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     | Unrecorded Date WOW,, Somaliyeey, we have come a long, long way, Moving to surburbia, away from the "good for nothing Somalis" trying so hard to fit in, assimilation seems to be the order of the day. The rules of the house stress that you should not miss the family dinner. This seems to be the highlight of the day. People are repeatedly adviced to talk in turns,, to me, this looks like a scene straight out of Oprahs book club,, The time for Maghrib prayer passes by,, without notice.,, The topic is about Elian Gonzales and people are getting all hysterical... Countless number of books are stacked in the book case... from Shakespeare to Maya Angelo... There is no sight of the Glorious Quran !!! We try very hard to shed any trace of ethnocommunal conciousness,, We look at other somalis with contempt, the first words that come out of your mouth are "there are no Somalis where we live". I could not help but feel like a fish out of water... We are trying very hard to lose that accent,,, Which side do you guys face for prayers ,,,,you know what,, just forget it,,thats a million dollar question !! Pass the Salad please,,,, Whats wrong with this picture ? ? Whats up with this ? ?
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| | Unrecorded Date Lol@Papa, hmmmm, wit, sarcasm and a sense of humour!!! Sometime ago there was a topic here where people debated whether culture was static or fluid? Of course there was no agreement. Assismilation is a sensitive topic; that some people are even opposed to the use of the term itself; prefering to use the term integrating. Integrating gives people a sense of control, whereby the assumption is that parents will select what aspect of the culture of the majority one will adopt or at least accomodate. There is nothing wrong with moving to suburbia, actually, the schools are better, and in Virginia, community facilities and recreation areas are better in suburbia. For instance the 3rd best High School in the United States is located in the City of Falls Church, one of the top ten high schools in the US; T.C. Williams is located in the city of Alexandria. While some areas of city of Falls Church and Alexandria are not technically suburbia considering their proximity to Washington D.C.; if I were a parent I would move to these locations; not because I want to move away from other Somalis, but because of what is optimal for my 'kids'. Another reason people move to suburbia is because it is cheaper both to rent or buy further up!! Again I think it is economics and not to get away from Somalis that prompts the move!! Speaking about current issues is okay, it is the fodder needed to network with the powers that be. Considering the fact that we are bombarded with news and there is an information overload coming from all sources, it is humanly impossible not to address it. About the salaat-al-maghrib, well being a taaruk al salaat is no excuse and it is not justifiable!! If I pass the banana instead of the salad, will the picture be okay??
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| | Unrecorded Date Brother PaPa, I understand what you are talking about. Aside from the Muslims breaking the relationship they have with their Lord(the Salaat) and the ties they have with their Muslim brothers and sisters, which they share with culture and religion(masjids), these people have in them, almost always, a false self-importance(a pride), which leads them to the assimilation. As a result, these people do what may be called "culture flight” as soon as they made it, like the "white flight”. Someone once said "the worst sin towards our fellow countrymen is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that is the essence of inhumanity". Sister Xaali, I think the best education system a parent can send his or her child is not to the top ten elementary/high schools in the country, private or public, but schools that offer both Islamic and elementary/high school education. Almost all the Islamic schools are found in the urban cities. The purpose of the Islamic schools is to provide all the studies which are taught in the public/private schools and also to provide Islamic studies in an Islamic school environment. The Muslim students learn Islamic etiquettes as well as other studies in that atmosphere, where kids, boys and girls, attend duhur Salaats with the teachers in their lunch time. In Islamic schools, the kids are instilled the importance of Salaat in early age with jameeca(with the Muslim brothers and sisters in the Masjids ). They will also learn and experience the importance of being with the Muslims and they will hear this: WALAA TAFARAQUU. .
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa, very intresting, and well presented topic. "people are repeatedly adviced to talk in turns" that made me really laugh!!. But i don't think theirs a subject of redicule. Living in the suburbs, not missing the family dinner, shelves filled with books... i see positive things here. Now, about "Maghrib prayer passing without notice" this is in-excusable as Xaali said. But you have to understand these people. They don't have large numbers of "Somali peers" in terms of education and personal civilization, who like them, has "made it" in the new country. In that case, they could form a "new somali class" who have common topics of interest and conversation, which, while it is reflecting in the new country's culture, is also deeply rooted in Somali identity and culture as well. But they have plenty of "somali good for nothings" who live in the country on an emergency basis and whose prefered conversation is which tribe has the upperhand these days, how to go about cheating the state or how the world is conspiring against his noble excellency Mr. Bin Laden!!. So, they repeatedly realize that they have nothing in common with these people. Thus "contempt to somalis and they opt whole-heartedly to all out assimilation. You said that they are like fish out of water, but you are surely aware of that "good for nothings" aren't in there water here neither!!. Besides haven't we all discarded every thing positive in our cultural heritage and identity, while we are sticking with the negative things. Every thing which manifests our culture and identity is either declared "badawnimo" or "bidco iyo gaalnimo". Even our somali names aren't good enough these days!!. So i don't see what these guys had in the first place to have left it.
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| | Unrecorded Date Warsame, > So, they repeatedly realize that they have > nothing in common with these people. Thus > "contempt to somalis and they opt whole- > heartedly to all out assimilation. Do you have something in "common" with the people in the suburbs, Warsame? If you ask me, the fact is that, these people will not welcome you with open-hand in their community no matter how you assimilate and be like them, right, Warsame? Most probably, when the whites see some African people moving to their area, they will do another "white flight". By the way, Warsame, What is the difference between Mr. Bin Laden and Mr. Bill Clinton? Looks like Mr. Bin Laden is being accused of bombing buildings and killing innocent people(which he denied), while Mr. Bill Clinton bombed buildings in Sudan and Iraq and killed innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan, right, Warsame?
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| | Unrecorded Date PaPa- what is wrong with assimilating- as long as you don't forget your roots. A winner assimilates. A winner learns the language- the culture- the unspoken code! Then the winner takes advantage of it- Yes! I am Somali- but I am not living in Somalia today- now am I? Bad or good- I am an expatriat- So I have two choices- 1) I can remain rigidly clinging to a foriegn culture- refusing to learn the new- or 2) I can learn the new culture- and start my life in the new country. Now- does this mean I should forget my religion and language? NO! NO! NO! Whether I am in the North America or Africa- I am a Muslim! I will practice it and live it. Now does that mean I should send my kids to "Muslim schools"? NO! NO! They can go to "Quran schools" in the evenings and weekends (isn't that how we were raised?) and during the school week- they will go to the best schools I can possibly afford! This obsession with imitating the Arabs- dressing like them- going to school with them- I totally disagree with. Back home- We wore normal clothing- we attended normal schools- we grew up to be well adjusted people. Today, I see people dressing their five yr old girls in Hijaabs- sending them to school with Arabs- Does that poor child deserve a "second rate" schooling- that will not help her compete for the best universities? Does that child deserve to be called an "Abdah" by her "arab" collegues? What the hell are they covering a 5 yr old for? I believe in making the best out of the choices life gives us- as they say- when you are given lemons- make lemonade. So I will sit in suburbia- teaching my kids the best table manners- providing for them the best schooling possible (so they can achieve the best they possibly can) and teaching them to always Love and Obey their Creator (SWT). Remember- An Oak tree grows, strong. Always reaching for the stars- and yet an Oak tree has the longest and strongest roots. An Oak tree is strong because it has strong roots. Similarly I will reach to better my self and offspring- but I will not forget where I came from. Sorry this is so long- but this is a topic that gets my "goat"!
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, I think what PaPa was talking about is not that there is something wrong with becoming *familiar with* or *learning* the new language and the new culture that we live in, but the assimilation of *accepting* what is not ours, to the point of "any trace of ethnocommunal consciousness", is that thing that he was talking about. I think what he said about was that some Somali Muslims forgot about what is theirs. He said: "There is no sight of the Glorious Quran"---"Which side do you guys face for prayers". Probably, PaPA has visited some Somali homes or he has seen some relatives of his, who have changed since they arrived to their new environment. > Now does that mean I should send my kids to > "Muslim schools"? NO! NO! Somali people who send their kids to "Muslim schools" are not doing wrong, do they, Caraweelo? I think they are doing something good for their kids. > They can go to "Quran schools" in the evenings > and weekends (isn't that how we were raised?) > and during the school week- they will go to the > best schools I can possibly afford! Caraweelo, I think you know that there is a big difference between the environment we were "raised" in Somalia when you and I were growing up and the environment that the Somali kids of today, who live in the abroad are being "raised" in. In my opinion, kids being sent to "Quranic schools" in the evening and on the weekends is not good enough these days. Kids need Islamic studies in an Islamic school environment as much as they need other studies. The "Muslim schools" these kids attend offer this kind of environment. And FYI, these "Muslim schools" are not "second rate schooling". The students, who attend "Muslim schools" can compete and even, most of the times, higher scores and grades than students, who attend the so called "first rate schooling"(public or private schooling). > What the hell are they covering a 5 yr old for? Caraweelo, unlike you, I do not see anything wrong "covering a 5 yr old girl" and giving her the importance of the hijab. And FYI, covering or wearing hijab is not an "Arab dress" nor the schools Muslim kids attend is an "Arab schools". There are black/white American/African/Arab/Chinese/and all kinds of ethnic kids attending those schools while wearing the proper "Islamic dress". Is there something wrong with that, Caraweelo?
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| | Unrecorded Date We all want the finer things in life, no doubt,, But in that quest for material prosperity one ought to be careful and not lose sight of the essence of life,, In this prozac oriented society, there is a thin line between making it and losing it all. We have seen numerous cases of individuals who have committed suicide, some have even killed their entire family because they have lost their wealth. The stories of people who have gone "postal" are well documented. But the lingering question is,,, why do these individuals act in this manner ? Once you lose that job or your stock takes the plunge,, does that mean you cease to exist as a person ? Is there life outside that material realm ? Lets not lose sight of the essence of life, lets not forget the things that define us as individuals and the thread that hold us together as a society. There are certain thematic elements we share as Muslims and Somalis, once we discard this we have nothing to fall back on when the bottom falls out. Do not view your people with contempt regardless of their socio-economic shortcomings. Wealth can come and go, but we should not compromise our values. Carawelo, One cant assimilate and maintain their indentity at the same time,there is no point maintaining the roots once you have cut off the tree !!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, more power to you sis., you said it all. There is no doubt that we, Somalis, have huge adaptation problems in the west. Every one of us knows many failures and tragic fates. Our children are said to be dumps and low-achievers in the schools. It's clear we are having identity crises. We are a nation which has been mass-hypnotized and then told to discard every thing which is ours, and that from now on we are something else. We are told that we are foreigners to our own land, and that we came from arabia, to hate our own language, traditions, dress... every thing that's us. The islam we have been practicing since we became muslims has been declared invalid!. Hence the examples Caraweelo was talking about and many more, arab, Indo-Pakistani dresses, Sending children to arab schools in North America! Having a headache about the affairs of other peoples country and no intererst what so ever in yours. People who moved from the West to arab countries...!!. But it's obvious that we are in for a calamity. you can discard your identity but you'll never own somebody else's. Here we are failed, angry, desperados who feel no where at home. Cursing the arabs and other muslim nations because they are not pure enough!! and the satanic West!! Most of those who have moved to arab countries have come back crushed. Those countreis were not the lands of the faith after all, but Egyptians, Ematarats, Kuwaitis, Syrians, Saudis... and worst of all they were constantely adessed to "hey, you somali"!!. So, here is our problem; We discarded our identity and culture. The arabs who told us to do so, doesn't want us and we like the western countries shelter, money and civil rights but we hate them. How about adressing these problems and quit envying those who "made it" here. I believe that most of them are more somali than they failed guy with the qamis!.
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| | Unrecorded Date Warsame, > So, here is our problem; We discarded our > identity and culture. The arabs who told us to > do so, doesn't want us and we like the western > countries shelter, money and civil rights but > we hate them. Warsame, Somalis live all over the world and they made their homes in the western countries and in the Arab countries. However, when reading what you are saying, I think you are advocating one culture(western culture), while discouraging another culture(Arab culture). You think Arab culture is not good for the Somalis, but you want for the Somalis western culture and you are saying "we discarded our identity and culture"! I do not think the "Arabs" told us to "discard" our "identity" and "culture". I do not hate the Arab countries(and their people and money) nor do I hate the western countries(and their people and money). > How about adressing these problems and quit > envying those who "made it" here. I believe > that most of them are more somali than they > failed guy with the qamis!. I do not "envy" those Somalis who 'made it" and I certainty do have "contempt" for those who did not "make it". When I see any Somali walking in the street or driving, I smile at them and say salaam; when I go to the mosque, I pray shoulder to shoulder and find in them closeness. I don't run away from them nor do I try to distance myself from them, whether they are wearing on "qamis", baseball cap, Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Armani, Versace, or just plain macawis and shirt. By the way, Warsame, if "qamis" is an Arab cloth and you think Somalis shouldn't wear it, what about Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Armani, Versace clothes? I mean, is wearing pants a Somali culture?
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| | Unrecorded Date and I certainty do NOT have "contempt" for those who did not "make it".
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaams all, I think we (as Somalis) should pay attention and learn from the experience of the more established muslim communities in the disapora. There are leassons to be learned from the way these communities have evolved and became established as a group that has "integrated". See how the Pakistani; Indian; Lebanese; and Palestinan communities are faring. It is up to each community to organize and ensure how or which aspect of the culture has to be preserved. Warsame has mentioned in his earlier postings, the need for people of similar interstes etc to forms or plan gatherings based on commonality of intersts. I do not advocate the schools run by Middle Eastern for the simple reason that 1. the education level is not at par with what is taught at mainstream schools; 2. the best islamic school are geared towards children of diplomats; so it is almost impossible to get in if a parent is not a diplomat, people have been on the waiting list forever. 3)These schools are usually private and very expensive for the average Somali, that a lot of time it is not even an option. 4) Middle Easterns are worse racist than Somalis. So what is the alternative??? I think it is integration with compassion, let us take the best of what our new home has to offer; while maintaining our religion and the Somali culture. One can not succeed by isolating oneself from the mainstream culture. And if parents don't become active participants in the process of integration; the children will be subliminally seduced by the forces of the media, MTV; Disney; hip hop culture and plethora of agents who are after lifetime consumers (yaa, ensuring brand loyalty is big bussiness) for the needs they have manafactured.
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| | Unrecorded Date Good Morning to you all- Xirsi, Brother I understand what you have so eloquently explained to me. But I disagree that Islamic schools are the answer. Learning our religion can be taught at home and afternoon/weekend classes. You are right that this culture we live in today is a far cry from the one we came from. However, one can maintain a culture of "small somalia" at home. Children learn by imitation. If their parents preach "islam" but behave badly- ie. not giving charity, not praying, not living a life with Iman, that is what they learn. As far as little girls are concerns- I used to be one and i think can speak for them with experience :-) When a parent institutes a life of "limitation"- ie. in dress and what they can or can not do, whilst all around them are living "freely"- the little girl grows up "envying the free"- and guess what- the momment she is old enough to decide for herself- she takes the extereme role of imitating the west- in dress and worse of all in behaviour. In my opinion, the little girl should be taught about the values behing her belief system. She should be taught true iman which is in our hearts. Then let her decide how she will dress/behave, when she is old enough. When one lays a solid foundation- one can build the strongest tower! Blind following of anything- and that is what putting a "hijab" on a child is- does not achieve anything in the long run. Thank you Brother Warsame. PaPa- Forgot to say earlier- Great topic! And you are right- cutting down the tree defeats the whole point. I do not advocate forgetting who we are. By assimilation- one does not forget their langauage or culture. The tree, as long as we are still living, grows. And as we learn and grow, and strive for excellence in behaviour, education and manners, the tree grows stronger and stronger. Xaali- Love the clarity of your thinking! Let us emulate those who came before us- those that succeeded as a community- take the best and forget the rest! Hypocrisy and blind following of any culture is simply put- STUPID!I see young people who forgot how to speak Somali - HOW?????? I see others dressing and emulating the worse kind in America. WHY? Take from the best and forget the rest! And remember- Moderation is the key. Anything in extereme (and that includes wearing "Qamiis" in the winter!) does not accomplish anything. We, as muslims and as Somalis, are an example to others. Our behaviour and appearance should always be without reproach. But what really pisses me off- excuse the french- is how people think that a muslim person is only defined by their clothing. I once seeked mental sanctuary at a mosque. I went there with the highest expectations. I thought I was finally finding people who decided to withdraw from "laqwah" and "evil". Do you know what I found? The same people as I was escaping! Yes, they were covered from head to toe- even socks and gloves- Yes- the prayed five times- plus sunnah prayers after each obligatory one- yes- they spend time between prayers at the mosque- BUT....they gossiped, they were arrogant. They had a "holier than thou" attitude. They lied and cheated. True- not all of them- but most that I met. There was so much "laqwah" and "idle talk" that I decided I had better spend my time away from them. A case in point- one night during the last 10 days of ramadan- I became jealous of religious women- who were spending the entire night in prayer. I said to myself- You too do your thing. I fed my kids, bid my husband good night (much to his delight! :-) )- and headed to the mosque. I took my Quran and a prayer book. At the mosque, what I saw horrified me! Women with their termuus of drinks, sambusi, canjeelo etc, carrying pillows and blankets, were streched out- talking. Catching up on the latest occurances. Others were dicatating to all- where they could sit- and HOW they could sit. Children ran amuck! Man! What a disaster. Some of us tried to pray and spend the time in reflective state- but it was hard- amid the chaos. So..... To me Islam is more than the clothing on my back. I believe I should clean my insides first. My conscience, my iman and my intentions. Then I believe my outward appearance will reflect my internal belief. Then I will begin to look like the true muslim women- the ones who have the simplist of clothing and the kindest of heart! The ones who see this world for what it truly is- a temporary abode. Again- my apologies for the ramble!
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali, > I do not advocate the schools run by Middle > Eastern for the simple reason that 1. the > education level is not at par with what is > taught at mainstream schools; 2. the best > islamic school are geared towards children of > diplomats; so it is almost impossible to get in > if a parent is not a diplomat, people have been > on the waiting list forever---- 4) Middle > Easterns are worse racist than Somalis. I think most "Muslim schools" in the U.S.A are NOT run by the "Middle Eastern" people. Racism is everywhere. In Atlanta, my new home, there are two "Muslim schools"; one school is run by African American Muslims and the other is run and taught by many different ethnic groups, including white/black/pakistani/indian and even two somali teachers. And from what I read and heard in these schools, when comparing "education level" in the State of Georgia, students who attend "Muslim schools", score higher grade tests than other school. I heard many students from these schools received or are receiving academic scholarship to the top universities and colleges in the country. > 3)These schools are usually private and very > expensive for the average Somali, that a lot of > time it is not even an option. These schools are *private*; they are not public schools. These schools are not "very expensive", but you are right, the average Somali, especially the new comers to the states, can't effort the $200 fee Muslim schools are charging parents per student, but they give many parents a break if they show that they can not work and pay the fee. Muslim school offer many benefits to the Muslims kids. Almost all the teachers are Muslims who maintain an Islamic atmosphere in the classroom. Students are expected to wear Islamic attire and maintain a proper Islamic manner which gets reflected in the rest of their lives. There is less peer pressure to indulge in any unIslamic behavior. The topics covered in the classes has Islamic touches to them; thus, enabling the students to relate the world from an Islamic point of view. There is no problems of drugs, guns, sexual promiscuity, improper sexual education etc. Muslim schools usually have small class and a good student/teacher relationship. > So what is the alternative??? In my opinion, Islam demands us to teach ourselves and our children. It is advisable that Somali parents should try their best to educate their children in an Islamic environment in a Muslim school and try to avoid their children fall prey to the negative influence in the public schools and some Christian private schools and in many private schools run by non-Muslim which are more expenseive. The rewards of sending children to Muslim schools outweigh any expense and sacrifices which parents may incur.
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| | Unrecorded Date Good morning, sister Caraweelo, > Brother I understand what you have so > eloquently explained to me. I understand your points too and I thank you for your understanding. > But I disagree that Islamic schools are the > answer. I think the alternative(in public and in non-Muslim private schools) are not the answer for our Muslim kids. > Learning our religion can be taught at home > and afternoon/weekend classes. Yes, I agree, but they can also learn religion from Muslim schools too, along with other studies. The basics of Islam are taught and practiced in the Muslim schools too. And there is nothing wrong with that, right? > Children learn by imitation. If their parents > preach "islam" but behave badly- ie. not giving > charity, not praying, not living a life with > Iman, that is what they learn. You are right that children learn by imitation. If the parents are not practicing, kids will not most likely practice the Diin also. But I would think that a parent who is not practicing and behaving badly would not send his kids to Muslim school; if the parents do, then they are hypocrites. They might as well send their kids to the public schools and even if they send their kids to the weekend/evening Quranic teachings, there is no use and it is not enough. > As far as little girls are concerns- I used to > be one and i think can speak for them with > experience :-) I have to admit that you have an advantage over me in this area. :-) You know what is like to be a girl. I do not. I give you that. I do not know anything about what a little girl goes through in her thinking and what she experiences and her behavior if she were to made her wear hijab. :-) > Then let her decide how she will dress/behave, > when she is old enough. When one lays a solid > foundation- one can build the strongest tower! > Blind following of anything- and that is what > putting a "hijab" on a child is- does not > achieve anything in the long run. However, I disagree with you, sister. I think when a girl and a boy are being taught in their tender age all the Islamic practices, they will benefit, apprecaite and get used to the practices. For example, if a 5 year old girl is made to perform prayers, in an effort to teach her the importance of the prayers, why can't she also made to wear the hijab, in an effort to teach her the importance of the hijab? In my opinion, any religious practices, which are instilled on the kids, will, in the most cases, benefit and achieve something good, in the long run.
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| | Unrecorded Date We now live in a world of so many competing ideologies that it can be tiring sometimes. I wish we lived in a world where there was no bias, prejudice and such, but that is not the case. Nothing is taught to anyone in this world without there being some ideology behind it. In public school and private/religious schools in America, when students are given Christmas holidays, it is because of the religion of this land. By default, this society teaches its religion and values. In American history classes in elementry/high schoo, public or private, you hardly ever hear of the extermination of the American Indians. You do not hear good things about Islam, in fact, you hear bad things abut Islam. That is because the they wrote the history book. Again, someone else's ideology is being promoted as dominant. If the Nazis won WW II, then you would see no mention of the gas chambers. The media presents the Western cultural tradition as the finest in human history. Who say so? The Westerner says it. What of all the inhumanity and slaughter inflicted? Their ideology teaches them that "might makes right." I subscribe to a different ideology. It is different from Christianity and Westernism. The Christian/Jewish oriented educational system uses the public school system to promote its values of free sex, mundane pleasures, meaningless lifestyles, homosexuality, abortion, alcohol, etc... To counter act these ideological and religious trends that I cannot agree with, I must send my future children to a school that will teach values according to what I feel if I'm going to stay in this country. President Bill Clinton has his values and they are taught in schools under his government. I don't agree with adultry, promiscuity, etc... so I have the right to promote my own values which are based on Islam. That is why group wants to have schools oriented towards their beliefs, culture, values etc... Don't think for a moment that education in a school is without some bias or another. You should rather be asking public schools why they promote Christian and Jewish holidays and Western/American values rather than teaching the straight basics. Think about it.
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| | Unrecorded Date Good Topic, thanks guys all your points are valid & sound. Xaali: Sistah…uuuummmm you are awesome. Xirsi: Hope this time I won’t end up being called Western Puppet after disagreeing with you as in the other thread. 1st if you intention is to highlight our basic Islamic values & want us to strength it, despite the relentless onslaught of other non-Islamic values one is exposed to in these non-Islamic adopted homes…I agree with you. There are other individuals who assume the role of “my way or the highway” attitude, and one dares to oppose their views resort to name calling…hopefully this is not the case. >You are right that children learn by imitation. If the parents are not practicing, kids will not most likely practice the >Diin also. But I would think that a parent who is not practicing and behaving badly would not send his kids to >Muslim school; if the parents do, then they are hypocrites. They might as well send their kids to the public schools >and even if they send their kids to the weekend/evening Quranic teachings, there is no use and it is not enough. Do you really think Parents who are not practicing and behaving badly exclusively live in the non-Muslim countries? I recently went to UAE, and one of the interesting incidents I encountered was, the majority of the Five star Hotels were occupied by High priced Russian (some from the Muslim countries like Azerbaijan) women of the night, guess who their clientele was?????? Rich sheiks who are the leaders of the country (both on the Gov’t & Business Level) and their male offspring’s who had nothing to do with money and lot of time on their hands. These people who supposedly are role models not only to their children but to the average Abdalla on the street, these are people who wear elegant Djalabiya &Kuffiah, religiously go to the Hajj and for all appearance look the very essence of a good Muslim. So my brother, being a bad Muslim (i.e. Adultery, promiscuity, etc) is not exclusive to those who live in the non-Muslim countries…. It happens & always happened in the Muslim world through out the centuries…we are not breaking new ground here. Wearing the right attire doesn’t necessarily translate to being a good Muslim I believe the power to do the right thing resides with the individual regardless of the environment they live in. Here in North America, there are large Asian population, mostly Chinese & Indians, they constantly beat the American at their game both academically & work, yet they never lose their identity in terms of culture, religion and so forth..why is that so??????? Or are the Muslim people weak enough to succumb easily to western values and abandon theirs…. I think not. Peace.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah >Xirsi: >Hope this time I won’t end up being called >Western Puppet after disagreeing with you as in >the other thread. I do not even know that you and I debated with each other. And if I called you a "Western Puppet", you, most probably, called me another *derogatory* name. But if you are so kind enough and tell me where you and I debated and I called you a "Western Puppet", I'll appreciate it. >There are other individuals who assume the role >of “my way or the highway” attitude, and one >dares to oppose their views resort to name >calling…hopefully this is not the case. And who are those "other individuals", who say "my way or the highway"? If someone says "my way or the highway", he or she has every right to do so. Maybe he or she does not want to *compromise* his or her beliefs and values, but are you saying you've never "resorted to any name calling" when debating, Mullah? >Do you really think Parents who are not >practicing and behaving badly exclusively live >in the non-Muslim countries? I didn't say that "Parents who are not practicing and behaving badly exclusively live in the non-Muslim countries", did I? >I recently went to UAE, and one of the >interesting incidents I encountered was, the >majority of the Five star Hotels were occupied >by High priced Russian (some from the Muslim >countries like Azerbaijan) women of the night, >guess who their clientele was?????? Rich sheiks >who are the leaders of the country (both on the >Gov’t & Business Level) and their male >offspring’s who had nothing to do with money and >lot of time on their hands. Are you sure that the only people you've seen in those hotels were "Rich sheiks"? I do not think *ONLY* the "Rich sheiks" are the customers to the whore houses. >These people who supposedly are role models not >only to their children but to the average >Abdalla on the street, these are people who wear >elegant Djalabiya &Kuffiah, religiously go to >the Hajj and for all appearance look the very >essence of a good Muslim. Let me turn the table on you, Mullah. Have you ever heard one of the famous whore houses in Somalia(BARAAKA CABDOOW)? And do you think only Somali single men(none-role models) went in there? >So my brother, being a bad Muslim (i.e. >Adultery, promiscuity, etc) is not exclusive to >those who live in the non-Muslim countries…. It >happens & always happened in the Muslim world >through out the centuries…we are not breaking >new ground here. I agree. It happens everywhere, even in Somalia, right? That is why the practice is called "the oldest profession in the world" It is everywhere and not only singles are the customers, but Muslim parents and husbands do the act in every country. >Wearing the right attire doesn’t necessarily >translate to being a good Muslim Yes, that is correct. But Mullah, Do you think by "Wearing on Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Armani, Versace clothes" will make you a better person than the avarage Somali, who wears macawis and qamis? >I believe the power to do the right thing >resides with the individual regardless of the >environment they live in. Yes, but we are talking about Muslim kids who need guidance. Kids do not have the "power to do the right thing", so parents(made it or not and living in or out of the country) should make the decision for them, right? >Here in North America, there are large Asian >population, mostly Chinese & Indians, they >constantly beat the American at their game both >academically & work, yet they never lose their >identity in terms of culture, religion and so >forth..why is that so??????? That is because the most "Asian population, mostly Chinese and Indians" are not Muslims. Maybe their culture and values and ours are different. >Or are the Muslim people weak enough to succumb >easily to western values and abandon theirs…. I >think not. It is not about weakness; it is about not compromising the DIIN. Muslims are told to not COMPROMISE their religious values, no matter how and Soomaalida waxay tiraahdaa. HADDII LA DHIMANAAYANA, DHAREERKA WAA LA ISKA DUWAA. Only the *weak* Muslim "succumb easily" to compromise.
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| | Unrecorded Date Wooow Man are you conveniently secreting the issues or are you not getting it? Let me try one more time. >Are you sure that the only people you've seen in those hotels were "Rich sheiks"? I do not >think *ONLY* the "Rich sheiks" are the customers to the whore houses. My point is un-Islamic activities i.e. Adultery & Promiscuity that you alluded to Bill Clinton and the Western world happens even in the heart of Muslim world & is not exclusive to the West, Never heard of Barako Cabdow but that doesn’t matter or that some of the Clientele is non-Somali, the fact is it’s taking place in a Muslim country. >Yes, that is correct. But Mullah, Do you think by "Wearing on Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, >Tommy Hilfiger, >Armani, Versace clothes" will make you a better person than the avarage >Somali, who wears macawis and qamis? Did I say wearing Tommy Hilfiger or Versace would make me a better person than my fellow Somali wearing Macawis or Qaamis …No No , why do you think one would look down on someone simply cuz they are wearing Macawis or Qaamis??????????? I fail to see the relevance of this question. >Yes, but we are talking about Muslim kids who need guidance. Kids do not have the >"power to do the right thing", >so parents(made it or not and living in or out of the country) >should make the decision for them, right? The power to do the right obviously resides with the parents when it comes to minors, if the parents are good parents, the kids will be instilled with the right morals & values regardless of dress attire or whether they made it or not, live in the inner city or suburbia. >That is because the most "Asian population, mostly Chinese and Indians" are not Muslims. >Maybe their culture and values and ours are different. Again whether they are muslims or not is beside the point, the issue is they played the Western man’s game & beat him/her to it while never compromising their religion, culture or values, you mean Muslims can’t do that???? I think they can do …….. But before we go any further, I think Xaali has a valid point here…why don’t we study the Muslims who where here before us i.e. Pakistanis, Lebanese e.t.c and see how they adopted here then may be modify it to our needs without compromising (ur favorite word) the faith.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah, >My point is un-Islamic activities i.e. Adultery >& Promiscuity that you alluded to Bill Clinton I said Bill Clinton has his values and I have mine. "President Bill Clinton has his values and they are taught in schools under his government." >and the Western world happens even in the heart >of Muslim world & is not exclusive to the West Yes, including the country of Somalia, right? >Never heard of Barako Cabdow but that doesn’t >matter or that some of the Clientele is non->Somali, Baraako Cabdoow's "Clientele" were Somalis(fathers and husbands), that was the point. >the fact is it’s taking place in a Muslim >country. Looks like, Mullah, you are the one, who "conveniently secreting the issues" and didn't "get" my agreement with you on this. If there is such "countries" called "Muslim countries", Somalia would be one them, right, Mulllah? >Did I say wearing Tommy Hilfiger or Versace >would make me a better person than my fellow >Somali wearing Macawis or Qaamis …No No , why do >you think one would look down on someone simply >cuz they are wearing Macawis or >Qaamis??????????? I fail to see the relevance of >this question. I thought the "qamiis" wearing was something to be contempt with and whoever wears it! >The power to do the right obviously resides with >the parents when it comes to minors, if the >parents are good parents, the kids will be >instilled with the right morals & values >regardless of dress attire or whether they made >it or not, live in the inner city or suburbia. Yes, agree, but parents who send their Somali kids to the "Muslim schools" are leading their kids to the right directions(right morals & values found in Muslim schools), right? >Again whether they are muslims or not is beside >the point, That is the whole point, my brother. Them and us have different values and beliefs. >the issue is they played the Western man’s game >& beat him/her to it while never compromising >their religion, culture or values, you mean Muslims can’t do that???? Yes, they "played" the same "game" that "westerns" play. The rule of the "game" in their schools is no religious teachings, but everything else goes, including the values of free sex, mundane pleasures, meaningless lifestyles, homosexuality, abortion, alcohol, etc... Do you think Muslim parents should play this kind of game? Muslim kids should NOT be played a game with their lives and if it is played, you are doing a compromise. My point is that Muslims should not do that, especially when they have other alternatives open for them right in their noses. >But before we go any further, I think Xaali has >a valid point here…why don’t we study the >Muslims who where here before us i.e. >Pakistanis, Lebanese e.t.c and see how they >adopted here then may be modify it to our needs >without compromising (ur favorite word) the >faith. Maybe Xaali and you do not know that every group, including the Pakistanis, Lebanese, even some Jewish/Christians already have schools oriented towards their beliefs, culture, values etc and that they made their kids out of the public schools.
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaam Folks Thanks Bro Xirsi for defending Islam May Allaah proctect you evil Deeds. First of all do you know the ppl your debating with its Called Two cent group they always agree with Good or Bad so carefully before you wast a time. To: Papa Without Salat you died Man that all i can say. To: Araweelo If you disagree Islamic school, what you will agree catholic, or Public school teacher gives students Condom to proctect Aids. If you don't like wearing Hijab why don't leave ppl who are ready to wear. About middle east this is where Islam Start and we never far from them, you think living west with CNN and Washington Post will keep you life, I hope you will think back. To: Xaali Sis lot of Somali Families can't afford to pay Islamic school Let alone diplomats. Waxaad i soo xusuusiya Boqoradii tiri dadkii may cunaan cake iyadoo la waayey Rooti.
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaams all, Thanks Mullah! Hawa, your misquoting me!!!. What I said was actually the opposite!!! I said the good Islamic school in my area cater to the children of diplomats and other islamic schools are not affordable and therefore not an option for Somalis. Xirsi, my suggestion is let us learn from the experience of established muslim communities. I am not denying that various immigrant communities have schools that they fund and run, eventhough the quality of some do not meet the standard. I know of at least 2 cases whereby schools in Virgina run by immigrants were closed because they were not up to standard. Remeber, in the USA you can even home school your child as long as the child follows a core curicullum (reading, writing,math,science etc.) and is able to take the same exams that children of his age are doing.. I don't think integrating and keeping one's culture and religion are mutually exclusive. Papa, I am done with the salad, can you pass the main course!!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date >I think we (as Somalis) should pay attention and learn from the experience of the more established muslim communities in the disapora> Xaali, Good point, that would give us a great vantage point and offer us an insight on how they dealt with this issues. If one takes a closer look at the indians they are very good at playing the numbers game. They all move into various quaters and became(or at least try to be) the dominant group in that area. They are not the only ones to play this game, the irish, Italians, Polish, and the Jews all did it. The reason is obvious,,numbers mean everything. They use their numeric strength to canvass for various issues that are crucial to their communities. It is much easier to lobby as a group, it always gurantees you a sympathetic ear on the corridors of power, be it at the school board, or at city council meeting. For instance, the Toronto school board recently passed a law to introduce the teaching of sex education to elemetary school. This law would also introduce to kids the concept of homosexuality as an alternative way of life (God forbid). Kids will be expected to read books like "Mary has two mothers". The muslims in Toronto were poorly organised and were outdone by the gays who put up a strong campaign. The reaction from the somali community was predicable,,,we will send our children back home ..thats it. You and I both know that's another way of justifying our inaction. Everytime there is an outcome that goes against out wish, we hear that infamous line "who cares we are going back anyway" !!! Yes there are lessons to be learned from other communities, and if we are to make a difference we need to borrow a leaf from them. In cities which have a large Somali community somalis whould discard this counter-productive mentality of "I dont want to live near somalis". We should use our strength and resources to build a strong community and also liaise with others who share our values as muslims. If gays can stand up for thier abominable lifestyle,,then we should stand up and fight for the values we believe in.
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| | Unrecorded Date >I think we (as Somalis) should pay attention and learn from the experience of the more established muslim communities in the disapora> Xaali, Good point, that would give us a great vantage point and offer us an insight on how they dealt with this issues. If one takes a closer look at the indians they are very good at playing the numbers game. They all move into various quaters and became(or at least try to be) the dominant group in that area. They are not the only ones to play this game, the irish, Italians, Polish, and the Jews all did it. The reason is obvious,,numbers mean everything. They use their numeric strength to canvass for various issues that are crucial to their communities. It is much easier to lobby as a group, it always gurantees you a sympathetic ear on the corridors of power, be it at the school board, or at city council meeting. For instance, the Toronto school board recently passed a law to introduce the teaching of sex education to elemetary school. This law would also introduce to kids the concept of homosexuality as an alternative way of life (God forbid). Kids will be expected to read books like "Mary has two mothers". The muslims in Toronto were poorly organised and were outdone by the gays who put up a strong campaign. The reaction from the somali community was predicable,,,we will send our children back home ..thats it. You and I both know that's another way of justifying our inaction. Everytime there is an outcome that goes against out wish, we hear that infamous line "who cares we are going back anyway" !!! Yes there are lessons to be learned from other communities, and if we are to make a difference we need to borrow a leaf from them. In cities which have a large Somali community somalis whould discard this counter-productive mentality of "I dont want to live near somalis". We should use our strength and resources to build a strong community and also liaise with others who share our values as muslims. If gays can stand up for thier abominable lifestyle,,then we should stand up and fight for the values we believe in.
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| | Unrecorded Date OOPPS..... SORRY ABOUT THAT GUYS
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| | Unrecorded Date >Xirsi, my suggestion is let us learn from the >experience of established muslim communities. Sister Xaali, I am talking about the "established Muslim communities" that started the Muslim schools which some of our kids are attending. The earlier Muslims are the ones that established the Muslim schools. Do you think the Somalis started this Muslim schooling systems? >I am not denying that various immigrant >communities have schools that they fund and run, >eventhough the quality of some do not meet the >standard. I know of at least 2 cases whereby >schools in Virgina run by immigrants were closed >because they were not up to standard. I'm sure that these "schools" you are talking about are much better standard and have better "qualities" than public schools. Even some American parents can't trust their kids attending some of the private schools, let alone the public schools....That is why you always hear that so many parents(both Muslim and non-Muslim) talking their kids out of the public schools and teaching their kids at home. The standard and the quality in those schools are getting worst and worst everyday. >I don't think integrating and keeping one's >culture and religion are mutually exclusive. What is really "mutually exclusive" is the luxury of having both of worlds in the Muslim school environments: The *learning* of the Islamic teachings/values and the *learning* of the other studies that Muslim kids would have learned in the public schools(like reading, writing, math, science). The public school systems in America today is sadly lacking, and not just in the realm of academic achievement, but children are, in effect, sometimes, risking their lives by attending school. We always hear attacks from some deranged students as young as 6 year old and it is spreading like an epidemic. Police are a common sight on public school grounds, anti-drug campaigns are routine even in elementary schools, kids bring weapons to class and actually killings that happed. You see, sister Xaali, the dichotomy between Muslim schooling/homeschooling and public schooling is the difference between a moral and an immoral system. I hope, sister Xaali, that you do not send your kids to these schools. The alternative of Muslim schooling and the rewards Muslim kids receive outweigh anything that the public schools offer. There is no comparison.
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali, good point. There is indeed many thriving communities which could set an example for us. Caraweelo, i understand your disappoinement in the mosque, having left your husband and children and been bombarded in the mosque of the latest gossip and back-biting news in town by women who are covered from top to toes!!. In countless occasions i have met Imams who when they are not in the "Minbarka" preaching "the evil attributes" of the western societies, have a hobby of offending, back-biting and insulting their fellow muslims!!. As you said the Iman is in our hearts and gives integrity to our personnality. The rest is manipulation, either one is the victim or the manipulator. Obviously the former are far more numerous than the latter. Mullah, Good points. While we are eager to recite the deficiency and the problems of the western societies, those much grosser disfunctions of the "lands of the faith" are unnoticed!. But you forget the hypnosis state we are in!. Any sound human being would understand that North America and Europe are not empty territories which we can form as we like AND get every thing ready-made as well!!. These people as every society has their own deficiencies and problems but with prior knowledge of these problems we have chosen these countries as the best place to settle, and we are still free (even encouraged) to leave if we want to. These people have been good to us to welcome us in "thier" countries in the time of our hardships. We all know what was the attitude of the "lands of the faith" towards us and i don't want to get into it. But this simple evident fact is hard to grasp to many of us. Now what we were discussing here wasn't the western societies problems but our own!. We have the opportunity here, if we want, to establish a strong prospering Somali Communities which while taking the positive things from the societies we live in (and there are many of them), preserve the essence of our positive culture and Somaliness. But that presupposes that we see ourselves as a community which has specific cultural featurs which sets her apart from others and thus a feeling of belonging to each other in the positive sense. Attend to our common intrests here and stay away from the ignorant rasistic hatred toward our host societies or other communities. Helas! The situation today is all differnet. The example Papa mentioned says it all. No positive action at all. We hate our adopted countries, and we don't want to do anything with them, but we have no where else to go neither!.
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| | Unrecorded Date Hawa- You completely missed my point! I am not degrading those that cover- just pointing out that more important then the outward appearance is the inner cleanliness. Xirsi is defending his point of view and giving the rationale for it- without degrading others or attacking them. I suggest, dear lady, that you learn to do the same. You seem to be those who use religion as an armour. Attack others and hide behind "religious words"- what do you gain from that? READ what we are writing and UNDERSTAND it before conveniently retreating behind- "these ppl defend good and bad".... To others; Re: sex education in the public school classrooms- there is a way to circumvent it- at the beginning of every school yr, the school board mails a note to parents basically saying that if you don't want your child to be taught sex education in the classroom, you can sign the note. The choice is there. Countless others have done so- not only muslims. Also, for the celebration of our "culture" and "religion"- we, as parents, can play a role in our schools. Attend Parent-Teacher Conferences, be active in the PTA. Visit the classrooms. I am involved in my children's schools. I tell the teacher about our religion and holidays- their significance and meaning. I have presented in my children's classrooms- talks about Islam. Get the teacher and the school involved. My children know their are muslims and behave like muslims- even when surrounded by christians in a public school. They are young and guess what! They pray in the middle of the day AT SCHOOL! Their choice not imposed on them! They feel special! Actually my youngest daughter is telling her classmates that they are "wrong" and should pray to ALLAH!!!! a good foundation....... It is not where the child is- but how the child is brought up that matters! Having a lobby is IMPORTANT! That is key. But today, the majority of Somalis are poor and uneducated. They can not represent any socio-political clout. This is where we differ from the lebenese, indians, and pakistanis. Most of the indians, pakistanis, and lebenese that come to america are educated and wealthy. They are the ones that came to america by choice. We didn't. Most of us came because we had no where else to go. Political refugees with no means. They are organized and can play a role in america- Case in point- the recent travel of Clinton to India- notice how much longer he stayed in india vs pakistan! The key is having clout. So what can we do- get those somalis into "main stream" america. and we can't do that if they are isolated in their own "community", unable to speak the language and dependant on "handouts". The point is to try to "assimilate"- not remain in the outskirts of a "culture"- by hiding behind religion. Remember there is a separation if "religion" and "state"- And America is a "tossed-salad"- let us celebrate our difference and build for the future. Speaking about salad- when do we eat the real food- hilib ari iyo bariis? look frwd to reading your critiques!
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| | Unrecorded Date Warsame, >Helas! The situation today is all differnet. The >example Papa mentioned says it all. No positive >action at all. I thought that we were discussing and doing the *positive* action that serves our Muslim kids better(schools that offer positive things), which indeed the earlier Muslim communities that are "thriving set an example for us". >We hate our adopted countries No, maybe you, Warsame, is the one who hates to see Somali Muslim parents *adopting*, *implementing* and *embraceing* what is theirs(their Islamic values) and taking advantage of the system(the establishing Muslim schools). >we don't want to do anything with them, but we >have no where else to go neither!. But, Warsame, we do not have to do "everything" that the other people do in order to be in this country, do we? Tell that to the some of the Jewish, Christian and other groups(like the Muslims) who already decided and "wanted" that their kids be out of the public schools, so that they would not have to do "anything with" what goes on those public schools.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, >So what can we do- get those somalis into "main >stream" america. and we can't do that if they >are isolated in their own "community", unable to >speak the language and dependant on "handouts". As you know, Somali kids in the States "speak the language" better than their parents, especially if they are born in here. These kids begin to express their opinions before they can talk and will certainly express their feelings with anyone. Besides, the Muslim schools are taught in the English language. Sure, there are some Somali children who cannot interact with their American neighbors. They feel shy or feel like they cannot talk to them, but Muslims school are not the things that make them that way. There are many American kids who feel shy and feel they can't talk to other American kids also. When you and I were kids and growing up in Somalia, we were not allowed to express our feeling in front of everyone, especially the little girls. Now that we are in here, we feel we can express in English which we were not taught back home. You and I can interact with the Americans and anyone else in the English we've learned outside the country(at least I did). I know that no one wants his or her child going through isolation, but we should protect them from what is not our values. We want our kids to be able to interact with all the children here in the US, but in Muslim schools, there are children from different ethnic backgrounds, all speaking in english, including Americans of white and black(the true melting pot). Yes, there is suppose to be a separation of "religion" and "state" in America, but as I mentioned before, nothing is taught to anyone in this world without there being some *ideology* behind it and what is taught in public schools sometimes is someone's beliefs other than Islam. Islamic Schools are good sources of being a good Muslim as well as protection.
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| | Unrecorded Date Hi all. Quich note to xirsi. For future reference, please, please, please, when you read the post of other people read it in its totality. You are selecting lines from what I wrote and then putting a total different spin on it. Careweelo, love the tossed salad concept!! who is going to be the lettuce??
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| | Unrecorded Date Response to Xaali: You are accusing me of putting some words in your mouth that you didn't say. If I select the lines from what your own words--- that does not mean I’m taking your own words out-of-context in order to mean it something else. Please, can you point out where I misinterpreted, manipulated and turned around you own words to my advantage.
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| | Unrecorded Date Xirsi- sending a child to a muslim school is a choice some parents may or may not excercise. Regardless, the point I am trying to make is to say that the public schools are not as bad as you think they are. Also in the area we live in, the only muslim schools available are those run by the Saudis and regardless of what they (the Suadis) profess on the outside- they are the most racist bunch of people I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. I grew up with them so I can not idealize them! Believe me- an education with the so-called "infidels" beats one by the saudis- any day! Also most of the somali children that are born here in the west, the ones that left somalia after the "troubles"- are only in elementary- less than 10 yrs of age- we can't really judge how they "turned out", now can we? We can't really speak of the impact of the "public schools" on them. When I refered to somalis that are living separately in their own communities, I was refering to the majority of families that came to the west- most of them are in their early/mid twenties, working in blue-collar jobs with the older ones staying at home and the early/late teen population being obssessed with "rap" and "hip hop"- the only outside interaction they happen to pursue are "dugsi" at the local mosques and hanging out with each other for wedding/sar tun/ninkah and the like. and those "muslim schools" that you refer to- the ones with the racialy mixed students and teachers- are they accredited? If private, how much do they cost? And how do they score as far as standard of learning (SOL) and SAT's? Do they provide the growing mind with activities- such as physical ed, soccer, baseball, music classes, art lessons? For girls? Are the classes segregated? Boys from girls. What is the cirriculum like? Do you have first hand knowledge of these schools? Do you have kids that attend these schools? Or is your debate one of purely theoretical nature.
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| | Unrecorded Date Xirsi, you can twist my words and take them out of context if you wish. Indeed as long as you exercise debate (sort of) and refrain from the personal attacks it's already a posotive sign. (Though you already accuse me of hating somali parents sending their children to muslim schools!) But obviously we couldn't have a fruitfull discussion, that's why i try not take up your points, but by all means take up mine. You see you have, according to you, god-given quick and easy-cut, solutions which will fix every problem we have. To you it's clear that if we all send our children to arab/muslim schools, cover ourselves, wear arab/pakistani dress evey problem we have, will be solved. It doesn't matter that this is to a large extent and as a result of many years campaign, is exactly what has been achieved!!. I understand that this is religious matter to you and that you think you have picked up "ajar" defending the religion in this issue!. But i don't expect you'll ever grasp the issues we are talking about. But we have to put up with you, indeed as i said, that you read these articles and respond without declaring Jihad is already a sucess and besides compared to Hawa (who accused Papa to have neglected his prayers!!) you are an intelligent person!.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo: Good points sis, however could you clarify a little bit on this point that you mentioned in your earlier Post. >But today, the majority of Somalis are poor and uneducated. They can not represent any socio-political clout. This >is where we differ from the lebenese, indians, and pakistanis. Most of the indians, pakistanis, and lebenese that >come to america are educated and wealthy. Do you mean being poor & uneducated makes it hopeless to have any influence on the political process? If that is the case, the main problem (why we don’t have Clout) resides with us in that we can never sustain any form of Unity “Courtesy of our Clan bickering”, the necessary ingredient that carries weight as a voting Block both on the District & State level (for those in USA) where these politicians are elected. There is nothing more threatening to Politicians than voting power.
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaam Guys Dhamaantiin waad mahad santihiin Doodiina, Waxaan rabaa inaan wax ku darsado. Anigu waxaan Ahay father dhalay 3 ciyaal ah laba Gabdhood iyo Wiil, Dadoodu tahay 11, 14 iyo 15, marka waxaan U maleyn inaan Public schoolka xooga idiinka waroonahay. Waxaa dhacday in Maalin in gabdhahygu Ii soo sheegeen in , Health Class loo dhigay maanta, waxaa arin maxaa la idiin dhigay , waxay dheheen Macalimada ayaa ka hadleysey sida Aids looga hor tago iyo Ilmaha, waxaa la keenay Moose iyo Condom Markaas ayaa la yiri saas ha loo sameeyo. Aniguu aad ayaan uga xumaaday waan dacweeyey Macalimiddd Waxaa la yiri waa arin Muhiima waxaa students la baraa sida Uurka oo laga hortago, laakiin waxay dheheen tusaalayaasha waan joojin. Maalin danbe waxaa dhacaday Iney dhehee oo weliba waraaq ii keenen Ay lee yihiin Health Classka ayaa nala soo siiyey, oo la lee yahay safe sex waa oralka oo weliba (New England Medical Journal ) Ayaa yiri ilkaha waxaa u fiican Raga Biyahooda , marka waa safe inaad Sameysaan. Arintii waxay igu noqotay arin cajiib ah. Gabdhihii Maalintii ayaan schoolka ka joojiyey Waxaan geeyey Islamic school oo aan weliba awoodin, waxaa dhacaday , iney noqdeen kuwa schoolka Ugu fiican, Akhlaaq iyo wax barashaba iyagoo grade 11 iney ka shaqeeyaan Calculus maths ka shaqeeyaan Oo waxaan xusuustaa our Freezer waxaa ku dhagaan jirey sawirada Spicy girls and so on, hada waxaa Ku dhagan Subxaana Allaah iyo magac Allaah, marka hadalkaa dheer oo dhan waxaan kawaday Walaashey Araweelo waxay sheegeyso oo dhan waxba kama jiraan public school Ilmaha banaanka Isku dhuuqayaan, maxaa ka soo baxay ila yar yar oo meeshaa la dhexgeeyey. Gaaladii ayaa hada Dhigta Islaamic schoolka, Subixii Duca ayaa la akhrin, Salaada Jameeco ayaa lagu tukan, Qofkii Kaa horyimaada wuxuu ku oran Aslaama Calykum, Macalimkii waa Muslim oo si fiican ayuu wax Kuu barin. Walaashey iney ugu yeerto second level waa insult Allaahna hooga noqoto eragaas, Mida ah Nacaybka Carbata Abaayo qofka wixiisa miyaad kula dagaalamin, mise ku waan ayaa Kuu dhaama, Walaal Saudi Arabia Waxaa noo keenay Islaama kama go I korno. General speaking Ma fiicana, Aduunka Soomali wax ka xun miyaad argtay 10 dowlad la,aan ah oo weliba hada aa Rajo jirin. Aabe xanaaqsan
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, >sending a child to a muslim school is a choice >some parents may or may not excercise. Yes, and there is nothing wrong with that, is there? In fact, Muslim school is the best choice these parents can make for their kids while they are in this country, considering the circumstances of the public schools in their area. >Regardless, the point I am trying to make is to >say that the public schools are not as bad as >you think they are. And the point I'm trying to make is that those Muslim schools are much better than the public schools. >Also in the area we live in, the only muslim >schools available are those run by the Saudis >and regardless of what they (the Suadis) profess >on the outside- they are the most racist bunch >of people I have ever had the misfortune to deal >with. I grew up with them so I can not idealize >them! Believe me- an education with the so->called "infidels" beats one by the saudis- any >day! Yes, there are no "Saudi" schools in Atlanta; there are Muslim schools run by non-Arabs. Yes, there are some Saudis(not all of them) who are racist towards the Somalis. Saudis do not own the diin and I do not "idealize" anybody. I have never been to Saudi Arabia. I know we live in a world where there are many kinds of biases, prejudices and racism, but the hate, the prejudice and bias the Somalis have for one another is more dangerous than anything else; it is what brought us to America and to Saudi Arabia. >Also most of the somali children that are born >here in the west, the ones that left somalia >after the "troubles"- are only in elementary- >less than 10 yrs of age- we can't really judge >how they "turned out", now can we? Yes, these children are the ones I'm talking about and these are the ones that we need to protect and instill in them our values and culture. Looks like most of us didn't follow our culture and values, even when we were back home. >We can't really speak of the impact of the >"public schools" on them. We see the "impact" they will have in the eyes of those who are now attending the public schools and their behavior. >When I refered to somalis that are living >separately in their own communities, I was >refering to the majority of families that came >to the west- most of them are in their early/mid >twenties, working in blue-collar jobs with the >older ones staying at home and the early/late >teen population being obssessed with "rap" and >"hip hop"- the only outside interaction they >happen to pursue are "dugsi" at the local >mosques and hanging out with each other for >wedding/sar tun/ninkah and the like. You left out the ones attending the public high schools and their behaviour. >and those "muslim schools" that you refer to- >the ones with the racialy mixed students and >teachers- are they accredited? Yes, they are. It is the law that they have to be "accredited" and they only hire certified and qualified teachers. >? If private, how much do they cost? $200 to $300, depending on the income of the parents. In some cases, there are children who attend these schools without money coming out their parent's account, because there is none; thus, they do not have money---someone else sponsors them. >And how do they score as far as standard of >learning (SOL) and SAT's? Most students score better grades, compare to the average state scores in Georgia. >Do they provide the growing mind with >activities- such as physical ed, soccer, >baseball, music classes, art lessons? Yes, I've seen these in my own eyes. >For girls? And for boys. >Are the classes segregated? Boys from girls. Depends on the ages of the students. >What is the cirriculum like? The 3Rs and science along with Arabic language and some basic Islamic teachings/etiquettes(Aqlaqaad/tarbiyaad) >Do you have first hand knowledge of these >schools? Yes, I do. >Do you have kids that attend these schools? Or >is your debate one of purely theoretical nature. No, but I've two nieces who attend there(my older brother's children). I've been to their school many times and even seen their report cards and the test statistics when compare to the state schools.
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| | Unrecorded Date Warsame, >Xirsi, you can twist my words and take them out >of context if you wish. That is your wishful thinking, my brother. >Indeed as long as you exercise debate (sort of) >and refrain from the personal attacks it's >already a posotive sign. (Though you already >accuse me of hating somali parents sending their >children to muslim schools!) I didn't accuse you of hating people. I accused you of hating the idea of send kids to Muslim schools. Besides, you are the one who said "We hate our adopted countries", talking and including, of course, you and me. I told you I do not hate anybody. You accuse me of hating countries. >But obviously we couldn't have a fruitfull >discussion, that's why i try not take up your >points, but by all means take up mine. LoL >You see you have, according to you, god-given >quick and easy-cut, solutions which will fix >every problem we have. no, we are just discussing things, my brother. It just so happenes that your opinion is different than mine, that is all. >To you it's clear that if we all send our >children to arab/muslim schools, I do not think Arabs own the Muslim schools in Atlanta, but if you think every Muslim school is an Arab school, then do you think Muslims are Arabs too? LoL >cover ourselves, cover ourselves, wear >arab/pakistani dress evey problem we have will >be solved., We cover ourselves in many different clothes, right, including qamis and armani clothes? LoL >It doesn't matter that this is to a large extent >and as a result of many years campaign, is >exactly what has been achieved!!. I didn't understand what that means, but I'm LoL >I understand that this is religious matter to >you and that you think you have picked up "ajar" >defending the religion in this issue!. What is wrong with discussing religion, Warsame? >But i don't expect you'll ever grasp the issues >we are talking about. But we have to put up with >you, indeed as i said, that you read these >articles and respond without declaring Jihad is >already a sucess and besides compared to Hawa >(who accused Papa to have neglected his >prayers!!) you are an intelligent person!. Thank you, Warsame.
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| | Unrecorded Date Aabe Xanaaqsan: Am really fighting hard not to laugh at your claim below, but we will give you the benefit of the doubt. Why don’t you tell us the Date of the New England Medical Journal, as you know they are available in the public Libraries. >Maalin danbe waxaa dhacaday Iney dhehee oo weliba waraaq ii keenen >Ay lee yihiin Health Classka ayaa nala soo siiyey, oo la lee yahay safe sex waa oralka oo weliba (New England >Medical Journal ) Ayaa yiri ilkaha waxaa u fiican Raga Biyahooda , marka waa safe inaad >Sameysaan. Never cease to amaze how far people are willing to go “even generate stories out of the Blue sky” in attempt to strength their points……lol
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| | Unrecorded Date Carawelo; >Having a lobby is IMPORTANT! That is key. But today, the majority of Somalis are poor and uneducated. They can not represent any socio-political clout. This is where we differ from the lebenese, indians, and pakistanis. Most of the indians, pakistanis, and lebenese that come to america are educated and wealthy< In a democracy the biggest clout a group could have is not wealth but thier ability to organise and vote as a block. Politics makes strange bedfellows,for instance, we could always liaise with Jews and christian lobby groups in defeating the gay agenda. > Are the classes segregated? Boys from girls> Most opponents of Islamic schools seem to stress the point (or at least infer) that girls are discriminated against in Islamic schools. Separation does Not necessarily mean that the education that girls get is inferior. Not in this part of the wolrd. There are certain standards that are adhered to, which are established by the school boards. But in mostly poor and developing Muslims countries this is not often the case. Due to scarce resources and conflicing priorities boys education is given more attention.If you analyse this further you will find that this is not by design but rather by default. There is no set policy that favour boys, these are ad hoc decisions that people are forced to make given the circumstances. The situation in north america is much different, the resources are there, infact there was an article in one of the dailies here in Toronto which carried a study done by the catholic school board. It showed that when boys and girls are separated the girls tend to perform better, they are more competitive with each other, in the co-ed class one of the obstacles that the girls cited was that the boys are a big distraction in class. Xaali, the main course is coming up, will you have your banana with the meal or you take it as dessert ??? Lastly; Lets view people as individuals, regardless of their ethnic affiliation. Arabs should not be held on a higher moral ground than you and I. Islam as a religion is Perfect. Human beigns are fallible...regarless of their background.
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| | Unrecorded Date XX2, i couldn't said better about the small ad of aabe xanaaqsan. I was wondering if the so called "muslim school" chiefs were following this debate! I see that what has started as a well to the point debate about our existence and being in the diaspora has degenarated in to a yes/no arguing about public/"muslim" schools!. The problem of our children here is alarming and needs a lot of concern. But if by sending these children to arab/muslim schools, separating boys from girls and teaching them arabic will solve their problem and thus ours, let's send them en masse! (They started doing exactly that nowadays all over Somalia). It'll only be one of the many quick solutions we have been promised in the past years; New "more islamic" sects, new more islamic dress, so why not more "islamic" schools and languages!!. But i believe that we will once again be terribly disappointed, and the result will be more confusion, anger and hopelessness. We ARE muslims, but the childrens problems are only one symptom of the many problems we are facing here as Somalis. So it'll be more productive to analyse the problem as such, even if we are having a "disturbing noises"! to borrow a term from Shonnons "Mathematical theory of communication). Now, Caraweelo has raised the issue of poverty and lack of education while Mullah has pointed out the tribal bickering which has prevented us from any kind of communal voice and unity. I definitely agree with you guys. It's amazing to follow the vertically opposed paths of the average somali mind-set. In one level he is exclusively clanist who have nothing but distrust and contempt to other somali clans, but on the other level, when we are together we end up discussing the latest turns of events in Israel/Palestine, Chechnya, Saudi Royal Family, Turkish elections.... and in more many far fetched places!!. But nothing about our own problems and how to solve them, and even when our problems come up rather un-intentionally, one is suddenly complacent and has no longer any interest!!!. To go back to the above cited problems, i think it's difficult to rank them, as they are like the egg and the chicken!. But if i were to rank them i'd say lack of education and ignorance is our biggest problem.
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| | Unrecorded Date Gentlemen and Lady Xaali; People, I think I will drop this debate of muslim vs public schools! It is obvious that we are not getting anywhere. The discussion became circular. As I said earlier, sending a child to private (whether secular or non) or public, is a choice a parent has to make. My brother Xirsi is basing his argument on the schools available in Atlanta and I am basing mine on the schools avail in the North East. Abe Xanagsana waxuu ka hadlaya meel aanan garaneen! Nowhere has there ever EVER been a discussion about Oral sex being good for a person! I know that at sex ed classes it is taught that the HIV virus can be transmitted orally! So abe xanaqsan waxaad shegeysid walaal waxba kama jiraan oo waa poropagando! Now back to the poverty issue. My apologies for not explaining myself. Poverty in itself does not make a society weak, but the ramifications of poverty does. What I mean by this is simple, when a community is poor, they tend to live in poor areas. We all know that schools, public that is, are financed with the property tax collected. Therefore, the quality of schools of an area reflect the taxes paid. When a school district is affluent, the schools have a higher PC per capita, a smaller teacher to student ratio, and better libraries. The children are followed more closely and they perform better. Schools in poor districts do not. The student to teacher ratio is incredibly high. And unless the child has strong familial input, it is hard to learn much. Back to the poor somali, most families live in poor district, the children interact with "problem" children from broken homes. The parent CAN NOT help the child with the school work because the parent does not speak the language or understand the school work. On the other hand, the parent is STRUGGLING to live day to day. A job, taking care of his/her children. They have their hands full. They hardly listen to the news or follow local politics. They are not involved at the local/county/state politics. Because they are poor, they do not contribute to anyone's campaign. And those that have the right to vote, hardly excersise their right. So THEY ARE IGNORED! To add to this problem, is the tribal distrust/hatered that lies between all somalis. So the result is a fragmented, socially and politically weak group. The lebanese/indians/pakistanis, on the other hand are stronger. Most of them are educated parents with educated kids. Drs/Technicians/scientists/business owners living in middle class areas. They pay a great deal in taxes- hence they are listened to. The solution that PaPa raised makes sense. Maybe we should join forces with others, depending on the issues at hand, to make a difference. But it will not change the fact that as a society no one gives a hoot about us. Remember "Bulworth"- when he tells the black voters at a town meeting- something like- I don't give @#$* about you as long as you sit there eating/drinking and not contributing a dime to my campaign! So lets not delude ourselves, one changes things by either having the $$$ to change things or the numbers! We have neither!
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| | Unrecorded Date Warsame, >I see that what has started as a well to the >point debate about our existence and being in >the diaspora has degenarated in to a yes/no >arguing about public/"muslim" schools!. That is right. You say NO to public schools for our kids and I say YES to it; I Yes to Muslim school and you say NO to Muslim school for our Muslim kids. >The problem of our children here is alarming and >needs a lot of concern. I agree >But if by sending these children to arab/muslim >schools, separating boys from girls and teaching >them arabic will solve their problem and thus >ours, let's send them en masse! (They started >doing exactly that nowadays all over Somalia). And you think sending these children to private/public schools run by non-Muslims, where sex is taught to the boys and girls, will solve their problem and ours, Warsame? >It'll only be one of the many quick solutions we >have been promised in the past years; New "more >islamic" sects, new more islamic dress, so why >not more "islamic" schools and languages!!. Warsame, "Islamic dress" is not new to the Somalis; it is their culture. You see, your problem is that you think Islamic values and teachings is not our culture, but you think it is an Arab culture.! Also learning and teaching Arabic language is needed in our lives. There isn't a day where a Muslim(in any country) would not use the language of Arabic. It is a must for a Muslim to learn the Arabic language or else how would he or she perform the worship(the salaat), the most important thing to a Muslim? Can you perform SALAAT in English that is taught in public schools, Warsame?
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| | Unrecorded Date You say Yes to public schools for our kids and I say NO to it; I say Yes to Muslim school and you say NO to Muslim school for our Muslim kids
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, >My brother Xirsi is basing his argument on the >schools available in Atlanta and I am basing >mine on the schools avail in the North East. Most likely that there are Muslim schools run by non-Saudis in the other big cities in the North East, like Maryland, New York, Philadelphia, New Jersey etc...., where Somali and many other Muslim kids attend and take advantage of the opportunity.
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaama Caleeykum, Aaba Xanaaqsan, fadlan waxaan ka codsanayaa inaad maqaalka lagu soo qoray tilmaan buuxda naga siiso, Journalka lagu soo dabacay magaciisa iyo caadadgu taariikhadda uu soo baxaay, iyo qoraaga magaciisa. Mahadsanid
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo: Thanks for Clarifying it. Yes the Majority of Somalis are poor & may not even know how to make their voices heard or take time to care about politics. But what about those educated class & semi-middle class who have been here for a long time & know the in & out of the system here including Politics??? The other example of “Bulworth” not giving a hoot about us. That’s exactly the point, nobody gives a hoot till you make them give hoot about you, one has to force their hands & there are lot of ways among other things including “Money & Numbers” but no limited to that. To put in little perspective, let me tell you about a personal story that happened in my community. I live in an area, which’s not part of the large Somali populated states. The Demography of the Somali population composed of quite a number Somalis who came as a Refugees & smaller number who came here while back for education and then settled, most of the latter work in professional & semi professional jobs on the State, Federal and the private sector. As you might expect, lot of problems arose for the newly arrived (Most sponsored by churches by the way), * Housing Problems * Schooling * Not understanding the language * Limited transportation And on and on. The whole Somali community got together and it was decided that a new Organization was required to address those issues as well as to bring the people together on social basis. We formed this an organization run by volunteers (talk about juggling priorities, work, family and running the Org). One of the first order of business was to get all the addresses of the Somali families & then Broke it down to those who were naturalized Citizens i.e. able to vote & permanent resident’s. We then made an appointment of the Local district House representative & Senator of the area & introduced ourselves, obviously impressing on him our Number (not much but potential voters for him provided he help us with our community needs). The First visit produced letters of recommendations to the State in giving us our fair share of funds as a paying tax citizens. Next, order was to sit with the already established ethnic communities i.e. Ethiopians, Loatians, Vietnams e.t.c. who were far more versed than us in egging out funds from the state for their communities & learn the ropes so to speak as well as form an alliance with them. Believe it or not, the state send some of our members to a free seminars in learning how to write proposals to the state, as well as workshops on how the state & federal funds are dispensed to the communities & non-profit Org’s. We also made ourselves invited to the local Democratic receptions to get to know the movers & shakers and made ourselves above every thing known to them that we are a potential voting block to be tapped into come election season. To bring a long story short, every thing worked as planned, we were able to get funds from the state as well as contributions from us. Some of the stuff we were able to do were; * Organize Eid Picnic’s for all Somalis in the area. * Hire Lawyer to deal with all legal issues facing the community on need basis * Hired Outside Auditor to keep log of all in coming & out-going funds * Talked to school boards about unique issues facing Somali students and fashioned after similar curriculums made for prior immigrant communities i.e. more English classes, after school help with studies e.t.c * Workshops for wives i.e. ESL * Established a Somali newspaper (actually more a coffee table reading) that was published monthly where the Academic achievements of kids was published along with their pictures & trophies were given, graduations e.t.c as well as general issues like Jobs, Somali news. * We also funded Somali singers i.e. Omar Yare..lol & raised funds too We were actually operational for a short while to execute successfully most of goals, but finally the Org was cut at knees not because we didn’t have the muscle despite our dismal numbers to make the system work for us, but because * Constant cloud of suspicion * Complacent among us * General indifference to the worth of the Organization to the community These efforts are nothing new & were already done in other parts of US & Canada successfully, Those who came 1st & got the Education can where possible take upon themselves to lead the unfortunate ones but this efforts are always handicapped as usual by tribal problems as well as Some religious zealots (for better or worse)who look at every thing with suspicion & label those they don’t approve as un-islamic & the fact is these people carry a lot weight in the communities. So the analogy that we will be helpless so long as we don’t have deep pockets $$$$ or the numbers is not really true, there is a saying “Where there is a will there’s a way”. Resilience and persistence despite the odds has always been a cornerstone of our culture.
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| | Unrecorded Date Great story Mullah- Brother, thanks for sharing it. You give me hope. You are right, instead of focusing on the "big" achievements, we should take all the steps we can. Slowly in time, and persistence, we may get there. Could you elaborate on the "cloud of suspicion"- without getting into the dirty details. Just curious- trust me, I am not planning to form any "organization"- :-) Xirsi- I think we are beating a dead horse!
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| | Unrecorded Date AMA KAAGEEY GOORTII DOODAN DHAN WALBA AAN KA EEGAY. waxaa i ciilay af kaa english ka mahinee doodaan hal dhirbaaxsho aan ka geeysan lahaa.laakiin inaan furo waaye goob waxbarasho oo luuqadaha lagu barto siiba englishka si dadka u ciil qabaa uugu taba bartaan!!!! hadii kale istijaabinta luuqadeed waxay dhaawacee arin laga falan qoon lahaa.hadana intii layga xumaan lahaa ninkaa aayar aamusaan ahay ee. to:caroweelo adiga polic aaba kuraadinayay waxaa laguu heeystaa dilkii marxuum kii ODAYBIIQE adna mahaanaa doodee ar hooy waa dulmigaas!!!!! waakabaxay.
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| | Unrecorded Date Carweelo, >Xirsi- I think we are beating a dead horse! I agree!
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah, >These efforts are nothing new & were already >done in other parts of US & Canada successfully, >Those who came 1st & got the Education can where >possible take upon themselves to lead the >unfortunate ones but this efforts are always >handicapped as usual by tribal problems as well >as Some religious zealots (for better or worse)>who look at every thing with suspicion & label >those they don’t approve as un-islamic & the >fact is these people carry a lot weight in the >communities. Because of the difference of tribe, the so called Somali educators can’t even agree with each other. Because of the difference of sects, the so called “religious zealots” can't even agree with each other. Facts: All "religious zealots" are not *uneducated*. Those who came to the US & Canada *first* are not all *educated”. Those who came to US & Canada *last* are not *uneducated*. Education does not mean someone speaks in english fluently or he or she has been in North America for long time. As you know, there were *educated* people who received degrees from Somalia; some of them came to US & Canada after the civil war. As you know, educators,(whether they have been in North America for long time or not) are still addicted to the tribal mentality. Each group has ambitions to rule the country one day in their addiction. The so called "educators" are no different than the so called “religious zealots” who also want to rule the country in their ways. There is a "suspicion" between every Somali, educated or not, religious or not. Each group thinks their ways are the correct way for Somalia and for the Somalis(be they in or out of the country).
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| | Unrecorded Date To: Areweelo Your Anti-Islam Anti-Morality Anti-Good Vision When I remember what Caliphate Omer said when Muslims Took Over Qudus from Romans, Omar Cry and the ppl asked him why your crying today we have a victory, he said that Islam spread every Where and one time Islam will be down, because people who born left him and follow there Egos. That is what we have today, Like Areweelo with her two-cent group calling ppl with Hijab Second level and loathing Islamic schools. May allaah give them what they deserve soon for Attacking Islam Blindly or Guide them.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah, good efforts anyway. The end was well familiar and so were the reasons which led the failure!. Caraweelo, you've clarified well the issue of poverty. But i think that the answer of both the tribalism and poverty is education. In fact (this is not a clear cut, as i said, but allow me the rhetoric!) i think that what we badly need in our communities is not that much millions of dollars but education and a CULTURE of education. The root of our marginality is not necessarly that we don't have deep pockets, but that we don't have the attitudes which would enable us to empower ourselves, i.e. studying, educating ourselves. And we tend to marginalize those who have educated themselves. Mullah was saying that the zealots carry a lot of weight in the communities. Anybody with enough determination, positive attitudes and very little money in the beginning, can make it in these countries. We see daily empovirished people flocking in to these countries from all over the world and making it in front of our eyes. But most of us don't like to study and even consider it as a waste of time, have you guys observed this?!. We like to cheat, insult others and get easy money!. And here we come to the familiar territory of tribalism, poverty. And As calamities never come alone we got fanaticism as a bonus on top of that!!. Now, is there any hope?!. Yes, as long as there is people who are making efforts to change things. Also if more somalis get educated and form their own middle class and attend to their own ethnic Somali interests, instead of the tribal ones! they could lead the way. Another reason for hope is time; that the longer we stay in the West, the more we realize that we are hitting the wall and that we must change course! How about charismatic leaders in our communities, posotive ones that is?!. Is it impossible?, not so sure.
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| | Unrecorded Date Carawelo: "When a school district is affluent, the schools have a higher PC per capita, a smaller teacher to student ratio, and better libraries" and better tables manners, you may add,,, We started this topic talking about life in surburbia and the values that are emphasised or come with that territory. While emphasis is put on certain things, we have neglected or became indifferent to our core values and the essence of our humanity -- our Religion. When there is a moral vacuum social evils,, became inevitable; its in surburbia where Kids are killing kids in school, and children are having babies ? They gather all the so called "Experts" on CNN and try to figure out why this is happening in the surburbs ? its suppose to happen in the poor neighbourhoods, where there are broken families, e.t.c, They just cant figure out why? they conclude they need to study the issue..they say humans are rational beings we know what is right and wrong and act accordingly. They try as much as they can to down-play religion and or the lack of it as a factor. But actually, Humans are moral beings and what gives us our morality as Muslims is our faith in Islam. But we seem to overlook this at times. The emphasis is on table manners, they are quick to correct the kids, and tell them that they are using the wrong spoon,, but no one will corrects them if they forget to say,,,, bismillah We strive for prosperity, but lets not forget that its our Iman that makes us thrive.,
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah; where there is a Will,,I wanna be in it !!
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| | Unrecorded Date to Hawa- First of all, my penname is "Caraweelo" and not "Arawelo"- are you confusing me with someone else? Amazing that based on what I posted, anywhere, can lead you to call me "anti-Islam", "anti-morality" and "anti good-vision". You said "I loathed Islamic schools" and you said I was "attacking islam blindly" Where is all that I wrote did I "attack islam"? Where did I say that I "loathed" or even hated (milder)- islamic schools? You insulted me and you cursed me. Didn't they teach you not to curse people you don't know? Didn't they tell you that if you curse someone, and your curse is invalid, it will come back to you? Is Islam only about Hijab? Did I say I hated the hijab? Reading what you wrote makes me angry. But you know what, anger is one of shaytaan's tools. I will overcome it. so....thanks for the "Ajar" you gave me this morning! Allah knows my intention and what I said. Only Allah knows and understands me. And only Allah can reward me accordingly. That is all I have to say to you. Back to PaPa's original discussion- PaPa, you seem to imply that if someone moves to suburbia, they loose their moral standing or their connection to their religion. I disagree completely. I can only speak for the people I know. They all live in "suburbia"- not because they are richer than others- but because you get more house for the money out in suburbia! (even though the commute is a killer!)- They all send their kids to learn the quran and proper muslim behaviour. Most of them pray and fast. They also pay taxes and are hard-working. They are making it in this country, against all odds. So to say that just beacuse they have "table manners", and live in suburbia, they are not saying "bismillah"- is untrue and spiteful. Maybe you have met some that don't. Tell me, who are you basing your premise on? What have you seen?
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| | Unrecorded Date Carawelo, unfortunately I have seen the degradation of morality in surburbia, where "some" of us are more concerned about how to impress the neighbours at the expense of our own culture and religion. "They will think we are weird bla,,bla,,bla, so we "loosen up". Anyway hope you catch the drift no need for me to go into details, all am saying is this trend is there, anyway, I gotta run....
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| | Unrecorded Date oh shoot! this must be da long essay section.
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| | Unrecorded Date EXCITING I hope we can continue objective disscussion.
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| | Unrecorded Date Hi all Folks Let me share a true little Joke pertaining to this topic; Back in the 60’s when we were on the brink of getting independence, lots Somalis overseas rushed home to partake the running of the Country. One of those was a gentleman who was a member of one of two Christian Somali Families at the time. While he was preparing to depart for the Homeland with the intention of running for high post in the newly about to be formed Gov’t, one of his foreign friends asked him “ But Ahmed (Not True Name) how are you ever gonna be elected, You are Christian and that country is virtually all Muslim? Ahmed laughed & said, you don’t understand my country…we have something stronger than religion there. Offcourse this was delivered in a jokingly fashion but What do you think… was he on the money????????????????? :-) By the way he was successfully elected & took a major role in shaping the new Nation …Some of you may know the person…may Allah bless his soul, he is no longer with us P.S. He converted to Islam way before he passed away.
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| | Unrecorded Date >Ahmed laughed & said, you don’t understand my country…we have something stronger >than religion there. Offcourse this was delivered in a jokingly fashion but What do you >think… was he on the money????????????????? :-) By the way he was successfully >elected & took a major role in shaping the new Nation I think he was "on the money". The religion he talked about(jokingly) *overwhelmed* him finally.! :-)
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| | Unrecorded Date Ladies and Gentlemen: It is a great pleasure for me to participate in a discussion of a such calibre, I must admit that your discussion, which ever side of the argument, have stirred me and gave me the hope that such objective thinking minds is abundantly available among our Somali youth. Ladies and Gentlemen: you have raised an important question which drifts through the minds of Somali Diaspora, every minute of their Diaspora life, it envelopes our most valuable asset in our lives, our children, and their sense of belonging and what might be called “CULTURE”, but isn’t it also the case that this discussion also concerns us as individual entities and as a society what our standing will be wherever we might be living? Keeping that question in mind and hovering over both sides of this valuable argument, it struck me that no body have mentioned what I personally think is one of the most important part of this discussion, that is; what sort of live do WE want to live for the rest of our lives? It is a simple question, and it may initially sound irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I personally view this Diaspora life to be a temporary one, and for that reason I am compelled to take measures of both temporary and permanent nature. I should ask for your forgiveness if I happen to sound hopelessly optimist and happen to think that one-day my family and I will be back to Somalia. I personally will not feel comfortable to live within a society where I am either treated as a second class citizen in blunt or in subtle form, if the society is not accommodating, or if the society is accommodating enough I again do not wish to live in a society where I am tolerated or put up with. Ladies and gentlemen I believe I am entitled to live a dignified life, full of inner confidence, I also believe that the cream of our society, like yourselves, would like to lead a life where they will feel they can make a difference rather that insignificantly melt with any trans-national melting pot. Although a valid point has been made pertaining to the study of the immigrant communities who came before us and see how did they adopt to this country, it is also important to notice that some communities did not have the option to go back to their country of origin, for whole host of reasons which I think is not facing us Somalis. Some of these communities could not simply go back because of the stiff competition of resources and space in their country i.e. china, India etc, or there is a malignant persecutory reasons which makes ‘going back option’ simply impossibly. Now, let us be honest and ask ourselves whether we Somalis face such obstructions? I fully understand what has happened in Somalia and I am one of the victims, but I still believe that, it is a big hump in the road, which we will pass over. For me the issues will be clarifying, planning and purifying how to take those measures of temporary and permanent nature, one pertaining to our transit life and another to our destination life (in this world that is) Regards.
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| | Unrecorded Date ar kuwaan xay isu bogeen yahooy meha falaadka ka daaya xaba islama haysaane.
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| | Unrecorded Date hebel sxb falaadkaan kuwaan qalinka iyo buuga aanba beeso uugu fadhiyinee day.midakale hashaan caroweelo ah maahan miyaa midii kutagtay ala ha uraxmee ODAYBIIQE ar qabdha!!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaams all. Brother Nur, I admire your depth of knowledge abouth Islam, and I have learned a lot from your postings elsewhere at this forums. To come back to the issue of whether we, in the disapora will be going back to Somalia or not. It is a fact that not all of us will be going back... I say it is a fact based on 'relocation' trends of other immigrants. To my knowledge, there isn't any group of nationality who once they left their original country (whether it is because of war or fear of presecution) have then returned enmasse. There is a host of reasons for this. Those among us who entertain the idea of returning to Somalia are in a "wait & see" mode!!!! Everyone speaks of going back to Somalia when things are better, but the bigger question is: who is going to make things better?? if everybody who has the skill and knowledge needed for change is waiting to go back until things get better!!!! It is like a vicious circle: people left because things were bad, people will go back when things get better; things don't get better because the people (with skills and experience)won't go back beacuse things are not better!!!! The question that we honestly need to ask ourselves is: Are we willing to sacrfice for the benefit of the next generation, by going back to rebuild our country. If that committment to sacrifice is not there. Then, the next best thing is to focus on the best way we can ensure to have healthy communities in the diaspora, which is free of moral corruption and western vices.
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| | Unrecorded Date xaan ka aqaan qandho gafuur dheer ha jiidee.
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali; > It is like a vicious circle: people left because things were bad, people will go back when things get better; things don't get better because the people (with skills and experience)won't go back beacuse things are not better!!!! < I hear you ! Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but Nobody wants to die,,,,
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| | Unrecorded Date Salaamu calaykum PaPa thanks for the topic. I will only add my opinion from a very personal perpective. I was raised in the West. Went to private American schools. And thanks to Allah am well-adjusted Muslim and Somali TODAY. I also have to thank my parents who were smart enough to know that I was different and would always remain different unless they educated the school. My dad was part of the school board. My mother an active member of the PTA. They had a say on the curriculum. Always involved in activities. And every moment preached the beauty of Islam and our culture. I remember feeling mortified when I was around 13 when my mother would announce to everyone that a respectful Muslim and Somali girl had to marry a virgin. And I knew all my peers talked about was sex and the pill. But guess what? I was teased for about a week and one day stated YES I am a virgin and shall remain so until I marry. They left me alone. Nowadays our kids have to deal with guns. Drugs (never saw drugs in my entire life) and pre-marital sex being glorified. Teenage moms. Many now in our community. And most Somalis aren't even aware of what their kids are being taught. Sex education and the introduction of homosexuality as a normal lifestyle. And let us not forget Santa and Halloween and Easter. For me being a Muslim means living daily and constantly a Muslim life. I think I can manage raising my kids in a western world while they go to public schools. But the best schools are Islamic schools. May Allah help us and guide us all at all times. Amin. Peace
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| | Unrecorded Date Hi folks!. Nur, the issue you added to the debate is relevant to us all and each one of us thinks about it in one way or another. Xaali gave a good analysis to why the project of going back is not feasable at the moment. However i would like to add that by discussing the best way, we Somali communities, can be a succussfull thriving community in the diaspora, also adresses the issue of how we can help our country and people back there. If we make use of and take advantage of the oppurtunities we have here, analyse the experiences of other nations and people and do well here as a community, we can help our country a great deal in many ways. On the other hand if we are a bunch of losers and cheaters in every country who are still as much ignorants as when they came, then we won't do any good to our country and people even if we go back enmasse. So the issue, albeit indirectly, was adressed.
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| | Unrecorded Date Asalama Caleykum To: Sis Cajabo what you will say these words from Muslim Sister, Calling Islamic school second grade? I should send my kids to"Muslim schools"? NO! NO!? Cajabo May Allaah keep you strong Iiman, we miss you for your outstanding defending Islam Daily. Your's Hawa
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| | Unrecorded Date Cajaba- Enjoyed reading your personal story- Thanks for sharing it with me- it seems that we share backgrounds! I was born and grew up in the west- lived all over the place- the middle east and Europe. I was never taught in Muslim schools- I attended all-girl schools- not for religious reasons- boarding schools tend to be segregated. I turned out fine despite all the "non-islamic" schooling I had. In my opinion- and back to the original discussion- it was because my parents never made me forget who I was and where I was from. A Muslim Somali- in that order. I don't know about the people PaPa is refering to- these "suburbia-dwelling westernized families." The families I know- who live in suburbia- have lived in suburbia for as far back as I can remember- They have children that turned out beautifully- obedient, hard-working and consciencious. The place one lives at does not determine who one becomes. So PaPa- either clarify the sample your premise is based on- or refrain from refering to this "mysterious" suburbia-dwelling, culture-neglecting, somali! Because as far as I am know, within the Somali community, there is no such thing- and you are perpetuating a MYTH!
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| | Unrecorded Date Cajabo, >But the best schools are Islamic schools. There is always an exception as to how kids will turn out in both perspectives(those who went to public schools and those who went to Muslim schools). However, I’m curious to know how you came to the conclusion that(the best schools are Islamic schools.), since you said you never attended it? >May Allah help us and guide us all at all times. Amin. Aamiin.
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| | Unrecorded Date Carawelo, >The place one lives at does not determine who one becomes< I did not say or infer that place dictates the individuals orientation in life. >! as far as I am know, within the Somali community, there is no such thing- and you are perpetuating a MYTH!< I would like to believe that we are all great role models,,but that would be delusive,,,a greater MYTH. It was not my intention to paint all the Somalis in suburbia with the same brush ! The scenerio illustrated above is not in any shape or form representative of all somali households in suburbia. Our social-economic backgrounds vary, and with this variations there are some habits (which are alien) that seem to be encouraged, while the religious values are simply over-looked. The situation that I depict above clearly illustrates this dichotomy. The discourse is simply this,,,,, Are there cases of religious or cultural alienation in suburbia ,,to my Knowledge Yes. Is this trend confined to suburbs No. My point was to illustrate the contradictions in suburbanite values. Are these the norms, or are they a deviation form the norm ? ? ? ?
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| | Unrecorded Date WARSAME: let me point out "in the heat of the discussion" check out your word-choosing...
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| | Unrecorded Date Spectator, first of all i have no idea which "word-choosing" you are referring to. But why don't you let us share YOUR OWN WORDS?. Isn't it comfortable to "point out" other peoples "words" when, obviously, you yourself don't have much to contribute?!. Let me "point out" something to you in my turn. The words each one of us choose when discussing in this forums will in one way or another, for some reason or another, please/not please somebody. I strongly recommend you to reserve those father-like "words of yours" to your own kids (if you have some)!.
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa. Thanks for your insights. You said in your last entry "I did not say or infer that place dictates the individuals orientation in life." I Agree with you that you didn't say that. However, you pointed out how people try to adjust to the norms of their surroundings and in the process get derrailed from their own. TRUE. In my case, when I came to this country, A smile was a valuable thing that meant you truly smile at people when you mean it at heart. Now I fake the smile all the way to the office and back from it. I comment on things to be great when in fact they aren't. I picked up a lot of habits subconciuosly from people I deal with daily in the work or at the college. "Are there cases of religious or cultural alienation in suburbia ,,to my Knowledge Yes." Yes I would say so too. too many of them to count. But to realize them, you have to be a practicing muslim person. How else can one feel the pressure if he/she doesn't act different?. "Is this trend confined to suburbs No." I agree with this one too. There is something called "peer pressure" everywhere you deal with people. Muslim adults have proplems performing truly their religion and not irritating their co-workers , classmates et cetera. "We have to explain what we do to satisfy onlookers". These things happen everyday. I have to constantly explain everything I do to my christian peers. Even if they don't ask you can read the questions from their gaze at you. It can be a lot of pressure to many somalis and could cause them to give up easily what they are doing to please their work-mates, neighbours, classmates and so on. the pressure is there. "Are these the norms, or are they a deviation form the norm ? ? ? ? ". We will keep adjusting to the norms of our host countries untill may be we don't behave like somalis anymore. except those who want to keep their heads up and differentiate what is udjustable and normal and what is not. It is called "culture shock". Some of us will be completely swept by the change and some of us will always be different. I don't know how long many of us will hold out against the cultural tidal waves we are immersed. I am totally a different person than I was when I came here. And I hope the changes will be minimal. BUON VOYAGE. Raalli ahaada this was my two cents.
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| | Unrecorded Date Sister Xaali; Thank you very much for the sweet compliment, we all learn from each other in one way or another. Dear Xaali, I understand the vicious cycle you have eloquently described, I accept that we have for a while revolved in that loop, but I am now convinced that the circle has been broken! There is a weight of evidence to support that statement, I have seen our youth (people of talent, skills and energy) returning back to Somalia, I personally can account for 14 friends of mine who have returned to Somalia, in a symmetrically distributed form, all over the country. Some of them have established businesses, which I may add that is booming, some of them have joined the local governance administrations, some of them have established educational institutions, and one particular friend of mine is doing research and voluntary work in Somalia. There are also three friends of mine who are returning to Somalia later this year. Dear Xaali I also accept based on ‘relocation trends’ of other immigrants that all Diaspora may not return back, on the other hand if we base that conclusion on the unique Somali relocation trends of ‘reer guuraanimo’ one might conclude that in time the majority of Somali Diaspora might go back to Somalia. Of course we have to make every effort to cater for the needs of our communities in Diaspora, to preserve their cultural identity and to fight for their social and political needs. There will be different approaches favored by different sections of our communities to how to achieve those objectives, I personally would not subscribe a one right way approach, and it will depend on time, environment, and composition among other things. However we all know that the pre-requisite for any meaningful achievement is the unity of purpose, enlightenment, self believe, sincerity about issues and objectivity about it. Dear Xaali, we can see a two-way need floating from the ‘cycle’ itself, our country needs us as we need our country, for me I am convinced that I need my country more that it needs me (for the reasons I have given in my earlier post). Regards.
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| | Unrecorded Date I guess everyone is waitting for the main course,, I got some bad news the someone forgot to take the baris out of the oven..
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa, ari bari laga raysay iyo bariis caana leh. @L@L Forgot about bariis suugo leh, hadda waxaa la cunaa uncle bens rice ama fried rice with chicken wings
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa, What bariis? Are you talking about the one we served last nite to the guest?
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| | Unrecorded Date to warsame, excuse me if i have not used a reference when i said my father-like words. please check this out!! your posting on the apr. 11..you said and i quote "...on the hand, if we are bunch of losers and cheaters in every country who are still as much ignorants as when they came..." you are obviuously intelligent man so..to my understanding, just for "your word-choosing" you painted a picture that we (somalis leave their country ignorants) i disagree ! may be ignorant about those cultures that we immigrate to but not IGNORANTs. as far as me contributing, i have no strong opinions about this topic..i am a college kid....yet i thought it was worthwhile to read what you (married with jobs) discussed....by the way, if you are so worked up about short remark, take a hike!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Spectator, sorry mate if i was a bit stiff about your remark. And it helps to see things better now, when you wrote which point of my posting, your remark refered to. It's unfortunate that while generalization is a vice, we are sometimes compelled to use it to show the pattern flow of events. I agree with you that while we were naturally ignorants about the cultures we immigrated to, we weren't ALL "ignorants" on the educational level when we left our country. And certainely i wasn't refering to ALL Somalis. But on the other hand i think you would agree with me that that's true about the majority of us (i would even say the vast majority of us). It wasn't entirely our fault considering that the institutions of education has started relatively only a short period ago in our country and the tribal, corrupt, mismanaging and in-effecient systems of governance we had since independence, and it's impact on education. I only wanted to say let's try to change the situation, because here, we have an oppotunity we didn't have back home. Wish you success with your studies!
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