims, when they fight Western States, die in disproportianate numbers precisely because they lack caution. Anyway, Israel can not give up. The Israelis have no where else to go. So if they have to stay under a state of seige, they will. The Muslims can not overrun them. It's really as simple as that. All the Muslims can do is undermine Israeli will - and they can not do that with violence. Violence only hardens Israeli will.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 02:04 am Okay Good answer I liked the point about the kuffar being strengthed by avoiding death,possible, now we are getting somewhere. Israelis have an "us and them" mentality, which you point out,so do we on the whole as a muslim ummah, (although this has been undermined) and i agree they are fighting for their existance, they will not and have no intention letting palistians have "dignity" they may loosen the noose around their neck, that may seem like freedom when you have been strangled for so long, but the Israelis cannot rule the palistians justly they are paralysied by fear,your point about violence ahrding Israeli will is naive, they are terrorized buy it,. the mroe grotesque they become, the more jittery, the more mistakes they will make, its a vicoius circle, they can't sleep they can't eat for fear of the arab hordes who would cut their throats . Repression a curiously popular political strategy has never worked on a long term scale if you take a relatively short time scale, say a small amount like even 100 years, howver if you think Violence will only harden israeli will, what will it do to the muslims, we have been upset i tell ya.What do you think would happen, if we had somone to mobilsie us?. simialry i agree with you, the Arabs if successful would maybe, maybe slaughter the jews given their current mental condition and honestly if they didn't then the jews would take advantage of this and trya and slaughter them with regards to your twisted indoctrnated children theis, save the drama for a western auidence,again you forget to tell me who taught them this HATE?... and then we speak of a ceasefire like there is a full scale war?, wouldn't a ceasestone/ceasefire be more accurate. Isreal is allowing its army to kill unarmed children as young as 5 or 6..and not once or twice but wholsale, who on earth is going to beleif that they have any concern for palestians?and will respect candle light vigils on sabbath days?. yeah right... where is that favourite israeli weapon.. the oozie, let me mow down sum palistians. The funny thing is that you tell asad that just becasue he says your arguement is stupid, doesn't make it so. Just becasue you say the muslims cannot defeat Israel doesn't make it so, if i agree.. ahhh then thats what makes it so.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 08:18 am "Because you say my solution is stupid doesn't make it so." well, i know that you stupid solution will not help the palestinian people. in fact, it helps the israeli terrorists. ;-) "Were the indians oppressed by the British? Yep. Did they resist via peaceful protest? Yep. Did it work? Yep. Where blacks in America oppressed? Yep. Did they resist via peaceful protest? Yep. Did it work? Yep." will the israeli terrorists will give back what they took from the innocent palestinian people if the palestinian people sing the song 'we shall over come'? i do not think so. ;-) "The difference between you and me is I believe the Palestinians can win for themselves their own country on terms they would find acceptable. The long run result would be an opportunity for a decent chance for their children - which is what every responsible parent should strive for.But I don't think, I know, they can not achieve this goal through violent action. " However, their own theirs that are acceptable is not acceptable to the oppressors. Oppressors are not saying that they will leave and give up the homelands they robbed. your solution is stupid because you want them to forget what they lost and never claim back, but accept what they are given by the oppressors. to accept this to help the oppressors and give them happiness. i do not think this will happen. there will not be peace in that area as long as the oppressors are wicked. ;-) "Like the blacks in America they are outclassed in the military art. Justice is the weapon on their side, like it was for the American blacks" the truth is that as far as the martin king and his people were singing 'we shall over come', the white racist were laughing and having good times, but when malcom x showed up and said 'by any means nessarccry', the whites got scared and start pleasing martin king. ;-). the whites did not want this malcom x to wake up the masses of blacks. the motto, no justice, no peace, works, mad mac. do you think lots of african countires song the song 'we shall over come' in order to get independant from the british? ;-)
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 11:35 am Your interpretation of the American Civil rights movement is laughable. Martin Luther King and the peaceful resistance is what won the average American over to the black cause and undermined Malcom X. Mionorities, when they resist majorities who control all aspects of government and violent means, are sure to meet an untimely demise. Had the black panthers or Malcom X been anything more than low grade criminals they would have been arrested or killed so fast it would make your head swim. Imagine that the Bantu of Somalia decided to rise up with weapons (during the Siad Barre regime for example, or during the democratic regime that preceeded it) and resist their Somali oppressors. What do you think the Somalis would have done? Common 100 years is a long time. If you are born today and it takes 100 years to sort this out your whole life was wasted on this nonesense. If I am a father (and whoops, I am) I would want my son to have the best possible chance at a decent life. Why do you think those kids throw stones? I'll tell you why, because their parents encourage them too. How many of those parents do you think are saying "Mohamed, get back in here, you're not going out on those streets today. You go to school and you come home until this is over!"? Damn few. They're all encouraging their kids which is completely irresponsible. You want to resist as an adult, OK you can appreciate the risk. To send a 10 year old kid out on the streets when you know he could get shot is crazy. When I was in Somalia Haber Gedir would have crowds of women and children mixed with gunmen. Then when women and children got shot they would complain about brutality. It was crazy. Even if your cause is just you don't send kids out to fight in it. Now as for the terrorized part, you overstate your case. But let's assume your right. If the Israelis feel terrorized, what are they likely to do? Given their history with the holocaust, do you think they're likely to capitulate and hope the Palestinians treat them mindly? Or do you think it's more likely that they would want to remove the terrorist threat by killing anything and everything that might cause them a problem? How can you possibly see violence achieving a favorable result for the Palestinians? In black and white terms, how do you see this situation unfolding that gives a positive end state for the Palestinians - and I mean in the here and now, not 150 years from now, when it doesn't do any of them any good.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 01:54 pm "Your interpretation of the American Civil rights movement is laughable. Martin Luther King and the peaceful resistance is what won the average American over to the black cause and undermined Malcom X. Mionorities, when they resist majorities who control all aspects of government and violent means, are sure to meet an untimely demise." well, it was always convience for the whites to deny and misinterprete the cause of the blacks. ;-) the history of black resistances were not only the likes of martin l king, mad mac. turn the other cheek mentality is not what saved the blacks from white racists. if the blacks continue to sing that song, they would be still singing these and be wrost places. there were other movements (other than martin's turn the other cheek of the so called resistance) movements which had useful radical ideologies for the blacks. molcom's militant voice was something whites feared the most. ;-). by any means necessary was a powerful message, a message which whites heard and responded to better than to the message 'we shall over come'. ;-) molcom really was a shocking and he uplifted many sleeping blacks. during the 1960's malcom's stand against white racists gained in popularity in opposition to "elite" civil rights leaders like martin which laid the basis for the black liberation movement that coalesced with the war cry of "black power" in 1966. self-defence preached by molcom was more reliastice than "turn the other cheek" preached by martin. malcom said concerning non-violence adopted by martin these: "it is crimminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutel attacks.----you can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.----I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment.---There is nothing in our book, the Qoran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. that’s a good religion.---If it is wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it is wrong for America to draft us, and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country.---as I see the law of justice, it says as you sow, so shall you reap. The white man has reveled as the rope snapped black men's necks. He has reveled around the lynching fire. Another thing to think of--in the 20th Century, the Christian Church has given us two heresies: fascism and communism. Where did fascism start? Where's the second-largest Communist party outside of Russia? The answer to both is Italy. Where is the Vatican? But let's not forget the Jew. Anybody that gives even a just criticism of the Jew is instantly labeled anti-Semite. The Jew cries louder than anybody else if anybody criticizes him. You can tell the truth about any minority in America, but make a true observation about the Jew, and if it doesn't pat him on the back, then he uses his grip on the news media to label you anti-Semite. Let me say just a word about the Jew and the black man. The Jew is always anxious to advise the black man. But they never advise him how to solve his problem the way the Jews solved their problem. The Jew never went sitting-in and crawling-in and sliding-in and freedom-riding, like he teaches and helps Negroes to do. The Jews stood up, and stood together, and they used their ultimate power, the economic weapon. The Jews pooled their money and bought the hotels that barred them. They bought Atlantic City and Miami Beach and anything else they wanted. Who owns Hollywood? Who runs the garment industry, the largest industry in New York City? But the Jew that's advising the Negro joins the NAACP, CORE, the Urban League, and others. With money donations, the Jew gains control, then he sends the black man doing all this wading-in, boring-in, even burying-in--everything but buying-in. Never shows him how to set up factories and hotels. Never advises him how to own what he wants. No, when there's something worth owning, the Jew's got it. Walk up and down in any Negro ghetto in America. Ninety percent of the worthwhile businesses you see are Jew-owned. Every night they take the money out. This helps the black man's community stay a ghetto.--- A man who tosses worms in the river isn't necessarily a friend of the fish. All the fish who take him for a friend, who think the worm's got no hook in it, usually end up in the frying pan. All these things dangled before us by the white liberal posing as a friend and benefactor have turned out to be nothing but bait to make us think we're making progress. The Supreme Court decision has never been enforced. Desegregation has never taken place. The promises have never been fulfilled. We have received only tokens, substitutes, trickery and deceit.----the white man must finally realize that he's the one who has committed the crimes that have produced the miserable condition that our people are in. He can't hide this guilt by reviling us today because we answer his criminal acts--past and present--with extreme and uncompromising resentment. He cannot hide his guilt by accusing us, his victims, of being racists, extremists and black supremacists. The white man must realize that the sins of the fathers are about to be visited upon the heads of the children who have continued those sins, only in more sophisticated ways.". when malcom spoke whites used to pee in their bants and got scared, so they had to please martin and give little by little what he wanted. without malcom, martin would not have gotten anything. ;-)
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 10:45 pm Your high. Your interpretation of history is obviously the result of shoddy research. First we take point A: If it's evil it comes from the west. If it's good it comes from Islam (or if your black American non-Musim, it comes from Africa). What a simple world you live in. Too bad that's all B.S. Point B: White people (or non-Muslims) are all afraid of Muslims because Muslims are either ferocious, fearless, know the truth, etc. Knowing that someone poses a threat and being prepared to react to that threat don't constitute fear. White America of 1960 had nothing to fear from Black America. The Blacks constituted a small minority, like the Bantu of Somalia do. They could cause trouble, but it could quickly be brought under control. What appealed to white America was when peaceful demonstration was met with force. That's when people like my parents said to themselves "what's going on here?" That's when people like my father said "You know, we got a problem when US citizens can't have a peaceful demonstration." But when there were riots and violent actions, no sympathy. You don't garner sympathy through violence. And sympathy is what you need to generate support from a majority population. Back to the subject of fear. I don't fear Muslims. I don't fear anyone. Repeatedly I've gone into room full of hostile Somalis and argued with them. I'm not afraid of them or any other Muslim. You think my compatriots are afraid of anyone? Allow me to remind you of a quote by SGT Randy Ramaglia. He was shot in the shoulder during the battle of 3/4 October. Didn't slow him down though. He fought on. When he was finally MEDEVACed the medic said to him "Man, I feel sorry for you all." Ramaglia shot back "You should feel sorry for them, cause we whipped ass!" Look at the speech used here by Malcom X. Full of us against them, full of self-righteousness. Full of loathing for everyone and everything that doesn't embrace his values. We have the pathetic Uncle Toms, the trecherous, murderous whites, and the filthy Jews. He left out the Asians and what scum they are, but plenty of his ilk have picked up the chant. Now I will use violence, get paid to use violence, under the right set of circumstances. But I don't always resort to violence. In Haiti I had several occassions when I could have killed men and it would have been within the rules. But there were other ways to difuse the situation. Same in Somalia. I didn't shoot every Haber Gedir who threw a rock at (oppressed) me, even though I was working for their benefit (they were too stupid to figure this out). Regardless of what you would like to think, peaceful protest in the face of brutality can diffuse the situation and bring about positive change. And regardless of your warped viewpoint, that's what happened in America. I noticed you did not bother to explain how using your solution the Palestinians will be able to achieve their objectives. You just howl about justice. In the real world, real political leaders need to achieve results. Getting your constituents heads blown off is not achieving results. Lastly, don't be a moron. The Pakistanis have not yet fielded a ballistic missile with the range to reach Israel. It's not even on their short term agenda. They are trying to field missiles that will reach the depths of the country they built the nukes to fight with - India. This is open source information. Do a little homework and you'll confirm what I just said. Iran is much further along than Pakistan on this development, but since Iran and Pakistan aren't best friends they don't share their capabilities in this arena. Still, I don't doubt the Pakis could deploy a mobile nuclear capable missle to Syria if the Syrians didn't mind them using their territory for such an attack (and the retribution that would come from it). Boy would the Muslims be pissed if they couldn't go to Mecca anymore because it wasn't there.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 07:42 am "If it's evil it comes from the west. If it's good it comes from Islam" there are people in the west and in any part of the world who do evil. muslims do evil, christians do evil and the jewish people do evil. when the muslims are doing evil, they are not folowing islam, get it, mad mac? ;-). "If it is wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it is wrong for America to draft us, and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country.---as I see the law of justice, it says as you sow, so shall you reap. The white man has reveled as the rope snapped black men's necks. He has reveled around the lynching fire. Another thing to think of--in the 20th Century, the Christian Church has given us two heresies: fascism and communism. Where did fascism start? Where's the second-largest Communist party outside of Russia? The answer to both is Italy. Where is the Vatican?" "or if your black American non-Musim, it comes from Africa" lol "What a simple world you live in. Too bad that's all B.S." it's your B.S, not mine. ;-) "Point B: White people (or non-Muslims) are all afraid of Muslims because Muslims are either ferocious, fearless, know the truth, etc. Knowing that someone poses a threat and being prepared to react to that threat don't constitute fear." " lol. that is your saying. ;-). "Back to the subject of fear. I don't fear Muslims. I don't fear anyone." do you think i fear you, mad mac? ;-) "Look at the speech used here by Malcom X. Full of us against them, full of self-righteousness. Full of loathing for everyone and everything that doesn't embrace his values. We have the pathetic Uncle Toms, the trecherous, murderous whites, and the filthy Jews." malcom said: "I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment.---There is nothing in our book, the Qoran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. that’s a good religion" "What appealed to white America was when peaceful demonstration was met with force. That's when people like my parents said to themselves "what's going on here?" That's when people like my father said "You know, we got a problem when US citizens can't have a peaceful demonstration." But when there were riots and violent actions, no sympathy. You don't garner sympathy through violence. And sympathy is what you need to generate support from a majority population." whites are so nice that they felt sorry for the blacks and africans because they didn't want their children asking questions. how nice that their children's sypathy made the blacks free. ;-). it was always the whites and europeans who gave the blacks and africans their freedom without voilance and freedom fighters doing anything. every freedom that the whites gave to the blacks and african were the result of blacks singing "we shall over come". how nice of the whites. it was wrong for malcom x to have said "it is crimminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutel attacks.----you can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom". ;-) "Lastly, don't be a moron." lol. "The Pakistanis have not yet fielded a ballistic missile with the range to reach Israel. It's not even on their short term agenda " that is not true. you do not know. do you think they are going to tell you what they can or can not? "Do a little homework and you'll confirm what I just said" can you show us the homework you have done if you are not lying, mad mac? ;-) "Boy would the Muslims be pissed if they couldn't go to Mecca anymore because it wasn't there." the mecca is in the protection of Allah. why do not the non-muslims try to go in mecca if they can. if mecca was not there anymore, that means then the world will come to an end, right? can the non-muslims kill all the muslims? ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:31 am Can the non-Muslims kill all the Muslims? I don't think so. I don't think you can kill an idea. Sometimes ideas wax an wane, but you can't kill them. That is why Christianity and Judaism and Islam are here to stay. Along with Hinduism and Bhudism and God knows what else. Even bad ideas, like communism, have a way of hanging on. Furthermore, I don't think Muslims should be killed. I think we need a policy of detente with Islam. I think we need to continue to work with Muslim moderates to work out a solution to the Israeli problem. Contrary to you I think this is possible and if a solution could be reached it would remove a major thorn between Islam and the West. Believe whatever you want about Pakistan. I don't care. Their basic capabilities, like Indias, are common knowledge. You think they have some sort of secret weapon, go ahead and believe it. But if you can't show it to me, this proves you are lying. Malcom X says he believes in the brotherhood of men, and then goes on to dismiss all non-black men (well, he doesn't mention Arabs) as evil. Who are we kidding here. It wasn't until he broke with that Islamic freak (I can't remember his name) that he moderated his views. Then of course, his Muslim brothers killed him. The fate of blacks in America was in white hands. Are you denying this?????? Are you now telling me what I thought when I was growing up as well???? Are you now telling me what my second grade teacher told me when I was a kid about race relations? Where you in America then???? Cause I was. That period is when I was going to school. I remember that subject well. Mecca can be long gone and the world still standing. There's nothing special about Mecca, it's just another city. If Mecca were destroyed, would this mean that the Qur'an is not true. Does the Qur'an say that Mecca is under devine protection? What if Mecca were conquored by a foreign (non-Muslim) Army? Lastly, there is no reason for you to fear me. Why would you fear me. My point is that the west is not living in perpetual fear of Muslims.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:38 am The nation of islam muslim? Elijah mohamed the door to door salesman "Islamic"? Muslim moderate= muslims like Galool? Mecca dies, you die.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:32 am "Can the non-Muslims kill all the Muslims? I don't think so. I don't think you can kill an idea. Sometimes ideas wax an wane, but you can't kill them." that is right. islamic ideas (beliefs) can not be killed no matter how the non-muslims try it. ;-) "Furthermore, I don't think Muslims should be killed" lol "I think we need a policy of detente with Islam." well, as i said islamic ideas (beliefs) can not be killed---no matter how the non-muslims try it. ;-) "I think we need to continue to work with Muslim moderates to work out a solution to the Israeli problem.Contrary to you I think this is possible and if a solution could be reached it would remove a major thorn between Islam and the West." i do not think there should be compromise in islam. the only way the palestinian muslims will work with the israeli terrorists is when the israelis stop the oppression. otherwise, no justice, no peace. ;-) "Believe whatever you want about Pakistan. I don't care. Their basic capabilities, like Indias, are common knowledge. You think they have some sort of secret weapon, go ahead and believe it. But if you can't show it to me, this proves you are lying." i thought so. ;-). i just wanted to see the homework you said you did, but again, you are lying. ;-) "Malcom X says he believes in the brotherhood of men, and then goes on to dismiss all non-black men (well, he doesn't mention Arabs) as evil." i agree what he said. ""I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment.---There is nothing in our book, the Qoran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. that’s a good religion" "Who are we kidding here" no one. ;-) "It wasn't until he broke with that Islamic freak (I can't remember his name) that he moderated his views. Then of course, his Muslim brothers killed him." well, i've never been in the nation of islam (which i think has many non islamic teaching in it), but i believe the statment make by malcom up there. ;-) "The fate of blacks in America was in white hands. Are you denying this??" yes, their faith was in the hand of themselves. if they continue to song the song 'we shall over come', i believe they will be still be where they were. they malcom and others like him take things into their hands, that is when the white racists got scared and heard. if you do not respect and continue to sign, no one is going to respect you. " Are you now telling me what I thought when I was growing up as well???? Are you now telling me what my second grade teacher told me when I was a kid about race relations? Where you in America then???? Cause I was. That period is when I was going to school. I remember that subject well." you were told wrong. you were told the history whites want you to believe. ;-) "Mecca can be long gone and the world still standing" lol "There's nothing special about Mecca, it's just another city" that is stupid. ;-). did you say youself "Boy would the Muslims be pissed if they couldn't go to Mecca anymore because it wasn't there." ? "If Mecca were destroyed" lol. if mecca were destroyed, then there would not be america. ;-) "would this mean that the Qur'an is not true." is this your wishful thinking? ;-) "Does the Qur'an say that Mecca is under devine protection? What if Mecca were conquored by a foreign (non-Muslim) Army?" yes, macca is under divine protection. did you read the surah in the Qur'an called elephant and what happened to the non-muslim foreign army who try to destroy it? ;-) "Lastly, there is no reason for you to fear me." i have no reason, because i'm not. ;-) "Why would you fear me." why would you fear a muslim like me? ;-) "My point is that the west is not living in perpetual fear of Muslims." do you think i'm afraid of the west? ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 05:55 pm "Does the Qur'an say that Mecca is under devine protection? yes, macca is under divine protection. did you read the surah in the Qur'an called the elephant and what happened to the non-muslim foreign army who tried to destroy it? ;-) "What if Mecca were conquored by a foreign (non-Muslim) Army?" this would not happen. the Qu'ranic verses read this way: "Has thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the fellows of the elephant. Did He not set their stratagem at naught. And He sent against them birds in flocks. They hurled upon them clay stones. Then He rendered them as stubble devoured". ---"About the fifty days before the birth of the prophet, abraha, the abyssinian viceroy of yemen, christian by religion, proceeded against makka, with the object of destroying the ka'ba. he had with him elephants and large army. the makkans in their despondency retried to the neighbouring hills, leaving the Lord of the ka'ba to protect it. suddenly a large flock o birds, like swallows, come flying from the sea-coast and pelted the invading army with stones. panic-sticken they made a hansty retreat in disorder and dismay, and there was an outbreak of smallpox in the camp. scattered among the valley, and forsaken by their guides, everyone of these perished, including the abraha himself, and the holy ka'ba was miraculously saved from destruction. the news that the ka'ba had been protected by divine intervention must have spread far and wide and greatly enhanced the sanctity of the shrine and the prestige of the ka'ba."---
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:06 pm OK, so if Mecca were either destroyed or occupied by a foreign (non-Muslim) army, then would the belief in Islam come apart at the seams? Would this prove the Qur'an is flawed, at least in part? I mean, no one has a reason right now to conquor Mecca (no non-Muslims anyway). But if it did happen would Musilms be pissed off, or would they lose their faith since their book has been proven wrong??? I'm just curious on this point. OK, you agree with one point of contention that Malcom X raises. That's nice. You have dismissed non-violent protest because you think it's unislamic. Since Islam doesn't teach turn the other cheek, you think to do so is violating the Qur'an. Therefore whenever this form of protest works (as it did in India and America) you look for a way to explain it away. I understand now. If something doesn't fit into Qur'anic taching it must be wrong - simple as that. Hence whatever doesn't fit is explained away. I'm sure you'll now tell me that the real reason the British left India wasn't because of Mahatma Ghandi, it was the Muslim freedom fighters who drove them out. Of course, how did I miss that? Common You say if Mecca dies I die. Does this mean if Mecca is destroyed the whole world is destroyed? Or does this mean that if Mecca is destroyed Muslims would be looking for a way to destroy the west. What if the west wasn't the perpetrator?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 03:39 am "OK, so if Mecca were either destroyed or occupied by a foreign (non-Muslim) army," i told you that this would not happen. it is protected. ;-) "then would the belief in Islam come apart at the seams?" it has never and it will never happen, eventhough the kufar love to dream about it. ;-) "Would this prove the Qur'an is flawed, at least in part?" well, the kufars and hypocrites tried so hard to find any flowed in the Qur'an, but to their agony in defeat, they were/are helpless. ;-). "I mean, no one has a reason right now to conquor Mecca (no non-Muslims anyway)." that is because it's they know it's protected. ;-) "But if it did happen" it would not happen. ;-) "would Musilms be pissed off" we will have to find out about that. ;-) "or would they lose their faith since their book has been proven wrong???" that is your wishful thinking. when did the book has been proven wrong? ;-) "OK, you agree with one point of contention that Malcom X raises. That's nice." and what is that point? "You have dismissed non-violent protest because you think it's unislamic." i did no such thing. i've been telling you that what you think is voilent is self-defence. self-defence is good. war to stop war is good and it is allowed. you do not go to war, because you are afraid of dying. ;-) "Since Islam doesn't teach turn the other cheek, you think to do so is violating the Qur'an." no, there are times when you can turn the other cheek and that is okay and allowed, but there are times where when you do not do tooth for tooth and eye for eye, it becomes foolish tactic. ;-) "Therefore whenever this form of protest works (as it did in India and America) you look for a way to explain it away. I understand now." in so many parts in africa, the africans didn't sing "we shall over come". there were freedom fighters who were always trying to kick out the colonaizers and they succeeded. ;-) "I understand now. If something doesn't fit into Qur'anic taching it must be wrong - simple as that. Hence whatever doesn't fit is explained away." you understood wrong as i explained up there. ;-) "I'm sure you'll now tell me that the real reason the British left India wasn't because of Mahatma Ghandi, it was the Muslim freedom fighters who drove them out. Of course, how did I miss that?" no, i'm telling you that it was not only ghadi's stand against the british. there were other major blows and killing done to the british by the indian militants and freedom fighters that was at work. let me ask you this, did british left africa because africans and americans adopted gandi's way? ;-). who said "give me death or give me liberty"? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 07:20 am MAD hypothesis B.. and i would imagine the west would be the perpetrator, which ever form it appeared under, the muslims would be too blame for it, who ever the perpertrator was. But look at the fuss over jeurslaim..and that is only our third holiest city, look what happend when Christaindom wanted to liberate it.. you killed every muslim in sight.. the crusades..Ya allah those people were wrong, tell me what justified that movement,their military might, nope they weren't stronger than the muslims really?.. are we not more justified in having a simlir movement?.. we ruled the holy land way cooler than the Jews or Christains ever have.and why if the balances of military power have shifted in the past..should these remain static?. the economic reality has changed the political reality has changed..and arguable..a nd bwoy could i pull it off the military reality has changed, low intensity baby. Ya Allah(swt) we muslims are asleep anyway there are American troops posted in Mecca aren't they?. and they have a Mcdonalds in Mecca, Ya Allah(swt) this sacred place where you cannot uproot a tree..and we have a Mcdonalds there?. the suadi regime needs to go
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 07:50 am "there are American troops posted in Mecca aren't they?" i do not even think if the royal family wanted to invite clinton to enter mecca for visit, clinton can enter there. ;-) "and they have a Mcdonalds in Mecca. Ya Allah(swt) this sacred place where you cannot uproot a tree..and we have a Mcdonalds there?. what is wrong with having resturaents in any name in mecca? nothing, i hope. they have mcdonals in everywhere in many places in arabia and other counties, but meet is halaal, right? i can sell rice from china in mecca and that is not like destorying the sacred place of ka'ba, is it? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 07:53 am "there are American troops posted in Mecca aren't they?" i do not even think if the royal family wanted to invite clinton to enter mecca for visit, clinton can enter there. ;-). unless, clinton would say "ash-hadu-an-laa-ilaaha-ila-Allah, wa-ash-hadu-ana-muhammadan-rasuulu-Allah", right? ;-). as i said, the place is protected. :-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 09:31 am There are no American troops posted in Mecca or Medina. It is strictly off limits. Even American Muslim soldiers may not go there except when on leave and stationed outside of Saudi Arabia. We could occupy Mecca in a New York minute. Don't deceive yourselves. There is no place the 800 pound guerilla can not go. We do not want to go there - there is no reason to go there. Would just upset the apple cart without a purpose. Even if the Iraqis occupied Mecca in a bold military stroke, we would not liberate it. The Egyptians or someone else like that would take the city. We would take other areas. At most we would provide air support to a Muslim operation. My opinion only, of course. The Iraqis couldn't get there in a million years. But the Israelis probably could. They took a page right out of Guderians book. They are masters of the bold armored strike. But again, no motivation. just asking for trouble whent hey have plenty already. But Asad, you did not answer the question. Would it be option A or Option B - if it did happen? Common As for low intensity, that is a good method for wearing someone down. With modern technology it's less effective in the desert. But that would not prevent someone from occupying a city. It would be a way to try and evict someone from one. Asad When would you envision peaceful protest as a way of resistance to foreign occupation pr repression?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:16 am Asad. Mcdonalds a resturant?. Ya Allah. do not get me started, you'll find out why mad mac thinks i am crazy, lunny etc. Take it back sahib! <smile>
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:00 pm Okay i couldn't wait any longer! Mcdonalds is a Multi national comapny, with a turnover of more than any african country it has a army of lawyers and politicans to protect it.I agree with mad on this one, do you they really need to occupy Mecca militarily?. did the CEO of Mscdonad,s say i bear witness that there is no God and Mohamed (pbuh) is his messenger. what is the difference bewtween Mcdonalds and England?.. or America," halal" meat? thats it?. It devours interest ,which is haraam, do you know wjhat interest does, Brazil is uprooting trees the size of england every year to pay interest. YA Allah this is wrong(swt) it exploits its work force if i worked for one day for mcdonalds i would earn them the amount they would pay me for a week, the rest of the week i am earning surplus profit for them,which they do not compensate me for this is extortion-which is haraam, it sells things which are of no value,(those little things in the happy meals)- which is haraam,it throws away food and forbides its workers to take the food home or if they give food that was destined for the bin to a begger they will be sacked (recent case in france)-this is haraam. Ya Allah this is not a resturant, so what if the food is "halal", if the money they make the food with is not halal, how can it be halal for us to eat it?and how can it be halal for it to hang its golden arches in Mecca?, when it disrespects everything Islam stands for..and then says but hey the food is Halal?. Does it allow its muslims workers to pray in non-muslims countries?. Does it even give them time to break their fast?..does it let women who hijab work?, does providing "halaal" food mean that much to you?.Those minimum things it doesn't even do out of respect for humanity, let alone Allah's laws , it obeys profit only, money only, yet you see this as Halal.It is not a resuarnat, resturants are not involved in these activities, resurants are invloved in providng food for customersYa Allah.(swt) I agree with Sheik Hamza Yusef on this one , you should see his lectures on it, he breaks down and cries when he speaks of it. You cannot uproot a tree, yet you can do all that? maybe you hope there is nothing wrong, but boy there is a lot wrong.
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:09 pm "Mcdonalds a resturant?" yeah, fast food resturuant. you can eat it inside and drive through. ;-) "We could occupy Mecca in a New York minute. Don't deceive yourselves." lol. wishful thinking, uh? ;-). we have heard what happened to axaabul fiil, we don't want to hear asxaabul fool. ;-) "There is no place the 800 pound guerilla can not go." can the united states of american army go to china? :-) "We do not want to go there - there is no reason to go there. Would just upset the apple cart without a purpose." lol "Even if the Iraqis occupied Mecca in a bold military stroke, we would not liberate it." then, Allah would send american army to protect His house. :-) "The Egyptians or someone else like that would take the city. We would take other areas." american would tell them to do that, right? ;-) "At most we would provide air support to a Muslim operation. My opinion only, of course." who said your opinion does not count? ;-) "The Iraqis couldn't get there in a million years." because the royal family would call the united states of america, right? ;-) "But the Israelis probably could. They took a page right out of Guderians book. They are masters of the bold armored strike. But again, no motivation. just asking for trouble whent hey have plenty already. " your right, they would be asking trouble. i think israeli terrorists (with their wickedness) know what you do not know. they know what would happen to them. the read the Qur'an (the elaphant verse). i heard that they are planting lots of trees around very house in tel-eviv. ;-). or better yet, God would sent another pharaoh or hitler to terrorize them. ;-) "But Asad, you did not answer the question. Would it be option A or Option B - if it did happen?" none of them. ;-) "When would you envision peaceful protest as a way of resistance to foreign occupation pr repression?" when there is justice. remember, no justice, no peace. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:29 pm "yeah fast food resterant you can eat it inside and out" err..okay? perhaps this arguement is one area you are not well versed in?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 01:07 pm "perhaps this arguement is one area you are not well versed in? " i'm not well versed of anything, but i know things when i see them. ;-). the mcdonald's homepage says that "There are two *restaurants* that are located in the Holy City of Makkah that are quite unique. These *restaurants* are the only two (2) *restaurants* in the world that serves exclusively to Moslem customers. These *restaurants* are also the only two that are fully staffed with Moslem employees, from the Service Crew to the Restaurant Manager level." ;-) http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/saudiarabia/index.html
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 12:21 am Common This and the notion of peaceful protest are basically two areas that are not Asads strengths. He's got others. Personally I don't eat at McDonalds (at least not with regularity) because the food sucks. I would rather eat a delicious curry wurst, of course that's haram. True enough McDonalds is a prototypical multi-national corporation. And true enough it practices many of the things you despise in big business. But the fact is that without big business we would be in the stone age. Additionally, McDonalds maintains practices that are common to many other restaraunt chains. Of course, you are free to boycott the product if you don't like the corporate policies, and free to post your feelings here on the internet. So go get 'em kid. After we rebuild Somalia (with no stinking McDonalds, damn it) then you can start your campaign to bring down this hideous evil. But can youplease ensure your plan does not include the bombing of McDonalds restaraunts - terrorist acts directed at the Great Satan, the Golden Arches, because they are Haram! Just kidding here.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 03:26 am Ha ha< smile> both of you making fun of me here  asad. brother i am glad you know things when you see them, take the best of my speech and disregard the rest, i think there are some things that i have mentioned about mcdonalds that are worthy of your attention. As far as i am aware as muslims we have to eat food that is Qahib (pure) as well as Halaal, i have doubts whether mcdonalds food is pure in any shape or form. mad brother Mcdonalds has a list of haters longer than my bad deeds, i should be the least of their worrys, every dissatisfied middle class radical is on their case.lol. True a lot of resturants practise this type of busisness, now i am down with people making a profit, but there has to regulations and measures to keep them in check, otherwise i may be emptying something a little heavier than a empty fillet-o fish carton into their bins...won't they be having a nice day .lol
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 03:45 am "This and the notion of peaceful protest are basically two areas that are not Asads strengths" i don't think africans got their freedom by peacefully protesting while singing "we shall over come" on the street while their heads are smashed by the euorpeans. ;-) "Ha ha< smile> both of you making fun of me here asad. brother i am glad you know things when you see them, take the best of my speech and disregard the rest" there is a story in the religious books in albukari and muslim. ali bin abii daalib used to work for this jew businessman in madina (of course the jew used to charge interest when he used to lend money to other pagan arabs and other jews in madina--------that is how the jews made money always) ali used to get handful of dates for the hours he worked. whenever ali worked enough dates to feed his family for that day, he used to leave and rush to the prayers and other islamic duties, but the jew business man wanted ali to stay longer hours. he used to encourage ali to make more, but ali used to refuse. now, did ali care how the jew made his business? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 08:15 am Interesting story. inshallah have taken the best from it
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