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     | Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 08:18 pm Assalaam Aleykoum, Hie Brothers Have any one of you ever heard of Somali Jews. My mother used to tell me that there were a few Somali jews that used to live in her home town of Barawe. I wasn't able to verify that, because it was a long time ago I'm sure it wouldn't surprise me if Some SOmalis converted to Judaism now that they live in the west. But what I am talking about is traditionnal Somali jews. Please let me know if you have some answers. Same thing too about Somali Indians and Pakistanis (where are they today) .
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| | Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 08:34 pm i have never heard somalis who were/are jews back home and neither have i heard somalis who were/are indian/pakistinis. but i have heard somali men who had a jewess and indian/pakistiani women as wives. i'm sure they have children.
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 02:51 am No way brother! I don't know if the West wanna plant or fabricate such these kind of stupid jews in our cauntry!
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 04:00 am Asalamu calaykum waraxmatulahi wabarakati Hi you all Mahmood, I am a somali girl and i have never heard somali jew, maybe what asad said is the answer, a somali man who got married to a jews lady. Anyway, when you convert your islam religion to another religion that person is kafur and goes straight to hell. Pakistani are muslim and they are from pakistan. India is a very complicated religion and i really don't think anyone wants to convert it. peace you all wasalamu calaykum waraxmatulahi wabarakati
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 05:38 am Actually, I read an article in the NY Times a few months back that did a profile on some man in Somalia who referred to himself as the Sultan of the Somali Jews. In Somalia they are the tribe known as the Yibir. But they are claiming that they are ancient Hebrews who came to Somalia 1000 years ago as teachers. But he said that they converted to Islam many years ago, and are Muslim Jews. I don't know if any of that makes any sense but the article was talking about how they have been mistreated and ostricized from the Somali political arena for many years. And about the Somali Indians, my dad used to tell me stories about these ppl who the British brought from India, who intermarried with the Somalis. They learned Somali, and they consider themselves somali, but in actuality they are Indians. I think my dad told me that they mainly lived in Xamar. I'm not really sure about this though. Thanks
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 09:37 am freaking assholes of course there are somali jews who do think the "YIBROWS" are? they decendent of jews people, but they live in somalia and they are somalis. and they are muslim. you can tell by their name "YIBROW" or HIBROW "yahood" or "JAHUD" or "JEWS" in any language they are the same. since jews are scutter all over the world. they got diffrent ways of saying their name. YIBROW is small somali tribe who live in the northern somali, no place like the midgos, but mostly scutter on the north. and i remember there was alot of them who went to ISREAL on 94. and plus they look diffrent, light skinned and long nose.
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:20 am Iam a former moslem who converted to judaism because I believe It is the one true religion of Allah(subhana-watallah)
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:09 am Aamus xayawaanyahow,madaxa xune,maxaad ku faanee yahuudi ayaan ahay,kuley ogoow in laguu qora laguna su,aalayo waxaa aad ku hadashay..
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:18 am Iam a former moslem who converted to judaism because I believe It is the one true religion of Allah(subhana-watallah)" well, the only true religion of Allah is ISLAM. Allah says that in the Qur'an. INA DIINA CINDALAAHIL ISLAM.
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 12:45 pm Assalaamu Calaykum NOTE Anyone who convert from Islam to any religion is no more SOMALI! and they are AMHAAR or FALASHE, becouse the in EAST AFRICA is the root of all religions like midle east, and all MAJOR religions are found in this region like Islam Cristian and Judiasm. But keep one thing in mind there is no suchthing called Somali cristian or Somali Jew, the name SOMALI means SAMAALE wich means WANAAGLE wich means MUSLIM becouse only Muslim have the identity of SAMAALE. if you are not a Muslim you are FALAASHE or AMXAAR! no more SOMALI! Samali
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 01:02 pm "Anyone who convert from Islam to any religion is no more SOMALI!" islam and somali are not two interchangeable words and islam has nothing to do with somali--the same reason that islam has nothing to do with saudi. "they are AMHAAR" an amhaar can be a muslim and somali can be a gaal. "But keep one thing in mind there is no suchthing called Somali cristian or Somali Jew" if there is no such thing as a somali christian or a somali jew, then there is no such thing as an american christian or an american jew, right? "the name SOMALI means SAMAALE wich means WANAAGLE wich means MUSLIM becouse only Muslim have the identity of SAMAALE" that is not what i heard and it is not true. i heard the name somali came from soomaal which mean caana maal. wanaagle person could come from any nationality. muslim is the one who submits the will of Allah and accepts Allah as ONE and muhammad as His messanger.
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| | Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 03:13 pm Somali jew: Very interesting!. Mind share the perfectness and the truth OF THE TORAH?. I would love the help of someone like you. What do you say?. You got nothing to hide right?. You need to share what you found out. Since you hang out with us at this net, I have an advice for you. You sought refuge in people ALLAH spoke evil of them. Before you tell us the better points you found out in JUDAISM, I will leave with you the ACCOUNT OF ALLAH about how JEWS misbehaved and treated their books, How they arrogantly view themselves to this day the best of humanity, and how miserable they are in soul and in person, how they slew the prophets of allah AND PROPHETS cursed THEM. "5.78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses." "2.90 Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the chastisement of those who reject Faith." "91. When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Has sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have you slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if you did indeed believe?" 92. There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet you worshipped the calf (even) after that, and you did behave wrongfully. 93. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you them Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)": They said:" We hear, and we disobey:" And their hearts were filled (with the love) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if you have any faith!" 94. Say: "If the last Home, with Allah, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek you for death, if you are sincere." 95. But they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. And Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers. 96. You will indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes he could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For Allah sees well all that they do. "4.46 Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear, may you not hear"; and "Ráìná"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "We hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah had cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe."
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 05:44 am Mahamood! there were somali jews.....we have somali christians, animists and muslims......the lived in mogadishu.......I don't know where they r today, but somalis were very tolerant... As to the convertees may allah guide them back to the islamic faith. WE can not judge...let us leave the judgement to allah, the gracious We had few indians and pakistanis...I have seen some of there in sweden and england...they have been granted refugee status..after all they are somalis too....even though they originally came from those countries. The few i have seen LOVE somalia and somalis....... To all other muslims: some of you don't know what you wrote Islam does not forbid and infact enourages tolerance towards religous minorities...so, be carefull what you say..... If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist, it is not his her foult and that is ok with me as long as he respects the laws of the country (muslim country.......the laws of somalia are debatable.) So, stop thinking of your felllow somalis as infidels........ just to remind you that we have somalis that are munaafiqiin (hypocrites)......are they really muslims????? so, stop polticizing the faith of other somalis... I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:08 am "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist" when a child is born in a somali, a jew, a christian or an animist home, he or she is born as a muslim. "it is not his her foult" but what if he or she grows up and does not accept islam when he or she hears it? whose fault is that he dies as non-muslim? his or her fault, right? "just to remind you that we have somalis that are munaafiqiin (hypocrites)......are they really muslims????" there are hypocrites who call themselves muslims. only Allah knows what is in their heart. "I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed." but do you consider yourself also somali jews, somali christians, somali animists, somali indian, or somali pakistan or somali african? ;-)
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:31 am Asad here we go again! Wanaagsane said this: I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed. Your answer was this: but do you consider yourself also somali jews, somali christians, somali animists, somali indian, or somali pakistan or somali african? ;-) What is wrong whit your answer ASAD? if u don,t know by now.....May Allah help u!
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:43 am "What is wrong whit your answer ASAD?" that was a question i asked you. i was not giving you an answer. you did not even asked a question when you said "I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed", did you? "if u don,t know by now.....May Allah help u!" i do not know. that is why i asked you the question. aamiin.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:45 am "What is wrong whit your answer ASAD?" that was a question i asked you. i was not giving you an answer. you did not even asked a question when you said "I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed", did you? "if u don,t know by now.....May Allah help u!" i do not know. that is why i asked the question. aamiin.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 07:52 am Asad u were right it was not a Question, but if some one says to u: "I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed." full stop he/she mean it. Don,t u thing it was silly Question to ask: "but do you consider yourself also somali jews, somali christians, somali animists, somali indian, or somali pakistan or somali african? ;-)" How can be some one who consider him/herself Muslim olso Consider Him/herself all the other thing u Mention above????? Don,t u thing by now all your Q&A are really non-sonse? you just write things whit out thinking.....do u you ever heard yourself or others? NO! Learn the Skills, to Read other ppl's minds or give up your no-salt argument....that if you want get any mature answer....otherwise for ppl's sake don,t ask and don,t answer! peace
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:17 am "u were right it was not a Question" thank you. "Don,t u thing it was silly Question to ask: "but do you consider yourself also somali jews, somali christians, somali animists, somali indian, or somali pakistan or somali african? ;-)" no, i do not think the question was silly. "How can be some one who consider him/herself Muslim olso Consider Him/herself all the other thing u Mention above?????" well, there are people who said on this page that there are somalis who are jews and muslims. "they decendent of jews people, but they live in somalia and they are somalis. and they are muslim." wanaagsane, himself, said that "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist it is not his her foult" "Don,t u thing by now all your Q&A are really non-sonse?" no, my questions are fine, but you think they are not. "you just write things whit out thinking.....do u you ever heard yourself or others? NO!" well, i'm not the one confused of what is a question and what is an answer. read before you write, okay. "Learn the Skills, to Read other ppl's minds" i can not read other people's mind. i'm not capable of doing that. ;-) "or give up your no-salt argument....that if you want get any mature answer....otherwise for ppl's sake don,t ask and don,t answer!" i told you that i don't listen when people tell me what i can ask or can not answer on here.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:52 am "Learn the Skills, to Read other ppl's minds" anonymous, unlike you, i'm not capable of reading the mind of a person. i rather ask questions than read minds. ;-)
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 09:21 am Asa anonymous, unlike you, i'm not capable of reading the mind of a person. i rather ask questions than read minds. ;-) LOOOOOOOOOOOOL.....I know it all this time you are out of the real world. Learn how to read other ppl minds=Learn what others mean b4 u answer on your own way! remembers, you are the one who tray to answer every one around here......while they don,t even ask you your opinion......So am telling you this Asad......Mr know nothing.....your Veiws are not welcame ........therefore if you can,t learn how to understand others Veiws......then shut your BIG mouth........cuz you have no mind to Think......your MIND is seprate from you as Hakima says........LOL The world is not Black and white as you think.....others have a mind to think unlike yours.......so when you learn, others think different from you, only then you can learn to understand others Veiws! A nd remember, you don,t born whit those Skills you Learn somewhere call School.......so my advice is go back to School and socialise whit others.......then you will know what I mean!....LOL peace If you are not Celever enough to understand what other ppl mean.......do us a fevour and dispear from this Page. one more think don,t bother to write me back until you get a MIND! peace peace
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:54 am I think these people want scape from the DEATH SENTENCE from the MUSLIM COURTS when they go back home (SOMALIA) becouse islam respects other religions, and they want tell us that they were JEWS or CRISTIANS long ago to allow them live in SOMALIA with their new EVIL and SATANIC beleives. I'm SOMALIAN like the rest of somalis who have no respect for the MURTADS and we know before the cevil war the SOMALIS were 100% Muslims and I'm sure you're decieved during this period of the the civel war which was the purpose of this war created by the AMHAARO to devide SOMALIA wheter in thier beleaves or thier unity, keep one think in mind no ROOM for you among us in SOMALIA, you are lucky you made new home in the WEST. Somali
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:10 pm "Learn how to read other ppl minds=Learn what others mean b4 u answer on your own way!" i can not know what others are thinking of unless i ask and get answers from them. i told you i didn't answer question. i asked the question. by the way, learning how to read other ppl's mind and learning what others mean is not possible for me. i can not be in their mind. maybe you have the skills to be in the mind of a person. ;-) "remembers, you are the one who tray to answer every one around here......while they don,t even ask you your opinion" this is a public forums, isn't it? "So am telling you this Asad......Mr know nothing.....your Veiws are not welcame" i was wondering if you were one of the a dictators back home. this is a free forums and it is not your home. i do not need your welcome, do i? ;-) "therefore if you can,t learn how to understand others Veiws" the only way i can understand others views is to ask question, right? ;-) "then shut your BIG mouth" lol "cuz you have no mind to Think......your MIND is seprate from you as Hakima says........LOL" lol "others have a mind to think unlike yours" i can learn what they are thinking of by asking questions, not by reading their mind, right? ;-) "so when you learn, others think different from you, only then you can learn to understand others Veiws!" i would not read mind. i told you i do not have the ability to read minds. ;-) "And remember, you don,t born whit those Skills you Learn somewhere call School." which school that teachings how to get the skills to read the mind of people? ;-) "so my advice is go back to School and socialise whit others.......then you will know what I mean!....LOL" well, when i socialize with others, i ask questions; i do not attempt to read their mind. "If you are not Celever enough to understand what other ppl mean" i told you that i'm not clever enough to understand what people mean unless they tell me. i do not have the skills to read the mind of others. :-) "do us a fevour and dispear from this Page." i will disappear from here if it is your home page. is it? ;-) "one more think don,t bother to write me back until you get a MIND!" lol
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:17 pm "I think these people want scape from the DEATH SENTENCE from the MUSLIM COURTS when they go back home (SOMALIA) becouse islam respects other religions" i did not know that somalia had muslim courts! were there muslim courts in somalia? "becouse islam respects other religions" that is rigt. "they want tell us that they were JEWS or CRISTIANS long ago to allow them live in SOMALIA with their new EVIL and SATANIC beleives." what about the evil doers in somalia who kill and terrorize other somalis? what kind of satinic and evil beliefs do they have?
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:58 pm wanaagsane. "some of you don't know what you wrote " Like what?. Never mind!. After all, you called yourself wanaagsane. Nin is faanshey waa lax is nuugtey lol!. "Islam does not forbid and infact enourages tolerance towards religous minorities...so, be carefull what you say..... " I smell a rat here. I am used to this tolerance deal which has a lot of evil underneath it. We can't let someone use islamic tolerance to abuse the tolerance hospitality. Like the above somali jew did. We will respond to him in kind. Deal with it. YOU CAN JOIN HIM TOO. I DON'T CARE. "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist, it is not his her foult" Wrong. No one is born a jew, a christian, or a disbeliever. Everyone is born in a state of islam(submission). Allah took COVENANT from the children of ADAM when they were in the state of spirits(ARWAAX). "7.172 When YOUR Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (Who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest you should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful": See that?. You made a promise. Everyone made a promise to his lord that they will stay obidient and submitted to him long ago. Children are in that state untill they become mature to make a decision. Unlike christianity that teaches WE ARE BORN SINFUL. Their parents can contribute to their being disbelievers of any kind. Be it a jewish disbeliever or christian polytheist. If you know something different as you indicated, why not tell us WANAAGSANE?. Changing tactics won't help anybody. What is your religion anyway?. YOU CAN TAKE THE FIFTH IF YOU WANT.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:35 pm My question was a simple one. I didn't realize that people would argue at each other and comment other people's comments who were commenting on comments previously commented. I knew that Indian and Pakistanis used to live and had shops in Xamaar Weyne and they could speak fluently Somali, cause I met them. I was also asking about Somali jews and I got my answer. I know also of some Somali christians till today. I wouldn't be surprised if Somalis converted to Judaism, cause since Somalis came to the west, they have gained every status (pop stars, models, business men, terrorists, homosexuals, DJ's, convert to christianism, alcoholism, drag queen, movie actor,... ). I can give you their names if you kindly ask them.
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| | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 04:51 pm "I didn't realize that people would argue at each other and comment other people's comments who were commenting on comments previously commented" that is what happens here----commenting the comments. the fact you are realizing this and even yourself commenting what the other commentators comment is the indicative, the logical, and the critical. some of us are people who are addicted to cynicism; others just make a point and some others are just goofing around. ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 01:36 am Formerguest!!!! thanks for the quotation from the holly quran....But do u really what you are talking about????? Let me ask you a simple question: if u are for instance born into an animist family (allah forbid)...and raised as a christian is that you fault?.....when a person reaches the age of adulthood, it is imperativ on him to seek allah subxaanllahu wa tacalaa's mercy and come and embrace islam. I can sence that you have not read my comments seriously and analysed it...you took an instance similar to that one taken by almost all somalis... Dogmatism...."I am the only who knows the truth"..... All I was trying to explain to our brother Maxamuud was about the presence of jews in somalia and other groups...... my dear brother you wrote this : "Changing tactics won't help anybody. What is your religion anyway?. YOU CAN TAKE THE FIFTH IF YOU WANT"... Í find this very offending...but i will leave the judgement to the almighy unlike you....but i will request you to be more more specific regarding: 1: Tactics...what do u mean???? 2: Did i indicate otherwise than that I am a muslim? 3: what is the fifth? Do u want to be funny or what?.... May allah forgive us for our sins----- asad!!!! a reasonable person with reasonable intelligence and Allah fearing will ONLY note from my previous article that I was born a muslim, still a muslim and will remain a muslim.......inspite of this you appeared to play double fiddle with my article and questioned my faith..... please reread the whole article and understand my messenger b4 you opt for baseless critism.. the name wanaagsane is a somali name ...and i don't think i will need to translate it to somali or arabic..... just you are called "asad2 the lion in arabic does not mean that you live on eating preys or that you have clowns and big teeth...... You wrote " nin faanshe waa ri isnuugtay" a marvelous somali saying: Laakin waa suaale miyaan isfanshe anigu???????????????+......do i sence that your somali is not one of perfection: MAY ALLAH LEAD US TO THE STRAGHT PATH..... assalamu calaykum Wanaagsane and Asad!....
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 03:34 am Wanaagsane I feel you man I am the first Anonymous, who comment what Asad writes to u. These guys don,t understand, to discuss things in Polite way......instead creating Arguments which is irelavent to the first Statment. however, br just ignore them, cuz any one who have a right Mind, can understand your Point.......Ie if some one born .....non muslim family it is not his/her Fault to be what ever he/she became.......even when the Person became Mature, it is only Allah's will to guide that Person......no one can miss-guide those Allah guides. Asad you Lost me again! not only me but others as well......LOL Formerguest what happened to you? did Asad teach u how to be unreasonable? Br, Wanaagsane explain u guys very simle and understandable statement......there is no need to call him all those names and be hostile to him One more time u guys need to learn, how to discuss......not how to be hostile and argument whit no base to support whit your argument! be openmind. peace all peace.
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 05:19 am "a reasonable person with reasonable intelligence and Allah fearing will ONLY note from my previous article that I was born a muslim, still a muslim and will remain a muslim.......inspite of this you appeared to play double fiddle with my article and questioned my faith" well, any muslim who has reasonable intelligence would not say that people (a somali person, for example) is born to be born a jew, a christian or animist. i pointed out to you that when a child is born in a somali, a jew, a christian or an animist home, he or she is born as a muslim. you do not believe this. read what you said: "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist". no one happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist. every child happens to be born as a muslim and it does not matter what his or her parents are. if you do not believe this, then and differ what the Qur'an says, then you should examine your faith. . ;-) "Asad you Lost me again! not only me but others as well......LOL" i always get kick out of your desperateness. sometimes, you beg me to not come there; other times you order me like a dictator and now you wish me to lose (i do not know what). maybe i lost to read mind and instead asked question. ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 05:28 am "just you are called "asad2 the lion in arabic does not mean that you live on eating preys or that you have clowns and big teeth......" that is exactly right. just because someone’s name is wanaagsane (a someone who differs what the Qur'an says about the state of faith in children are born) does not mean that this wanaagsame is a muslim, just as every person called asad is not a muslim. there are christian arabs who speak in arabic that named after the name muhammad. ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 07:27 am Asad if a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist, it is not his her foult and that is ok with me as long as he respects the laws of the country (muslim country.......the laws of somalia are debatable.) Wanaagsane, means if somali child born a non_muslim somali Family (DAMIIN FAR WAAWAYN BAA WAX LOOGU QORAA?.LOL ....HE NEVER SAY TO U THE CHILD IS NOT A mUSLIM WHEN HE/SHE BORN. sO PLEASE LEARN HOW TO RESPOND WHIT UNDERSTANDING....IF U CAN,T UNDERSTAND OTHER PPL'S POINTS THEN DON,T RESPONT..HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TEL U THIS>.LOL use your energy in positive way.what Sad life do u have to re-act this way to your Muslim brothers & sisters? YOUR RESPOND IS: ell, any muslim who has reasonable intelligence would not say that people (a somali person, for example) is born to be born a jew, a christian or animist. i pointed out to you that when a child is born in a somali, a jew,a christian or an animist home, he or she is born as a muslim. you do not believe this. read what you said,somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist". no one happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist. every child happens to be born as a muslim and it does not matter what his or her parents are. if you do not believe this, then and differ what the Qur'an says, then you should examine your faith. . ;-) peace
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 07:39 am "Wanaagsane, means if somali child born a non_muslim somali Family (DAMIIN FAR WAAWAYN BAA WAX LOOGU QORAA?.LOL ....HE NEVER SAY TO U THE CHILD IS NOT A mUSLIM WHEN HE/SHE BORN." well, i told you before, i do not read the mind of a person and what they mean. i read what they write. "if a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist". so reading what wanaagsane wrote, i do not see this "if somali child born a non_muslim somali Family". remember, i am not capable of reading minds; therefore, i'm DAMIIN when it comes to reading minds. i do not have the skills you have in reading the mind of a person. ;-) "sO PLEASE LEARN HOW TO RESPOND WHIT UNDERSTANDING" i can only understand what is written, not what is meant. ;-) "IF U CAN,T UNDERSTAND OTHER PPL'S POINTS THEN DON,T RESPONT HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TEL U THIS>.LOL" and how many times i have to tell you that i don't listen when people order me and tell me what i can and can not do on public forumss. ;-) "use your energy in positive way." do you think you are using your energy in a positive way when you beg and order people not to come here? ;-) "what Sad life do u have to re-act this way to your Muslim brothers & sisters" lol. i told you that i'm not here to baby-sit. ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 08:07 am Asad i am not capable of reading minds; therefore, i'm DAMIIN when it comes to reading minds. i do not have the skills you have in reading the mind of a person. ;-) LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Atlast! You Admit you are DAMIIN.that is it..all I want show all this time is to SEE yourself, you are DAMIIN.....so stop your DAMIIN Thoughts..Think about do u thing any one want A DMIIN respond or Veiws? don,t thing so ....can u see every one here is NOT DAMIIN....and they don,t need a DAMIIN Respond....so ask Allah to teach u waht others know....u DAMIIN FOOL!
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 10:26 am Wanaagsane. Simple. The tolerance had been abused in the forumss by many to express their disdain and hatred towards islam. I suspect anybody who preaches one sided tolerance. That is what I meant tactics. I couldn't tell if you were a muslim or nonmuslim. I had to ask. Sorry now that I know you are a muslim. Being somali doesn;t automatically mean a muslim these days. We have to ask to our dissappointment. I don't mind to have little or no knowledge at all. I loose nothing by admitting that. Self aggrandisement is not my main objective. I don't like the fact that nonmuslims and disbelievrs come to this forums to intimidate us into arguments about their disbelieve. It is not one time, twice or thrice but forever since somalinet was born. It is everyday we have to deal with these people. I have yet to see anybody else making a comment towards those people. If we did, others showed up only to condemn our efforts. What is that supposed to mean?. Anyway, I don't like arguments. I will sit back and wait for usurpers like the somali jewish guy to come back or polytheists who think they are oblidged to convert god believing muslims. Before then, peace to you. And no offence my brother, I don't appreciate your weakness. You don't baby sit people when they are bent on your downfall.
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:00 am Wanaagsane. I feel bad about the way I treated you. It was misunderstanding between us. I told you why in my earlier posting. I don't trust tolerance that favours disbelief. I also don't like your view of dogmatism. Islam is always right as a religion. That is not dogma. I don't get why a muslim would say that too. Anyway, let us cool off. Let someone else who deserves my wrath take over the arguments. I know some guys will show up picking up where you leave off. Funny and cunning isn't it. You gotta love those pinchers. Again, I apologise for my assumption of you being nonmuslim. I didn't say you were but I asked. If you have been long enough in the forumss you would have seen people swearing to be muslims and abuse the somali culture every turn. Then later, when pressed hard, confess their disbeleive. The place had been mined for well meaning people like you. I hope you understand my point. Anonymous. What buggs me is the fact that I don't know your gender!. I would like to know if you don't mind. No offence. Are you a bro or sis?.
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:00 am Wanaagsane. I feel bad about the way I treated you. It was misunderstanding between us. I told you why in my earlier posting. I don't trust tolerance that favours disbelief. I also don't like your view of dogmatism. Islam is always right as a religion. That is not dogma. I don't get why a muslim would say that too. Anyway, let us cool off. Let someone else who deserves my wrath take over the arguments. I know some guys will show up picking up where you leave off. Funny and cunning isn't it. You gotta love those pinchers. Again, I apologise for my assumption of you being nonmuslim. I didn't say you were but I asked. If you have been long enough in the forumss you would have seen people swearing to be muslims and abuse the somali culture every turn. Then later, when pressed hard, confess their disbeleive. The place had been mined for well meaning people like you. I hope you understand my point. Anonymous. What buggs me is the fact that I don't know your gender!. I would like to know if you don't mind. No offence. Are you a bro or sis?..
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:26 am "You Admit you are DAMIIN. that is it. all I want show all this time is to SEE yourself, you are DAMIIN" yes, i have been admitting and telling you that i'm not capable of understanding what is in the mind of a person. yes, i'm DAMIIN when it comes to reading minds. i do not have the skills you have in reading the mind of a person. now go celebrate since you saw what you have been missing, finally. ;-) "so stop your DAMIIN Thoughts" i told you, i do not take orders from no one. i will not listen if you cry like a baby and continue to beg me to stop. by the way, you didn't answer: is this your home page? ;-) "Think about do u thing any one want A DMIIN respond or Veiws? don,t thing so" i told you that i do not care what any one wants or does not want. ;-) "can u see every one here is NOT DAMIIN" maybe i didn't go the mind reading school which you said you went. ;-) "and they don,t need a DAMIIN Respond" they should beg me too as you beg me to stop. ;-) "so ask Allah to teach u waht others know" if you are saying that Allah gave you and others the ability to know what is in the heart and mind of a person, then good for you. however, i do not think Allah will give me the ability to know what is in the mind of a person. ;-) "u DAMIIN FOOL!" lol
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:37 am Fomerguest Now you talking, i always like your discussion, cuz u don,t base them unreasonable argument....infact the only argument u have it was whit a Mad_Mac....and always u bring whit a prove whatever u write . So, i was really surprise when I read your last respond for...wanaagsane......for a minute I thought it was ASAD who using your Name......but unfortunetlly was you......lol However, you are Man enough to admit your mistakes and Oplgize, when you realise you been wrong....unlike ASAD......lol See, my br if you read what Wanaagsane Said....which was: I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed. Then , you will have understand easily what of his Faith.....my point is we guys all Muslim.......and Islam is religion whit Love and Tolarnce......so if when we ask each other one simle Question, we all get Emotional, and give other Person irelavent answer....or acuse the person some thing that has nothing to do whit him/her......then it is better to don,t discuss anything at all.......we supposed to be Educated and Openmind ppl.....who tray to think and understand what others mean b4 we just jump to the Keyboard. Anyway, since you ask me my gender........I am a Sister.....who happened to Love Islam and like to Learn more. peace
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 12:05 pm "for a minute I thought it was ASAD who using your Name......but unfortunetlly was you......lol" unfortunately or fortunately? ;-) "See, my br if you read what Wanaagsane Said....which was: I consider myself a muslim...and i don't hate my fellow somalis because of colour or creed." that is not how the sentence reads. this is how it reads without altering it: "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist, it is not his her foult and that is ok with me as long as he respects the laws of the country (muslim country.......the laws of somalia are debatable.)" oh! i forget, you knew what was in his mind when he wrote that or you read his mind later what he meant, right? ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 12:08 pm "I am a Sister.....who happened to Love Islam and like to Learn more." i told you that this place is not the right place to learn islam. there are better places where you can learn islam, sister. ;-)
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 06:58 pm Anon. I don't think I have daliil everytime I talk. The former vs asad deal is bugging me also. Asad is my mentor in case you didn't know. He knows a lot that I don't. We can be different, but each one of us has his unique personalities if that was your message. I thought he is easy going while I am rough and choose to hammer people hazely. I have no patience. Which can be disadvantage sometimes. By the way, You are tough for a lady. I think you fit in this crowd. I am wondering what your name could be. Just a thought. I am not asking for it. I respect your anonimity. See you around.
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 09:38 pm asslamu calaykum !! brother "former guest"....ok appology accepted..it is easy to misintepret, i was mot maybe so concise in my comments..... may allah the almight help us all and lead us to heaven. asad why don't we stop dithering about words and instead and go on? by the way guys, I think most somalis are good muslims ( a personal judgement) because we don't know what is in their souls.....but there are somalis who were born into other faiths....thus "our fellow countrymen". we share a common faith with all muslims and a common nationhood(debatable) with our fellow somalis. May allah help all somalis to embrace to islam and to unite. We know that we have somalis born outside a muslim country, and they need to be encouraged to embrace islam as their faith.... too much wrangling on race, religion will only make them to wonder...so let us show our brothers and sisters all the positive sides of our religion without getting on religious rehotics.... have a nice weekend and may allah help us all
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| | Friday, October 20, 2000 - 11:05 pm "asad why don't we stop dithering about words and instead and go on?" i'm not undermining words here; i'm, however, pointing out what i think are discrepancies here. "by the way guys, I think most somalis are good muslims ( a personal judgement) because we don't know what is in their souls.....but there are somalis who were born into other faiths....thus "our fellow countrymen" again, people are born only into islam, but their parents may be in other faiths. yes, they could be our fellow countrymen and yes, we should respect them as long as they respect. "We know that we have somalis born outside a muslim country, and they need to be encouraged to embrace islam as their faith" if the somalis are born outside 'muslim countries' and they choose to be non-muslims, yes they need to be encouraged to embrace islam as their faith, but if they never left islam, they already embraced islam by being muslims. if they do not know islam, then we can encourge them to learn their faith. "too much wrangling on race, religion will only make them to wonder" if there is too much wrangling on race or tribe, then religion is the only one that can somalis come together and unite. "so let us show our brothers and sisters all the positive sides of our religion without getting on religious rehotics" religion of islam is more than rhetorics; religion of islam (if it is practiced and accepted by all somalis) is the appeasing and the good word.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 12:01 am "Asad is my mentor in case you didn't know." i respect you too, my brother. "He knows a lot that I don't." i do not think so. ;-) "I thought he is easy going while I am rough and choose to hammer people hazely." maybe i'm calm and collected at most of the times when things get rough on here, which i can take, but i do not mind sometimes to dish it out too. ;-). nevertheless, although i stay out of the spewing-out of insults and the name calling, i really get the kick out of when the people like anonymous resorts to insults. ;-)
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 02:02 am Well, well, well... My Goodness! Half of you don't even know what you're talking about, and the rest of the people, they can't even comprehend half of the jibberish you were on about.. nationality has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion, so why are jews that happen to be somali are named "jewish somalis"..why do we not refer to these suckers as firewood for hellfire? for bloody well sake, i can't understand why half you yankees can't sy "american jews" or australian christians... damn, well to me they're all called firewood, and some of you should go back to somalia and go and learn your "cultural history". peace
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 07:14 am Salaamu Calaykum Waraxmatullaahi Wabarakaatuh Hello Brothers and Sisters, Let me tell you my opinion and the truth about this two (Jews & Somalis). The Jews have no religion at all there is no such a Judaism, the followers of the Torah were Muslims Somalis hate deeply the unbelievers, while we have light there is no need for dark, sick, cursed religions like the Jew. the blood suckers of the weak the vampires. when death comes to you and those who like your acts will for sure go to hell fire, even here in the world tell me one Jew who is happy, my be they have money but walaahi they are crying inside Allah is always the winner and the followers of his true religion Islam. He make the Jew sick, stressed, Depression, fear, family problems, greed, Alcohol and drug etc. But when Allah loves you we don't have all that and inside and out we are happy and proud. and that is why the Jews scared of the Muslims all the time. To the Somali Jews if there are any just say we are "flasha" like the Amhara Jews and never say we are Somali and never come to Somalia which will became (your Grave).
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 09:58 am Formerguest "Asad is my mentor in case you didn't know." That is good if you respect your Follow brother in Islam....That is all I want him to do Respect others. "By the way, You are tough for a lady" do u thing I am tough for a Lady? are you one of those who Beleive Women can,t think right from Wrong? hope not!. You ask me what my name will be, If I want choose any name will be ( Muslimah or Muslim sis).That is how I like to be known. Thanks peace Show up more offten.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 10:04 am "That is all I want him to do Respect others." i still respect my fellow muslim (or muslima) even if she or he insults me. ;-)
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 11:12 am Guys U need to go back Reading ...They re some somalians who claimed to be Jews Like ppl from NOrth of somalia mainly Isak clan u know !!!...I read that from newspaper. but if it is not true Please Accept my Apology ...I just am telling what i read... 
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 11:35 am Anonymous Your theory sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Allah will ask you the judgement day, Judging the others!
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 11:35 am "I read that from newspaper. but if it is not true Please Accept my Apology ...I just am telling what i read" most newspaper reporters do not even know themselves the information they have is accurate. so no need for apology. you read a report in a newspaper which can be false and your are reporting it. can you tell us the newspaper's name and the date? or can you copy the information on the newspaper onto here?
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 03:19 pm Anony. " are you one of those who Beleive Women can,t think right from Wrong? hope not!. " No. Unless we take them out of the human cycle and treat them like animated objects. You misunderstood the toughness. I meant, you come across unwavering and insistent. Many girls visit here who want to share their opinion, but most of them think it is male dominion and choose not to speak. So, for a woman to speak like you do, I thought you must be tough and resilient. Now, I made myself a little more comprehensive to you I hope.
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| | Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 11:44 pm Assalamu calaykum!!! Bismillahi raxmani raxiimi what is going on????? Some of you don't know what you are talking about!!! Shall we have a debate based on issues of facts and stop this childish behaviour!!!! Come on.... hatred will take us no where. Some of us live in infidel countries...we ran away from somalia (chased away" by muslims, and we have been treated badly by some so called islamic countries. All i said was that, a somali can be a muslim, an animist or jew for that matter. I am for an islamic somalia, but that is hard to realise specially with views expressed by some of you...religious bigotery will take us no where. but religion tolerance will lead us to a straight path and to fullfill our dreams for a better somalia. some of you appear to be experts in islam: Did islam state we should hate our neighbours? be they muslims, christian or jews? It is unfortunate that when people debate such issues of importance, some of us hide behind the holly quran. I, former guest and anonymous were debating this issue with a high abstract level...and some of you just want to express opinions for the sake of it............... I stand by my words when i say a somali can be born into a christian family, a jew etc...race and religion are seperable ...very seperable indeed..... a jew is a person who believes in judaism, a christian is a person who blvs in christianity and a muslim beleieves in islam.. But we have somalis who believe in other religions and a somali at the same time. let us pray for those non-muslims to become muslims and let us not allienate them.. religious fanatism will only divide us... p.s i am a man assalamu calaykum
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 01:00 am "Some of you don't know what you are talking about!!!" and, you do? "Shall we have a debate based on issues of facts" just the facts, man. "and stop this childish behaviour!!!!" like what? "Come on.... hatred will take us no where" true, but who hates whom here? "Some of us live in infidel countries. we ran away from somalia (chased away" by muslims)" no one is disputing this fact, right? "and we have been treated badly by some so called islamic countries." first, there is no such thing as 'islamic countries'. the fact is that there are places in this world that somalis receive unjustly treatments from non-muslims too (like racism), but there are places where the somalis brought bad things into themselves (like corruptions). "All i said was that, a somali can be a muslim, an animist or jew for that matter." actually, that is not all you said. you said this which was a false statement: "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist" i corrected you many times and told you that people in general are born being as muslims. no one happens to be born a non-muslim. "I am for an islamic somalia, but that is hard to realise specially with views expressed by some of you." yes, some of us here. "religious bigotery will take us no where. but religion tolerance will lead us to a straight path and to fullfill our dreams for a better somalia." yes, as i said it before: if there is too much wrangling on race or tribe (bigotry), then religion is the only one that can make somalis come together and unite. "some of you appear to be experts in islam" i'm no expert in islam. "Did islam state we should hate our neighbours? be they muslims, christian or jews?" no, on the contrary, islamic teachings say love thy neighbor, but love your muslim brother more. is that unfair? i do not think so. "It is unfortunate that when people debate such issues of importance, some of us hide behind the holly quran." well, to tell you the truth: the Qura'n is best thing a muslim can hide behind. without the Qu'ran being our shield, we would not succeed. we need the Qur'an more than anything else. "I, former guest and anonymous were debating this issue with a high abstract level...and some of you just want to express opinions for the sake of it" well, as i said it before: i'm just pointing out what i think are discrepancies make by you and others here. there is nothing wrong expressing my opinion for the sake of it, is it? "I stand by my words when i say a somali can be born into a christian family, a jew etc" well, that is not what you said before. you said "If a somali happens to be born a jew, a christian or animist". this statement of yours is impossible. no one can be born a jew, a christian or animist. your family can be in another faith other than islam, but you can only be born in the state of islam which makes you a muslim until you reach the age of maturity. "race and religion are seperable ...very seperable indeed" right. "a jew is a person who believes in judaism, a christian is a person who blvs in christianity and a muslim beleieves in islam.." right. when many jews and christians return to islam, they return to the state they were born as children. "But we have somalis who believe in other religions and a somali at the same time." well, jewish people and white/black american people can have islamic beliefs and be muslims while at the same time them being in the jewish/african/european american race too. "let us pray for those non-muslims to become muslims and let us not allienate them" that is right. i know that muslims love to see the non-muslim coming to or entering (or returning to or reverting to) islam. ;-) "religious fanatism will only divide us." but, religious compromise will only divide us too. sticking to the truth (islam) to the teeth (without comprimise) will only give us unity, peace and happiness. ;-)
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 01:41 am again I agree with Asad. <smile> A portugese friend of mine has returned to the fold of Islam,its so cool.He is amazed. every day we discover words like "Inshallah" in his language, corrupted to "ojalah"..which now means if only "religious fantatism will only divide us".. on this point i agree with Former guest and his anaylsis of onesided tolerance. Yes we should maintain love in the face of hate, but don't imagine that liberty is in pusuit of your happiness, liberty is concerned with only with power have you seen those application forms that ask you your "religious preference".. like it is some interchangable favourite colour,Ya Allah!
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 07:34 pm Madmac, Asad, Formerguest, Anonymous "ASAAMU- CALAYKA" I know you all are spies madmac is a spy from Ireland who is a kafir, Asad is also another kafir spy for yaduud, both of you are after Islam But let me tell you something, this religion is protected by Allah and you greedy for money will perish IInsha allah, Nacalatulah calal Yahuud wa nasaara, I pray and ask Allah to blind you so that you might not read and write, Aaamiin,Aaamiin Because you are fighting with his true religion and you will never win. All religions will be rejected except ISLAM. and the devels will go to hell.
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| | Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 07:44 pm Asaamu Calayka Asad, There is no compromise between Islam and Jews and christains, Only we will be brothers if you become a true Muslim that is it. Allah has mentioned you in our Quran that you are our enamies and the enamies of Islam specialy the Jew. You will be the wood of the hellifire so, please never waste your time, All islam knows all about you. you are in every page of the quran. The only friendship between us will be "Lakum Diinukum walyadiin" stay in your dark believe and us in the light. Asamu calayka madmac.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:05 am Yuhuuddile. For your info, the greetings of a deisbeliever is not "assalamu caleyka". It is "assalaamu calaa manittabacal hudaa", Which means "peace be upon those who follow the guidance". Don't be emmotional when you read postings lest you make the wrong judgement of people. And learn islam very well to be safe.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:09 am Asad I can't believe Muslima insulted you!!! Of all people. Mr. Die-Hard, Qur'an thumper himself. You see, no one is immune here. And now, to top things off, we have the reincarnation of The Mad Mullah himself here on the net. Yahuudile (who the hell named you anyway?) if there is such a thing as reincarnation (which I know you Muslims think is malarky) you have to either be Said Abdullah Hassan (did I get his name right, I always have trouble with it?) or a close associate. You think that Formerguest (who despises me) is some sort of close friend with moi? Did you take LSD before you logged on?? Helloooooo, anyone home there? See Asad, this is what happens when people take religion too far. How was it that P.J. O'Rourke described it? "The bad idea coming from Woodrow Wilson was this notion that all nations had to have a state. Now everyone who parts their hair differently, speaks with their own funny twang or has their own pet name for god, wants their own country. The next bad idea was what people in this state were suppose to do - kill everyone with different hair."
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:12 am Yo Formerguest, am I to infer that by that greeting Peace is not suppose to be upon those who do not follow "the guidance"?
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:33 am MAD. Your inference is somewhat off the mark. It is made up to the person to be included in the prayer or not. Remember, the being we are praying to is ALLAH. Since a disbeliever has severed his relationship with ALLAH, we follow the safe passage of making the prayer upto the person. If you acccept ALLAH as your creator and true god, and mohammed to be his last messenger, pray five times a day etc..... Then, you can be greeted with certainty. The uncertainty and the condition of the prayer is due to the situation of the one being prayed for. Look at the meaning once again; If you don't follow the guidance of ALLAH, Who is to blame?. You might feel bad naturally, the same way I would have felt if I was left out, but then, I would be smart enough to know it is my decision that excluded me in the prayer. Why not become a muslim and share all that we cherish if you be telling the truth and are concerned this much?. I feel bad myself after seeing the way you express your feelings of resentment. I pray that ALLAH guides you to his path. We will be brothers forever, and one big family as well.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:45 am Formerguest I think if I were to decide to become a Muslim it would have happened already. The fact is that while I believe that the Qur'an contains some truth (for example I belive Mohammed was a prophet, I believe there is one God (although I also believe he might have "helpers"  ) I do not believe that the Qur'an itself is devine. Ergo I do not qualify. additionally I do not believe that all other faiths are "wrong". Essentially I have concluded there are grains of truth nd inaccuracies in most beliefs (although I have to admit I think Hinduism is too strange for me). I don't know if you've ever read any material from Khalil Gibran, but he once wrote "say not I have found the path, say I have found a path." I essentially subscribe to that. Thanks for the thought though. I did not realize that the greeting "As Salam Alekum" was a prayer. Incidentally, I use that greeting all the time. But for me it's just a greeting, not a prayer.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 03:00 am Mad correction sahib it would have happened again..if you were a muslim it would of happened again. with regards to "when people take religion to far" john lennon said he was down with "whatever gets you through the night".. we are all in the same condition here, whethr you turn to Achocol, AL-Islam or a werid non-commital fushion of different religions <Smile>
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 03:03 am "Asad I can't believe Muslima insulted you!!!" i still respect her, though. ;-) "You see, no one is immune here." well, everyone has their opinion. as i said, i can take insults as well as dish it out too myself, but i rather take and recieve than dish it out. i know that i sometimes make people (included you) get frustrated when i do not agree with them. i enjoy the insults. yahuudile is an example. ;-). he said asad is kafir spy for yaduud. ;-) "See Asad, this is what happens when people take religion too far." no, it is the other way around, mad mac. if people would have taken too far and practiced it, this would not happened. ;-).
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 03:17 am "The fact is that while I believe that the Qur'an contains some truth (for example I belive Mohammed was a prophet, I believe there is one God (although I also believe he might have "helpers" I do not believe that the Qur'an itself is devine." that is not fact, mad mac. the fact is that what contians the Qur'an are all truth. the Qu'ran is divine and muhammad recited it, taught it and practiced it with the help of Allah. there was no other helper, but Allah. there is a verse in the Qu'ran that says the it is a lie when people claimed that muhammad have gotten "helpers" from people who taught him the verses of the Qu'ran. people said (like you are saying now) the jin and others helped him to come up with the Qura'n when they could not challenge the Qur'an. ;-). mad mac, when you say the Qur'an contains some truth, do you mean that the part you do not believe that that is false is the existance of day of judgement which will take place in the future and the part that says people will end up either hell and heaven because of their deeds? ;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 04:32 am Asad You did read the part that I followed the phrase of "the fact is" with "I believe" right???? So, The fact is, I believe that the Qur'an is not devine. But you already know that. We've had this conversation. Let me ask you something else. Common indirectly raised it. If all people are born as Muslims, doesn't this ergo mean that everyone who now is now delcard himself as something other than a Muslim is an apostate?
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:13 am well, mad mac, i am disputing what is not the fact here---which is the statement of yours that says muhammad had "helpers" and the Qur'an is not divine. i do not care what you believe and do not believe. when you say that what you believe is a fact, you should have better brought evidence along with that statement of yours to back up your so called fact. if you do not bring evidence that muhammad had "helpers" and the Qur'an is not divine, then your statment is going to be false. ;-) "If all people are born as Muslims, doesn't this ergo mean that everyone who now is now delcard himself as something other than a Muslim is an apostate?" lets say that you were born in the state of islam, but you were raised to believe that you were not a muslim in the non-muslim houshold you grew up. you were led to believe that whatever your parents raised you with was the truth. you believe yoursef that you are christian or whatever. you never had the chance to declare yourself as a muslim. apostate means traitor. ;-) someone who was a mature muslim (and asane muslim) and declared himself or herself to be a muslim(ma), but later says he is no longer a muslim is a traitor (an apostate). ;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:18 am Allow me to try and clear this up, forgive me everyone if i step out of my league, i am certainly not as well learned as Asad and Formerguest..and from what i have read of Alisya, i feel she would outclass me too. Mac, i don't think that you ever stop worshiping Allah, for example the most hidden of Allah's blessings the breath is a form of worship, so you cannot actually be out of worshiping Allah, whether you are concious or not of the fact that you are indeed in submission to Allah is another matter, i think that is where the question of being a apostate bit comes in..where i exit..<smile> (i don't fully know what the word means, and if i did, i would still struggle to answer ) (correct me folks if i am wrong on the first half)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:38 am "Mac, i don't think that you ever stop worshiping Allah" is not a person does not worship Allah that makes him a non-muslim. take for example, a person who calls himself a christian. he will tell you that he worships and submits to God, but he is actually worshipping and submitting to something other than God or he is worshipping God along with someone else (he is doing shirk). a person who rejects the existance of the day of judgement, hell, heaven, parts of the Qur'an is doing kufur and is not indeed in submission to Allah. he rejects Allah's blessings.;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:01 am Asad When I say "the fact is I believe....." this does not mean I am stating what I believe is fact. This is a figure of speech. If English is your second language then this might account for the misunderstanding. If I say "the fact is I believe God is dead." That doesn't mean that God being dead is a fact. The fact is in the belief. I might say, "the fact is I believe Asad is wrong about Islam." This doesn't mean Asad is wrong. It means my belief in his error is a fact. Little Humor: "God is dead" - Nitchke "Nitchke is dead" - God
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:24 am Are kuffar's not in Submission to Allah ?, they can't break out of his laws.. they can't fly , they rely on his substenece etc?. Does this not mean that they are in submission to Allah thus worshipping him, but both ignorant of his blessings and his teachings?. With the Christian example, a Christian will commit shirk, but is he/she really not worshipping Allah by his very (although very badly)existance?
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:38 am "When I say "the fact is I believe....." this does not mean I am stating what I believe is fact. This is a figure of speech. If English is your second language then this might account for the misunderstanding." when i say to you that if you do not bring evidence that muhammad had "helpers" and the Qur'an is not divine, then your statement (aloso your belief) is going to be false. what part of my statement (which i happen to believe ) don't you understand, mad mac? ;-). if your statement is a figure of speech, mine is literal, direct, unembellished. ;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:44 am "Are kuffar's not in Submission to Allah ? they can't break out of his laws.. they can't fly , they rely on his substenece etc?. Does this not mean that they are in submission to Allah thus worshipping him, but both ignorant of his blessings and his teachings?." what makes them kufar is their rejection of the truth that is inside of them (the fitra). i can deny my mother and say she is not my mother, but she is still my mother. i can break the ties with her, but i can not break the blood connection, can i? do you see what i mean? "With the Christian example, a Christian will commit shirk, but is he/she really not worshipping Allah by his very (although very badly)existance?" yes, but his worship is not acceptable. in fact, his worship of God (along with other gods) is what will put him in hell.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:50 am thats what i figured, i knew the worship was not acceptable..and that hellfire but for the grace of Allah awaits them
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:56 am kufars and mushrikiin do have thier chances while they are on earth. after death, there awaits them gracelessness of the hereafter (hell). this is in the Qur'an. :-(
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:44 am That settles it! <smile>
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:58 am Yep that settles it! Oh brother.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:02 am mad mac, he is a muslim brother, remember? unlike you, he does not reject what is in the Qur'an (the existance of hell and heaven). ;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 01:04 pm May Allah Almighty forgive us all(Amen!!!) I'm really flabbergasted and dumbfound at reading your points of disagreement. Don't you all see, it is all about a game of words. I ask you, what difference does it make whether you're a Somali Muslim, a Somali Jew, a Somali Christian, a Somali Animist or you're let's say an Italian Jew, an Italian Christian, and so forth. What counts isn't your nationality but rather your creed. For instance, when we say that there're a billion Muslims around the World. We lump them together regardless of their origins. I hope that clarifies your differences. As for who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven. That's up to Allah Almighty. He'll judge between us in the Hereafter. I believe the true religion of Allah is Islam and am prepared to die as such. I also believe that others who profess other religions feel the same way. That's why Allah will judge between us in the Hereafter. And as such there'll eventually be one winner. The rest will be losers and therefore face the wrath of Allah and His punishment. As for those who don't sleep comfortably at night 'cause of doubts they have about their religion. I urge them to do as much reading and researching as possible and cling onto the faith they feel they're comfortable with. I rest my case and hope you'll at least set aside the fruitless argument over nationalities. Since it's a proven fact that everywhere you go, you'll find people of different faiths and creeds.
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 01:39 pm "I'm really flabbergasted and dumbfound at reading your points of disagreement........when we say that there're a billion Muslims around the World. We lump them together regardless of their origins. I hope that clarifies your differences." The Equalizer, read the post on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 06:02 pm and see if what you are saying and what i said is different. "As for who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven. That's up to Allah Almighty. He'll judge between us in the Hereafter." again, read what i wrote on Monday, October 23, 2000 - 11:56 am, i said kufars and mushrikiin do have thier chances while they are on earth. after death, there awaits them gracelessness of the hereafter (hell). this is in the Qur'an. so, if i report what is in the Qu'ran, am i doing the judging? ;-) "The rest will be losers and therefore face the wrath of Allah and His punishment." i hope you are not doing the judging here. ;-) "As for those who don't sleep comfortably at night 'cause of doubts they have about their religion. I urge them to do as much reading and researching as possible and cling onto the faith they feel they're comfortable with." well, non-muslims have the rights to practice whatever they want and comfortable with, but you (as a muslim) urging them to clinch on the faith they feel that they are comfortable with is no good. at least, you could have said. you are urging you to consider islam as the true religion, which Allah will accept in the day of judgment. ;-)
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| | Monday, October 23, 2000 - 11:22 pm Equalizer The reality is creed doesn't mean squat and nationality means a lot. As I pointed out to common on another thread, I fought in Desert Storm with Syrians, Saudis and Qataris on my side. I ate with them, slept with them, planned with them and fought with them. We fought Iraqis -Muslims. On an individual level, I would argue that neither creed nor race nor religion are what define the man - he is defined by his actions. I can claim I'm this and I'm that, but what truly defines who and what I am is what I do.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 01:41 am assalamu calaykum! asad! Bro, instead of quoting what other people write and commenting on them in uncomprehendible way why don't you just shut up(no offence). An agitator like you does more harm than good to the course of islam. Please reread what people wrote in here and note that no one is against islam. so, stop prouncing people as infidels. Leave that judgement to allah. You mentioned somewhere that you found some discrepencies . What do u mean that? you mean discrepencies in faith or facts? bro, the worst enemy of islam, I guess is he who tries who claims to be an expert but has a layman knowledge of the religion. Islam as you know ( i hope) is a religion based on submittance to allah, and that includes tolerance. For us somalis (i hope you are one), we have a challenge of making our country free from all those warlords who murdered innocent people ( some of those attrocities were committed by people claiming to be muslims). So charity begins at home.... We have a country to free from infidels. Jaahuudile: Have you murdered anyone? isn't that forbidden in islam? assad.... bro, honestly i detect a well learned scholar in you ( a muslim), but i also detect a religiuos prinoid person(no offence again). Why don't instead use your learning in telling us the teaching of islam? May allah show us the straight path wa calaykum assalam
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:09 am Mad mac did i detect some sarcasm in your "that settles it" comment. Again , you are appalled by the fact that muslims belive in the WHOLE of the Quran, you would prefer i imagine the situation the Christians find themselves in, in which they believe in some parts and not in others?. or perhaps your situation where you lesuirely choose random beliefs that you are comfortable with in a ad hoc fashion?.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:15 am Oh, this is fruitless. Go to hell the bunch of you!
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:55 am The imposter is back. I thought he split but the cretin has crawled back on to the internet after spending the last few weeks molesting children. Obviously, that last comment is not me. Common Indeed, you detected sarcasm. The finality of your comments (even if you believe them) is hard to fathom. As if there's really no room for discussion on the Qur'an. It's the word of God, that's that, we can all go home. Know what I mean? Sometimes it just kills me. I don't object to believing per se, just the finality with which all else is dismissed. Yes, I pick and choose what I think is consistent and correct. I do not subscribe to one dogma. What's wrong with that? I apply my intelligence and my instincts to determine what I think is correct and what I think may be in err. I also apply my own experiences with divine intervention and then make my own judgements. Anyway, I'm always sarcastic, i'm sure you've noticed that. It's part of my make up. Drives my boss crazy!!!
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 03:11 am "Bro, instead of quoting what other people write and commenting on them in uncomprehendible way why don't you just shut up(no offence)." well, my observing and the pointing out of the discrepancies in parts of you and others comment on here is what this place is all about, but ordering people to shut up is not what this place is all about. what is incomprehensible and offensive is to exercise censorship on public forumss, wanaagsane. ;-) "An agitator like you does more harm than good to the course of islam." well, that is your opinion. however, if my comments agitate you, i feel sorry for you. i am not here to cater people's wishes nor to make you feel good. ;-) "Please reread what people wrote in here and note that no one is against islam. so, stop prouncing people as infidels. Leave that judgement to allah." i did not say you or others were against islam. i am, however, pointing out and correcting what i think of discrepancies made by you and others. if i disagree with you that does not mean i am considering you as an infidel. we are here to agree to disagree. i am judging what you express, not your faith. ;-) "You mentioned somewhere that you found some discrepancies . What do u mean that? you mean discrepencies in faith or facts?" just facts. i do not know what is in your heart. muslims can disagree, you know. i only know what you express on here. if i see discrepancies made by you, i will point out and correct them in the way i understand things. "bro, the worst enemy of islam, I guess is he who tries who claims to be an expert but has a layman knowledge of the religion." well, i am neither an expert nor an enemy of islam. i am a layman, who is disagreeing with you some of the things you expressed here. "Islam as you know ( i hope) is a religion based on submittance to allah, and that includes tolerance." again, if i disagree with you that do not mean i am intolerant, am i? "For us somalis (i hope you are one), we have a challenge of making our country free from all those warlords who murdered innocent people ( some of those attrocities were committed by people claiming to be muslims). So charity begins at home.... We have a country to free from infidels" i do not know if the warlords in somalia, who commit atrocities, are infidels or not. however, i know that they are killing muslims. "bro, honestly i detect a well learned scholar in you ( a muslim)," i am a layman, remember, who is not a scholar in islam. ;-) "but i also detect a religiuos prinoid person (no offence again)." again, if i disagree with you that does not mean i am paranoid. i just happened to see things differently. is that bad? ;-) "Why don't instead use your learning in telling us the teaching of islam?" i am not here to teach islam. remeber, i am not an expert of islam. i am just a layman like you. ;-) "May allah show us the straight path" amiin.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 03:39 am Assad! What Can I say?........ What do u see diffeently bro? What did I say to make you feel that there are discrepencies in what I wrote?. I think we are writing the same thing, or at least want to accomplish the same goal... don't you think so? Is it the child in you that wants to say again what others wrote? Don't quote me please wa calaykum assalam
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 03:53 am "The finality of your comments (even if you believe them) is hard to fathom." and it is hard for me to understand that a man who claims to have an intelligent not to accept the Qu'ran. ;-) "As if there's really no room for discussion on the Qur'an. It's the word of God, that's that, we can all go home. Know what I mean? " well, remember, i believe i told you that muslims have already decided to accept and understood that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah and they used their intelligence. however, let us not go home; let us discuss the Qu'ran, shall we? ;-) "Sometimes it just kills me. I don't object to believing per se, just the finality with which all else is dismissed." for a muslim person, by using his or her intelligence, he or she has already dismissed all other beliefs, but the islamic belief. is something wrong with that, mad mac? ;-) "Yes, I pick and choose what I think is consistent and correct." so, do the muslims. ;-) "I do not subscribe to one dogma." i told you that muslims subscribe to one dogma (the islamic one), because they are not confused as to which one is the right one. what is wrong with that? ;-) "What's wrong with that? i'll tell you what is wrong with subscribing to different dogmas----because it is confusing to believe two things that oppose each other. a person who dismisses that the Qu'ran being perfect and the true Word of Allah and then accepts what contradicts the Qur'an cannot be a muslim. ;-) "I apply my intelligence and my instincts to determine what I think is correct and what I think may be in err. also apply my own experiences with divine intervention and then make my own judgements." and the muslim has already decided (with his or her intelligence) that the Qur'an is correct and it has no errors. he or she already decided all other beliefs are wrong, but ISLAM. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 04:03 am "What do u see diffeently bro? What did I say to make you feel that there are discrepencies in what I wrote?. I think we are writing the same thing, or at least want to accomplish the same goal...don't you think so?" i do no think so. go back and re-read all the places where i corrected you. ;-) "Is it the child in you that wants to say again what others wrote?" i think the child in me wants you to eat your own words. ;-) "Don't quote me please" i told you that i do not accept when people beg me and when they order me to do what they want. ;-). i do not beg your nor order you to do or do not do things on here, do i, wanaagsane? ;-)"
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 04:04 am Asad Ergo, no matter what anyone demonstrates to you, it is dismissed in advance, because you have already made up your mind. No matter what anyone says or displays. You could witness someone claiming to be a prophet perform a miracle and you would explain it away - because by your own admission you've closed your mind on the topic. I would also argue that your mind was probably always closed because you were indoctrinated from a young age. BTW, I was thinking about your point on Apostates. You say Apostates, because they leave the faith, are traitors. But I can renounce my citizenship and become a citizen of the Cayman Islands to avoid paying taxes and that is not an act of treason or any other criminal offense (in fact, lots of people do it). So the analogy doesn't hold true. It's coercion. Between that and laws forbidding prosthelyzation it is a deliberate design to establish Islamic belief in a location, followed by Islamic law, which can not be rolled back. It is a power game to manipulate people. changing your faith is not a crime except among the narrow minded. If Islam was secure in its correctness, as it claims to be, apostacy wouldn't be a crime at all. judgement would be left to Allah and not to men.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 04:33 am "Ergo, no matter what anyone demonstrates to you, it is dismissed in advance, because you have already made up your mind." hehehe. i can say the same things. no matter what, you already dismissed in advance and made up your mind that islam as being the only true religion that is acceptable to Allah, right? "No matter what anyone says or displays." well, i have not seen anything you displayed that is against the Qu'ran so far. the last time i remember, you said you were going to show me proof the errors in the Qur'an. well, i'm still waiting. ;-) "You could witness someone claiming to be a prophet perform a miracle and you would explain it away - because by your own admission you've closed your mind on the topic." well, the so-called prophet would himself dismiss what is in the Qur'an and made up his mind, right? he would dismiss the verse in the Qur'an that says muhammad was the last prophet, right? ;-) "I would also argue that your mind was probably always closed because you were indoctrinated from a young age." hehehe. i would say the same thing about you--which you learned to oppose and not accept the Qur'an being divine from a young age when you were growing up in your parents home, right? ;-) " BTW, I was thinking about your point on Apostates. You say Apostates, because they leave the faith, are traitors." yes. "But I can renounce my citizenship and become a citizen of the Cayman Islands to avoid paying taxes and that is not an act of treason or any other criminal offense (in fact, lots of people do it). So the analogy doesn't hold true. It's coercion " but a military man who deserts his post is a traitor, which is a criminal offence, right? ;-) "If Islam was secure in its correctness, as it claims to be, apostacy wouldn't be a crime at all. judgement would be left to Allah and not to men." well, islam is secure from the enemy of islam. they cannot stop people accepting islam even thought they hate the thought of someone coming to islam. if Allah wanted everything to be left to Him, He would not have sent prophets to judge and rule the law of religion; He would not approve of fighting in the way of Him in religion. the religion of christianity and judaism also consider apostasy a crime. it is in their books. i can quote for you if you want.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:52 am Madfac, Just for your information. A real Muslim's daily behavior is shaped by his/her belief. In other words, all of our daily interactions with others hinge upon our creed. As a matter of fact, creed to us isn't something you can roll up and set aside when it suits you. Just to give you an example. A true Muslim doesn't accept interest on money 'cause Islam forbids it. A true Muslim doesn't play lottery 'cause Islam forbids it, and the list goes on and on. So, please don't come here to preach us that creed plays a small role in the daily life of Muslims. As apostacy being a crime in Islam, it's not open to further discussions. We, Muslims, unlike Jews when it comes to the commandments of Allah. We say: "We Hear and we obey." Guess what, the Jews said: "We Hear and we disobey." What's more, the Koran stayed, stays and will remain in its present status till the Day of Judgement. Not a single comma has changed since it was revealed to Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h.). You won't find an iota of inconsistencies in all the Korans used around the world. We cannot say the same thing about the Bible. It changes its stand all the time. just to quote a recent example. About ten years ago or so, there was a New Version of the Bible. In its introduction, the authors all of them Christians said, : "Although we've corrected some of the mistakes that abound in the Bible; yet more remains to be done." At least these authors were genuine in their analysis of the Bible. However, there're others who make changes to the Bible just to keep it abreast of the times. A classical example is the notion that affirms gay and lesbian marriages should be allowed. All this points to the fact that the Bible as presented to us today is much different from its original version. In fact, it's safe to claim that it has been corrupted over the centuries and as such it's not reliable. In light of all of this, I ask you, would you bet your eternal afterlife on writings whose authors are unknown and it's full of mistakes that are ever evident??? I hope you'll do your own research and ultimately decide what creed you're comfortable with. However, I urge you not to dwell on it for long 'cause the Angel of death might pay you a visit sooner than you think.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:27 am Asad and Mad mac Asaamu Calayka IInsha Allah, first of all I wonder what you think the Somalis are Believe me me are Super geneous than you two, As I read your writings I am Laghing at you, you never understand somalis. To be kind with you don't waste your time on us, We are ahead of you and above your mentality you think we are like the Christians that you rewrite their religion all the time and fellow what ever you say. go look for other nations and try to lead them into dark. Islam is not opennion it is a path way to fellow and I will never think twice to take exactly what ever the quran says in full period. The quran is memorized in our mind Allah the almighty kept it inside our souls. we will not allow pigs like you to tarnish it. Shaydaan means Exactly you and we are aware of shaydaan, you are jelous of Islam why don't you become Muslim. We never fellow Our desires, likes and we never use our mentality when it comes to Islam get that. When the day comes of your death don't cry to Allah. Go teach your hawaa and reasoning of your kufr some where else. Nacaladi korka kaaga soo dagtay..aamiin Masiibo aan dawo laheen Allah idiin keen..Aamiin Cudur aad la kici weeydo Allah deg deg kuugu rid. Shadaan deb daran iyo hoog allah kugu xariiri.. Reerkaaga iyo gurigaaga Allah rog..Aamiin Ilaahbaan kuu baryee afka qidhim lagaa sii..Aamiin
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:47 am We somali jews are the chosen people of allah,you weak moslems must learn to live under jewish rule for the rest of your miserable lives.Jewish people have been defeating arabs and arab-wannabes like you for a millenium and we will keep on doin it ,unless you recgonize that we are the MASTER RACE.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:14 am Yahuudille Yeah, through casual observation I've noticed that the Somalis are way ahead of everyone when it comes to practicing Islam. If kill you neighbor and rape his wife were a commandment in the Qur'an the Somalis would be all over it - they'd be the folks to emulate. Unfortunately for you, it's not in there. So spare me the righteous BS.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:34 am "unless you recgonize that we are the MASTER RACE." i think hitler said that. you know who is hitler, don't you? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:52 am Al-Xamdullahi Ladii Qaa'il "Fatazawadoo Fa'ina Khayra Zaadi Taqwaa" Assalaamu Calaykum WaraxmatuAllahi Wabarakaatu dhamaan Muslimiinay. Waxaan jecleestay in aan nafteeda iyo adinkaba aan kula dardaarmo taqwada rabi caza wajala. Waxaana adinleeyahay, "Wataquu yawman fiihi turjacuuna illa Allah". Maalinta rabi loo noqon doono hala xasuusto. Oo dad waxaan meesha ku arkay wax qoraya rabana in ay dadka ka yaabiyaa misa kaftan ahaan. Waxaana laga yabaa in Allah (S.W) uu arinkaas ka caroodo oo qofkaas naarya loo sahlo. So my dear respected Bro and Sis. Fear Allah where ever you are, and don't forget that Allah is watching you every time. "Alam yaclam ana Allaha Yaraa" Allah Knows the best!!!! All the good things I said are from Allah, and if I said anything bad it's from Shaydaan. Forgive me!
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:00 pm Bismi Allahi Raxmaani Raxiiim! Cajiiiib, Cajiib, waxaan aad oola yaabay dadkan sheeganay Somali in ay yihiin oo hadana ku jira "Somalinet" kadibna aan marna af Soomali aan wax ku qoreenin. Cajiib war ma afkeenaa ceeb leh misa Ingriiska ayaa ka sharaf badan?????????? And FYI, if your don't understand me! Get out of this forums you don't belong in here.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:35 pm "you are jelous of Islam why don't you become Muslim." i would be jealous if i was not a muslim. ;-) "We never fellow Our desires, likes and we never use our mentality when it comes to Islam get that." i use my mentality when it comes to islam. there are many places in the Qur'an where Allah is asking people why they are not using their mentality and follow islam. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:57 pm Asamu Calaykum Asad iyo MadMac. Salaamu Calaykum waraxmatullaahi wabrakaatuh Walaalaha Muslimiinta ahna. Waxaan idiin sheegayaa in aad iska jirtaan shadaadiinta lakala yidhaa ASAD iyo MAD MAC waa niman gaalo ah oo basaasiin ah waxa aad tidhaahdaana way qortaan oo waxay u shaqeeyaan dawlada iskajira, iskajira, iskajira, marka aad aragtaana lii, liii, liiiiiii. hana la hadlina waligiin oo ha u maleenina in ay soomaali yihiin. Ka layidhaa madmac waa Irish Basaas u ah Yahuuda, kan layihdaa Asadna waa gaal kale oo wax u turjubaana, Tabarta Allah ha ka qaado oo Cudurka Caateeye ee aan daawada laheen Allah ha ku ridee. Illaahaybaan u baryee wixii gaalo jecel iyo kuwa hunguri ku raaca ee dabaleefka ahba cadaab Allah ha ku guro,, Aaamiin. Waa iga digniin ee hala iska jiro labadaas nin waxay iska dhigaan in ay doodayaan kolba oo wax ayay ka sheegaan islaamka, Waxayna isku dayayaan in ay MASKAXDA IDINKA XADAAN oo shaki iyo waswaas qalbigiina galiyaan. Ka foojignaada hana u wadina marnaba, marka aad la hadashaana caaya tuugta dhilooyinka ah, Meelbaas Allah ha ka tuuree. Waa nijaas ee yaanay idin wasakhayn labadaas nin ee la baxay Asad iyo MadMac mar marna way badalaan magacyadooda, Islamkana waxba ha uga sheegina. Indhaha beelooyin waa kuwo 24Saac dul fadhiya halkan oo malaha lacag ku qaatee iska jira way bukaanee. Waa shadaadiintii ALLAH Quraanka inoogu sheegee hala ogaado waa Caqlaai'yiin maskaxdooda wixii ay doonaan ee ku soo dhaca samaynaayee iska jira walaalayaal. Wixii aad aragtaana uga diga. Yaanay idin duufsan xitaa lahadalkooda ayaaba laga yaabaa in uu danbi kaa soo gaadho. Laa tasmacu fiihaa laaqiya. Doofaarta iska ogaada. Kalmad kalmad Af soomaali ah ayeey qoraan oo aad u maleenayso Caruurta Soomaalida ah ee halkan ku dhalatay ee waligiin ka fiirsada, Accident Allah ha ku dilee. UGU DAMBAYNTII WAXAAN LEEHAY MadMac iyo Asad: Wajaaf Awliyaad Idinku dhac iyo warankii fiiqnaaye Waaliyi idinku dhacdoo malag ku gee wabiga Waslad hiliba ku margoo waraab laguu waaye dhe T.B. Idinku dhacdoo cudur u taah waynee Toostaad tidhaahdiinba wadnuhu Taw ku soo odhaye Todobaadkana dhinta oo tabar lagaa waa. Aamiin.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:03 pm Asad Can you help me here. This Yahhud guy wrote a message to me but it's in code. Need a decoder.
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| | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:23 pm MAD. Impostor or not, you are all the same. Tell me what is the difference?. Islamdile: The chosen people or not, you are despised in the human race. It is nothing more than the character of jewishness that is your undoing in every community. Since roman time, and untill the end of the world, you will be the race of uncertainty. It is because of your fate that was molded by your own hands. Even Allah the creator had rejected your claims thousand years ago. Allah wanted you to share with the rest of humanity the same rules and principles but you don't get it. The jews faked their books to put that claim in there. Did it work?. No, not obviously. They were massacred for that time and again. Look at your poor black personality who came yesterday to this country!. What was your first lesson they gave to you?; That you are a perfect race. Perhaps it fed your insecurity towards other races. Your ugliness, you thought, could be replaced by fake claim of racial superiority. Yuhuuddile. Asad waa muslim. Teeda kale adigaaba laguugu wareersan yahay. Sidee dad gaalo aad ku tilmaamtey aad u leedahay assalaamu caleykum?. dinta baro haddaad run ka sheegeyso islaamka dadka muslimkana hakaa nadab galeen. NOTICE: This is the islamic section section of the FORUM. It is not the public area where people can write whatever they want. We don't accept that happen in this section. It is our right to take matters into our own hands. Few e-mails to the management will do some wonders. If you can't respect the rules, Write your commnets and declare you are up for the challenge. If you guys want a place where you can write whatever you want, GO TO THE PUBLIC SECTION. See if we come over there. You can't show your frustration on the islamic section. We can't let ungodly people take over the place and do their dirty stuff. If satan has ruled your malfunctioning brains, We are healthy people. And the healthy takes care of the sick. We will take care of you if that is what you want. Otherwise, let us all be grown ups and respect the rules. Don't let us treat you like children who can't reason for themselves. You can't serve your anger and hatred towards islam and muslims by being more angrier and angrier.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 03:41 am "Asad Can you help me here." in short, what he or she is saying is that asad and mad mac are two devils and infidels and are spying for the jewish. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 06:06 am Mahamood Madaxaaga Ilaahey ha ka shubo! Doodan aad furtey waxay keentey in dad badan ku dambaabaan ha ka noqoto ama kas ha u yeeleen.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 08:16 am Salaamu Calaykum Walaalkay FormerGuest, Khayr ALLAH ha ku siiyo, sida fiican ee aad ugu sheegtay runta nimankaasi gaalada ah ee iga cadhaysiiyay. Iyo kuwa diintoodii lacagta siistay. Mida labaad Walaal Aniga la iguma wareersana Alxamdullilaahi rabilcaalamiin ruux Ilaahay Muslin ka dhigay ayaan ahay, nin gaal ahna maan odhan Asalaamu calaykum ee sifiican u akhri waxa aan qoray oo ah Asaamu Calayka micnaheedana walaal markaad soo ogaato ayaad ioran diinta soo baro iyo waxa aan ula jeeday. Sidaa iyo Nabadgelyo Salaamu Calaykum waraxmatullaahi Wabarakaatuh.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 08:32 am "nin gaal ahna maan odhan Asalaamu calaykum ee sifiican u akhri waxa aan qoray oo ah Asaamu Calayka" on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 01:57 am, waxaad itir Asamu Calaykum Asad.... :-)------------- sidaa darteed aniga gaal ma ahi miyaa----mise waad is bedeshey?
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:34 am I am somali and i have converted to jews. now iam no longer muslim, iam jews.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:45 am DUUD •••• your MUMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!and all jews
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:08 pm "i have converted to jews. now iam no longer muslim, iam jews." how about converting the name to david too? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:52 pm Bismilla Yahuuddille wuxuu u egyahay nin fudud sidii Ittixaadkii. War qof intaadan gaalayn, akhri wuxuu qoro qofku, marka hore, doqonyohow. bal maxaad Asad ku gaalaysiisay mase English ma akhriside seeftaad iskala boodaysaa. Wassalu calaa manittabacal Hudaa
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 02:26 pm WARGALIN Dhammaan intiina iimaanka leh, waxaan u sheegayaa inay jiraan dad ka qoran hay'adaha fidiya diinta gaalada, waxayna wax ku qaataan waxay qabtaan sida qoraaladan oo kale, inta badanna waa hal ama labo qof waxa isku jawaabaa. Haddaba si looga hortago arintaas waxaa nala gudboon sidan: 1. Afsoomaali oo kaliya ha loogu jawaab, si loo yareeyo wada shaqeynbtooda, ayaga iyo gaalada kale. 2. Ha la yareeyo la sheekeysigooda, si loo gaabiyo xiriirkooda ama loo jaro. 3. Ha la badiyo baryada Alle, si uu umadda uga qabto, dadkaas fasahaada fidinaya. Allow naga qabo wixii shar wada, aammiin.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 03:31 pm It's evident we're no longer a nation that's 99% Muslims. It's kind of sad really, there are people who spend a good portion of their lives searching for the truth, namely Islam, while those of us who were handed the truth give it up so easily. It's no wonder why our country is in such state, what hope do we have when we've lost Islam? Allah promised his deen will carry on and those who fail to carry it will be replaced with people who will carry it with pride. This is evident by the mass number of reverts, the European reverts, the American reverts and the African reverts who are the mujahedeens in places like Chechnya and Kashmire, carrying Islam with such elegance and pride. Contrary to popular believe there are Jews who revert to Islam. I personally know of two, a 21 year old and a 26 year old, who reverted from Judaism. The 26 year old owns an Islamic store in NYC and the 21 year old was a mujahedeen in Chechnya last year.
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 08:26 pm Salaamu calaykum waraxmatullaahi wabarakaatuh Dhamaan walaalaha Muslimiinta ah, Walaal nuur anigu ma gaalaynin ninka la baxa Asad ee horaan iskugu soo gawso beelay oo ninku wuu cadaystay ee iska jir nin Muslin ahi wax aanu ku hadlin ayuu ku hadlay saaxiib, Yaan meesha waraabe kugu cunin waxaanu Ilaahay igu ogyahay oo aan kuu sheegayaa in aanan waligeey Itixaad iyo Urur ku biirin kuna biirayn waligeey. Anigu Muslim ayaan ahay Quraanka iyo Sunaha Saxiixa ah raacaya intaas ayaana igu filan. Anonymous walaalkayoow adigu nin fiican ayaad tahee waxa muslimka wax ka sheegayaa kaliya waa Asad iyo MadMac dadka la baxa, xitaa kan Alysia. Sirtooda waxa ka mid ah iyaga oo copy-eeya oo qora Afsoomaaligan aan halkan ku soo qorayno, markaas ayuu qofkii ku cusubi meesha is dhihi waa Soomaali kani, Waar maaha ee waa Doofaar bakhti cun ah. Waa gaalo basaasiin ah ee iska jira. Foojignaada yaan qalbigiina waswaas Diinta laidinkaga gelin. Warkana walaalkay Anonymous ayaa dhameeyay taladiisaana anigu waan raacayaa, mar dambe English wax ku soo qori maayo. Kaafiriintaa Muslimka wax ka sheegaysa ee kolba magaca la baxaysa ee cadaaban ha la iska jiro meel baas Allah ha mariyee. Hadii uu qof Soomaali ah oo gaaloobay oo shaydaan qaatay inigu jirana, Eebaan kaa hoos galay shartaada waxaanan kuu baryayaa in uu Illaahay ifka kugu silciyo Murfad ayaanad tahay. Hadii kale oo gaal aan Soomaali aheeni inagu dhex jirana isjira, iskailaaliya, halasheekaysanina, ka fogaada, kana baxsada aniguna sidoo kale. walaalayaal fii Amaanilaah. Salaamu Calaykum waraxmatullaahi Wabarakaatuh. walaalayaal khayr ayaan idiin rajaynayaa
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 09:01 pm To dhamaan su'aal Asad ma gaalbaa?
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| | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:32 pm Yuhuud-dile iyo dhammaan: Asad anigaa la xiriira mar mar oo haya e-mailkiisa intaa wixii ka badanna waa private. In muddo ahna waan aqaan waa MUSLIM IBNU MUSLIM IBNU ISLAM ee warka badan ka baxa. Waxaan filayaa inuu masjidka xaggiisa iiga xirnaansho badan yahay. Wixii faahfaahin dheeraada ah oo isaga ku saabsan isagaad weydiisan kartaan. Waxaad ku heysataan oo diinta garab marsan ka hadla ee aad aragteen. Wixii intaa dhaafsiisan inaad dulmi ku sameyneysaan ogaada. Ma jiraa qof idinka mid ah oo yiri e-mailkaaga isoo sii inaan ku barto ayaan rabaa?. DAUD. I don't understand why you guys show up at somali forumss to discuss your changes. Are you looking for approval or acceptance?. We have neither. If you have the gutts to discuss your newly found faith, you are welcome. Untill then, we have nothing for you but curse among the curses of ALLAH: "5.78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses."
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:10 am "Walaal nuur anigu ma gaalaynin ninka la baxa Asad" haddii aadan adiga asad gaalynin, warkaadana miyaa gaal isaga dhigi karo? "ee horaan iskugu soo gawso beelay oo ninku wuu cadaystay" xaggee baan iskugu so gowso beesheen oo uu asad cadaystey in uu gaal yahay? "ee iska jir nin Muslin ahi wax aanu ku hadlin ayuu ku hadlay saaxiib" maxaa ka mid ah wax uu muslim ku hadlin oo uu asad ku hadley? "Anonymous walaalkayoow adigu nin fiican ayaad tahee waxa muslimka wax ka sheegayaa kaliya waa Asad" maxaa ka mid ah waxyaalaha uu asad muslimka ka sheegay?
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:13 am "To dhamaan su'aal Asad ma gaalbaa?" sidee bay dhamaan ku ogaan karaan waxa qalbiga uga jira asad? ;-)
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:33 am One of the biggest sin committed by a Muslim is to call Muslim bro/sis a kafir without any proof. Yahuuddile has to prove what he saying or he has to repent to Allah for He is the most forgiving.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:30 am Salaamu Calaykum Waraxmatullaahi wabarakaatuh, Formerguest aad iyo aadayaad walaalkayoow u mahadsantahay Waxaanan eebe kaaga baryayaa in uu kuu siyaadiyo nuurka, amiin. Waxaan marlabaad kuugu mahadinayaa sida fiican ee aad iiga qabatay nin walaalkay ah oo muslin ah oo aan gaal ku sheegay oo aan seefta la galay kuna daray gaalkii MADMAC. ASAD waxaan leehay raali ahoow 9999999999999 jeer. Waanan qaldamay umana kasin in aan adiga oo Muslim ah ku gaaleeyo Ilaahayna waxaan waydiisanayaa Dambidhaaf iyo in uu i cafiyo "Allaahu ma anta Rabii, LaaIlaaha illaa anta, Khalaqtanii wa anaa cabduk, Wa ana calaa cahdik wawacdik mastadactu, Acuudu bika min sharri maa sanactu, Abuu'u laka binicmatika calayya , Wa abuu'u bidambii faqfirlii, Fainahuu laa yaqfirud-dunuuba Illaa Anta." Waxaan uga galay dambigaas walaalkay ASAD naftayda daciifka ah iyo shaydaan iyo aniga oo ninkii MADMAC kula deg degay seefta kadibna raaciyay walaalkay ASAD. Raali noqo walaalkay ASAD-OOW mar labaad xaalna qaado waxaanan ku leehay waan khaldamay ee iga raali ahoow. waxaanan ku leehay ASAD Salaamu calaykum waraxmatullaahi wabarakaatuh. Habaarkii kufaartu ay Nabigeenii (SCW) ku odhan jireen ee ahayd "Asaamu calaykana" gaalkii MADMAC ayuunbaan ku koobayaa. Formerguest marlabaad Illaahay khayr ha ku siiyo Caafimaad, Cimridheer iyo Cibaada Suuban. Xaqana Ilaahay ha inagu wada sugo,Aamiin. Salaamu Calaykum Waraxmatullaahi Wabarakaatuh.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:44 am "Raali noqo walaalkay ASAD-OOW mar labaad xaalna qaado waxaanan ku leehay waan khaldamay ee iga raali ahoow." dibaato majirto. "waxaanan ku leehay ASAD Salaamu calaykum waraxmatullaahi wabarakaatuh." wacalaykuma salaam waraxmatuLaahi wabarakaatahu.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:48 am Hey, I am always amused by how easy it is to wind up religious fanatics. You see religion takes away or at least dilutes a fundamental human strength: rational thinking. I mean ('ere we go) how can you have a rational discussion with someone who truly believes that that Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)went to space and met God. Mode of transport: Biraaq, a half-woman half-horse creature. And remember this was a time when space suits weren't invented yet!
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:30 am "Hey, I am always amused by how easy it is to wind up religious fanatics." there is nothing wrong being a religious fanatic. people who are fanatic about their life styleS advocate their rights vigirously. now, you yourself are advocating your irreligious thoughts here and are fanatic about your faithlessness. "You see religion takes away or at least dilutes a fundamental human strength: rational thinking." well, the strength of the prophets of Allah and those who followed them come from the fundamental of religion. whoever follows Allah's religion islam and is a fan of the way of life of prophets really got hold of the correct rational thinking. "I mean ('ere we go) how can you have a rational discussion with someone who truly believes that that Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)went to space and met God. Mode of transport: Biraaq, a half-woman half-horse creature." how can you have rational discussion with someone who trutly does not believe that God can not arrange a meeting in space with His prophet? ;-). are you saying that God can not use his creations in whatever form they maybe? "And remember this was a time when space suits weren't invented yet!" God can use things with or without the means, galool. if you don't believe this, then your rational thinking is off. ;-)
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:30 am Yuhuud-dile. Intaad ii duceysey iyo in ka badan ilaahey haku siiyo. Caadifadda diineed ma xuma. Inkastoo la rabo inaan iska ilaalinno wixii gaf keeni kara. Warka wuxuu ku dhammaadey raalli gelintaada. Asadna wuu kaa aqbaley inshallaah.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:08 am Galool. You are perhaps amused too often that you pay too little attention to detail. Firstly and this wipes away your whole arguement or is the fact that Human beings are not rational beings. I hate to be the fanatic to break it to you, but its true. You try telling a New york knicks fan or a Manchester united fan, that his team isn't exactly what he/she thinks it is. Rationality is the pinnicle of western thought, yet its downfall is that human beings are not rational. That is why you have riddiculous contradtions in the world. For example people will tell you "in a ideal world.. everyone would have some thing to eat".. errr....no in a realistic world every one would have something to eat,(especially when we live in a world that has at least double the required food production), becasue when you don't eat for long periods of time you die. A muslim intelligence's is defined as the one who sees things correctly, with both their heart and mind. When you seperate the two and try and be "rational", you end up doing things like the European Union, which stockpiles grains so the world price remains high...oh and spray paints cabbages blue and then burys them so people can't eat them and upset the market price. Are you amused?, because it was this "rationality" that caused your somali butt to starve. Asad is right..if you belive in God,then why would you have such a low opinion of Allah that you doubt his capabities, he made the whole earth and the heavens, but can't transport Prophet Mohamed up the road to space?. And if you don't belive in God, until perhaps he is invented by Weber, then you crack me up. How can you expect us "fanatics" to have any kind of discussion with some one who thinks me being here is a accident, and that things don't exist until the west invents them <shaking my head> Ya Allah you need help. You just may be one of those people who says things like "its a scientfic fact", when they take about laws and theories in the material sciences, you probably a fan of evolution , which has never been proven on anything but a micro scale. they been Shining radation on fireflies for years waiting for them to evolve, but all they got was... deformed fireflies.What you need to do is understand that you have religious views, your views have a religious significance , but at least i am aware of my religion- Islam i am a muslim, are you a scientist, i doubt it. Ya Allah your knowldge is drop in the ocean, yet you can sit down and type with certaintity that Prophet Mohamed,(pbuh) the Honest one lied, what propells you to have such arrogance, can you produce anything like the Quran?, yet you walk on this earth with such insolence, you came from the earth, out of mud and clay and you shall return to the one who gave you breath. I volunteer at a hostipal where all this old people come, i was giving this old man a shave and slowly he was dying he was returning to Allah, its so sweet,we are born and from the minute we are born we are dying, our cells start dying, i was in scienc class the other day, and the lecturer was talking about the percentage of oxygen in the bloood, when we are in the feotus it is like 98% ..from then on it starts decreasing brother, take advantage of your youth, for surety you shall be questioned upon it. tell me about the "fundemental human strength","Rationality" that is basically a idea that came into being during the enlightment in europe.no more no less The reason it came in to power?... social change,mo more no less a new group of political actors sought to change the arena and remove the chruch from politics. thats all my brother. Incidendly the greatest of their mindss were Christian. Roussouea, Augustine.Even then, the worthiest of their souls were filled with racism.The worthest of them, imagined we were animals, that we were subhuman Tell me which true muslim you now that is racist?. Ya Allah, our souls are on a different level, my brother before then they where in ignorance, during enlightment they were in ignorance and they still are. The English in sunderland during the Napoloeanic wars hung a monkey they found on a shipwrecked french ship, becasue they thought he was a french man. When the Muslims met the Europeans we taught them how to wash, they used to rub orange peels on themselves to hide the stench, we taught them Alegibra, we taught them medicine, we taught them geography, Ya Allah we are the founders of their civilisations, and you are amazed by them?, you exchange the high for the low.They worked hard to get where they are, they were evil beyond comprehension.The crusades, were simply becasue they didn't like us, how could you murder ,loot, burn and then turn around and say "your so intolerant" to the muslims?.The town of england in liverpool was built on the backs of people who have the same colour skin as me and you. The English bank Lloyds used to issue decrees saying if any slave ran away the "property" could be returned to them and they would return it to its owner, why do you applaud a system stained scarlet with our blood?, why do you orbit a western pipedream?, mental abortion?. "forget the past" they will say..so you have no idea of your place in this world, brother rise from your mere existance, your petty thoughts and daily squabbles.Ya Allah my you be guided my brother, i will continue to be fanatic while my brothers like yourself are amused, what in the world could you find amusing, such horror such pain and humilation for the majority of the world, all for the sake of a chosen few.. and you wish to emulate them?, they have ripped the soul out of your heart, and you are amused. i feel like crying, people die in the horn of Africa every year from lack of food, and you are amused?, children are shot in palistine, with high velocity bullets and you are amused?, muslim women are raped in Chechnya and you are amused?. Please brother contemplate your thought process. You refuse to believe in a half horse half woman creature, do you know the secrets of this earth. have you reached the mountains in height and the seas in depth?, or have you sat and watched a black box in the middle of your living room beam sound and images coming from a central location at you. Is a simple, i don't know, too much for you? You wouldn't dare to question your teacher on any matter, yet you challenge the Quran. If you lived in earlier times, you would imagine the world was flat, would you have challenged that thought Galool?.. or would you have gone along with it. If you doubt the Quran produce one verse like it, don't sit and offer us the low for the high and expect us to be happy with it. If being a fanatic means i actually use my brain, instead of bowing down to a will which is Ya Allah so corrupt. Simmone beavoir talks about a relationship between the child and the adult, in where the Adults soverign eyes look over the child, today the west soverign eyes look over the muslim ummah, we quiver when if we speak of our rights , she snaps at us that we are intolerant, when we dennounce injustice, she glares at us and calls us fanatics, when we practise our faith, she jeers and calls us fundementalists..and she hates us, she leaves us to starve, she kicks us, she tugs at our hair and spits in our face, she vomits hatred, and hisses jealousy, we cower in the corner and imagine we could be like her, when she dresses to meet her prostitute friends, we marvel at her intelligence when she lies and coverts, upsurps daily, she breaks all of Allah's laws and tramples on his earth, and we travel to her doorstep seeking knowledge. You are a miserable man Sahib, captured by a train of thought that stops at no station of reason, you hurry through life so sure that you are right, so much i wouldn't dream of telling you that perhaps i am right and you are wrong. Indeed you are right.. you are rational. the muslims the fanatics, we are worthy of your contempt, of your amusment, becasue we pray for us and you, we beg for Allah's mercy for the ummah, we seek to restore huimility and grace to a empty shell. We spend out of our money for the sake of Allah and give regular charity, how stupid of us, we fast and ask thatt it be accepetd, instead of eating the nearest and tastest thing in our sight, what fools, losers are we,we sin, and ask for forgiveness, what a waste of time, we do not want to cause mischeif on this earth. How dumb must we be not to ask for interest on our loans, that make Brazil cut down her rain forest for cash crops to pay back a debt that can never be repaid, due to forever esculating interest rates. What a doomed people. Ya Allah my brother, the Kuffar are headed into the Ablys, heed my message, on the day of judgement you wouldn't have an excuse, you will not sahib be able to say i wasn't warned, i mean i know its not very jiggy, i haven't laced it with a phat beat and dope lyrics ,but inshallah i have fulfilled my duty, i hope not to have forsaken my brothers soul out of politness and a facade of "tolerance". You know, certain situations are intolerable. Tell me who is fanactic?. Israel breaks 50 United nations mandates, not one western country even condemns her, Iraq breaks one, and the west, including one of the countries i pay taxes to goes to war with her, issues sanctions and kills 5000 Iraqi children a day. See no evil hear no evil huh?. Brother the muslims feel the evil daily, its thinly suppressed and it is visble in our oppressors eyes..all you have to do is look, sahib, just look. sorry for wrting such a long message everyone
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:22 pm To common I was hoping for the chop-bits-off-him crew as they are infinetely more interesting. Instead I got you- a man who argues against Rationality using a perfectly rational argument; a hospital volunteer who wishes ill to at least two thirds of the human race; a Global thinker who believes that Euorope should feed "our starving butt" yet rails against the very science that helps produce these bumper crops; an Environmentalist, Historian, Racist, revolutionary, empire-builder, philosopher... and is this "We" you always use the Royal WE? You are truly intoxicated with a whole jumble of contradictory ideas, most of them nothing to do whatsoever with Islam as a Faith(which by the way DOES believe that planet Earth is flat! sorry can't resist that one) Just one point about tolerance(which you seem to dislike): Prophet Muhammed called Islam Addin as Samhaa: The Tolerant Faith.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:42 pm Galool. "I was hoping for the chop-bits-off-him crew as they are infinetely more interesting." What makes you expect people would put up with no brainers who don't understand what they are using as a base for their argument?. Or may be, as it goes, only an atheist understands the world over?. " Instead I got you- a man who argues against Rationality using a perfectly rational argument;" Admitting your weakness against a good reasonable debate is not a shameful act. A man who understands his failures is said to have the wisdom of understanding. What did you write though after admitting your fallacy?. More diatribe to feed your ignorance of your state. "a hospital volunteer who wishes ill to at least two thirds of the human race; " The islamic part of the human race doesn't count when it comes to intellectuality does it sir?. That is why you stressed you needed the crew right?. You think, going open with an atheist philosophy gives more feasibility in debates with muslims right?. Don't fool yourself. "a Global thinker who believes that Euorope should feed "our starving butt" Last time I checked the country, people were making ends meet to feed themselves. And not expecting anything from anybody. "yet rails against the very science that helps produce these bumper crops;" What do you know about science?. Science as admitted by scientists, is not the magic word that solves all proplems. It is a growing knowledge day in day out that raises more questions than it solves. Also, you should be aware that scinetists themselves are influenced by ideologies and philosophies of their own. Like you did, they impose their prejudice on people. And if opposed, call people names. They are blind people to put the comment straight to you my galool freind. Take for intance, although they are aware that random events do not cause anything other than irregularity and confusion, they still claim that the marvellous order, plan, and design seen both in the universe and in living organisms arose by chance. What is that?. Do you have any comments about EVOLUTION?. I wrote in big letters, because I don't want it escape from your attention. You want a scientific discussion right?. Why not give your Revelation from charles darwin a shot and see if you go anywhere with it. I will be waiting for you here MISTER KNOW ALL BRAINIAC DUDE. "You are truly intoxicated with a whole jumble of contradictory ideas, " I knew, a civilized man like you would resort to insult. That is what they do when their stupid comments are crashed one by one. I get a kick out of the way they associate the civil manners with them and call others whatever they want. That is because civilized people are not applicable to any good manners. They are untouchables by anylaw. Do what you like, as you like, and how you like best is their motto. "most of them nothing to do whatsoever with Islam as a Faith(which by the way DOES believe that planet Earth is flat! sorry can't resist that one)" I think, you are confusing the bible with the Quran. For your info, the Quran is not a scientific book that teaches people how to invent things and go about driving cars or etc. It is a guide book for the soul. Souls draw strengh from it and nourish from it. However, to prove you wrong in your LIES against the Quran, it happens that we find in the Quran, the opposite of what you accuse of it. THE EARTH IS ROUND AND CIRCLE. And the islamic universities in the early days thought that concept when THE WEST was teaching the earth is flat. Remember what happened to GALILEO And all the sceince teachers?. Some of them fled to Islamic countries to seek refuge. Need I mention that islamic spain was the host to many western students?. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU START SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE TO THE CROWD. If you refuse, you will be laughed out of the forumss and I GUARANTEE IT.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:33 pm Also, before you go any further discourse, I will appreciate as my people will, if you, Galool smart, can prove and support with evidence where the Quran says the earth is flat!. I can't resist this one too GALOOL. Don't forget that next time you log on . You said "most arguments had nothing to do with islam" denoting islam has nothing to contribute to the wise minds. That is where you are wrong. Because islam is just that wisdom and clear thinking of the mind. "2.269 He grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted receives indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding." "3.164 Allah did confer a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error." It is sweet to read the Quran with calm and easiness. I promise, you will find endless wisdom in it if you care to read it. Don't rely on others to spoonfeed you about it. I can tell a lost brother when I see one. You fit the profile of an ignorant atheist or whatever you associate with. Stick around you will learn something from people in here. I am waiting for the next comment you write.
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:35 pm To Asad waan akhriyay inta badan asad qoraaladadiisa waxaana ii muuqata in uu difaaco islaamka waana oga mahad celinaya su'aashaydu waxay ku socotay ninka yiri asad waa gaal
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| | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:07 pm Salaamucalaykum waraxmatulaahi wabarakaatuh Muslimiinta meehsan soo booqataay, ABU SALMAN, Arintaa aniga iyo walaalkay Asad na dhex martay waxay ahayd shaydaan wax uu wato, waananu ka heshiinay hada, arintaasina waxa ku amaanan walaalkayo formerguest oo si dagan iigu faahfaahiyay oo ii sheegay in meesha isafgaranwaa ka jiro kaliya, Waxayna ahayd "friendly fire". Aniguna Qaladkaygii waan qaatay waanan ka raali geliyay Asad, Dhamaysanay Asad-na wuu iga aqbalay wuuna iga raali noqday oo wuu icafiyay aad iyo aadna waan ugu mahad celinayaa. Abu Salman, Arintaasi halkaas ayay ku dhamaatay ayaan u malaynayaa. Way gudhay. magacaygii yahuudDille-na waan iska badalayaa ee la socda. oo magac Muslim ayaan la soo baxayaa cawada laga bilaabo. Salaamu Calaykum waraxmatullaahi Wabarakaatuh,
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:51 am Formerguest thanks brother for trying, i hope he listens to what you have to say, inshallah he will Galool Formerguest adequatly, answered all your accusations I will try also to pour water into an upside down beaker.(you have demonstrated your unreasonable charactor) I am sorry if my words were incoherant, i will make things harder for you to misunderstand. 1. I wasn't argueing against rationality using rationality, as i explained a muslim is one who sees things corrcetly, with his heart and mind combined i lay no claim to rationality and one of my fundermental points was that human beings are not rational- you have not adressed this point 2. i do not seek Ill to 2 thirds of the world, i have no idea where you got that idea from.Did i mention anything of the sort? Why are you circling the perphery of the central topic? which is "rationality" 3. i don't think Europe should feed our butt, forgive me if i came across that way, i object to them spray painting cabbages blue and burying them. I oject to that thought processes,becasue under "rationality" it is a perfectly logical thing to do "look out for yourself" the athesists method of salavtion is quite sad actually, so why would i wish ill to such a sad people?, i will not go into the complexities of world food production, casue i doubt your sincerity in learning anything. Just a quick point, food was around before science, bumper crops benefit no one but agribusniness. 4. When i saw "we" i talk about the Islamic civisisation, it is my civilisation, just as it is the new muslims civilisation , islam has inspired the greatest minds,i will try and answer your question even though i noticed some resentment, there is no monarchy in Islam, soverignty lies with Allah (swt) 5. i have nothing aginst Tolerance per sa, just a situation in which it is used by a soverign west as to dictate its meaning 6. My answers have everything to do with Islam Islam incorparates the whole world, you may be quite limited in your understanding of it. For example i can look at this world, and contemplate upon Allah's(swt) creation, i can use Allah (swt) giudance to forbide the wrong and enjoin the good. I can even quite easily with out even reading the Quran, contemplate the wonders of the world and come to have knowldge of Allah (swt), if i was intelligent.It would probably take me my whole life time, but i wish to take advantage of my youth,i know enough to know, that i will never know all there is to know, that is why i bend down to Allah, surrender my intellect and ask to be guided on the straight path 17 times a day (if i manage to compelte all five prays ..asking for the straight path equals 17 times) 7.Which part of my post contradicted each other, i have reread it and it may arguably have been jumbled, but i can't see the contrdictions, and you certainly haven't pointed anyout.. so anyone?.. help me out here! 8.Re read your message and reread mine and then reconsider whose message more closly resembles a "rail" against something 9.i wouldn't advocate chopping any bits off of you, i think you have lost the greatest parts of you already wasalaam
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 01:52 am Common. I am about to live work and head home. I wanna let you know that your answers are as much appreciated. Don't feel oblidged to excuse yourself from writing your share of thoughts. I like yours more than I do mine. wassalaamu caleykum. By the way, I will see the intelligent somali guy who-knows-it-all and what he says about the postings. He can handle lesser brains can't he?.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 01:53 am Common. I am about to leave work and head home. I wanna let you know that your answers are as much appreciated. Don't feel oblidged to excuse yourself from writing your share of thoughts. I like yours more than I do mine. wassalaamu caleykum. By the way, I will see the intelligent somali guy who-knows-it-all and what he says about the postings. He can handle lesser brains can't he?.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:00 am Comrades I think it would be wiser if you didn't make a habit of insulting people who maitain opinions at variance with your own. No one here working these threads is stupid - maybe stubborn or dogmatic or a little hot-headed, but not stupid.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:45 am I said Again. Galoo=Mad_mac Can any one notice his writing stayle? I surely can......MAD_MAC be a Man enough be you!
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:17 pm "No one here working these threads is stupid - maybe stubborn or dogmatic or a little hot-headed, but not stupid." including you and golol, right, mad mac? ;-)
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:32 pm Formerguest&Common Do I detect delusions of grandeur FG? you and Your people? not an encouraging sign. I am not an advocate for Evolution or Science for that matter, but if you need a dollop of faith(in science) to believe that reptiles turned into birds, you surely need a whole mountain range of blind unquestioning faith to accept that people have been made of Mud(Arrahman:14), earth made in two days, sky coerced into being from smoke(Fussillat:9,10)(and I am not going to repeat Biraq, its' too embarrassing) FG: please read Common's posting, you will understand my argument about Rationality, as it seems the irony of using "perfectly rational" argument against the very concept of Rationality was lost on you. Common: your animosity towards the West, Christians, Kaffirs, Jews, Russians etc(and perhaps anyone who disagrees with you?) was explicit in your contribution. That makes at least 2/3 of mankind. FG: If I succeed in making you laugh, I would have accomplished a worthwhile feat. After all, it can't be much fun praying or poring over the Holy Quran all day, can it? And yes, look up Al-Ghashiyat:20(for the hundredth time perhaps?) It will say the same thing that all three monotheistic faiths said, ie Planet Earth is flat. Don't blame them though. must have looked that way in the endless expanses of the Middle-eastern desert. Common: I am not so sure that surrendering all your intellect like that is such a good idea. After all the Almighty have given it to you so that you can use it perhaps? It sort of defeats the point if everybody gave it back. Anyway, I think you are a shrewd fella and you kept quite a bit of it as is evident in your second and third contributions.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 12:56 pm Anonymous I assure you I am NOT Mad-Mac. I came across this forums only three days ago. Anyway, if someone was using multiple names, does that affect their contributions? I think not. But trust me I claim who I claim to be.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 01:09 pm Yahuuddille, Asad iyo dhammaan Yahuuddille: walaal waad ku mahadsan tahay sida wanaagsan oo aad u garqaadatay, oo aad uga soo laabatey hadalkaagii iyo sida aad u raalli galisey walaalka Asad. Kuligeen waa gafnaa ama qaldanaa, waxaase la isku dhaafey ka soo noqoshada. Asad: walaal waad ku mahadsan tahay dadaalkaaga, laakiin waxaan doonayaa in aan kuu sheego waanadaan, adiga oo raali ah: Markaad wax qoreysid inta badan waxaad soo qortaa ama soo qaadataa hadalkii uu yiri qofkii hore, ka dibna jawaabtaada baad u raacisaa si talan taali ah. Hadaba in kastoo eysan xumayn hadana waxey yareyn kartaa ama badeli kartaa sida dadku u fahmaan figradaada. Haddiise aad jeceshay in aad wadadaas raacdid, raac, waxaase ku sheegtaa ama ku cadeysaa isla qoraalkaaga in hadalkaas uu yiri qofka aad u jawaabeysid iyo sida aad uga soo horjeedid ama u ayideysid, waxaan u jeeda ma ku filna kooteyshin maarkisku("..." . Ugu danbeyna iska yaree dufaaca badan oo tooska ah. Dhammaan: Hadal badan bar waa dambi, marka walaalayaalow, wax qor uun yeysan idin ka raacin, ee ha loo qoro: maxaa faa'iddo leh oo la sheegi karaa, sidee baase dadka loogu sheegi karaa, waxaa la qorayaa ma ku haboon yihiin bogaan furan. Tusaale: Fiiriya qoraaladaan, intooda badan, iyo cinwaanka bogan"Somali jews". Ka warama! Intee baa cinwaankan xiiriir la leh? Iga raali ahaada.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 01:33 pm Anonymous Hmm. Magaca boggan haddaan raacno, jawaabtu waa maya. Soomaali Yuhuud ahi ma jirto. Dood aan faaiido lahayni ma jirto-xataa Yuhuuddile tiisa.
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| | Friday, October 27, 2000 - 04:20 pm GALOOL. Welcome to somalinet. --------------------- "Do I detect delusions of grandeur FG? you and Your people? not an encouraging sign. " May be we don't fit in your protocol of good people. It could be our beleifs that make you despise us. I tell you though, you could be the wrong one here who is delusional and have nothing to prove except his empty personality and make-beleif ideas that hold no ground whatsoever. "earth made in two days" First thing first, Allah told us in different verses how he plans things, how different things and matters are executed, some of those things have specific time lengths attached to them. All in All, A DAY NEAR ALLAH IS NOT A DAY IN OUR RECKONING i.e according to our world a day is twenty four hours, but to ALLAH it is More than that. Let us find out what the Quran says ABOUT THAT and the higher dimensions we don't see with our own eyes: "22: 47 Allah says: "and surely a day near your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning." For ALLAH, a thousand year of our time equals to him twenty four hours of our time. "32: 5 Allah states: "He decides all affairs from the heavens to the earth; then these[affairs] go [back] up to Him in a day, the length of which is a thousand years of your reckoning." I think, this is clear to you as well, since it is written in plain and simple english. How long do the angels and rux(gabriel) take to ascend to ALLAH?. "70: 4 "The angels and the ruh(GABRIEL) ascend upto Him in a day the length of which is fifty thousand years" This is the information Allah gave us in the Quran relating to different matters. Having explained the length of days NEAR ALLAH and the length of a day for US HUMANS in this world, WE CAN CONCLUDE that the creation of the universe and the days mentioned in the Quran COULD BE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OR THE SIMPLE TWO DAYS WE HAVE IN THIS WORLD. Both interpretations can be found in the tafsiir of IBNU-KATHIIR or in his book called "Al bidaayah wannihaayah" "The begginning and the end". In short, Allah creates things by a simple order and word which is "KUN" "BE" and it becomes. ALLAH was and is able to have created everything in a time less than a second, but he did that only for a reason known to him SUBXANAH and may be the teaching of proccess to us HUMANS. ALLAH KNOWS BEST OF HIS PLANS. I am not to ask nor Am I to put words as to why he does things. But for your confusion and may be you understand things more clear I did what I could. "to accept that people have been made of Mud(Arrahman:14)" It is a scientific proof that human body when chemically analyzed, contains the same material and organics of the earth. The same elements of the earth is found in the body. I haven't seen yet someone or a scientist that denies that yet. They just avoid embarrassmnet of their weakness against the truth in religion. I don't have to waste time on this. You better come up with more accusations of the Quran that deserve an attention and more investigation. "sky coerced into being from smoke(Fussillat:9,10)" What does a gaseous elements in the air look like that are visible?. Smoke. Don't they?. May be you haven't been reading the science books lately. If you did, you would have found theories after theories that the universe contained gaseous elements before it came into being in huge blast called "BIG BANG OF THE UNIVERSE". Any search engine would give you some info about the subject. It is only in it's infancy but Allah told us thousand and some years ago that He separated the heavens and the earth apart from each other. "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were fused together, then we separated them . . ." (Qur'an 21:30). Muslims at the time didn't need science to prove that and we sure don't need it now. If we find something resembling that, FINE, if not, FINE TOO. After all, the belief in the supreme god is what beleivers will be rewarded for. They haven't seen him in person and yet they beleive in him. You can take the certainty of his existence or brush aside the notion, it is up to you. But you can't denounce the Quran with empty rhetorics. It is just futile: "10.37 This Qurán is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds." Other disbeleivers made demands from the messenger scw. They wanted to co-erce him to their demands if they wanted to beleive in it, but what was the response FROM ALLAH: "13.31 If there were a Qurán with which mountains were moved, or the earth were cloven asunder, or the dead were made to speak, (this would be the one!) But, truly, the Command is with Allah in all things! Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the Right)? But the Unbelievers,- never will disaster cease to seize them for their (ill) deeds, or to settle close to their homes, until the promise of Allah come to pass, for, verily, Allah will not fail in His promise. " I am running out of time, I will be back inshallah to finish where I left off. Untill then, behave well, and stay confused.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 01:50 am Galool I am but scared to say something in case it is wrong. May Allah forgive me and you.For teh contents of this page. Firstly formerguest is right, mankind, is made from mud, modern science has added nothing to that statement,they also have recently reverted to the idea that human beings are much more closely linked than they ever thought, inaitailly tehy belived that mankind developed simultaniously in different parts of the globe, now they belive that we all had one mother.."the search for eve" is a nice read so i guess the dollaps of "unquestioning" belief are roughly equal,(for a non believer).Inshallah after studying the earth for eternity they will realise they are muslims and start praying The reason i put unquestiong in inverted comma's that the root word of Iman is to conform, and a muslims faith is a confirmation which brings me to why I surrender my intellect. We currently use 5% of our brain, genuis perhaps use 6%.I surrender it becasue i am acutely aware of my limitations, although i would love to be more aware, i think you may have heard the saying the man that knows something knows that he knows nothing at all.I surrender my intellect to learn more,I would argue that people not quite unlike your self sacrifice there intellect. From a muslim perspective if you are not a slave of Allah, you are a slave of your own desires. Now i come to the notion of delusion. while you claim that pouring over the Quran can't be much fun, a muslim doesn't view the object of his life as fun, fun historically has been the object of fools, court jesters were invoved in the business of fun and were employed in the pursuit of it, when they were not funny their heads were chopped off( you may enjoy researching that lose body parts crew?) So i would argue people after fun are deluded With regards to the irony of using rationity to dennounce rationality, i will again reiterate that i wasn't being rational, i am never rational!(God forbid)<smile>, and wonder how my message could be at once "jumbled and intoxicated with contraditory thoughts" and at the same time rational <smile> Lastly i would like to beilve that i hold no animosity to anyone in particular, i am a witness to injustice and seek to curtail it. Do you not think it is a little steroetypical to imagine i burst into a fit of rage and froth at the mouth when i mention Kuffar. Kuffar on the whole,are a misguided people whether they are communist, or Agnostic, or a feverant capitalist, or atheisit you fall under the rubric of Kuffar, one phenomenon , they don't listen to the will of Allah (swt), i make no bones about that statement. However i get along with most kuffar i know, as we share the same human condtion on this earth, they are just not guided. If i take issues with their actions, does that make me boil with animosty? the "sacred rage"idea is not impressive and higly inaccurate sahib, i don't hate anything but hateful actions, don't distrust anything but distrust(stole that from former guest!<smile> . You mock me for merely pointing out these bad actions?. On the topic of disagreement, we can disgree, but when you have formely agreed that i am in disagreement with life, where is the room for discussuion?. For example, my conception of you is that you are misguided as with most people, if people see me wearing a long peice of white cloth their conception of me is that i am not right in the head and dare i say "irational" the great inpardenable sin.A anaylis of both our posts would see, who in society holds the upper hand, i don't mind your dogmatism, i question myself daily however Brother lets skip the steeotypes so we can have a real discussion, i get the feeling you hiding behind my "animostiy" becasue you have no real purpose but to make fun, of my condition Mad mac i would imagine your message pertained to Galool as well as myself, otherwise i think it would be unfair, i understand that as a muslim, most people expect higher standards of me than the average joe, but please don't use this to your advantage, otherwise i spend all day explaing things like why i have no animosity to 2 thirds of the worlds poulation can we elevate the conversation or this is my stop peace
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 03:16 am OK, I feel pretty comfortable with all of you to reveal my true identity. My name is John McPherson (Hence the user-name, my real life nick-name, MAD MAC). I was the Quick Reaction Force S2 in Somalia. A book will be published soon called Falcon Brigade (it's not out yet). The Author was my boss, COL Lawrence Casper. I am an Army Officer. I work in Ulm Germany as an exchange officer with the German Army. You can confirm my identity in this book. I was a Captain then. My Somali is pathetic, so I certainly am not Galool. I think I have about a 60 word vocabulary. So everyone here should be satisfied I am not Galool but am who I have always said I was.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 03:30 am Common. You make me wanna go back to school just for the english. Mine sucks compared to yours bro. How long did it take you to manage it like these?. It comes naturally to you I presume. And thanks, that was great response to our intellectual brother GALOOL. I hope he listens to his instincts rather than the garbage they fed him in the schools. People like him wrote the books and he should quiz them as well. If he is sincere in questioning everything, why not question what people concoct in the text books that become outdated in a year or so?. Blind following is not good. We get accused of it too ofte but the accusers are the true blinded folks. Mad. Can you elaborate a little futher what made you more comfortable today?. I care to know.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 04:39 am Formerguest. Brother, you should see my somali, i need english otherwise i could not communicate! My Dad makes fun of me all the time, he thinks i am a retard, my little sister speaks somali better than me,My moms feels sorry for me speaks to me in english (don't you just love mothers) everyone thinks i am a loser, i even went to Hargeisa the last year for the first time in my life..and i leant a little more, i used to force myself to read the newspaper. I plan to learn it fully inshallah, plus Arabic and french inshallah.I also need to learn the Quran first and foremost so maybe Arabic may come before somali. I grew up in England and last year i didn't know how to pray. My knowledge is still so little on Islam that i am ashamed. so brother please know, that you hold pearls i would cherish forever if i had, Isamic knowledge and Somali langauge. John Mcpherson i swear that name sounds familar, perhaps i came across it in either "Black hawk down" or "Me and against my brother". Me against my brother was such a cool book, balanced and informative, compared to the piece of crap called black hawk down. I also read another book on Somali about this black dude. i will never forget his stupid comment of "whats that smell"when he touched down in Mogaischo and his friend replying "get used to it thats africa"..then he went into a tirade about how he hated somalis and used to play bruce springsteen's "born in the U.S" at loud volumes on a rooftop, man did that guy bug me. I prayed for you folk, last night May Allah accept them.. i have a few things to say that might make you guys smile. I read recently that King hassan (or his son, they all are either Mohamed's or Hassans) is defined as the Regligious and secular leader of Morocco <smile> Yesterday or the day before a group of Americans came in the computer room.. while i was typing.. i considered rounding them up and bargining with Mr clinton over his inapproprate behavoiur in the middle east. (just a joke!.)He was in the papers yesterday ralling for his wife campaining in new york and Robert di niro was there and he was teaching clinton how to say "fuggetaabbouutet". i would make a better Mafia guy, i would hold a long curved sword to the head of one of his citizens and curl my lips, cock my muslim head and say "you tawikn to me?..wiseguy".. <look left and right> seeing as we in the mood of giving out information, my name is Yassin
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 05:00 am Common. How old are you?. I couldn't resist this one too. I guess I am ever the curious guy in the house. I am thirty and I hate to say that. By the way, Somali is easy. The dialect in hargeysa is kind of tough bro (I know I will be killed for saying that). I am from the south of somalia. Mogadisho. I like the spirit of your mom. Moms never make you feel alienated. I miss my mom. I hadn't seen her more than ten years now. Bro, I will have to call it quits for now. I need to do some work. See you next time. Leave your e-mail for me so we can have a private "getting to know marathon" type of thing. Wassalaamu caleykum.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 05:14 am And I forgot, tell your parents that I respect them for raising such a bright young man. Often good parents mean good kids. Mat Allah give them back their efforts in multiples and more from his mercy bro common.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 05:24 am Thanks formerguest i am 21
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 07:34 am Ahhh!!!Commom! Common! Common! Only 21! Now that explains a lot. Hey, I am actually starting to admire you a lot,(honest) because at 21 I also had passionately-held views on everything. Life to me was black and white. There were no shades of grey. And Islam is of course great for providing simplistic, straightforward answers to life(and death). There is Muslim Vs Kaffir, Heaven vs Hell, carrot and stick.(wouldn't it have been very nice of Allah if he were to provide a little piece of land between Hell and Heaven for Agnostics, or for people who find Heaven a little bit on the dull side). FG: So if your theory is right, it may actually have taken thousands of `Human days' to erect planet earth? FG, I would be careful espousing such ideas if I were you. Wouldn't it suggest that Allah is not afterall as powerful as you claim him to be? If he can just order it to BE and and it BECOMES,(kun fa ya Kun) why sweat over it for thousands of days? or do you think his Mightiness needed the exercise? What would "Your People" say, FG? I don't despise you or any other human being. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I am impressed by how you try to sidestep difficult questions completely and answer unrelated questions(you should consider becoming a politician you know) What happened to Flat vs. Round argument? And can you tell me where exactly it says in the Quran that Earth is round? Has anything been added to the Holy book since I last read it(which I admit was around 18 years ago) Common: I appreciated a lot of what you said in your last contribution. I fully accept that there is a world of difference between disagreeing with people's political systems even believing they are misguided, and actually hating them. I am sorry if I stereotyped you. Having said that I am not too sure about this "Slave" business. I would rather not be enslaved by anyone. I will particualrly avoid mentioning this when proselytising to our African-American brothers. I mean after 400 hundreds of enslavement by other humans, they would hardly look forward to being enslaved again - by a Deity this time. Can anyone explain to me why the concept of Fear of Allah, being Allah's slave etc is encouraged in Islam? Over 30 years of being a Muslim and I never understood that one! Simply, enslavement is not something that is particularly appealing to humans. Secondly, If a human is afraid of something, he/she is likely to react in one of two ways: Attempt self-defence or run away from the object of their fear. Since neither of these is impossible to do against Allah, the third possible reaction is to say: Hey c'mon you big bully, do your worst! Am I not right? Looking forward to your answers.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 10:30 am Formerguest Well, it didn't just happen today, it's been building up for a while. The same people keep visiting this site. Everyone on it, while sometimes letting their emotions get the better of them, is basically intelligent and well meaning. That comes through when you read all of their posts and take them in the aggragate. So I feel comfortable with all of you. I would feel comfortable meeting you in a restaruant and talking about Islam or politics or whatever. Common I'm not in Black Hawk Down. I think the book is factually accurrate as far as it goes, so I would not call it a piece of crap. It does a good job of telling the Ranger side of the story. It does not do justice to our side of the story (the QRF) or the SNA side of the story. That would have been zet more years of research and a book that became unmanageably long. I have not heard of "Me Against My Brother". Who wrote it? I want to order it. I am a carniverous Somali book reader. I hope it's in English cause I can't speak Somali. Galool You sound like an apostate. Don't give your name out here or Asad will likely show up at your place and kill you. He thinks killing apostates is OK.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 04:05 pm I THINK THE SOMALI PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO PALESTINE, AND FIGHT THE JEWS LIKE THE FOUGHT THEM SELF. I MEAN TO SAY, SO THAT THEY CAN PURIFY THEY SIN. BUT STILL I RESPECT THEM TO WHAT THEY DID TO THE AMERICAN ARMY, THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD WALK ON THE SOMALI PEOPLE, BUT THE PROVED THEM WRONG. SO ALL YOU SOMALI PEOPLE WHO HAVE KILLED/LOOTED/RAPED ECT... PEOPLE PLEASE GO TO PALESTINE AND KILL MORE JEWS AND CLEAN YOUR SINS ALL JEWS MUST DIE!
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 04:38 pm Galool. Truthfulness and recognizing the extent of knowledge you have, will always be the key to your understanding of what you don't know. Many people who disagree with the Quran try to present themselves as knowledgable in it to create some credibility and instill doubts into the minds of those they are conversing with. How deep is your knowledge of the Quran?. Better yet, how deep is your knowledge of Arabic?. This is the key to your answer of the earth being flat or not in the verse you quoted. Does the the word SADHXIL ARDHI in the Quran mean the earth is flat if you telling the truth?. Or if you know the meaning of it?. Also the word is used for the surface of round objects. In arabic geometry, the word sadhxi is used in the formula of finding the surface. And if the earth was to accomodate what is on it of vast species it has to have space. Yusuf Ali translation says "Spread out" when tranlating "Wa idal ardhu sudhixat". And that is how people of knowledge understood the meaning. You can buy a book called "THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND THE SCIENCE" written by a french doctor called "MAURICE BUCAILLE". You will find in that book what relates to modern science in the Quran. However, again for the second time, I will tell you the Quran is not for science. It wasn't revealed so that people can learn science. Knowledge is the gift of god. Allah praised himself for teaching humans what they know: "1. Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- 2. Created man, out of a leech-like clot: 3. Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- 4. He Who taught (the use of) the Pen,- 5. Taught man that which he knew not. (95:1-5). Also galool, What humans achieved is like nothing compared to ALLAH'S knowledge and what is out there in the universe. "109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." 110. Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is One God. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." 18:109-110. "for people who find Heaven a little bit on the dull side)." What is it that you are looking for in paradise?. Your perception of paradise is handicapped by your views of this life and your lack of knowledge in islam itself my brother. Galool, On top of what beleivers will have as a reward for their work in this life, seeing ALLAH is the best motivation to work towards heaven. Also, as we are told, there is what the human eye haven't seen, or an ear heard of, or a human heart can think of. It is all left to the immagination and what one wants out of paradise. To the extent where people get what comes to their mind. That is true service. However, personally speaking, I would like heaven because I would like to see ALLAH'S FACE. "FG: So if your theory is right, it may actually have taken thousands of `Human days' to erect planet earth?" I told you the explanation of days in the Quran according to the Quran. However, My responsibility is not to give people my choice of tafsiir unless There is danger in twisiting the CAQIIDA of the people. If you insist of knowing my preference on the subject, I SUPPORT THE SIX DAYS without putting any other translation on them. I take them as they are said without tafsiir. I hope that leaves no misundertanding on your part unless willingly as common from people like you. " I am impressed by how you try to sidestep difficult questions completely and answer unrelated questions(you should consider becoming a politician you know)" Bro Galool, Let us all be fare in dealing with each other. I gain nothing from appearing smarter than you are. Our ideas are the supreme witnesses of our intellect. If you get bitten by what I write, don't complain, it is not my fault. Blame yourslef for being short in viable notions. "Has anything been added to the Holy book since I last read it(which I admit was around 18 years ago) " On top of what I said in the opening of this letter, I add that you don't need to flatter yourself. Your knowledge is zero. And if you do have Quranic knowledge, you are like satan who became apostate after he witnessed so much wisdom. Remember Ibliis used to be knowledgable but apostated for the refusal of simple order?. May Allah give us his guidance untill we assure ourselves into heaven. I will let other brothers comment on the other issues you raised. Lest they have more sounding explanation than I do. This is all I could write now. Bro galool, I hope you will have an open mind and investigate more of the truth rather than being broad in in your current situation.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 05:06 pm Hussein Aidid. Bro, if you are relative to the guy you used his name, I advice you to be mindful of the negative comments you can bring unto your tribe. Every tribe has a bad apple, and this guy is the worst apple his tribe had to produce. I hope you understand the importance of avoiding an invitation to sick people and you sound sick for that matter. As far as your "KILL THE JEWS" is concerned, I say it can't be done except if it is in accordance with islam. You can't just kill people for the sake of their disbeleive unless you have a legitimate avenue of doing so. Learn islam to serve it well if you were sincere in your diatribe. I don't like people who hypocritically abuse the forums to create more proplems than we already have. Allah didn't say for our sins to be forgiven we have to kill people. That proves your intentions if nothing else. You are either an ignorant or a someone trying to give the wrong impression of islam.
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| | Saturday, October 28, 2000 - 06:17 pm Mahmoud: My mom once told me that the yibir clan claim to be jews, I remembered that by reading one of the comments written by someone, but I don't know for a fact if there are somali jews, let's just hope there aren't any. Asad: Asalamu Alaikum, just wanted to let you know that tormenting mad mac was a hobby of mine but lately I've gotten lazy, you've taken over my job and you're good at it too. I'm proud of you. Common aka Yassin: You're such a sweety how old are you? Mad Mac: Hi Johnny...lol...why are you telling us this personal info about yourself???
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 12:24 am Sweetgirl (Still a great user name - though I question its accuracy. You seem about as sweet as Madeleine Albright. Nothing personal) Anyway, I revealed the personal info because it does no harm and elminates doubts as to my being Galool, although frankly it's hard for me to see how people would draw that conclusion. I have discovered another problem with Islam, although of course none of you would see it as a problem. When Clinton made his West Africa tour he made a statement which stuck with me. He said words to the effect that it was nice to see African countries making progress adopting Western economic and political practices. All I could think of is what makes him think they want to be little reproductions of America. They have their own cultures and political histories and must find their own mixes that work for them. We shouldn't be trying to make the world in our image. If people acsk for our expertise in a given area, fine, but don't shove it down their throats. Islam has the same problem. It's prractitioners want to shove it down your throat - they act like Christian missionaries only worse. They are so convinced their path is the only correct path that they hold all others in disdain. This is a mistake.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 01:04 am Galool. I invite you to read what mostly secular scientists said about the Quran in terms of science after they studied or were requested to help understand the meaning of certain verses scientifically: It is purily their opinion. I want you see what they think compared your unlucky self attitude towards the Quran: Dr. Maurice Bucaille -------------------------- Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge. After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'ân of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that : ""...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'ân could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times." "The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'ân untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?" William Hay --------------- Professor Hay is one of the best known marine scientist in the USA. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindanî met with him and asked him many questions about the marine surface, the divider between upper and lower sea, and about the ocean floor and marine geology. "I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'ân, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages." And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'ân, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being." [1] Professor Armstrong ------------------------ Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA. Question: "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?" ANSWER: "That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed. Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen." [1] Yushidi Kusan ------------------- Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan. "I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'ân, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'ân and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe." [1] Alfred Kroner ----------------- "Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case." "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here... If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'ân in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'ân is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago." [1] Gerald C. Goeringer ---------------------- Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA. "...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'ânic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature." [1] And finally for the morning: Tejatat Tejasen ------------------- Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand. "In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'ân... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'ân fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah. I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah... The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim." [1] Khulaasah: Galool, looking at those people, who had no islamic background whatsoever like you did, and the way they are surprised to see what the Quran says about some scientific subjects that they know very well, You can conclude that you are very unlucky man indeed. To have been born in a islamic society and end up a disbeleiver is the worst thing that can happen to somebody. Ilaahey haku soo hanuuniyo oo haku tuso wanaagga islaannimada leedahay jahligana hakaa saaro. Intaanan illoobin ka horna haddaad rabto sawirrada nimanka aqoon yahannada inaad aragto tag: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 01:25 am Let me voice my concerns Galool i managed to find some humility in your post, masked under a few characteristics i need not mention. Thank you for the apology, it is accepted. My age is not a barrier to knowledge, yeah people learn more with time, but brother sometimes you can find in the rivers what you can't find in the oceans. I think this is what has happened here. With regards to my Islamic knowledge my understanding of it is not remotly sloganistic, again i imagine you steotyping me as a zealot shouting "Islam is the answer!" without asking the questions.If you observe "Islamist" organisations who function like that you will notice that they have a very socialist views, P.LO. socialist organisation. Qadaffi again socailism, they have a "i have been oppressed must be liberated" type of outlook which really isn't very Islamic, the greens of today, are basically the reds of yesterday, good book called the Failure of Political Islam, by french dude called Roy Oliver. I am not easily explainable sociological, but hey you can try if thats your thing. There is a hadith that says "Knowledge of Allah (swt) is in the Good opinion of the slave"  something to that effect) if you take Islam to be simplistic then that is that is what you will discover, if your mind is simplistic your outlook will be, you shall expect simplicity at every corner and be greeted with such. With regards to my anaylsis about Kuffar being one phenomenon i heard this lecture once by Sheik Hamza Yusef, a very insightful scholar, i will relate what he said, as it is relevant.Deaseses have both signs and symptoms. the signs being the outward maifestaions, ie what you can see, the symptoms being what the patients relates to you about how he is feeling. Syhillis is a disease that has many signs,ie different outward manifestations, one doctor said if you understand syhillis, you understand 80% of pathology, Syhillis can take many forms ourtwardly, but it has the same symptons, people feel the same insde. We live in Syhillitic culture in the west, the outward signs may differ, but the inward manifestations are the same. I hope that clears up your grey areas. Lastly it is interesting how you picked up on the slave of Allah, thing not the slave of your own desires thing. May Allah (swt) cure your mentality, you see being a slave and being enslaved are two different phenonmens, being concious of my slave postion , is in fact liberating. The slave brings nothing to the hosue of the generuous one, all the prayers, the fasting is nothing, but for my benefit, i have no chance in heaven expect for Allah(swt) mercy, i am truly a slave. That word upsets, you huh, Slave, slave. What is it in your pschye that is disturbed my being a slave of Allah?(swt),i cannot be enslaved by no mortal, i cannot fear any human. If all the huamns on this earth were to conspire to do me damage, with out the will of Allah(swt) they could not achive. if only you knew the joy. With regards to fear of Allah(swt), there is no refuge from Allah(swt) except to Allah (swt). Idea is to have fear of Allah, that you are concious of Allah presence and this has a postive effect on your behavour, same way as those hidden cameras in department stores have a postive effect on shoplifters behaviour, once you realise you are being watched your bavoiur changes, thjis is basic phycology stuff, i have no idea where your fight or flight theory is involved. mad mac. perhaps i have been tolerant of your riddiclous staments while i have been concentrating on Galool i will give you a day to retract your "they act like Christain missionaries only worse" Statement, this will also give you some time to do some reading, casue you really realy really have no idea what you talking about i seperated that part of your comment to be fair and aslo give you time to think about the actual utter absurdity of it. Think it through!, if you are still happy with it, <shaking my head>...you shall be proved wrong. With regards to your Clinton west Africa tour, if you think that was bad, you should have seen the Queen of England in Ghana praising their "commintment to democracy". I mean for crying out loud she is the divinly appointed.lol. She was noticable less quiet when she was in Australia about the republications "commitment to democracy", by tryna get rid of her Royal behind. I would refer you to John Stuart Mills distinction between self regarding acts and other regarding acts. You analogy is weak, because we all know that america pursues it ideology out of self regarding acts, you have admited this yourself, although i had to squeeze it out of you after lengthy debate (we should admit the obvious far more sooner), while muslims offer Islam as a blessing to mankind, we are told not to be selfish about it, and believe me it aint nice or easy explaining Islam to a hostile world,. Again i shall give you a chance to retract the "hold all others in Disdain", Mad mac, is it that you don't know, or that you seek to reaarange facts to suit your mind frame?. Islam recognizes that so many prohets were set down by Allah (swt) to all people, and respects and ackowledges the 25 prophets we know about from the Quran, with people like Buddha, we say Allah alone knows if he was a Prophet, given the depth of the Buddist tradtion it is probably likely, however, we have the Quran, its purpose THE CRITERA, it lets us know, what is truth and what isn't... it is again a CRITERA, so why would we follow a maze when we have the straight path?, and why would we leave humans to be lost, when Prophet Mohamed (pbuh)was sent to all of mankind. Not muslims, not Arabs, all of mankind. With regards to your point of being overzealous, i agree, everyone likes chocolate noone likes it shoved down their throat, but you should understand the intentions and then notice the difference! verily actions are by intentions only! I heard this story about this man, who came from Mauritaina to California, he came straight to a Masjid, and there was someone who was thinking about coming into the fold of Islam. the guy couldn't speak english, but said "tell this man he must! become a muslim, and that by Allah i gurantee him falicity in this life and the hereafter", don't you see my brother, the urgency? if we believe in heaven and hell, why would we choose hell for you? Sahib you truly, truly misunderstand our intentions, again i explain, we are not concerned overly with this world, it is not an ideology that we seek to convey okay.. about the book... i liked black hawk down too, until i read "me against my brother" at war in somalia sudan and rwanda, by Scott peterson or patterson, he was a journalist there the same time as you folk you will like it i think. Black hawk down, was a peice of crap from a Somali perspective, i can see how the gunhoe would like it though formerguest my email is yassin_9@hotmail.com
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 02:37 am Mad-Mac Really! I better be careful then. One thing though, the Somalis usually don't kill for Allah, they kill for their clan. They will make plenty of hot air about Islam, but when it comes down to the crunch, a Somali's loyalty lies with his/her clan. I can bet you anything that almost everyone who uses this forums (with the possible exception of Common) were at one time or the other supporters of their Clan's Militia gang. Last time Somalis fought for Allah was during the Mad Mullah time, and even then his base support came from his own clan and was eventually defeated because he managed to antagonise too many clans. Another telling story is when Siyad Barre rounded-up, and publicly executed 11 of the most famous religious men in the country. From such outwardly fervent Islamic society, the least you would have expected is some public demonstration, a strike or two perhaps. Not a murmur. 4 years later SB court-martialled and executed 11 army officers who tried to overthrow him. They happened to be from the same clan. Few days later the whole clan crossed the border into Ethiopia and started a ferocious guerilla camapaign. Somali's undying loyalty to clan in a way shows Mother Africa frustrating yet another imported socio-political system, which is afterall what Islam is, and sticking to its ancient forms of doing things. FG: No point in bombarding me with with lines from the Quran which I have read few times before. My conclusion has always been the same: A book written by a human, an eloquent one, but a human.No more no less. It clearly and unambigously reflects the thoughts, aspirations, fears and hopes of the people who lived in the Arabian peninsula at the time. Even the things promised to the faithfull in paradise clearly illustrate what was most appealing to those people(particularly men): Water, Women (plenty of them) and wine. When you are a young man who lives in a sexually repressed society(like Arab societies still are)in country where it sometimes never rains for fifty years, the idea of going to place with "Rivers are aflow" and with an endless supply of white-eyed submissive women is APPEALING big time. Hey you may even be prepared to kill for. FG: It is fascinating to see the way religious people try to legitimise their believes by clinging to every shred of scientific trivia they can lay their hands. It is a clear indication of the lingering doubts in their minds about the veracity of the faith's claims. Have a nice day.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 03:33 am Galol You are a slave, to your desires, you follow them like a god and that is what keeping you blind from seeing the truth. If you have spent a fraction of your thirty years in looking for answers, you would have definetely came home to Islam, but sopending your time fulfilling your wants and aimlessly looking everywhere does not get you anywhere. Smell the flowers, look at the sky and look at yourself. A bite of food that you eat goes thru a factory that could cost 80 million dollars if it was made by man. But thank God you eat and are unaware what is happening inside you. A process that boggles the mind is keeping you alive for a purpose. Look at a rain drop, inside it you can take a journey of the infinitissimally small world of nanosecond lifespan particles all obeying laws that you are reluctant to conform, for a purpose. Up in the universe, there is a book to see, 128 billion clusters of gallaxies that are swirling around forces not known to anyone. Each of these gallaxies contains billions of stars that dwarf our sun, This visible universe is one in seven that our feeble telscopes could focus on. Look up high, your vision echoes back on you to show you how week you are, I mean Slave with no authority or power or glory for that matter. You were born crying, naked and helpless. Love was planted in the heart of your Hooyo, for a purpose, find that purpose in the Quran. Wasting time, thirty years is bad, wasting your mind in nonesense is worse, use it for Allah's sake, and contemplate, there is enjoyment in figuring out where you are heading to before you get there, at least, you get ready, but being agnostic and aimless is like being a cat crossing the New Jersey turnpike in rush hour and expecting nothing will happen to it, what you ignore to know could harm you badly. Seek your maker, The time is now, and the message has reached you loud and clear, do not miss this opportunity. There is no second chance for deliberate refusals.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 04:22 am GALOOL.(not so fast wise man). Is that all you have got to say?. What happened to the guy who was inviting people to score some points my brother?. I am not throughly done yet with you by the way. "FG: It is fascinating to see the way religious people try to legitimise their believes by clinging to every shred of scientific trivia they can lay their hands." You are ignoring the fact that early muslims needed nothing more than the Quran itself. The Quran is never approached as a scientific book. It is guidance and the book of all wisdoms. When ALLAH wanted us to beleive in it, he gave us the option to exmaine it throughly and see how marvellous is the word of ALLAH is. "4.82 Do they not consider the Qurán (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. " We beleive in the Quran among other things, for the wits and the wisdom it provides, the challenge it imposes on all humans, and above all, the feeling one gets from being the servant of the creator. Simply there is no match for it. You sound you were dissappointed in other religions and thought may be atheism provides a shield for you from the glaring eyes of islam. There is no escape from it. You tasted how bad it bites when you try to challenge it. And you read it FEW TIMES RIGHT ACE?. looooool. I am sorry you get this agitated, I was thinking you could handle yourself smartly. You weren't bad though. Not too bad. "Really! I better be careful then. One thing though, the Somalis usually don't kill for Allah, they kill for their clan." Not all of them. Otherwise you are included in the bloodhanded thiefs who as you said kill for the clan. Tell me you have never supported your pointman in the tribe bro?. "I can bet you anything that almost everyone who uses this forums (with the possible exception of Common) were at one time or the other supporters of their Clan's Militia gang." Have you heard the somali saying "Nin walba siduu yahay buu ku moodaa"?. roughly tranlated "Everbody thinks of others as he/she is". If you were the supporter of your clan and carried the gun for them to kill other somalis or sent money from here to support the clan, You can't say everybody else did it. By the way EVERY GAAL MENTIONS THE SOMALI CLAN KILLING LIKE IT IS GONNA DAMAGE ISLAM. You don't surprise me because you are what?. The tenth individual who mumbles about somali proplems WHEN HE/SHE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ISLAM. Try other avenues my friend MAY BE YOU WILL SCORE SOME POINTS OKEY?. I hope you come back to show us more of your weakness and hypocrisy. "Last time Somalis fought for Allah was during the Mad Mullah time, and even then his base support came from his own clan and" Congrats on the first part. I know you took so much pain to say it. The second part sucks but it is for MAD. Doesn't matter, he can take the lies because he feeds on them. LooooooL. Well, I wasn't expecting this much fun this morning. "No point in bombarding me with with lines from the Quran which I have read few times before. My conclusion has always been the same:" Wow!. I am not surprised at all at your conclusions. The reason is this: "17.46 And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qurán, and deafness into their ears: when you do mention your Lord and Him alone in the Qurán, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth)." So, you fled from the Quran according to the Quran. What an unlucky individual. "A book written by a human, an eloquent one, but a human.No more no less." "17.88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qurán, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." Mad had been there with us before. Ask him what was the end result of his arguments about the Quran being the product of a human. The same lame excuses you give and give had always been the norms of all fakers. I know where you can help and sum up more interesting diatribe against the Quran. Visit your cousins in disbeleive and their websites to see what they say about it. "Even the things promised to the faithfull in paradise clearly illustrate what was most appealing to those people(particularly men): Water, Women (plenty of them) and wine." These people were human beings just like us. Don't we like the opposite sex all?. Don't we have aspirations?. Don't we..... don't we. You are making a moron out of yourself everytime you try TO score a point. You are buying your robes to be hanged with. "When you are a young man who lives in a sexually repressed society(like Arab societies still are)" Again this is for MAD because I know the history of ARABS and how they indulged in sexual acts without ristrictions. Does this verse ring a bell?: "17.32 Nor come near to adultery: for it is an indecent (deed) and an evil way. " Why in the world were they told to refrain from adultery if they were sexually restrained people as you denote?. Bla.... Blaaaaa .. is not an argument. Bring facts or keep making yoursef the man you are. SMART, WITTY, INTELLIGENT, what else bro?. "in country where it sometimes never rains for fifty years, the idea of going to place with "Rivers are aflow" They can't complain. If it doesn't rain, still they enjoy the best of everything in the world today. I was told that people can buy from the markets, the product of every country around the world. Allah accepted the PRAYER OF ABRAHAM FOR THEM: "2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: (Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!" 127. And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For you are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." 128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to your (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to your (Will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for you are the Oft-Relenting, Most Merciful. 2:129. "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse your Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For you are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." 130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. Brother GALOOL, I hope you give yourself a chance of reflection. Today is anything and tommorrow is different.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 04:34 am Common. Thanks for the e-mail. I appreciate if you stick around always. Once a day or once every other day. I don't know what hapened to ASAD. I haven't seen his input for two days I am guessing?. Wassalaamu caleykum. Galool. Bro, I hope you consider my discusion with you friendly though harsh it may seem. You are doing your part and I am my part.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 04:56 am Galool you bypassed my comments prefering to concentrate on FG's comments. Is your inconsistancy a inditement of your lack of commitment to the thread you post?, are you concerned with only throwing wild accusations and waiting for the "chops bits off crew" to react?. Dear brother this is not properly conduct for a grown man, your amusement has alas has a bittersweet taste, for all your certainity, your mockery, you swim in a canel of the unknown, you clutch to your ignorance like a blanket and attempt to throw it over where you lack in clarity and indeed you stoke the flames! Muslims belive in this Deen on faith not science, for example we beleive in Prohphet Moses (pbuh) who by all accounts is not a historical figure.We were simply responding to your claim that it is arbitarily harder to believe in the Quran than science, your "dollap" thesis. Tell me in the reasonable mind of which individual is it normal to question the scientific validty of something, and then view the response as a attempt to validate the respondants own redundant beliefs. If you knew not only the answer to the questions you seek, but also the mind frame which casts us in stone, again what basis for discussion is there? You know what the most stricking thing is, the absolute inorginality of your thoughts, it is sad to see, the same arguements non-belivers had against the Quran 1400 years ago are still being used today, by the "rational" crew. so you too are in essence sticking to ancient thoughts.The Arabia dessert thesis is quite cute, but even the most racist of the Orentalist Mongomery would not, out of respect for his own intelliegnce be so carefree with his bleak critisims, of what is if not the word of God a remarkable feat.Your so lazy in your anyalsis!The only relatively new thoughts you bring are the triple heritage theory, which ain't that new..and ain't that accurate.Islam is not a soci-polical system,and did not enter the shores of Africa as such why do you allow your fingers to type such inaccurate thoughts, why does your mind approve them?. Do you belive perhaps that no one will counter your claims due to your nonchalant retohric?, which ebbs and flows across the page like a bored philospher held hostage by 2 year olds bombarding him with purile thoughts? Ya Allah may you be guided! In the river basins of your mind you gave built a dam which is bolstered by arrogrance, and envy. Of course doubts exist in our minds! There is a hadith that says if we were fully aware of Allah (swt) and the hereafter, we would have no sexual appetite nor would we eat. How can we truly know, we can but contemplate and wonder on the creation and study the Quran!The Book wherein there is no Doubt!. We shall leave the human manifestation of such certaintuy to the moderrn day social critics, such as yourself ohh..and good day to you too
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 05:08 am Formerguest A salaam aleikum Sahib no problem for the email..i look forward to your messages i plan to stick around, Ya Allah this people are so persistant in there hatred. oh and seeing as everyone is speaking Arabi. i will try too. hada hada inta,..inta hada sucraan <smile> i have a long way to go huh? peace
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 08:50 am "Galool You sound like an apostate. Don't give your name out here or Asad will likely show up at your place and kill you." well, if an apostate (deserter) is going to be killed (i met and know two of them in person) it is not me who will do the killing. ;-) i have never kill people; i think you told us that you killed many many people, right, mad mac? ;-). "He thinks killing apostates is OK." i'm sure if there is a war )while you are in the american army) and you desert your post (and become a deserter who committed treason), the law in the united states army says you will be killed, right, mad mac? ;-)
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 08:58 am "I don't know what hapened to ASAD. I haven't seen his input for two days I am guessing?" i am traveling and do not have access to my laptop as often as i can. i'll be busy for couple of weeks. you'll, insha-Allah, see me on here whenever i get the chance.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 09:44 am FG I am glad you are having fun. Was it not Common who once said that Fun is for fools! never mind. I never intended to score points with anyone. it is too easy. I merely pointed out how easy it is to wind up those truly, deeply madly caught up in the minutae of their faith. And judging by the stream of abuse that emanates from someone as pious as your excellency, I think I amply succeeded in my attempt.(although I am slightly disappointed with Common who seems almost reasonable after that intial rush of blood in his first posting) By the way, It sounds like you have never been to the Arab world. I strongly reccommend you visit them, and learn Arabic so that you can read Islamic literature in its original text and not in a slightly doctored translations of it as seems to be the case with you. (sudhixat means Flattened, not Spread Out as whatever that means; Cadhaab is translated as Punishment when in fact the literal meaning is Torture as in Tacdhiib being tortured. But of course God as Torturer is not very PC, so doctor the translation) You will realize that the Quran is indeed very,very human. Hey there is even an outright insult when Allah(of course the Prophet PBUH) basically calls a man a fat, gossiping bastard!(Hammaazzin , Mashaain binnamiimin, muctadin athiimin, cuttullin bacda daalika zaniim) Ohhh!!! Doesn't sound too divine to me! It did not escape my attention you eventually gave up any attempts of explaining a whole range of issues(Biraaq, Two day, Six Day, Thousands of Days, what is in Paradise, concepts of Fear and slavery, the world is round said in Quran etc the list goes on). I also noticed that you attempted other members of your gang to come up with some new theories, hence, this Wanaag fella who sounds like a two-bit first Juz Quranic school teacher. You pleaded ignorance as to why the civil war is brought up whenever Islam is being discussed. The issue clearly (and reassuringly as far as I am concerned)demonstrates that Somalis are Secular people first and foremost, not religious zealots as you like to present them. Religion comes a very distant second in their Pyramid of covictions. Wanaagdon: 128 Billion galaxies eh? and God made them all? Well if that is the case how come only "Seven Skies" is ever mentioned in the Quran then? Common: Have you seen how FG is under pressure? I am seriously worried for him, I mean the dude is actually having fun! Can you imagine! Look after yourselves.
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| | Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 10:52 pm Galool You are a free thinker!!! In some circles this would be considered an insult. Your compatriots must consider you a dangerous man indeed. Someone who left the faith and can cite details of its flaws. You are dealing, however, with people who see no evil and hear no evil. Nothing you can say will even remotely be entertained by them on this subject. Be advised I have a much milder philosophy and even that is outright rejected. According to Asad anyone who's not a Muslim is simply stupid.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 05:09 am "You are a free thinker!!! In some circles this would be considered an insult....Be advised I have a much milder philosophy and even that is outright rejected." mad mac, maybe your foolishness made you blind to point where you do not see what you and galood are saying. both of you do not see that you are ones claiming to know things and are the smart ones here. you both believe and claim that the muslims are foolish to believe what they have (ISLAM). however, when the table is turned around on you, you cry foul. ;-) "According to Asad anyone who's not a Muslim is simply stupid." that is because people like you see no evil and hear no evil. if you made yourself death and blind to the truth, do not you think you are stupid. oh! i forget, you do not see your stupidity. ;-) there is a verse in the Qur'an that tell us: "And when it is said to them: believe as people have believed, they say: shall we believe as the fools have believed? Surely, it is they who are the fools, and yet they know not. And when they meet those who have believed they say: we believe. And when they are alone with their devils, they say: surely, we are with you; we were but mocking. Allah mocks back at them, and lets them wander bewildered in their insolence. These are they, who have purchased error for guidance, but their commerce profited them not, nor have they ever become guided. Their likeness is as the likeness of him who kindled a fir, then when it lit up what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness where they see not----deaf, dumb, blind, wherefore they will not return to light.........................Surely, Allah is not ashamed to use a similitude, be it a gnat or of a aught above it. Then as to those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. And as to those who disbelieve, they say: what did Allah intend by this similitude? Many He sends astray thereby and many He guides thereby, and He sends not astray thereby except the transgressors...............2:13------" ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 05:13 am You are a free thinker!!! In some circles this would be considered an insult....Be advised I have a much milder philosophy and even that is outright rejected." mad mac, maybe your foolishness made you blind to point where you do not see what you and galood are saying. both of you do not see that you are ones claiming to know things and are the smart ones here. you both believe and claim that the muslims are foolish to believe what they have (ISLAM). however, when the table is turned around on you, you cry foul. ;-) "According to Asad anyone who's not a Muslim is simply stupid." that is because people like you see no evil and hear no evil. if you made yourself deaf and blind to the truth, do not you think you are stupid. oh! i forget, you do not see your stupidity, right? how could you? ;-) there is a verse in the Qur'an that tell us: "And when it is said to them: believe as people have believed, they say: shall we believe as the fools have believed? Surely, it is they who are the fools, and yet they know not. And when they meet those who have believed they say: we believe. And when they are alone with their devils, they say: surely, we are with you; we were but mocking. Allah mocks back at them, and lets them wander bewildered in their insolence. These are they, who have purchased error for guidance, but their commerce profited them not, nor have they ever become guided. Their likeness is as the likeness of him who kindled a fir, then when it lit up what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness where they see not----deaf, dumb, blind, wherefore they will not return to light.........................Surely, Allah is not ashamed to use a similitude, be it a gnat or of a aught above it. Then as to those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. And as to those who disbelieve, they say: what did Allah intend by this similitude? Many He sends astray thereby and many He guides thereby, and He sends not astray thereby except the transgressors...............2:13------" ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 05:23 am Incorrect yet again!!! You have an amazing eye for detail but only when it suits you. You will remember I told you time and again I do not claim Islam is wrong, I claim that I don't accept it as being correct. BIG difference. I do not believe that Muslims are foolish to believe what they believe. The only time they are foolish is when they say others are foolish to believe what they believe. You consider tolerance seperate from contempt. But you are clearly contemptuous of non-Muslims. Why would you expect non-Muslims then to be anything but contemptuous of you? If you were a non-Muslim would you want to live in a country where Muslims make the laws of the land? Now you know why the Israelis will never succumb to living under Arab governance. Even if you tolerated them, at the same time you would be contemptuous of them. Now you know why the Copts can't stand their Muslim brethren in Egypt. they are tolerated but not respected. Hay how bout that Taliban huh? What are the forecasts, one million Afghanis about to die from famine. Way to go!!!! Good job there. I also note that you love to talk about corruption in Western regimes always attributed to the flaws of western religion, but the flaws of Islamic countries are due to the fact that there are no real Islamic countries. This is an amazingly convenient way to avoid criticism. Talk about this utopia which would only exist if everyone followed Islam. When bad things happen in countries with an Islamic orientation we then say it's because the people don't follow Islam properly. Hence we can always poke the west in the eye (while seeking refuge there I might add) and avoid criticism of Islam.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 06:16 am "You have an amazing eye for detail but only when it suits you." lol "You will remember I told you time and again I do not claim Islam is wrong," again, lying will not help you. many many times you said the Qur'an is INCORRECT on here, where i disagreed and challenged you to bring evidence.;-) "I claim that I don't accept it as being correct. difference." well, if the ibliis (the devil) was foolish to reject (or did not accept) Allah's order, so are you. there is no difference. like you, if i do not accept what is in the Qur'an, i'll be foolish. "I do not believe that Muslims are foolish to believe what they believe. The only time they are foolish is when they say others are foolish to believe what they believe." the Qu'ran says that those who do not believe islam are foolish. the Qur'anic saying are not foolish. ;-) "You consider tolerance seperate from contempt. But you are clearly contemptuous of non-Muslims." do you think telling the truth is intolerance and contemptuous? ;-) "Why would you expect non-Muslims then to be anything but contemptuous of you? " i never felt bad when you say anything about the muslims or me. i do not care. i am just returning the favor to you and if you get mad, that is your problem. ;-) "If you were a non-Muslim would you want to live in a country where Muslims make the laws of the land?" the non-muslims reject the goodness of Allah; he non-muslims reject what is good for them. you say you reject what is in the Qur'an; the existence of hell and heaven. since you reject islam, it is your right to reject living in an islamic law. "Now you know why the Israelis will never succumb to living under Arab governance. Even if you tolerated them, at the same time you would be contemptuous of them." israeli terrorists are the ones coming to and invading innocent people's homes after they kicked them out and kill them, right? ;-) "Now you know why the Copts can't stand their Muslim brethren in Egypt. they are tolerated but not respected." are the copts being killed like the palestinian muslims being killed by the israeli terrorists? "Hay how bout that Taliban huh? What are the forecasts, one million Afghanis about to die from famine. Way to go!!!! Good job there." how about the so-called red indian people, who died already in this country---of planned deceases and the savagery of the christians? did the christians do a good job to wipe out innocent people from their homes or what? now what is left of these peoplw are in concentration camps where they live like animals. what a good job! ;-) "I also note that you love to talk about corruption in Western regimes always attributed to the flaws of western religion, but the flaws of Islamic countries are due to the fact that there are no real Islamic countries.W hen bad things happen in countries with an Islamic orientation we then say it's because the people don't follow Islam properly." well, if the law in islam is followed, there is going to be peace. muslims will not run away from corrupted leaders who order killing of other muslims. the history has proven that when the muslims followed islam, there was happiness.;-) "Hence we can always poke the west in the eye (while seeking refuge there I might add) and avoid criticism of Islam." i critice muslims and my own people, but i know that islam (when it was practiced by the early muslims) muslims reached the highest pinnacle of success and achievements. many jews ran away from christian savagery to the muslim countries and found safe heaven as refugees. hilter was a christian, but he knew that these jewish people are wicked. they double crossed him and his people many many times; they corrupted the land with their filthy. if hitler would have finished them all, the palestinian people would not be in the position they are in, right, mad mac? ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 06:41 am Mad mac you are being wrong all over the page again. Firstly Christianity which is the western religion i imagine you speak of, has done some bad things. However we can generally say that the Erosion of Chrisatin values, howver hypocritcal they were insitlled, has been bad for the west. Secondly. stop blaming the Taliban for the famine in their country, your government has waged a economic war on them cause of Bin laden, and their pseudo -Islamic nature one of your problems is the gap between what you present and whay you purport. For example "the Israelis, will never succumb to Arab rule" and you claim you don't have a dog in the fight?.Your discrepancies are the things we see, and you blame us for this? Out of jews and muslims, tell me who can't eat of the same plate as a non jew?, where does the contempt lie?. Eygpt jails its Islamists in the hundreds, how can you take that country as a example of Islam?. Mubrark is your ideal muslim?. Secondly historically Islamic countries were nothing but pleasant to the jews,our Caliph even cleaned mount Zion for them, when it had litter on it.So stop distorting the facts. I also imagine that you want me to be less outspoken about the west becasue i have seeken refuge here. .Did the belgiums in Somalia roast that boy on a spit fire in accordance with somali custom?. Was the west invited to Africa?.. ever? what did they bring?.. what have i brought but conversation, yet you wish to codemn me?,and speak of colonisation neo colonilisation and the like as "consipracy theories".. i tire of speaking to a man with no basis in reason, no respect for truth.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:07 am Of course I have respect for the truth. But you are turning eveything into black and white. West is bad, Islam is good. Non-Muslims are stupid. Muslims are smart. How can that possibly be a foundation for dialogue? Now you're only a kid, so I kind of understand it. You ain't been around long enough to get jaded and understand there are no good guys or bad guys - at least not very often. Rare does the world get to see conflicts between Nazis and commies, peace a democracy. Usually the issues are more complex than that. Also, you have a habit (both of you) of looking back into ancient history and using it as a blueprint for today. Bad habit. Stop looking at people who have arrived at different conclusions from you and assuming they're stupid. Recommend you read The Wealth and Poverty of Nations to get a background on what has shifted global economic resources over the last 1,000 years. Everything is not a conspiracy. For the most part, global market forces can not be controlled by anyone. You guys need to get a grip and learn how countries can succeed in the world the way it is, now the way you want it to be. You know I'm a smart guy (contrary to your assertions) but I know that there are limits to what can be changed. Asad You say that if Islam is followed there will be peace. Of course you mean, if Islam is followed by everyone. IF everyone decides they want to lead a life under Islamic law. The Copts aren't being killed because they're not rioting. But if they protested their status (totally under-represented in Egyptian government, often the targets of violence by Islamic militants) by rioting they'd be killed in large numbers. I'm not defending Christianity. Never have, never will. I have explained to you some of their concepts which you take for support. I only support Christianity in as much as I support all religions. As I told you before, it doesn't matter whether or not the Israelis are right or wrong. That just isn't sinking in to you. Justice is irrelevant. Mao Tse Tung once said All power comes from the barrel of a gun. He wasn't completely right there. That assertion was accurate for China, but for Israel that only holds true if you engage it with violence. Hitler was not a Christian. You really need to do your homework on this guy before you start using him in your examples. He didn't believe in the God of Abraham, he believed in the nordic Gods. At least publicly. Privately he probably didn't believe in Gods at all. Telling the truth is contemptuous when you are telling others they are stupid. At a minimum it's rude. Example: Your mom goes and gets her hair done. She says "Asad, how do you like it?" It looks like crap but you say "Great mom!" Why, because you want to be polite, that's why. The fact that I believe the Qur'an is incorrect does not mean I think Islam is wrong. Again, you are not following my logic train here. For me personally it is not the unadulterated word of God. HOWEVER, I readily concede I could be wrong. Understand the difference. That means I believe pesonally that it's not the unadulterated word of God, but I also realise I could be mistaken. Hence what I embrace personally I do not expect others to embrace nor do I think they are stupid if they embrace something else - although I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I could be explaining this to someone who simply ignores what he does not want to hear here.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:47 am "You say that if Islam is followed there will be peace" yes, and it happened before when the muslims followed islam. "Of course you mean, if Islam is followed by everyone" yes, if the all muslims followed islam, the the early muslims, there would not be refugees coming from somalia and other so-called muslim countries. in fact, other non-muslims (the the jews who were prosucuted the the christians came) will come to the muslim countries. "IF everyone decides they want to lead a life under Islamic law." everyone is not going to lead a life under islamic law. there will always be non-muslims and hypcrite (muslims) who do not want to anything with islam and who will create problems to themselves and to the muslims. ;-) "The Copts aren't being killed because they're not rioting." no one is robbing their homes and oppressing like the palestinian people by the israeli terrorists. "But if they protested their status (totally under-represented in Egyptian government, often the targets of violence by Islamic militants) by rioting they'd be killed in large numbers." well, in egypt, they are not ruling in an islamic law, are they? in fact, those who want to rule in an islamic law in egypt are being under-represented and prosucuted, killed and imprisoned worst than any other group, including the copts. ;-) "I'm not defending Christianity. Never have, never will." that is because you can not. ;-) "As I told you before, it doesn't matter whether or not the Israelis are right or wrong. That just isn't sinking in to you." they are the worst terrorists in the world. they are wicked. as i said, if hitler would have finished them all, the palestinian people would not be in the position they are in now, right, mad mac? ;-) "Hitler was not a Christian." he called himself a christian, didn't he? ;-) "You really need to do your homework on this guy before you start using him in your examples." correct me if i'm wrong. if hilter said he is a christian, i'll believe him. i know hitler was not a hypocrite. he has guts, he did not resort to excuses like his victims and hilter never hidden his christianity. "He didn't believe in the God of Abraham, he believed in the nordic Gods." he thought he did. do you think that those who call themselves as christians believe in the God of ibraham? they do not. ibrahim believed in a God who had no son. the christians believe in a god who has a son. ;-) "At least publicly. Privately he probably didn't believe in Gods at all." i do not think hitler was a hypocrite. he had the guts to say what he believed in public. some jewish accuse of him being a gay. ;-) "Telling the truth is contemptuous when you are telling others they are stupid. At a minimum it's rude." the truth i'm talking about is in the Qur'an and it is not rude to tell the truth that is is in the Qura'n. ;-) ": Your mom goes and gets her hair done. She says "Asad, how do you like it?" It looks like crap but you say "Great mom!" Why, because you want to be polite, that's why." well, we are not talking about my mother. as the Qur'an says: "Surely, Allah is not ashamed to use a similitude, be it a gnat or of a aught above it. Then as to those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. And as to those who disbelieve, they say: what did Allah intend by this similitude? Many He sends astray thereby and many He guides thereby, and He sends not astray thereby except t hetransgressors"------"And when it is said to them: believe as people have believed, they say: shall we believe as the fools have believed? Surely, it is they who are the fools, and yet they know not. And when they meet those who have believed they say: we believe. And when they are alone with their devils, they say: surely, we are with you; we were but mocking. Allah mocks back at them, and lets them wander bewildered in their insolence. These are they, who have purchased error for guidance, but their commerce profited them not, nor have they ever become guided. Their likeness is as the likeness of him who kindled a fir, then when it lit up what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness where they see not----deaf, dumb, blind, wherefore they will not return to light ;-) "The fact that I believe the Qur'an is incorrect does not mean I think Islam is wrong" well, what you say about Qur'an; you say about islam "Again, you are not following my logic train here." looks like you are the one who is not following my logic. if beleive that there is something wrong with the Qur'an, then you are saying there is something wrong with islam. the Qura'n is not saparete from islam, right? ;-) "For me personally it is not the unadulterated word of God. HOWEVER, I readily concede I could be wrong. Understand the difference. That means I believe pesonally that it's not the unadulterated word of God, but I also realise I could be mistaken. Hence what I embrace personally I do not expect others to embrace nor do I think they are stupid if they embrace something else - although I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I could be explaining this to someone who simply ignores what he does not want to hear here." mad mac, i say that i believe you are totally wrong. you are being foolish and stupid. i think you (like all the foolish people who reject the truth when they see it, including the ibliis) are confused and are in error, like it or not, admit or not. ;-). aren't you the one who said a man like hitler might not face accountiblity and may come back to the world to do other things---because you are in doubt of the existance of the day of judgements? what a clever man you are. ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:35 am It seems very important that i explain what i am not to Mad mac and Galool. 1. I am not anti -western, in fact i admire many western attributes. You will find that a lot of muslims who dennounce the west as "evil" actually secretly like it. Towards Envy as a social theory a good book by sum danish philosoherWest does a lot of bad things 2. I am not wet behind the ears, yeah i am younger, again sometimes you can find in the rivers what you can't find in the ocean, i ain't saying i am right, but being young does not make me automatically wrong. 3. I do not see things in black and white, see the world in only good guys and bad guys etc or any other eupomisms you have for dismissing what i say 3. the wealth of nations. Adam smith, ricardo, bauer, Yamir, all those classical economic theorists and neo classical economic theorist,chuck out the same rubbish, comapative advantage, open markets, free trade, why doesn't your government listen to them? Like your Fat women thesis, Western governemnets may think something doesn't work(the fat women is disgusting so we won't date her), but they won't tell you(the fat women is motherly, plump, wholesome and in extreme cases fat women looks hot), in fact they will tell you it does work,(fat women is disgusting) so that the fat women hits you with her handbag. ancinet history? near history, a matter of perspective, we as a human race been on this planet if we compressed it into 1 day for about 15 secs I wasn't taking about the Israelis being right or wrong, so why don't you tell yourself that it is not about being right or wrong?. You say "arabs are contemptues and make no mentions of jews."arabs will slaughter the jews" Israelis are not?and "Israeli will never succumb to the arabs",succumb? i don't think your stupid enough to not know what you are saying, (asad might <smile> your dog appears to be as large and vicious as a rocwieller > I don't think you are stupid. i repeat. i don't think you are stupid. I have send this like a thousand times now <smile>. I think your conclsion are not based on any facts. For example which government in the world, increased economic output industyrailly by free trade, tell me one, and i will shup up.Walaahi (means by Allah)i will, for the most part of the "invisble" hand of the market has not been that invisble and has been gicving it a huge push, that is what has shifted global market forces, don't deny it, if you deny, prove it. I stand by that statment and will go in to length if you so require (you not a big fan of length). Your right its not a conspiracy, most of this information is availbe publical, once they realise it, simple anaylsis of world bank .IMF documents would reveal the deal, but people don't read anymore they watch T.V..i would be willing to entertain consiracy theorys here, i ahve taken advertsing and marketing classes too, these people are not people who like to be messed with The students of Mau , made their teachers walk on broken glass, during the liberation, you worried about walking on broken classes, don't worry i will tell the guys with the big bearded to spare you, as my old sparing partner i remind you of what margret mead said "never underestimate the power of a few individuals to change the world, indeed its all that ever has",i now only the limits Allah has set me, i recognise no ilegitimate ones, ..wait wait now beofre you start flying of the handle and thinkng i am gonna break your kuffar lawsa, i would have, but by the Quran i am bound by your "laws" too. But only if they do not conflict with the laws of Allah(swt)..and you guys have tendancy to do that <smile>. one love
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:58 pm Mad-Mac Thanks for the compliment. I never "left" Islam, I never believed in it since my early teens. Islam is supposed to be joined through conviction(Iqnaac)not through birth or nationality as some of the less knowledgable argued in these pages. In fact, when Islamic scholars are challenged about Prophet(PBUH) Mohammed's failure to ban Slavery, they always assert that the Prophet thought the (mainly black)slaves will join Islam out of self-interest(to escape slavery) rather than true conviction if he were to prohibit slave trade! Such was the emphasis placed upon conviction in early Islam. Do my comapatriots consider me dangerous? well depends on the clan! If someone from another clan so much as touches a filament of my hair, my fellow clan members(guys I have never met, and don't particularly care to meet, but who still believe we are related!)will have his whatisits before he can shout God is Great! No, really. You will be amazed by how indifferent ordinary Somalis are to religion. Their true passion, as I said earlier, is their clan system. Have you seen how FG never denied that he supported his clan's militias? In fact he seems to have kept really quiet since I raised the issue.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 04:28 pm "I never "left" Islam, I never believed in it since my early teens. Islam is supposed to be joined through conviction(Iqnaac)not through birth or nationality as some of the less knowledgable argued in these pages " you claim to be knowledgeable of islam and you are saying you were born as non-muslim! that is laughable. ;-) "In fact, when Islamic scholars are challenged about Prophet(PBUH) Mohammed's failure to ban Slavery" muhammad did not ban slavery nor any other prophet of Allah ever tried to ban slavery, right? ;-) "they always assert that the Prophet thought the (mainly black)slaves" this is laughable. blacks were not the only slaves that people could slave. there were arab slaves, white (european) slaves too, right? ;-) "slaves will join Islam out of self-interest(to escape slavery) rather than true conviction" like bilaal, who joined islam in order to scape from slavery, right? ;-) let me ask you this, galool this: were you in the heart of those who accepted islam; did you know what was in their true conviction of islam; alternatively, did you interview them and found out the reason their reason of becoming of muslims was not true conviciton? ;-). incidentally, when bilaal was getting tortured and the tortures (his pagan slave owners) were telling him to forsake islam or die in agony, all he could say was Ahad, Ahad----------the One, the One, Allah. "if he were to prohibit slave trade!" there was no slave trade during the prophet's time. get your facts, dude. ;-) "Such was the emphasis placed upon conviction in early Islam." well, that is the usual baloney. where did you learn your propaganda, galool? whomever you learned this from, ask them to give you references and evidences, okay? ;-) "Do my comapatriots consider me dangerous?" dangerous to what---to islam or to yourself? ;-) "You will be amazed by how indifferent ordinary Somalis are to religion. Their true passion, as I said earlier, is their clan system" including galool, right? ;-)
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:49 pm Galool You are on a joy ride, and it is not fun what you are saying. All what you have said about Islam and the Quran are repetitions of what agnostics of old have said about the Quran. You shurely are in doubt, but you can't refute as you have no evidence to do so. The fact that you are in doubt shows how shallow you look at topics, . You are bent on insulting your maker, denying his existence, his prophet, book and the evidence around you. When you die, your joy ride comes to an end. You slip into another existence. you should really worry, you have no skin thick enough for what is instore for you. The Quran has mentioned the Big Bang ( Miyesan arkin kuwa gaaloobay iney samada iyo dhulku isku jireen oon kala saarnay) this was followed by the expansion of the universe ,( Waaannu abburnay cirka iyo dhulka waannu ballaarineynaa) This expansion will come to an end and the universe will begin to implode and shrink The Quraan has furher explained this concept so vividly (maalinka aan isku laabi doonno cirarka sida warqadaha, wax walba sidaan ku bilowney baan ku soo celindoonnaa, ballan aannu is saarnay, waa mid aan sameyn doonno) When the universe shrinks time will reverse direction, it will be negative time, and gravity will reverse direction which will cause ( maalinka ay dhulka iska soo saari doonto waxa ku jira) ( waxaad arkeysaa buuraha oo u socda sida daruuraha, abburka Allah oo hagaajiyey wax walba), When time goes negative, events that happened will be replayed again (maalinka uu qofku arkidoono wexey gacmihiisa faleen, uu gaalku oron doono wayeey, haddaan ahaan lahaa carro) Ask your self, What is so difficult to understand that the one who created you can re-create you again, did have trouble doing it the first time? (miyaannu ku daalnay abuurkoodi hore si ay uga shakiyaan abuur labaad?) Qalbiga ama basiirada wax lagu arko waa sida muraayadda, haddi murayadda laga dhowro wasakhda, wexey ku tustaa wax walba sidey yihiin, haddii wasakhda laga badiyo wey mirirtaa, waxeyna u aragtaa wax walba si qalad ah, madaama qalbigaaga uu dhintay, Quraanku wuxuu na leeyahay (ma tihid mid maqashiin kara kuwa qubuurta ku jira, Mid diga oo qura ayaad tahay). Wanaagdoon
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 11:04 pm Galool. "I am glad you are having fun." Actually, I was amused by your ignorance and how you helplessly try to appear someone who knows something yet admit in the same piece of writing: (No point in bombarding me with with lines from the Quran which I have read few times before.) This is what people in your gang do. Try to appear informative in the Quran. When quizzed about it, wiggle out of the trap by giving the excuse of ignorance which they were in denial in the first place. " I merely pointed out how easy it is to wind up those truly, deeply madly caught up in the minutae of their faith." Yes. Always it is the mad guys, the ignorant guys, the less educated guys etc etc... that beleive in their god. What does the civilized world do?. "They (think to) decieve Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not" "In their hearts is a desease (of doubt and hypocricy) And ALLAH has increased in their desease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies." " And when it is said to them: "Make no mischief on the earth," they say: " We are only peace makers." The verses of the Quran continue to expose people like you untill they say: " And when it is said to them: "Believe as the people have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not." 2:9-13. There you have your folks and their exposure in the Quran. Complain if you want as you do. "And judging by the stream of abuse that emanates from someone as pious as your excellency, I think I amply succeeded in my attempt." First and the most important: I don't claim piety. Thanks for thinking me to be one. I neither claim nor refute. It is not for me to praise myslef. It is shunned in islam to bragg about things you are not like you and other disbleivers do. It is their character not mine. Second: your success largely depends on how much you falsely accuse the Quran with baseless comments that hold no water. Try in vain though, if you can acheive anything. " I strongly reccommend you visit them, and learn Arabic so that you can read Islamic literature in its original text and not in a slightly doctored translations of it as seems to be the case with you." I understand the Quran better in arabic than I do in english. The english translation or the somali translation of the Quran give the close meaning of the Quran. Any language other than arabic gives a close meaning but not an actual meaning. The translation I gave you is from YUSUF ALI and he tranlsates exactly what the verse is supposed is mean. Sadhxi as in noun means= Surface. It is used in verb form(Sudhixat)in the verse which when translated doesn't mean surface but BUSIDHAT in another translation from DHABARI. Also, there is another verse which has the same meaning "Wal ardhi wamaa dhaxaahaa" In chapter "AL-SHAMSI". THE MEANING IS ALSO the same: ballaariyey in somali ama la fidiyey denoting the space it has and the vastness of its body. Nothing else. It doesn't mean the earth is square as you want. Sorry. that is not what all people including the critics of the Quran said about it. I don't know where you get your info but it sure would help if you give us where. I know mostly of the websites that fabricate lies like this one. I haven't seen one yet that shares this opinion with you. may be the somaliatheists.org or com. May be dot net looks more civilized. And here is three TRANSLATIONS OF THE VERSE: 088.020 YUSUFALI: And at the Earth, how it is spread out? PICKTHAL: And the earth, how it is spread? SHAKIR: And the earth, how it is made a vast expanse? See MISTER KNOW-ALL BRAINIAC?. I guess those three guys are wrong and you are right. Tell them to go to ARAB countires as well. Do you see FLAT in there?. You are desparately trying to score a point but truly you are scoring against yourself. "You will realize that the Quran is indeed very,very human." Tell me about it Galool. The word "very" doesn't help you out here. Whether you use it once or twice. "Hey there is even an outright insult when Allah(of course the Prophet PBUH) basically calls a man a fat, gossiping bastard!(Hammaazzin , Mashaain binnamiimin, muctadin athiimin, cuttullin bacda daalika zaniim) Ohhh!!! Doesn't sound too divine to me!" Galool, the Quran calls people what they are. For example: You are a disbliever and an apostate one. Does that mean the Quran is not devine by simply telling who you are?. This is how childish disbelievers think. So far, from what I have seen from the many apostates or disbelievers, they are childich in their thoughts and incoherent in their words when it relates to the Quran excpet the well meaning few who are not biased and blinded by their disbeleive. "It did not escape my attention you eventually gave up any attempts of explaining a whole range of issues(Biraaq, Two day, Six Day, Thousands of Days, what is in Paradise, concepts of Fear and slavery, the world is round said in Quran etc the list goes on)." We believe as things are told in the Quran or in the Sunnah. We believe the existence of ALLAH remember which you deny?. So it comes in naturally that we believe everything else his prophet tells us. And the slavery to allah is being in service to him, showing gratitude, worshipping him, and admitting that you are his creation and in need of his help in all matters. That is what slavery means. For your INFO, Blacks who accpet islam have the right understanding of being slave to god. Had they the wrong undrstanding of it LIKE YOU DO HERE, They wouldn't have accepted islam. I guess people have different approach to things. You approach the QURAN with disdain and dispicability while other people approach it as a religious book and want to find out what it teaches. That is the difference between you and all others. "Common: Have you seen how FG is under pressure? I am seriously worried for him, I mean the dude is actually having fun! Can you imagine!" Thanks for being worried about me. However, I know it is not sincere when you say that. You want to appear hip or smart. My advice, don't ridicule yourself. People shy away from admitting ignorance in a loud voice and manners lest they understand their fallacies later. I am not surprised at your dips. I have seen it before and will see as I live long.
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| | Monday, October 30, 2000 - 11:40 pm OK, I am not qualified to comment on everything Galool said and I won't try. However, I have been hanging with Somalis to make two observations: He's right about the Somali passion and their stance on religion. I lived in Somalia for a year, and not once did I ever see a Somali pray. I'm sure there were some praying the the mosques (as non-Musilms, we were prohibited from entering a mosque and I only did so once at the invitation of the senior clan elder at Jasira. It was a cool place too, the stairs were cut out of the stone cliff facing to walk up to the mosque on the island. But if that little cut out canoe had tipped over, I would have drown for sure. I was waited down with all sorts of stuff and it was high tide). On the other hand, when I was in Saudi Arabia, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a praying Muslim. They were everywhere at prayer time, in the streets, praying on the sides of the highways. They took that prayer time thinig seriously. And at Ramadan, in Somalia everyone was munching away wherever. But in Saudi Arabia WE weren't even allowed to eat outside - violation of general order number one. Something about offending local sensibilities. I also think Galool might have a point on the slave thing. And Asad, you are incorrect, there was an active slave trade amongst the Arabs even during these times and before. Slaving was going on even as far back as the Egyptian times. You are, however, correct in asserting that blacks were not the sole victims of slavery. And as often as not slaves were taken during warfare, although this often also included the taking of slaves from captured cities and the like. You will remember that the Jews defending Massada all commit suicide rather than fall into Roman hands to be slaves. Common You are correct - youth does not mean all your points are incorrect. But I believe you are incorrect in asserting that the IMF and World Bank are engaged in a conspiracy to "keep the brothers down." I also believe you fail to appreciate just how anarchic the global ecnonomy (like gloabal politics only more so) is. I do not have to worry about big, bearded men sparring me. I will never be captured. I'll die first. Anyway, I am quite proficient in the military arts and I would not be easy to kill or capture. But still, you could be quite useful on the team. Individuals can have an impact on the world. If we want to define that as change, fine. But there are clearly limits. Also, being a hard core student of history, I have come to the conclusion that evolutionary change, while less dramatic, is also more effective. Revolutionary change usually ends in disaster. There are exceptions, but more often than not revolutions involve blood baths, economic dislocation and social anarchy that often takes decades to heal. Somalia doesn't need a revolution, it needs evolution. It needs to grow a government slowly. It needs to develop it's fragile economy without tearing it apart first. Somalia has had enough revolution for a while. I'm glad to hear you are not anti-west. The West has its good, bad and ugly. Just like everywhere else. I personally believe that the American form of government, for all of its flaws, is as good or better than any other. No one has been able to adequately explain to me what an Islamic government is. How it's leaders are chosen. What their authorities are and are not. etc. So I can't judge it. No one can point to a modern example either. So whether one of these governments would suit Somalis is impossible for me to analyze. I personally think Somalia needs a decentralized governing structure, with the bulk of the authority for education, policing and taxing left to the States. National defense, foreign policy and economic regulation left to the Federal authorities. I also think the Army should be small and mobile (with a policing responsibility when requested from the regional governors to assist with Mooryan problems - likely to persist in Somalia for years)and the government infrastructure should be small with low overhead. Lastly, I think the penalties for graft and corruption should be severe. Hence the judiciary should be a seperate branch - judges should be appointed for life and elected by either the people or some other designated body to minimize possible coercion. The current legal system practiced in parts of Mogadischu has something to be said for it. The thing I don't like about our legal system is you have teams divided on defense and offense. And both want to win regardless of the truth. I would prefer a system in which the goal is to determine the truth rather than achieve victory or defeat. OK, enough of that diatribe. Explain to me in concrete terms what economic policies you would advocate for the new Somali regime? Who has authority to tax? Do they borrow money? If so from whom? The economy is growing. How do they encourage that growth vice hinder it? What do you think needs to be done? Remember, you can't change the world economy. But you might be able to change Somalias, and then the horns. If you could influence things, what would you want to do?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:21 am MAD. Islam in enforced in saudi arabia. Don't think everybody over there likes to pray on time. The government enforces it and closes down all the bussinesses at prayer times. Somalia, islam is not enforcable. You have to do everything according to your piety and willingness i.e. no governing body that enforces islam. And the jasiira place, last time I knew, it was very small community. Not more than 150 homes. Mainly fishing families and mostly not somali origin most of them. In many parts of the country though, HARGEYSA, BOSASO, MOGADISHO, you notice the crowds in the mosques to be very large. And most people practice more of islam than they did ten years ago. It is getting there in slow pace but it will eventually. There is muslim and hypocrite in islamic communities. Muslims do things based on their piety, Hypocrites do things based on their fear from other humans, relatives, and any authority that might do something to them if they don't act according to islam. Since there is no government to enforce islamic laws, Individuals can't do it themselves. That is the difference.
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:42 am Formerguest I already knew that which you highlighted, although I would argue that generally speaking Saudis tend more toward the religious side of the fence, this based on casual observation. But my question is, which system do you prefer? Do you think Islam should be enforced like in Saudi Arabia, with businesses forced to close and so forth. Or do you think when Somalia has a government this should be optional and people should be allowed but not forced to observe Islamic practices???? If you were king for a day, how would you approach this subject?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 01:21 am Formerguest Way to go, Jazakallahu for speaking the truth. There is one misprint in your last posting that could make a big difference, I am sure that it was un intentional. The Quran is HUMAN(E) the (E) was missing in your typing. By the way, Golol ma Somali baa mise waa nin in siduu a habaabsanyahay raba inuu dad u habaabiyo? Qof ninkan yaqaan ma jiraa? iyo danta uu leeyahay, wuxuu u egyahay nin barnaamij leh. Keep the good work. Wanaagdoon
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 01:40 am MAD MAC Which Jewish tribe do you come from?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 03:14 am Ben Ahhhhh, I dunno. I didn't know I came from a Jewish tribe. I thought I came from a Scottish clan. You know something I don't know? which Jewish tribe do you come from?
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 04:06 am "I also think Galool might have a point on the slave thing. And Asad, you are incorrect, there was an active slave trade amongst the Arabs even during these times and before. Slaving was going on even as far back as the Egyptian times." " that is a lie. during the prophet's time, there was no slave trade going on. bring your evidence if you and him are not lying. ;-) we are talking about slave trade, where the british brought slaves to arabia during prophet's time from other parts of the world. ;-). almost all the slaves the pagan arabs had during the prophet's time were arabs and few other nationalities. You are, however, correct in asserting that blacks were not the sole victims of slavery." tell galool, mad mac, that there were blondes and blue eyes slaves in arabia. ;-) "And as often as not slaves were taken during warfare, although this often also included the taking of slaves from captured cities and the like." as i said there were blondes and blue eyes slaves own by the arabs and they were captured in warfare and some of the whites slaves were sold to arabs by other whites without warfare going on. ;-) "You will remember that the Jews defending Massada all commit suicide rather than fall into Roman hands to be slaves." jews have been slaves for centuries, mad mac. they were the original slaves. no other ethic can match their history in slavery (in bandage). ;-). The jews also did take part of the slave trade from Africa to america, did you know that, mad mac? ;-) the jewish people were the financiers (the brokers) of that slave trade. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 07:07 am Mad I will inshallah post some somali economic ideas, and talk about specific methods of develoment and also explain Islamic governace inshallah to you later on tonite. All this will be limited by my knowledge. Right now, i have to shoot down your accusations again. I do habour dagger and cloak theories about the world bank and IMF , i am not a "rent a anachist" or anything of the sought..again i am explaining what i am not.. why do you keep defussing the central topic. I will again attempt to explain. If you ahve a problme with what i say, mentin the specific problem and why it is a problem, do not make insidous insinuattory (is that a word?..if it is i am sure thats not how you spell it) comments The world Bank and the IMF both consist of people from the whole world over.The E.U and the U.S veto the leaders of each others canditaes to become leader, America invariably always wins. No one else has a hope in hell, becasue the U.S and E.U have vetos, which no one else has?. i would call taht holding the brothers down, but hey i ain't gonna even say it.. i will move on. The World bank and the IMF both do not have political mandates.But they manage to circumvent this slight problem<smile> if you check their "good governance" definions..they do not lend to anyone who doesn't have "sound" economic policies, interesting in history it has usually been the socaist governemnets that do not have "sound" economic policies. Before you fly of the handle and say capitalist economic policies are more sound than socialist ones, you need to look at cuba, which has the lowest literacy rates in the third world..and one of the best health systems. Then compare that with Eastern european states, which although having a highly educated popualtion , market liberalism has created poverty in 1-10..when it was 1-25 ten years ago at the begining of structaural adjustment in eastern europe, they don't keep only the brothers down.Why do you think they are making such a fuss about "corruption" nowadays it another angle into politics.lol.. they are so simplistic, they are preparing endless background papers and working reports stressing the link between corruption and poverty, which is what they are about-(the world bank anyway poverty allevation). Of course there is a link, howver the link is no where as big as between debt and poverty, or between spiralling commodity prices and poverty. The choices they make on what to emphasize are ..wait for it..political decisions, while claiming to not be political they have a neo liberal agenda. for years the research department has been doctoring the world development reports to put emphasis on industrial growth..saying wealth will trickle down, rather than the quality of growth mattering also, this is why two senior development economists have quit in the last 6 months. the offical reason "an arguemnent over the order of which the chapters in the world development report should be in".give me a break. who leaves well paid job over that? it was even in the papers everyone knows why they left.Its not a conspircay but publically availble..but no one reads anymore (a conspiracy i tell ya!). Their new book "grwoth is good for the poor" by aart kay and the aptly named david dollar is a joke, if you concerned read it, you might actaully have more punchy arguments against me next time instead of name calling Now i could care less about socialism, but the Bretton woods institutes are while not completely under the entire thumb of western states,sure as the blue shy under heavy influence and the reds of yesterday are the greens of today, both sides are peddling this Islamic thing, its quite sickening actually the hypocrite sand the Kuffars in bed with each other..oh sure they distrust each other for snakes are not naturally comfortable bedfellows, but they have the same aims. If our leaders cared about us, they wouldn't be given a platform.While i am one the subject you should have killed khotemeni we should have killed Rushdie..these things happen i am well aqquainted with casino capitalism and how anarchic it is, they crashed the mexican economy in less then 24 hours. Also crashed the NICS which you cite as an example of development. When money itself is a commodity and you buying and selling people's currency and "capital flight"..trillions of dollars moving across the globe can occur at the end of a well manicured finger and the beinning of a laptop things can only, i repeat only go wrong. You want to follow orthodox economic ideology and encourage foreign direct investment in Somalia?.. noone is playing that game with subsahran Africa, we can explode into civil war any second and your nice disposible , cheap workforce becomes extinct. Its funny, and all the international students here are sponsered by there governemnt and they ask me if i am too, no my goverment like to shoot at me is my response.
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 08:03 am "also explain Islamic governace inshallah to you later on tonite. All this will be limited by my knowledge." i'm looking forward to this. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:20 am asad. that was mean lol
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 11:37 am Okay here it comes. The Islamic governance would be by a leader, a caphi, who did not want to lead. The Caphi would interpret the spirt behind and the law of Shariah togther,the Caphi would be accountable to the ummah. The cahphi would well versed and learned inshallah in Islamic theology, law and philosohy, inshallah, and would seek to establish the sunnah of Prohphet Mohamed (pbuh). and adopt the methods of the caphis who followed the prohphet (pbuh)The caphi would be the sheild of the whole ummah and be so beautiful. man with regards to economic development., Firstly the Cahpi would inivte both formley and by example all muslims to somalia,we would draw nmuslims from the corners of the earth and we would work in harmony. Not possible?.. yeah look what the zionists did? they would have the right to protection and it would be a base for the ummah. We would gain enourmously in terms of educative resources, the west stole the ummah we would take them back, after the west miseduacted and eduacted them, we shall call it quits. we should grow domestiacally appropraite crops and eat them, perhps somalis would stop eating spaghetti and bannana's togther (even though it taste so good)..it is riddiclously expensive and unsustainble in the face of a moe than likely hostile west. this being one is a personal thing..perhaps the southerners would stop wearing their trousers so high, like 19th century Italians too (oh boy i am in trouble <smile> we would invest in the ummah, them being the most improtant nautral resouce we have..the other things.. they would work themselves out.In congo when they reached independance they had 16 post secondary school graudates. we the ummah have vast resources, they just need to be pooled and realised
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| | Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 11:50 am "we should grow domestiacally appropraite crops and eat them, perhps somalis would stop eating spaghetti and bannana's togther (even though it taste so good)..it is riddiclously expensive and unsustainble in the face of a moe than likely hostile west. this being one is a personal thing..perhaps the southerners would stop wearing their trousers so high, like 19th century Italians too (oh boy i am in trouble <smile>" lol. this is very funny. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 12:29 am Common I think you need to refine your plan. And what the hell is an Ummah????? How are they selected to ensure the Caliph behaves himself? How 'bout the judiciary, how 'bout the administration. How are administrators hired. How are taxes raised. What are the right and left limits of the military? The questions here are endless. This sounds like a simple Oligarchy to me.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 04:13 am "I think you need to refine your plan." his plan? ;-) "And what the hell is an Ummah?????" ummah = people. prophet muhammad's ummah is included everyone---muslims, and the non-muslims. all the other prophets (like jesus whose ummah was only the lost children of israel) were send just to their ummmah. however, prophet muhammad was sent to the whole ummah. of course, the christians (the gentails) think they are jesus's ummmah. ;-) whoever denies he or she is in the ummah of muhammad is going to hell and whoever accepts muhammad as being the last prophet of the whole ummah and becomes a muslim will go to heaven. ;-) "How are they selected to ensure the Caliph behaves himself? How 'bout the judiciary, how 'bout the administration. How are administrators hired. How are taxes raised. What are the right and left limits of the military?" all the answers of these question can be found in the religious books. it is not like a khalifa, islamic judiciary and adminstration were never selected in the world, or taxes were never raised and there were no islamic miliatry rules! ;-). muslims ruled under khalifa and ran their governments in justice and successfully in all aspects, including justice, adminstration and military. read the history of islam, mad mac. the jews found safe heaven under khalifa system when they ran away from christian terrorism. if this were oligarchy system, the jews and other non-muslims would not have found it safe heaven. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 11:59 am FG So you think that I have got a disease and Allah has decided to make it worse? Well thanks! That is very nice of him! I am not going to argue with you about whether the Earth is flat or square, because you are not going to change your mind. Neither am I going to challenge your Arabic since I don't want to reduce you street cred among your little beardo outfit. What is important in your rambling is not so much what you said, but what you DID not say. Let me refresh your memory. You claimed that Quran says the Earth is round. I challenged you. No response. (you sure know your Quran!). You said that Allah did actually call someone a mere human a fat, gossiping so and so. In fact you threatened that the almighty may call me names. What a pleasure that would have been, but as you know for some unexplained reason, he decided to keep shtump for the last 15 centuries. You failed to address the issue of slavery. And the secularism of the Somali people. And the torture thing. And what exactly is in paradise apart from women, wine, water and "fowl meat". By the way I hope the "Fowl meat" mentioned is turkey, since I am allergic to chicken. And the wine sounds more like a soda since it says it never leads to inebriation no matter the quantity consumed, which defeats the whole point really. But hey, you did admit the contradiction of the 2 day/six day issue.(you resorted to that usual excuse of all true believers: this is what it says, and I have no comment on it) And you recited lots of verses(which really say nothing particularly telling) Asad Glad to hear from you. I am just little bit disappointed with your history. Slavery was at its peak during the Prophets time. In fact the prophet accepted as a "present" a teenage black slave girl whom he married and called Juweyriya(the little servant). This was the second such "present" the prophet accepted, the other being Coptic Maryam. (don't worry, I am not going to talk about this side of the Prophet's behaviour, I may be an Apostate as FG called me, but I do have my standards!) Slavery actually continued in the Arabian peninsula till 1958 when Oman banned it. It still continues in Mauritania and Southern Sudan where Black Africans are enslaved by Arabs. And the majority of those slaves were indeed Africans. I am not sure what your statement means when you say no prophet banned slavery. Are you suggesting it was right? You may also like to know that Bilal, after all he has done for the prophet and his friends in their dark days in exile in Medina, they all refused him to marry their daughters because he was a black slave. Another famous slave was the "wild one" who speared the Prophet's uncle in the Uhud battle. He later became a muslim and used his legendary fighting skills to kill Museylama("the Liar" who almost overthrew the Islamic revolution. It is said that the when the Prophet heard Musey was dead, he jumped for joy and asked to meet the Muslim who accomplished this hitherto impossible feat. But when he was told it was the "Wild one", the Prophet apparently sat down in a sulk and said "don't bring him to me, I never wish to see his face" So there you go. Read some history, because you are not as good a bluffer as FG and you obviously lack the humility of Common. Wanaag What a glorious misnomer! So you think I will go to hell. Explain the different torture procedures that I will be subjected to, since you obviously can't wait! I suppose one has to accept his fate. One thing though. Hell sounds a lot more fun than heaven. Also a lot of my friends will obviously be there so at least I won't feel lonely. Who knows, we may even bump into each other. And your paranoia is coming to the fore. What on earth(remember the flat one with either 128 Billion or just seven skies?)can my agenda be except to debate and have some fun at your expense? Surely you will not begrudge a little laughter to a doomed man? Common Have to rush. talk to you later.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 05:51 pm "Glad to hear from you." same here. "I am just little bit disappointed with your history." that is okay. i did not mean to disappoint you. but let's see your *his-story* too. ;-) "Slavery was at its peak during the Prophets time." well, that is not true. the fact is that, the prophet's time, freeing a slave was a virtue. ;-) "In fact the prophet accepted as a "present" a teenage black slave girl whom he married and called Juweyriya(the little servant). This was the second such "present" the prophet accepted, the other being Coptic Maryam. " many parts of the world (even in somalia) there were many influential men who accepted presents (marriageable girls) too and married them like the prophet did. now, are you saying that the prophet slaved his own wife, who had a son (ibrahim) for him? what a liar you are, galool. ;-). "don't worry) lol "I am not going to talk about this side of the Prophet's behaviour" the prophets' behavior was an exulted one, but however you or the enemy make up about the prophet is going to be a lie. no one can distroy the prophet's exulted behavior. ;-) "I may be an Apostate as FG called me, " are you? ;-) "but I do have my standards!)" is not lying one of your standards? ;-) "Slavery actually continued in the Arabian peninsula till 1958 when Oman banned it. And the majority of those slaves were indeed Africans. " i told you that the arabs had slaves which included slaves from europe---blondes and blue eyes. ;-) "I am not sure what your statement means when you say no prophet banned slavery. Are you suggesting it was right?" well, since no prophet ever did ban slavery and since prophet muhammad's teaching made it virtue to free a slave, i am suggesting that slavery can be exercised in wartime. galool, what do you call the prisoners of war, who do hard labor without any salary------while in captivity (bondage) these days? ;-) "You may also like to know that Bilal, after all he has done for the prophet and his friends in their dark days in exile in Medina, they all refused him to marry their daughters because he was a black slave." well, fyi, bilaal married an arab lady and he reached high statues in the muslims. he was one of the 10 best companions of the prophet. one time, he was the govenor of state. by the way, galool, your earlier statement, where you said slaves (including bilaal) became muslims because they only wanted to escape from slavery, was one of your lies, right? ;-) did you know that islam freed bilaal and many other slaves? ;-). however, were you in their heart, galool? did you check their heart and saw if they were not sincere in their acceptance of islam? ;-) "Another famous slave was the "wild one" who speared the Prophet's uncle in the Uhud battle." the wild one. lol "He later became a muslim and used his legendary fighting skills to kill Museylama("the Liar" who almost overthrew the Islamic revolution" what the arab pagans, roman empires and many other more powerful armies could not, musalylama kadaab did-----"almost overthrew the islmaic revolution" lol "It is said that the when the Prophet heard Musey was dead, he jumped for joy and asked to meet the Muslim who accomplished this hitherto impossible feat" impossible feat. lol "But when he was told it was the "Wild one", the Prophet apparently sat down in a sulk and said "don't bring him to me, I never wish to see his face" So there you go." galool, your lies are becoming too funny to comment, but let do the honors anyway and comment. ;-) you see, musaylama kadaab was killed during abu bakar era in the twelfth year of hijra, long before the prophet's death. the prophet's dieth was in the eleventh year of hijra. ;-). so, galool, lying about the history will not help you. ;-) "Read some history" i should return the favor and ask you to the same. ;-) "because you are not as good a bluffer as FG" we know who is the lair here. ;-) "and you obviously lack the humility of Common." like i said, i didn't mean to disappoint you, but as you know already, i'm not here to be an unassuming guy who caters to your feelings, especailly when you lie like a desparate guy. ;-) "Slavery actually continued in the Arabian peninsula till 1958 when Oman banned it." speaking of slavery in sudan, let's take a look at what others have to say------which is different than the christian missionaries version: http://msanews.mynet.net/~msanews/MSANEWS/199703/19970325.2.html http://msanews.mynet.net/~msanews/MSANEWS/199703/19970325.3.html Sudan, Propaganda and Distortion: Allegations of Slavery and Slavery-Related Practices An Open Letter to Baroness Cox and Christian Solidarity International by David Hoile An occasional paper published by The Sudan Foundation (Director: Sean Gabb) 212 Piccadilly London WC1V 9LD United Kingdom Telephone within the UK: 0171 917 1854 Telephone from abroad: **44 171 917 1854 E-mail: main@sufo.demon.co.uk ISBN: 1 86234 020 X (c) 1997: The Sudan Foundation, David Hoile All opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and not necessarily those of the Sudan Foundation. Executive Summary Baroness Cox Heavily Criticised for "Propagandistic and Unproven Claims" of Slavery in Sudan In a new Report, Sudan, Propaganda and Distortion: Allegations of Slavery and Slavery-related Practices, An Open Letter to Baroness Cox and Christian Solidarity International, published by the Sudan Foundation and released today in London, Baroness Cox and Christian Solidarity are heavily criticised for their unproven and propagandistic allegations of slavery and slavery-related practices in Sudan. The author of the Report, David Hoile, shows that Baroness Cox has produced no evidence for the serious claims she has made: "Reports on Sudan by Christian Solidarity International have lacked any sense of balance and objectivity and have been somewhat selective in their reading of recent Sudanese history. The reports for example, have made no mention of the thousands of adult black Sudanese and young boys who have been abducted or kidnapped by the SPLA and subjected to forced conscription and forced labour practices which by your own definition qualify as the practice of slavery." He shows also how these reports have served merely to distort still further an already difficult situation, and have added a further layer of misunderstanding. And he points out that, despite her concern about slavery, Baroness Cox has "openly associated" and continues to associate with: "People and organisations closely identified with what would clearly qualify by your definition, and that of several human rights organisations, as slavery and forced labour. These people and organisations include Sadiq al-Mahdi and John Garang and his faction of the Sudan People's Liberation Movement." Baroness Cox has openely associated with people such as Mubarak al-Fadil al-Mahdi, a Minister under Sadiq al-Mahdi, and identified by British human rights groups as the architect of the 1980s "militias" policy during the Sadiq al-Mahdi government, which resulted in thousands of kidnappings and abductions, which in turn resulted in numerous cases of false imprisonment and forced labour. On the main issue of the allegations of slavery within Sudan, Mr Hoile categorically states that: "The various key human rights organisations have quite simply not produced any credible evidence of state-sanctioned or condoned slavery or slavery-like practices. What these human rights groups have documented contradicts such claims. These human rights groups have shown repeated interventions by government authorities to free people detained by tribal militias. They have also documented that due process of law exists in Sudan, whereby Sudanese courts have repeatedly freed people held illegally." Mr Hoile reveals that while, in 1992, the American Government was officially insisting that there was "no evidence of organised or officially-sanctioned slavery" in Sudan, this line changed abruptly, and without fresh evidence coming to light, to suit the new priorities of US foreign policy. What had previously been described as kidnapping and slavery was seemingly reclassified as "slavery", in keeping with new American propaganda themes. Mr Hoile calls on Baroness Cox to do the following: 1 To urge the British Government to adopt a balanced and more constructive approach to the Sudanese political situation, particularly with regard to abuses of human rights by all parties to the Sudanese civil war, and to consider increasing development assistance to Sudan to alleviate the social conditions in which many of these abuses take place; 2 To consider a more balanced and less partisan approach to the Sudanese civil war, particularly with regard to reports published and distributed by Christian Solidarity International; 3 To bring pressure on John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to end the slavery and systematic abuse of human rights with which they have so long been associated; 4 To call Sadiq al-Mahdi publicly into account for the practices and human rights abuses practised and encouraged while he was Prime Minister in the 1980s; 5 To urge John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to follow the lead of so many of his southern colleagues and enter into the ongoing Sudanese peace process - a process which has resulted in the signing of political charters guaranteeing most if not all of the demands of the southern Sudanese political leaders, including a referendum on the status of southern Sudan. 7 To reconsider her continuing support for the John Garang and Sadiq al- Mahdi, given their commitment to a violent resolution of Sudan's political problems, especially given that there are clear moves towards a peaceful negotiated settlement from within Sudan itself. ====Main Text Begins===== Politics File Number 5 Sudan, Propaganda and Distortion: Allegations of Slavery and Slavery-Related Practices An Open Letter to Baroness Cox and Christian Solidarity International by David Hoile I write this open letter with considerable sadness and regret. You will remember that we worked together on some political issues relating to Mozambique several years ago. As you may also know I have long admired much of your political and educational work within the United Kingdom. I must state, however, that I have become increasingly concerned at the nature and direction of your recent work on Sudan, and feel that I must publicly address you on this issue. Sudan and its problems have been in the headlines for some time. We in the West have a responsibility to take a measured approach to African and Middle Eastern issues, particularly when the repercussions of distorted images can only but worsen already difficult situations. This is particularly the case with Sudan and I have to say that I have grave concerns at the way you and Christian Solidarity International, the organisation with which you are closely identified, have approached the issue of Sudan. Much of your work and that of Christian Solidarity International on Sudan has centred on allegations of slavery within that country. Quite frankly, for all the somewhat sensationalist claims and allegations you and CSI have made, the evidence to support such grave claims is simply not there. While the government of Sudan may well have been guilty of human rights abuses within the course of the Sudanese civil war, your reports do not in any way produce credible evidence of a slave trade, certainly as we in the West would understand it, within Sudan or of any governmental involvement in this alleged trade. I am sad to say that your reports have served merely to further distort an already difficult situation and have added a further layer of misunderstanding. Paradoxically you have openly associated, and continue to associate yourself, with people and organisations closely identified with what would clearly qualify by your definition, and that of several human rights organisations, as slavery and forced labour. These people and organisations include Sadiq al-Mahdi, the Umma party president and prime minister of Sudan from 1986-89, and John Garang and his faction of the Sudan Peoples Liberation Movement/Army (SPLM/A). Several of your visits to Sudan, for example, are within areas of the country controlled from time to time by SPLA gunmen As detailed further on in this letter, reports on Sudan by Christian Solidarity International have lacked any sense of balance and objectivity and have been somewhat selective in their reading of recent Sudanese history. The reports, for example, have made no mention of the thousands of adult black Sudanese and young boys who have been abducted or kidnapped by the SPLA and subjected to forced conscription and forced labour, practices which by your own definition qualify as the practice of slavery. It is very important, therefore, to examine the allegations of slavery within the Sudan in considerably more detail than the somewhat sensationalist and partisan way in which they have previously been presented. The Slavery Allegations Allegations of slavery have characterised much of the propaganda levelled at the present government of Sudan. The issue of slavery is a very emotive one within the Sudan. Much of the history of nineteenth-century Sudan is marked by a slave trade closely identified with the Turkish-Egyptian colonial authorities, slavery being therefore very much associated with Egyptian colonialism. Those who level accusations of slavery touch a raw nerve with the Sudanese. Those who have made such allegations, allegations that the Sudanese government condones and encourages institutionalised slavery, have, however, not provided the evidence necessary to justify such grave accusations. The slave trade as it existed in nineteenth-century Sudan involved the Turkish-Egyptian colonial authorities, their Arab servants and slavers and dominant black tribes in southern Sudan who supplied many of their captives as slaves to the slave traders. As Gray records, one of the most prominent southern slave dealers was Mopoi, a chief of the war-like Azande tribe, who provided slavers with thousands of his tribe's captives.[1] Grays also relates that "Europeans were amongst the foremost participants' in the African slave trade"[2] As the distinguished Sudanese academic, Mohamed Omer Beshir, stated: "The suggestion...that the `Arabs' or `the Northerners' were the only dealers in this repugnant trade and the ones responsible for the violence which accompanied it, is not true."[3] An end to slavery in Sudan had been one of stated motives for the British intervention in the late nineteenth-century. The subsequent Anglo-Egyptian government ensured that slave trading as an organised concern was brought to an end: the colonial government remained very hostile to the institution of slavery in all its forms. It is significant to note that while slave trading was at an end, inter- tribal disputes and fighting still resulted in the kidnapping and taking of captives, captives then often used as forced labour. The Report on the Finances, Administration and Conditions of the Sudan in 1904 records a "certain amount of kidnapping" in eastern Sudan[4]. There were also cases of kidnapping in Kordofan, Darfur and the Blue Nile. Beshir records that: "Abduction for the purpose of forced labour, especially among the nomad tribes of South West and North West Kordofan, continued until 1912".[5] McLaughlin documents that between 1905-1913 two hundred and forty-two people were arrested and convicted of kidnapping and abduction.[6] As late as 1947, an official Sudan government publication warned that kidnappings were still happening, being carried out by nomadic tribes in the north.[7] It would be another forty years before accusations of slavery were to be heard within Sudan again. They emerged in the mid-and-late 1980s in the course of the civil war being fought in parts of central and southern Sudan between central government and the Sudan Peoples Liberation Movement/Army under John Garang. The present civil war in Sudan started in 1983, towards the end of the Nimeiry dictatorship, and continued under the Transitional Military Council which overthrew Nimeiry in 1985, and then under the several coalition governments headed by Sadiq al-Mahdi from 1986-89. There are undoubtedly several key human rights issues with which the present government is still associated by inheritance. In addition to the civil war in the south, the government, for example, inherited the political and military conflict within the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, a conflict very much the result of specific policies devised in the mid-to-late 1980s by the then government of Sadiq al-Mahdi and John Garang's SPLM/A. These policies included the arming of tribal militias by Sadiq al-Mahdi, militias directly associated with the subsequent allegations of slavery that have been levelled at the Sudan, and the arming of these militias was the direct result of the SPLA's desire to spread the civil war to a new part of Sudan. The issue of the tribal militia raised, armed and used by the Sadiq al-Mahdi regime and the allegations of slavery go hand-in-hand. In order to examine the situation today it is important to trace the relationship between the two. The Nuba Mountains and the conflict within it have attracted considerable international attention, presently focused upon the present government in Khartoum. The British human rights group African Rights states very clearly, however, that "The war in the Nuba Mountains began in July 1985". African Rights also describes the genesis of this conflict, and the deliberate arming and use of tribal militias There were two events: an isolated raid by an SPLA unit on a cattle camp for Baggara Arab nomads close to the north-south internal boundary, and the government decision to arm the Baggara as a militia to fight the SPLA and the civilian population thought to be sympathetic to it.[8] The SPLM/A killed sixty Baggara tribesmen and wounded 82 others during the raid mentioned above. These circumstances unleashed raids by the army and newly equipped militia on villages and their inhabitants, resulting in the death of large numbers of Nuba Mountain residents and their leaders, numerous arrests and detentions, stock theft and army reprisals within areas in which the SPLA were believed to have had a presence. British journalist Julie Flint has also documented the origin of the violence in the Nuba Mountains and the role of the Sadiq al-Mahdi government and SPLA within it: Until the 1980s, Baggara and Nuba lived in intimate enmity - sometimes raiding, sometimes intermarrying, but with mechanisms for regulating disputes. This collapsed after the SPLA made its first incursion into the Nuba Mountains in 1985, killing and wounding more than 100 Arabs. The government responded by arming the Baggara against the Nuba...Neither side behaved well. The Baggara militia ran amok. The SPLA raided villages for food and forcibly conscripted young men. Tens of thousands of Nuba fled their homes.[9] African Rights have also summed up the essence of the Nuba conflict, pointing a particular finger at the Sadiq al-Mahdi regime: This stage of the war, and in particular the militia strategy, was designed by elected politicians, mainly from the Umma party. These politicians, most of whom are now in opposition and who speak grandly of `democracy' and `human rights', are among those who bear most guilt for the crimes committed against the Nuba.[10] Human Rights Watch/Africa have also explored the origins of the slavery allegations: The practices described as slavery in Sudan have their current origin in the human rights abuses committed in the civil war by government troops and militia in the south and the Nuba Mountains. These abuses did not start with the current government which took power in June 1989. They routinely were committed by Arab militias armed by local government and the Umma Party under the democratically-elected government (1986-89) of Prime Minister and Umma Party president Sadiq al-Mahdi.[11] African Rights states that several people were intimately involved in designing the militia policy: Fadallah Burma, who served as a Minister of State and defence advisor under Sadiq al-Mahdi; Abdel Rasoul el Nur, the Governor of Kordofan from 1987-9 and a former private secretary to Sadiq al-Mahdi; and Hireka Izz el Din, the chairman of the Umma party parliamentary group from 1986-9.[12] That the Umma party and Sadiq al-Mahdi opened a Pandora's box of inter- tribal violence is clear. And it is out of this deliberate policy that the allegations of slavery started to emerge. A comprehensive report on the El Diein massacres in March 1987, where Rizeigat tribal militia were involved in the shooting or burning alive of hundreds of Dinka men, women and children, was written by two Muslim academics at the University of Khartoum and showed the intensity of this new conflict. This report, The Diein Massacre and Slavery in the Sudan, stated that: Government policy has produced distortions in the Rizeigat community such as banditry and slavery, which interacted with social conflicts in Diein to generate a massacre psychosis...Armed banditry, involving the killing of Dinka villagers, has become a regular activity for the government- sponsored militia. Also linked with the armed attacks are the kidnapping and subsequent enslavement of Dinka children and women. All this is practised with the full knowledge of the government.[13] Sadiq al-Mahdi resolutely defended the militias, claiming against all the evidence that the Rizeigat militia were not guilty of the massacre, and subsequently stating that militias "were only to defend democracy".[14] Amnesty International was also able to describe the nature and effects of Sadiq al-Mahdi's policies: Between 1985 and 1988 northern Bahr al-Ghazal was devastated by a series of raids by the murahaleen, a militia raised from the Rizeiqat and Misseriya nomadic tribes of Southern Darfur and Southern Kordofan. Initially self-armed, the murahaleen developed close links with the armed forces and the Umma party, historically the strongest party in western Sudan. The raids, which involved the killing of thousands of Dinka civilians, rape, the abduction of women and children, the looting of livestock and the destruction of homesteads, led to severe famine in northern Bahr al-Ghazal and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of civilians.[15] This then was the appalling situation within parts of southern and western Sudan and in the Nuba Mountains before the present government took power in 1989. The position at least of the present government on slavery is very clear. It states that Sudan is a signatory to several key international conventions outlawing slavery. These include the Slavery Convention of 25 September 1926, as amended by the New York protocol of 7 December 1953 and the Supplementary Convention on the abolition of slavery, the slave trade and institutions and practices similar to slavery was ratified by the Sudan in 1956 and 1957. In 1995, following claims of the existence of slavery in remote areas of Sudan, the Sudanese government established a five man commission to investigate any alleged instances of slavery within the Sudan. Additionally, the 1991 Criminal Law Act clearly defines abduction, forced labour, kidnapping, unlawful confinement and unlawful detention as criminal acts punishable by imprisonment. The 1992 government publication, Sudan Yearbook, in a section reviewing measures to end the conflict in southern Sudan, clearly stated the government's position with regard to slavery: The issue of the slave trade, whatever historical justifications it had, and regardless of the participation of many quarters therein, whether colonialism, the North or citizens from the South, has been, and will continue to be for ever, the most atrocious practice ever known in history What then are the practices which have been described by some groups as "slavery"? What appears to have happened is that as the civil war spread to other parts of Sudan in the late 1980s, both the government and SPLM/A armed tribal militias within areas which had traditionally seen considerable inter-tribal conflict, including the raiding, abductions and kidnapping mentioned in the above colonial instances. Raiding, which had been virtually dormant for decades was given a new lease of life as traditional rivals such as the Baggara and Dinkas were armed with modern, automatic weapons and encouraged to attack each other. Additionally, given the vastness of Sudan, and even without the dislocation of civil war, several large areas of the country proved difficult to administer - just as they had been during the colonial government - providing ideal circumstances for abduction and kidnappings. It would appear that even travel guides have more of a grasp of the reality of Sudan than many human rights groups and Western governments. The Lonely Planet guide to travel in Sudan warns that: "The far west, particularly Darfur, is plagued by bandits who apparently have little compunction about robbing and sometimes killing their victims. The government is attempting - so far with only limited success - to bring these people under a measure of control".[16] There is also a particular difficulty in defining exactly what constitutes "slavery", an issue discussed below in more detail. What has been increasingly presented as slavery by anti- Sudanese and anti-Islamic propagandists can in no way be compared to slavery as we understand it. Additional attempts to project the present government of Sudan as either explicitly or implicitly supporting or condoning these practices is fundamentally dishonest, despite the clear implication of the previous government in allowing widescale abuses of human rights and practices within these areas. Given the present hostility of the United States government to the Sudanese state, it is interesting to note the references to slavery contained in the Department of State's comprehensive human rights publication, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. The 1990 entry on Sudan touches on several of the issues mentioned above: "Slavery reportedly exists in those remote areas where government control is weak and where displaced persons fleeing the war zones come into contact with armed groups...The revival of slavery is often blamed on economic pressure and the civil war, especially the practice of arming tribal militias".[17] The 1992 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices quite clearly states that: "Sudanese law prohibits forced or compulsory labor and there was no evidence of organised or officially sanctioned slavery".[18]The official United States perspective would seem to echo the Sudanese government's description of what was going on within Sudan. It is important to further note that the years covered in the above reports were years during which there was a marked escalation in the civil war, and the disorder and chaos that would have been associated with such increased conflict, and therefore the potential conditions for raiding, abductions and kidnapping would have been heightened. Yet the American position was quite clearly that there was "no evidence of organised or officially sanctioned slavery". From 1993 onwards, there was a marked de-escalation of the conflict resulting from the SPLM/A's loss of rear-bases in Ethiopia and the fragmentation of the SPLM/A itself. It is ironic and somewhat contradictory, therefore, that as the conditions for raiding, abductions and kidnappings decreased, what can only be described as a concerted propaganda campaign highlighting allegations of slavery and slavery-like practices was focused on Sudan and the Sudanese government from 1995/6 onwards. The early official United States government position outlined above was, of course, to change as the propaganda war was stepped up against the Sudanese government, when allegations of slavery would presumably have been seen as valuable and suitable propaganda and as the United States government and its allies stepped up their political and propaganda campaign. From 1995 onwards the allegations of slavery resurfaced with groups such as Christian Solidarity International claiming that "the institution of slavery continues on a large scale in GOS (Government of Sudan) controlled areas of Sudan".[19] In 1995, however, African Rights published a report on the conflict within the Nuba mountains. Facing Genocide: The Nuba of Sudan, which ran to 344 pages and was a forthright examination of both government and SPLA excesses. The issue of slavery is briefly mentioned in a section on forcible abductions. The report recorded that "El Amin Omer Gardud had been alerted to two cases, which he was investigating".[20]In one case three children had been "snatched" by a tribal militia: two had escaped. In the other case two girls were allegedly abducted by government forces. In a further reference, the report recorded that a woman had been abducted and was then "married" to a soldier. This was referred to as "a form of slavery".[21] One presumes that the slavery issue was not as pressing an issue as the American government and its allies may have wished it to be. It is significant in this respect that the black former Congressman Mervyn Dymally, a former chairman of the House of Representatives sub- committee on Africa, observed at a conference in November 1996, that allegations of Sudanese slavery were new and had never been brought to his attention during his twelve years on the Africa sub-committee. Dymally speculated that one reason for it surfacing in 1996 was that "it is a very emotional issue for forty million (black) Americans".[22] It is also notable that in its comprehensive 1994 report on Sudan, Civilian Devastation: Abuses by All Parties in the War in Southern Sudan, Human Rights Watch/Africa does not once mention slavery. Interestingly, the report cites a United States State Department cable which noted that government authorities in Wau and Aweil had freed kidnapped women and children, women and children detained by tribal militias.[23] What becomes clear is that there would appear to have been a time in 1995 or 1996 when what had previously been described as "abductions" were suddenly reclassified as "slavery". Human Rights Watch/Africa's 1996 report, Behind the Red Line: Political Repression in Sudan, for example, contains an eight-page section entitled `Taking Children and Women Slaves as War Booty'. The section is somewhat contradictory to say the least. The report categorically denies the Sudanese government's reading of the captives issue, which was that "these practices are nothing more than hostage-taking, done by both sides"[24] : the section records that "The government claims that with regard to slavery, `the element of intention is decisive.' In the Sudan, it maintains, tribal fights normally result in captives and prisoners of war on both sides of the conflict, but there is no intention to take slaves".[25] The report also went on to deny the Sudanese government's perspective that these captives would then normally be exchanged or ransomed at periodic meetings between the tribes and communities in question. While denying these practices, and preferring to label them as slavery, the Human Rights Watch/Africa report then goes on to describe exactly such circumstances later on in the section. It is worthwhile quoting the relevant passage in the report in some detail: In late 1995, meetings reportedly were held between representatives of the Dinka and the Rizeigat (Arabized western tribes, originally nomads in Darfur), a subgroup of the Baggara. In exchange for access to the fresh pasture land and water controlled by the SPLA, the Rizeigat agreed to release Dinka "prisoners" captured during their raids. They reportedly brought with them to a meeting a list of 674 children already identified and whose release has been promised. They were given Ls. 250,000 (US $473) for the immediate transport and clothing of twenty children said to have been gathered in Nyala in Southern Darfur.[26] What is cited above is precisely the sort of inter-tribal `conference' described by the government of Sudan, the existence of which was denied by Human Rights Watch/Africa in its report. What is also significant is that the report goes on to mention that in Nyala the relatives of two young teenage Dinka women had gone to court to secure their release from captors. The report also records that government authorities in El Diein in southern Darfur had ordered the release of "dozens of Dinka children brought to El Diein and surrounding villages by raiders who had captured them from the area around Aweil in Bahr El Ghazal in early 1996". These children were then handed over to the Dinka community in El Diein. The report also cites the case of an orphaned Dinka boy who had been kidnapped in 1986 by militias loyal to Sadiq al-Mahdi. His uncle had located him and informed the Sudanese police and "The police issued a warrant for the release of the boy to the uncle".[27] The section also additionally documents that in 1995 government authorities in Aweil freed 500 captured women and children who had been taken prisoner during fighting between tribal militias. Human Rights Watch/Africa also recorded that the human rights committee of the Sudanese parliament was in southern Sudan in early 1996 "investigating reports of slavery". The report also confirms that on 22 March 1996, the government of Sudan "notified the U.N....that it was extending the mandate of an existing special committee to investigate alleged cases of slavery and related practices in the Sudan. This committee is composed of representatives of the ministry of justice and interior, internal and external security, and military intelligence".[28] The eight-page `slavery' section in Behind the Red Line: Political Repression in Sudan is made up of four heavily-footnoted pages dealing with the post-1989 period, and the remaining four pages relate to the years 1985-1989, during which Sudan was administered by the Transitional Military Council and governments headed by Sadiq al- Mahdi. Far from proving or substantiating the very grave charge of slavery, the four pages dealing with the present Sudanese government reveals that the age-old practice of abduction and kidnapping and then exchanging or ransoming prisoners taken during what are essentially tribal conflicts (albeit perhaps dressed up in pro- government and pro-SPLA clothes) is alive and well, having been rekindled and fuelled by the Sadiq al-Mahdi governments. Human Rights Watch/Africa also unambiguously documents that government authorities have repeatedly intervened to release prisoners from what is clearly unlawful captivity. Additionally, the report documented that civilians have been able to go to court in successful attempts to free people held illegally. The 1995 Human Rights Watch/Africa report Children of Sudan: Slaves, Street Children and Child Soldiers, contains a 23-page chapter entitled `Slavery or forced labor of minors kidnaped from their families during militia raids'. The evidence cited to support the claims of slavery were described as "summaries of the testimonies of some of the individual victims" and related over eleven pages. The evidence provided, in fact, rests upon three cases, those of three Dinka children called Alang, `Mabior' and `Akom'. (The last two are pseudonyms). Once again, far from proving any case against the present government of Sudan, these testimonies are an indictment in effect of the Sadiq al-Mahdi regime. Alang was six years old when she was captured during a raid in 1986 by militias loyal to Sadiq al- Mahdi. Her father was killed and her mother injured in the raid. `Mabior''s story is somewhat confused. The introduction to his testimony states that he was abducted at the age of eight by a soldier during a raid on his village near Bor in 1988. It is then mentioned that he was abducted during a raid in 1992. `Akom' was five years old when he was kidnapped during a raid by militiamen loyal to Sadiq al-Mahdi in 1988. In all three cases these southern Dinka children had been abducted by soldiers or militiamen loyal to, or serving, Sadiq al-Mahdi governments. In all three cases the abducted children were subsequently kept in conditions of domestic servitude and abuse. And in two cases the children were released as a direct result of legal or judicial action during the tenure of the present government: in the third case legal action was underway but was curtailed by the removal of the child to a place of safety, which was interestingly enough, Khartoum, where the child was said to be "living in freedom".[29] Amnesty International has also documented the use of courts to free illegally held children. Amnesty International has also reported that government authorities have intervened to free villagers being held as prisoners by tribal militia in 1993 and 1994.[30] Even the material presented by Christian Solidarity International in its evidence to the United States Congressional sub- committees on International Operations and Human Rights, and Africa, in March 1996, reflected that a considerable number of the people cited as victims of slavery had in fact abducted during in the late- 1980s by forces loyal to Sadiq al-Mahdi.[31] Quite frankly, if this is the best evidence that can be gathered to support allegations of slavery or the condoning of slavery by the present government in Khartoum, then there is not much of a case to answer. Human Rights Watch/Africa has undoubtedly been very keen to gather as much direct evidence of these allegations as possible. If they are not able to support the claims then that does not say much for the veracity of the allegations. Far from proving their case, the material presented by Human Rights Watch/Africa in fact contradicts the claims that the government of Sudan supports or condones slavery in Sudan. Despite lurid claims that the present government is implicated in the slaving of thousands of Southerners, the specific evidence produced by Human Rights Watch/Africa proves that military forces loyal to Sadiq al-Mahdi were directly involved in the kidnapping and abduction of southern Sudanese children. The specific evidence provided by Human Rights Watch/Africa in two reports also clearly demonstrates that the present government's local government and police authorities have directly intervened on several occasions, occasions documented, in passing, by human rights groups, to release women and children detained by tribal militias. Indeed, once again, even evidence by Christian Solidarity International includes testimony that slavery- related practices "takes place in secrecy".[32] And, lastly, Human Rights Watch/Africa has also provided ample evidence that in case after case when evidence has been produced of illegal abduction, kidnapping or detention, the government has acted to free those victims of an earlier government's excesses. There is not one single recorded instance of this happening during the Sadiq al-Mahdi governments. The recourse to law to free illegally detained people, as mentioned in the various Human Rights Watch/Africa reports cited above is very significant. In Children of Sudan: Slaves, Street Children and Child Soldiers, for example, Human Rights Watch/Africa spends some time discussing the definition of slavery. This is clearly a crucial area. In the above report, Human Rights Watch/Africa cites "one authority" who states that: "The term `slavery' is technical and limited in scope, inasmuch as it implies ownership as chattel by another person and `the destruction of the juridical personality.'"[33] It is clear through the repeated use of the judicial process to free those subjected to involuntary domestic servitude that far from having been destroyed, the juridical personality exists and has been seen to have been enforced on numerous occasions (and in most cases far away from any Western eye, presumably precluding, therefore, any public relations motive). The present government in Sudanese government came to power through a bloodless military coup d'etat in July 1989 which overthrew the Sadiq al-Mahdi administration. It is a matter of record that the present government moved quickly to address the status and activities of the various tribal militias brought into being over the years. Shortly after coming to power, the Bashir Administration attempted to centralise, control and structure the various disorganised and undisciplined tribal militias, legacies of the Sadiq al-Mahdi government. In November 1989 the new government passed the Popular Defence Forces Act which absorbed the militias into the Popular Defence Force with the stated aim of instilling professionalism and discipline into these militias. Not surprisingly there were, and continue to be, a number of difficulties and problems in this process, but it was a process which the government clearly entered into. The behaviour of the militias had itself been a source of conflict between the Sadiq al-Mahdi regime and the Sudanese army. Apart from seeking to curtail the excesses of the militia from a military point of view there was another, political, reason why the government moved to control the tribal militias. The simple fact is that the Baggara militia so closely identified with these allegations of widespread abductions and kidnapping was not only a vehicle of the Sadiq al-Mahdi governments but owed long-standing historical loyalty to his sect and party. As the human rights activist Alex de Waal has stated: "the Mahdist Ansar organisation remains the dominant political element in the Murahalin". As de Waal has also pointed out, the present government in Khartoum are very aware of this: "the perceived continuity of tradition accounts for some of the fear with which the Murahalin are regarded in Khartoum".[34] Other academics have also pointed out that the present Khartoum government were keen to bring the militias under control: "there is no reason to suggest that they were all under the full control of the Government, a fact which prompted the Government to promulgate, in 1989, the Popular Defence Act".[35] The Religious and Race Issues Several of the allegations of slavery and slavery-related practices have additionally attempted to project them as linked to some sort of Islamic project against Christians within Sudan. Christian Solidarity International reports, for example, have carried statements such as "Slavery is used by the Government to debilitate and exhaust the Christian Communities".[36] Attempts to intrinsically link Islam and Islamic societies to slavery are patently false and misinformed. Slavery had been practised since the beginning of time and has featured within both Christian and Islamic societies. Both Islam and Christianity accepted the de facto institution of slavery, indeed it was the backbone of the deeply Christian, white southern states of the United States until 1865. Slavery is not supported or encouraged in either the Quran or in the Sunna: there are references pertaining to the good treatment of slaves. There is a tradition ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad, that the wickedest of people are those who sell people.[37] The inter-tribal raiding rooted in Sudanese history, which clearly reached a peak in the mid-to-late 1980s, and which exists to this day, is divorced from political or religious control from the centre. As the respected academic authorities on tribal militias, Salih and Harir, state: Even though the national political arena is dominated by debate over the values and ideology of the state, Islam and Christianity have never entered the realm of local politics nor have they provided the main source of antagonism at the village level, simply because they are not issues of political concern to the majority of the rural population...the rural populace used the war to pursue objectives that are different from those of the political elite, for instance, to square old enmities with neighbouring ethnic groups or to rustle cattle, seize women and plunder crops...It is therefore not possible to associate the emergence of tribal militias indirectly with the upsurge of strong Islamic sentiments within certain political elites in the North.[38] There have also been attempts to portray the slavery allegations as being racial in nature. It is regrettable that at least some of these attempts have been by Christian groups. In his March 1996 article on allegations of slavery, for example, an article based on material provided by Christian groups, Sam Kiley quotes a Christian minister: "`The slavery is obviously racially based. Black people are considered slaves by this regime, whatever its claims to adhere to the Koran's teaching on the brotherhood of men' said a cleric behind the anti-slavery operation'".[39] As we have seen, the allegations of abduction, kidnapping and ransoming are closely identified with the activities of the Baggara tribal militias. As anyone who knows, or has studied, Sudan will know there is very little, if any, physical difference between the Baggara and those they have been accused of abducting and kidnapping. The key reference source, Sudan: A Country Study, produced by the American University on behalf of the American Defence Department, makes this very clear stating, for example, that: "northern populations fully arabized in language and culture, e.g., the Baggara, cannot be distinguished physically from some of the southern and western groups with whom they are in contact".[40] It is disturbing to note that Christian Solidarity International has repeatedly added the term "black" when referring to those abducted when there is every likelihood that both parties to these allegations would have been black Sudanese. This is unfortunate because it does present these allegations within at best a questionable and at worst a non-existent racial context. Definitions of Slavery There has also been considerable confusion in defining or coming to terms with exactly what constitutes slavery or slavery-like practices. Allegations and accusations of "slavery" have been made by several groups, and in the absence of any strict definition of the term, there have clearly been exaggerations and distortions particularly with regard to Sudan. As pointed out by Sean Gabb in his open letter to the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, specific conditions and a certain framework must be present for a slave state to exist: "An institution like slavery, if it is to exist in any formal sense, must leave obvious footprints in the laws of a country." Gabb went on to observe that the law codes of slave states: "contain hundreds of pages devoted to questions arising from the existence of slavery. Are there any classes of free person forbidden from owning slaves? How are slaves to be bought and sold? If one escapes, after how long, if at all, is he to be considered legally free? What, if any are a slave's legal rights? If his religion is different from that of his master, may he be forced to convert? Is he allowed to marry? What is the legal status of his children? These and many other questions must be answered somewhere in the laws of a slave state...Yet the laws of Sudan are absolutely silent on all these questions. Indeed, at every point touching on the existence of slavery, Sudanese law is clearly prohibitive".[41] There are, however, definitions of slavery which are quite obviously far looser than the generally accepted one. The long-time British human rights activist Lord Hylton, for example, chaired a conference in London on what has been described as slavery in Britain in May 1995. The conference was titled `1995 Slavery Still Alive'.[42] The London Times of 23 September 1996 also reported that accounts of the imprisonment, assault and starvation of foreign domestic workers within the United Kingdom had provoked "a new wave of political debate on slavery in Britain, 163 years after its abolition". The Times went on to state that "Campaigners claim that Britain has become a `slave haven' for wealthy foreign diplomats'". Anti-slavery campaigners had recorded more than 2,000 cases of serious abuse of domestic workers: "Campaign groups claim that allegations of slavery are justified because of the lack of help offered to servants by the Government allows employers total control of their workers' lives." The issue of domestic slavery within Britain was debated at both the Labour and Liberal Democrat party conferences in 1996. Some commentators appear to lack any definition at all. The British journalist, Bernard Levin, writing in the Times in an article entitled "A slave state of our time", alleged, without the slightest evidence, that slavery was alive and well in Sudan. He claimed that twelve thousand southern children were "currently enslaved in the North". He freely conceded his article was based on CSI material.[43] It is somewhat disconcerting given the grave issue of slavery raised in his article that Levin has openly admitted to exaggerations in his work stating "It is quite widely known that my middle name is Hyperbole, and I think I can say that I have lived up to it...I have got into the habit of multiplying...awfulnesses, just for fun".[44] It would perhaps place Mr Levin's predilection for exaggeration into perspective that in 1993, in a Times column entitled `Of inhuman bondage', he states that: "Slavery has reappeared in Britain", claiming that he had in his hands "unchallengeable evidence of the truth of it. A book by Bridget Anderson, entitled Britain's Secret Slaves and published by Anti-Slavery International, has provided the copious evidence, scrupulously documented. There are slaves in Britain...it is absolutely essential, in thinking about this dreadful business, to understand that...the slavery...is going on at this moment, all over the country, and the British government condones it". He believes that there are hundreds, if not thousands of slaves in Britain. What Levin is actually referring to is the mistreatment of domestic servants brought to London by foreign families resident in Britain.45 This illustrates quite clearly a tendency to use terms such as slavery in a particularly slapdash manner, as clearly, from Mr Levin's point of view, the governments of Sudan and Britain both condone slavery. If in the minds of Lord Hylton, Levin and others, what they describe as slavery can exist within the United Kingdom, perhaps the freest and most democratic country in the world, where access to the legal and judicial system is direct and clear-cut, four observations follow. Firstly, there is the distinct possibility that these practices are not slavery as generally understood. Secondly, if these practices were alive and well in Britain, then they could well occur within a country racked with civil war, a country parts of which historically have never really been fully administered. Thirdly, if Levin is lax in his definition of what constitutes slavery in Britain, then there is every possibility he is equally ill-defined in what he labels as slavery in Sudan. And fourthly, both Lord Hylton and Levin provide examples of how certain illegal and odious practices can exist within a country, whether it is Britain or Sudan, without the government in any way condoning them. What is also clear is that what Christian Solidarity International has presented as slavery is in fact the taking of captives during tribal raiding (whatever the modern political context), followed in some cases by equally illegal forced domestic servitude. It is highly unlikely, for example, that a former captive such as the 65-year old tribesman, cited in a CSI report and featured prominently in a London Times article, would ever have been taken for purposes of slavery or slavery-related practices: common sense would dictate that he was simply too old and infirm.[46] He was, however, clearly one of the many tribesmen illegally taken captive during inter-tribal raiding - yet he is presented as a "slave" by a sensationalist media. Many of the instances Christian Solidarity International have described are clearly the kidnapping and subsequent ransoming of those abducted. While undoubtedly done for sincere reasons, the decision of Christian Solidarity International to pay the ransom on kidnap victims is questionable. Christian Solidarity International is then party to a process whereby it pays ransom to people who claim to have in turn kidnapped children from their original abductors, with no means of ascertaining that this is indeed the case. In summary, Christian Solidarity International's involvement in ransoming kidnap victims (and in some cases double kidnap victims), while providing media sensationalism, does not in any way provide evidence of slavery. It does provide evidence of tribal raiding, captive-taking, kidnapping and ransoming within areas of Sudan in which government administration is clearly weak or absent (evidenced by the fact that you were able to visit them accompanied by SPLA gunmen). Perhaps the last word on definitions can be given to British journalist Simon Sebag Montefiore who has thoroughly researched the claims of slavery in Africa, clearly in considerably more depth and with more intellectual and practical vigour than Levin, for a British television documentary. Writing about the issue in the London Sunday Times magazine, he observed: The word `slavery' is often used loosely in an African context: we frequently read tales of schoolchildren in, say, Sudan or Liberia being kidnapped and sold in the midst of civil wars. But chattel slavery, the formal system that existed in the Middle Ages and in the American South before the civil war, supposedly survives now only in Mauritania.[47] Human Rights Watch/Africa's attempts to define slavery have included the following positioning. Slavery was defined in the 1926 Slavery Convention in Article 1 (1) as "the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised". Human Rights Watch/Africa added the following observation: "One power attaching to the right of ownership is the power to completely dispose of the (unpaid) labor of the slave". Human Rights Watch/Africa then cited this as justification for classifying the kidnapping of Dinka children and their subsequent use as forced unpaid domestic servants as slavery. Given that the evidence produced by Human Rights Watch/Africa dealt with individuals abducted during a previous government, and made to work as unpaid domestic servants until freed by legal intervention by the present government, the involvement or implication in slavery or related practices of the present government is unproven at best and unclear at worst. The SPLA and Slavery What is clear, however, is that by Human Rights Watch/Africa's own working definition, the Sudan People's Liberation Movement/Army led by John Garang is clearly and unambiguously identified with slavery and related practices. Garang has led the SPLA since 1983 and is therefore directly accountable for the kidnapping, abductions, forced labour, forced conscription and other slavery-related practices his organisation has been party to. The 1990 United States State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices records that the SPLA were responsible for the arming of tribal militias in the Nuba Mountains.[48] It further stated that "the SPLA/M often forced southern men to work as laborers or porters or forcibly conscripted them into SPLA ranks. In disputed territories this practice was implemented through raids". The role of the SPLA in creating the circumstances for slaving was touched on in the 1991 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices which recorded that: "It was not clear at year's end whether the intra-SPLA fighting, marked by Nuer-Dinka tribal rivalries, would also result in the taking of slaves".[49] The 1991 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices placed on record that the SPLA had "forcibly conscripted at least 10 000 male minors"[50] and reiterated that the SPLA/M continued to use southern men for forced labour and portering. Human Rights Watch/Africa and the Children's Rights Project published Sudan: The Lost Boys which described the removal of young boys from southern Sudan by the SPLA in what has been described as the "warehousing" of children for subsequent use in the war.[51] These children are unaccompanied and the SPLA have refused any attempts at family reunification. Once suitably isolated these children are then used for forced labour and then forcibly conscripted into the SPLA. In its 1994 report Civilian Devastation: Abuses by All Parties in the War in Southern Sudan, Human Rights Watch/Africa documented the SPLA's use of "forced unpaid farm labor on SPLA-organized farms". Human Rights Watch/Africa also reported that "The SPLA has conducted forcible recruitment...since at least the mid-1980s" and that "Forcing civilians to porter supplies for the SPLA is a chronic abuse."[52] Civilian Devastation: Abuses by All Parties in the War in Southern Sudan also described the phenomena of "military slavery". Douglas Johnson in `Military Slavery in Northeast Africa' states that: "Military slavery involved systematic acquisition of slaves who were trained and employed as soldiers".[53] Human Rights Watch/Africa goes on to observe that "the southern Sudan and the Nuba hills were seen by Anglo-Egyptian officials as the main reservoirs of recruitment of new slave soldiers".[54] The clear and unambiguous resemblance between SPLA forced recruitment within these very same areas and what has previously been termed "military slavery" is obvious. The comparison between John Garang's SPLA and the old Turkish-Egyptian regime which colonised, enslaved and terrorised parts of Sudan in the nineteenth-century is also clear. The Egyptian state was sustained by a caste of soldier-slaves known as the Mamelukes, a grouping similar to the Turkish Janissaries. This caste was based on the deliberate enslavement and isolation of children who were then militarily trained to serve the political masters of the day. The SPLA's purposeful abduction and isolation of southern Sudanese children can be seen as a corrupted and less sophisticated version of the Mameluke model, the result of which is a grouping of child soldiers within the SPLA known as the "Red Army". The SPLA's abduction and gathering of children, and their subsequent treatment, is dealt with over almost thirty pages in Civilian Devastation: Abuses by All Parties in the War in Southern Sudan.[55] In a separate study, Human Rights Watch/Africa concluded that: The primary purpose, however, of luring and keeping thousands of boys away from their families and in separate boys-only camps was, in the judgement of Human Rights Watch, a military purpose. This resulted in the training and recruitment of thousands of underage soldiers who were thrust into battle in southern Sudan and briefly in Ethiopia.[56] In addition to John Garang's close identification with slavery and practices described as slavery by key international human rights groups, the SPLA has also been closely identified with terrorism and additional widespread abuses of human rights with Sudan. The United States Department of State's 1990 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices reported that the SPLA "conducted indiscriminate mortar and rocket attacks on the city of Juba, killing more than 40 civilians and wounding many others. These attacks...seemed intended to terrorize the inhabitants". The human rights report also stated that there had been "extensive pillaging and shooting of civilians by SPLA/M forces along the Sudan-Ethiopian border".[57] In November 1991 the SPLA again shelled the southern city of Juba, killing 70 civilians. In August 1991, the SPLA fragmented and one of the factions, the Nasir Group, accused Garang of human rights violations including the torture and execution of opponents, arbitrary detentions and the forced conscription of children. The SPLA-Nasir group claimed that some of Garang's southern opponents had been incarcerated for up to six years.[58] In 1992, the SPLA continued the random shelling of Juba, killing over 200 southern civilians. Garang's group was also responsible for the murder of three international relief workers and a journalist.[59] The SPLA has also admitted the shooting down of civilian airliners within Sudan, incidents involving considerable loss of life. It is a matter of record that in its 1994 report Civilian Devastation: Abuses by all Parties in the War in Southern Sudan, a 279-page study, Human Rights Watch/Africa devoted 169 pages to "SPLA Violations of the Rules of War": government violations were dealt with over 52 pages. Human Rights Watch/Africa reported that the SPLA was guilty of, amongst other things, indiscriminate attacks on civilians, abducting civilians, mainly women and children, torture, summary executions, the deliberate starvation of civilians, forced recruitment and forced labour, theft of civilian animals, food and grain, and the holding of long-term political prisoners in prolonged arbitrary detention.[60] Garang is also politically at best similar to many former Marxists within central and eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that is to say politically untrustworthy and opportunistic. A clear indication both of Garang's political orientation and his own ethics was the unconditional military, logistical and political support he received, and accepted, from the doctrinaire Marxist government in Ethiopia. The Mengistu regime in Ethiopia, the Dergue, was responsible for the murder of thousands of Ethiopians, the forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of other Ethiopians, a policy which directly resulted in the agricultural failures and famine highlighted by the Western media in the 1980s. For the SPLM/A to accept support and ideological comfort from such a bloodstained regime is a clear indictment on the ethics, judgement and political orientation of John Garang. Given the above facts about John Garang and his organisation it is somewhat jarring to read in Christian Solidarity International's June 1996 report that you recommend support for "the efforts of the SPLM/A...to promote the values and institutions of civil society". You also claim that "the SPLM/A shows a serious commitment to the implementation of principles and policies for the promotion of peace and justice".[61] Baroness Cox, your close association with both John Garang and Sadiq al-Mahdi, when coupled to your obviously sincere concern about slavery and slavery-like practices is confusing given that most, if not all, human rights organisations and commentators date the "slavery" issue to the mid-to-late 1980s, when the government of Sadiq al-Mahdi armed tribal militias against the SPLA. The then government and the SPLA armed long-standing tribal enemies and in effect renewed the culture of hostage taking, ransoming and abduction - which unfortunately continues to this day despite concerted attempts to stop it. The SPLM/A is additionally undeniably guilty of slavery and slavery-like practices through its abduction and use as forced labour of thousands of southern Sudanese men, women and children. What is even more questionable is that you have not only associated with these men and their organisations, but that you have actively argued their case within the United States Congress and at Westminster. It is indeed ironic that both the SPLM/A and Sadiq al- Mahdi's Umma party are partners in the National Democratic Alliance. John Garang's faction of the SPLM/A is now in direct coalition with the Umma party, a party responsible for many of the atrocities of record within the Sudanese civil war. It was not so long ago that Garang was calling Sadiq al-Mahdi an "Islamic extremist" and Sadiq al- Mahdi was referring to Garang as a "terrorist". It is also somewhat surprising that in addition to these two groupings, the National Democratic Alliance, an organisation you clearly support, has another questionable component, the Sudanese Communist Party - a party with as much of a commitment to democracy as the SPLA and Umma party. The close identification of Christian Solidarity International with Sadiq al-Mahdi has led what can only be described as a selective reading of recent events in Sudan. The CSI report on its visit to Sudan from 10-15 June 1996 provides an example of this selectivity. Baroness Cox was accompanied on this trip by Mubarak al-Fadil al- Mahdi, a former senior Umma party minister in his cousin Sadiq al- Mahdi's government and now General Secretary of the NDA, Hammad Salih, the East Africa representative of the Umma party, and Bona Malwal, a Sudanese exile who had been a minister during the Nimeiry dictatorship. The CSI report recorded the speeches made by all three during the visit inside Sudan. Mubarak al-Mahdi warned against any attempts to encourage conflict between the Dinkas and Arabised tribes "because such conflict is wrong, and because Allah will not tolerate wrong-doing: Islam does not allow us to attack innocent people." Bona Malwal, a Dinka, was reported as saying that the present government "has armed our local Arab brothers to fight against us". Haddam Salih stated that "Muslims have been attacking Dinkas, burning houses and killing people; this should not be our way; such behaviour reflects badly on Islam and we must stop doing such things...it is not in your own interests to fight your neighbours". There was not the slightest mention of the Umma party's involvement in years of actively encouraging the very things they were now said to be decrying. This may have been because Mubarak al-Fadil al-Mahdi was the Interior Minister under Sadiq al-Mahdi at the height of the human rights abuses within Sudan, a man described by African Rights as being "seen by many as the architect of the militia policy".62 Bona Malwal is also no stranger to the al-Mahdi militia policy and its related slavery-like practices. As the editor of the Sudan Times, an English-language newspaper published in Khartoum, Malwal had extensively reported on the militia policy, and the abductions and kidnappings associated with it, at the time in 1987. He was denounced by Umma party politicians as an enemy of the Sudan and Sadiq al-Mahdi threatened to close down the Sudan Times.63 Malwal's silence on the very history he so starkly documented in the late 1980s is possibly explained by his current close, and some would say opportunistic, association with the very same Umma party politicians who designed and unleashed the militia policy. It is clear that Sudanese exile politics certainly makes for strange bedfellows. Conclusion It is a matter of record that the present government inherited the Sudanese civil war and inherited the atrocious human rights record of the previous administrations. There is also no doubt that as long as the armed conflict within Sudan continues, there will be human rights abuses by all sides to the conflict, such is the nature of war, and particularly civil war. What can be said is that the present government presents itself as a pragmatic administration. It would appear to have quickly grasped the essence of civil war and the dynamics of guerrilla war. The present government realised very early on that despite a very positive military situation by 1993, it probably would be unable to militarily defeat its armed opposition and that those elements of the SPLA still in the field were very unlikely to topple the Sudanese government. The result was a political stalemate. The government of Sudan then made a number of strategic concessions: Islamic sharia law was limited, a federal system was introduced followed by local and state elections and then parliamentary and presidential elections observed by the Organisation of African Unity. The April 1996 Political Charter guaranteed a political referendum for southerners to determine the political status of the south of Sudan. The nation-wide code of sharia law within Sudan inherited by the present government from the Sadiq al- Mahdi regime has been limited to those parts of Sudan in which there is a Muslim majority population: non-Muslim areas in the south were exempted. Even the United States Department of State was forced to note that sharia exemptions were applied to the south. Given all the strategic concessions made by this government, its attempts to negotiate peace and achieve a political settlement with the leaders and people of southern Sudan, and the delicate balance within Sudanese politics, it is inconceivable that the government would be party to, or in any way condone, slavery or slavery-related practices. The various key human rights organisations have quite simply not produced any credible evidence of state-sanctioned or condoned slavery or slavery-like practices. What these human rights groups have documented contradicts such claims. These human rights groups have shown repeated interventions by government authorities to free people detained by tribal militias. They have also documented that due process of law exists in Sudan, whereby Sudanese courts have repeatedly freed people held illegally. The cases reported by groups such as Human Rights Watch/Africa also show that many of the children freed by Sudanese courts under this government were abducted by militias and forces loyal to Sadiq al-Mahdi before the present government was in power. Baroness Cox, in conclusion, it must be stated that your work on the issue of slavery and slavery-like practices within Sudan is somewhat undermined by your close association with, and support for, Sadiq al- Mahdi and the Umma party and for John Garang and his SPLM/A group, both clearly identified with slavery and related practices according to your own definition. Indeed, your June 1996 trip to south-western Sudan, the scene of so many of the horrific abuses inspired and sanctioned by the Umma party in the late 1980s, including abduction and kidnapping followed by what you term slavery (and documented in some of your own reports) was in the company of very architect of the policy of arming the tribal militias who wreaked such devastation, Mubarak al-Fadil al-Mahdi. For someone as deeply interested in the issue of slavery within the Sudan, your reports show not the slightest interest in the immediate history of slavery and slavery- related practices. Indeed, you openly support those men who are directly responsible for them. Nor do your reports show the slightest interest in the thousands of southern men, women and children abducted and used for forced labour or as "military slaves" by John Garang and the SPLA. Indeed, you visit parts of Sudan in the company, and under the protection, of the very SPLM/A gunmen responsible for such abductions and slavery-related practices. What your reports, and those of others, also do not explain, is that if what you say is true, and that there is widespread slavery of southern Sudanese by northern Sudanese, then why have two million southern Sudanese voluntarily sought refuge in Khartoum, the very heart of the north, rather than fleeing further south? There is a further twist. Is it not somewhat contradictory that Christian Solidarity International clearly seeks to hold the government of Sudan accountable for practices and human rights abuses which are happening in areas of Sudan in which government administration has historically always been weak, and in which there has been a clear break-down in law and order, given that the break- down in law and order has been brought about by the very SPLA gunmen you unreservedly support and openly associate with? Recommendations Given that there already exist many channels through which it is possible to bring pressure to bear on the Government of Sudan, and given that you are so closely identified with John Garang and his faction of the SPLA, those of us who are committed to a peaceful, negotiated settlement of the Sudanese conflict call upon you: 1 To urge the British Government to adopt a balanced and more constructive approach to the Sudanese political situation, particularly with regard to abuses of human rights by all parties to the Sudanese civil war, and to consider increasing developmental assistance to Sudan to alleviate the social conditions in which many of these abuses take place. 2 To consider a more balanced and less partisan personal approach to the Sudanese civil war, particular with regard to reports published and distributed by Christian Solidarity International 3 To bring pressure to bear on John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to end the slavery and slavery-like practices with which he has been so closely associated. 4 To particularly pressurise John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to return those children his organisation have forcibly removed from southern Sudan for the purpose of developing as a "Red Army" and to co-operate with Sudanese and international humanitarian organisations in reuniting these minors with their families. 5 To pressurise John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to end the systematic abuse of human rights with which they have for so long been associated. 6 To call Sadiq al-Mahdi publicly into account for the practices and human rights abuses encouraged by his party and governments during the 1980s. 7 To urge John Garang and his faction of the SPLM/A to follow the lead of so many of his southern colleagues and enter into the ongoing Sudanese peace process, a process which has resulted in the signing of political charters guaranteeing most if not all of the demands of the southern Sudanese political leaders, including a referendum on the status of the southern Sudan. 8 To consider investigating, and producing a report on, the issue of the "warehousing" of children by the SPLA for subsequent use as child soldiers. 9 To reconsider your continuing support for the National Democratic Alliance and particularly the Garang faction of the SPLA, given the commitment of those organisations to a violent resolution of Sudan's political problems, especially given that there are clear moves towards a peaceful negotiated settlement from within Sudan itself. David Hoile is a public affairs consultant. He has written and edited several books on African affairs. He has visited the Sudan on several occasions, and observed the 1996 parliamentary and presidential elections."
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 06:57 pm history about race and slavery: "The institution of slavery had indeed been practiced from time immemorial. It existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America. It had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world. Slavery is attested from the very earliest written records, among the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, and other ancient peoples. The earliest slaves, it would seem, were captives taken in warfare. Their numbers were augmented from other sources of supply. In pre-classical antiquity, most slaves appear to have been the property of kings, priests, and temples, and only a relatively small proportion were in private possession. They were employed to till the fields and tend the flocks of their royal and priestly masters but otherwise seem to have played little role in economic production, which was mostly left to small farmers, tenants, and sharccroppers and to artisans and journeymen. The slave population was also recruited by the sale, abandonment, or kidnapping of small children. Free persons could sell themselves or, more frequently, their offspring into slavery. They could be enslaved for insolvency, as could be the persons offered by them as pledges. In some systems, notably that of Rome, free persons could also be enslaved for a variety of offenses against the law. Both the Old and New Testaments recognize and accept the institution of slavery. Both from time to time insist on the basic humanity of the slave, and the consequent need to treat him humanely. The Jews are frequently reminded, in both Bible and Talmud, that they too were slaves in Egypt and should therefore treat their slaves decently. Psalm 123, which compares the worshipper's appeal to God for mercy with the slave's appeal to his master, is cited to enjoin slaveowners to treat their slaves with compassion. A verse in the book of Job has even been interpreted as an argument against slavery as such: "Did not He that made me in the womb make him [the slave]? And did not One fashion us both?" (Job 31:15). This probably means no more, however, than that the slave is a fellow human being and not a mere chattel. The same is true of the much-quoted passage in the New Testament, that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." These and similar verses were not understood to mean that ethnic, social, and gender differences were unimportant or should be abolished, only that they conferred no religious privilege. From many allusions, it is clear that slavery is accepted in the New Testament as a fact of life. Some passages in the Pauline Epistles even endorse it. Thus in the Epistle to Philemon, a runaway slave is returned to his master; in Ephesians 6, the duty owed by a slave to his master is compared with the duty owed by a child to his parent, and the slave is enjoined "to be obedient to them that are your masters, according to the flesh, in fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ." Parents and masters are likewise enjoined to show consideration for their children and slaves. All humans, of the true faith, were equal in the eyes of God and in the afterlife but not necessarily in the laws of man and in this world. Those not of the true faith -- whichever it was -- were in another, and in most respects an inferior, category. In this respect, the Greek perception of the barbarian and the Judeo-Christian-lslamic perception of the unbeliever coincide. There appear indeed to have been some who opposed slavery, usually as it was practiced but sometimes even as such. In the Greco-Roman world, both the Cynics and the Stoics are said to have rejected slavery as contrary to justice, some basing their opposition on the unity of the human race, and the Roman jurists even held that slavery was contrary to nature and maintained only by "human" law. There is no evidence that either jurists or philosophers sought its abolition, and even their theoretical opposition has been questioned. Much of it was concerned with moral and spiritual themes -- the true freedom of the good man, even when enslaved, and the enslavement of the evil freeman to his passions. These ideas, which recur in Jewish and Christian writings, were of little help to those who suffered the reality of slavery. Philo, the Alexandrian Jewish philosopher, claims that a Jewish sect actually renounced slavery in practice. In a somewhat idealized account of the Essenes, he observes that they practiced a form of primitive communism, sharing homes and property and pooling their earnings. Furthermore, "not a single slave is to be found among them, but all are free, exchanging services with each other, and they denounce the owners of slaves, not merely for their injustice in outraging the law of equality, but also for their impiety in annulling the statute of Nature, who mother-like bore and reared all men alike, and created them genuine brothers, not in mere name, but in very reality, though this kinship has been put to confusion by the triumph of malignant covetousness, which has wrought estrangement instead of affinity and enmity instead of friendship. " This view, if it was indeed held and put into practice, was unique in the ancient Middle East. Jews, Christians, and pagans alike owned slaves and exercised the rights and powers accorded to them by their various religious laws. In all communities, there were men of compassion who urged slaveowners to treat their slaves humanely, and there was even some attempt to secure this by law. But the institution of slavery as such was not seriously questioned, and was indeed often defended in terms of either Natural Law or Divine Dispensation. Thus Aristotle defends the condition of slavery and even the forcible enslavement of those who are "by nature slaves, for whom to be governed by this kind of authority is beneficial"; other Greek philosophers express similar ideas, particularly about enslaved captives from conquered peoples. For such, slavery is not only right; it is also to their advantage. The ancient Israelites did not claim that slavery was beneficial to the slaves, but, like the ancient Greeks, they felt the need to explain and justify the enslavement of their neighbors. In this, as in other matters, they sought a religious rather than a philosophical sanction and found it in the biblical story of the curse of Ham. Significantly, this curse was restricted to one line only of the descendants of Ham, namely, the children of Canaan, whom the Israelites had subjugated when they conquered the Promised Land, and did not affect the others. The Qur'an, like the Old and the New Testaments, assumes the existence of slavery. It regulates the practice of the institution and thus implicitly accepts it. The Prophet Muhammad and those of his Companions who could afford it themselves owned slaves; some of them acquired more by conquest. But Qur'anic legislation, subsequently confirmed and elaborated in the Holy Law, brought two major changes to ancient slavery which were to have far-reaching effects. One of these was the presumption of freedom; the other, the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances . The Qur'an was promulgated in Mecca and Medina in the seventh century, and the background against which Qur'anic legislation must be seen is ancient Arabia. The Arabs practiced a form of slavery, similar to that which existed in other parts of the ancient world. The Qur'an accepts the institution, though it may be noted that the word 'abd (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such as ma malakat aymanukum, "that which your right hands own." The Qur'an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter (XVI:71; XXX:28). It also recognizes concubinage (IV:3; XXIII:6; XXXIII:50-52; LXX:30). It urges, without actually commanding, kindness to the slave (IV:36; IX:60; XXIV:58) and recommends, without requiring, his liberation by purchase or manumission. The freeing of slaves is recommended both for the expiation of sins (IV:92; V:92; LVIII:3) and as an act of simple benevolence (II:177; XXIV:33; XC:13). It exhorts masters to allow slaves to earn or purchase their own freedom. An important change from pagan, though not from Jewish or Christian, practices is that in the strictly religious sense, the believing slave is now the brother of the freeman in Islam and before God, and the superior of the free pagan or idolator (II:221). This point is emphasized and elaborated in innumerable hadlths (traditions), in which the Prophet is quoted as urging considerate and sometimes even equal treatment for slaves, denouncing cruelty, harshness, or even discourtesy, recommending the liberation of slaves, and reminding the Muslims that his apostolate was to free and slave alike. Though slavery was maintained, the Islamic dispensation enormously improved the position of the Arabian slave, who was now no longer merely a chattel but was also a human being with a certain religious and hence a social status and with certain quasi-legal rights. The early caliphs who ruled the Islamic community after the death of the Prophet also introduced some further reforms of a humanitarian tendency. The enslavement of free Muslims was soon discouraged and eventually prohibited. It was made unlawful for a freeman to sell himself or his children into slavery, and it was no longer permitted for freemen to be enslaved for either debt or crime, as was usual in the Roman world and, despite attempts at reform, in parts of Christian Europe until at least the sixteenth century. It became a fundamental principle of Islamic jurisprudence that the natural condition, and therefore the presumed status, of mankind was freedom, just as the basic rule concerning actions is permittedness: what is not expressly forbidden is permitted; whoever is not known to be a slave is free. This rule was not always strictly observed. Rebels and heretics were sometimes denounced as infidels or, worse, apostates, and reduced to slavery, but by and large, and certainly in the central lands of Islam, under regimes of high civilization, the rule was honored, and free subjects of the state, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, were protected from unlawful enslavement. Since all human beings were naturally free, slavery could only arise from two circumstances: (1) being born to slave parents or (2) being captured in war. The latter was soon restricted to infidels captured in a jihad. In the early days of rapid conquest and expansion, the holy war brought a plentiful supply of new slaves, but as the frontiers were gradually stabilized, this supply dwindled to a mere trickle. Most wars were now conducted against organized armies, like those of the Byzantines or other Christian states, and with them prisoners of war were commonly ransomed or exchanged. Within the Islamic frontiers, Islam spread rapidly among the populations of the newly acquired territories, and even those who remained faithful to their old religions and lived as protected persons (dhimmis) under Muslim rule could not, if free, be legally enslaved unless they had violated the terms of the dhimma, the contract governing their status, as for example by rebelling against Muslim rule or helping the enemies of the Muslim state or, according to some authorities, by withholding pa'yment of the Kharaj or the Jizya, the taxes due from dhimmls to the Muslim state. In the Islamic empire, the humanitarian tendency of the Qur'an and the early caliphs was to some extent counteracted by other influences. Notable among these was the practice of the various conquered peoples and countries which the Muslims encountered after their expansion, especially in provinces previously under Roman law. This law, even in its Christianized form, was still very harsh in its treatment of slaves. Perhaps equally important was the huge increase in the slave population resulting first from the conquests themselves, and then from the organization of a great network of importation. These led to a fall in the cash value and hence the human value of slaves, and to a general adoption of a harsher tone and severer rules. But even after this stiffening of attitudes and laws, Islamic practice still represented a vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium. Non-Muslim subjects of the Muslim state, that is, dhimmis, were in practice allowed to own slaves; and Christian and Jewish families who could afford it owned and employed slaves in the same way as their Muslim counterparts. They were not permitted to own Muslim slaves; and if a slave owned by a dhimmi embraced Islam, his owner was legally obliged to free or sell him. Jewish slaves, acquired through privateering in the Mediterranean and slave raiding in Eastern Europe, were often redeemed and set free by their local co-religionists. The vastly more numerous Christian slaves -- apart from West Europeans, whose ransoms could be arranged from home -- were for the most part doomed to remain. Sometimes, Christian and Jewish slaveowners tried to convert their domestic slaves to their own religions. Jews were indeed required by rabbinic law to try to persuade their slaves to accept conversion with circumcision and ritual immersion. A form of semi-conversion, whereby the slave accepted some basic commandments and observances, but not the full rigor of the Mosaic law, was widely practiced. According to Jewish law, a converted or even semi-converted slave could not be sold to a Gentile. If the owner in fact so sold him or her, the slave was to be set free. Conversely, a slave who refused even semi-conversion was, after a stipulated interval of time, to be sold to a Gentile. Muslim authorities, both jurists and rulers, took different views of this. Conversion from Islam was of course a capital offense, and some jurists held that only conversion to Islam was lawful. Others, however, saw no objection to conversion between non-Muslim religions, provided that the converted slaves had reached the age of reason and changed their religion of their own free will. There were occasional slave rebellions and, from the rules and regulations about runaway slaves, it would appear that such escapes were not infrequent. Slaves from neighboring countries might have some chance of returning to their homes, and examples are known of European slaves in the Ottoman lands escaping to Europe, where some indeed wrote memoirs or accounts of their captivity. The chances of a slave from the steppe-lands or from Africa finding his way back were remote. As we have seen, the slave population was recruited in four main ways: by capture, tribute, offspring, and purchase. Capture: In the early centuries of Islam, during the period of the conquest and expansion, this was the most important source. With the stabilization of the frontier, the numbers recruited in this way diminished, and eventually provided only a very small proportion of slave requirements. Frontier warfare and naval raiding yielded some captives, but these were relatively few and were usually exchanged. In later centuries, warfare in Africa or India supplied some slaves by capture. With the spread of Islam, and the acceptance of dhimml status by increasing numbers of non-Muslims, the possibilities for recruitment by capture were severely restricted. Tribute: Slaves sometimes formed part of the tribute required from vassal states beyond the Islamic frontiers. The first such treaty ever made, that of the year 31 of the Hijra (= 652 A.D.), with the black king of Nubia, included an annual levy of slaves to be provided from Nubia. This may indeed have been the reason why Nuhia was for a long time not conquered. The stipulated delivery of some hundreds of male and female slaves, later supplemented by elephants, giraffes, and other wild beasts, continued at least until the twelfth century, when it was disrupted by a series of bitter wars between the Muslim rulers of Egypt and the Christian kings of Nubia. Similar agreements, providing for the delivery of a tribute of slaves, were imposed by the early Arab conquerors on neighboring princes in Iran and Central Asia, but were of briefer duration. Offspring: The recruitment of the slave population by natural increase seems to have been small and, right through to modern times, insufficient to maintain numbers. This is in striking contrast with conditions in the New World, where the slave population increased very rapidly. Several factors contributed to this difference, perhaps the most important being that the slave population in the Islamic Middle East was constantly drained by the liberation of slaves -- sometimes as an act of piety, most commonly through the recognition and liberation, by a freeman, of his own offspring by a slave mother. There were also other reasons for the low natural increase of the slave population in the Islamic world. They include 1. Castration. A fair proportion of male slaves were imported as eunuchs and thus precluded from having offspring. Among these were many who otherwise, by the wealth and power which they acquired, might have founded families . 2. Another group of slaves who rose to positions of great power, the military slaves, were normally liberated at some stage in their career, and their offspring were therefore free and not slaves. 3. In general, only the lower orders of slaves -- menial, domestic, and manual workers -- remained in the condition of servitude and transmitted that condition to their descendants. There were not many such descendants -- casual mating was not permitted and marriage was not encouraged. 4. There was a high death toll among all classes of slaves, including great military commanders as well as humble menials. Slaves came mainly from remote places, and, lacking immunities, died in large numbers from endemic as well as epidemic diseases. As late as the nineteenth century, Wes ern travelers in North Africa and Egypt noted the high death rate among imported black slaves. Purchase: This came to be by far the most important means for the legal acquisition of new slaves. Slaves were purchased on the frontiers of the Islamic world and then imported to the major centers, where there were slave markets from which they were widely distributed. In one of the sad paradoxes of human history, it was the humanitarian reforms brought by Islam that resulted in a vast development of the slave trade inside, and still more outside, the Islamic empire. In the Roman world, the slave population was occasionally recruited from outside, when a new territory was conquered or a barbarian invasion repelled, but mostly, slaves came from internal sources. This was not possible in the Islamic empire, where, although slavery was maintained, enslavement was banned. The result was an increasingly massive importation of slaves from the outside. Like enslavement, mutilation was forbidden by Islamic law. The great numbers of eunuchs needed to preserve the sanctity of palaces, homes, and some holy places had to be imported from outside or, as often happened, "manufactured" at the frontier. In medieval and Ottoman times the two main sources of eunuchs were Slavs and Ethiopians (Habash, a term which commonly included all the peoples of the Horn of Africa). Eunuchs were also recruited among Greeks (Rum), West Africans (Takrurl, pl. Takarina), Indians, and occasionally West Europeans. The slave population of the Islamic world was recruited from many lands. In the earliest days, slaves came principally from the newly conquered countries -- from the Fertile Crescent and Egypt, from Iran and North Africa, from Central Asia, India, and Spain. Most of these slaves had a cultural level at least as high as that of their Arab masters, and by conversion and manumission they were rapidly absorbed into the general population. As the supply of slaves by conquest and capture diminished, the needs of the slave market were met, more and more, by importation from beyond the frontier. Small numbers of slaves were brought from India, China, Southeast Asia, and the Byzantine Empire, most of them specialists and technicians of one kind or another. The vast majority of unskilled slaves, however, came from the lands immediately north and south of the Islamic world -- whites from Europe and the Eurasian steppes, blacks from Africa south of the Sahara. Among white Europeans and black Africans alike, there was no lack of enterprising merchants and middlemen, eager to share in this profitable trade, who were willing to capture or kidnap their neighbors and deliver them, as slaves, to a ready and expanding market. In Europe there was also an important trade in slaves, Muslim, Jewish, pagan, and even Orthodox Christian, recruited by capture and bought for mainly domestic use. Central and East European slaves, generally known as Saqaliba (i.e., Slavs), were imported by three main routes: overland via France and Spain, from Eastern Europe via the Crimea, and by sea across the Mediterranean. They were mostly but not exclusively Slavs. Some were captured by Muslim naval raids on European coasts, particularly the Dalmatian. Most were supplied by European, especially Venetian, slave merchants, who delivered cargoes of them to the Muslim markets in Spain and North Africa. The Saqaliba were prominent in Muslim Spain and to a lesser extent in North Africa but played a minor role in the East. With the consolidation of powerful states in Christian Europe, the supply of West European slaves dried up and was maintained only by privateering and coastal raiding from North Africa. By Ottoman times, the first for which we have extensive documentation, the pattern of importation had changed. At first, the expanding Ottoman Empire, like the expanding Arab Empire of earlier times, recruited its slaves by conquest and capture, and great numbers of Balkan Christians were forcibly brought into Ottoman service. The distinctively Ottoman institution of the devsirme, the levy of boys from the Christian village population, made it possible, contrary to previous Islamic law and practice, to recruit slaves from the subject peoples of the conquered provinces. The devsirme slaves were not servants or menials, however, but were groomed for the service of the state in military and civil capacities. For a long time, most of the grand viziers and military commanders of the Ottoman forces were recruited in this way. In the early seventeenth century, the devsirme was abandoned; by the end of the seventeenth century, the Ottoman advance into Europe had been decisively halted and reversed. Sea raiders operating out of North African ports continued to bring European captives, but these did not significantly add to the slave populations. Pretty girls disappeared into the harem; men often had the choice of being ransomed or joining their captors -- a choice of which many availed themselves. The less fortunate, like the Muslim captives who fell to the European maritime powers, served in the galleys. The slave needs of the Ottoman Empire were now met from new sources. One of these was the Caucasians -- the Georgians, Circassians, and related peoples, famous for providing beautiful women and brave and handsome men. The former figured prominently in the harems, the latter in the armies and administrations of the Ottoman and also the Persian states. The supply of these was reduced but not terminated by the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the early years of the nineteenth century. Another source of supply was the Tatar khanate of the Crimea, whose raiders every year rode far and wide in Central and Eastern Europe, carrying off great numbers of male and female slaves. These were brought to the Crimea and shipped thence to the slave markets in Istanbul and other Turkish cities. This trade came to an end with the Russian annexation of the Crimea in 1783 and the extinction of Tatar independence. the white mostly through voluntary sale on the part of their relatives in the independent lands of the Caucasus (Lesghi, Daghestani, and Georgian women, rarely men). Those offered for sale were already previously of servile status or were slave children by birth." There is a fair amount of information on slave prices, most of it too heterogeneous in date and provenance to provide more than a general impression. The best-documented data come from medieval Egypt and show a remarkable consistency in price levels. Slave girls averaged twenty dinars (gold pieces), corresponding, at the rate of gold to silver current at that time, to 266 dirhams (silver pieces). Other medieval data show somewhat higher prices. Black slaves seem to have cost from two to three hundred dirhams; black eunuchs, at least two or three times as much. Female black slaves were sold at five hundred dirhams or so; trained singing girls or other performers, at ten or even twenty thousand. White slaves, mainly for military purposes, were more expensive. Prices of three hundred dirhams are quoted for Turks near the source in Central Asia, and much higher prices elsewhere. In Baghdad they fetched four to five hundred dirhams, while a white slave girl could be sold for a thousand dinars or more. The mid-nineteenth-century German report from Turkey quotes prices of four thousand to five thousand piasters, or two hundred to three hundred dollars, as the current price in Istanbul for a "trained, strong, black slave," while "for white slave girls of special beauty, fifty thousand piasters and more are paid." In general, eunuchs fetched higher prices than other males, younger slaves were worth more than older slaves, and slave women, whether for work or pleasure, were more expensive than males. Olufr Eigilsson, an Icelandic Lutheran pastor who was carried off to captivity with his family and many of his flock when his native village was raided by Barbary Corsairs in 1627 and who wrote an account of his adventures, notes that his young maidservant was sold for seven hundred dollars and later resold for a thousand. Slaves were employed in a number of functions -- in the home and the shop, in agriculture and industry, in the military, as well as in specialized tasks. The Islamic world did not operate on a slave system of production, as is said of classical antiquity, but slavery was not entirely domestic either. Slave laborers of various kinds were of some importance in medieval times, especially where large-scale enterprises were involved, and they continued to be into the nineteenth century. The most important slaves, however, those of whom we have the fullest information, were domestic and commercial, and it is they who were the characteristic slaves of the Muslim world. They seem to have been mainly blacks, with some Indians, and some whites. ln later times, for which we have more detailed evidence, it would seem that while the slaves often suffered appalling privations from the moment of their capture until their arrival at their final destination, once they were placed with a family they were reasonably well treated and accepted in some degree as members of the household. In commerce, slaves were often apprenticed to their masters, sometimes as assistants, sometimes advancing to become agents or even business partners. The slave and also the liberated ex-slave played an important part in domestic life. Eunuchs were required for the protection and maintenance of harems, as confidential servants, as palace staff, and also as custodians of mosques, tombs, and other sacred places. Slave women were required mainly as concubines and as menials. A Muslim slaveowner was entitled by law to the sexual enjoyment of his slave women. While free women might own male slaves, they had of course no equivalent right. The military slaves were in a sense the aristocrats of the slave population. By far the most important among these were the Turks imported from the Eurasian steppe, from Central Asia, and from what is now Chinese Turkistan. A similar position was occupied by Slavs in medieval Muslim Spain and North Africa and, later, by slaves of Balkan and Caucasian origin in the Ottoman Empire. Black slaves were occasionally employed as soldiers, but this was not common and was usually of brief duration. Certainly the most privileged of slaves were the performers. Both slave boys and slave girls who revealed some talent received musical, literary, and artistic education. In medieval times most singers, dancers, and musical performers were, at least in origin, slaves. Perhaps the most famous was Ziryab, a Persian slave at the court of Baghdad who later went to Spain, where he became an arbiter of taste and is credited with having introduced asparagus to Europe. Not a few slaves and freedmen have left their names in Arabic poetry and history. In a society where positions of military command and political power were routinely held by men of slave origin or even status and where a significant proportion of the free population were born to slave mothcrs, prejudice against the slave as such, of the Roman or American type, could hardly develop. Where such prejudice and hostility appear -- and they are often expressed in literature and other evidence -- they must be attributed to racial more than to social distinction. The developing pattern of racial specialization in the use of slaves must surely have contributed greatly to the growth of such re judice . The military slave, who bears arms and fights for his owner, was a known but not common figure in antiquity. In the late fifth and early fourth centuries B.C., the city of Athens was policed by a corps of armed Scythian slaves, originally numbering some three hundred, who were the property of the city. Some Roman dignitaries had armed slave bodyguards; some owned gladiators, as men in other times might own gamecocks or racehorses, but in general the Greeks and Romans did not approve of the use of slaves in combatant duties. It was not until the medieval Islamic state that we find military slaves in significant numbers, forming a substantial and eventually predominant component in their armies. The professional slave soldier, so characteristic of later Islamic empires, was not present in the earliest Islamic regimes. There were indeed slaves who fought in the army of the Prophet, but they were there as Muslims and as loyal followers, not as slaves or professionals. Most of them were freed for their services. Iranians in the East, Berbers in the West, reinforced the Arab armies and contributed significantly to the further advance of Islam, eastward into Central Asia and beyond, westward across North Africa and into Spain. These were, however, not slaves but freedmen. Though their status was at first inferior to that of freeborn Arabs, it was certainly not servile, and in time the differences in rank, pay, and status between free and freed soldiers disappeared. As so often, the historiographic tradition foreshortens this development and attributes it to a decree of the Caliph 'Umar, who is said to have ordered his governors to make the privileges and duties of manumitted and converted recruits "among the red people" the same as those of the Arabs. "What is due to these, is due to those; what is due from these, is due from those." The limitation of this concession to the "red people," a term commonly applied by the Arabs to the Iranians and later extended to their Central Asian neighbors, is surely significant. The recruitment of aliens, that is, non-Arabs and often non-Muslims, was by no means restricted to liberated captives, and the distinction between freed subjects, free mercenaries, and bought barbarian slaves is often tenuous. In recruiting barbarians from the "martial races" beyond the frontiers into their imperial armies, the Arabs were doing what the Romans and the Chinese had done centuries before them. In the scale of this recruitment, however, and the preponderant role acquired by these recruits in the imperial and eventually metropolitan forces, Muslim rulers went far beyond any precedent. As early as 766 a Christian clergyman writing in Syriac spoke of the "locust swarm" of unconverted barbarians -- Sindhis, Alans, Khazars, Turks, and others -- who served in the caliph's army. In the course of the ninth century, slave armies appeared all over the Islamic empire. Sometimes, as in North Africa and later Egypt, they were recruited by ambitious governors seeking to create autonomous and hereditary principalities and requiring troops who would be loyal to them against their immediate subjects and their imperial suzerains. Sometimes it was the caliphs themselves who recruited such armies. Such, for example, were the palace guards recruited by the Umayyad Caliph al-Hakam in Cordova and the Abbasid Caliph al-Mu'tasim in Iraq. This was a new institution in Islam. The patriarchal caliphs, and their successors for more than a hundred years, had no slave praetorian guards, but were protected in their palace by a small force of free Arabs and, under the early Abbasids, freed soldiers and their descendants from Khurasan. Within a remarkably short time, the slave palace guard became the norm for Muslim rulers, and rapidly developed into a slave army, serving both to maintain the ruler in his palace and his capital and, for a sultan, to uphold his imperial authority in the provinces. In the East, slave soldiers were recruited mainly among the Turkish and to a lesser extent among the Iranian peoples of the Eurasian steppe and of Central and inner Asia; in the West, from the Berbers of North Africa and from the Slavs of Europe. Some soldiers, particularly in Egypt and North Africa, were brought from among the black peoples farther south. As the frontiers of Islam steadily expanded through conversion and annexation, the periphery was pushed farther and farther away, and the enslaved barbarians came from ever-remoter regions in Asia, Africa, and, to a very limited extent, Europe. Some of these soldiers were captured in wars, raids, and forays. The more usual practice, however, was for them to be purchased, for money, on the Islamic frontiers. It was in this way that Muslims bought and imported the Central Asian Turks who came to constitute the vast majority of eastern Muslim armies. Captured and sold to the Muslims at a very tender age, they were given a careful and elaborate education and training, not only in the military arts but also in the norms of Islamic civilization. From their ranks were drawn the soldiers, then the officers, and finally the commanders of the armies of Islam. From this it was only a step to the ultimate paradox, the slave kings who ruled in Cairo, in Delhi, and in other capitals. Even the Ottomans, though themselves a freeborn imperial dynasty, relied for their infantry on the celebrated slave corps of Janissaries, and most of the sultans were themselves sons of slave mothers. The mamluk sultans and emirs who ruled Egypt, Syria, and western Arabia for two-and-a-half centuries, until the Ottoman conquest in 1517, rigorously excluded their own freeborn and locally born offspring from the apparatus of political and military power, including even the sultanate itself. They nevertheless succeeded in maintaining their system for centuries. In part, the common bond of mamluk regiments was ethnic. Many regiments, and the quarters which they inhabited, were based on ethnic and even tribal groups. But in the main, the bond was social rather than racial. At a certain stage in his career, the mamluk was emancipated, and, on becoming a freeman, himself bought and owned mamluks who, rather than his physical sons, were his true successors. The most powerful bond and loyalty, within the mamluk system, was that owed by the slave to his master, and, after manumission, by the freedman to his patron. In the military sense, the slave armies were remarkably effective. In the later Middle Ages, it was the mamluks of Egypt who finally defeated and expelled the Crusaders and halted the Mongol advance across the Middle East, the Ottoman Janissary infantry who conquered Southeastern Europe. It was in accordance with the logic of the system that the mamluk armies of Egypt consisted mainly of slaves imported from the Turkish and Circassian peoples of the Black Sea area, while the Ottoman Janissaries were recruited mainly from the Slavic and Albanian populations of the Balkans. Ibn Khaldun, surely the greatest of all Arab historians, writing in the fourteenth century, saw in the coming of the Turks and in the institution of slavery by which they came, the manifestation of God's providential concern for the safety and survival of the Muslim state and people: "When the [Abbasid] state was drowned in decadence and luxury. . . and overthrown by the heathen Tatars . . . because the people of the faith had become deficient in energy and reluctant to rally in defense . . . then it was God's benevolence that He rescued the faith by reviving its dying breath and restoring the unity of the Muslims in the Egyptian realms.... He did this by sending to the Muslims, from among this Turkish nation and its great and numerous tribes, rulers to defend them and utterly loyal helpers, who were brought . . . to the House of Islam under the rule of slavery, which hides in itself a divine blessing. By means of slavery they learn glory and blessing and are exposed to divine providence; cured by slavery, they enter the Muslim religion with the firm resolve of true believers and yet with nomadic virtues unsullied by debased nature, unadulterated by the filth of pleasure, undefiled by ways of civilied living, and with their ardor unbroken by the profusion of luxury.... Thus one intake comes after another and generation follows generation, and Islam rejoices in the benefit which it gains through them, and the branches of the kingdom flourish with the freshness of youth." Most of the military slaves of Islam were white -- Turks and Caucasians in the East, Slavs and other Europeans in the West. Black military slaves were, however, not unknown and indeed at certain periods were of importance. Individual black fighting men, both slaves and free, are mentioned as having participated in raiding and warfare in pre-Islamic and early Islamic times. According to the biographies and histories of the Prophet, there were several blacks, both in his army and in the armies of his pagan enemies. One of them, called Wahshi, an Ethiopian slave, distinguished himself in the battles against the Prophet at Uhud and at the Ditch; and later, after the Muslim capture of Mecca, he fought for the Muslims in the wars that followed the death of the Prophet. Black soldiers appear occasionally in early Abbasid times, and after the slave rebellion in southern Iraq, in which blacks displayed terrifying military prowess, they were recruited into the infantry corps of the caliphs in Baghdad. Ahmad b. Tulun (d. 884), the first independent ruler of Muslim Egypt, relied very heavily on black slaves, probably Nubians, for his armed forces; at his death he is said to have left, among other possessions, twenty-four thousand white mamluks and forty-five thousand blacks. "by a thousand black guards wearing black cloaks and black turbans, so that a watcher could fancy them to be a black sea spreading over the face of the earth, because of the blackness of their color and of their garments. With the glitter of their shields, of the chasing on their swords, and of the helmets under their turbans, they made a really splendid sight. " The black troops were the most faithful supporters of the dynasty, and shared its fate."
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 08:19 pm Galool. (So you think that I have got a disease and Allah has decided to make it worse? Well thanks! That is very nice of him! ) You can make an art of blaming everybeing or else you can accept your fate as you YOURSELF ADMITTED in the same posting: " I suppose one has to accept his fate. One thing though. Hell sounds a lot more fun than heaven.". Have fun and don't share with us. (I am not going to argue with you about whether the Earth is flat or square, because you are not going to change your mind.) That is right. I wonder though, what makes people like you want others change their views and beliefs and not them?. It sounds too selfish to me if not outright dogmatic. (Neither am I going to challenge your Arabic since I don't want to reduce you street cred among your little beardo outfit) I don't recall me asking for favours. Your blaffs are too great to handle. (What is important in your rambling is not so much what you said, but what you DID not say.) If that is the case, why complain?. The opposite is true. Downplaying a message that bites hard doesn't give you credibility. It exposes your weakness. (that Allah did actually call someone a mere human a fat, gossiping so and so. In fact you threatened that the almighty may call me names.) The Quran tells like it is. What did you want the Quran do?. Babysit people like you while they do mischieve in the land of ALLAH?. Nai and Nai Galool. That is not acceptable because the Quran exposes hypocrites and it says: "964. The Hypocrites are afraid lest a Sürah should be sent down about them, showing them what is (really passing) in their hearts. Say: "Mock you! But verily Allah will bring to light all that you fear (should be revealed)." ( You failed to address the issue of slavery.). Asad did explain if you care. Read his post. ( And the wine sounds more like a soda since it says it never leads to inebriation no matter the quantity consumed, which defeats the whole point really ). Oh yea. It defeats your point. Have you seen drunkards who piss in their pants and throw up in the streets?. That is your point I gather. Not to mention how stupid people act when they drink. Why do people need something that renders their intellect and thinking useless if you knew any better?. (But hey, you did admit the contradiction of the 2 day/six day issue.(you resorted to that usual excuse of all true believers: this is what it says, and I have no comment on it) And you recited lots of verses(which really say nothing particularly telling). I can help you understand the whole six days deal here. I know you are asking for the explanation in a civilized manner lol. You don't need to take so much pain to ask for it though remeber?. The two days are included in the six days. The reason they were mentioned separately is due proccess like first thing first. I feel awfully sorry for you to have this poor understanding of the Quran which you want to denounce. Enjoy these verses ace: "41.9. Say: Is it that you deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do you join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. 10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask. " You see?. for all who ask?. what does FOUR+TWO equal?. And the six days in general: "7.54 Your Guardian Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days" "10.3 Verily your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days" "50.38 We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us. " The verses are many. If you got confused on the two days mentioned separately read the after verses which clearly tell the remainder of the four which amount to six in all. If you can't do the math let me know.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 09:41 pm wanaagdoon. Thanks. Galool is explaining the true intellect and wisdom of disbelieve to us. I am hoping he has what it takes to convince us, although he sounds the foot soldier of a bigger evil. He is not well read in the Quranic critisizm. Just a beginner who expected(as always people like him expect) less resistance from chip-the-heads-off-gangs like us. You could tell that from how he complained to BROTHER COMMON and admitted he(galool) wasn't expecting an intelligent guy(like common) would be broud of his islam. Ridiculing the beleivers is their job. They have nothing else to do but admire their failure and despise other people who understand the meaning of existence. Al-Quran: "83.29 Surely they who are guilty used to laugh at those who believe. " "83:30 And when they passed by them, they winked at one another." "83:31 And when they returned to their own followers(other disbeleivers) they returned exulting. " "83:32 And when they saw them(muslims), they(kuffaars) said: Most surely these are in error" "83:33 Yet they were not sent as guardians over them(muslims). " So, people like GALOOL made their bussiness to laugh at others(muslims) who beleive in their LORD. I don't know why though?. MAY BE GALOOL HIMSLEF WILL EXPLAIN THAT TO US?.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 10:04 pm Asad You just can't help yourself can you. I haven't read your history of revolution yet, but reference to slavery - I told you so. Furthermore, note how in "Christian" societies the OBVIOUSLY unethical practice of slavery has been banned. But as even you yourself has stated, it is implicitly permitted in Islam.
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| | Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 10:59 pm Formerguest waan la socday postingkaada baryahaan, Allaha ajar kaa siiyo difaaca diinteenna, kitaabkeenna iyo Ilaaheenna Aamin
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| | Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:46 am "You just can't help yourself can you." lol "I haven't read your history of revolution yet" read it, and then tell us your *his-story* too.;-) "but reference to slavery - I told you so." lol "Furthermore, note how in "Christian" societies the OBVIOUSLY unethical practice of slavery has been banned." that is not true. christ did not ban and the biblical saying says you are lying. ;-) "But as even you yourself has stated, it is implicitly permitted in Islam." well, again, what do you call prisoners of war, mad mac? ;-)
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| | Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 05:38 am "slavery" has emotive connitaions, mad mac save the rehortic for Christain aid and bondage can appear in many forms, considerthe wage slave, who is free to leave employment when they owes debts on a house, a car, a education? Lets cut away the emotional baggae you guys have from the atlantic slave trade, nothing wrong with slavery inherently, depends on the relationship between the two people invloved. Some marriages work under particularly bad forms of slavery. Others recognise the mutal rights they have over one another, power relationships are always checked only by a concious, ineveitably they are different levls of power between humans, they have to be guidelines to counterblaance this. Basically instead of "yo-yo diets" in which the west binges on mistreatment and explotaion and then abstains (in a specific form only) says 3000 hail marys and all is forgotton, we should have a balanced diet in which different abilities , responsiblities and rights are cordinated and subject to a overriding soverignty. Ya Allah, when will you see the wood for the trees?
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| | Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:52 pm "Lets cut away the emotional baggae you guys have from the atlantic slave trade, nothing wrong with slavery inherently, depends on the relationship between the two people invloved." i think there is something wrong with slavery as there is something wrong with killing. however, when your enemy (the pagan, the christian, the jews) are trying to kill you and your children----because of islam and they want to humilate you and your family, there is nothing wrong the killing they and humilating them (slaving them) too. slavery is never good or accepatable to the slaved as killing is good and never acceptable to the murdered, but killing is allowed as slavery is allowed. ;-) divorce is not good (in fact it is hated), but it is allowed, do you see what i mean? ;-) i mean the divorcing, the killing and the slaving are not haraam always; there is a time these are xalaal. ;-) "marriages work under particularly bad forms of slavery." two people (man and woman) who are married to each other are either always free people----------or they must be both slaves who are married to each other. ;-) "Others recognise the mutal rights they have over one another, power relationships are always checked only by a concious, ineveitably they are different levls of power between humans, they have to be guidelines to counterblaance this." like prisoners of war, right, who have no control of their lives; they must recognise that they are powerless (they are in bondage); they have to be guidelines to control them; they have to be made of them useful to the society; if you are not killing them or exchanging them, are you doing to set them free in order that they come back and try to kill you and humilate you again? ;-) "Ya Allah, when will you see the wood for the trees?" when he stops denying the existance of hell and heaven and the day of judgement. ;-)
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| | Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:19 pm asad i see your points, i was concerned mostly with the semantics of the word "slavery" and the way it is used ideoscycractical you have written nothing too contensious here. I would argue, that being someones slave,could be exactly the same as being someones child, isn't it about who you are treated?. How would i tell if i was someones slave or child, untill i became a adult?(even then my parnets haven't recongised the difference).<smile>. It would be the same soverignty over me.. anyway you see my point? about marraige..if you look i said can "work" under particulary bad forms of marriage, i wasn't refering to their officail status but the de facto reality of the divisons of labour and power relationships within the household. peace my brother
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:57 am "i see your points, i was concerned mostly with the semantics of the word "slavery" and the way it is used ideoscycractical you have written nothing too contensious here." i see your points too, brother. i was just touching the touchy parts about the subject of slavery. no matter how you look at it, slaving a person is never acceptable like the killing is never acceptable unless done in the acts of penalizing the enemies (the jews, christians and pagans) for their acts of killing and humilating the muslims. those slaves who work at homes and eat the same food as the master eats(the so-called the house niggers) rather be not teding to their employer (their owner while doing the cooking, cleaning and other easy chores like a relative of the family may do who does not get paid his or her work at home or the work a free maid (booyaaso) does at home. what makes slavery an acceptable to the slaved is that it is humilating status. sure some slaves enjoy their work and have easy lives doing their job (like the house niggers), but the feild niggers, who do hard labor outside of the home never enjoy their work and their status. evn some slaves (house niggers) in this country are said to revolted and ran away from their owners; others killed slaver owners (their masters) by food poisoning. ;-)
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 06:31 am "about marraige..if you look i said can "work" under particulary bad forms of marriage, i wasn't refering to their officail status but the de facto reality of the divisons of labour and power relationships within the household." sure, an abusive husband may tend to act like an slave master act. on the contrary, though another wife may enjoy her status as a house-wife and not work at home-----while having maids serve and spoon feed her and while her husband busting his *** doing hard labor in the sun 10 to 12 hours a day. ;-)
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 07:37 am About the touchy parts of slavery, uh huh, the atlantic slave trade was one of the most horrendous, disgusting despicable things we have done as human beings .. and other types of slavery can be and usually are very bad. Howeever the atlantic slave trade isn't what defines slavery, the atlantic slave trade was dehumanisation..tahts something altogther different..Now brother Don't get me wrong, i hate slavery, i just aslo hate the three thousand hail mary crew, who point to muaritania and sudan.and act like they ain't never seen slavery before In sudan i heard it is very bad, in mauritania i know even less, so i guess i shouldn't speak so much, and i should explain i do not wish to appear like i am knowldgeable on the topic, just testing the water, let me know if its warm enough for me to come in..... "women having maids and putting feet up" True,however aslo the husband may be a tyrant, and especailly in the arab countries like eygpt work three hours a day pushing around paper on a desk..come home say i have been working all day! and get their wives to do things like cook, clean and look after the kids 24 hours a day and then they get their wifes to do things they have seen on a pornographical channels that beam into the country from God knows where your right it works both ways, i never mentioned which partner could be the slavedriver, but thank you for pointing that side out. It does tend to be the man who is most tyrnical in the house, Women usually have much more Rahma..as Allah (swt) brings Rahma comes from the womb (i think)<smile>
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 10:20 am "Now brother Don't get me wrong, i hate slavery" yes, the one who is been slaved hates more. it is a sad situation to be in, i imagine. oppression is a sad situation to be in too, i imagine. ;-( "In sudan i heard it is very bad" did you read this? http://msanews.mynet.net/~msanews/MSANEWS/199703/19970325.2.html http://msanews.mynet.net/~msanews/MSANEWS/199703/19970325.3.html "True,however aslo the husband may be a tyrant, and especailly in the arab countries" the difference between the arab countries and the west is that, here in the west, they made for the women shelter homes ( safe heaven) where the battered (beat up) wives and their kids run too. ;-( "It does tend to be the man who is most tyrnical in the house, Women usually have much more Rahma..as Allah (swt) brings Rahma comes from the womb (i think)<smile>" women are the way they are because they are the weaker sex. if they had power, they could be like men. ;-). the prophet talked about ( in his last speach) how men should treat women and those who are weak; he talked about how an arab is no better than non-arab and how non-arab is no better than arab. ;-)
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 02:40 pm Common You are nothing if not unpredictable. I can understand your joining a bunch of hate-filled, power hungry beardos out of protest,against the western culture in which you grew up, (OK I know said you don't hate the West, but I think if you found a group of Trotskyites before you found the Robe-and-the-beard bunch, I think you would now be standing near subways waving a red flag) but I am REALLY disappointed in your ill-fated defense of slavery. No volume of your disinginous philosophising can hide what you said. Human behaviour is complicated, but there are some things which we really should not try to justify-under any circumstances. And in my view is slavery is one of them. Your comparison of sweatshop wages with slavery clearly shows your misunderstanding of what slavery was really all about. Common, there is something truly endearing about you and everything you said so far has been crazy, challenging, funny, irritating, mad and sometimes truly inspirational- but never stupid. Except now. Explain or retract.
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 03:54 pm galool. It seems, you came to the realization that it is futile and would make you look like an ANT if you continued your void-of-facts-rhetorics against the Quran. So, you chose to resort to the common behaviours of ISLAMOPHOBICS and their cheap shots at muslims since they can do nothing about the mighty Quran. " I can understand your joining a bunch of hate-filled," Speaking of joining the hate-filled guys, THERE WAS THIS AMERICAN GUY WHO JOINED ISLAM TODAY at the mosque, You would have seen the radiant faces of muslims and the jubilation when the brother declared the SHAHADA. I was at the back of the mosque and couldn't hug him but wished good luck for him in islam. " beardos out of protest,against the western culture in which you grew up". Well, We disagree with the lifestyle that doesn't fit our beliefs. It shows willingness on our part to stand up for what we cherish most and you hate most. If that is how you describe protest SO BE IT. Blessed be the protest.
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 03:59 pm Asad That must be the longest posting in cyberspace! Touched a raw nerve have I? You know sometime ago, FG threatened me that he will laugh me off the forums(although to be honest with you, I can't see FG laughing under any circumstances, except perhaps when he dies and DOESN'T meet his maker as he hoped). I think you decided to bore me off the forums. I am (truly) falling asleep now. Catch you later.
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:17 pm "Asad That must be the longest posting in cyberspace!" lol "Touched a raw nerve have I?" you wish. ;-) "I think you decided to bore me off the forums." is this an excuse or what? ;-) "I am (truly) falling asleep now." lol "Catch you later." looking forward to see you when you wake up from sleep. ;-)
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:27 pm GALOOL. "although to be honest with you, I can't see FG laughing under any circumstances" LOL!. That was funny. By the way, don't feel threatened. I was invited by your excellency. Remember The-ignorant-head-cutters-slogan you thought was impressive?. "except perhaps when he dies and DOESN'T meet his maker as he hoped)" I am smart enough not to gamble on my future and follow the desires of my soul. Though I might not be that righteous, I struggle with myself daily to stay intouch with islamic reality and that there is light at the end of the tunnel of uncertainty. Furthermore, when I read these verses in the QURAN: "25:27. The Day that the wrong-doer will bite at his hands, he will say, "Oh! Would that I had taken a (straight) path with the Messenger! 28. "Ah! Woe is me! Would that I had never taken such a one for a friend! 29. "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah) after it had come to me! Ah! The Satan is but a traitor to man!" I know, it is worth to believe in rather than deny. May Allah grant us his CERTAINTY. Stay cool and don't fume too much hatred towards us lest you get a heart attack.
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 11:02 pm GUys please what is FG? can any one explain tome? thanks all
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| | Friday, November 03, 2000 - 11:12 pm need help. It is the short version or the appraviation of FORMERGUEST. Got it?.
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| | Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 01:18 am A salaam aleikum Galool can i both explain and retract?. Firstly i should reiterate that i am not knowldgeable, on the subject and asad is right, becasue i share a colour with the people, who in recent history are most identifiable as "slaves" this get a little misty when my emotions start pounding. Okay none of us has defined what slavery is and isn't, so we may not even be talking about the same thing. I certainly wasn't hoping to be "defending slavery"which re reading my post is a valid conclusion you could make. I guess when making a point..i can make rash statments about the opposite view. The main assertions i was trying to make are. 1. The Atlantic Slave trade and former types of slavery were different. 2.Slavery can appear under different circumstances, and masqerade as something other than slavery. So in fact i should perhaps stay away from Sudan and Maurtania, altogther I should and am retracting from any notion that slavery is good. Aslo in my eyes it isn't. But I don't see a difference between calling some one a slave and treating them like a slave. and I see a economical basis for the abolution of the slave trade in the west, not a moral one and see the manefestations of the same type of thinking in differnt forms in present society. Hasn't history been about the removal of abuses for the black man rather than his emancipation? and therefore get upset with hypocratical attitudes. Sahib, my brothers sold me for bits of coloured glass and mirrors which reflected the image they sold, ironic, my image their image.I am very hurt by this(i do not admit this much) and the racist attitudes that prevail in todays world, i spent a great part of my youth, thinking about this issues, its called the "encounter stage" when you first experience white racism (sorry when you imagine i could of been out side train stations with trotskites , i was busy growing and twisting my hair in a political mannor, reading and writing african poetry and travelling around north america,with a radical friend, teaching black folk about the significance of colour blocks,colonisation, slavery etc etc. listening to bob marley and burning incense great period of my life!, although am very embarssed that i wasn't praying..or doing any other basic islamic duties). But slavery isn't my burden to bear (i have my share), i refuse to dennounce slavery so lightheartly, becasue that is letting the people who commited those acts, of genocide, mutliation, murder, infanticide, degradation, dehuminaisation get away with so much, becasue they were "slaves" and that is what you do to slaves. I don't agree.slaves aboard the ships crossing the atlantic used to imagine that white people were fond of their flesh and were going to eat them.where did they get such ideas..that they were to be eaten, surely slaves are not eaten..this was something else i don't think that is what you do to slaves, and it wasn't what you do to slaves was it? Secondly, slavery was abolished becasue countries, particlury England needed markets to sell all the wealth it upsurped from the third world, (in the form of processed commodities)so it fought for these people do be given some money.Slowly this idea became benifical for all..a "win win" type situation The modern day condition in which time is divided in between producing and consuming and lesuire time- so you don't go crazy, is based on the same principles, you are in the eyes of this civilisation worth what you can produce and consume.Prostitutes are valued above mothers, becasue they are wage earners. Now just for the sake of it..i will go into why this system is not sustainable.. the short way.1. Its just plain wrong and expoltative. 2.Capitalism needs way more lubricate, casue people are getting poorer and production is outstripping consumtion. ie we are getting paid less..and working harder,for reasons of reinvestment and market freedom so in comes credit cards , personal loans etc etc and the whole of America is in fact highly morgaged, in every facet of life.!If these loans were called in..bye bye booming american economy. You are not in post modern society..seen as a human being in anyway shape or form, it is so shocking, your minimum time calculated to spend with your family is designed and you are refered to as either a consumer or producer..isn't that offensive? okay sorry to go wayward. I hope you get what i am saying, economical nothing has changed, on the surface it has, but if you look at the world economically, you would realise that the same values , the same ideas, are persistant, sure they are good peole out there, but they are not running the world. peace my brother ps: Communism is a good critic of capitalism, thats all, nothing more nopthing less. it can't encompass all i have to know and need to know in this life, besides, they are the by and large the same as capitalist, kuffar.<smile>
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| | Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 01:27 am oh another reason why its not sustaiable, you value protsitutes over mothersm, who's gonna have your babies?.. add that to a aging population due to health care standards and you in tr5ouble..in comes immigration..in the thousands they are bebating, fortress europe is gone. if capital and information can moce freely.. they need humans now..albeit a specific kind now. But basically immigration into europe will radically change the % of people of differnt clour, differnt religions etc in europe, they realisng this now, and are stuck between a rock and a hard place...and all this is just how to keep their economys grwoing at the l;evel they are growing at now..and you know what greedy capitlaists are like, they always wnat more growth. Problme.. europe is utterly racist..hmmm civil wars all over europe soon anyone?
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| | Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 11:01 am Common Jekyll and Hyde again. Thanks for changing your mind about slavery, although it is a qualified change. You confirmed what I always suspected. Your immerssion into politicized Islam is for you at least a form of rebellion against racist, capitalist western society, not very different from the way African-Americans convert to Islam although they know next to nothing about what they are letting themselves in for. It is a complete tosh to say England prohibited slavery for economic reasons. Firstly, England was not the first European country to prohibit Slavery. That honour goes to Denmark. Secondly, some major English cities on the Atlantic coast were totally devastated by banning slavery. To my knowledge, some of these cities never recovered. The reasons were much more complicated than pure economics. They had to do with birth of liberal politics, increasing public awareness about the evils of slavery and the support provided(to the abolitionists) by some major personalities in the politico-economic establishment in Europe. I don't know where you got hold of this mother/prostitute argument. I have a lot of respect for prostitutes. It must take a lot of courage and desperation to walk the streets and sell your body to all-comers. In poor countries like Somalia, women turn to prostitution out of sheer destitution. They have to become hookers or starve. It is as simple as that. These women deserve our sympathy and support if we can, not our narrow-minded self-righteusness and outright cruelty. Also, don't you think prostitutes provide an important social function by providing sex to lots of inadequate men who cannot get it any other way? Without the kind-hearted hookers, I think we could have had loads of frustrated rapists and murderers roaming the streets at night. Our daughters and sisters are a lot safer because of the services provided by the hookers you so obviously despise. Keep sane.
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| | Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 02:39 pm "the way African-Americans convert to Islam although they know next to nothing about what they are letting themselves in for." you say these african american muslims did not know what they were letting themselves in for when they converted to islam as if they were stupid, primitive, unsophisticated or naive. ;-). tell me this, galool, if you know, can you tell me if you were in the heart of those african amerian who converted to islam and if their conversion was not sincere? ;-)
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| | Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 02:45 pm galool, what about the eurupean-amerians who convert to islam, do they know anyting about what they are letting themselves in for and are they smart, sophisticated, not primitive when they accept islam? ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 01:12 am Galool. "complete tosh".lol. gives away your whereabouts so extravagantly. Okay when the leaves fall in autumn, they appear new, but they travalled the same journey last year. Switerland, the great neutral country of the world, has made a killing pumping arms across the world and by extention has been one of the most violent counties in the world, why is this relevant.. i just wish to highlight the way things can appear one thing and be another. In Economics someone always loses and someone always gains, like the devaluation of the pound thing, for the manufatorers it would be cool, casue they could compete in internationla markest, but the governemnt is on the side of the exchange rate, seeing as most fo the british industry is geared towards services- investment banking insurance etc. So the north suffers while the south prospers. So it is my fault, perhas i should have explained, although the basis of the abolution of slavery was economical, it was a political decision as to which areas of the economy were to be prioritized and which were not, so you are right cities like bristol and liverpool never quite recovered and were literally built on the slave trade as was teh great western railway systems( a train i have to take to travel inbetween london and school) and milions of other things in England. But it would be wrong to assume that England lost out economically due to the abolution of the slave trade, it just shifted its priorities, and i agree there were other factors invloved, including theories on the maturity of the working clas cotton loomers in manchestor supporting american cotton slave revolts even though this would affect their jobs. and okay.... arguably <smile>the "birth" of liberal politics, however the politics of the time was prttey silly and it would be naive to think, a love for the negro burst into the heart of habus corpus lawyers.Due to their actions, now i will not be so dogmatic to assume that no one in England was concerned about the Negro,i am not aware of the contents of their hearts but think about Maxine Molyneux, when she speaks of pratical and strategic gender interests and apply this to 18 century england, these were not pratical interests for the negros, but strategic ineterests for the english. Denmark i have no clue about, but i imagine given its environement, and the prodomience of free trade as a popular theory, i am willing to assume strategic interests also, unless you can convince me othewise, i doubt they had any thing as large a stake as england to lose from the slave trade and more to gain.. if they hadn't abolioshed slavery sooner, i would have thought them fools With regards to prostitutes, while i have not checked the official beardo line on this one, i will ignore your fantasies of my self rightousness, i agree a lot of religious people fall into the trap of self righousness(certainly not all), i prefer humanitarians mostly, even though they might be going to hell and have sterotypes about me. Prostitues, you are right, mostly do not chose that life, for want of sexual pleasure, it is a desperate sistuation. I have walked through amsterdams red light district and seen women trapped in red boxs, it was one of the saddest things i have seen, a haunting image it remains with me. I don't have respect for their proffesion, i have respect for the women..can you notice the distinction, , i have sympathy for them, which i do not particluary have for kerb crawlers. i do not consider being more supcepibale to rape and beastial desires a choice, no women would i belive choose protistion over a different profession. Our daughters and sisters are not safe exactly because when you create a situation where women can be observed as purley sexual objects it increase the risk of them being attacked. I don't make a distinction between hookers and nuns as this society does, but say that women all dserve the same level of respect.I think the social function they preform has a negative impact on their lives, they are at danger of being killed and are prone to violent attack. Walaal, truly of all the things you ahve imagined of me this one is the worst, i do not despise them at all. A companion of the Prohept Mohamed (pbuh)once contorted his face at blood which fell on him from an adulturous women who was stoned to death, and was chastised and told to not wipe it off, as she was going to heaven. How could i despise so many women i do not know?..and have no rahma for them..do you have such a low opinion of me?. What i was saying, is that when you value protititues more than mothers, more mothers will become protituites, how is that in any way a good thing considering the life chances around for the average protitute? lastly.. i am jeckle and hyde?lol.. you seem to fluctate between not wanted to take the wideyed dreams away from a young muslim and determined to expose my yearnings as a response to wider socitey. I did say i am not easily explainable, although i almost offered you the conclusions you have made on a plate with tales of my younger days. I will throw a couple of spanners in the works..and see if your theory floats. I was quite an Islamic child, when my sisters used to steal things from the shop i used to tell them to retuirn it,when we used to do stuff behind my motehrs back, i would feel guilty and tell my Mother i used to say La il ha il la lah and alhumdillilah and others prayers every night with my sisters. I had a islamic concious, i used to encourage my half muslim friend not to eat sauages and would fast even though my mother would say ..you can eat i will not tell anyone <smiling at remembering the thought>.. when i became a teenager.,.i went a litte wayward.. and have alhumdulilah have bene trying to become a better muslims ever since. I am very Political,howver my immesrion into islam was for very very perosnal reasons, i was hurt by a lot of things and realised i didn't love this world at all, i have very little connection with this earth, apart form my family, the ummmah and the humans on it, i feel a vacumm that can never be filled. Okay!.. have fun with that information and lets see, if we can whip up a personal trauma theory to adeqautly sum up my islamic values. peace isn't sainty the absence of insainty?, like realism is the absence of idealism, when things start making sense, i will perhaps be at lost for words and be just marvelling at the beuty of it. liek when we see a good act, it correlate as a beutiful act, casue we recognise the beuty in it. Allah (swt) loves the beauty makers. wasalaam
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 03:33 am COMMON MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND ....U SEEM TO BE LIKE A HEADLESS CHICKEN/ FLIP FLOP! BROTHER HAVE SOME PRINCIPLE, KNOW WHAT THEY ARE! AND THINK CAREFULLY, STICK TO THEM! OK PLZ DONT SAY THE HOOKERS ON THE STREET DONT HAVE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS, THEY COULD FIND A RESPECTABLE LOW PAID JOB (BE FACTORY WORKERS/CLEANERS ETC). I AM SURE THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER OPTIONS SO PLZ N REMEMBER ISLAM PROHIBITS SELLING YOUR BODY. SO COMMON IF YOUR A MUSLIM,PLZ TRY TO STICK TO ISLAMIC MORALS!!
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 04:48 am "With regards to prostitutes, while i have not checked the official beardo line on this one" lol-----?official beardo line. you sound like galool. he is right in her assertions of calling people here "beardos", right? ;-) "i agree a lot of religious people fall into the trap of self righousness(certainly not all), i prefer humanitarians mostly" did you say you prefer humanitarians over religious people? can you explain to me what is humanitarains are good at that the religious people are not? can a religious person (a muslim) be a humanitarian? were the prophets of Allah humanitarain? can a humanitarain be an ethiest?;-) "I was quite an Islamic child" lol------>was an islamic child. ;-) "Okay!.. have fun with that information and lets see, if we can whip up a personal trauma theory to adeqautly sum up my islamic values." looks like a setup scenario to me. ;-). also, when he (galool) sums it up the islamic values (not yours), we would like to hear his (un-islamic) values too so we can compare between the two. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:06 am explaing what humitarians are good at that religious people arn't.. they are good at getting along with me..which was my only point. A regilious person can be a humaitarian, and i imagine the rightly guided companions of the Prophet were humanitarians muslim sister i am sorry if my posts have upset you, i will try and be consistant in my thoughts asad i am sorry for refering to Islamic values as mine. you both have done well to point these things out, may have done better to hide my faults and inshlallah Allah(swt) would have hiden yours on the day of judgement, inshllah Allah(swt) still will
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:38 am "explaing what humitarians are good at that religious people arn't.. they are good at getting along with me..which was my only point." to me, i preffer religious muslim person over any humanitarain person who is not religious (who is not a muslim). ;-). a believer who is religious is much better than any humanitarian ethiest. ;-) "A regilious person can be a humaitarian" a religious person is a humanitrain, but he does his or her humanitarain acts because of Allah; he or she does not help or get a long people for the sake of it. a religious person does things to please Allah; not people. if a person's attention is not to please Allah in his or her acts towards his fellow human being, then his or her acts do not have value in the side of Allah. ;-) "and i imagine the rightly guided companions of the Prophet were humanitarians" that is right. ;-) "you both have done well to point these things out, may have done better to hide my faults and inshlallah Allah(swt) would have hiden yours on the day of judgement, inshllah Allah(swt) still will" insha-Allah to that, but the good thing is that, no harm is done. the name common (as the name asad) is faceless; we are already hidden. ;-). by the way, when i point out things (by questioning you) my intention is not to find faults in you.;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:39 am "explaing what humitarians are good at that religious people arn't.. they are good at getting along with me..which was my only point." to me, i preffer religious muslim person over any humanitarain person who is not religious (who is not a muslim). ;-). a believer who is religious is much better than any humanitarian ethiest. ;-) "A regilious person can be a humaitarian" a religious person is a humanitrain, but he does his or her humanitarain acts because of Allah; he or she does not help or get a long people for the sake of it. a religious person does things to please Allah; not people. if a person's attention is not to please Allah in his or her acts towards his fellow human being, then his or her acts do not have value in the side of Allah. ;-) "and i imagine the rightly guided companions of the Prophet were humanitarians" that is right. ;-) "you both have done well to point these things out, may have done better to hide my faults and inshlallah Allah(swt) would have hiden yours on the day of judgement, inshllah Allah(swt) still will" insha-Allah to that, but the good thing is that, no harm is done. the name common (as the name asad) is faceless; we are already hidden. ;-). by the way, when i point out things (by questioning you) my intention is not to find faults in you.;-).
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 06:31 am religious person =mumin? sometimes it does not
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 06:57 am a mumin is a believer and can be a practicing muslim or a non-practicing muslim-----the practicing muslim is the religious one. there is a verse in the Qur'an where Allah is saying to the believers (the muminiin): "O you believed, believe"-----meaning practice. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 08:32 am Common...the slave trade is being replaced by even worse monster. I believe this whole globalization trends that great economists all over the world, such as Alan Greenspan of the US Fed reserve and Fisher of the world bank, are gloring about its fantacies is worse than the slave trade of the 17th century. At least, that affected a certain portion of population but this...everyone has to suffer. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 09:04 am Asad Mumin is not a beleiver who is not Practising...oki Mmumin=The muslim who is practising in every way of Islam..... warning!!!!!Plze don,t tray to came up whit your So-called never-ending argument, whit out any Proof!!!!! Peace
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 09:49 am "Mumin is not a beleiver who is not Practising...oki" i said a mumin (a believer) can be a practicing muslim. a mumin can also be a non-practicing muslim. ;-) "Mmumin=The muslim who is practising in every way of Islam" that is not true. ;-) not all muminuun are practicing and successful in the side of Allah. read the suratul-qad af-laxal muminuun-- where Allah is telling us the muminiin----who are successful in the day of judgement. ;-). "warning!!!!!Plze don,t tray to came up whit your So-called never-ending argument, whit out any Proof!!!!!" i gave you the proof. what do you think this means: "yaa ayuhal ladiina aamanuu, aamanuu"? ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 09:59 am "Mumin is not a beleiver who is not Practising...oki" anonymous, are you saying a mumin (a believer--a musliim)-----who is not praying----is not a beleiver (a muslim)? ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 10:46 am asad, It will be a great thing from your part if you dedicate yourself to the study of the Arabic Language. I believe al-iman is the highest value of islam. Mumin can't be a non-practicing muslim. But we can find muslims who practise all the pillars of islam or who don't practise them. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 11:18 am "It will be a great thing from your part if you dedicate yourself to the study of the Arabic Language." that is really my goal. ;-) "believe al-iman is the highest value of islam." but since you studied the arabic language, could you please tell us what this means: "yaa ayuhal ladiina aamanuu, aamanuu". if the people are already muslims (believers in Allah and His prophet) and they are said to be believers, why they are told to believe? ;-) "But we can find muslims who practise all the pillars of islam or who don't practise them." are you saying that those who do not practice all the pillars of islam are not muniniin?---if that is the case, can you read suratul muminiin and educate us--- which muminiin are successful and which are not in that surah------qad-af-la-xal-muminuun, al-la-diina-hum..........? ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 11:39 am abti, what in the above quote u don't understand? "yaa ayuhal ladiina aamanu ..." why don't u continue... "are you saying those who don't practise all pillars of islam are not mumins?" I think i said that. "If that is the case, can you read surrat almuminon and educate us" I thought you were the one who said that this is not the place to get islamic knowledge. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 11:59 am "abti" yes, ina abti. "what in the above quote u don't understand? i do understand the qoute, but since you know the arabic better than me, i thought you might educate me. ;-) "yaa ayuhal ladiina aamanu ..." why don't u continue..." i did continue, but you left out the part i included. you left aamanuu intentionally---the part i was pointing out to you. ;-) -----are you saying those who don't practise all pillars of islam are not muminiins?---- "I think i said that." then, you are wrong and suratul qad-af-la-xal-muminuun" says you are wrong. ;-). Allah tells us in the ayah which muminuun are the ones successful and which muminuun are not. ALA-DIINA-HUM. "I thought you were the one who said that this is not the place to get islamic knowledge." i was asking you to educate me the arabic language, not the islamic language. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 12:18 pm "abti" yes, ina abti. "what in the above quote u don't understand? i do understand the qoute, but since you know the arabic better than me, i thought you might educate me. ;-) "yaa ayuhal ladiina aamanu ..." why don't u continue..." i did continue, but you left out the part i included. you left aamanuu intentionally---the part i was pointing out to you. ;-) -----are you saying those who don't practise all pillars of islam are not muminiins?---- "I think i said that." then, you are wrong and suratul qad-af-la-xal-muminuun" says you are wrong. ;-). Allah tells us in the ayah which muminuun are the ones successful and which muminuun are not. ALA-DIINA-HUM. "I thought you were the one who said that this is not the place to get islamic knowledge." i was asking you to educate me the arabic language, not the islamic knowlege. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 12:40 pm asad, Listen, there are many verses that starts by yaa ayuhal ladiin amanu...in case u don't know that. So, which one among those you are talking about. I can give you this quote "yaa ayuhal ladiin amanu, aminu" here amanu is not as aminu. amanu...comes from iman which is faith. aminu comes from al-aman which is peace. "I m asking you to educate me of the arabic language" Still, this is not its place. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 12:50 pm "Listen, there are many verses that starts by yaa ayuhal ladiin amanu...in case u don't know that. So, which one among those you are talking about." the one i'm telling you does not start with yaa ayuhal aldiin aamanu. i told you it starts with qad-af-la-xal-muminuun and then it tells you which muminiin are the suceesseful ones and which are not. ;-) by the way, are you telling me you have never read this ayah and do not know where it is located in the Qur'an? ;-) "I can give you this quote "yaa ayuhal ladiin amanu, aminu" here amanu is not as aminu. amanu...comes from iman which is faith. aminu comes from al-aman which is peace." hakima, can you traslate this into english or into somali and let's see what "yaa ayuhal ladiin amanu, aminu" means? ;-) -----I m asking you to educate me of the arabic language, not an islamic knowledge--- "Still, this is not its place." if you say so. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 01:10 pm "yaa ayuhal amanu, aminu" ie those who believe (amanu) be peaceful (aminu) "qad aflax almuominoun..." are you saying that these three words were only mentioned in just one place in the quran. It only means the believers had succeeded...okay...then what...? peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 01:57 pm -----yaa ayuhal amanu, aminu----- "ie those who believe (amanu) be peaceful (aminu)" i thought you said you studied the arabic and knew what you were talking about! it seems to me that you do not know what you are talking about. it is better then you ask you rimaam what that verse means, okay, sister? ;-) "qad aflax almuominoun..." are you saying that these three words were only mentioned in just one place in the quran" the reason i asked you this question before, i suspected that you have not read this ayah before, but now it seems you have never heard of that verse! the question was: "by the way, are you telling me you have never read this ayah and do not know where it is located in the Qur'an?:-) "It only means the believers had succeeded...okay...then what...?" again, you intentionally left the part i wanted you to see which i high lighted for you earlier. ALA-DIINA-HUM. the verse reads this way: "successful indeed are the believers; those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who offer their prayers with all solemnity and full submissiveness; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who turn away from al-laghw (dirty, false, bad talk, falsehood and all that Allah has forbidden; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who pay the zakat............(ALA-DIINA-HUM)......." so, hakima, do you offer your prayers with khushuuc wa khuduuc all the times and do you not sometimes tell false things and do forbidden things------if yes, they aren't you still a mumina who sins? ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 02:21 pm asad, Take the above quote that i wrote to a person who speaks arabic. If he didn't explain it to you the way i did. Then, you are right the arabic that i was taught for the past 18yrs was not indeed arabic. "alaa deen houm" do you think by writing that it tells me what you have in mind. Remember your famous sentence...i don't read people's minds, i just read what they wrote. I m reading what you wrote "alaa deen houm" means nothing but those who are. And, i asked you previously to continue ur sentence..but u never bothered. And, still a muomin can't be a non-practicing muslim, you really need to take Tafsiir lessons. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 03:22 pm ----"ie those who believe (amanu) be peaceful (aminu)---- "Take the above quote that i wrote to a person who speaks arabic. If he didn't explain it to you the way i did. Then, you are right the arabic that i was taught for the past 18yrs was not indeed arabic." well, i asked you to go to your imaam and ask that ayah. if you ask him, he will tell you that your explanation is wrong. you see, all the mufasiriin translate the verse different than you and they studied the arabic and the Qur'an together, did you? ;-) the verse reads this way: "O you who believe! believe in Allah and His messenger and the Book He sent down to His messenger and the Book He sent down formerly; and he who disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers and the Last Day, has strayed far away". if we take your explanation which says: "ie those who believe (amanu) be peaceful (aminu)", then, what are the believers be beaceful with------Allah and His messenger and His books? ;-) this does not make sense. ;-). so try to ask your imaam and then come back to here to report what he said if you want to, okay? ;-) read one more time, "O you who BELIEVE! BELEIVE in Allah and His messenger and the Book He sent down to His messenger....." ""alaa deen houm" do you think by writing that it tells me what you have in mind. Remember your famous sentence...i don't read people's minds, i just read what they wrote. I m reading what you wrote "alaa deen houm" means nothing but those who are. And, i asked you previously to continue ur sentence..but u never bothered." we are not talking about what is in my mind; we are talking about what is in the Qura'n. you claim to know the Qur'an and when i pointed out the verse which is famous, you go amnesia; it is like you have never read it before. ;-) "And, still a muomin can't be a non-practicing muslim" again, you have ignored the questions i asked you which would have helped you understand things. i can not help you if you keep ignoring the questions i ask you, hakima. ;-) once again, can you answer this question: "successful indeed are the believers (muniniiin) those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who offer their prayers with all solemnity and full submissiveness; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who turn away from al-laghw (dirty, false, bad talk, falsehood and all that Allah has forbidden; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who pay the zakat............(ALA-DIINA-HUM)......." now, hakima, do you offer your prayers with khushuuc wa khuduuc all the times and do you not sometimes tell false things and do some forbidden things sometimes------if yes, then aren't you still a mumina who sins? ;-) "you really need to take Tafsiir lessons." lol
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 03:53 pm abti, Believe it or not i did go to schools where teaching Quran was part of our core subjects and yes i studied them both. and still i m telling you to take this quote to anyone who knows arabic. "yaa ayuhal laadeen amanu, aminu" Plus, i don't have any doubts about my education, i was taught by the Best,unlike you. I recommend you to do more readings not just Quran but philosophy as well which you thought it was a joke when i was discussing it with you earlier :-) However, I am not claiming that i do know all the knowledge of Quran n Hadith, like the way u r impling about urself. mahadsanid :-) peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 04:14 pm "abti, Believe it or not i did go to schools where teaching Quran was part of our core subjects and yes i studied them both" so you admit that the mufasiriin who studied the Qur'an and the arabic together extensively are right and you are wrong? ;-) "and still i m telling you to take this quote to anyone who knows arabic. "yaa ayuhal laadeen amanu, aminu" the quote is Quranic and i showed you what the experts say. they disagree with you. they did their homework; you did not do, right? ;-) "Plus, i don't have any doubts about my education, i was taught by the Best,unlike you." i showed you what the best said about the ayah and they disagree with you. is not there really some doubts in your mind that you are wrong and they are right? ;-) "I recommend you to do more readings not just Quran but philosophy as well which you thought it was a joke when i was discussing it with you earlier :-)" i do not remember you talkingwith you about philosophy and making jokes about it, but when it comes to Qur'aninc ayats, other philosophies are out of the door. ;-). maybe they teach you Qur'an together with other philosophies, right? ;-) "However, I am not claiming that i do know all the knowledge of Quran n Hadith, like the way u r impling about urself." i didn't think you know it all----that is why i told you to ask your imaan. ;-) "mahadsanid :-)" adigaa mudan, abti. ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:40 pm And, you do not know it either. But i do know i know more than you know. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:48 pm Galol You and anyone who disbelieves are bound to hell You laugh, you will roast in fire you wish, you were a believer but, because you are stupid, you are your own enemy. Save your self, and stop denying, your rear can't sit on flames
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 05:58 pm "And, you do not know it either. But i do know i know more than you know." yes, i do not know, but if you knew you know yourself, you would have answered what i asked you: aren't you still one of the mumininiin whenever you fail to follow what Allah ordered you to do and whenever you do sins? ;-) "successful indeed are the believers (muniniiin) those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who offer their prayers with all solemnity and full submissiveness; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who turn away from al-laghw (dirty, false, bad talk, falsehood and all that Allah has forbidden; and those (ALA-DIINA-HUM) who pay the zakat............(ALA-DIINA-HUM)......."
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 06:49 pm Asad, If you are arguing for the sake of argument itself, believe me i can excel you. But, al-iman is reaching the higest value of belief in Allah. Do you understand, it is the Highest Level. So, how come you are expecting from a person that has known truth and felt its real meaning to disobey Allah and commit a sin! Anyone can be a muslim but not anyone can be a muomin. A moumin can't be and will not be a non-practising muslim. No way. Can you please program your mind on understanding what you are reading. peace...
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 07:24 pm "Asad, If you are arguing for the sake of argument itself, believe me i can excel you." i'm not here to excel anything; i'm here to get my point across. i leave you with the exceling.;-) "But, al-iman is reaching the higest value of belief in Allah. Do you understand, it is the Highest Level." and do you think you and i have this hightest level of iman? ;-) "So, how come you are expecting from a person that has known truth and felt its real meaning to disobey Allah and commit a sin!" i do not know about you, but i commit sin. "Anyone can be a muslim but not anyone can be a muomin. A moumin can't be and will not be a non-practising muslim. Can you please program your mind on understanding what you are reading." i understand that every commits sins. the sahaba (included abu bakar, cumar, cusman and ali) committed sins and they were practicing muminiin, were they not? if you are saying that you (hakima) do not commit sin, then you must be a prophetesses or something who reached the hightest level of iman, better than the sahaaba. ;-) ;-)
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| | Monday, November 06, 2000 - 11:22 pm asad, Don't put words into my mouth. No one is perfect except Allah. But, please don't say a muomin could be a non-practising muslim. Definitely, i can argue that the sahaba some of them did things that most of muslims at their time didn't approve such as Usman ibn cafan being so favorite to his own clan n giving them high posts in his dawlah which eventually led to his murder and Ali for not avenging for Usman's murder and eventually leading to his own death. But i can't say that was sin rather political differences. But what is sin according to ur own definition? and what sins did Umar al-faruq did? Masha-allah, the guy was almost to complete when he became a muslim (please read his life biography). peace...
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 12:43 am Hakima "I thought you were the one who said that this is not the place to get islamic knowledge. " Ye he is the same one.who has been keep telling us is not a place, yet looking for knowlage from here....but what can I say we will forgive him and tell him things he don,t know.in a sake of Allah!!!!!!!! "A moumin can't be and will not be a non-practising muslim. No way" I agree whit you sis 100%. Asad you talking about commiting Sin.....I don,t think any one commit Sin more than you cammit from here....you said many times you don,t Islam....at same time you traying to Give wrong answer.....any one who want some knowlage about Islam.... If you don,t know what MUMin means .........are you too ashame to say I don,t know? that will save you from Hell!!! How about the person who askl........if a Man can Rape his women? do you remember what was your Answer?..ppl here want know something about Islam...so if you can,t help plze don,t confuse them..... Any way you are not going to listen my advice.only thing I can do........i will leave you To Allah (swt)........Islam is not Game Asad!!!! You said Earlier I want put my Points across!!!!!!!!!what Points do you have here?? how many ppl told you they can,t understand your Points???/..so could you told me who u traying your points go across?????? on Elians???...LOl peace .
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 04:24 am "Don't put words into my mouth. i didn't put words into your mouth. "But, please don't say a muomin could be a non-practising muslim." well, when a mumin sins, he or she is not practicing islam, right? ;-) "Definitely, i can argue that the sahaba some of them did things that most of muslims at their time didn't approve" but the point is that they were still muminiins who had the hightest iman while doiing things that most of muslims at their time didn't approve of, right? ;-) "But what is sin according to ur own definition?" sin is doing anything that Allah does not approve of and no person is free from sinning. "and what sins did Umar al-faruq did?" are you saying umar was sinless? ;-) hakima, let me ask you this again: when a mumin does sin, did he or she stop being a mumin? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 04:53 am "Ye he is the same one.who has been keep telling us is not a place" yes, this is not the place to learn islam, anonymous. "yet looking for knowlage from here" she said she knows arabic better. I was not asking her to an islamic knowledge as you requested me to teach on here. i told to you to go to the learn people in islam. i told you that i do not know islam. ;-) "but what can I say we will forgive him and tell him things he don,t know.in a sake of Allah!!!!!!!!" lol---->we will forgive him. ;-) ""A moumin can't be and will not be a non-practising muslim. No way" I agree whit you sis 100%." anonymous, are you not one of the muminiin and if you are, do you practice your religion 100%? "Asad you talking about commiting Sin.....I don,t think any one commit Sin more than you cammit from here. you said many times you don,t Islam" i never said i do not commit sin. i admitted that i commit sins, but you as a mumina, when you commit sins, are you practicing the religion? ;-) "at same time you traying to Give wrong answer." what was the questions? ;-) "any one who want some knowlage about Islam...." i said it is better that you seek islami knowledge else where, not here. ;-) "If you don,t know what MUMin means .........are you too ashame to say I don,t know? that will save you from Hell!!!" i know that you will not answer me this question in order to know what mumin is: if you and hakima say that you are muminiin and you adimit that you commit sins, are you (as muminiins) practicing the religion while sinning? ;-) "How about the person who askl........if a Man can Rape his women? do you remember what was your Answer? "ppl here want know something about Islam...so if you can,t help plze don,t confuse them" " the question was not "if a man can rape his women", anonymous. ;-) i'm not confusing people. they are confusing themselves when they can not even know what the question was. i can not help people like that. the question was "CAN A MAN RAPE HIS WIFE IF THEY ARE MARRIED?". ;-) "Any way you are not going to listen my advice.only thing I can do........i will leave you To Allah (swt)........Islam is not Game Asad!!!!" yes, islam is not a game. islam is a serious business and the best place to learn and know islma is not here. in fact, if you think you will learn islam here, you are kidding to yourself. most of the things people say here are not islamic as they would appear to you. ;-) "You said Earlier I want put my Points across" yes. "what Points do you have here??" the points you are responding to. ;-) "how many ppl told you they can,t understand your Points?? so could you told me who u traying your points go across?????? on Elians???...LOl" lol---->elians. ;-) anonymous, are you an alien to me (an stranger--unknown person). ;-) if you can not understand my points, then is that my fault? do you think i came here to cater people's needs. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 05:51 am lol @ asad. You are giving me a lesson of how to understand men -----> Thanks :-) Walaal walaahi adigu waxaad taahay qoof very funny aah :-) peace...
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 05:55 am A salaam aleikum Dear brothers and sisters Can i try and help Hakima and Asad, reconcile their differing opinions. From reading the posts i think they may be a misunderstanding..a break down of communication..i think i know what Hakima saying..but Asad has assumed something, which no one has cleared up..so for my sake if you could any of you could answer this..then you would be both doing me a favour and grasping the core issue?. Okay Asad seems to have the opinion that someone can know if they are a mumin or not?..he said for example "Hakima you sin..but you consider yourself a mumin".. can someone know if they are a mumin?.. i am not sure. For example.. Hakima is right.. if you reach a higher state of iman, you will not be very likely to sin. Also Asad is right, the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) used to ask for forgiveness 15 times a day.. and he was the best of mankind. So.. i think...and i stress i could be wrong big time here. Is that we all need to be covered by the grace of Allah for our sins..and we cannot know who is a mumin or not. Thus if we cannot identify a mumin, then whether he is "practising" or not is irrelevant.Seeing as Allah alone knows what is in his/her heart. Of course to have such a high level of iman..and not be in fear of Allah (swt)avoid things like prayer is very unlikey ,howver if we all truly had knowledge of Allah, we would not eat or have any sexual appetite, so it is in some ways a blessing for us on this earth.and but Allah knows best. Did i say something wrong here people..let me know!. Hakima. dear sister I think you are right, globalisation..has some very bad conceqeunces..these people, have no concept of anything but money,they invest in human shares and tear through flesh for dividends, they don't recognise humans or nautral resources as anything other than capital.. Ya Allah..that is very dangourous.
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 06:31 am "Can i try and help Hakima and Asad, reconcile their differing opinions. From reading the posts i think they may be a misunderstanding..a break down of communication..i think i know what Hakima saying..but Asad has assumed something, which no one has cleared up" i did not assume anything; i did, however, asked many many times clearifications. ;-) "Okay Asad seems to have the opinion that someone can know if they are a mumin or not? he said for example "Hakima you sin..but you consider yourself a mumin".. can someone know if they are a mumin?" yes, a mumin (a beleiver) should know if he is a believer or not, do not you think? ;-) "i am not sure" do you have a doubt as to your believe in Allah, His messenger, His Books, the creation of hell and heaven.....? ;-) "For example.. Hakima is right.. if you reach a higher state of iman, you will not be very likely to sin" that is not correct. even the person who reached the hightest state of iman can commit sins. everyone needs the forgiveness of Allah. ;-) "Also Asad is right, the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) used to ask for forgiveness 15 times a day. and he was the best of mankind" but he was different than any person who has the hightest state of iman, right? to say that a person who has the hightest state of iman will not commit and does not commit sin (big or small) is in correct. ;-) "So.. i think...and i stress i could be wrong big time here" lol "Is that we all need to be covered by the grace of Allah for our sins" but, common, are you saying you do not know that if you are a mumin or not? ;-) "and we cannot know who is a mumin or not. Thus if we cannot identify a mumin, then whether he is "practising" or not is irrelevant. Seeing as Allah alone knows what is in his/her heart. Of course to have such a high level of iman Of course to have such a high level of iman..and not be in fear of Allah (swt)avoid things like prayer is very unlikey" don't you (common) know yourself (your state of iman)?. don't you fear Allah? don't you avoid missing the prayers? there is a hadiis where the prophet was pointing out the act of amri bil macruuf a nahyi canil munkar. it is reported to have him say that anyone (any muslim) who sees wrong thing committed in front of him or her, he or she should do something with his or her hand; if he or she can not do it, then he or she should say something; if he or she can not do this, he or she should hate the wrong thing done in his or her heart-------------and that is the lowest iman. ;-) so, what does that tell you? you do not have to have the hightest state of iman to be a mumin or munina, right? ;-) "if we all truly had knowledge of Allah, we would not eat or have any sexual appetite," that is not true. the prophets of Allah truly had knowledge of Allah and they still ate and had sexual appetite. ;-) "so it is in some ways a blessing for us on this earth. and but Allah knows best. " yes, let's enjoy the good things Allah provided for us. ;-) "Did i say something wrong here people..let me know!." i just did. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 06:38 am "lol @ asad. You are giving me a lesson of how to understand men -----> Thanks :-)" men come in different packages; i just gave you one parcel. "Walaal walaahi adigu waxaad taahay qoof very funny aah :-)" that is why my face (online) is smilling most of the times. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 08:11 am ASAD I think you are very OLD sad Lonley man!!!!! That is my evaluation on you... so get some life!!!!!!!......you are dead man talking!!!!! peace
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 09:04 am Just want to let other people know..not asad in particular as he doesn't agree with most things i say or have heard from scholars. The sexual appetite and food appetite thing, i heard from a sheikh and he was to the best of my knowldge qouting a authenic hadith.. his name is Sheihk hamza yusef and note i said True perhaps full knowledge was the adjective he used. asad you did assume that a muslim can know whether he is a mumin or not.. i currently have no clue whther this is true or not, but from the looks of things you are not that far ahead of me Secondly asad, how can you know your state of iman?.becasue you fear Allah and pray?. that is like saying i use my eyes to see and i know how what they look like becasue when i open them i see things. Do you know the sound of your voice?.. how can you know your iman when you don't know how your voice sounds?. Do you know if your prayers are accepted..how can you know the your state of iman when you don't know if your prayers are accepted. That is like me handing in an assignment and saying i know i did well on it, or i know i did bad on it. Asad the more true knowldge you have..and act on.. the less likey you are to commit sins that some one e without that knowldge is too sin, that is why it is worse if you know something and do not do it..then if you did not know..is it not?. therefore with knowldge comes a responsibity..why would Allah give us the knowledgable people extra responsiblity if Allah(swt) thought that knolwdege did not have an affect on the ability of a muslim to fall in to error?
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 09:08 am To all Salaams This is a page I just discovered, and I am glad I did. I was fed up with what I was reading for the last three weeks And got frustrated and perhaps made my own mistakes but anyway, can I ask you one thing why are tend to gone off the subject and also I think it is not know the time we should argue one another on such subjects and how we unerstand the Quran I would like to suggest that we should try to concentrate on ourselves. Now we neglected Islam to be he only religion in Somalia. WHy111111 those of us back home are certainly disadvantaged but what about us. Here I think the best way to promote Islam is to establish it within yourselves, how can we argue with one another like the way you did saying and suspecting one another '' put your house in order first, in this case our nafs then we will come back to argue I hope noe of us is denying the thruth of the Quran. To asad It was hard for me to read all your masseges but I understand you are sometimes making points that the others disagreed could you just tell me what your main points are. I do not mean to offend you or anything but I am really intrested and concerned to know what this diffrence is about Sur may knowledge of islam is not good but I want understand your points wasalam
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 09:08 am that is a mistake..sorry "us the knowledgable people" should read "the knowledgable people"
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 09:08 am that is a mistake..sorry "us the knowledgable people" should read "the knowledgable people" i am definaly not in that group!
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 10:07 am Anon If that was supposed to be a poem, I strongly reccommend you keep your day job!
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 10:34 am "ASAD I think you are very OLD sad Lonley man!!!!!" lol------>old sad lonely man. ;-) "That is my evaluation on you" really? ;-) "so get some life!!!!!!!......you are dead man talking!!!!!" lol---->dead man talking. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 10:51 am "Just want to let other people know..not asad in particular as he doesn't agree with most things i say or have heard from scholars. The sexual appetite and food appetite thing, i heard from a sheikh and he was to the best of my knowldge qouting a authenic hadith.. his name is Sheihk hamza yusef and note i said True perhaps full knowledge was the adjective he used." did the shiekh tell you that the hadeeth were the prophet said he enjoys the good things Allah provided to him----women and food. there was once a man who used to fast every day and he did not go into his wife as often as she would liked. the prophet heard this and siad, "i'm a prophet and i enjoy the good things Allah provided". the prophet adviced the guy to fast two days a week and he should be with his wife as often as possible. ;-) "asad you did assume that a muslim can know whether he is a mumin or not.. i currently have no clue whther this is true or not, but from the looks of things you are not that far ahead of me' i did not assume anything. asked you about yourself (your state of iman), not what you know about other people. i asked you this: "don't you (common) know yourself (your state of iman)?. don't you fear Allah? don't you avoid missing the prayers?" "Secondly asad, how can you know your state of iman?.becasue you fear Allah and pray?. that is like saying i use my eyes to see and i know how what they look like becasue when i open them i see things. Do you know the sound of your voice?" i did not ask you about your eyes and the sound of your voice. you said "Okay Asad seems to have the opinion that someone can know if they are a mumin or not? he said for example "Hakima you sin..but you consider yourself a mumin".. can someone know if they are a mumin?" then, i said yes, a mumin (a beleiver) should know if he is a believer or not, do not you think? ;-) you said you are not sure about you iman. you said "i am not sure" then, i asked you: do you have a doubt as to your believe in Allah, His messenger, His Books, the creation of hell and heaven.....? ;-) you did not answer, but instead talked about the sound of your voice and eyes. ;-) "Do you know if your prayers are accepted..how can you know the your state of iman when you don't know if your prayers are accepted. That is like me handing in an assignment and saying i know i did well on it, or i know i did bad on it. Asad the more true knowldge you have..and act on.. the less likey you are to commit sins that some one e without that knowldge is too sin, that is why it is worse if you know something and do not do it..then if you did not know..is it not?. therefore with knowldge comes a responsibity..why would Allah give us the knowledgable people extra responsiblity if Allah(swt) thought that knolwdege did not have an affect on the ability of a muslim to fall in to error? " i know i have no doubt my iman. there is no question about my believe in Allah, His messenger, His Books, the creation of hell and heaven.....? ;-) you say you are not sure about you iman.! common, do you know about the arkaanul iman (the six of them) and do you believe them. if you know them and believe them, then you have iman. if you are not sure, then there is problem, because Allah does not accept believe based on doubts. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 11:03 am "To asad It was hard for me to read all your masseges" that is not my problems, is it? ;-) "but I understand you are sometimes making points that the others disagreed" that is okay that if people disagree. ;-) "could you just tell me what your main points are." tell me where you have having problems with my points, then i see if i can explain them to you. ;-) "I do not mean to offend you or anything" lol "but I am really intrested and concerned to know what this diffrence is about" what differences are you talking about? ;-) "Sur may knowledge of islam is not good but I want understand your points" if you want to undestand my points about islam and you think i'm making incorrect points, you need to read the Qura'n and sunnah and see if my points are way off. i'm not here to teach islam. if you want to understand islam, the Qur'an and sunnah can help you. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 02:08 pm lol @ asad. lol @ anon: how could u know that he is sad n lonely man? in case u don't see...he is always loling. peace...
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 03:19 pm asad, when a muomin sins...he doesn't stop becoming moumin but the catch is...he does not sin and sin as you gave its definition was disobeying Allah. So, a true moumin doesn't disobey Allah. Or do u think otherwise? I hope that was the answer that u were looking for?
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 06:07 pm "when a muomin sins...he doesn't stop becoming moumin" that is right. when a mumin sins, he or she is still a mumin, unless he or she stops being a mumin and becomes a disbeliever. ;-) "but the catch is...he does not sin and sin as you gave its definition was disobeying Allah. So, a true moumin doesn't disobey Allah." when a mumin sins, he or she disobeyed. if she or he did not disobey, he or she did not sin. hakima, since you know that no one is sin free, when you say a mumin does not sin, what do you mean? i mean, if sin is not disobedience (breaking rules), what is it? ;-) "Or do u think otherwise?" yes, a sin is a sin, but there are major sins and minor sins. ;-) "I hope that was the answer that u were looking for?" you have not answer the other question i asked you which was: are you a mumina and if you are do you sometimes sin (disobey--break the rules of Allah)? ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 06:12 pm "lol @ anon: how could u know that he is sad n lonely man?" maybe she or he is one of those who read minds. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 08:28 pm asad, read minds? hey, did u taught him/her that? lol Since i gave u one answer,do answer mine please, how can a moumin be non-practising muslim? How? peace...
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 08:53 pm -----you have not answered the other question i asked you which was: are you a mumina and if you are do you sometimes sin (disobey--break the rules of Allah)? ;-)----- "Since i gave u one answer,do answer mine please, how can a moumin be non-practising muslim? How?" when a munin sinned, he or she broke or disobeyed a rule. for example, let's say that you as a mumina told a lie. since telling a lie is a sin, did this sin make you a non-munina, hakima? i mean, you still had iman when you told the sin, right? now, the question is: when you did tell the lie, did you (as a munina) practice the rule that says thou shall not tell a lie? ;-) "asad, read minds? hey, did u taught him/her that? lol" if i knew how to read the mind of a person, then i might have known also his or her age and what he or she is thinking. ;-)
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| | Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 11:34 pm Hakima Are you in love this OLD sad Lonly man?????? How do I know if he is OLD..he is very close minded Person....who can,t understant other PPLs points!!! How do I know he is SAD.....he is Ruud and arrogent, think he know every thing when infact he can,t Explaned any thing to any one....how many ppl he confused whit Confused Points?????? How do I know he is Lonley, do I need to say more.?he Lives in the NET......his life is to Cut and Paste answer to every one whit nonsense..Wasting his time and the other PPls time.. If He is smart enough like a Mad_mac...I could have thought he get paid for being here..but he is not that Smart....the guy needs help. I came to the conculossion he may be writing from Mental Hospital or in prison......there is no way any one could Waste his time like this no matter how stupid he is!!!lolllllllllll peace
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 01:00 am Brother asad. may Allah grant me wisdom so i may understand you, May Allah grant me wisdom that i understand my iman, May Allah grant me wisdom that i have more paitence. Pray for me Sahib if you get the chance. wasalaam
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 02:30 am Anon, since you have the enlights to answer so many times the questions how do i know? Can you tell me, how do u know that I love him?!! You are a weird person. Asad, Quit playing with this double standard method of answering. Do you think that true -Iman is something that could be easily reached. It is not enough just to say its 6 arkan. Definitely no, the whole thing is your ability to practise it in your daily life. I believe a true believer (ie true moumin) should not lie, sin...etc. As long as we human are commiting sins that Allah had told us not to do, we are muslims, we haven't reached the complete Iman. "Al-deen, deen moucamilah" Get me? Common, Dear brother, don't let ur emotions control you. Just use ur Judgements. May Allah forgive us all. peace...
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 05:01 am "Hakima Are you in love this OLD sad Lonly man??????" lol-----in love. ;-) if you think she is inlove with me, aren't you in hate with me. ;-) "How do I know if he is OLD..he is very close minded Person....who can,t understant other PPLs points!!!" if not understanding other ppls points makes me an old, aren't you and other who do not understand my points old too. i mean what about you when you said you and so others here do not understand my points. you said on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 05:43 am "What Points do you have here?? how many ppl told you they can,t understand your Points???" ;-) "How do I know he is SAD.....he is Ruud and arrogent" lol--------->he is Ruud and arrogent. ;-) "think he know every thing when infact he can,t Explaned any thing to any one " i told you many times that i do not know---while you want me to teach. ;-) "how many ppl he confused whit Confused Points??????" lol---->how many pll. ;-)? "How do I know he is Lonley, do I need to say more.?he Lives in the NET his life is to Cut and Paste answer to every one whit nonsense..Wasting his time and the other PPls time.. " if i live in the net and waste my time in cutting and pasting nonsense, what about the person who is wasting his or her time wasting reading the cut and the paste----isn't she or he lonely and lives in the net too? ;-) "If He is smart enough like a Mad_mac I could have thought he get paid for being here..but he is not that Smart....the guy needs help. if i'm not that smart because i do not get paid to post messanges on here, what about the person who is reading my posts----is she or her also not smart for not getting paid every time she or her reads? don't you think anonymous you also need help? ;-) "I came to the conculossion he may be writing from Mental Hospital or in prison.....there is no way any one could Waste his time like this no matter how stupid he is!!!lolllllllllll" how could one waste his or her time reading what someone who is in prison or in mental hospital writes on here-------isn't the conclution that he or she is in prison or in metal hospital also. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 05:16 am "Asad, Quit playing with this double standard method of answering." lol-----?quit. ;-) "Do you think that true -Iman is something that could be easily reached." but still a person can have weak iman be still a mumin or munima, right? ;-) "It is not enough just to say its 6 arkan Definitely no" to say the 6 arkaanul iman is different than to believe them. anyone can say and read the 6 arakaanul iman (even the parrot can say them), not believe them. ;-) "the whole thing is your ability to practise it in your daily life." that is right. you can still practice and sometimes sin while you (as a mumina) still believe the arkanul iman, right? ;-) "I believe a true believer (ie true moumin) should not lie, sin...etc." yes, he or she should not lie, but if he or she lies and does not became a kufar, the sin of lying does not make him or her a non-munina or a non-mumin, right? ;-) "As long as we human are commiting sins that Allah had told us not to do, we are muslims, we haven't reached the complete Iman. "Al-deen, deen moucamilah" Get me?" are you saying that as long as you are committing sin (the sin of lying for example) you are not a mumina, hakima? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 05:22 am "Brother asad. may Allah grant me wisdom " aamiin. "so i may understand you" the important thing is to understand yourself. ask youself this "do i know about the arkaanul iman (the six of them) and do i believe them. if i know them and believe them, then i have iman. if i'm not sure, then there is problem, because Allah does not accept believe based on doubts. ;-) "Pray for me Sahib if you get the chance." may Allah take away your doubts and replace them with iman. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 05:47 am fyi, hakima, do you know that a person who does not have iman does not get forgiveness and a person who has iman is the one who gets forgiveness. i mean, the only way a person who was a non-believer could be forgiven is when he or she enters islam. when a person accepts islam, all of this misdeeds are forgiven. Allah most hight and most forgiving has guaranteed heaven to the muminiin (the believers) who avoid major sins. "If you avoid the major (part) of what you have been forbidden (to do), We will cancel out for you your (other) evil deeds and will admit you (to Paradise) with a noble entry. (al-Nisa 4:31)" "Those who avoid the greatest of sins and indecencies, and forgive when they are angry (al-Shra 42:37)" "Those who avoid the greatest sins and indecencies, except for oversights, (will find that) surely your Lord is ample in forgiveness. (Al-Najm 53:32)" "The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: "The five [daily] prayers, Friday to Friday, and Ramadan to Ramadan make atonement for what has happenned since the previous one when major sins have been avoided." "Avoid the seven noxious things"- and after having said this, the propeht (SAW) mentioned them: "associating anything with Allah; magic; killing one whom Allah has declared inviolate without a just case, consuming the property of an orphan, devouring usury, turning back when the army advances, and slandering chaste women who are believers but indiscreet." (Bukhari and Muslim)" ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 08:09 am Dear Asad, "are you saying that as long as you are committing sin (the sin of lying for example) you are not a moumina?" Look at these sayings from our prophet (pbuh) "He who is not a trustworthy has no faith..." "There are three signs of a hypocrite:when he speaks, he speaks lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it and when he is trusted, he betrays" So, who is on fault here: the prophet or you? peace...
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 08:57 am ------"are you saying that as long as you are committing sin (the sin of lying for example) you are not a moumina?"----- "Look at these sayings from our prophet (pbuh) "He who is not a trustworthy has no faith..." so, are you saying that whenever hakima (you as a mumina) lies (and becomes untruestworhty) she stops being a mumina?:-) "There are three signs of a hypocrite: when he speaks, he speaks lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it and when he is trusted, he betrays" hakima, when you tell a lie (for example when you lie to your parent about where you have been last night), are you being a hypocritical about your faith (iman)? ;-) "So, who is on fault here: the prophet or you?" what fault are you talking about? ;-) let me ask you the same question for the 10th times---which you keep refusing to answer: hakima, when you do tell a lie (not about your faith) do you (as a munina) practice the rule that says thou shall not tell a lie? if you do not, are you saying you are not a munima, hakima? i mean hae you ever stopped being munima? ;-). keep in mind, everyone sins (unless you are saying you do not sin)? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:08 am Asalamu alaicum Asad I think you are going too far now. Whather or not we are muimin and mu'mina only Allah (SWT) knows. I simply resfused the example you took. I think Asad you are making Islam too difficult. wasalam
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:19 am hakima, the hypocrites (the lairs, the untrusworthy people) the prophet was talking about are those who have no iman (faith in Allah) and know about this but hide it and tell lie about their faith (their iman): "And of mankind are some who say: we believe (ya-quu-luuna-aamanaa) in Allah and in the Last Day, yet they are not believers (wa-ma-waa-hum-bi-munimiin). They would deceive Allah and those who believe whereas they deceive not save themselves, and they perceive not. In their hearts is a disease. so Allah has increased unto them that disease, and for them shall be a torment afflictive for they have been lying" 2:8-10. now, hakima, when you lie (not about your faith, but other things) are you like those who lie about their believe in Allah in the Last Day and are not actually believers (wa-ma-waa-hum-bi-munimiin)? ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:29 am Asad, I would love to go on arguing with you till Allah knows when. But unfortunately i m constrainted to a time limit. My MA finals are coming soon. Pray for me.And, if i ever opened that "matchmaking" business...i'll come looking for you :-) salaam alaykum.
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:31 am "I think you are going too far now." lol-----> going too far now. ;-) "Whather or not we are muimin and mu'mina only Allah (SWT) knows." yes, Allah knows, but Allah wants us to profess and know about our iman. i have no doubt about my iman in Allah, the Qur'an, the prophets, the last day, the angels, heaven and hell, etc, do you? ;-) "I simply resfused the example you took." that is okay with me. ;-) "I think Asad you are making Islam too difficult." no, i'm not making difficult. i'm saying it is easy to know if you have iman or if you have no iman. if you have in doubt about your iman in Allah, last day, the Qur'an, the prophet, the exisistance of hell and heaven, the angels, i'm do not. ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:32 am no
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:42 am "Asad, I would love to go on arguing with you till Allah knows when. But unfortunately i m constrainted to a time limit. My MA finals are coming soon. Pray for me." i understand, hakima. ;-) and may Allah make it easy for you the exams. "And, if i ever opened that "matchmaking" business...i'll come looking for you :-)" if you do not, i'll sue you and demand my 10% of the business. ;-) "salaam alaykum." wa calaykumu salaam, my munina sister in islam.:-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:48 am Asalamu alaicum Hakima I think you are the first sister I read your name on the net. How are you I am bit confused here, and simply cannot understand who is who here. got my message Hope you will do your exams well. If I suggest one thing there should not be discussions in here about this. what I think though i am a bit scare now to say because I am bit scare to say it. Soma poeple are delibeltly asking some questions. please let me know soon what you think about this. Wasalam
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:55 am "no" hakima, i am glad that you said you know you are a mumina, even though you sin. ;-) fyi, the prophet was reported to have said: if no one sinned, Allah will create another people who will sin and then ask His forgiveness in order that His Merciful Qualities may come to manifest. the prophet said: every one (kuli ibni aadan) sins, but the best of them are those who seek repentance and try to avoid sins as much as they can. (it is in albukaari and muslims books.) ;-)
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| | Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 10:11 am "If I suggest one thing there should not be discussions in here about this." is that an order? ;-) "what I think though i am a bit scare now to say because I am bit scare to say it." don't be scared. ;-) "Soma poeple are delibeltly asking some questions." i f yousuggest one or two things here, you will be asked questions and clarifications. you do not want people assuming things about you, do you? you see, this place is a discussion group where people ask and answer questions. if you do not answer the question that is put to you and you keep insisting on your point----while at the same time ignoring the what is asked, the question will keep coming back to you, like it or not. ;-)
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