     Durgal | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 03:35 pm
General Maxamed Abshir Kaahiye, ex-policeman, warlord, accomplished political turn-coat,and one of the most destructive political personalities in Somalia's political culture. Ironically however, in his speech at Minneapolis Sheraton, general Kaahiye blamed various political personalities without ever acknowledging his involvement in the collapse of Somali state. Kaahiye reflects the situation in Somalia " Markaan kaligey noqdo ayaan is waydiiyaa maxaa nagu dhacay, maxaan isu burburiney. Cimri baan joogay oo waligey kuma riyoon wadamada dariska ah ayaa Soomaaliya hoos tageysaa, oo ay waliba ka liidaneysaa." General Kaahiye abviously walks on fine line between hypocracy and stupidity. For instance when he says in the quote " Cimri baan joogay" and indeed he is an old in somali politics, and also "Waligey ku maan riyoon in wadamo kale aan hoostageyno" can be interpreted in two ways, first,if the general who has been around for a long time in Somali politics could not assess and predict what his political options were impregnant with then he can be dismissed as misguided fool if not outright stupid. Second, if the general lied about how his poltical choices contributed to where Somalia is today then he is hypocrat. Anyone who knows the general well can safely point the finger in second scenario. It is my veiw too that the general never understood really what the concept of Somalia means. For him oppurtunity was synonymous with Somalia. This is why even at the age of 80 he is willing to serve a tribal parliament.
Every body knows who this guy is, but even such hypocracy can be detected in his speech.(by the way you can look up his speech on the Somalinet news page) The general goes on to explian the source of Somalia's civil war "Waxaan uqaatay in dhibaatadan ay noogu dhacday inay tahay markuu ilaah nasiiyey nicmada aad ogtihiin, islaanimo khaalis ah .....) Any way he implies how God gave us all sorts of Nicmo and how we screwed up. LOOK WHO IS TALKING? If this statement were to come from some respected Shaykh who repeatedly have spoken out the anti-Islamic behavior in Somalia, then we may accept such conclusion, but if it comes from someone like the general who literally brought Somalia under the mercy of its neighbors then we can only say that he is an evil son of bitch who will be remembered by somali history in its dark pages.
Finally, Kaahiye executes himself by comparing the Tigre revolution to Bare's fall. He adds " Bal arka Itoobiya dagaal baa ka dhacay, maamulkii waa labaday, laakiin qarankii ma burburin." Just look closely Kaahiye's work between 1991-1993 and see if he is not testifying agianst himself. Agian he lies to his audiences. No wander why somalia is where it is today. Do we have better people in Xamar? By know you now my veiws about them too. This is why the new Somali generation needs to step up and save whatever is left their homeland, if not we will always be savages. |
| MAD MAC | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 12:29 am
Durgal
Actually saxib, Mohammed Abshir has a pretty good reputation, far better than most. He could have joined the Siad Barre government, kept his position and priveledge and lived the good life. But instead he went to prison and resisted an unjust regime. Furthermore, after 1991 he held the SSDF together and prevented it from fracturing the way the USC did (with the same consequences). Then, when Abdullahi Yusuf (the Darood Aideed) successfully challenged his leadership of the SSDF he actually stepped down instead of mobilizing militia to resist which would have caused bitter internecine conflict among the Majertain. Overall I consider Mohammed Abshir to be one of the most honourable men on the Somali political scene for the last 30 years. |
| Anonymous | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 01:21 pm
Mad Mac I could not agree with you more.it is true mohamed abshir have a good reputation considering about the other ones that just look for their interest. mohamed did not gain any famous and he kept his dignity and his life quite and humble |
| Xoogsade | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 05:18 pm
Durgal:
Blaming the steady degeneration of the Somali state on a man who who was incarcerated for fully a quarter of its unfortunate existence is perhaps to overstate the case.
There was a time when Maxamed Abshir was a disgrace to our culture and religion but even in those days he was a man of rock solid integrity. Witness his resignation as police chief when Cigaal wanted to make inappropriate use of the constabulary to secure electoral success for himself and his supporters.
He was unjustly imprisoned by Afweyne. Again Maxamed stuck to his principles and never accomodated The Beast after he was released. Certainly he could have made life more comfortable for himself if wished to do so by whoring his good name.
And in the last 10 years when the country has been laid low by the excesses of the bestial Mooryaann and the self-aggrandizing warlords he proved himself to be a statesman of olympian proportions: incorruptible, morally upright. His ambition, unlike the other power-hungry vultures, has been to make peace and promote social harmony and justice. Truly inspirational.
And yes he made up for all the drinks, short pants and whoring with white women in the 60's by entering the mosque and taking to his heart with true devotion the Holy Quran. He was a fixture in his neighbourhood Mawlac.
If you can give us some examples because you were short on specifics or are you allergic to all politicos of a certain age? |
| Durgal | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 06:43 pm
Guys remember January 1991 when Bare was overthrown and Xamar was divided between Manifesto Group and USC Military wing. Mahamad Abshir was the backbone of Manifesto group. Who elected Ali Mahdi? It was Manifesto group,and as result of that SNM declared independence. Somalia went into a total Civil war: Hawaiye vs Daarood. You can say Kaahye was acting in the best interest of one group by dividing people in Xamar, namely Habargidir and Abgaal but you can't say he was not, along with others responsible for the Hawiye vs Daarood civil war. Maxamed Abshir can not come here and say " look Ethopia did not break up but we, Somalia did" He was responsible for that through Manifesto group. Again you can argue he was acting in the best interest of his group, but not the best interest of Somalia. This is what I mean when I say he was the most destructive personalities in somali politics. Leon Trosky shortly before he was assasinated, thought that history would evenge him in his life long struggle with Stalin. He was right, Stalin today is remembered as most brutal dictator in human history. I will make sure that we list people who destroyed Somalia in its darkest pages. Its is our sole consolation. Look we need to set tone for future conduct in somali politics. By the way, it is clean debate |
| MAD MAC | Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 11:09 pm
Durgal
I think you overstate the case. The Manifesto group was, at the time, the driving political group in Somalia. In a sense the annointment of Ali Mahdi might have seemed precipitious, but Somalia had reached a cross-roads with the destruction of the Barre regime and it's Army on the run near Bahdhere. Also I think this was a deliberate effort to prevent the mecurial and perhaps psychopathic Aideed from making a bid at becoming Siad Barres raplcement, something no Somali wanted. Short of annointing Ibrahim Egal or perhps Tur as president (a highly unlikely development) the Isaaq were going to split anyway. There was no way you could throw crumbs to the SNM and expect them to hang around. Had the transition gone well you might have been able to co-opt them, but as things turned out there was no way to do that. Also, while Mohammed Abshir was a significant personlity in the Manifesto group, he was certainly not the only siginificant personality nor was he the only one who suppoerted Ali Mahdi's bid for the presidency. You might argue he should have forseen what would happen, but General Galal (Haber Gedir himself) also supported Ali Mahdi. So I think throwing all the blame on Mohammed Abshir is a little harsh and over-done.
Xoogsade - when was Mohammed Abshir tapping white women??? What white women are you talking about?? I never heard that one before.
I think it's a reach saying drinking is an affront to your culture - maybe your religion but not the Somali culture. I know A LOT of Somalis who drink, and there were both brothels AND bars in Hamer and Wanle Weyne when I lived in those two locations (and no I didn't frequent them, they were strictly off limits). |
| Skywalker | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 04:25 am
In reality, no one was against Ali Mahdi becoming President but when he included Maxamed Abshiir and Co., He lost his creditibility among the USC. The man who was responsible for the fall of Siyad was Gen. Aideed. He was the mastermind behind the capture of Xamar and the expulsion of Siyaad. If anyone deserved to be President it was him.
The Manifesto Group was the cause behind the secession of Somaliland. Before the capture of Mogadishu, a deal was struck between the Rebel Groups: SPM, SNM, USC. It was agreed that when Siyaad was overthrown that the 3 would come together and build a new govt. Ali Mahdi and the Manifesto group went against this agreement. Ali Mahdi and the Manifesto group recruited members of the very govt that was overthrowen.
Aideed was disappointed and left the capital soon after Ali Mahdi and the Manifesto group built and illegitimate govt. He headed off to Mudug. With in a few weeks, President Siyaad came back with his armies to Afgoye. Ali Mahdi and the Manifesto Group begged Aideed to come back and organize an army to confront Siyaad. They realized that there was no one General among them who could do it. Aideed did so willingly but he had the oppurtunity to make Ali Mahdi and Manifesto pay dearly. He could have asked for the Presidency and I am sure that no one among Manifesto would oppose as their lives were in danger. Maxamed Abshiir thought by playing Ali Mahdi against Aideed would allow Siyaad to recapture Mogadishu.
His goal was to make sure that there was no consensus among Ali Mahdi and Aideed. He did everything in his power to create conflict. He did suceed. But at what price ? No govt for 11 years, occupation of Somalia by Ethiopia, destruction of the state and national institution. If Manifesto did not create Ali Mahdi and his "govt", there would have been peace. The war would have ended probably by the end of 1991 and Somalia would have not been destroyed as it is now.
Skywalker. |
| Wadani | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 08:37 am
Skywalker, what you wrote is b.s. Somaliland decided on a seccession because USC could not deliver a national mandate period. Hawiye failed to establish a government then and NOW.
Mohamed Abshir is a true Somali hero, one of the few. |
| Xoogsade | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 06:10 pm
Durgal:
I always thought you were eccentric("more philosophers and economists, less engineers and doctors for Somalia" !!!!!!) but I never thought you were stupid. So it comes as a complete surprise to me that you have made an analysis of the causes of the downfall of the Somali state and have come to these conclusions. The logic is certainly impenetrable.
Maxamed Abshir is responsible:
1)For the inability of the Hawiye to steer the ship of state to safe harbour having effortlessly gained control of it?
2)For their fatal blunder in failing to share power?
3)For their grotesque genocidal agenda that was put into deadly practice from the very outset?
He has to be simultaneously superhuman and sub-human to bring about these results.
What you should have realized by now, if not by argument then at least by cruel experience, is that the "gospel of hatred leads to the death of a nation". Maxamed Abshir did not kill Somalia. Hatred, malice and envy and resentment killed Somalia. On the part of everyone leader and follower alike. To put the entire blame on man who is more blameless than most is not only unfair but grossly offensive.
You make a big fetish of your rejection of tribalism but only a mind blighted by the tribal cancer could entertain these ridiculous fallacies.
Mad Mac:
Somali culture has been steadily deteriorating for many years and was well and truly in decline by the time you got to Somalia. You always remind one of the parable of the "Three blind men and the elephant". Your brief tour of duty in Somalia was a good beginning in understanding Somalia. Always keep that in mind before you make any sweeping statements. It is true that alcohol was easily available in Somalia for god knows how long even though Somalis traditionally have viewed it and its consumers with deep loathing and abomination. In fact one's consuption of alcohol was considered, and is considered, a prima facie evidence of going to the dark side. Mind you they are not discriminated(fadareyn) against and they may even attain high position. It is just that the respect is not always there wahtever their achievements and attainments. And I believe that one of the reasons for the collapse of Somalia is our failure to stand up for our culture and religion. Imagine a rum factory and beer stores in a muslim country! |
| ahmedfutoyere | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 07:07 pm
SHUT THE FUCCK UP FOOLS. |
| SHAACIR | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 07:14 pm
DURGAL LET ME REMIND YOU THIS THE BACKBONE OF THE MANIFESTO GROUP WAS THE LATE AVVOCATO.ISMAIL JIMAALE OSOBLE ( MAY ALLAH BLESS HIS SOUL ), AN ABGAAL WELL RESPECTED AND ADORED. THEN HABAR GIDIR POLITICAL GIANTS LIKE GENTLEMEN, AHMED RAAGHE, DARMAAN WITH THE HELP OF GALAAL AND ABDIQAASIM TOOK THE LEADERSHIP OF MANIFESTO GROUP AND APPOINTED ALI MAHDI THE PRESEIDENT OF SOMALIA.
AIDID WAS THEN NOT EVEN IN THE PICTURE...YEAH I AGREE ALI MAHDI MADE SOME MISTAKES AND YEAH MOHAMMED ABSHIR WAS AFTER THE INTEREST OF HIS DAAROOD PEOPLE BUT WHATEVER HIS MOTIVES WERE..HAWIYE COULD NOT COME UP WITH CONSTRUCTIVE AND UNIFIED FRONT...WORSE THEY HAVE DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS LEFT AND THEY CAN'T EVEN TRUST EACH OTHER..THAT IS WHY STILL IN MOGADISHU YOU HAVE DOZENS OF FACTIONS WITHIN HABAR GIDIR, ABGAAL, HAWADLE AND MURASADE...... SO DON'T BLAME YOUR MISTAKES ON OTHERS AND STOP THIS PARANOIA ABOUT MAJEERTEEN ALWAYS CONSPIRING AGAINST HAWIYE....
HAWIYE NEEDS TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION COS THAT IS WHAT ALL SOMALIS ARE WAITING AND THAT COULD GIVE US SOME HOPE. |
| Anonymous | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 07:17 pm
don't blame this gentleman unless you have evidence ,Ali Mahdi was there Minneapolis few months ago who committed more destruction in Somalia ,Secondly Ali Mahdi went Ethiopia and met Aideed before event general Aideed launched his operation and they couldn't agree anything and Ali Mahdi left to Cairo Egypt..then Siad Barre call him to come Mogadishu and he did ,,after while Aideed forces advance captured Balcad and that time was when the manifesto group went Balcad to ask Aideed to halt his offensive and Siad Barre wants to negotiate and share the power but Aideed rejected the offer and said he must surrender ,,then the manifesto group went back to Mogadishu and that moment the firework began and Siad barre forces retreated and chased things became calm and suddenly Siad Barre forces came back to Afgoye that was when Aideed chase them and while Aideed busy,,,,the manifesto group appointed Ali Mahdi as interim president ..and the destruction continued from there...the tapes in Balcad negotiators manifesto and Aideed are available all the disscussion's happen between them,,,,, |
| Durgal | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 08:45 pm
Guys look, be rational and answer these questions. Did Mahammed Abshir do any thing that contributed the total disintegration of Somalia, particularly between January 1991 to Nov 1991? Can he come in minneoplis and say he had nothing to do with it? These are the two questions we are discussing, not somali politics, not anyone else. By the way the discussion is heating up. |
| Anonymous | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 07:49 am
ALI MAHDI WAS SENDING AN AIRPLANE TO PICK UP MOHAMED ABSHIR FROM KISMAAYO WHILE ABSHIR WAS ORGANIZING THE LAST DAAROOD OFFENSIVE.
THEY CAME TO AFGOOYE AND AIDID LAUNCHED HIS MOST POWERFUL OFFENCE ON DAAROODS AND EXPELLED THEM TO INSIDE KENYA. ABSHIR DISAPPEARED FOR GOOD FROM THE SCENES OF MOGADISHU AND WENT TO HIS HOMELAND IN BOOSAASO...NOW HE IS BACK THANKS TO THE ALWAYS RE-EMERGING MANIFESTO GROUP..I THINK IT'S GALAAL WHO IS THE BRAIN AND BACKBONE OF THIS GROUP.
ABSHIR IS AN OCTOGENERIAN WHO WILL DIE SOON, WHATEVER HE DID, HE WILL BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT BY THE ALMIGHTY. IT'S TRUE MOST OF DAAROOD PEOPLE WILL NOT REALIZE THEIR STUPIDITY AND RELINQUISH THIS DESIRE TO RULE AND DOMINATE SOMALI POLITICS BUT AS LONG AS WE HAVE HABAR GHIDIR AND ABGAAL FIGHTING, THEN LET THEM CONTINUE HAVE THAT DESIRE AND LET THEM PLAY.... |
| amaani | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:08 am
durgal please do not let your emotions mislead you, every somali person know that mohamed abshir is very respected man he never took part of the civil war and he was always trying to make a peace between somali warlords. and if he is like them he would not gave up his position as a leader in the eastern region. get your facts and do not tarnish this gentleman's picture |
| Durgal | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 03:44 pm
Political development is my favorate subject in all social sceince disciplines, which by the way not to be confused with BBC's political analysis. I also happened to excell at it, more than economics. Please follow the discussion and refute my proposition not with " I said " but with historical evidence. The question in discussion is, did Mahamad abshir constributed the disintegration of Somalia in any way? The short answer is yes. However,the long answer requires a much deeper and complex political analysis, the opposite of what the Media engages. But before I do that I must remind the veiwers that real politics is as complex as an organ operation. Most people would accept without question what doctors say, but when it comes to politics even the shoe maker has his own opinion. Let me make it short, and say that Mahamed Abshir is as guilty as Manifesto. In turn, any independent historian who constructs the civil war in somalia would trace its roots to the critical days of January 19-28, Bare's last days and the emergence of Manifesto group as political force. In other words Manifesto takes 80% of the blame, not Bare, and not Aideed. Aideed's behavior between Janauary 26, 1991 to early April 1991 can be seen as a rational spectator. Why? Becuase he did not have power. Manifesto group not only overthrew him, but it enjoyed the support of majority of Hawiyes, including the general's clan. So the interesting question here is why the general who was insignificant at the weeks following Bare's overthrow, and was not even in Mogadishu most of the time, became months later the most popular man in all hawiye clans. The short answer would be Bare's people showing up CEELKA BIYAHA. But that is Media explanation not a political science explanation. There has to be something more than that. To proceed from here, I'll lay out a chronology of events that could either implicate or exenorate Manifesto group. Then evaluate the consequences of Manifesto's political choices.
This is what Manisfesto did:
1. Manifesto starts double negotiation with Bare and Aideed, in the hope of overthrowing both. It convinves itself that it can achieve a smooth cooperation on both sides, particulary the new comer Aideed.
2. Discouraged by lack of cooperation on the part of Aideed, Manifest proceeds in two ways. First, it prepares its own Transitional Gov't. Second, it goes on the offensive by dividing the general's disciplined troops along the tribal lines.
3. Three it tries to shift the power to clan elders by compansating those who cooperated.
4. It attacks Jezz's SPM in order to eliminate Aideed's triangle alliance.
In all fronts, Manifesto was exceptionally successful. This is why the general become another man in Mogadishu. Ironically however, the same factors that brought Manifest to prominance have also dug them into a hole. Each one of the techniques it used had destructive consequence which not only outlived Manifesto but Aideed as well.
These are the effects of manifesto's political choices:
A. In building an interim administration, It elianated politically Reer Wuqooyi = divided Somalia.
B. By dividing the general's troops, it effectively ended the prospect of security in Mogadishu. Without law and order, Manisfest indirectly contributes tribal animosity. Professional criminals with guns, sick people got loose.
c. Cumar Jezz's attack ignates Hawiye vs Darood civil war.
The point I am trying to make is that somali'a fate was decided before Ceelka Biyaha. The most important political decisions were already made. No one could have changed the tide after april 8th, we can't even change things now. Manifesto lost an important battle and it will go down in Somali history as the MAN WHO DESTROYED SOMALIA. The success of revolutionary leader in power depends on how he senses and effectively deactivates any possible threats before they become reality. Manifesto never had that political instinct or imagination. It is important to note that there were some Somalis who understood what was happening and rightfully left the scene. We can safely say that those somalis understood what the concept of Somalia meant.
It is much more easier to know exactly Mahamed Abshir's activity in that crucial months and particulary his role in Manifesto's critical decisions. This can be effectively settled in a simple research, but it will far fatched not to find him guilty. This is what history does, it has the last laugh. One important notice try to refute the points I made with historical evidence. |
| Xoogsade | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 05:09 pm
Durgal:
I can predict that you will go far in this world because you have that most priceless gift of all -ignorance and arrogance compounded. Success is sure to follow as Mark Twain assures us. The added pomposity also goes a long way.
Maxamed Abshir MUUSE(not Kaahiye) seems to be something of a bogeyman for you and the scatter-brained assertions you posted here in no way proved to me this man did anything criminal.
I can clearly see that your purpose here is to whitewash Hawiye atrocities by shifting the blame elsewhere. But I can't figure out if you are a sincere dupe or a cunning strategist. |
| Governo | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 05:27 pm
Durgal most of the points you made are very logical ones but the main point was Manifesto group knew Barre regime will fall soon and their fear was general Aideed is another dictator coming to power and Somali people had enough for generals , Manifesto group did played their power ball but they didn't know it will be disaster one .....in that sense they might be guilt...I have seen the video tape Manifesto and Aideed...
and its was very true from the beginning Manifesto group never want Aideed to take over the country they were Scared....Manifesto power ball disaster |
| sheikh cabdi | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 06:02 pm
iam impressed at the way xoogsade refuting durgal. may be the posting i used to see in other pages where from an immitator. the image i got of xoogsade was a smart,and mean man,but this proves me wrong. anyways well done man.
durgal, i was surpised at first when i saw your posting "god bless america". eventhough there was nothing wrong with the literal meaning, it's not politically correct as a somali intellectual to be saying such thing.
now you are blaming mohamed and labeling him as a warlord? i think your accusation is unfounded.
your assertion that the snm declared independence as a result of the the manifesto government is absurd and laughable. the snm's long strugle was for independence , and this was convieved about fifteen years before the civil war.
mohamed abshir , unlike aideed, omar jezz ,morgan , and abdulahi usuf never participated in the clan wars.
i was amazed at your unfounded accusations, without any single tangable evidence. |
| Guuled | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 06:22 pm
To Xoogsade:
Hawiye atrocities????????????
Are you telling us that Hawiye have made more atrocities than the Darood???
Ask yourself why would the Hawiye want to kill the daroods in the first place?? where did this hatred come from??? why did they so ferociuosly hate the darood???
Why do no somali group(clan) like the darood??? |
| Wacaysle | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 06:52 pm
to Xoogsade
respond to the individual ,your skirmish to entire communities blinds your self ,Hawiye evicted from their land people like you idiot ,if you disputed the man deal with him don't splash your animosity to whole Communities ,,watch your language silly. |
| Durgal | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 10:57 am
Xoogsade, one time I am cunning strategist another time I am stupid, you don't have to decide either one. If I were pompous like you said I would have stressed for a while " How cunning I am " Any way you were close when you said "Are you allergic to all politicians of certian age." Yes and with exception of one man I have no respect for all Somali politicians, and rulers regardless of age. Go back and see all of my topics and see how consistent I was in this Issue. Our subject in here should only be the exception if he is innocent. Don't take my word for it do your own research.
Shiekh Cabdi, One thing is proven so far " The man who destroyed Somalia" what we need to do is find Mahamed Abshir's role In Manifest, particularly the crucial decisions. So far we know that he was an active member Manifesto in this critical period which Manifesto did all the damage. We may find him guilty or not guilty, but when all the smoke clears Somalis will have chance to go back and reflect what hit them, who hit them hard.
Governo, what matters is the result not the rationale, since political choices have human demensions. Manifesto never understood this, and why should they since Somali lives means nothing to them. I glad you see Mnaifesto as "Power Ball disaster" |
| T-GIRL | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 03:58 pm
Notice how there ain't one girl commenting on this topic.............
We're all busy getting our hair done while our men are breaking the nation apart....Piece by piece.......Verbally
DISGRACE |
| MAD MAC | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 04:07 am
Skywalker
First I disagree with several of your assertions. The actual tactical architect of the taking of Hamer was Galal, not Aideed. Aideed was certainly the dominant force in the USC, and the USC was certainly the dominant military force that ousted the Barre regime. But that's not too say that other contributions were inconsequential. Certainly the SNM and SSDF had major roles as well in securing the north of the country.
Aideed never relinquished command of the USC's military arm. He was with the forces in pursuit of the National Army forces near Bahdere when the Army counter-attacked. He was leading the forces which successfully repelled this attack around Afgooye. He was never recalled from Mudug because he wasn't there. You're painting him as som esort of savior or military genius which is a gross over-simplification.
Furthermore (and the part I really disagree with) is your charecterization of Aideed as humble or otherwise possessing altruistic charecteristics. Aideed was a vicious, brutal man who's sole ambition was to replace Siad Barre. The Somali people did not rebel against one dictator with the ambition of having another. The objective, as originally conceived, was a more pluralistic society IAW Somali history and social components.
Xoogsade
You are making the mistake of assuming that the Islamic religion IS the Somali culture. This has never been true. African States never embraced Islam with the virulance found in the Middle East. There has always been more accomodation in Africa than found north of the Sahara.
But since you mention it, you ask me to name a Muslim country where I could imagine a rum factory or beer store. Well, a rum factory is a reach, since that requires sugar producers which Desert countries are not famous for. But as for beer store (place where alcohol is both legal and available for purchase and consumption) hmmmmm where do I begin. Let's start West and work our way East. Morocco, Algieria, Tunisia, (not sure about Libya) Egypt, Syria, Turkey, UAE, Dubai, Bahrain, (not sure about Iraq), Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia. I left out Bosnia because it's not a Muslim majority country and I left out Albania because describing them as Muslims is a reach. I also left out all of sub-saharan Africa. I know A LOT of Somalis and the majority drink alcohol, although many keep it secret and pretend they don't. You might call it the dark-side or whatever, and certainly I don't disagree that Islam has had a strong influence on Somali culture. But Somali culture does not equal Islam, that's for sure. Never did, never will. Somalis have their own unique blend of Middle Eastern and African cultural traits.
Durgal
Nothing personal dude, but your analysis is, in a word, whacked. Aideed was the commanding General of the USC's military arm all during the 90s and into 91 until it fractured. Even you say that Aideed was not cooperating with the Manifesto group. Then to which political arm did he subordinate himself too?? Aideed was a general. Generals who are active generals do not participate in politics - do not aspire for office. That can come later, but not while they are active soldiers. Aideed subordinated his desires to no one is the truth. The truth is there are lots of players in the Somali civil war - but Aideed is one of the most evil, insidious characters of the lot. History will remember Aideed as the lowest of the low.
Mohamed Abshir, on the other hand, will be remembered overall in a positive light.
BTW the war between Darood and Hawiye was ignited by the conflict between Darood government supporters (mostly Marehan) and the Hawiye dominated USC. Omar Jess had a cameo role until after things were well under way.
T-Girl
Don't worry, MAD MAC will put humpty dumpty back together again. I got a plan. |
| Observer | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:35 pm
MadMac, you're dead wrong. USC ousted Siad Barre? Buddy you need to stick to drinking your BUDWIESER before you comment on Somalia. The facts are the SSDF disintegrated in 1984 and in 1985 ceased to exist. On the other hand, the USC entered the war in late 89. The military wing was helped by the SNM wich provided the ammunition and the arsenal. Now if you trace back, 2 thirds of the national army was in the north, the heavy artillary was in the north. The fighter jets and aircrafts were in the north. The landmines were all in the north. All these elements were terminated by the SNM, what the USC did was pin the tail on the DONKEY. Further more, it was no the objective of the SNM to fight in the south because we had no business there. So, don't try and sugar coat the TRUTH! |
| studente | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:03 pm
allo. I happen to be a politcal science/economy/business majore at Duke and must say that this discussion is quite mind boggling. Most of the history of somalia I look up is about the famine, the economy and such but there really is no detailed politcal history of Somalia I can find-such of the gent you happen to be talking about right know-never heard of him. WHERE oh WHERE can I enlighten myself of this somali political culture i am so ignorant in. |
| studente | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:06 pm
p.s. even a gaal (no offense mad mac)seems to know more than me-please do help. |
| Mad Mullah | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 05:03 pm
Mad Mac is doing his work put little information than collecting his intelligence work , when are you go'ing to write book about Somalia or its strictly intelligence work....leave us alone |
| AHMED | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:32 pm
MAD MAC.
I agree not only CIA can spy others can do too.
I told you that the CNN owner did not like Bush.
see the U.S.A. economic. The Russian and Chinese spy business after several months of power. He will continue to undermine till he cry. It all started when "their" favorite president candidate lost against Bush. The fact that 90% of white men's chose Bush did not make things easier and worst mistake Bush did not visit Israel till now.
Durgal
It is time you find out another net-name and apology to write down your tribe. you damaged this forums more than these teen ages. |
| Xoogsade | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:38 pm
"A drunkdard is a dead man
And a dead man is drunk"
Dear oh dear Mad Man, you are truly a misguided soul. Perhaps you have taken too literally the old imperial adventurer's musings about Somalis being the Irish of Africa, the Irish being your lush ancestors, and imagined the analogy to extend to a similarity in drinking culture. Allow me to reassure you that we Somalis do not and have never had the drinking of alcohol as part our culture and heritage. The drunken inhabitants of that verdurous Emerald isle, like all white folk consider drinking to be a harmless and diverting experience. As Somalis and muslims we beg to differ. It is a very deadly and destructive habit that has caused so much misery, heartache and defeat on so many unsuspecting souls that our great liberating religion of Islam outlawed it. Outlawed wine spirits(not rum, you ridiculous ignoramus; I was referring to the rum factory in Jowhar!) . Wine spririts made of various fruits were commonplace in the middle east until they were banned by Islam. I cannot make any claim about the practices of Somalis before Islam but after they embraced Islam, Somalis thereafter booted alcohol into touch and scrupulously observed the prohibition against this most noxious and polluting of substances. Until the white devil came on the scene, that is, and introduced this vile poison and released into our midst.
Eventually the white devil changed the makeup and outlook of Somalis to the extent that we elected leaders who were open consumers of alcohol. And today you tell me that there are great many Somalis who drink alcohol. Of course you are correct. But I found a great deal of amusement in your statement that you know a lot of Somalis and they all drink? Perhaps all of your friends are drinkers? And from that you deduced that all Somalis are drinkers or at the very least that "boozing it up" is considered hunky-dory in respectable Somali circles? You remind one of the wealthy man who wanted to do a quick survey to find the level of poverty in the US and went to a country club. Needless to say he came to the conclusion that poverty has been eliminated in the US. Perhaps the Somalis who would befriend a White Man (and one who boasts of the countless Somalis he has killed, unjustly,) are not exactly poster boys for Somali culture and values, no? I think not!
I might also make the point that one hopes that Africans would never embrace Islam "virulently". There is nothing "virulent" about Islam because its embrace does not bring hostility and malignancy. Rather it is the the faith that would liberate the human heart from hate and malice and servility to the dark, ugly impulses that lie within the human breast. Impulses of greed, pettiness, wants and appetites.
The Somali culture is to be muslim. The true Somali is the one who imbibes the teachings of that faith from a very yound age and continues always to struggle for the summit of belief and faith. It is indelibly marked in his soul and his conciousness. It is his inheritance that can never be taken from him. Somaliness and Islam are intertwined. To be Somali is to muslim.
Also those countries you have mentioned have muslim populations but are not Islamic countries. They are no more Islamic than Canada. In all likelihood, less Islamic! And in Somalia we never had anything approximating Islamic government. Nothing that was even remotely responsive to the needs of its Islamic populace. We had a time when our government was more Bolshevik than Islamic under the unmentionable Afweyne, the Supreme Opportunist. This is the man who dealt a fatal blow to our culture and traditions in all their positive glory while only retaining the most negative and malignant aspects of it, namely divisive tribalism( as opposed to the old-style, positive tribalism of recognition and cooperation between lineages). |
| Xoogsade | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:39 pm
Durgal:
Please read carefully. I never called you stupid although perhaps I should have for you betray a disturbing lack of comprehension skills.
I am sure you are distressed that this Wacaysle rodent and his ilk are destroying your masterfully crafted strategy whose goal was to deflect the blame for the horrors that were undertaken by the Mooryaan to someone else. When I called your bluff and informed you that this man Maxamed Abshir was incarcerated during the time you alleged that he was actively destrying the country you changed tack. You telescoped the period of the man's alleged malfeasance into a few short months in 1991. Of course you knew it would sound ridiculous and somewhat insulting to present that the whole massed ranks of Hawiye could be so handled and manipulated by an elderly Majeerteen man so you also had to cloak it in this Opaque, sinister sounding, cabalistic, mysterious Manifesto organization. Otherwise all the old notions of Majeerteen superiority-Hawiye Inferiority woud rear their ugly heads. And who would have Maxamed Abshir as a latter day Suldaan Cali Yuusuf with all the Hawiye, at the summit of their triumph, dancing to his tune as he wilfully manipulates them hither and tither unleashing them somewhat illogically against his kinsmen and then setting them upon each other, brother against brother.
Of course this would not do. But then just how logical is it that this omnipotent, shadowy manifesto group could bring about the genocide that happened in Muuqa-disho. How could these few dozen unarmed harmless, benign figures set the Hawiye on each other and snatch away their victory? Is this not the same Manifesto group whose members consisted of Professor Abyan who was gleefully set upon by homicidal hordes of slavering Mooryaan animals. Perhaps his decades of obdurate opposition to Afweyne should have saved him, no? Or perhaps he should have been in a MANIFESTO chamber somewhere contemplating a way to stoke and inflame Hawiye passions so as to bring about their downfall and his own death in a thoroughly self-sacrifing, Kamikaze gesture of exceeding machiavellian genius.
Or how about that other fulminating Manifesto conspirator, whose hatred for his nation was such that he designed the hitherto universally loved "Blue with a white star" motif of our national colours. Who was so much in Afweyne's pocket he spent the last year of Siyaad's rule in jail. How did this man, a member of the malevolent, all-powerful shadowy Manifesto movement, come to be tortured for two months straight that he is now mostly dead here in Toronto, I hear. Another Kamikaze politico who frittered away his life so that he could lead the Hawiye into their grotesque and fatal blunder.
Now Mr Durgal, do you still mean to tell me that this pitiful group, let alone Maxamed Abshir Muuse, is responsible for all the murder, violence and strife and the extraordinary events that convulsed Muuqa-disho, and hence our nation? Does this really make sense to you?
Of course it does not. You must search within your heart for the answer to that question. The answers will depress you. They will come down on you like bitter, crushing blows on your conscience and your soul. Hatred and malice, undying and age-old, have laid our nation low. You of all people, with your conceit of elevation of mind and spirit, enlightenment and education should not be engaging in these tawdry and squalid rationalizations of the deeds of truly demonic and ugly humanity. Steel yourself with stern resolution against the dreary doctrines of Groupthink that compells you to fly the tribal banner and advance its arguments when these arguments are written in red blood letters and the flag had brought nothing but disaster wherever it has flown. Keep your heart devoid of hatred and your mind on the quest of national renewal under the banner of justice and brotherhood; not fear-mongering ("Ethiopia is our enemy" ), pragmatism and bankrupt nationalism. |
| Xoogsade | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:47 pm
Trouble-Girl (or is it freudian slip and you mean to say Tribal-Girl):
From now on please refrain from gate-crashing places where the eminent and male worthies are discussing important things? Man talk in here dear.
I like your wit and vivacity and sheer girliness. Here I would like your silence!!
It is just not appropriate my dear girl, ;-) . |
| Xoogsade | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 06:48 pm
Trouble-Girl (or is it freudian slip and you mean to say Tribal-Girl):
From now on please refrain from gate-crashing places where the eminent and male worthies are discussing important things. Man talk in here, dear.
I like your wit and vivacity and sheer girliness. But in here I would like your silence!!
It is just not appropriate my dear girl, ;-) . |
| Sharmaarke | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 07:42 pm
Durgal
You never give up.. I know there is no cure for you sicknes.. and that is stupidy.. Your here to proclaim to the world a Single Man who is no other then that Mystic-come-politician Mohamed Abshir engineered all the Mayhem,genocide and destruction your Mooryaan Tribes-man and their savege leaders like your Hero Aideed commited..
What happened to your Mighty Culture and Higher Intelengecy of Your Mooryaan's..that is what you claim(Thanks to America...) Why the Victim Mentality? are You Admiting to inferiority that Single man without means or power can instruct your whole Mooryaarns to commit such horible acts.. Are you not doing disservice to your Tribes-man painting them this way?..
If you have any sense you would learn a trade and leave politics.. your better when your not talking as you tend to inflict more damege to your cuase then your intended target..
Forget about the past tell Us How is your Uncle Abdi-qaasim is doing.. Have you informed him to be carefull and not to be led astray by Mohamed Abshir? |
| Sis | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 08:15 pm
Xoogsade,
politics doesnt just belong to men only.
girls do participate and give their of opinions.its just somalia`s is totally screwed up and thats what T-girl was pointing out to you.
in Case you didnt notice it were the likes of you(oh how was it you put it "men worthy" ) who destroyed Somalia and still doing it.
may be its time somali women should take somalia`s matters in hand.
BTW i dont see why sharmarke and you are attacking durgal here.ppl can have different opinion,you guys said the right things about maxamed Abshir but isnt it time you stopped there instead of getting into Qabiil clashes here?!
Dont assume i am Hawiye,i am MJ. |
| sool | Monday, April 09, 2001 - 08:35 pm
Xoogsade and others
is not maxamed abshir a member of "Carta function"? indeed very welcome in moqdisho more than galeydh does. Any mother from central somalia, her son is "diric" and her teenage is "xunka" |
| MAD MAC | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 11:28 am
Observer
Your observations are half truths. The fight with the SNM was the first, and consequently the longest. There were major air strikes directed at the Isaaq in general and the SNM in particular. But as the fight spread, the majority of the Army moved south. The majority of the air force was already in the south and flying out of Baledogle and sometimes Mogadischu. It was heavily employed in the north, but it was based in the south and ultimately destroed by the USC (I saw the wrecks personally). The USC, as you said, then pinned the tail on the Donkey. The SNM gets plenty of credit for the destruction of the Barre regime, but so does the USC. They were just late comers.
Lastly, the SSDF split but did not disintegrate in 1985. What militia do you think Abdullahi Yusuf led anyway? Furthermore want organization do you think the man in question on this post represented? Hmmmmm?
MAD MUULAH I love you too. Check out the latest book: Falcon Brigade by Larry Casper. You can find me in it if you're really curious.
Xoogsade
You crack me up. One of those who always reflect on the good old days. Just not smart enough to know they never existed. How's the joke go? What do our grandfathers call the misery of the great depression and the slaughter of WW II? The Good ol' days!!!
I am not going to postulate one way ot the other whether Somalis drank alcohol before the evil white mans arrival and after Islams arrival, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. What I do find interesting is that you like to lay blame - on outsiders as much as possible, on the demon of Siad Barre when not - for all of Somalias social ills. You seem to believe that some ethnic groups are inherently evil and yours is just a victim of these evil societies. Good grief, be real.
As for my Somali friends, I never said that all of them drink, I said plenty of them do. And surprise surprise, one of them is Haber Gedir and fought against us during the US intervention there. Like I said, some Somalis drink, some do not. What I think is really comical is in all of my meetings with Somalis I have only met one that eats pork. Now there's something that's ingrained.
Of course alcohol, when abused, is certainly extremely unhealthy. Not as unhealthy as crack cocaine, but unhealthy. On the other hand, in moderate doses it's very healthy. I'm not arguing it's vice or virtue one way or the other, that ain't the point. The point is that Islam does not equal Somali culture and Somali culture (as it now is not in some dreamland that exists only in your head) does not equal Islam. Maybe you would like it to, but it doesn't. Sorry muchacho.
I loved your line "To be Somali is to be Muslim." Bullshit. There are plenty of ethnic Somalis who are not Muslims. To be Somali is to be born of the of the Somali linguistic group. To be legally Somali is to be a Somali citizen, although for sure this is a spurious thing at the moment. Are you postulating that Somalis who are not Muslim are not Somali?? What are they then??
EVERYONE ELSE
Lighten up a little on Durgal. I don't think he's right, in fact I think he's considerably off base. But let's face it, Somali history during the war years and the period leading right up to it is somewhat merky and not all that well documented (although I read a very good book in German, it'snot available in English, called the Civil War in Somalia 1986-1996 and it's pretty good. Covers month by month everything that happened. Anyway, cut Durgal some slack. He's not spouting off heresy. |
| Wacaysle | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 08:17 pm
this is clear unjust Xoogsade and Sharmaarke everyone is entitled to speak there opinion if you don't agree the person attack the record you disagree you don't attack his whole Clan you such a loser's and this cyber internet is not your mother's soccer field ,you bastards hiding behind the topic and attacking his clan , do something about your f u cking Homo people,,,you disgrace the whole race of Somalia.. |
| Wacaysle | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 08:44 pm
Sharmaarke
dad ayaad qabiil halkan kula dagaalamawsaa dhinaca kalena qabiil aad dadka ku hanuunee doqon maskax xun ...waa jiran tahay ..Qabiiliiste fowqa Qabiilist''.Xaad ka dheefee Xaangana waa qaniis kaleee...waqti fiicanaan dhulkaanya idinka cirdaysanay,,,, |
| Sharmaake | Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 09:30 am
Waceysle..lol... Xaad ii habaaree Qandho dufleh haku dhacdee..
..later.. |
| Gaalkacyo | Monday, April 16, 2001 - 08:38 am
General Aideed was hero to me.
I love him because he was my liberator.
He stood up for me and my people when
Siyaad Barre sent his troops to commit
massacres against us. He sent the Marjeteen
to kill us in Galkayo. I remember how they
would poison our wells, take our sisters,
pour sugar and rice into the sand. In one day alone I lost 10 uncles. My father and his brothers. As far as I am concerned, Siyaad Barre drew first blood. I was only 10 at that time
and u don't know how bad it feels when a person feels helpless. Aideed was the man organized my people to fight Siyaad and to NEVER AGAIN BECOME VICTIMS OF OPRESSION. I am forever in his debt. To me Aideed was a hero ! A liberator ! A King !
He secured that no one would ever cause my people harm again. God Bless Him ! |
| Gaalkacyo | Monday, April 16, 2001 - 08:38 am
General Aideed was hero to me.
I love him because he was my liberator.
He stood up for me and my people when
Siyaad Barre sent his troops to commit
massacres against us. He sent the Marjeteen
to kill us in Galkayo. I remember how they
would poison our wells, take our sisters,
pour sugar and rice into the sand. In one day alone I lost 10 uncles. My father and his brothers. As far as I am concerned, Siyaad Barre drew first blood. I was only 10 at that time
and u don't know how bad it feels when a person feels helpless. Aideed was the man organized my people to fight Siyaad and to NEVER AGAIN BECOME VICTIMS OF OPRESSION. I am forever in his debt. To me Aideed was a hero ! A liberator ! A King !
He secured that no one would ever cause my people harm again. God Bless Him ! |
