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     | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:46 pm If we define culture as something which we say or do normally like our daily activity and how we conduct ourselves, then Somali's culture is the lowest, least intelligable, and most superficial culture in the world. This is not to say that there isn't a pure well-defined culture in Somalia. What I am refering to is the culture of Civil War generation, from 15-35. Why should we care about this Issue? It is simple, If this generation continues to advance in its present course then the whole generation will be lost to "slave culture" which has a tremendous consequence for everyone. I promise you no one will be immune from this. The people under discussion are the very people you know. Your older bro, 30-37, who is sitting at the Caffe with particular interest in soccer discussions. He seems to have no interest at all for community responsibilty as well as any personal development. He switches from NFL to Serie A and back to NFL again,with the neat planning and tremendous precision. The high school people, though there are some great kids out there, most of them are fucking stupid, at least from their actions and culture. They are weak, and can't reason well. They can't even put together two normal sentences. What these Kids and their parents don't know is that the window of opportunity gets smaller and smaller as they move deceptively from one grade to another. Another thing they don't know is that Somalis are brought here to work, not to go University. This partly explains the inadequate support for Somalis at high schools. For instance, when a new student arrives in Minneapolis, he or she normally gets thrown into designated schools; either Washburn or Roosevelt. One of the devastating effects of this policy is that it effectively curbs any meaningful language development of these students. There is no doubt that this is a major constraint, however,a much serious constraint emerges from the culture of the civil war generation itself. For example, the value we attach to education is not strong,kids are not pushed to limit, they are given too much freedom, religious and moral obligations are unusually lax,they don't get enough emotional support,rewards. In addition, no one takes seriously the impact American culture has on these kids. I'll give you an example of why that is important. Last week I ran into this 19 year old guy whom I barely know. Probably I met him through "Let's motivate these Kids" project. Anyway he was happy and talking too much. At first I didn't suspect anything. Then he tells me he wanted to buy a beer,and if I didn't mine he would drink it in my apartment. I said negative. Then he proposes that we should go to his house where he will drink his beer. This time I acted cool beacuse I didn't want to pass an oppurtunity to observe something. A little while later he buys two big bottles of beer from nearby Liqiour store where he is known "Beer man" and we head to his house. Shockingly he brings the bottles to the open in front of his brothers and he starts to drink everything in less than half an hour. It is midnight and we head back to downtown to eat. I found this half-decent place,invested with hippies, named LUCCE. Here he orders Whisky and gets really drank. I eat my Lazagna Verde, we talk for a while, he tells me how he started drinking while he was in high school in Somalia, and how all of his friends in here drink. At one thirty in the morning he says he wants to go to a stripper club and I says no. The night comes to an end and I leave. For me the most interesting things about this story is the complexity of the kid. He was miserable son of bitch, but he was willing to take full responsibility of his actions. In short, the biggest problem with the civil war generation is that they do not understand how important it is have a sound culture. They neither have pure somali culture,nor Muslim culture. In other words they are embracing every damn culture, and If this continues then we must be ready to join in the ranks of cultureless people. The down side of this is that no one has ever survived without sound culture. Do you consider this as serious problem? If you do why? Can this be overcome and how?
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:06 pm I do consider this a problem. A serious problem indeed.The youth today are misguided,corrupt,confused and crave for model-moral leadership.Indeed Somalia has lost two wars.The freedom to live in the soil Allah intended them to live and A defeat of a Generation that is deteriorating in Rapid condition.I am gravely saddened and motified and the worst thing is;Having the intelligence to 'Predict' the future bothers me immensely.I predict a Generation losing its life line and identity.A culture by my difinition is 'The ways of living among a group,community or people that share same values and practices that was passed on down the line through generation'.This culture in our case;"Somali Culture" is on the point of extinct.The worst is yet to come.Our Religeon is in grave danger.Our Youth are losing their Religeon values.Durgal culture should be the last thing to worry about.We are losing our identity.Soon there will be no distinction between us and the african american who have slavery to blame;what do we have?Certainly war in Somalia cannot be an excuse,nor a confuse! Solution? Peace in Somalia.Charity begins at home!
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:56 pm Hello Durgal the truth barely nothing much we can do , the reason its well planned from the west and north America to take advantage the vulnerable and weak communities selected part of the world , and we happen to be one of these communities ,,,take example black American,,,no culture no tradition no strong heritage ,,they fall nowhere ,,if you look European American ,,you can see Irish festival ,polish festival ,and so on ,the Somali families are brought here mostly the mothers are illiterate..and we all know no fathers around ,simply the target are the children to brainwash and inhabit them to the local culture ,and practically is happening ,,and most of them in few years ''the lost generation''no culture no tradition and new religion ,,everything we somali's are valued are out of the picture .. what we can do and how we contain is something we have to debate all Somali's ????????
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| | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 06:41 pm hi I have to start by saying that I totally agree with you. We are a lost people! Websters defines culture as : The act of, or any labor or means employed for, training, disciplining, or refining the moral and intellectual nature of man; as, the culture of the mind. We (the civil war generation, as you call us) lack the discipline, training and morals necessary to make it in this world. There are those of us that pursue a university education and try to make something of our lives. But we are few...or at least it seems that way. The rest of us are lost..watching rap city and emulating what we see. Smoking weed on the bus, while white passengers shake their heads. Getting pregnant at 15, as if trying to win a ticket to appear on Jerry Springer. all of this has become accepted! If you are a young successful somalian, people look at you as if you have aids or something. If you are involved in bettering your community-they call you white. It seems to me that somalians have an INFERIORITY COMPLEX. One that, naturally, we denie. Who us? we are the best! somalia all the way!! Shallow words that we say to make ourselves feel better. Who are we kidding??? We don't want to succeed. We don't think that we can! I can write a book on this issue.. but I will spare you the details. GOD HELP THE SOMALI PEOPLE-FOR THEY REFUSE TO HELP THEMSELVES!!!!
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 02:09 am OUR CULTURE IS MESSED UP BECAUSE OF GARY GLITER, NOW TELL THE BASTARD TO MESS WITH ME NOT KIDS
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 02:39 am HAHAHA ONLY FOOLS CRY... KEEP IT REAL COWARDS... YOU THE ONES WHO BREAK THE LAW AND... SNITCH WHEN YOUR BRO GOES ON A MISSION... TO PLACE BREAD ON THE TABLE... •••• IS SOO HARD YOU TALK BOUT IGNORANCE AND GANBANGERS...WHERE U AT?...B4 YOU FANTACY END COS SOME NIGGER PLANNED A DRIVE BY... NO MOTIVE YOU JUST LOOK NICE AS A TARGET... CRUEL KIDS JUST MAKE A SPLIT DECISION TO SPIT... LEAD AT YEH IN YOUR SUIT... LOOOKING LIKE A LAWYER... THEY WILL JUST SAY...BLAH*BLAH*BLAH... YOU BEEN SPRAYED... WHERE IS YOU LOGIC BUNKS? DON'T YOU SEE WHERE WE SURVIVIN AT?... ALL TALK AND NO ACTION... COME SOMALI LET DO A MARCH FOR THE FUTURE... MEETUP IN WASHINGTON SQUARE AND MAKE 1000MEN MARCH FOR THE... SURVIVAL OF OUR OWN... AIN'T WE GOT NO TIME TO SPARE TO FIXUP THE WAYS...WE SEE THE FUTURE... SWOLLOW YOUR SORROW AND LET STOP THE BUST THE JOKE ON THE NET... COS WE BEST KNOW...HOW TO FLIP AND TOSS A VERBAL ARGUEMENT... SHOW ME ACTION... CONVINCE ME NIGGERS... COS YALL SOUND LIKE YOU PLAYING MUSLIC CHAIRS... THE RULE OF THE GAME IS THE LEAST CUNNING WILL NEVER SURVIVE... YOU WANT THE TUGS TO DIE... •••• THE TRUTH NIGERS THE GAME IS STRANGE AND WE ALL GOT BABIES THAT NEED TO BE FED... SO WE GOTO PACK STEEL AND SIMPLE MULTIPLY...•••• WON'T CHANGE TILL WE REARRANGE THE SCRIPT AND... I DON'T SEE ANY OF YOU NIGGERS FROM THE OTHERSIDE OF TOWN TRYIN TO UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION WE LIVIN AT SO... COWARDS HOLD YOUR LIPS TILL YOU...GET RELAXED IN A 6x0.5 BOX AND GET SENT 6FEET UNDER... DON'T TOSS US A CRABY LOAD OF STRORIES..... YE HEARD
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:38 am you people are nothing but a big time JOKE!. how dare YOU talk about somali culture!!. since when we have one,culture, to begin with??. For your fucking future reference, please note Somalia won't be what it is today, synonamous with chaos, if we have a culture to beging with. We never had one. We were bunch of hypocrites who practices hypocritism to the bones. and YOU Durgal you are typical hypocrites--simply the biggest. Alipapa
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 07:30 am Ali papa Do you really comprehend the depth of a discussion or you just become rapped up on your personal belief.Can you find me the difinition of this adjective word.'Egotistic'.Thank you! lol
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 09:18 am Salamu Alaikum, Good Evening Mr Durgal. It is quite a usual for you to initiate such exemplary discussions in this notoriously vaporous forums. This is one of your moving topics. I have to say what you have said touched me deeply, but I don't think we agree on the aetiology of this ailment. To be precise, it is not the civil war generation that has exclusively this problem. I think it is the Somali people at large whereever they are raised who come to west for no touchable reason " of course apart from going to clubbing and enjoying themselves as they put it". Couple weeks ago I have been invited to have a dinner with some friends in Edgware Road " the Arabic street of London". While I was enjoying the exotic Arabic food with my fellow Arabs, there comes three beautifully clothed Somali girls. They were wearing the traditional Arabic dress, and to my astonishment they came to our table and asked politely whether they could join us? " I knew they were Somali, So I was quite hesitant to invite them ( I am not going to disclose the reason as to why not, it may need another writing of its won)" my friends said sure of course you can sisters. They spoke Arabic, so my fellow friend's guessed they were from the Gulf " because of their accent" . Anyhow, to cut the long story short, these magnificently dressed young Somali females turned to be Sharaamiit "prostitutes", and what dismayed me great deal was the fact that they told us they were Somalis " cause they thought I was not Somali". I said to them why on earth are you lying for; you are not Somalis, and they responded how do you know, I replied to them in Somali. Anyhow, this show even these who had the privilege to be away from Somalia when the civil war broke out from Somalia behaved exactly to those you have indicated being victims of Somali civil war. By the way, we " those who are aware of the problem" should try to educate our fellow young Somalis in the west whatever the cost is. As you comely put it; the west got what they have planned for, it is up to us to defy they agenda and try to help our people. There is bountiful resources we can utilise to undertake this mammoth task. May Allah help Somalis. United We Stand. DrWho London Drwho@pediatrician.com
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 09:54 am Why were you hesitant Dr.Who? when you said you did not want them to joint you.did you know what they were upto,already? I agree with you and Durgal. Nice piece by the way. May Allah Bless our people.
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 10:03 am where is the culture? These angry guys who seem to defend somali culture, please wake up. Somali culture is gone and doesnt exist anymore. What has replaced it? that is what you should be talking about. Evil iyo ceey iyo balaayo baa a badashey
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 10:42 am I TOTALLY AGREE WITH aLIPAPA. SOMALIS ARE REALLY HARD TO CONVINCE. WHERE IS THE CULTURE YOU HAVE.
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 11:10 am To Durgal and Dr.WHo I do concur-to a certain point. Somali culture,particularly in the west, is indeed lying upon its death bed if not in its last throes,there is no doubt in that. But it is here that I draw attention to a disparity in opinion;it is not necessarily the Somali people as whole that are undergoing this but principally the younger generation-a younger generation that faces an onslaught of foreign influences.These unfamiliar values, customs and lifestyles often become the beautiful and indeed deadly mistress of conformity, following them home, demanding of them their culture, religion and morals for the heady recompense of acceptance. On a positive note, referring to your rather disheartening anecdotes,there truly are Somali youth out there who have not fallen into this repetitive cycle and have come upon success. And on the subject of our culture as a whole...well, as I can go on forever on the subject I shall leave you with a quote. Each civilization has its own kind of pestilence and can control it only by reforming itself. Dubos, René
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 11:55 am Bismilaahi rahmaani rahiim... I've not read all the messages but I've read some of them...and what I've read so far made an impact on me.... Maybe I should read what you all have written.... So that I won’t make any mistake when I write a message my self… You all know the problem and you know how to solve it...but yet you hesitate.why...as alipapa said we wouldn’t have this so-called problem. If we had a culture to biggen with.... Ask your selves what is culture? I’m sure that you don't have any intentions on listening to what I have to say... But just give it few min....you may learn a thing or two...or maybe you won't learn anything...the decision is up to you... The problem isn't really dhaqan guur...it's not.and what I can't understand is how you can blame the "Americans"...cues one is responsible for his/hers actions...and why do we as people and I will make an exception by saying..."we as people". Cues we aren't a people we never were a people and I have very strong doubts about if we ever will be a people...why do we blame others...why can't we be strong enough to see our flaws and do something about it...we love to point fingers and say " this was the Americans …bla bla bla”… The real issue we should focus on is to give the Somali people self-confidence cues that is exactly what some of us miss …and some of you mentioned that the coos to this problem is due to the lack of religion…but tell me what is religion… I will continue later cues right now I have to hit the road… ps. I'm not a proffesor in eng so don't comment my bad grammar..... 
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 12:01 pm what is religion?! loool. You certainly know how to make me laugh. But in all I agree with durgal,mo-man,and dr.who.-the 3 wise men of somalinet.
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 04:26 pm Salam All This thread is thought provoking but, theirs one thing i dont understand. I've noticed that people keep repeating the WORD "Culture". What i'd like 2 know what do u guys/gals mean by "Culture" i hope u dont mean RELIGION. If so i dont think Culture is the best word 2 refer religion. Theirs things in the somalian culture which contradicts with our beliefs. Just wanted 2 clear up things. As 2 the topic itself i'll be commenting on it later on inshallah. If i've offended any1 please forgive and anything good i've said is from Allah(swt) and anything bad is from me. Your Sister in Faith Muslimsista SAlam All
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| | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 08:31 pm basra, Egotistic is kind of attitude that makes you not to see the goodness and beauty of others and makes you so self-centered and so obsessed with yourself up to a point that you hardly comprehend what others are saying. And in case you wondering who would be good example or the best candidate taken as example, please look no further--just see yourself. I swear i mean it. I have never seen a bitch so egotistic as you. NEVER! . You are so-obsessed with yourself that i am afraid of you will make love with yourself some day to come. Back to topic at hand, what is the depth you are talking about that i missed when i clearly oulined my opinion of the question raised by a hypocrite who is searching what was there to begin with?. For your fucking info, Somali culture is the worst culture that any society can have. It messed up from very begining. And that is why we are laughing stock in the eyes of the whole damn world by lacking law and order in 11 years time . Somali culture has the most destruction elements that any culture can combine namely : greed, intolerance, hypcrosity, ignorance, jealousy, envy, weakness, lack of persistence, lack of consistence, lack of discipline, cowardness, false proud. Let me put it, simply, we are lacking any characteristic can make good individual. The sooner we realize and try to correct our illness the better. It is time we admit we are destined to fail unless we change the way we live, percive things and see the whole damn world. This fucking culture of ours simply doesn't work. It is time we learn from other cultures. it is time we compare and contrast our stupid culture to others and see where we are. And try to answer why we are lagging behind in every aspect of life. And please before you judge me with your two inches brain, think twice. Walaahi you or any other novice can't judge me with that chicken brain of yours. I can be the most sotisphicated human on the damn planet.Make no mistakes for seeing my down playing and my lousy postings. yet rest assured if your try to read alipapa posting with no bias and prejudice "you will find me from time to time". It is time for you to ponder about the above words. I know what i am saying doesn't help you or probably doesn't make you any sense to you since you are so egotistic that you can't read any of your critics. But hey, i am just writting it JUST FOR THE RECORD. You are probably thinking that i am trying to bring you down or have something against you. But then again do i care what you think?. Alipapa
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 12:01 am nothing is ever too late (atleast i hope so)...those of us who made it in the west can cultivate a new generation of reasonable and well oriented kids back at home....the civil war generation shows the weekness and strenght of our society.....i personally think we have produced enough mind power (think.tank) to lead somalia and it's young into new era....however sacrifices must made and unfortunately that's to be where we fail....we might succeed as individuals but we never seem to connect as group....at this stage in it's history somalia has two choices...go down like titanic and rise up like shining star...and it now all depends how things go in mainland somalia...the diasporo can't exist without Somalia it'self.
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 04:01 pm Great feed back. Dr.Who recognizes the problem and expands it by including somalis who were culturely isolated from the civil war. Great observation. MN Man narrows down our subjects to the younger generation, which seems fair. Others deny that we have culture at all. Some people are rightfully concerned about religion more than culture. Even though all these observation have their merits the fact remains that they do not change the overall implications of the subject in discussion. Before I continue let me pose the problem in different manner. If a Somali kid starts high school today, and in four years he is unable to go good college, would it be fair for him or her to blame the system. In other words if we were to isolate the "Magic factor" would it be the system or his or her culture,regarless of whether his father sits at caffes? Have we ever had a culture? Does somalia have a pure culture? This is an idiotic question and serves no purpose at all in this discussion. It is like someone who laughs at the glow of sword which would kill one eventually. Let's follow this question into a logicall conclusion. Imagine we say Somalia never had a culture, and we know that we are in a big mess culturely, at least those of us in the West, so question becomes where would a cultureless people go? The person who posed this question thinks that we should imitate the Jews, because they are successfull in America. This is not only against Islamic teachings but it defies logic and intellect. In addition Such statement can only originate from a shallow and illiterate mind. This is the prove. I'll use this oppurtunity to answer another concern too; that is we should concern more on religion than a culture. Let me start by saying culture is nothing more than negotiotion between man's Heart and his surroundings. In other word it is a product of man's sense of right and wrong and constraint which his environment poses on him. On the other hand religion is exclusive only to man's Heart. This perfectly explains why many muslims change when they come to the West ,which is different environment. So what I am saying is that we should take seriously the other component of the culture, the ENVIRONMENT we live in. We could use religion as base for screening, what enters and what gets rejected. In short, I believe that we should rediscover Islam if we are planning to survive. Modern cultures are Organic they are by-product of man and his envirnment. The difference between them is that some will be consumed by other,and the end those who remian have one things in common inner strength which is built not by imitation but by sound religion.
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 05:24 pm Ali papa Whatever! lol
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 09:22 pm Durgal, I quote "Shallow minded and illiterate." Aren't these two big words to define on someone who merely stated their point of view? Besides, your definition of culture is too opaque. Culture is defined as the material and spiritual traits of any social group, thus language, tradition, custom, folklore, ritual, and religion are all considered to make up a distinctive culture. Also, environment is not a sub group of culture, but rather it's an all comprising parent, that constantly influences other culture. For instance; you may hear the western environment, which in essence means, that the western environment includes many distinctive cultures, which in their turn carry other sub-cultures. Back to the topic, I honestly don't see why most people are quite fed up with being a Somali! Maybe because of the civil-war? Or exposure to other highly developed social structures? Anyhow, if someone should be giving up an identity, I believe it should have been those who're born outside of Somalia. Matter of fact, I can pass under many different identities besides that of a Somali. Yet again, I stick to it for one reason, I have never seen a better alternative. In fact all the cultures in the world have their hidden ills, and their social decays if you carefully study them. Moreover, I remember there were times when I saw a Somali, I would consider myself that I met a family, eventhough language and other barriers were always possible. Anyhow, that's what culture is all about. Currently, the problem is the civil war that's ravaging back home, and I believe the civil war had just been doing some structural adjustments, so as to correct some ill-conceived notions that the society found itself upon. Furthermore, it's not only Somalia, but the whole African continent is going under these adjustments now or maybe later, and it's for the greater good of brighter future, of which we can be proud of. Besides, does one think most of the great societies in this world haven't had some sort of soul searching experience (Civil war) before they reached this level of development! Of course, there were many wars, genocides, and atrocities commited to reach a civilized consensus. However, I admit our soul searching came about in a different global village time, where everone sees everybody else. Therefore, don't just lose hope, we're soul searching in our own way, and culture is not to be blamed for our calamity. But, the blame is on a far more complex system called STATE, state being a political structure that traditional societies can't easily adjust to, so we're finding in our own way (killing) a political system that fits and levels with our norms and culture, not the one the colonial powers thought would be the best for us! Ooops
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| | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 11:47 pm Y'all writing essays but the question was "IS OUR CULTURAL MESSED UP"..one word YES. Unfortunately the question didnt ask us to elaborate therefore O wont. BUT for those who dont know WHY, thats for us (those who do know) to keep on knowing ..and for the rest of u guys..to find out! Bye bye...
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 09:57 am Gigi you are right, the question was whether our culture is messed up or not. I was merely reacting to the charges of not having a culture in the first place. Sagit we are definning culture the same way. You used social science definition and I used my observation. For instance I separated the sources of culture into two, man's sense of right and wrong which is his religion, and his surroundings which various from one place to another. The social science definition says "material and spritual traits of social group". I don't like shifting the blame to the state, who is the state anyway? Isn't it a reflection of its subjects? What you are saying may be technically right but it is not the right argument for the discussion at hand SINCE WE ARE TRYIING TO MAKE SOMALIS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR MISTAKES. On the other hand If we say that our culture is in a mess because the balance between the two components of culture shifted in favor of the environment which is leading us into our destruction then we need to stop and reassess our whole outlook in life. In other words we should start emphasizing the importance of religion so that we shift the balance into our favor agian. How? We can learn from the Masters of pyschological aspects of the religion. However, before we do that two things must be emphasized. First, we must take a serious note on the complexity of man's behaivior. Second, we should all remember that nothing comes to us unless we make it happen. In the first case the Quran puts tremendous emphasis on the need for a man to reflect before its too late and what awaits him if he fails to comply. Despite the huge emphasis man still comes up short and follows his desire. In the second case the Qur'an says it all: WA ANA LAYSA LIL INSANI ILAA MAA SACAA ( man only gets what he deserves and works for). Clearly, these are difficult issues which Muslim generations before us treated comprehensively and it is wise for us to take advantage of this literature. Of all the islamic figures who treated the pyschological aspect of the religion, 11th century jurist, theologian, and Sufi master Abu- Hamid Al Ghazzali seems to stand alone both in terms of insight to the spiritual crisis of ordinary man and effective communication with layman in curing his problems. Here is an excert from Claud Field's translation of Al-Ghazzali's Alchemy of Happiness: The world is like a table spread for successive relays of guests who come and go. There are gold and silver dishes abundance of food and perfumes. The wise guest eats as much as it sufficient for him, smells the perfume, thanks his host, and departs. The foolish guest, on the other hand, tries to carry off some of the gold and silver dishes, only to find them wrenched out of his hands and himself thrust forth, disappointed and disgraced. We may close these illstrations of the deceitfullness of the world with the following short parable. Suppose a ship to arrive at a certain well-wooded island. The captain of the ship tells the passengers he will stop for few hours and that they can go on the shore for short time, but warns them not to delay too long. Accordingly the passengers disembark and stroll in different directions. The wisest, however return after a short time and find the ship empty, choose the most comfortable places in it. A second band of passengers spend a somewhat longer time on the island, admiring the foliage of trees and listening to the songs of the birds. Coming on board, they find best places in the ship occupied, and have to content themselves with less comfortable ones. A third part wanders still farther, and, finding some brilliantly coloured stones, carry them back to the ship. Their lateness in coming on board compels them to stow themselves away in the lower parts of the ship, where they find their loads of stones,which by this time have lost all their brilliancey,ver much in the their way. The last group go so far in their wanderings that they get quite out of reach on the captain's vioce calling them to come on board, and at last he sails away without them. They wander about in hopeless conditionand finally perish of hunger and fall prey to wild beasts. The first group represents the faithful who keep aloof from the world altogether and the last group infidels who acre only for this world and nothing for the next. The two intermidiate classes are those who preserve their faith, but entangle themselves more or less with vanities of things present. In the same book Al-Ghazzali compares the world to shadow. He notes, " The deceitfull character of the world comes out in the following ways. In the first place, it pretends that it will always remain with you, while as matter of fact it is slipping away from you, moment by momemt, and bidding you farewell, like a shadow which seems stationary, but is actually always moving."
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 12:52 pm As a Somali living in Australia for the past decade and half, let me tell you that we are experiencing similar problems like our brothers and sisters in North America.Young people with little or no previous education + mothers (never been to school) + racist economic rationalist leaders = Ghetto. However, Durgal is either drunk or stoned by claiming those adults who brought those children were cultured. What culture? They brought with them a violent abusive culture. Many parents don't even know the basics of how to discipline their children, for many, they will opt for physical punishment rather than a peaceful dialogue. These kids lack skills such a solving conflicts (conflict resolution, anger management) with the wider community. I have seen parents who verbally and physically assualt their young ones. I hope this is not part of Somali culutre in your part of Somalia. What culture do those parents possess? A war mentality with blind tribal hatred. Most of those young people would experience hardships, some would succeed, but they would definately be those who would unearth the lost Somali culture.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 02:32 pm Durgal You are confusing Religeon and Culture.Your Tittle reads "is our Culture messed up".But you seem to emphasize on Religeon and preachings.All i have gathered from your responds and proof read them,i only picktake your stipulations on the embrassing of Islam and its teachings.Culture has nothing to do with your debate.It is for that essence that i am left confused! lol
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 07:47 pm Hey durgal great discusion man, and it looks this is been going on for a while but here i come: I am not going to answer the question of the topic but instead I will talk from my experience. It is unfortunate that somali ppl hate even their own kind, for example you have a conversation with someone and they will tell you that: hey where I live there are no somali ppl living,or the school i go to etc like that is a bad thing...... personally i live in building with a punch of somali pple(thought that i don't know the most of them)i would not trade for anything, i can live my door open, and come back without worries!! The point i am making is we are the future of our people and our country "somalia". It is upto us to make the change!! Help the less fortunate ones, reach out the young ones, encourage them to go better schools, have one community, one voice.. Some ppl here will say this is just talk, well itis not!! I personally know some ppl in here are allready doing something, but we all have to have responsability to get the words out to the next person.. Let's not critisize no one!! But help one another...Peace. PS I KNOW WHERE THAT UGLY FACE SIGN ON SOMALIA CAME FROM, BUT FOR SOME REASON I CAN'T GET IT OUTTA THERE, AND IS GETTING ON MY NERV! JUST IGNORE IT, IT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING.
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| | Monday, March 12, 2001 - 07:52 pm PLEAS IGNORE THE LAST PART OF MY POST, THERE WAS SOME SIGN ON THE WORD SOMALIA, THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT, BUT IT IS NOT ON THERE ANYMORE SO IT IS ALL TO THE GOOD!! LATER..
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 01:56 am Salaamacaleykum, Walaalayaal!! AAd iyo aad ayaan ugu farxay, markaan aqristay waxaad qorteen, aad iyo aad ayaan allah ugu mahad noqoy, sabaabtoo ah wuxuu iga dhigey soomaali. walaalyaal, soomaalida dhibka haysato waa isku mid, meelwalba oo ey joogaan. Dhaqankeena wuxuu ku dhumaayaa aan idiin sheegaa, Afkeena hooyo ayaan ka tagnay, oo idinka sidaas u aqlibadan ayaa afkale oo ajnebi ah ku hadlaayo.. Hadaadan ku hadli karin, ama qori karin looqadaada hooyo, dhaqankiina messed up ayuu noqonayaa... Mida labaad, Waan wada ognahay dhibka nahayso kuligeenba, laakiin waxa aan ka qaba karno, oo suluushin ma u sameynoyno dhibkaas.. halka mid oo aan dhaqankeena ku haysankarno, oo aan soomaali ku noqonkarno waxeythay, in aan wadeenkeena u noqo, oo aan wadan keena dhisano, Yaa Illaahey yaqaan... Ma idinlatahay in aad dhaqan rasmi ah ku lahaa kartiin, idinkoo jooga wadamadaan, walaalayaal?? Maxaan ugu hadleynin in aan wadenkeenii ku noqono, oo dadkii wax bartey ey u noqdaan horseed kuwa kale oo yar-yar?? Waxaan layaabanahay, wadan dhan aan leenahay, oo hal dad leh, oo hal dhaqan leh, oo hal luuqad leh, cadaab iyo gacan hoorsasho aana rabnaa... Salaamacaleykum...
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 03:45 am CHAPTER III THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS WORLD THIS world is a stage or market-place passed by pilgrims on their way to the next. It is here that they are to provide themselves with provisions for the way; or, to put it plainly, man acquires here, by the use of his bodily senses, some knowledge of the works of God, and, through them, of God Himself, the sight of whom will constitute his future beatitude. It is for the acquirement of this knowledge that the spirit of man has descended into this world of water and clay. As long as his senses remain with him he is said to be "in this world"; when they depart, and only his essential attributes remain, he is said to have gone to "the next world." While man is in this world, two things are necessary for him: first, the protection and nurture of his soul; secondly, the care and nurture of his body. The proper nourishment of the soul, as above shown, is the knowledge and love of God, and to be absorbed in the love of anything but God is the ruin of the soul. The body, so to speak, is simply the riding-animal of the soul and perishes while the soul endures. The soul should take care of the body, just as a pilgrim on his way to Mecca takes care of his camel; but if the pilgrim spends his whole time in feeding and adorning his camel, the caravan will leave him behind; and he will perish in the desert. Man's bodily needs are simple, being comprised under three heads: food, clothing, and a dwelling-place; but the bodily desires which were implanted in him with a view to procuring these are apt to rebel against reason, which is of later growth than they. Accordingly, as we saw above, they require to be curbed and restrained by the divine laws promulgated by the prophets. Considering the world with which we have for a time to do, we find it divided into three departments - animal, vegetable, and mineral. The products of all three are continually needed by man and have given rise to three principal occupations - those of the weaver, the builder, and the worker in metal. These, again, have many subordinate branches, such as tailors, masons, smiths, etc. None can be quite independent of others; this gives rise to various business-connections and relations and those too frequently afford occasions, for hatred, envy, jealousy, and other maladies of the soul. Hence come quarrels and strife, and the need of political and civil government and knowledge of law. Thus the occupations and businesses of the world have become more and more complicated and troublesome, chiefly owing to the fact that men have forgotten that their real necessities are only three - clothing, food, and shelter, and that these exist only with the object of making the body a fit vehicle for the soul in its journey towards the next world. They have fallen into the same mistake as the pilgrim to Mecca, mentioned above, who, forgetting the object of his pilgrimage and himself, should spend his whole time in feeding and adorning his camel. Unless a man maintains the strictest watch he is certain to be fascinated and entangled by the world, which, as the Prophet said, is "a more potent sorcerer than Harut and Marut."* *Two fallen angels. The deceitful character of the world comes out in the following ways. In the first place, it pretends that it will always remain with you, while, as a matter of fact, it is slipping away from you, moment by moment, and bidding you farewell, like a shadow which seems stationary, but is actually always moving. Again, the world presents itself under the guise of a radiant but immoral sorceress, pretends to be in love with you, fondles you, and then goes off to your enemies, leaving you to die of chagrin and despair. Jesus (upon whom be peace!) saw the world revealed in the form of an ugly old hag. He asked her how many husbands she had possessed; she replied that they were countless. He asked whether they had died or been divorced; she said that she had slain them all. "I marvel," he said, "at the fools who see what you have done to others, and still desire you." This sorceress decks herself out in gorgeous and jewelled apparel and veils her face. Then she goes forth to seduce, men, too many of whom follow her to their own destruction. The Prophet has said that on the Judgment Day the world will appear in the form of a hideous witch with green eyes and projecting teeth. Men, beholding her, will say, "Mercy on us! who is this?" The angels will answer, "this is the world for whose sake you quarrelled and fought and embittered one another's lives." Then she will be cast into hell, whence she will cry out, "O Lord! where are those, my former lovers? God will then command that they be cast after her. Whoever will seriously contemplate the past eternity during which the world was not in existence, and the future eternity during which it will not be in existence, will see that it is essentially like a journey, in which the stages are represented by years, the leagues by months, the miles by days, and the steps by moments. What words, then, can picture the folly of the man who endeavours to make it his permanent abode, and forms plans ten years ahead regarding things he may never need, seeing that very possibly he may be under the ground in ten days! Those who have indulged without limit in the pleasures of the world, at the time of death will be like a man who has gorged himself to repletion on delicious viands and then vomits them up. The deliciousness has gone, but the disgrace remains. The greater the abundance of the possessions which they have enjoyed in the shape of gardens, male and female slaves, gold, silver, etc., the more keenly they will feel the bitterness of parting from them. This is a bitterness which will outlast death, for the soul which has contracted covetousness as a fixed habit will necessarily in the next world suffer from the pangs of unsatisfied desire. Another dangerous property of worldly things is that they at first appear as more trifles, but each of these so-called "trifles" branches out into countless ramifications until they swallow up the whole of a man's time and energy. Jesus (on whom be peace!) said, "The lover of the world is like a man drinking sea-water; the more he drinks, the more thirsty he gets, till at last he perishes with thirst unquenched." The Prophet said, "You can no more mix with the world without being contaminated by it than you can go into water without getting wet." The world is like a table spread for successive relays of guests who come and go. There are gold and silver dishes, abundance of food and perfumes. The wise guest eats as much as is sufficient for him, smells the perfumes, thanks his host, and departs. The foolish guest, on the other hand, tries to carry off some of the gold and silver dishes, only to find them wrenched out of his hands and himself thrust forth, disappointed and disgraced. We may close these illustrations of the deceitfulness of the world with the following short parable. Suppose a ship to arrive at a certain well-wooded island. The captain of the ship tells the passengers he will stop a few hours there, and that they can go on shore for a short time, but warns them not to delay too long. Accordingly the passengers disembark and stroll in different directions. The wisest, however, return after a short time, and, finding the ship empty, choose the most comfortable places in it. A second band of the passengers spend a somewhat longer time on the island, admiring the foliage of the trees and listening to the song of the birds. Coming on board, they find the best places in the ship already occupied, and have to content themselves with the less comfortable ones. A third party wander still farther, and, finding some brilliantly coloured stones, carry them back to the ship. Their lateness in coming on board compels them to stow themselves away in the lower parts of the ship, where they find their loads of stones, which by this time have lost all their brilliancy, very much in their way. The last group go so far in their wanderings that they get quite out of reach of the captain's voice calling them to come on board, and at last he has to sail away without them. They wander about in a hopeless condition and finally either perish of hunger or fall a prey to wild beasts. The first group represents the faithful who keep aloof from the world altogether and the last group the infidels who care only for this world and nothing for the next. The two intermediate classes are those who preserve their faith, but entangle themselves more or less with the vanities of things present. Although we have said so much against the world, it must be remembered that there are some things in the world which are not of it, such as knowledge and good deeds. A man carries what knowledge he posseses with him into the next world, and, though his good deeds have passed, yet the effect of them remains in his character. Especially is this the case with acts of devotion, which result in the perpetual remembrance and love of God. These are among "those good things" which, as the Koran says, "pass not away." Other good things there are in the world, such as marriage, food, clothing, etc., which a wise man uses just in proportion as they help him to attain to the next world. Other things which engross the mind causing it to cleave to this world and to be careless of the next, are purely evil and were alluded to by the Prophet when he said, "The world is a curse, and all which is in it is a curse, except the remembrance of God, and that which aids it." Go to Chapter IV Return to Table of Contents all i can say is Durgal and Drwho . stop the tembering of scholarly treatise . As i have observed in these forumss, the most arrogant one is you as you neither admit. Brother are we here trying to show smartness or are we here to merely communicate our deeper feelings and attitudes towards what we desire to discuss. Do we have to resort to other scholars for guidence when in fact you have the same faculty of reasoning that they were endowed with? Let me tell you brother, so long as this mentality of anaa wax aqaaan is around in your head, and not only you but also to Drwho who is the master of cut and paste too, there wont be any truth revealed. You are simply reasserting what someone has already said. be creative nad think and think and think using your own faculty not others like Qasali or whatever ...
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 12:16 pm Plato your are simply an idiot? Why? Look at the sentence immediately before the long quote. Not only it acknowledges the source of the quote but also, it is highly consistent with content of my original argument. Besides I gave you the source, you read it, and now you are using it agianst me. If that is not foolishness I don't know what it is. Basra About the proof-reading, I didn't have enough time to edit them. It will be given some extra attention in the future. In relation to your remarks "Confusing........" I take it that you were genuine. In that case, this is a clear link between the original posting and the subsequent comments. In addition, I take pride in following an argument into a logical conclusion. I observed that culture,what we do and say, ultimately originates from two sources: our Heart,which is the base of all religions and our environment, all non-religious activities. Examples of non-religious activity include, the music we listen, parties we go, mixing up with other cultures, what we learn from our jobs and businesses. Now, since culture is a reflection of these two realities, man's inner state and what he acquires from his surroundings, It perfectly makes sense not to saperate religion from culture. In fact, sound culture can never exist without religion. The reason I posed this topic was to make that link. Why young Somalis are non-existent? Becuase, They rely more on environment than their faith. If this problem needs to be solved genuinely then rediscovering Islam would be the first priority. This is why I am steering the discusion into that direction. Besides you sound like someone who does not understand the inner consistency of Islam. I am not a shaykh nor Aalim, I am a normal college student who observes the world in different glasses.
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