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     | Unrecorded Date What do you think about this article? Please post your comments. http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_sf3364.html
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| | Unrecorded Date arooy...... Afrika shuqu kuma lihinee dhoolkeenaa noo daran. Somalia nabed ilahey hana siiyo.
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| | Unrecorded Date This might come as a Shock to you but Somalia is in Africa.
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| | Unrecorded Date to anonymous yow didn't you ever study history somali is in afric and nothing you say is gonna change that alright?and for one thing we are proud to be africans. enough said! peace!
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| | Unrecorded Date Why is everyone OBSESSED..with da word..TROUBLE... Leave it alone mates.....It is a TRADEMARK......CAPISHE.....LOL
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| | Unrecorded Date To the original Anon- You might be relating poetry to the illiterate- note the responses thus far. Enough to make one cry. The article is depressing and insulting. I find the general thesis unbearable. The author seems to say that the problems in Africa are inherently african- translate: the "dumb africans can't seem to get it right" The writer takes asia as an example of a continent colonized that managed to survive. It takes Ireland as a country led by "tribalism" that also managed to get their act together. It states that there were dictators elsewhere and these countries made it to enlightenment. But what the author fails to point out is that colonialism treated asia differently. They built the infra-structure and maintained existing socio-systems. In africa- they destoryed what little there was and provided minimal infrastructure (did you know that there are african neighbors that do not have railways linking them?????) As for tribalism- what he is calling "tribalism" in Ireland- is "clan" and last I checked the history books- the Irish aren't even in control of their own destiny and the scots (the other great clans)- aren't they under the english???? The solution to africa's problems the author says is to learn to "trust each other"????!!! The solution to Africa's problem is- TO KICK ALL NON-AFRICANS OUT OF AFRICA. and to get them out of our collective lives. The white man has been wreaking havoc on us since the day he found his way to the continent. Damn Vasco De Gamo! That is all for today.
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| | Unrecorded Date lol@@Careweelo,I agree with you the article was simplistic in defining Africa's problems. However, there is an element of truth in what the author wrote about our inabilities to govern our affairs. 40 years of African rule, what do we have to show for except chronic poverty, rampant corruption and disease. It is the greed of the African "leader" that enables the white man. No amount of blame of what the white man did can absolve the negligent behaviour of those trusted with public service. What we need in Africa are indegenoues solutions that are cognizant of the culture and needs of the most vulnerable groups of the population. Africa needs to reverse its prorities and stop glorifying everything western!!! Africa is guilty of aspiring to modernize while skipping the process of progress. There are no short cuts to improving one's live, one has to go through a process of learning, planning, implementing and maintaining. There has to be a commitment and recognition that a country belongs to a nation, and not a tribe. Accountability has to become an entrenched value that everyone adheres to. If you and I don't care about our home, do you expect a stranger to care??
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo Put down the Khat, take a deep breath and think!!! If it were white people whomanipulated Africans all this time then we could conclude that Africans are dumb for allowing themselves to be manipulated. If it is African leadership that is to blame then we could conclude that the Africans are dumb because they allow their leadership to manipulate them. Kicking the white people out, or the Asians or whoever only leads to a gold flow which is not what Africans need. Also, if you study Africa there were lots of tribal wars going on there long before the white guys showed up. Africa never had a "Golden Age". Now I'm not really saying Africans are Dumb. For a whole host of socio-economic reasons (to include, but not solely colonialism) Africa has not progressed very much politically or economically. Remember people pretty much get the kind of government they deserve - witness the US - we got stuck with a Clinton administration and it's our own damn fault. Africans need to start holding their leaders accountable, stop allowing themselves to be manipulated, and start generating political and economic systems that are not designed to allow the political elite to rip off everyone. Fundamentally Xaali is right on the money. But saying white people don't belong in Africa is like saying black people don't belong in America. They're all criminals and rapists and those who aren't are just living off the social security system - and it just ain't so, brother. It just ain't so.
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| | Unrecorded Date I only read the Economist Magazine when my blood pressure is kinda Low ! The content of that article, at least the core message is Racist,dehumanizing and degrading, but again consider the source ! To claim that the Africans cant Manage anything is Preposterous. To say that Africans were in a mess long before Europeans came is Ridiculous. These claims are nothing more than an attempt by some racist, Eurocentric analyst to "White Wash" history. To understand the Political and economical Crisis that has plagued the African continent it isis imperative that we have to examine it from historical perspective. We can not do justice to a topic of this magnitude in a forums like this, due to time and space constrains. In most eurocentric literature they tend to refer to "Africa" as if its one country inhabited by a Monomorphic society. The economist's view is that the problems affecting Africa are simply due to corruption and incompetence. The Wars in Africa are classified as "Tribal" while the Wars and conflicts in Europe are seen as Ideological ! This view is simplistic and racist. The most brutal tribal wars in the history of human civilization were in Europe ! they were World War 1 and two. The crisis facing contemporary African countries are complex, a detailed case by case study is needed in order to understand the internal dynamics of the issues facing each country. While the dynamics of each case differ the common denominator in all of the conflicts are structural in nature. They stem from a set of structural institutions imported and imposed on the continent by the European masters. This Institutions namely the State, with all its coercive apparatus, such as the Judiciary, Police force, were all imposed on the natives in each country. They were designed for a one purpose only, which was to legalise the looting and the pillage of the colonized countries. The state was used as a tool for economic exploitation and political repression. The Natives were forced to work in plantations and also required to pay taxes which were used to maintain the white Settlements. The natives who never identified with this alien institutions. They started to sabotage it as a result of their alienation. The state was only concerned with Law and order and never with the social well being of the Natives. This led to the emergence of a more ethnic oriented society since the natives had to rely on their ethnic groups for survival. The other structural deficiency that has become a great source of conflict in contemporary African countries was the artificial boundaries which were created by the Europeans. Various ethnic groups which were homogeneous such as the Somalis were divided into different countries namely the Ogaden, NFD (Kenya), Djibouti, Somaliland, Somalia. Therefore, if the state in most African countries has failed to serve its citizens its due to its flawed structure, not because Africans are incompetent. When African countries gained independence the state structure was not altered mainly because it benefitted the elites who came to power. They used it in the same manner that the Europeans used it. As a tool for economic exploitation and economic repression. Soon after India's Independence, Someone asked Mahatma Ghandi " How long would it take for India to become developed Nation like England ? He said " If a country the size of England colonized more than half the World in order to get to where it is, how many planets would India need to colonize "
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| | Unrecorded Date First things first- PaPa- Love your thinking. You have really seen through the guise- it is racist and insulting. Second, Xaali- sister- the 40 years of rule you are refering to is the 40 miserable years following the meddling of the white man! The moron showed up- shackeled the people- brought misery. Then when he leeft, he left his system in place- run by his puppets and his murderers. All the dictators and all the military leadrship we have had- have been the western cronies who sold their souls to the white man- long time ago. Mad Mac- first of all- I am a sister- not a brother. Second, you said- Africa never had its "golden age"- Based on whose definition? If you are speaking of plagues, mass murders, enslavement of mankind and extermination of nations- then yes! You are right- we never had the kind of "golden age" your forefathers enjoyed! But if you are refering to kingdoms and nations that lived in harmony with nature- then check out your local library on books or visit the museums for archeological finds- because we had kingdoms centuries before your forefathers figured out the need for daily cleansing! And your solution to the african "problems"- was to say that we need political and economic systems that are designed to protect the people against their leadership. Following the western definition of political systems is where, in my opinion, all the troubles started. How can one impose a system- prefected for another? The European ideologies are not ours. The european systems of government are not ours. The chaos you see in Africa is due to these systems. I speak of capitalism, marxism, democracy- whatever title you would like to use. Africa will succeed if it is left WELL ENOUGH ALONE. Butt out. stay out. Do not come in the form of missionaries. Do not come in the form of the IMF. Do not come in the form NGO's. Do not come in the form of saviours. LEAVE US ALONE. Let us kill each other. Let us starve ourselve. Only then, through pain and tears, will we forge our societies. Your people had the chance to do that. You had you wars, and your plagues and your famines and your horrors. No one meddled or judged. Result- systems that work for you and societies that are functioning. Africa needs the same. Do you know who I hate more than anything else- a do-good-guilty-white-man! And FYI- Clinton is the smartest president this country has ever had- and I voted for the guy- TWICE!
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa Not much to disagree with. Most of your points a right on the money. I would argue that WW II, while certainly a struggle over the control of resources (like all wars are) was also more than that. The Fascist regime of Nazi Germany was brutal on a scale heretofore never seen. In Eastern Europe the Nazis deliberately killed (in the space of about 2 years) 10s of Millions of slavs. They intended to simply kill them all and repopulate those areas with Germans. So I would call WW II epic. State structures in Africa ARE FLAWED. But it is up to Africans to fix them. The colonial legacy is 40-50 years old. It's time to stop blaming colonialism and start building appropriate state structures. Sitting back and saying (as Africans are very much inclined to do) that it's someone elses fault is not going to fix squat. Caraweelo Sorry about the Abowe thing. My bad. Now, on to your hoplessly flawed point of view. First of all what constitutes an "African." How bout white people who were born there? How 'bout people who emigrated there? What about tourists. Do you want to kick them out too? What about businessmen who have built businesses there? Do you want to kick them out? Guess we'll kick all the Africans out of America. Hey, if Americans can't live in Africa then Africans can't live in America. The world is completely interdependent now. Let's take a look at a country that decided it wanted total self-sufficiency and lets no one in and minimizes exchanges with the outside world. North Korea. Well, it's worked so well for them. The solution to Africas problems is not to be more isolationist, it's to establish political structures that can interact with the rest of the world and which do not bleed their own people white. You hate do-good-guilty-white men and you voted for Clinton. Hello?? Anybody home?? He's the King of the do good guilty white men. Who the hell do you think was responsible for me fighting in Somalia in the first place? Best president we ever had? You've got to be kidding. Ever hear of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan? I could go on, but for some inexplicable reason women love the guy. He's been trying to get me killed ever since he got into office. Oh yeah, you hate do-good-guilty-white men? Well look no further. You've got someone you can hate right here on the forumss and I'm going back to Somalia so you can hate me some more there.
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| | Unrecorded Date to y'all what are yous writing?a book? get a life no one is just gonna sit there and read all that nonsense.....capiche! only one advise from me ......,,,,save your time //// ciao!
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| | Unrecorded Date Lol...Shangaani. dat was a BOMB TO: Feminist and da rest What aboutta da AIDS and AFRICA, Slogan? can any of ya tell me some about it...ya know, like how we can stop it? What about lowering da prize of radios with SW( short wave) radio frequency? so peoples in Sub Sahara Africa can get some hints on how they can do save sexs with out condoms ya know da deal so get da freak on, lemme hear ya side. To: Caroweelo a.k.a Feminist Walaal wax badan ayaan aqriyey qoraaladaada garanse maayo in aad leedahay Site aan hore u arkay, Waan layaaba caqligaada iyo aqoonta aad sheeganayso baaxada u dhexeysa koleyba ku garanmaayo balse way fiicnaan lahayd in aan si live ah uga wada doodnaa arimaha ku saabsan xuquuqda haweenka iyo waliba tan qoyska. Hadaba hadal iyo dhamaantii waxaan kusoo xasuusin uun in Somalidu tahay MALE DOMINATED SOCIETY waxbana aadan ka ahayn, meesha aad bulshada kaga jirtid uun wax ka qabso wixii kale waxaan u arkaa role conflict. CiiseRooti
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| | Unrecorded Date In my humble opinion, the reason there is so much trouble in Africa is because of ignorance. Unfortunately, most africans lack education. I, for one, am tired of blaming colonialism for our shortcomings. It is time we take responsibility for our actions. It seems every where in Africa there is turmoil. Please read about the war between Eritrea and Ethipia, and the situation in Sierra Leone. Please feel free to comment, I do value your comments, but for once stop blaming colonialism. http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_international.html,http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_international.html}
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| | Unrecorded Date The White Man is acting like the rapist who accussed his victim of over reacting. Mad Mac >>The colonial legacy is 40-50 years old. It's time to stop blaming colonialism and start building appropriate state structures<< How can they build "appropriate structures" when the I.M.F and the World Bank are the ones who are dictating to the African countries what is "appropriate" and what is in their best interest ? Africa and the rest of the so called "Third World" have tried to restructure their lives but guess what ! when they elect governments that are not acceptable (to the west) they are often undermined by countries such as the United Snakes which have actively sought their downfall. Algeria is in a mess, over 100,000 thousand have died, mostly innocent civilians, their only crime was they elected an Islamic government. Which was overthrown by the military (western stooges). You dont hear much about Algeria, No peace keeping, No sanctions, Nothing. They are suffering under the watchful eye of the United Nations. How can you expect any meaningful change when the will of the people has been frustrated over and over again by the Western Hypocrates. They are instructed to "adapt" western style democracy (hypocracy), they are forced to liberalise and allow more western corporations into their countries. To eliminated trade barriers. >>." How bout white people who were born there? How 'bout people who emigrated there?<< You can not equate white in Africa with the blacks in America or Europe. The blacks in America built America ! 300 years of slavery !!! I dont hear any talks about reparations for slavery or colonisation ! The whites in Africa were not forced or enslaved, they went to Africa with a bible on one hand and a Gun on the other hand. They stole the land and gave the black man the bible in return. Got to go ! George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan: What do they all have in Common ? ? They all enjoyed the privilages that comes with being White. I will leave you with this "When I turn on the Radio, when I hear a black Man has been lynched in America, I say we have been lied to, Hitler is Not dead." Frantz Fanon: Black Skin White Mask. To which I may add, When I hear that an Innocent black Man has been Shot 40 times in New York city, and the Cops who executed him have been found Not guilty, I say to myself, We have been lied to, Hitler is Not dead. /
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| | Unrecorded Date Hi folks! Caraweelo, i am amazed about this statement of yours: "Let us kill each other. Let us starve ourselve. Only then, through pain and tears, will we forge our societies". How considerate of you to your fellow africans who are subjected daily to the worst atrocities when you are protected from it all in america and are a naturalized american. By the way i think Mr. Aideed would love you for this!. No body understood him but he was making exactly that point all along! Have you ever thought what the brutalized victims in Africa themselves think about those who are coming abroad to help them!!. I believe that we have one of our major problems in a nutshell; We simply don't care about each other!! "Do you know who I hate more than anything else- a do-good-guilty-white-man!". Papa, a couple of days ago i've read a beautifull article you wrote about how we, Somalis, are the cause of our own destruction. Is this one here of yours kind of tribal instinct of "let's close our ranks because we have OUTSIDERS around, but when they go we can kill each other in piece?! I've read the article last friday. There is no reason to assume that they are racists or wrote the article in a bad faith. Africa IS in trouble and we have the somali saying : Nin buka boqol u tali. They have put forward -in my view- reasonable, balanced anylysis but they could be wrong as well. The point is; this hysteria and whiteman-bashing would never get us nowhere. It's us and our leaders who are behind our state-of- affairs to day. No justifications will take this fact away. Anon. i agree with you with the reason you put forward. I've always held the view that ignorance is one of main reasons behind our backwardness and brutality.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac you need a lesson in African History.I will give you a homework.There was a king in Bechuanaland nowdays Botswana who gave help to starving europeans.It may help to do some research instead of just opening your big mouth.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad Mac my dear friend.As you say AFRICA has never had a golden age.Iam not surpised by your historical and geographial ignorance.The majority of Americans does not know where Benin is.To come back to the point Africa of course hade a golden age-Soghai Empire,Mwanamutapa Empire,Buganda Empire to mention a few.The reason these empires could not continue to flourish is obvious.Greedy europeans and arabs who at that time were starving invaded these empires looted and stole their riches and still doing through neo-colonialism.I do not commend a looter,a thief, a rapist but i commend a honest community which gets it's riches through honest means.The Economist reporter is part and parcel of these groups of thieves who always find amusement in putting Africa down.It took Europe and USA more than four centuries of looting and exploitations through slavery and colonialism to reach where they are to today.Last but not least they were killing each other only fifty years ago-World War 2.Africa needs more time to develop and Iam sure we will regardless of all the difficulties.
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| | Unrecorded Date Show me in the history of african violence a chapter inwhich a whiteman doesn't have his hand in it?. Not only in Africa but in Latin America too?. Who watches Coldwar Cnn Special when he/she can?. WarsameX, I think you won't mind an extremist in your civilized world won't you?. I just threw this comment and won't be back so no heartburn.
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| | Unrecorded Date Proud African, Papa, Bashir You're all high. Read what you just wrote. All thr problems of Africa are the fault of whites. Before the arrival of white people Africans all just sat around and sang Kumbaya. Right. Proud African My knowledge of World Geography, including Aficas, is superb. I know exactly where Benin is. When I was in Nairobi last September on the other hand, not one of the guys I was with (all Somalis) could tell me where the Central African Repbulic was, let alone the political situation there. So give it a rest. How were the aforementioned empires established, at the point of a spear, that's how. Just like every other empire. What do you think African empires and leaders are special? You think they don't operate the way they do in the rest of the world? Papa, if you drive the whites out of Africa you will create a gold flow - they will take their money, pack their •••• and leave. Africa will not be richer for it. Should the IMF and World Bank stop loaning Africa money - because that's what you're advocating here. They will not loan money without attaching strings. If they don't loan money then the GREAT BENEVOLENT LEADERS of the continent will take private loans. Now what do you think they're doing with this money? Do you think they're investing that money in the country? If Africa cuts itself off from "The White Man" then it will spiral down even faster than it already is. It can follow North Korea in the great march toward death and poverty. There are no easy solutions. Africas problems are complex and multi-faceted. Simply saying it's the fault of the white man is ludicrous. If Africa was so fucking great before the white man then why didn't they kick some european ass when the Europeans showed up - you know, in Shaka Zulu fashion? Maybe their leaders fell a little short? I don't know, I don't want to suggest anything that might make you guys uncomfortable here. I'm just throwing it out there. No metter how you slice the pie Africans must take responsibility for developing their economies and generating social structures that serve their people. Or I guess they can sit back and whine about how exploited they've been while they get poorer and poorer. Because it's a dog eat dog world out there and that ain't gonna change.
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| | Unrecorded Date Mad MAC "If Africa was so fucking great before the white man then why didn't they kick some european ass when the Europeans showed up". This shows you are very biased in your history learning. Listen, when whites came to somalia they promised to be freinds with the locals and will trade fairly with them. That they will invest the country and behave just like they were honest traders who wanted a fair deal with the locals. Sooner, they started learning the tribes in the country and how they relate to each other. They soon started bitting tribe against another and arming one group against the other. This was before the 1900 hundreds. They soon employed hypocrats and made money offers to them. They hired a police force in all somali regions to enforce their law on the locals. Talk about opening missionary schools to convert the locals. In Berbera, mogadisho, Baldweyn were all the bread basket of christian missionaries. They were not successful though. Somalis were always tough to convert. Are you with me, They would not give us freedom unless the germans kicked your white knuckles for good. Because after the war, the western countries couldn't afford to deal with struggling nations anyway so they decided to leave africa alone. Before they left, they committed the biggest crime in HISTORY from AFRICANS. THAT IS GIVING LAND TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T OWN IT SO THAT IN THE FUTURE AFRICA WILL STILL WAGE WARS ON ITSELF FOR A PORTION OF BARREN LAND. You know what is happening in Ethiopia and Eritrea?. Somalia between ethopia?. Central african countries?. There is no country in africa that doesn't have animosity to its neighbouring country and it was planted by a whiteman. This is not me saying that I hate white people for that but to give everyone his share of history making. IMF is another tool used to undermine the needs of the poor countries. For example, Instead of demanding that governments change their policies towards their people so that they get credit for it, they are encouraged to keep the money in private accounts and later when the interest is in maniflod only the poor people will have to pay even after the borrowers used the money for their ownslef. It is recent that IMF pretended understood the proplem and is trying to make changes which is fake anyway. Listen, whiteman thought of his life and wants to live on the blood of others. Do you know what is going on in ZAMBIA?. Forgive me if I sound antiwhite. Actually I am just using the term white instead of western man.
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| | Unrecorded Date Bashir True enough the colonial empires were creations of manipulation. But postulating that the IMF is designed to maintain the status quo is a reach. In fact the situation with the IMF and World Bank is as much the fault (or probably more) of African leadership as anyone else. Which now leads me back to square one. Caraweelo recommends throwing out all white people. Aside from the morale question involved here, my question is what then? Do you stop taking IMF loans? Do you stop taking loans from the World Bank? If not from the West where will you get your capital for economic development? You see tha't smy whole point. Everyone's blaming "The White Man" but besides "Let's throw 'em out" I haven't heard a single recommendation on how Africa in general and Somlia in particular is suppose to rebuild it's institutions and economy.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC Good points here man, this is the problem with Africa. There are willing to generate conspiracy stories to justify the sorry situation in the continent. You the West in my opinion majured enough to take the Bull by the Horns whereas Africa is still in Toddler stage not willing to grow-up and stare at our own generated distructive state. I am also against the idea of sweeping problems under the carpet when non-Somali joins the discussion. What is there to hide? African problems is out there in the Open? whatever MAD MAC says is one man's opinion take it or leave - it's your choice but let him be free to discuss his views may be this is a trait missing in Africa.
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC it is true you can't judge a book by it's cover.Following your answers in this discussion,I have come to surprising conclusion.Mad Mac you don't know a thing about Africa.You said that you met somalis who did not know Central Africa republic,it says a lot about you.The friends who you associated with are just morons like you.I challenge you that you have no knowledge of what is going in AFRICA.Let's talk about the economical and social effectes slavery and colonialism hade in the underdevelopment of AFRICA.I sure you will avoid talking about what your grandparents stole which is what you are eating now.A THIEF WILL ALWAYS PROTECT A THIEF.WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ZIMBABWE IS A CLEAR MESSAGE.TIME IS UP MOOCHERS AND THEIR FREELOADING SIBLINGS.
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| | Unrecorded Date If you are interested in an honest and educated analysis of the crisis in Africa check this out, ignore the hate litrature of the economist. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_760000/760924.stm
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| | Unrecorded Date Papa, muchos gracias!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Jomo Kenyatta said: The white man came to Africa, gave us a bible and asked us to close our eyes and pray with him. When we opened our eyes we had the bible and he had the land.
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 02:23 am Observer You will notice again that in both your diatribe and those following you again there was not a single suggesstion of what should be done - beyond perhaps the refrain "kick out the white man." Now let's take the situation in Zimbabwe for example. Let's assume the whites all leave. They will take their money and move somewhere else - this is called a gold flow and generally speaking has a negative affect on an economy. Second piece, no one will invest there for fear of losing their investment. So you had better hope that the remaining people in Zimbabwe have some money to invest or there will be no investment - translation economic stagnation. The world does not need Zimbabwe but Zimbabwe needs the world. As for my grandfathers my paternalistic grandfather was a baker, raised a family of 6, and had very little money. It was a lower middle class family that bought it's first home when my grandfather was in his 40s. My maternalistic grandfather was born in Ireland, left there when he was three, and was a common laborer all his life. He never owned his own home or any property. He was in debt when he died - debts which my family covered. Maybe someone was making a lot of money off of Africa but it wasn't my family. Papa I will check out the article right now.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 09:56 pm Xoogsade Oh and I just love that quote from Kenyatta. May be a valid observation - but Kenyatta and Moi have stolen everything that wasn't nailed down in their two tenors as president.
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| | Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 01:09 am mad did i just read that "the world does not need zimbabwe zimbabwe needs the world" ...so, the "world" is synonynm with white... europeans.. man, you amaze me.......these people are simply getting their land back.... and please leave kenyatta alone for he was a great man... anyone who stands for Africa is being accused of something....just leave him alone dummy...
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 05:38 am Analyzer You know I've talked with a lot of Kenyans and they all think he was a thief - just like Moi. But I confess I didn't know him personally. Course I didn't know Siad Barre personally either. The "World" is not a synonym for white....europeans. The "world" is all of the world. These people are not simply getting their land back. Most of the White Farmers there were born in Zimbabwe. The Zimbabwean courts (run by blacks) have asserted the famers are theirs. If you give in to mob violence when you agree with the mob that is the road to hell. As I said before, this kind of action can only lead to unrest, violence and destruction. Then people who have money in Zimbabwe take their cash and leave. People who have money and live outside of Zimbabwe invest nothing there. So ultimately the people who occupied the farms end up poorer than when they started. Analyzer you just ain't analyzing the problem. Let's take a look at South Afica. For obvious reasons most of the whites there have the advantage of a quality education. They also own much of the property. What would have happened if Mandela, when he became president, had decided to "give it all back to the black man"? I'll tell you what would have happened. First, there would have been a bloodbath. Those with a lick of sense who could leave would - and they'd take their money with them. The industry that right now makes South Africa the country with the most economic potential south of the Sahara would be a ruin. No one would invest there. Instead of having the potential for superb economic growth as it does now, it would be a disaster area. Don't get me wrong, the Black majority suffered greatly at the hands of the Afrikaners for a long time. And the economic disparity is incredible. But Black South Africa can not overcome that disparity through violence. The secret is to now focus on bringing the black population up to the level that the whites are living at. It's not a zero sum game - growth is the key and to date the South African leadership has recognized that. It will, of course, take a long time - at least a century. But it can be done. The other solutions are really not solutions at all - just the road to hell.
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| | Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 09:34 pm mad mac, what's up with obssesion with that "road to hell" crap?...responsibility and accountability is the deal here...those white settlers could be nice and upright citizens but they acquired, settled and illegally cheated over lands and mines and •••• they made trillions out of ....for instance, the gold mines....minerals and not to mention the diamonds of africa.....and please let me know if you dispute that as the fact....they should not have in the first place....to make some matters fair to them...i think compensations ,,,,higher taxes.....or some sort of deal could be an option...don't preach your ideas to people and please do not validate them by arguing about what the present and the future of african countries might hold if they decide to make social change....especially zimbabwe...you mentioned a very good point about the economic inequality between the afrikaans and the real south africans (black)...i am sure you don't wanna here my strong opinions about these issues...here is a hint "violence..." but that's not what they want... war & money-making to all...
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 09:04 am Analyzer First of all, many white South Aricans have been there for many generations. That pretty much makes them "Real South Africans." They have no other place they would call home. They could relocate, but they would not be going home. They are home. Now, you say that responsibility and accountability is the deal here.......I disagree. I think it is the responsibility of the leadership of South Africa to represent all of its citizens and to do what is in the best interest of the country as a whole. Again, if you tax the wealthy to try and redistribute wealth you and I know what will happen. Much of it will likely be stolen by corrupt government officials (this is a common theme in the world) and much of it will be wasted by inefficient government machinery which is notoriously sloppy in working with State money (Another common world theme). What South Africa needs to do is keep a lid on the violence - the country needs stability - educate its black population to give it equal footing in the labor market, and let the private sector go to work generating wealth. Your opnion, "violence" is, of course, no solution at all. It will just lead to the ruin of an economy that has great potential. No one will benefit (except those who have refined the skills of praying off of dying states - like Osman Hassan Ali for example). And since White South Africa is armed to the teeth and the population well trained in violence there'll be plenty of death to go around.
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 01:07 am mad mac, here we go again....macky!! always going with rightousness to manipulate the real truth behind the issues and the problems of the continent....why do someone has to settle for the idea "that stuff happened and let's move on" when they have obviously been colonized, looted from their resources and infringed in every possible human way.....i have a personal issues with the afrikaans .....couple of months ago, i met this white south african chick that actually insulted me just for being black...what angered me the most wasn't only her ignorance but her age too...she was very young....anyway, people with such mentalities should not tolerated given a chance at all....that is all i am saying ...i could care less about south africa or any other country....we have our own deals jacked up....
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 02:48 am OK - I agree. Hope you lit into the bitch. I can't stand that "I'm better than you..." crap either. But on a larger level there are lots of Afrikaners who are perfectly decent people. It's a mistake to tar everyone (no matter background) with the same brush. You asked "Why does someone have to settle for the idea 'that stuff happened and let's move on' when they have obviously been colonized, looted from their resources and infringed in every possible human way." I'll tell you why. Because there's no choice. As I said before you can not undo history. Have you looked at the latest analysis on Zimbabwe? It looks ugly. The country could be heading for civil war very easily. And the few whites still living there are going to split. Countries (Yugoslavia is another good example) where people obsess on the past aren't focussed on the future. Result: Insecurity, economic decline, violence and destruction. Then they're fucked.
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| | Sunday, July 02, 2000 - 01:48 pm the mad one, you concluded that insecurity, economic decline, violence and destruction will be inevitable....that is a clear sign of your one-eye-shut view of africa's reality....insecurity, poor economy and violence upon blacks went on up until a decade ago both in south africa and the aftermath left torn souls among blacks.....you also want tell me the majority of afrikaners are nice people....hell with you...aren't their actions a concise reflection of themselves?..read the experiences of those who lived as black south africans in the last 30 or so years and extend your sympathies further dummy...i am not saying you should condone the actions of the zimbabwan upheiveled farmers but at least understand the cause that triggered their part of violence... here is a rather strong recollection of how one south african child intrepeted stuff in his autobiography by mark mathabane "...through watching (a western or glaidiator or secret agent ) such movies that i first began to form ideas about the nature of white people. Aside from the police, i rarely saw a white face in the township. And because black people were forbidden to enter the white world without a permit, i naturally saw the movies as one way to get a glimpse of that world: how they functioned from day to day. To me the illusions and the fantasy of the movies were the stark reality of a world i was forbidden to enter. From my experiences with white policemen, i had come to develop a deep-seated fear of white people; seeing the bloody murders and savage beatings and indiscrimate shootings in the movies, that fear was fueled to phopic proportions. i vowed that never would i enter such a world, and thanked the law for making sure i could not do so without a permit. May be i repeatedly told myself, white people have placed these restrictions of movement of black people in the white world because they did not want them to unwittingly wander into an Indian village or into a gladiator arena or into a cowboy shootout, and end up getting killed. ....i was fully convinced that somewhere in the white world, the events depicted in the movies were everyday occurrences..." that's it for your african studies for the nite...
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| | Monday, July 31, 2000 - 12:49 am This is MAD MAC posting as Anonymous due to user authentication problems. Analyzer So you're telling me that if South Africa were to change policies and decide to prosecute whites they held responsible for Apartheid, confiscate white lands and redistribute them this would not result in a blood bath followed by massive exodus of money from a country that needs the capital and technical know-how that some of the whites bring to the table? You're saying that because it is just the consequences are irrelevant? Or are you saying that South Africans don't need the white part of their population? That they don't need their money or know-how? That South Africa can be prosperous despite a civil war, violent upheaval and a devastating gold flow? I'm not sure how you can conclude that since all of the examples I know of indicate that civil war and population disloction breeds poverty. You may argue that Black South Africa lives in poverty now, but a civil war most certainly will not improve their situation.
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| | Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 05:57 am ok mad-neck, push the tint to the north pole and and see if i blink.....black south africa accepted the white man's lashes and peacefully are trying to overcome the effects of long term apartheid just like the black americans did.....while that is a good way to liberate one's self it is not the only way...REASONING with your oppressor is not the only way to get your point across, but STANDING UP to him and commiting suicide is a cool way to get back at him and die with some dignity..huh?
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| | Sunday, August 13, 2000 - 11:32 pm Analyzer Well, it might be a cool way of making your point except for one thing. By the time you've made your point your dead. It seems to me that defeats the purpose. I don't want to be dead by the time I've made my point or I can't enjoy the benefits of making my point? See my point?
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| | Tuesday, August 15, 2000 - 09:46 am mad dog, listen my man...this is not an individual battle as you wrapped it to be.....we are talking about an entire nation (really large one)....if they had resisted oppression with zero tolerance and constant violence....in my opinion, liberation would have come long ago....history proves my point.....just the willingness to sacrifice one's life for what he/she beleives in is all they need...and please don't say the "violence" idea is radical cause is not...remember your own american colonies fought to get their independence against the british empire though it was different era and less cruel, the cause is the same....understand also that i am not dismissing the non-violence approach, but i regard it as the initial option......
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| | Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 01:41 am Analyzer OK, I can see the rational about fighting for freedom or for some other cause. But fighting ain't the same thing as committing suicide. My point on South Africa is it already has a black majority government. The ANC fought a war (not very well, but they fought one) when it was a white government. But now that it has a black government there's no point in seeking out yet more violence. South Africa now needs to explore solutions to improve the lot of its black population, not look for ways to bring its white population down. BTW who keeps hijacking your user name? What's up with that?
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| | Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 09:22 am madman, why do you like to have the final touch on the group essay....you just wanna get the final word....anyway, i will say it for you...again.. "....i can see the ratoinal about fighting for freedom.....'thank you for enlightening me about my baised preconception about this topic'....." dude, i don't know..someone that i might have bombed on my way to be the police of somalinet forums........we are still investigating the incident and can not comment on it at this time....
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| | Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 11:29 pm Analyzer No, no, no. Not final word! I'm trying to keep the conversation going.Hence no final words until we reach consensus or kill each other.
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