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     | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 08:19 am Asalamu aleykum, I am proud to be a Somali and Muslim; however, everyday I ask myself what kind of adjustment that our society needs to make in order to become a modern society without loosing our religious and cultural values. One thing that I am convinced is that we do need an adjustment and we also need to redefine the religion role in our daily life activities. I personally see that the religion is the best medication for our soul and spirit and it should give us the interior peace that will assure us to have a fair and decent life in this world and the best place in the heaven after death. So whatever that will enable you to reach at that equilibrium is the best religion for you. Sometimes is good to share your belief with others who have similar interest and belief and sometimes is appropriate to hold your belief in your personal reality. If we do not reach at the above equilibrium we are susceptible that our emotions will turn out bad behaviors such as selfishness, lying, manipulation, violence, judging, ridicule, inferiority/superiority, jealousy/envy, arrogance and hatred. What I have seen and most of us have experienced is a total confusion about what should we learn from our religion and what religious values should we carry and implement in order to fulfill our daily activities as a productive Somali Muslim members. A lot of our confusion has to deal with the way that we have been taught the Islam by our religious teachers (Macalimiinta dugsiyadda Qur'aanka) and by our parents, who, in my opinion, did the best they could, but was not enough or was not appropriate to become a competitive Muslim in a modern society. In our first step of learning, they have worked on expanding our memory capabilities by memorizing a huge amount of Qur’aan rather than focusing on developing of moral values, and moral sense of right and wrong, learning to follow rules, and developing the capacity for logical and abstract thought, and developing sense of competence, responsibility and the ability to take the perspective of others. There is nothing wrong with memorizing the Qur’aan, though the necessity of doing so it’s nowadays highly debatable. As we know that our Prophet Mohamed’s (SCW) era people did not know how to write and to read, so memorizing Quraan was a mandatory action in order to preserve its integrity and originality. But today for all technology that we have we surely preserve it in a better way. Please try to make a constructive an intellectual discussion rather than just bringing out your obvious defense mechanism. Happy Eid
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| | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 09:47 am omar, For the life of me, i can't agree you more what you have just said. You hit he nail on the head. Yes, we need to overhaul our religion to fit our modern life without altering the concept behind the origin of any verse. You see, Omar it is my opinion that the only reason that religion was brough to mankind was to him guidence and show him the best way to live in this world. It is my opinion also that Allah didn't bring this religion to become a major obstacles in our daily lives.One one hand, religion should have bring eternal happiness, piece and trnaquiltiy. on the other hand, it also bring external hapinness of wealth, material, prosperity, healthy society for both morally and physically. However, today muslims, especially we somalis, are having big problem to live our modern daily lives and retain their religion. The reason is simple. Religionlly, we live in the past. The life style of the seventh century can't applied to the 21st life style. We need to redefine the sharia. We new modern schollars sit down and hammer the things out. According to islamic fiqi(quranic sceince), islam are devided into three categories: 1. Al-caqiidah " arkaanul iimaan" ( belief system). 2. Al-cibaadah "arkaanul islaam(worship system). 3. Al-macaamilah(Eco and Socio-political system). The first one "Al caqiidah" can't be overhauled. it is not based on reasoning. It is belief and it is beyond reasoning. You gotta believe it. For instance, you can't ask yourself, who is God's father? Anyway. How God origianted. you won't find any answers. The second one also can't be overhauled.But there can be small changes according individual situations. For instance, you can't make noon prayers "duhur" 2 "ragca" when in fact they are 4 "ragca". However, if you are in journey, you can pray 2 instead of 4. But the third one, can be overhauled any time to adjust and fit your situations. All we need to know is why Allah really want from us to do this kind of situation. And what can we do to become the best society. It is in this categories that all our lives depend on. We need new sharia based on the quran but fits our modern life. We need to redefine the role of the women in our society. We need to redefine how muslim man can marry more than one wife. We need to redefine the concept of "hijab" and how our modern women would wear hijab among this modern society. We need to redefine the concept of "iba". All in all, we need to look deep all our eco-and socio-political critically and come up with modern sharia based on quran and can comply with our modern life to take full advantage for what we have in this world. and guess what! we can do it. we can come up with new formulas. eidul mubaarak Alipapa
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| | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 10:29 am Omar We are tired of idealistic talking, You are right about most of the things you said, but you need to start materializing what you have just said. In other words ask yourself if you can make difference, if you can then do it. If you are here to talk and create some topic then God help the nomads. It is proven today that the only way that you can make things happen is to get involved and become an activist regardless of what that is. In the end, how bad you want something will be directly proportional to how much you achieve. Your question seems to touch on many areas therefore it can be look at from different angles, I would be careful though to put too much emphasis on our traditional way of learning the Islamic values. God bless every somali teacher who spent all their lives teaching our children. In fact the only question that makes sense and which is at the heart of the religious decay in somalia is to ask why there has not been any attempt by the clan elites to set up and incorporate our educational system to that of Islamic values, at least at primary level. I tell you this,and if you want you can check somali history, especially the creation of modern somali state, There was clear attepmt by those who colonized somalia to systematically remove Islamic influence from somali people. This is what happened 1. Primary and secondary education were screened to point where Islamic values were replaced with somalis value, poems, "heroic clan histories". Clan elites never looked beyond clan values. They never saw what was the real intention of the enenmy to separate somalia from its islamic heritage. 2. Italian constitution were adopted as supreme upholder of the law. Who are we? Italians. Remember Islamic constitutions were rejected, including Sucuudiga and Masar. In addition, there were no single somali present when the so-called constitution were being set up. 3. The first Islamic university were set up in mid 80s. I guess it was not that important. The consequences? no need to revisit. Did somali rulers learn anything from that as well the civil war? I doubt, Again Jabuuti conference Italian constitution were adopted. I don't understand, does this country belong to Italy? Omar I don't believe somalia belongs to anyone except us, Somalis,but looking at actions of the older genration somalia belogs to the West. One time italian constitution another Nuclear waste. If what we want really is to internalize what we believe,then we need to go back and undo our shackles from where ever we find. In addition we need to adopt this simple ideology: enjoin good prevent evil.
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| | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 01:02 pm Alipapa, What do you know about the relationship between reason and Islamic Caqiidah? " Caqiidah is not based on reasoning, it is belief and beyond reasoning" what an ignorant statement. I will not dig your incoherent reasoning, but I will explain to you the realtionship between Islamic Caqiidah and reason. On your part find me one instance where reason and Islamic Caqiidah contradict each other. First, we are not using western concept of reason, we are using Human concept of reason, from Adam to Dijaal, in other words universal. Thirteenth century Muslim jurist, and greatest Muslim polemicist, Taqi Din Ibn Taymiyyah expolored the precise relationship between Islamic caqiidah and reason at a time when the existance of Islamic faith as such was threatned by Greek logicians and philosophers. Reason was seen as independent entity, rather than dependent entity. Ibn Taymiyyah with his usual penetrating perception was able to see the destructive concequences of this notion where reason not only becomes independent entity but ultimately appears as body of knowledge that could rival Islamic religion if not understood correctly. Ibn Taymiyyah therefore undertook what would become the greatest polemic work that ever lebbled agianst Logic and philosophy. As result, he demolished the basic foundations of philosophy as well as its follower in the Muslim world. The interesting thing here is Ibn taymiyyah completely relied on Quraanic concepts. Alipapa, here is your answer. In his classic work, Ibn Taymiyahh divides human knowledge, FITRA into two, Fitra al-Badhiniyah,inner Fitra, where man inherently distinguishes good from evil without resorting scriptural revelation. Ibn taymiyyah says this Fitra is the internal constitution of man which leads him to choose something if entials reward and and alerts him to avoid it if leads to punishment. Despite the great importance of this Fitra, Ibn taymiyyah argues it is not enough, it needs external enforcement, which leads us to second fitra. Fitra- al Munazalah, scriptural revelation, prophets, and massengers. The second Firta is a perfect complement of the first fitra. Ibn taymiyyah says if the two were not consistant prophets would not been accepted, and few would have believed God. What is this has to do with reason? Don't miss this one. Ibn Taymiyyah accuretly defines reason as one of the componants of the first Fitra, al-Badhiniyah. He argues sound religion,and true teachings would not be rejected by reason. If this happens then you can be sure the falseness what you call religion. He adds, in some case there are unrevealed true knowledge which reason have nothing to say, however, if revealed fitra al-badhiniyah will automatically accept as truth by using one of its componants, Reason. In short, reason never contradicts sound religion. the two are perfect complements, and you can be sure that anything reason rejects is not a sound religion. Having said that however, let me warn you, there is a limitation of what human mind can comprehend. You cannot use rational methods in order to reach THE TRUTH. Remember Surutul Ikhlaas. " QUL HUWA ALLAAHU AXAD, ALLAAHU SAMAD, LAM YALID WALAM YUULAD WALAM YAKUN LAHU KUFU'AN AXAD" A Classic discussion of Reason and Caqiidah can be found on various Islamic debates,including the debate between Sufi Saint Ibn Arabi and the Hanbali jurist Ibn taymiyyah.
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| | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 09:50 pm durgal, First of all i don't appreciate your naked aggression on me. And it only leads me the conclusion of "only cowards attack their inocent opponents out of fear and defeat". Second thanks of teaching me that two kind of reasoning. However, Ibnu Taymiyah is a muslim scholar and his opinion counts but to me i don't consider him a devine truth. And this classification he uses logic rather than quranic verse. Thus, i can disagree with him. Third, you didn't do anything more than cowards do. you just fighted and attacked without addressing what i was talking about. Tell me where did you addressed that Al-caqiidah doesn't beyond reasoning??. In fact you agreed with me unwittenly. this is what you wrote down: "Having said that however, let me warn you, there is a limitation of what human mind can comprehend. You cannot use rational methods in order to reach THE TRUTH." Tell me what is the difference between "there is a limitation of what human mind can comprehend. " and " Caqiidah is not based on reasoning, it is belief and beyond reasoning"?. look i don't want to argue for the sake of damn argument. and i don't appreciate your intrusive and cowardly method that you attack me. next time if you have some solid arguement, please let me know. What i hate is an idiot like you who franchise/copy rightes islam like their intelectual properties. Alipapa
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| | Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 11:25 pm Durgal One thing i have noticed in your debates is the fact that you justify everything according to Islamic standards,,,Since when was Islam the benchmark for assessing the applicability of certain ideals into our everyday life? Islam and philosophy are not complements to each other, on the contrary,they are opposite. In islam,one simply has to follow certain predetermined principles as a way of life. In philosophy,however, one has to live a life on his own standard..using his sensory perception,, Making sweeping generalization about these issues wont solve anything. You argue and question the whole foundation of philosophy with your unthought remarks which have no basis. your remarks""reason never contradicts religion"" is a serious remark that deserves the outrage of those who proffess to be Atheist,,Atheist have sound,reasonable argument against religion and the existence of God,,,yet you are making such platitudes here,,,. Your sources are also questionable since their influence is so limited,,A strong argument can be made when your sources are recognizable..... The mere production of philosophical textbooks doesnt guarentee one the title of a philosopher... And stop the character assasination ,,,,since the argument is about a point of view, retrict yourself to the issue,,,
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| | Thursday, December 28, 2000 - 05:46 am Alipapa, what a hypocrite you are!!! Aren't you the one always rudely attacking people on the net and now you have the audacity to say: "only cowards attack their inocent opponents out of fear and defeat". You are one agrogant wimp!
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| | Thursday, December 28, 2000 - 06:07 am Figuratively speaking, i suspect faisal Abdi to be also Ali PaPa.But i may be wrong.I have Forensically diognosed their similarities.If it is true,glory be to the coward with disguise skills!
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| | Thursday, December 28, 2000 - 06:17 am Omar You may have a point there,only on the part of adjustment on islam laws to fit modern life.But it shouldn't be an anormous change,but when ali papa came running to support your say,i completely lost my appetite to support your theory.Philosophicaly speaking, i can rationalise him to be an exclusive rare specimen of dirt decay manure.Religeously speaking,atheist comes to mind.Generally speaking,i think he is a misfit,Alcoholic retard.lol
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| | Friday, December 29, 2000 - 09:38 am Forensic Fools are known to open their dirty mouths in the street,,no wonder you are fool,,nevertheless,,you have missed the point and in the middle of no where appeared with your vehement abusive language..if there was any common sense left in you please act on it and stop going beyond what has been discussed,,you seem to be eager to use your dirty language,,,,
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| | Friday, December 29, 2000 - 12:52 pm Alipapa what can I say,I am intimidated I thought we had intellectual problem between Caqiidah and reason. However, I came to the conclusion that we may have another problem, reading and comprehension problem. Philosophy cannot be your major if your reading skills are this low. Can we go back and read together the main points of our debate. You noted "Caqiidah is not based on reasoning" and you took an absurd example "Who is God's father? How God originated?" My whole argumnet was to show you that what you call reason is in fact a philosophical question which Islam teaches us to refrain. And it was in this context that I said there is a limit of what human mind can comprehend. Then I went to show what true reason is and how is it related to the Islamic Caqiidah. This is what true reason is. Someone tells you to kill a stranger, Immeadiately you ask yourself if that is right or wrong, you did not say let me look up from the Qura'aan and see what it says. There was something inside you that told you it is not right. The basis of that judgement is what is known REASON. Go back and reflect and see if that is not consistant with Ibn Taymiyyah concept of Fitra al Badhiniyyah. There aren't two reason, only one exist. The other one you call reason is simply confused, arrogent,and old age question of philosophy which has nothing to do with reason. You said " Ibn taymiyyah was Muslim scholar his opinion counts, but he uses logic rather than qura'anic verses" How do you know if ibn taymiyyah used logic rather than Qur'anic verses? In my comment I said the interesting here is Ibn taymiyyah completely relied on qur'anic concepts, Did you read this Alipapa? Do you know ibn Taymiyyah credentials? He is one of the greatest muslim thinkers of all time, and I am previlleged to be associated with his writings.
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| | Friday, December 29, 2000 - 06:35 pm dURGAL ,,ALIPAPA.. I THINK OUR PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSIONS ARE TAKING US OUT OF OUR LIMITS,,LET US REFLECT AND SEE WHAT WE HAVE SO FAR COVERED,, EID MUBARAK TO YE ALL
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| | Friday, December 29, 2000 - 06:55 pm I-Observer, So you caught me preaching "people should drink water" while i was drinking Italian white wine lol? and i am here caught red-handed?. Ok, I-observe, i snapped like Mike Tyson. Anyway thanks for the keen observation. keep on keeping me on line. Forensic: You right and i am sorry being faisal Abdi. for sure, your forensic method are working. But will you please try not to use this method again. If you do, for sure with lousy and crappy work of yours, you can send many innocent people to death row. And yeah!! glory be to with those who always find innocent people guilty by using their lousy forensic skills! Durgal, you lost me in the space. I am no longer following what you are saying. Look can we stop this and go back to the topic because there are alot to be discussed rather than Caqiidah VS reasoning?. alipapa
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 10:21 am Alipapa If you can't follow the very discussion you have started then I suggest you change your nick to Juhaa. Have you ever heard silence is a blessing. Please don't say Omar started the discussion. When I say discussion I mean " Caqiidah is beyond reasoning" Good Bye
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 11:12 am Alipapa I am lucky really Alipapa,for i an never be you •••••••,,I am not you bastard and i am lucky for i have a perfect gift of perfect mind while you are bestowed witha twisted way of thinking and next time plaese alipapa,,use your common mentality while you claim to be me, the good guy,,
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 11:16 am Alipapa You are dying to be faisal abdi,,i know faisal abdi,,please you cant keep up with faisal he is the best educated guy i have ever seen among somali men,,believe me,,and i am not lying to you,,he is a young man and well educated,,you cant argue with faisal,,,and you can never be on the same status with faisal,, faisal if you read this message ,,you have to know it is me ,,aamino,,,and please phone me faisal,, forget about these craps
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 11:32 am Durgal, I swear you must reer mudug--always denial. Sir, all i know is you are one who have no clue what the heck he is talking about. You gravely failed to come up any solid arguement against "caqiidah is beyond human reasoning". But then again, here you are, unashamedly, crying on the top of your lungs that"i can't following any discussion" and that " my reading skills are this low". Sir, did ever occur you it is you who is incoherent. You always buble and circle around. I don't know how you could say that when you didn't answer my question which i put your ass on the spot. in case you forgot, this is the question you failed to answer miserably. What is the difference between these quotes, one is yours and the other is mine. 1-"there is a limitation of what human mind can comprehend. You cannot use rational methods in order to reach THE TRUTH." 2-"Al caqiidah" can't be overhauled. it is not based on reasoning. It is belief and it is beyond reasoning. You gotta believe it". aren't they two sides of a same coin?. I was doing a favor you when i changed the subject.And All i meant was to save you. However, for now you are saying i couldn't follow the discussion, i want you to go back and see how our discussion started and prove me wrong. This what i am saying: caqiidah can't be overhauled or reformed by muslim schollars. It is beyond human reasoning. we need to believe the way it is. In other words,we can't make any change in Al-arkaanul iimaan. Should you need more clarification, please don't hesisate to ask. And let me tell you one thing dude. You better stop this Xaamidul Algazali and Ahmed Ibnu Teymiyah overkilling. You used these two guys more than anyone ever used them. This is even more than "tacasubu acmaa"-the blind-dedication and personality cult. You are overkilling these two poor scholars and overclocking them. My best bet is you don't know who else to quote. And seeing you mentioning Ibnu Taymiyah and Ibnu Al-arabi , the two extreme ends, and calling them muslim schollars, is giving me the notion that you should be knowing better. Should you any idea what Ibnu Al-arabi stood for you wouldn't have metioned same line with Ibnu Taymiyah. you should have be ashamed it. Alipapa
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 11:55 am Thanks all of you for the interesting points that you made. It seems to me that we are zigzagging the point that I wished to be discussed, but I think part of it is because I made a vague point.. Let me pose a specific question with the hope that everybody will write out his/her point without making meaningless criticism to each other. The Question is: are our children, (who most of them live in Somalia), getting a cultural/religious values and education which will be suitable for becoming a productive member in a modern Islamic society? There is no question that our parents and our Qur’aan teachers have dedicated their time and lives to us in order to learn what they have considered their best teachable and transmittable religious/cultural values. However that should not mean we couldn’t reflect and make some criticism toward our traditional way of learning the Islamic values. The reason that I am emphasizing on this point is that the majority of our people still keep learning the Islamic values in a same way that we did 20-30-may be 100 years ago. Thanks Allah now we have an opportunity to get a feedback on what we have missed and what we should have learnt instead, and so we can talk about it, discuss, correct, make recommendations, etc…. There is a widespread recognition by Scientists that the kind of experiences the brain is exposed to in the first ten years dramatically influence how it operates for the rest of its life. For millions of our children the world they encounter is relentlessly memorizing what they cannot understand in a way that if they don’t do it, the only alternative response available is punishing, menacing and being hostile to them. So, with astounding speed and efficacy, their brains adapt in an effort to protect them by preparing for battle, aggression, etc. In addition to that they are missing a climate for enchanted minds to obtain information, stimulate imagination, develop an atmosphere to enhance motivation and creativity and experience the value of a work ethic. The effects of above mentioned statement, generally speaking, is that the average Somali person (obviously there are exceptions) is experiencing poor and amorphous mental organizational skills, poor self-improvement skills, limited knowledge of the world’s history, limited knowledge of art, a lack of concept of the social contract, a lack of understanding the meanings and differences between State vs Government/Public vs Private, difficult to understand the abstractive concepts, limited use of common sense, erroneous ways of reasoning, perpetual self-destruction, inability of questioning and criticizing the barbarian costume (e.g., female circumcision), on and on etc. I know that I made some touchy points, but I believe that we should not be a false proud society and sometimes even if the true hurts we have to face to it in order to solve our problems. My challenge is to be sure that the way of religious/cultural teaching and schools meet the special needs of our young children. Omar
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| | Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 12:10 pm amiino@lol get a room you and faisal.
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| | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 07:45 am Nice topic and nice discussion. Guys keep the good job. right now I don't have time to write my point, but I will be back to make it. Happy new year
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| | Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 02:07 pm Faisal Abdi, My heart goes over you if your understanding of english is such that excellent. Please try to read again what i wrote down and try to understand before i tell you. I can accept apology if you do that. This is what i wrote: "Forensic: You right and i am sorry being faisal Abdi. for sure, your forensic method are working. But will you please try not to use this method again. If you do, for sure with lousy and crappy work of yours, you can send many innocent people to death row. And yeah!! glory be to with those who always find innocent people guilty by using their lousy forensic skills!". Please get help with this. Go to your english instructor or maybe your older cousin who goes to some college or whoever can help you with. And If what i wrote down turns out i am faisal Abdi or i stole your identity whatsoever, please have my apology. And you can ask help Forensic. I am sure, he understand better you and your chich--aamino do. What i wrote down is called sarcastic. In fact, It is the opposit of what you though. you see, i shouldn't be teaching you english. I am lousy writer, too. I know you are great philosopher.lol. But please try to read carefully before you storm at stage armed with stupidity + idiocy by not understanding the basics. so as your chick--aamino. Alipapa
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| | Monday, January 01, 2001 - 02:11 pm Omar your question is a legitimate and very important one, Surely to me the answer is NO. Our children are not getting a good method to learn an correct Islamic behavior nor western education. So what is left for them is An ignorant way of teaching in a very remote environment by extremely unprepared teachers. Cidna uma maqna ceelna uma qodna, Wabilaahi Towfiiq
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| | Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 10:25 am Faisal you should apologise to Alipapa for the misunderstanding.... And both of you try to lower the voice and be moderate...
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| | Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 01:04 pm ALIPAPA Misunderstandings happen everyday, and as the saying goes "To err is human". I offer you my sincere oppology for my stupidity and hope that you accept.
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| | Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 07:41 am Guys please answer Omar's question, . . cuz I am dumb, empty and ashamed to say something.. . . cuz I am victim of Somali educational system. . . May be we are all in the same boat.. . I just love the true... Biibii77
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