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Question: Why wasn't the seats in the American Congress distributed along ethinic lines instead of state lines?

SomaliNet Forum (Archive): General Discusions: Archive (Before Sept. 29, 2000): Question: Why wasn't the seats in the American Congress distributed along ethinic lines instead of state lines?
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Xaali

Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 08:48 am
Inquiring minds want to know, why the seats in US Congress: the American Senate and the House of representatives has not been distributed along ethinic lines? Why hasn't seats beean allocated to Native American; Whites; Blacks, Hispanic; Asian, Middle Eastern and Eskimos?? Why allocate seats to states rather? what is the rationale?

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MAD MAC

Saturday, September 02, 2000 - 09:02 am
This one is easy. When the US consitution was written the States were a collection of independent countries (technically they still are) . Hence the bicameral legislature to accomodate large and small states. For the most part Indians, blacks, woman, etc. did not enjoy suffrage, so it wasn't even a question.

However, now I would maintain that to take this route and allocate seats according to race would be a huge step backwards. And what to do with people who are of mixed race - who would they get to vote for? Who would represent them? With the enormous racial diversity in the country it would be extraordinarily complex. It would also require rewriting the consitution which would require the approval of two thirds of the States to ratify it. This is not going to happen.

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Xaali

Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 10:49 am
Hey Mad Mac, what do u as an "outsider" think of Somalis basing the new parliament along tribal lines instead of regional lines? Which system is hypothetically more effective in insuring cohesiveness for the nation in the long run??

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AgainstWomenReasoning

Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 02:28 pm
Xaali

ya rationale must be suffering a massive breakdown!Why would you want a parliament to base their seats...in somalia...according to tribal line???haven't you been convinced of its effects..from this..idiotic war?What happened to common democratic elections?Candinates with qualifications of merits and..education.I understand you are a woman and therefore...least expected to use a brain that was predisposed for male only.But....really....ya can use your..imaginitive brain atleast?

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Xaali

Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 04:52 pm
Against women reasoning acronym = A.W.R.....male camel hmmmmmmmm, there I used my immaginitive mind!
Address the message not the messenger. No need to get personal with me dude and jump to conclusion that I am stating a preference for either/or! You exhibit typical male behaviour. Aggressive and on the attack because what u read is not to your liking and worse it is by a woman talking to a gaal uuuuuuuu!



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MAD MAC

Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 09:57 pm
Xaali
Well, in the long run I think it's a bad idea. It encourages Somalis to think in terms of clan as political entities. On the other hand, at some point you have to acknowledge reality. To most Somalis clan is important. It has been a political unit for a long time. If Somalis can manage to work these political units in a healthy way (that is, without blowing each others brains out) and it ends the war then why not? My one big hope for this new government, should it succeed, is that it avoids the temptation of history and does not steal from or overegulate it's people. Let's just saying I"m holding my breath on this one. And for all you MAC haters out there, if this new government works then all MAC might do in Somalia is a few aid projecs - that shouldn't bother anyone.

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anonymous.

Sunday, September 03, 2000 - 11:07 pm
days to cry over who talks to whom is over. Xali suit yourself. remember this is america you shouldn't feel restricted. A typical somali woman.

by male.

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Xoogsade

Monday, September 04, 2000 - 09:11 am
Xaali:

AWR... very droll, awrku laakiin ma dhufaanbaa maxaa dumarka la colaysiiyay?

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PaPa

Monday, September 04, 2000 - 06:21 pm
Xaali the U.S system of governance is not really a model that should be used to gauge participatory democracy. But to answer your question I think we have to delve into and analyze the various factors that influence and shape the social, economic and Political Structures of various countries. The State should (at least in theory) be a Mirror reflection of the Society that it represents. That reflection might not be perfect or pleasant but due to constrains we will just touch on a few reasons as to why that tends to be the norm in most under-industrialised societies (e.g Somalia).

There are two Main factors that play a dominant role in defining the State institutions of any given country. The criterion of distinction is often the level of economic activity combined with structure of social organization. Therefore, in highly industrialized societies such as the U.S the defining factors are the Market forces, which dictate the Political structures. The economic class structure in U.S is well defined as opposed to Somalia. The struggle is between the bourgeoise and the workers. Therefore, these are the two main forces that are competing to influence and build structures that would reflect and institutionalize their Ideals. Economics are more of a defining factor here than any thing else. From an individual perspective, It does not matter what clan or ethnic group you belong to but what Economic Bracket you are in. These factors would also influence your political orientation and will dictate which "Clan" you would support, the Republican or the democrat.

On the other hand when you look at under-industrialized Societies such as Somalia, the factors that influence and define Social and Political structures would be very different than those in U.S. Or Europe. In Somalia the class structure is not very well defined. If you look at the social structure you will find that its clan based. The Clan is the Nucleus of all social and Political interactions. An individuals "safety Net" is the Clan not the State. For instance, If an individual commits a crime (e.g. Murder) the whole clan is somewhat implicated. In times of economic hardship the individual relies on his close Kinsmen not the State. If you further analyze the clan structure you will find that it closely reflects and almost identical to those of a State. Thus, an individual's devotion is to the clan not the State. The Clan and the State have conflicting economic and social organization system. Infact the contemporary state in Africa was a European institution imposed by the imperial power with total disregard of the internal dynamics of the respective countries. But in cases where economics are a major factor you will find that an individual will down-play clan loyalty if its in his best interest to do so, as it is evident in the current struggle for power in Somalia between Aideed and his fellow clansmen. But this power struggle is an exception rather than the norm. In the not too distant future as the country evolves economically the social structures would reflect this move and you would eventually see a shift in social structures.

Hopefully the current attempt to redefine the State structures in Somalia will eventually lead to a formation of a State that truly reflects the Society that it represents. This will be a huge accomplishment and could be used as a Model by other African States where the European imposed structures have become a source of conflict and destruction. Africa does not need alien European structures, it needs is State institutions that reflects the culture, tradition, and religion of its people.

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MADMAC

Monday, September 04, 2000 - 11:11 pm
Papa
Brilliant write up. If you are not part of the new Somali government - you should be. You need to lose your contempt for the west and keep it in the perspective reflected in this write up. The only thing I would suggest to you is that the US government is not only a product of "Market forces" but also a product of history. When the consitution was formed, in the pre-industrialized era, there were other factors which competed on an equal footing with economy to create our constitution and our institutions that support it. These are very difficult to modify and have become entrenched.

Do you think this new government has a chance??? As I stated before I'm cautiously optimistic. Advise whoever you can this government should entice foreign investors but it should not, I say again it should not, borrow money from any source. Accrued debts, often borrowed money that does not profit the nation since it is stolen by the political leadership, becomes a crushing burden. Since Somalia does not have to deal with this issue right now it should keep it that way.
Glad to see you on the net.

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Walaalkiin

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 06:37 am
Nabad iyo Naxariis Ilaahay Korkiina Ha Ahaato

Marwadii Haboonayd Xaaliyay waa hore oo hore oo aan dhawayn sabinkii Cali Yusuf markii dan yartii reer Yurub iyo mooryaantoodii wakhtigaas u kacaameen dhul la helay iyo Cali Baysteen Carigiisa ogoobay waxay u kala dageen isir iyo abtirsiinyo siday u wadaageen.

Qoloba meel bay iska oodatay sida Jarmal iyo Holland ama Daj, Ingiriis, Isbaanish iyo Faransiis iyo Yuhuud iyo Ayrish iyo wixii la hal maala.

Madoowga iyagu markaa dad ma ahayn, ma laha geela Soomaaliday bay isku qiimo ahaayeen.

Markaa Xaaliyeey qoloba dhulkay tagtay bay u magac bixiyeen markaas bay yiraahdeen waxaan nahay mustacmarado madax bannaan.

Hadaba baarlamaanka maanta Maraykaan u dhisan waa mid ku salaysan qabyaalad cad oo ka daran tan lagu dhisay Carta ee bal ogow.

Boston haddii aadan Ayrish ahayn ihii hadal adag baa ka jira. New York haddii aadan Yuhuud ahayn waa laguu yaabaa haddayna garabkaagan joogin.

Markaas baan reer hebel sidaa u noqonaa haddii aad madoowdahay maanta waxaa laga yaabaa in kistoo laguu gooyo laakiin waa marka ihii dheregto oo reer abtigay la xuso sidaas waaye Xaaliyeey.

Carta ma ihinoo aniga waxaan leeyahay "noolow noolow aabaha Soomaaliyeed Mudane Gelle" sanadka soo socdana waxaan kuu caleemo saarayna Madaxweynihii UMMADDA Soomaaliyeed ee subaxii labo jeer daaradda ku orod si aad wiil yar u noqoto.

Intaa iyo wax ka dhihistayda waaye Xaaliyeey.

Ilaahayow Noo Naxariiso

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Press

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 08:10 am
Papa


I must begin by saying i found your speech quite confusing.Dont get me wrong,i highly concurr on the issue you presented.It was factual and complete relevance.I sincerely think the govenment of somalia would present leaders with which have commons on the society they do represent.despite all this,i fail to see you answering the question of this woman Xaali.Clearly you were redandant enough to confuse me and others with your yet true aspects of somalia.But we as the audience would like to know you as an informed person:Do you think the government of somali,elective seats should be based on tribal lines ???I would also add my question:Do you think somali wouldfair well if the country was divided into regional states with its clan inhabitan ruling ,and maintaing a federal link headquaters?Say adopt the present american style of governing,despite your adamant insitance on abandoning the 'west'..governmenship?

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Xaali

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 01:28 pm
Annonymous lol, waad iga qoslisiisay.

Xoogsade, let see what awrka has to say for himself!

Papa, good to see ya :), good analysis too.

Walaalkiin, garanay oo ruugnay. Allow sahal ammuraha.

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PaPa

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 05:28 pm
Press,
As I stated above, The State should (at least in theory) be a Mirror reflection of the Society that it represents. The "New" administration in Somalia is a mere reflection of the Somali society today. The society is clan oriented. After all the state does not exist in a Vacuum, there are outside forces that influence its structures.

A weak federal system would have a better chance of success and especially given the culture of distrust amongs the various stakeholders. The people would be more receptive to the idea of a decentralised State with strong regional government. This would also lessen the struggle for power since the Presidency would only be a symbolic post.

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Alipapa

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 08:12 pm
xaali;

What is the difference between tribal line and regional line when in fact every short-sighed-idiot and everybody's-hard-to-see granpa could see, in Somalia, every region is resided by limited tribes?. then aren't both of them(regional or tribal)the two sides of the same disillusioned-cone, after all?.

I mean, what difference does it make what system we adopt (regional or tribal)when we all know that the MP(parliament member) from Hiran would be either Xawadleh, Badicade, Galje'el or Jejele which is exactly of what we have today(by using tribal line)?. And no matter how the MP tries to pull some strings out, she/she will never be isaq nor ashraaf?.


And the one from Borame would be only Gudibirsay or Isa?. And no matter how he/she pulls her/his hairs out, she/he can't be dhulbahante nor could be galadi.


And the One from North East would be majerten or deshishle? And no mater how many times she/he reads huud and ancaam, she/ he will never be abgaal osman nor habargidir-iljeex.


You see, at the end of the day, what we have is same person who came only different systems.

In other words, there are many ways of victimizing same rat or skining a poor cat. And To me,these two systems are just like that.

One problem i see is we,somalis, awlays confuse clan/tribe with clanis/triblism. I think the difference between the two can be summarized like they are like race and racism respectively. And we all know race is legal in the US but racism is not.

And also I was in kenya and I saw how kenyans use tribe effectively without confusing with tribalism. Kikuya Mp can only be elected from the kikuyu region not from somali region nor jalwa region.

In conlusion, i don't understand why you preffer regional line over tribal line.


alipapa

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Anonymous.

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 08:21 pm
Xali. I was being sarcastic. Glad you found humour in it. By male.

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MAD MAC

Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 10:27 pm
Papa
You are spot on. Exactly the same thing I've been saying. Weak central government, strong regional governments. How do you think this new government is going to work out?

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Anonymous.

Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 04:57 am
Alipapa, be careful Xali is not the type of woman you can harrass. She will cook your balls for dinner.

secret admirer.

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Alipapa

Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 06:29 am
Mad Mac;

You are absolutely right. What we need is weak central government and strong regional administration but only by taking into consideration that regional administration can't decide to secede from the rest of country.

And what we need also is a government that has no much influence in the economy where most of the money are people's hands--not the goverment. One thing i always liked Italy is the strong private sector and the government's weak influence in the economy. it is possible that Italy has 4 different government in a single year . And guess what? nothing changes in the country's economy.And the reason is it is private sector that decides country's economy. Government is a civil servant after all. They wrok for the people.
So yes you are damn right !.


Anon; Believe me xaali and I are old friends. And to her, my harrassment will be like gabadhii tiri "naaska ina abtigey iga taabto waa saan u fasirto--walaaltinimo ama saqajaanimo."

But hey, you are right. Being a somali woman, sooner or later xaali will be asking for Alipapa's harrassment and i will be happy to give her dose. Just wait and see!

Alipapa

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PaPa

Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 07:31 am
Xaali.
Check out this piece, let me know what you think. The beauty is breath taking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_911000/911610.stm

Mad Mac,

The Mandate given to the present administration is huge, personally I dont think anyone who was part of the previous regime has anything of substance to offer to the future of Somalia. This is a very delicate and critical task they have been entrusted with. The biggest task will be to bring about a lasting Peace which will lead to social and economic stability. But there could never be peace as long as Justice remains elusive, I dont think there could be any peace untill we have a "truth and Reconciliation process". War criminals should be brought to justice. We cant just move on and pretend like nothing happened.

"True peace is Not the mere absence of Tension, its the Presence of Justice"
Dr.Martin Luther King

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Guilty

Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 08:55 am
This question is very easy to me.

Because they are not stupid as the somalis who kill them self,destroy there country and bring death to there children.They also dont worship qabiil like somalis. Who always ask u " yaa tahay".

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Anonymous.

Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 11:38 am
Alipapa indha adkidaa ma iljeex baa wax kuu gashey?. Bro that was my two cents and don't change the subject okey.? Let us read what PAPA HAJI writes and how MAD kisses Ass. yeh you are right..uhu..yeah I know that... How come I don't see the dickhead moron who opposed anything intellectual from a somali man...oops and a woman too(I almost forgot there was xali)..

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Xaali

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 05:11 am
Papa, thanks for the link.
It is indeed gratifying to know that there is a sliver of recognition for women's potential. In my opinion, it is a practical thing to do, as women bring a different dimesnion and prespective to the reconcilation initiatiaves Our country is in dire need of instituions and infrastructure at all levels of society. However, often times sectors that get sidelined are the ones that target social services. I see a great potential for women's leadership in this area, more so than other sectors.
As for the issue of centralised vis a vis federal government. I am in favour of a federal system , (based on regions) but with a strong centralised defence, in the future. We have to reclaim NFD and Ogadenia by any means neccessary.

Annonymous, no balls for me. I am vegetarian:)

Alipapa, do refresh my memory please. I don't recall the 'pleasure' of meeting you

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Walaalkiin

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 11:59 am
Nabad iyo Naxariis Ilaahay Korkiina Ha Ahaato

"Me too"

Soomaali oo midowday Soohdin kala lahay
Sinaan loo istaagoo Socod wada qaaday
Salaanta Calankiyo Sareeyoow ma nusqaamow
Sumadiisa shanta ah soo sidaan rabay ma aha

Ilaahayow Noo Naxariiso

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Press

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 12:09 pm
Papa

'The people would be more receptive to decentralised state with strong regional government.'Your quote is once again evasive and ambivilant.So are you suggesting that Somali is not ready for a centralised state government?If its yes,then u've answered my question.Inadvertently,i might add!

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Alipapa

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 04:23 pm
Anon;

see? i told you Xaali will be asking for it!. But i guess i am runing out of stock(harrassment inventory). But wait ! Anon, are you sure you aren't the other side of the same cone ? lol.

Xaali;

Dear, hada maan is inkireyna mise xoogaa "nostalgia" ayaa kuu heysa the "pleasure" of our meeting?. hey, akhyaar badan oo halkan joogaa filimkaas waa galeen.

Alipapa

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Xoogsade

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 05:49 pm
Ali Baabah:

Hooyadaa nacas bay gablana way ku dhiman illayn wax jira ma tihide.

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Xoogsade

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 05:50 pm
Cali Baabah:

Hooyadaa nacas bay dhashay gablana way ku dhiman illayn wax jira ma tihide.

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MAD MAC

Thursday, September 07, 2000 - 10:11 pm
Papa
Thanks for the insight. It would seem to me that a truth and reconcilliation commission on the model of South Africa would be hard to accomplish in Somalia unless one could tape into Islams message of forgiving those who ask to be forgiven. The other problem, though, is the warlords and Mooryan. They aren't likely to ask for anything unless its at the end of a gun barrel. I don't know how the new government will deal with that problem. I'm just hoping this thing works.

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anonymous.

Friday, September 08, 2000 - 12:07 am
Alipapa.

I am the same side of the corn, but conditioned, with some mixture of the other side(talk about being lucky). I would vote you out of the flock for your idiotic and unintelligent behaviour you always do in the forumss. Do me a favour, don't furt again in the place.

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Alipapa

Friday, September 08, 2000 - 06:12 am
Anon;

Sorry to put your ass on spot. I am known to be ass-revealer. And hey, i will do your favor but in return of you will do mine. And mine is here.
Don't ever try to play unintelligent and childish game that even my kid can see it. Remember "ogoow dhuumashada qaar uu dhabarku muuqdaa waa dhib iyo hadimee". Next time play tough play and seek!.


Xoogsade;

I really hate when i see handicaped and those who have sability like you trying to drag down the mighty men.

But hey, that is the IT IS something will never change and enjoy dragging me to the mud.

I once read one great writers signature which goes like "Don't you ever argue idiots for they will drag you down to their leve. And then Oh! God! they will beat you with experience" . I see i am been beaten with the idiocity expertise here!


Rest of the folks;

Are you really wants to read some wild stuff to read--i mean real ctiric? well if it is yes, join me here;
http://x59.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?thitnum=4&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=968424631.195166233&new=0

I hope you will enjoy.


Alipapa

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Alipapa

Friday, September 08, 2000 - 06:17 am
Anon;

Sorry to put your ass on spot. I am known to be ass-revealer. And hey, i will do your favor but in return of you will do mine. And mine is here.
Don't ever try to play unintelligent and childish game that even my kid can see it.

Remember the following words "ogoow dhuumashada qaar uu dhabarku muuqdaa waa dhib iyo hadimee". Next time play tough with your hide and seek!. And let's stop marry-go-round ok?


Xoogsade;

I really hate when i see handicaped and those who have disability like you trying to drag down the mighty men.

But hey, that is the way IT IS something will never change and enjoy dragging me to the mud.

I once read one great writers signature which goes like "Don't you ever argue idiots for they will drag you down to their leve. And then Oh! God! they will beat you with experience" . I see i am been beaten with the idiocity expertise here!


Rest of the folks;

Are you really wants to read some wild stuff to read--i mean real ctiric? well if it is yes, join me here;
http://x59.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?thitnum=4&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=968424631.195166233&new=0

I hope you will enjoy.


Alipapa

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