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Asad - I have to split

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Archive (Before Oct. 29, 2000): Asad - I have to split
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MAD MAC

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 09:03 pm
Asad / Formerguest / comrades
I will be out of the net for a few days, conducting secret missions in Palestine. No really I'll be at a training camp for a few days. I'll be back on Friday. You guys be cool. Don't blow yourselves up making bombs for terrorist movements or anything.

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asad

Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 02:24 am
"Don't blow yourselves up making bombs for terrorist movements or anything."

we are not the ones going to training and learning/teaching how to terrorize more innocent people. by the way, are there isaeli terrorists in the camp too? ;-)

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formerguest.

Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 04:15 am
GOOD RIDDANCE.

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Osama Bin Laden

Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 07:21 pm
I hope Hezbollah gets a grap on you and then hangs you because your dirty terrorist state will not go searchning for you.

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Anonymous

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:17 am
All of you

Listen! What are you talking about?
Are you sane or insane?

Really, I don't understand why you are wise in
somewhere, and you are so different other place!

HAVE ONE COLLOR, BE THAT ONE ALL THE TIME!

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asad

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:23 pm
"Really, I don't understand why you are wise in
somewhere, and you are so different other place!"

what do you mean?

"HAVE ONE COLLOR, BE THAT ONE ALL THE TIME!"

every time i look at the miror, i see one color which is black. ;-)

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common

Friday, October 20, 2000 - 05:14 am
A salaam aleikum

My My, imagine my surprise, when i stumble across my favourite arguing partner, making ripples in this forums.. yep you guessed it i used to spar with Mad mac in Somalilandnet forums. I must admit i miss the action, that place has slowly degrenrated into a propagandanet, not that i am particularly against the idea of somaliland, both Somalia, Somaliland..and the relatively recent concept of a nationstate can go to hell. I prefer to be called a Muslim from the Horn of Africa.anyways i digress, my point is it is good to see Mad mac again , the American with either serious ulterior motives or the biggest heart i seen in a while.
wasalaam everyone

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MAD MAC

Friday, October 20, 2000 - 10:16 am
Common
Missed you too man!!! Asad here is cool, when he's not calling me a terrorist. Formerguest is pretty cool too, even though he hates me. This page has been pretty good lately. I still post on the general and Womens Forum pages, but almost everyone on those pages is too busy calling everyone "nigga" and "ho" and no one wants to have a serious discusion. But there are some serious intellectuals here.

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formerguest.

Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:15 am
MAD.

I don't hate anybody but distrust. You are a man affliated with intelligence. Who knows what is your main objective in sticking your Irish nose in this part of the world?. Don't give me "I like the somali" crap. I was surprised you said "don't blow yourselves up". That is your real feeling towards every muslim isn't it?. You couldn't help but be yourself one more time.

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asad

Friday, October 20, 2000 - 12:12 pm
"Asad here is cool, when he's not calling me a terrorist."

that was a joke, man. i was just returning the favor when you said "Don't blow yourselves up making bombs for terrorist movements or anything." ;-)

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MAD MAC

Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 05:55 am
Asad / Formerguest
The don't blow yourselves up thing was a joke too. I thought it was obvious since we'd spent so much time talking about terrorism and the Middle East. Don't worry Formerguest, It's not like I'm excitable. I think all serious Muslims (and you definately fit into this category) are going to regard someone like me with suspicion. I'm used to it. You ought to see me when I'm in Eastleigh. I had this discussion (political) with this one woman and her husband (she was Haber Gedir) and she would slam the table every few minutes and say "I hate all Americans!!!" or "Death to the Americans". Eventually her husband told her she had to leave, because it was impossible for us to talk with her incessant interruptions. I have to admit it was kind of funny though. Needless to say, I have heard "I will kill you!" and the like enough times that your comments are mild by comparison.

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formerguest.

Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 03:59 pm
Mad.

" I think all serious Muslims (and you definately fit into this category) are going to regard someone like me with suspicion. I'm used to it."

It is not like we regard everyone with suspicion. Depends on the situation one puts himslef into. Just consider it that we have disagreements based on religion. That is all. Kinda hard to accept a foreigner and a proffessed disbeliever knows so much about us. You have all the ingredients and the powder cake of your undoing in this part of the net. It comes naturally from us. We are all fierce warriors everywhere we live in. I got a kick from that HB woman and how she slammed down hard on the table. I could see it happening right now. She was spirited enough to tell you how she felt.

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MAD MAC

Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 03:15 am
Formerguest
She was definately spirited enough. No problem there. she was so spirited she couldn't put together a coherent thought. She let her emotions do her thinking for her. But it was funny. Her poor husband was totally embarrased. He wanted to have a serious conversation and she sounded like a nut. I don't like to generalize based on clan, but you know the Haber Gedir can get pretty excited sometimes. She definately fit the stereotype.

I'm not impressed with the spirited warrior thing. My friends are not big mouths; if you saw them on the street you wouldn't give them a second look. But they are intelligent, cool under fire, calculating and ruthless. Extremely well trained and able to put steel on target with a decent weapon at 700 meters or more - one shot one kill. That's what we do. At every echelon we have soldiers who are extremely capable. The guys who have been around a while aren't going to be popping off. The kids do, but not the older guys. You don't want to mess with them. I remember watching this Iraqi training film and it showed a bunch of guys practicing hand to hand combat techniques and crap like that. These were line infantrymen - not special ops or anything. I thought to myself, "When do they think they are ever going to use that crap? They ought to be maintaining their BMPs and practicing gunnery, that's what counts in maneuver wars." A month of getting their asses kicked in the desert and that was the end of the feirceness. They couldn't surrender fast enough. The Haber Gedir remained pretty fierce until after 3-4 October. That took the gas out of their gas tanks. I remember the Hawadle attacked them on 25 October around Lamber Afar and the Haber Gedir just folded. They had no energy left. Had we come in with a light infantry division we could have rolled the SNA up in a day. The political will just wasn't there.

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common

Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 04:56 am
Mad Mac
dear Sahib
lets be real here, the most powerful weapon you guys have is the pychological tactics you deploy, which blur the distiction of most of what Amnerica does from Democracy promtion, to food Aid, and military combat. Tell me , with those extremely trained..shoot to kill type commadores, why were you guys playing a radio blasting "military sounds" outside the "aideed compund". Please don't insult our intellegence with the we can wipe you out in a second mentality, maybe you can, maybe you can't, who knows?. But if we believe you can, then hey the war is already won. Do you actually believe the stuff you were saying? If i remember correctly, it wasn't only the 19 year olds from Kansas you got shaken by Mogadisho, but CIA operatives too.That took to hiding out with the indifferent "CARE".

I am not impressed with the man of steel thing, it pretty much falls on its face in the heat of the battle. Your friends may not be big mouths, but they have a huge weakness, they are afraid to die.British soliders in Alegria, said how do you defeat a solider who looks down the barrels of your gun and sees Paradise. The answer is you can't, if he kills you it is a victory for the ummah, if you kill him its a personal victory for him. How does your paycheck balance up against that?

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Anonymous

Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 07:17 am
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOl@Commom

British soliders in Alegria, said how do you defeat a solider who looks down the barrels of your gun and sees Paradise. The answer is you can't, if he kills you it is a victory for the ummah, if you kill him its a personal victory for him. How does your paycheck balance up against that?


Well said my br
It is the best Point of veiws That I ever read.
MAd_Mac, you really need to think Hard to answer this.
my allah giude us all.

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common

Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 07:50 am
Sorry i am back
that message disturbed me. See if Mad mac is like he says he is a trained vetren of the US ARMY. Then he would be aware that in the Gulf war, friendly fire was the casue of most American deaths. If Allah wants your weaponry can be used against you. Secondly If he was there in Mogadischo, then he would know that Somali informats were the only key the US ever had to actually catch Aideed. Consider also how that Iraqi training video got into US hands, inevitably through the hands of a muslim.Muslims are the downfall to muslims, technology has never defeated us.
So what i don't get is if there is something sinister about your postings or something incredible naive. I find it hard to reconcile this thought Mad mac, not out of any paranoia instilled in me in muslim upbring, an idea which i imagine you could entertain.
but by your own testemont of 16 years of observation.
The Moroccans in their war of liberation killed more french than world war two. Consider the lightening aircraft hitler had the tanks, and then consider the moroccans..... hitler.. the morrocans..hitler...the moroccans
the French know who did do more damage. I have a feeling you do too. Funny how whole chunks of history can be brushed under the carpet and of course there is Vietnam the dirty word in American English. One reason why America is so easy to beat in a war is that it's society is not prepared to take casualties.Tell me why you are so eager to portray America or any other western nation as an invincible military power, you know that this is not true, if it is why isn't your defence budget going down. Why does your governement,collect data on the number of men fit for military service in Sudan for example is sum figure around 4,500,000,00 men between the age of 18-49, half of them considered "fit".. with a huge number added every year.In Nigeria the figure is even more, surely you are aware why when africa has the lowest population densities in the world (somalia 13, sengeal 37, eithopia 42.. netherlands 397!)western governements are promoting forced sterelisation and refusing to co-operate on medicince patents for deseases such as AIDS.In sudan for example children are injected with arsenic to cure sleeping sickness,with the hope that it is enough to kill the desease and not the child,it can be cured with insulin, your government refuses to ratify the sudansese governements making of its own insuln..and boy would you use trade embargoes to back it up.At the same time most western nations, have policies to encourage birth rates.<smile>.. tell me what would you infer from this?.. i say someone is scared... real scared. this are not the actions of a invicible military power
oh and there is always the filiming factorYou start filming americans dying, its all over baby no raz mataz polls obssessed president wants to be in a unpopular war
in the words of Gamal Nasser
"America!, may you choke on your fury!"

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MAD MAC

Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 11:34 pm
Common
Allright, we got something going here.

First, Nasser was a jerk. He fought the Israelis and lost big time. The only people he ever succesfully opressed were his own.

Second, how do you beat such a foe, in MAC's book there are two key ingredients. First, pick you battles wisely. Don't turn it into a war of ideology. Stick to the roots of the conflict at hand. In Somalia, for example, we were the good guys and Aideed and the SNA were the bad guys. Most Somalis recognized this at the time, hence the support we got from non-Haber Gedir types.
How do you defeat an enemy who looks at his personal death as a personal victory - you kill him. I remember this one time on 9 September a friend of mine, Jim, came back from a fight up on 21 October Road and said "We can't win. No matter what we did, tear gas, shooting, they just kept coming." My position on that was nonsense. Just start killing them whole sale. ID and attack all of their weapons caches, all of the economic centers, all of their leaders homes. When they mass in crowds kill them all. Eventually you will break their will. We broke the SNAs will after 3/4 Ovtober. You think Aideed declared a unilateral cease fire on 9 October because he was a man of peace????? I don't think so.

I will not attempt to defend the military prowess of the French. I have worked with them and the Italians plenty. I will tell you that had the Moroccans screwed with Nazi Germany in WW II Hitler would have had no compunction whatsoever about killing every single Moroccan man, woman and child, thus ending the fight.

As for collecting data, why does my government collect data on the mating rituals of the Amazon tree Frog? Because it likes to collect data. Just because they collect it doesn't mean they plan to use it. My government, contrary to popular opinion on this net, for all of its ills, is not an enemy of Islamic peoples.

You are right when you say Muslims are the down fall of Muslims. However, tht can be said of everyone. Christians are the downfall of Christians. They fight and kill each other with far more abandon than they fight and kill outsiders. WW II - 50 million dead!! The reason for this is because Muslims are no more homogenous a grouping than Christians or Bhudist or anyone else is. For all the babbling about Muslim brotherhood, at the end of the day what counts is national self-interest. That's true for all countries. Yemen is not going to risk Sanaa for the Palestinians. King Fahd is not going to risk Riyadh for Jerusalum. Imagine this scenerio. The Arabs unite and attack Israel. After bitter fighting the Arabs are defeated. This leads to recrimination all around. Syria breaks into civil war with Asad trying to hang on. Mubarek is toppled, replaced by a hard line regime, cuts ties with the US, and promptly loses 2 billion dollars in aid money plus food aid that Egypt critically needs. Famine subsequently ensues. King Fahd is toppled and civil war breaks out between those who want ties with the west and those who want to severe all ties with the west. The US is forced to intervene to protect its oil supplies. Saudi Arabia decends into anarchy. The possibilities are endless. The bottom line is that even though on the surface the Muslim people empathize with the Palestinians (just as I do) they don't want to starve to death over the issue.

Also, allow me to offer this thought from Zen. Every action has a reaction (the reason I think America should only use its armed forces sparingly). Should the Islamic world become homogenous and hostile, the west would unite and fight that. Since the west is resource rich and the Islamic world resource poor, guess who wins this contest?

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common

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:45 am
Dear Mad mac

Okay firstly thanks you for answering. I am leaning towards the naivety thing, which is essentially a good thing. Okay i wanna clarify a few things. My point about the Moroccans and Hitler, was not that Hitler could not kill moroccanss, rather that the Moroccans killed more French than Hitler ever managed in ww2.
Secondly, you can not defeat someone who percives both killing you and death as a victory. You can kill them mad mac, sure but they are not defeated. We are here taking about the word defeat here. What you described , your antidote on 9 sepember was a senario of slaughter, not defeat.
Defeat does not equal exterminate, that is a very narrow understanding of the word.
Mad mac.. i begged you earlier to get real about a few issues. Firstly your government is a enemy of Islam, your governement hates any threat to its hedgemony , its values.(I offer you the thought that is seems intristicaly perverse to have values you would kill for, but not die for?) Marcathisym takes may forms. while kissinger claimed that "We cannot sit by and watch a people while they stupidy elect a marxist".. what exactly was the CIA doing in Nicaragua?. The same thing it was doing in Iran i would imagine. I am not saying that America is soley a enemy of Islam, America is the enemy of different ways of thinking, and we have to admit, Islam is a "radical" way of thinking when compared to your average depolicised, miseducated mid western american, concerned mostly only with his fuel bill.
i agree muslims are not homogenous, but you speak fo this as if it was a natural phenomenon! and was not worked very hard at through colonilaisation!.
With regards to your countries military data, i asked you to consider it in light of your countries actions, in trade, population control policies and medince patents. A holistic approach my brother..I am well aware that your country collects data on frogs, it probably kills them to learn more about them as well. But lets not pause to think that your government is not concerned with Military threats, USAID NED(national endowment for democracy) were created in the highest echlons of National security.You make national self interest count!.. and then you seek to explain this to me and the site as if it was ordained by the Holy Ghost and is completely set in stone!Basically you need more people to think like you so there is less people to fight. You cannot.. and i reapeat cannot, beat back the muslims united, let alone the third world united, your numbers are tiny!, under what aupices will you unite?.. the oppressors!, you will already be defeated once people understand your methods and that my friend is what causes so much misery in the world. The first worlds insecurity, you are paralisyed by this fear, possesessed by your demons, aware that the violence that you display will come back at you, as sure as the sun will rise. If you would like a more elaborate explaination of this idea, read Jean Paul Satres preface to Wrteched of the earth ,by Franz Fannon, you can exocise the demons there
perhaps you will refer to your selfs as "democracies".. the sacred harp of the west. the incessant drun beat,music of our times unforuntaly as you know, you posses not jefforsian spirt, nor john stuart mill convictions. Your government has more people "under correction" than any dicatatorship, a dispropornaite number of them came from my continent.
With regards to the west being resource rich!.. come on now bwoy! you must be outa your mind. Potentially we blow you out of the sky. Poverty is essentailly a political experience, you guys have very little resources, you would do well to stick to technology, you have comparative advantage in that
Your anaylsis of Eygpt makes me laugh,Eygpt did not lose to Israel, but America and Israel US Congress men were reporting in London at the time "we lost two helicopers today"..refering to Israel's military weaponry.Eygpt is dependant on Food aid, but is more than capable of getting its own food, only due to the World economic system is their a problem ,you and i know about the politics of food my friend, lets not use it as weapon in the theory as well as the practise, casue there is more than 2500 edible food species in Ghana alone!, while the whole world eats or subsequently starves becasue "we" (and by we i mean the aggribusines of the west)produce 4 varities of 5000 plus known edible food species (consider how much are unknown). Again you attempt to convince, by acting like the world is somehow is compelled to retain the form the west has sqeezed it into. Why would the multitudes of Africa and latin America, Asia side with the west, if we entertain our clash of the civilisations?, you cannot bomb us out of extintion!,and consider why would you want to?, have you becaome so twisted, so evil in your oppression that you would after making us starve,die of dieseases and envirnomentaly pollution. destroy us in a second if we spoke out against this in a non peaceful mannor?. You speak of non -violence If violence begain this evening, then perhaps the methods of non-viloence espoused by a tiresome west would work, we are steeped in violence you have given it to us in a unprecedened level and you sit back and tell us to demostrate with placards , do as i say not as i do? you say the Arabs would massacre the jews of course they would!, this is what you have taught them and they have paid attention well!,how can you avoid clarity on this issue, how can you expect anything less of us?. and if you do would you have defeated us?. The sad thing is that you have no idea about the damage you do, Fredick Engles said "man has created the state, and now the state has taken over the man", you guys are headed for a collison casue with the whole world, straight ahead into the abyss and you act like you are in control but you are not and, that is why i say you cannot defeat us, because you are are a defeated people yoursleves, your not in control of what you do, you spilt the atom..and then you bomb Japan, you had no idea about that, you just say oops and pick up the pieces, satans little helpers!
Rousseau said "most men live lives of quiet desperation".. muslims do not brother, we implore , we beseech!, while you bend to a will you cannot see but compells you do do harm and consider this your "free will"? Ya Allah.. you are cursed by a system that terrorises your pscyhe and travel through life like a battered wife, fearful of the touch of reality that hurts so much, scuttle along corridors of power, stopping breifly to exchange lies, and move on quickly lest you be distracted form your "work". You are in Business of killing muslims Mad mac, lets not be under no illusions here, its not a full time business, but a important one none the less. I will not flatter myself thinking we matter that much, no money is far more important. But please don't deny the truth at least in its material manefestations, in purely material sense, you can see the evil this civilisation does. When catarts form on your eyes (which they do every 8 seconds in Africa), the horizen passes and it takes a whole day to recognise the sunshine,

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common

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 03:09 am
Sorry
aslaam aleikum
i have just realised that i make the misake of puting "mad mac" at the top of my messages, while i am addressing him, it isn't him i am most concerned about but, raher that muslims be aware that what he is saying about a particular issue is incorrect (which most of you already are)
waslaam

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:13 am
Common
I knew it!!! Being verbose is an Islamic creed. Both you and Asad practice it. What is this, the impact of colonization on the third world in 1,000,000 words or less? Holy Cow. I'm a speed reader and it took an hour to read that thing. You must have taken typing in school.

Ok, I'm going to try and be concise here:

a. You are incorrect. America is not an enemy of Islam. Islamic societies need not be anti-democracy. You can embrace different value sets and there's nothing wrong with that. I admit with the current administration, who's foreign policy is headed by "Bomb Sight Albright" that might be hard to see. But try and take the long view. US foreign policy will transform in the relative near term. There will always be friction from womens groups and the like who see "different" as bad, just as there will always be Muslims on the fringe who see "secular" as bad. But this is low grade friction subservient to true interest.

b. You say I see lack of homogeneity as something that is "natural". Of course I do. Look at the careless abandon your Somali brothers have been killing each other with over the centuries. Long before there were Italians and Portuguese, you guys were killing your Muslim brothers because they had different great, great, grandfathers. Of course, the truth is you were killing each other over scarce resources, the same reason people usually kill each other. At the end of the day Somalis are more concerned with their own self-interest than with "brotherhood". The same can be said of Americans or Germans, etc. In fact, I felt far more kinship with the Abgal when I was in Somalia than I ever did with the Italians even though I'm of White European and American Indian decent. Why? Because while I was in Somalia the Abgal were my friends and the Italians were a royal pain in the ass.

c. Egypt most assuredly lost to Israel. At the end of the '67 war, Egypts army was on the West bank of the Suez canal looking east. No matter how you slice it or dice it, they lost. They lost in 73 too, although they had better initial results. Their training and equipment have always been decidely inferior. Right now, they have limited amounts of decent equipment (provided by the US) but their level of training is still sub-par. Syrias army is rapidly turning into a joke.

d. Asia has already thrown its lot in with the west. Even China is moving to the west economically, and the communists can't hold on forever (they're not really communist anymore).

e. Your assertion, that the world economic situation is the result of some vast conspiracy, is off the mark, though not uncommon for throd world conspiratorial theorists. I've heard it a million times before. The world economy is a free market. It is uncontrolled and unrestrained. That is an inevitable development. If the whole non-western world wanted to break away, why not just close your markets and create a closed economy? Because you can't, that's why. Same reason we can't. Because you can't shut down independent trade. Same reason the drug war is getting us no where - supply and demand. No one can control that.

f. Everyone always wants to blame their problems on someone else. Ever notice that. Jews blame Palestinians. Palestinians blame Jews. Europeans blame "foreigners" for crime. And on and on. What was it Jeff foxworthy said "Aren't you just sick and tired of raising your kids and then watching them go on Opra and blame all of their problems on you. Just once I'd like to hear someone say 'my Daddys great, my mom's great, I'm just a shithead.'" Well, maybe it might occur to some of the knuckleheads in the third world that the reason that their economies suck is because they maintain leaders and administrations who steal them blind. They tolerate levels of corruption that would make the Italian Mafia cringe and then blame their lack of economic development on "the west." How convenient. Shall I list the leaders in question? Let's hit close to home. How much money was Siad Barre ripping off? And when the US had relations with his government it was the US' fault for supporting him. When we cut off all aid to his government, the subequent anarchy was his fault. When we sent troops to stop the famine and try and restore political order, then we were the evil imperialists. I mean, come on, you and your likes are going to blame us no matter what.

Lastly, I am not in the business of killing Muslims. I am in the business of executing the missions assigned to me. If the Iraqis are Muslims and we square off, then I kill Muslims. If it's the Serbs, then I kill Orthodox Christians. If it's a Cuban, then I kill Catholics. I'm an equal opportunity killer. I bear no prejudice to any group.

You say that I espouse "non-violence" preached in the "west." The original practitioner of non-violent resistance was Ghandi. I wouldn't hardly describe him as an agent of colonialism or the west. I have advocated a course of action that will provide the Palestinians positive results. The inverse is to see Palestinian bodies heaped like cord wood. Course, in the end, I don't much care as long as I don't have to go back there. I hate the Middle East.

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asad

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:22 am
"I knew it!!! Being verbose is an Islamic creed. Both you and Asad practice it."

i wonder if mad mac looks at the minor he sees himself. what mad mac writes on somalinet forumss compare to what asad writes is a big difference. they say a talkative person always thinks that others are talking when he is talking. ;-)

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asad

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:24 am
"I knew it!!! Being verbose is an Islamic creed. Both you and Asad practice it."

i wonder when mad mac looks at the miror if he sees himself. what mad mac writes on somalinet forumss compare to what asad writes is a big difference. they say a talkative person always thinks that others are talking when he is talking. ;-)

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Common _Fan

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:24 am
Common

WAW! my Allah put you in (Janah) if only we as Muslims are really awere the Kafir Tacticks then we would,t have been the way we are to day......My br we need some one like who make us us wake........do you consider yourself to became a writer? if you do I will be first to buy your Book.....or my be it is best if you became freelance writer so you will be able to tell the World what is going on.......not that some of us don,t know but many of us really don,t understand the Dark secret which hiden American Ideoligy.


Keep writing it please, I am going to Print this page and Provide the Information those who are sleeping.........Thanks for your Time.

peace

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common

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:03 am
Mad mac

okay. thank you for responding. I will try (i swear i will try) to keep this concise. But i must admit you have upset me, and this usually makes me write longer posts.So i will referenec what you need to read further on
But i swear if i see the screen rolling too far i will stop.
You misunderstood my some of my problems with american foreign policy, ignored others and billittled the rest. So i will clarify.
A) I do not have a problem with democracy or civil society, your government does. We need not argue about it, you are a concerned citizen their are books on the topic. America is a free marketeerer, it focus on the social engineering of new Types ; read on the % of AId budget spent on South Africa and Uganda on organisations such as the "free market foundation", your government doesn't go near rural areas brother!. Basically point number A is that it is not Islamic societies that are unDemocratic, but alas the Statue of liberty is a Prostitute.
b) okay here i think your bring raised in a American society makes it difficult to understand the concept of brotherhood, if you went to a Mosque and say a Malaysian feet touching a Somali's while they bend down to pray maybe you would understand more. Your somali killing each other before colonialisation is irelvant, my point was colonialisation undermined former existing social networks all over Africa. Any text book will do here

c) my point was Eygpt lost to ISREAL AND AMERICA, not that Eygpt won. Are we denying Americas involvement?

d)Surely you mean Asian leaders? <shaking my head>

e) This one upset me the most. Cause you are straight up lying here

* you claim the world economy is a free market, firstly markets are not perfect.
*Your government,in fact every western government
developed industrailly under PROTECTIONISM!
* Secondly none of them were democratic, as there is friction between the rapid acculimation of capital and social freedoms
* Your answer to why we can't close are markets are partly in F, people like Siad Barre, and becasue you will go to war to open them, THE OPIUM WAR
* You telling me the US doesn't subsidise its farmers so they can compete with Third world farmers so much for "independant trade"
* You telling me the US doesn't influence the IMF and the World bank, through structural adjustment for the circumstion of the state in Africa?, the withdrawl of food subsidies (bread riots all over Africa in the late 80's early 90s), the devaluation of currency etc.
*"uncontrolled and unrestrained", yeah right! why does your government put tarrifs on maufactured goods from the thrid world, man you fronting!
*the drug war- ask the CIA.. seeing as you ignored my question of what they were doing in Nicaragua, apart from trying to kill a deomcratically elected leader they were drug trafficing with the contras

You claim i am off the mark, but fail to mention where!, admit your wrong, its not impossible.
Secondly i get offened when you throw things like "conspiracy theory" around, becasue your congress approves such measures

F i agree fully with you about our corrupt leaders, although you undermine the level of their invlovement with teh west, for example said Barre and the P2 masonic lodge and the Italian chemical industry. You didn't come to stop any famine stop lying, okay well perhaps you did, your government didn't
lastly
indeed you are an equal opportunity killer, howver it seems muslim blood is more equal than others

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common

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:47 am
"common fan".lol
you making me blush brother
Thank you for praying for me
May Allah grant you abode in Jannah as well sahib


* quick note , for those not versed in economic thought when i said "markets are not perfect", what i mean is that glaring disparities exist between the power relations of certain actors, both external and internal for example the united states and somalia and countries like the latter can and frequently are held to ransom over issues. and for example between a man and women in society.

Ps: the US Disgusting, notorious, widely known corrupt foreign policy is not comparable to anything on Oprah, and i feel silly pointing that out?, but if it would make you feel better and fit in with your warped and brutally twisted version of recent history and reality i will say the worlds you are dying to hear.
"America is great... WHOOOAAA God bless America, why are we so incomptant in the simple art of trade, Gotta love them Yanks
<slapping my knee, chewing on tobacco and pulling a contorted gormless expression so well loved by the people who use "conspiracy theory" to refer to anything that makes them look remotly bad>..save the "recipe knowldge" and your bland anaylsis for your military circles, we ain't gonna applaud true lies here

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formerguest.

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:46 pm
Verbose or not I agree. Guys, I am having hard time keeping up with the stuff. Okey, I will relax and just read what is going on. I like when MAD feels cornered and complains about brothers being smart.

Common.

Keep up the good stuff. I was worried that Asad would give up visiting since he was the only one who managed to write a response or two to MAD. Anyway, I appreciate if you stick around for a while. I will happy to be away knowing somelinet is not left for corruptors like mad. see you.

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 11:09 pm
Common
I wrote a well thought out response to your post last night so what happens? The damn server goes down. Isn't that just typical?

Allright, here I go.

a. America supports democratic governments in principal. This principal can be over-ridden by self-interest. Hence, we agree with democracy in principal, but if the voters in Algieria elect a government that is somewhere to the right of Ghangis Khan and wants to align itself with Iran then when there's a military coup we're not going to say much. We have a choice between bad and worse. Before you get on your high horse, remember, all responsible States put the interests of their citizens first, not principals, beliefs or other states citizens.

b. I understand brotherhood perfectly well. Soldiers have it in truckloads. Soldiers are willing to die for each other. You think soldiers fight because they believe in democracy or the free market? NO!!! They fight for the guy on their right and the guy on their left. They aren't fighting for the honor of the umpty umpth regiment. But "brotherhood" falls short when it comes to state interest. Hence, in the war with Iraq we have American "Kufaar" fighting side by side with Saudi and qatari and Syrian Muslims against the Iraqi Muslims.

c. I'm not denying American support to Israel. Are you denying Soviet support to Egypt and Syria? Where do you think all those Soviet tanks came from? Copyright infringement?

d. No I mean Asians. Asians havealigned themselves economically with the west and are competing effectively in western markets. The Phillipines are still struggling, but most other Malaysian countries are booming. China's going to break out soon. That will be a boon. A propsperous China is a natural US ally and great trading partner - sort of an eastern version of Europe. The commies aren't long for this world, their own citizens are sick of them.

e. Well, let me reiterate, the world economy is uncontrolled and unrestrained. The IMF and World Bank might be able to steer it in a broad direction, but that's it. The global economy is not a directed economy, like the old Soviet one was. The real piece you're missing here, is that you are looking at the world economy as a pie that is cut into pieces and the US is getting an unfair piece. But it's not a pie. Economic growth in Asia is good for the US (look how it affected our economy when Asias economy took a dip a couple of years ago). If Africa's economy would grow that is good for America and Europe, not just Africa, because it provides not just competetors but markets!!! It does you no good to make a product if you have no market for it - or if no one can afford to buy it. In short, taking a warm coat off of my back, is not going to make your back any warmer.

It is true we developed using protectionism. So? You point? We can't role back the clock. Protectionist policies won't help under-developed nations develop now.
Arguably the US and England were democracies (maybe France too). Again, this is all irrelevant. Certainly it is in the interest of people globally to pursue democratic ideals. Look at the alternatives - none of which are very desirable.
Closing your markets does nothing to help your own development. Let's take a look at the worlds best closed development model - North Korea. There's a good place to emulate. Want a bigger model? China under Mao Tse Tung - say post Soviet collusion. Another great model. Want a before and after. Pre-open society Japan. Backward, impoverished, economically stangnant. Modern Japan. In a period of 30 years goes from a backwater to crushing the Russian fleet, developing industry, and becoming a world player -a role it retins today. OK, so there were a few bumps along the road, fact is Japan has grown remarkably in that very environment you decry. And your alternative will lead to nothing but more poverty.
The market is open. When the US puts tariifs on things other countries are free to respond in kind. The rules apply all around. What I can do, you can do. The world is anarchic.
OK, Nicaragua. Any US government representative who was supprting the contras with drug money was supporting a rogue operation. That was not official state policy. As for supporting the contras, do you remember something called the cold war? The US was engaged in a life and death struggle with soviet expansionism. This, on occassion, led to some harsh and unfortunate policies, easy to criticize in retrospect and done freqeuntly by people who were, incidentally, no help whatsoever in getting rid of the Soviet Union (A world class Muslim killer if there ever was on by the way).

You ever listen to or watch Jeff Foxworthy? He has this one act where he says "Aren't you just sick and tired of people making excuses. You work hard all of your life to raise your kids just so they can grow up, get on Oprah and blame all of their problems on you. Just once I'd like someone to get on that show and say 'My daddy was great, my momma was great, I'm just a shithead'". Before the third world whiners of the planet want to point fingers at everyone who is abusing them, they need to clean their own house. You don't want to deal with the IMF or the World Bank, don't take money from them. You don't want to open your country to free trade, don't. You think the US is going to invade Somaliland to open its borders??? Yeah right. We have so many vital interests there.

Your last point is the best. Come on man, you got more brains than this. There was a huge famine caused by your own people during a vicious civil war. Caused by Somalis, led by Somalis, fought by Somalis. The only people to blame for the civil war in Somalia are the Somalis. That's why they're the only ones who can stop it. Somalia doesn't have anything of value, never had anything of value, and except for an Italian fruit company and Dole Bannanas, no one cares about Somalia. What are the reasons I've heardwe went there:

A. We wanted to steal Somali oil. (course, there are no wells, no production, no guarenteed reserves in quantity, but aside from those facts, it's a great theory.
B. The US was stealing Uraium from Bur Hakaba. Another nice theory, but alas, nope that was your Muslim brothers, the Libyans.
C. This is my favorite. we were there to steal Somali sand because the Somalis have the best sand for making glass. You got that?? I'm not making this up.

We went there because it wasn't good enough to give Somalis food, they couldn't manage to deliver it. So we had to do it for them. Now I was involved in US policy during Restore and Continue Hope, so you'll be hard pressed to convince me of another motive. If there was one, it was a well kept secret (something the US government doesn't do well incidentally, keep secrets).

The cold hard fact of life is that the third world is responsible for their own problems. History might not have been kind to them, but no two things in this world start life with an even chance. 200 years ago Japan was nothing, now it's an industrial giant. Honk Kong was nothing, now it's huge. Singapore was at zero - look at it now. Want closer to home. Tunisia was colonized, was under-developed and now look at it. Sitting around blaming your problems on someone else may be fashionable, but it is not productive and it won't change squat.

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common

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:23 am
Oh lord! <shaking my head>
you can not be serious!

i gotta few things to do, but i ma respond, and alas it will probably be verbose, but there are some things you need to know. You make some valid points, but nothing a neo liberal new world order type of guy ain't thrown at me before and ultimatly nothing which is based on any empirical, historical or unemotive data , you pushing ideology all over this website brother my advise? after i explain, stop faking it

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:45 am
Well abowe, when you formulate your response, please stick to the organized structure we have here. That will make it easy to follow now that we've estabslihed a pattern.

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common

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:33 am
Mad mac
okay here is my response, i will formulate it best as i can

A. Fine America puts the interests of its people first, we are getting somewhere, the problem i have is that it pretends to have the interest of other people at heart. Your government does not support democratic principles at heart, it supports Autharian regimes whne it is profitable (latin america 1970-late 80's)..and "democratic regimes" when profitable, there are no principles involved
B. brotherhood falls short when it comes to state interest i agree, but again you seek to justify your claims by the world the west has squeezed on us, the nation state is one a relatively recent concept,IT DID NOT EXIST ONCE, AND CAN EASILY REVERT BACK TO THAT and increasily one that is proving to be incredibly outdated, with Multi National companies having higher incomes than most European countries, globalisation is taking us places! About those "muslims" fighting alongside you, i never denied we have issues!, you have "druze" muslims in the Israeli army, the middle east is losing the plot

c. do not deny Soviet support, remind me who won the cold war?

D. The Asian countries might be boombing, but with what, sadly World market factors, when you have comparative advatage in cheap child slave labour, and you lock your workers in to sow GAP onto T-shirts your economy booms, but who suffers?. tell me when you get locked into factors how is that alligning yourself with the west <shaking my head> and the pay, about a Dollar a day!, do you see a difference between this and Stalins five year plans?. "market liberalism is just a much a religion as communism was"

e. yeah economic growth in the world is good for the west, but what kind? export led growth, that provide raw materials for the west. America does not want Companies developing domestic markets, cause who will import all your wonderful products?.You have huge markets in Africa, if we had companies providing for these markets, you would disrupt that. With regards to noone being able to afford to buy your products, oh we can afford them alright, i seen slums with Satellite dishes and no running water Are you sure America likes Economic growth like Japans?, and sorry to burst your bubble but japan developed under protectionism too, as did the NIC's (newly industrailesed countries, Maylsia South korea etc).. What is it you are having a problem understanding?.. everyone dennounces protectionsim, but they use it!.. you want me to just shut up?. is that it?

With regards to the "third world whiner" thing, i make no bones about my hatred for African leaders, Wolves in Ill fitting European suits and if i was talking to a African, that is what i would concentrate on, but you are pulling a western world holier than thou image, which is distored and fake. You know African leaders are corrupt and concerned about themselves and so do i, tell me why do you go to great lengths to point this out, i Admit our leaders have no value, why can't you clean up your garden?, your pricky suffocating vines reach into our economies, do ours reach into yours? bwoy you wanna watch your step!. Secondly you know i have no control over how much Somalia borrows from the IMF as much as you can't influenc Bombsight albrights decisions, so why tell me to do so?

With regards to your list, The United Nations placed the promotion of liberal norms at the heart of its peace keeping mission in Somalia as it has in 25 of the 39 peacekeeping missions it has carried out since 1989 , you wanna know whay you were there, the same reason you are here, cultural imperalism,and your right it is well documented whether you are concious of it or not is down to your intellegence, i cannot help there
"Somalia doesn't have anything of value"., Ya Allah Somalia has Islam, what more would do we need or what?
You came to give and devliver food?... i will leave you with that thought and a qoute you do the balancing up,.
"food is a weapon, it is now one of the principal tools in our negotiating kit" US secretary of state, Earl Butz, 1974

I am stunned you see anything attractive in Tunisia, their "jihad" against underdevelopment is a joke, read my intial post under why our the leaders the worst of us
Oh and i definaly ain't stiting around blaming someone esle for the third world problems, i know exactly who is to blame, what methods they used, what tactics they deploy nowadays and i wake up early every day at to learn more, Ya Allah every day, and i talk to my people and i learn and teach, learn and teach,.I ain't waiting for noone, noone. I know what i gotta do , be assured i know how to do it.i would imagine you would ask what am i waiting for, i ahve alreday started my brother. See what upsets you guys the most, is that you can't control the way i think, like when you got upste we me agree with the Quran. Ernest Gellers idea of Modular man is instrumental for the functionaing of your society, one who can change his religion, change his wife, change his everthing basically, rip of an arm and replace it with another one, no, i don't change my mind every five seconds, yeah i learn more,but this Manshallah reaffirms my faith in Allah (swt) but consistancy is hard for you guys to maintain, in fact consitancy is painful for you to endure. You hate my understanding, which sees through commercials, is not a consumer, casue basically that is all your offer to us as an alternative, buy buy buy and you will be happy, brother leave the agenda, let go of your passionate hatred of Islam contained in a voice choked "reason", you don't even realise what you write, re read your messages and observe your ferevent attacks, coated with "tolerance", you have no idea of your own state, how you gonna tell me about me and my people? huh?
Magagret mead told you, do not underestimate the power of a few small commited individuals to chnage the world, indeed that all that ever has.
and if it was fashionable to tell the truth i hadn't noticed, the catworks of Hargeisa are less well known than those in Milan

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common_fan

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:36 am
Common

"See what upsets you guys the most, is that you can't control the way i think, like when you got upste we me agree with the Quran"


That is it Common! That is the Power Allah gives us and we need to use it.....It is the Power of Mind, Thinking and refusinf, what Lost KUFARS want us to do.......But to be honest they are Traying so hard to capture that our own thinking.......will they sucsseed? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!! as long as some one like Common exist...LOL


P.S. I am not a BR I am a SIS.....is it the only Brother who can became your FAN....if it YES then I am OUT.

peace

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:39 am
Common
OK, now we're getting somewhere. We're not as far apart as I thought.

A. You overstate you case, but basically I agree. The US prefers to work with like minded countries who embrace like minded values (Islam IS, contrary to popular opinion, a like minded value - even though many of my countrymen don't know it). However, national interest overrides all else.

B. The nation-state is not through yet. Not by long shot. Not in our time. Maybe some day, but not in this coming century.

D. Your observation on the shortfalls of the free market are spot on. To which I would respond "So What?" The free market beats the alternatives. Like democracy - it sucks, but it's better than the other options.

E. Yes, even more Japanese like growth is better than no growth. Europe is short natural resources, America is not. At any rate, while many countries have grown under protectionistic policies, they can also strangle dmoestic markets and invite retaliation. If Somalia wants to develop industries using domestic then go for it. Personally I think an East African economic pact (sort of the NAFTA of the horn) with Ethiopia, Somalia, perhaps Kenya and Tanzania, Yemen, Djibouti and Eritrea is a good idea.

Here's where you really missed the mark. You don't realize who your audience is. Yes, I am American. But I have cast my lot with the Somalis. I am moving to Somalia in June 2004. So when I talk with Somalis about what needs to be done I, like you, address what Somalia must do to avoid the pitfalls during its regeneration:

a. Do not borrow moeny from anyone. Make it on your own. If you can get grants which you choose to pay back later, fine. But don't create a debt burden for your children to pay. It's an endless cycle and the money is only used for selfsih purposes anyway.
b. Work on education, first and formost. An educated population is one with a future.
c. Forget irredentist claims. Stop the babbling about the Ogaden and Djibouti and the NFD. Maybe someday you can gain these territories by plebescite. But stop making your neighbors nervous. Work on building bridges with them.

Are you going back to Somalia? I plan right now to settle in Jasira. You interested in joining us? You could be exactly the guy I've been looking for.

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:27 pm
Hey dudes. I gotta split. going back into the field for a three day exercise. I'll be back on Friday. Have fun without me. I'll miss ya!

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formerguest.

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:53 pm
Common:


Bro, may Allah grant you his wisdom. I woke up at 1:00am for a lack of sleep, took a shower, and sat at my computer to surf the net. I wasn't expecting much excitement untill I saw your honest to god piece of writing. That made my day. I also bookmarked it to reread whenever I want.

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Common_Fan

Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 06:35 am
Formerguest

"Bro, may Allah grant you his wisdom. I woke up at 1:00am for a lack of sleep, took a shower, and sat at my computer to surf the net. I wasn't expecting much excitement untill I saw your honest to god piece of writing. That made my day. I also bookmarked it to reread whenever I want."

I can see that you are also turning Common FAN... I even Print his speach and Gives to all my Friends...This is the Alerts we All need To Learn ...I am Glad that some ppl here are a Wake and Agree whit HIM...Common@s Point of veiws,is what we all need to Learn and fight Against the Kafir Ideolies.

Bles you Common>


peace

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common

Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 09:16 am
A salaam aleikum

hey friends and family

I know technically i am not supposed to be here, what with studying and all, but you guys are like my family <smile>. Formerguest Commonfan Mad mac and asad, i missed ya'll and had to come on back i forget to pray for you folk, but i will tonite inshallah.
So anyway i agree mad mac we are not 100% polarised in our thoughts. In fact i only really have a problem with D. you have posted
"so what" in response to the huge pitfalls of democracy and the free market. Along the lines of a churchill "best of a bad bunch " rationale. BUT, and this is a big but, Your brain thinks that democracy is a choice, and Islam isn't and democracy functions well as long as people believe they have the power to change it, but they can't.Listen up.
"democracy like the market(whose ideological appeal has a similar logic) may be an exellent mannor of making relatively minor choices within an overall settled structure, but it cannot without circularity and absurdity be granted the capacity to choose between total social structures or value systems".westerners are like donkeys on a five acre leash
So... if westerners cannot change there system of beleif, and can only make superficial changes to their belief stucture, why you so mad at muslims mad mac?, unless you like most westerners are deluded into thinking you can make total, instead of just token changes. Everyone, now do you see why the west seeks to portray Islam as a religion and not as a beleif system/way of life?.. you can change your religion, you can't change your belief system. Islam is the most successful world faith in resisting secularisation, yeah we have deep issues, but truly kuffars are amazed by Islam impact on people's minds.

oh yeah mad mac, sorry for approaching you as a non-somali.. i didn't mean it, and verily actions are by intention only. Yes i plan to move back to Somalia , i am always headed back to africa, at least once a year, inshallah when i finsih school i will move back, i haven't heard of that place you mentioned before (showing my ignorance), but tell me who is "exactly the guy you are looking for?" and how does he function in your future plans.lol. I can see mad mac all up in Somali politics in the future, you could be our version of the white Kenyan Dr richard leakey, but perhaps less corrupt <smile>

oh and definatly agree borrowing money, is not a good idea at all, and again i agree somalis are our most improtant resource. , investment in them is paramount

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MAD MAC

Friday, October 27, 2000 - 05:23 am
Common
Well sahib, here's my idea. It's flexible because the situation is fluid. I'm not a politician, I'm a soldier. I'm also an analyst by trade. I don't like politicians but recognize the inevitability of professional politicians in any organized society.

Jasira is a small fishing village in Somalia just south of Hamer. I am on friendly terms with some people there. It's a pleasant but poverty stricken place. I believe I can make pitches with Western government for grants to provide the following:

a. An electric grid to service the village. At least when I was there, there was no public power supply. The Germans build large wind turbines. They're made to order for a place like Jasora because the wind blows all the time. Our staff Weather Officer once explain to me that this steady wind is caused by temperature differentials between the desert floor and the surface of the sea which radically effect air temperature at sea level. Regardless of the reason, the wind blows almost all the time there. The Germans have become environmental fanatics. Most environmental fanatics are also full of do-gooders. I believe I can convince the German government to provide some wind turbines and assist in their establishment in Jasira so long as I can provide security (that's where MAC comes in).

b. I also would like (courtesy of USAID dollars I also believe I can tap into - I am an American Army Officer after all) to develop a public water and sewer system. It's not a large village so we're no talking major investment. Additionally, the access routes into it are very limited, making it easily defensible terrain - to keep at bay those pesky Mooryan. Should Somalia have a funcitoning government by then, this should be less of a problem.

I am convinced that with this basic infrastructure, and a few dollars of initial capital (I've got some ideas about potential donors but I want grants, not loans) then locals can start to develop some cottage industries. The idea is that this becomes a road map for other Somali communities to do for themselves. But more importantly, it gives us a base to operate from. That brings me to the long term goal. No longer required if Somalia has a government, but required if it does not. A free lance negotiator. I am not qualified. I have no diplomatic experience nor the suitable temperement. On top of that I'm not Somali. But I could provide security for someone else - someone like you for example. To bring this thing to an end. And the negotiation takes place in Hamer, not some far off location. If it'S not neccessary, IÄm sure the new Somali government will need advisors (free of charge) to assist in their security problems. What do you think?

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asad

Friday, October 27, 2000 - 08:14 am
"I believe I can make pitches with Western government for grants to provide the following:....."

mad mac, i think i told you before that it is better that the somalis handle it's problems without the help of you. you sound like if you can not help the somalis, they will not succeed in rebuilding their country.! i told you that if the somalis do handle the problem by themselves, they would feel they did something great. if someone comes to the resque every time they get into trouble, they will be always relying on an outside help. some somali people think foreigners are the ones that caused the problem in somalia in the first place, but i believe the somalis themselves created their own problems and they ought to be the only ones who should make somalia peaceful and successful. so, i'll say it again, for any foreigner to interfere or meddle with somali affairs (in politics, in social and in religious teachings) is doing a mistake. why don't you rebuild the ghettos in the united states and improve the lives of some of the ameicans who live in the united states, the so-called red indian people who are the right owners of this country. i think they need help in your and your friend's expertises in the area you mentioned, right?

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common

Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:38 am
Mad

I think you may have good intentions, the basic problem is in me trusting you and by logical extention all somali's trusting you. There is nothing inherently wrong with your plans or you being invloved in Somalia's development. However i think it would be best if you perhpas did not sya things like "diatribes" when refering to Quranic dialogue, granted Somali people have issues with their state of iman, but on the whole even if they are bad muslims they will resent you as a non-muslim being so vocal about Islamic issues. That is one area you need to be careful about. You see more than likely Somali's future is going to be Islamic, not some despot muslim country like Saudia, i mean it is the Islamic court system tahts been keeping mog running. I know if the west can help it this goal will not be realised, but the west often screw up.
I digress, dear Brother, just try and always remember the good from the bad, if you wish to be in Somalia and take part in its development, you have to revert to a Islamic way of thinking. This may not be hard, we are indeed not as polarised as you quite rightly pointed out.its not about you being a foriegner, most somali's have foreign thoughts nowadays, what it comes down to is good verus evil, the common denomenator. My name stands for common ground and commmon sense. If we stay in the reallm of good i have no problem working with you, i like enjoining the good and forbidding the veil. So...if you require i will help you in what you are trying to do, only i may not be the best person, my somali isn't all that and most somali's will see me as this little punk kid who grew up in the west. Basically I can and will help you if you need athough i would need to go through why you want to do what you want to do in complete and utter detail.etc etc.

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MAD MAC

Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 04:14 am
Agreed. I usually stay away from the topic of religion. Sometimes other Somalis bring it up because they feel an obligation to convert me to Islam. This of course can lead to some long discussion, because if people ask me I'll tell them what I think. Not just about religion, but about any topic. But I think if you you try and do the right thing, if people see you as a force for good and you try to help the people who can least help themselves, they will appreciate it regardless of where it comes from.

Asad
I know you reject my concept - unfortunately as you would be a great asset to the team. But you know I have to go back. I have no choice. Remember what I told you, you don't blow off messages from God. You remind me of the film Pulp Fiction. If you haven't seen it you should. There's a seen where John Travolta and Sam Jackson get shot at at point blank range. The gunman emties his pistol (Travolta and Jackson are gangsters) but doesn't hit anything.

Jackson: "We should be dead."
Travolta: " I know, we wuz lucky."
Jackson: "No, no, no. This wasn't luck. This was devine intervention.Do you know what devine intervention is?"
Travola: "I think so. You mean God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets?"
Jackson: "That's exactly what I mean. God came down from heaven and he stopped these motherfuckin' bullets."
Travolta: It's time to go now Jules."
Jackson: "Don't do that. Don't blow this •••• off."
Travolta: "Chill Jules. The •••• happens."
Jackson: Wrong! Wrong, this •••• doesn't just happen."
Travolta: Do you want to have this conversation in the car, or in a cell block with the cops?"
Jackson: "What happened here my friend, was a miracle. And I want you to fuckin' acknowledge it.
Travolta: "OK, it was a miracle. Can we go now?"

In the car
Travolta: "You ever see that show cops? I wuz watchin' it once and there as this cop in the hallway with this guy and he unloaded on him. It was just him and this guy. I mean, it's freaky, but it happens."
Jackson: "You want to play blind man, go walk with the Shepard, but me, my eyes are wide open."
Travolta: "What's that suppose to mean?"
Jackson: "That's it for me, from now on you can consider my ass retired."
Travolta: "Goddamnit Jules!"
Jackson: "Don't blaspheme."
Travolta: "Jesus Christ.."
Jackson: "I told you not to do that!"
Travolta: "Why you freaking out here. Marvin (in the back seat), what do you make of all this?"
Marvin: "Man, I don't even have an opinion."
Travolta: "Well you gotta have an opinion."

I will leave the rest of this scene out, but you can imagine that when you witness a miracle and then pretend you don't have an opinion on it, well, that's not good.

In the Restaraunt

Travolta: ".....You've been sittin' over there all serious and ••••."
Jackson: "I've just been thinking."
Travolta: "About what?"
Jackson: "About the miracle we witnessed."
Travolta: "The miracle you witnessed. I witnessed a freak occurrence."
Jackson: "What is a miracle Vincent."
Travolta: "An act of God."
Jackson: "And what's an act of God?"
Travolta: "When God makes the impossible possible. But today, I don't think, qualifies."
Jackson: "Don't you see, you're looking at this •••• all wrong. Now it could be he stopped the bullets, he changed Coke to Pepsi, he found my fuckin' car keys. You don't judge •••• like this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we witnessed was an according to Hoyle miracle or not is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God, God got involved."
Travolta: "But why?"
Jackson: "Well, that's what's fucking with me, but I can't go back to the street."
Travolta: "You're serious. What are you planning to do then?"
Jackson: "Well, that's what I've been sitting here thinking about. First, I'm going to deliver this case to Marcellus. Then, basically, I'm just going to walk the Earth."
Travolta: "What you mean, walk tha earth?"
Jackson: "Like Cain in Kung Fu. Walk from place to place, meet people, get in adventures."
Travolta: "How long do you plan to walk the earth?"
Jackson: "Til God puts me where he wants me."
Travolta: "And what if he doesn't do that?"
Jackson: "If it takes forever, then I'll walk forever."
Travolta: "So you decided to become a bum."
Jackson: "I'll just be Jules Vincent."
Travolta: "No Jules, you decided to become a bum. You know, like those pieces of •••• who beg for change, who eat what I throw away, who sleep in garbage bins. They have a name for that, it's called a bum. And without a job, legal tender or residence, that's what you'Re going to be my friend, a fucking bum!"
Jackson: "All shapes and sizes my friend."
Travolta: "Don't talk to me like that."
Jackson: "If my answers frighten you Vincent, then you should cease asking scarry questions."

Needless to say, Vincent becomes another example of why you shouldn't blow off messages from God. Although the film is profane and in some way warped, it's a must see. The dialog is hillarious, and the message, when you glean it, is compelling.

So, I have to go back to Somalia. Course I knew that before I saw Pulp fiction.

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asad

Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 09:23 am
"Asad I know you reject my concept"

you can do whatever you want, but i do not believe you talked to God and He told you to go to somalia. are you sure what you heard was God, and not just voices from someone else? ;-)

"unfortunately as you would be a great asset to the team."

i'm a team player, but i am not sure if i want to be in a team with someone who says he hears voices and thinks it is God who is talking to him. ;-)


"But you know I have to go back. I have no choice."

if you say so, but i know you are making a mistake. ;-).

"Remember what I told you, you don't blow off messages from God"

well, you know, that there are also many ameican christian missionaries who believe that they are doing God's work whenever they go to a country like somalia. i just wonder why these americans are ignoring their own people who are dying for spiritual guidance and in need of lots of other help. ;-)

"So, I have to go back to Somalia."

good luck. i hope i never see another american soldier being dragged by somalis on the streets of magadishu. wouldn't that be a mistake? ;-)

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MAD MAC

Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 11:15 am
Even where I dragged through the streets of Mogadischu, you wouldn't see it. Nothing that happens there makes much in the way of the news anymore.

Which leads me to my next question. Why don't you believe God told me to go to Somalia? I mean, God talks to everyone - at points in time of his choosing of course. Isn't this concept true in Islam? Can't you pray to God for guidance and expect an answer?

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asad

Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 02:56 pm
"Even where I dragged through the streets of Mogadischu, you wouldn't see it. Nothing that happens there makes much in the way of the news anymore."

i do not have to hear it from the news; maybe the people who will do the body dragging will type the seen and sell it to the public for fun. if they can do the dragging, they can sell the seen in a video, right? ;-)


"Why don't you believe God told me to go to Somalia?"

the same reason i do not believe those christian missionaries who say they are working for God. when they say God told them to preach that jesus is the son of god and part of god, i will not believe their story and what they have heard from God. ;-)

"I mean, God talks to everyone - at points in time of his choosing of course."

are you claiming that you are some kind of a prophet? ;-)

"Isn't this concept true in Islam?"

if it is, it is news to me. God is not going to talk to you and me.

"Can't you pray to God for guidance"

yes

"and expect an answer?"

yes, but did you hear Him saying to you go to somalia (His voice)? ;-)

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MAD MAC

Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 09:40 pm
Well, I didn't hear him audibly, but I didn't expect to. His messages are more complex than that. But I believe if you open your heart and ask for guidance it will come. I think that is true of everyone. In that sense, everyone is a prophet. The great prophets have this ability more than your average Joe, that's what makes them unique.

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asad

Monday, October 30, 2000 - 06:46 am
"Well, I didn't hear him audibly, but I didn't expect to. His messages are more complex than that."

mad mac, how do you know that it was not the devil who was whispering his messages into your mind? ;-). if you think God whispered His message into your mind, what did he tell you to preach to the somalis? ;-)

"But I believe if you open your heart and ask for guidance it will come. I think that is true of everyone "

i beleive Allah guided me to understand that He created the heaven and hell and the accountiabity of the day of judgement. i found this and accepted His guidance----His messages is in the Qur'an, have you seen and accepted this, mad mac? or you didn't see, like the blind sees not? oh! i fogot, you saw, but you rejected it like the ibliish, right? ;-)

"The great prophets have this ability more than your average Joe, that's what makes them unique."

all the prophets of Allah believed the existence of hell and heaven and they preached this. Allah has chosen His prophets and gave them the ability to transmit His message, but if the average joe (mad mac) does not accept this message, isn't he fool? ;-)

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MAD MAC

Monday, October 30, 2000 - 07:38 am
Just answer this question with a simple yes or no. Do you believe that you can ask for and receive an answer to your prayers? If you ask God for guidance can you get it?

To answer your question: I didn't ask the devil I asked God. So if I ask God I believe he will answer and not allow the devil to answer in his stead. I believe everyone can communicate with God, but it is the truly gifted to whom God gives guidance for all of us.

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asad

Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:08 am
"Just answer this question with a simple yes or no. Do you believe that you can ask for and receive an answer to your prayers?"

yes i can ask for something from God, but i might not get it. i might then force the issue and do my own things and then claim to have gotten these from Allah. many people blame Allah when they do something. others blame the devil, but there is no such thing in islam as the devil made me do it or God made me do it if you do things by yourself.;-)

"To answer your question: I didn't ask the devil I asked God."

what you asked of God might not be given to you, then the devil may whisper in your head and trick you into believing it was from God, right? ;-)

"So if I ask God I believe he will answer and not allow the devil to answer in his stead."

if you already rejected God's signs (the existance of hell and heaven, His book, the Qur'an, the day of judgement), the devil may allow himself to trick you instead. God may choose to leave you alone with the bath you have chosen and not answer to you, right? ;-)

"I believe everyone can communicate with God"

the only way people (other than the prophets whom God has chosen) can communicate with God is through prayers. we can talk to God, but He will not allow us (you and me) to hear His voice. ;-)

"but it is the truly gifted to whom God gives guidance for all of us"

the gifted (not the foolish) to whom God gives guidance (ISLAM) are those who are already accepted whatever is in His book (the Qur'an). Allah will not guide those who rejected His guidance (the Qur'an)---------it is in the Qur'an. ;-)

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