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     | Unrecorded Date "I hate Somalis..." "Somalidaana....Waligey ma'arag wax lamid ah!...." "I don't associate with Somalis..." Etc, etc, etc Have you ever said those words, silently to yourself or out loud? Have you heard those words? Maybe a friend said them, maybe a brother/sister? It is amazing how many Somalis run away from who they are, or their heritage or from each other. Here is where the irony lies....Somalis always search for other somalis! We are always together, can't live far away from each other. At the same time we criticize each other constantly. Here is my question: If we all think/say that we are better than the "average" somali, then who is the "average" somali? Let me know your thoughts...please no personal attacks...it gets us nowhere. Look forward to reading what you write.
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| | Unrecorded Date Somalis are like the germans (although not as productive) individually they are lovely, but collectively they are dreadful.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, when you say who is average? are we talking about criteria or characteristics that can be associated with the majority of the Somalis in the disapora?? In general, human beings are creatures of their envrionemnt, and thus associate according to the level of comfort they can attain; i.e. one enjoys spending time with some one from the same socio-culture background. That is why for instances, we crave to socialise with our homeboys/home girls:) If one looks at the trends of migration among the Somalis, From the 1960s to the end of the 1980s, it was a voluntary migration for educational or employment opportunities. People came overseas to get an education or to get a job, the longterm goal was to go back home to invest and rebuild the country etc. etc. In the 1990s, as a result of the war, the whole nation was displaced, it was no longer the "students" who came overseas for education, but everyone from the farmer, the fisherman, and the camel herder. Now, when the former students; farmers; fishermen; camel/cattle/goats herders; the guulwades; the tailors; shoemakers, shopkeepers etc etc etc etc all came together overseas there is bound to happen some communications gaps due to perceptions of issues. How issues are seen/discussed for each segement of society is based on their normative perception based on the values they grew up with. In my opinon, I think, people feel uncomfortable when they associate with some one who can not relate to how they perceive the world. That is when one hears "war waxaas reer baadiyaha" "war waa gar dheere" "waa ciyaal xamar waxba ma oga" iwm It is possible that one expresses dislike (instead of Empahty)when one meets someone from a different background.All this is further exacerbated by tribalism. We are a society in transistion, it requires a concious effort and patience to empathize with where we are all coming from. My 2 cents;).
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| | Unrecorded Date Asalama Alaykum ALL! TO: Caraweelo! Sis, have u ever seen my post of "..is there a ghost"??? `Cause, I have seen what you have seen---with myself, those who I love, my neighbors, and friends! ALL the somalis that I know(INCLUDING me, sometimes)...search for a "ghost" somalis. I guess, in the back of our heads, we have this great moral picture...that, we, somalis as a whole, lack. I don't mean to sound so self-centered, but I truly believe that Somalis have a really really good moral---they identify their evil...they judge themselves justly...EVEN though they may still continue to do that which they saw as "immortal". A somali is NEVER hypocrite, litterarly, it goes against everything that goes with the Somalis` great deep of moral. For this reason, I will ALWAYS think my Somalis as simply the best(OK, maybe not the best, but so darn good)! Thanks...for a good discussion! Blessed BE! Peace, Ahmad! *>.<*
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| | Unrecorded Date Xaali: Very good “2 cents” & insightful, I totally agree on the historical perspective that was laid out. It’s unfortunate that certain people still take a broad brush to paint all Somalis specially among men, yes it’s true today, Somalis compromise of Farmers, Former students & Job seekers (How arrived before the civil-war), the Camel herder e.t.c as you pointed out. However let me also add that, we Somalis even those claiming to be better than that elusive average lack the ability to Listen calmly & respect each other, inability to be willing to look at thinks from different prospective contrary to your held believes. A common attitude among Somalis specially in meetings is “ if my views aren’t embraced than no dice”, Every one wants to be the “Big Kahuna” or the “Chief”, that’s why when you go to a Somali meetings, it bears close resemblance to the Trading floor of New York Exchange, with all that noise & commotion Peace
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| | Unrecorded Date TO: Annonymous! How dare you identify Somalis with the Evil, Creepy, Hypocrites, Double-faced Germans????? I need to laugh! The day that somalis are identified with Germans...MUST be a dooms-day. PPPUUUUHHHHHLLLLLEEEEEZZZZZZZ! Who is more creepy than he who punishes and toasts a nation...and then does not have the balls to say "YES, I did..."????? They blame Hitler for the Holocaust----GIMMMEEE a break! It was the neighbors, the normal civilians, and the normal German "friends" who gave away the Jews. And now they're trying to say that it was "Hitler"???? and that they were "afraid of him"????? What, do they not know...that good people SACRIFICE themselves to what they think is "right"???? I would regard them as "victims of evil" when they were persecuted for what is right---but NNNNOOOO...they were very much happy to toast the Jews. And now they're all "no, no, we were afraid of him."---yeah, right! Somalis are nothing like those hypocrites, Annonymous---they're on the two sides of the universe, in Moral! Is it just me...or do you get your blood into your head with this ridiculeous statement??? AND, i'm not personal-attacking Annonymous, either. I just don't accept the ridiculeous statement, itself. ...sorry for any offense I might've made! Blessed BE! Peace, Ahmad! *>.<*
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| | Unrecorded Date Ahmad; If I understand what Anonymous meant with the analogy, it was to imply how as a group we somalis have been pretty destructive. And that is true. In the name of tribalism we destroyed a country. I don't think He/She disagrees with you. You both agree that Somalis as individuals are great. He/She is taking it to the societal level. I don't think he/she was equating us to hitler. Also let us not minimize the horrors that animal did to his people. Yes the army, gestapo and SS carried out the killing, but he was the mastermind. Remember "Mein Kampf" (sp?)- Hitler's book. He laid out his entire plan there, 10 years earlier. But we are treading on dangerous grounds. We may loose our ability to discuss civily if we open the door of "blame". Back to the point re: High Morality of Somalis- It is true that our essense is good. But why do we hurt each other? It seems to me that we are very good at doing that to each other. Xaali; Great analysis of events. How do we overcome this breakdown in communications? what can we do about it? Mullah; Good point..we all think we are "it"? If we analyze ourselves honestly (and the anonymity of the internet helps) are we guilty of that? Are you? Sometimes when we look at a people, pass judgement (we are all guilty of that) we behave "superior"? How can we overcome that? Can we overcome that? Or are we all guilty of a neurotic impulse to feel superior? Thanks all for participating!
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| | Unrecorded Date Mullah the problem with Somalia is Toooooo many chiefs but few Indians. My only……..):
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| | Unrecorded Date Alex; Are you an Indian or a chief? Be honest. What do you believe you are- deep in your heart?
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| | Unrecorded Date I guess this sense of “Superiority” while prevalent in the Somali Society, is nevertheless exclusive to them, it’s one of those Human weaknesses that transcends among all societies. Having said that, “it takes all kinds of people” to make this world & furthermore we are all equal under Allah, so who are we to look down on each other? They weren’t joking when they said, “ Humility is a virtue”. Was I guilty of It..…YES, but I see it as my bias, One among many that I struggle to get under control. Peace Alex, use to be a chief but was demoted to an Indian...lol
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| | Unrecorded Date All I know is that I don't associate with someone who wasn't born in Xamar. If you have came from small town and/or village(baadiyo). I will not assocaite with you because you have no class. I hate REER BAADIYO SOMALIS. It's true they are not open minded and are hard to understand because they talk about stupid Tradition (Dhaqaan). PLEASE..Be Pezaniiiii.
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| | Unrecorded Date correction on the Above Post, "NOT" exclusive to then
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| | Unrecorded Date To Ahmad I am pleased that you found my statement both outrageous and amusing. So in your book Somalis have high moral standards? So what happened during and after Siyad Barre? Was that pic-nic? Let me rephrase my statement "Somalis are collectively dreadful, and unlike the Germans they are ignorant, and lazy to boot"
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| | Unrecorded Date I totally agree with Anonymous above. You might want to add "...and blind at that...".
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| | Unrecorded Date I totally agree with Anonymous above. You might want to add "...and blind at that...". Somalis are some of the poorest people in the world, yet to listen to them, you would think they are all descendants of Persian kings. They look down their nose at anyone who does a honest day's work, yet a little digging into their finances will trace back to Social Security cheques. But the dumbest thing I have seen a Somali do is cheat the systems on which they depend, and then say "Why not, they are gaal", or "adoonku [meaning Blacks] muxuu leeyahay?". Ignorant, stuck-up jerks, all of you.
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| | Unrecorded Date To Anonymous and Co. Ouch! oooooooouch! guys what you are saying hurts!!! granted there is an element of truth in it, but why don't you talk about solution to the problems eh? How can we become un-stuck, non-ignorant "pezani" that can peacefully live together?? How can we empathize with someone who is not on the same wave length? What are the principles of tolerance and compromise? I am sure we all know the problems that we have as a society. WHAT ARE THE SOLUTIONS????????????????????????????????????????
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| | Unrecorded Date Caesar: You said it all. Speak up for the truth. Way to go fellas.
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| | Unrecorded Date Asalama Alaykum All! TO: Annonymous/Caeser! ANYBODY, in the world, who has a peace of mind---has made peace with his culture. You MUST accept it, first---then recognize it, then live up to it. Darood and Hawiya...are the two clans who kill each other---and when you ask BOTH of them, each tells you "nah, it felt wonderful to kill 'fakhash'"...or "dabamadoobe"----this is most evil(killing another believer,) but they LIVE up to it and not hypocrite about it. LETS get that from our "not-so-ignorant" German friends! ...life begins with goodness. Somalis may not be practicing(all of) what is good...but they don't deny it...nor do they cover it up with lies. A somali will stand there...and will tell you how he feels. This is one basic morale de aldente. HAHAHAHA! As for 'welfare'---lets not forget, most of us got that, it comes with the packag! :-) When you become of proud of who you're...then and ONLY then can you move on and say "ah, those days!"---Nations before us made mistakes...and made mistakes and made mistakes---and then learned from them. ...ALL I know is that somalis are far far far better than those creepy Germans! Blessed BE! Peace, Ahmad! *>.<*
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| | Unrecorded Date to caraweelo, you sure do bring up a good point.when i was reading your message, i couldn't help but remember the way i used to feel about somali people. I was guilty of using several of the statements which you mentioned above. I was not born in Somalia and i grew up in North America. somali was not my first language, english was.All my life i'v had non-somali friends, there were no somali students in any of my schools, untill recently.I couldn't tell you the exact time i changed but as i was getting older i was becoming more and more attached to my culture.I think part of the reason had to do with how closenit my family was.Last summer I went home(home to me, is somalia now)for the first time, and walahi i could not describe my feelings to you in words. you may sit there and critisize our home land but it will always be a part of you. Do you think that these western societies that we've all fled to is going to accept us the same way our homeland will? i fail to understand what this whole forums discussion is about because to me all somali people are my people regardless of thier tribe, city, strenghts, weeknesses, habits, faults and the list goes on.I choose not to generalize and state that somali people are like 'this' or 'that".Every nation has its good and bad seeds, so quit picking on eachother and take each person for the individual they are, instead of catagorizing them as a 'loser' , 'chewer', 'flight 13' ... and whatever else the case may be. I love everything about being somali, thats who Allah chose to make me, and i'm not about to change. like you caraweelo, i have yet to find this typical average somali, whom everybody seems to pick on, critisize and judge.
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| | Unrecorded Date Ms X; I am glad you feel that way. It is true we are all one. To Caesar and Bj; If somalis are lazy- welfare-cheating morons, brother man- you are one too. after all, good or bad, aren't they your fathers, mothers, aunts, uncles, cousins? How ever far we run, How ever hard we try to distance ourselves from the "other somalis", we fail! For one can not run from one's self.
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| | Unrecorded Date Broadly speaking Somalis will generally possess every fault in the book as a community. They are lawless, anarchic, backward and basically lack home grown talent as well as long term plans. They spend too much time talking and they do little work. Frankly speaking our biggest problem seems to be our tragic culture which appears to admire and glorify mass murders and destructive people rather than hard working decent and honest individuals who contributed to well being of the society as whole. Having said that Somalis are also courageous, proud and humorous society. I don't know about you lot but I always find other Somalis interesting and entertaining. There is something really mysterious that attracts everyone who ever comes into contact with them. There is hospitality aura that welcomes you and makes you at home among them. Never mind those who believe otherwise, Somalis are as interesting as every other nationality in the world. Whoever feels uncomfortable with them, he/she is the one with the problem not us. All I got to say to those who may feel uncomfortable with us is SAAKIIN LIQ , cuz we are too proud to feel your little unease……………………………………….
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| | Unrecorded Date To Ceas I think you aren't somali. And if you are, then i feel sorry for ya. Why don't you love yourself, or your people?? I agree that all somalis aren't perfect, to the point of not being nice to, say for instance, (other African or Jamaican etc). That really hurts me coz they are human beings too, regardless of their looks, take them as they treat you. But honestly, I beleive we have the best culture (minus the gossip, looking down on so-called blacks: as if we aren't black ourselves:). And that isn;t even a relegion thing. I am talking some of our best culture. So i say be proud of what you are, and disassociate people who give your people a bad name. peace
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| | Unrecorded Date Oh please, don't feed me Siyad Barre's propaganda: "Somalis are funny, courageous etc. etc." Sure they are, and leprechauns exist. Listen people, don't blind yourselves: All these superlatives are empty words. When every nation creates geniouses, famous artists and beloved peacemakers (yes, even Germany, where a lot of Western literature/philosophy originates), what are Somalis doing? Raping, looting and obliterating each other. Even on this forums character rape and assasination are the common practice. Tell me, exactly what evidence do you all have for the assertions of bravery, morality, kindness and hospitatility? Americans are brave, Native Indians moral, Arabs are hospitable. But what are Somalis? All the world has observed of Somalis since they became independent is ever increasing destruction, poverty, mindless conflict and un-ending strife. Then Siyaad Barre comes along and, in a desperate attempt to remain in power, weenes you on feel-good sentiments and catchy songs. All hogwash, more suitable for nursery rhymes than adult conversation. Give me a break. Sure, Somalis are interesting, but so are the suicidal lemmings, and pink-assed babboons. Sooner or later you're gonna get some kid running to a cage in the zoo and calling out "Oh, look everyone, the Somalis are bashin' each other again!"
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| | Unrecorded Date To Xaali The solution to our problems is education (for education is the greatest equalizer), and educated Somali children are our only hope for redemption. From the outset, I want to be honest, and state, as a matter of factly, that I gave up on most Somali adults long ago, and I am worried sick about the future. This is because, at present, most Somali children in Somalia are not being educated, while the ones in North America are being brought up by parents who don't value education. In my humble opinion, it appears that most Somali mothers are more concerned about buying the latest "diric" or "set of jewelery" that Mrs. Heblaya brought from the Middle East; while, fathers gather around coffee shops to discuss the latest events occurring in Somalia, (go figure) as though they can do something about it. All this is further exacerbated by the constant uprooting of children from the US to Canada and now back to the US, because "shabta" is always better elsewhere. To Ahmad First of all, we have to come to an agreement that our culture has many shortcomings. Perhaps, after accepting that fact we might be able to resolve the issue at hand. But if we constantly deny that our culture needs improvement, we will always find ourselves in this predicament. You may ask, and rightly so, what predicament? If our culture was so great why did Somalia collapse? Why cann't we resolve our differences after so many years? Why? Why ? Inquiring minds want to know!
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| | Unrecorded Date To: Caesar I never knew you harboured fascination and found humour in the most unlikely and weird sources as "pink asses". As you put it. Just FYI the characteristics such as bravery, morality, kindness and hospitality are in abundance in Somalia. That has never being in dispute and for you to come alone and ask for evidence proves nothing but how ignorant and argumentative you are about the subject in discussion. Sorry chief but we can't actually reason with someone who, his likely source of humour is the backside of certain animals. we simply don't have the same taste in life Get you head examined!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date Asalama Alaykum ALL! Annonymous, ...You MUST first accept your culture(evil or good) for you to be able to improve it. What can you improve...if you don't even ACCEPT it, to begin with??? This is the A, B, and C of psychological improvement of one`s culture. I don't say that we don't have many bad Cultures in our Nation, but I believe, as whole, SOMALIS have a good moral and basic good. One can only see this when they made peace with their BAD cultures. BEFORE that, everything will look just "BAD." Lets not get ahead of ourselves! Caeser, ...you're living in this day of repeating-itself. You're going with the crowd of the "negativity" and that itself is simply BAD culture---so start with yourself. Be able to see and fashion the ideas of others and why they need to be noted. As long as you are 'blaming' and not 'establishing'...the idea of the "bad culture" stays with yourself. Blessed BE! Peace, Ahmad!*>.<*
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| | Unrecorded Date Caesar; I feel your anger. Sometimes it is easier to give up then to actually make some sense out of it all. Let me ask you a question? Aren't you a Somali? Aren't your family members Somali? Are they "destructive"? Are they "useless"? Are you "useless"? From your writing I see you are educated. I am sure you are successful in what you do. If you are a Somali, and you live with high moral standards, have achieved, doesn't that mean that some Somalis are not destructive? Why then generalize. From your angry tone I see you are hurting. I am sure it hurts you to see our country not doing so well, either from the current butchery or the Siyaad regime's activities.
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| | Unrecorded Date To caafi: Actually, for YOUR information, it's Somalis that have the sense of humor and standards of amusement of a hormonal thirteen-year-old boy. Just read the Ila Qosol threat: all filled with heavy sexual content, bashing others by region, and men comparing wives. In fact, Somalis don't recognize anything more convulated than infant humor, along the lines of "The Three Stooges". Once I advised a Somali acquaintence (considered an "intellectual" by his "community") to read "A Modest Proposal", an essay written by the British satirist Jonathan Swift. The essay dealt with the treatment of the Irish peasants by British landowners. It (IRONICALLY) suggested the British might want to eat Irish children to reduce the poverty. Remember this is irony (ie the author means the exact opposite of what he's saying). After my Somali intellectual had read the essay he returned it to me and said, in apparent shock, "Why did you give me this disgusting treaty, I already knew these ate their children?" I rest my case, on that point at least. Another thing I notice is that you don't actually provide proof of these Somali virtues everyone is throwing around. Please, just give me several examples of internationally reknown Somalis. That is, Somalis who have made their mark in other than war and destruction. I already anticipate at least one of those. To Ahmad: Now why in the world would I want to improve this Somali culture? It's already gone beyond the point of no return. Listen, Somalis are the bit of spinach in the teeth of civilization. Someone needs to remove them and flick them into the great garbage bin of life. If they haven't done so already. Finally, to those of you who entreat kindness towards Somalis on the grounds of them being my relatives: My father was an incompetent fool. He was enlisted into Siyad's army because he was of the "right" tribe, at the time. A chewer of qaat, beater of women, and blind to all his faults. He had about eight wives (at least that's the tally now), all of whom he deserted and abused. His interest in his countless offspring was superficial and fleeting, only lasting for however long he had a good source of qaad, and wasn't being scolded by Siyad. The last I saw of him, he was desperately forging documents, and renouncing any relations to his needy children. I hope he doesn't show up out of the woodworks, demanding money now that he's sure we don't need him anymore. As for my mother. Well, she was, and still is, a weak-willed woman, who handed me and my brother and sister to the booyaaso, and only felt maternal when good old Dad came to visit, so that she could demand money. She used to parade me and my little brother in front of him, cooing about how big and healthy we looked, while exiling my sister to the kitchen, where she would cry bitterly. Mother was lost in her own world of jewellery, dirac, and mirrors. The best thing she ever did for us was to choose a competent and caring booyaaso. Now I have set her up in downtown Minneapolis and periodically send her a cheque, otherwise she calls, whining incessantly. Now to brothers/sisters. I have two full siblings both of them live with me. Both are in their teens and A-level students. I have curbed their natural arrogance and tendency to assume all others are inferior to them. I have taught them to associate only with the successful and ambitious (eliminating all neighborhood Somalis), and that no, no Somali tribe is better than any other, they are all messed up. As for my other brothers and sisters. They are all either on welfare or in dead-end jobs (or both, I have noticed). Their only contact with me involves pleas for money or fake documentation to leave where ever they are. The only ones I reply to are the ones in Somalia, and all I do is sent them money occasionally. It serves to keep them quiet and satisfied. There. Does that answer your questions about what my relatives are like? By the way, the fact that I am successful is more of an exception that proves the rule: by eliminating racism, sexism, tribalism, and lazy-fingure pointing, I have managed to make something of myself. Generally, I find that the less I associate with Somalis, the more I love Somalia. How many of you secretly feel the same?
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| | Unrecorded Date Caeser, provacateur of the "Majordome" calibre....you don't deserve a response.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo I wanted to be the chief of the Cherokee Indians but I was discriminated. Now as Mullah said I’m an Indian.
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| | Unrecorded Date To:caesar Just more evidence of your total disrespect and generalisation of whole society. These are the very symptoms of those who ruined Somalia. If you are not one, you definitely show all their characteristics. What is the point of claiming that you have ditched"racism, sexism, tribalism, and lazy-fingure pointing" when you judge whole nation through you limited experience without any shred of evidence. Before you ask us what Somalis have achieved, can you tell us what contribution you personally made to the world? . I guess the answer is zilch Evolution has ordained that the product of a" fool" and "weak " species will always be a weak. You show the entire whole marks of someone who totally lacks the confidence and composure to be true to his self. What is the point of exposing the national pride and joy to a product of "fool…."? Nuh Let fools stay in
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| | Unrecorded Date Cleopatra, Any comment is a response, child. Caafi, You silly bubble-gum-snapping brat, you still have no clue what you're talking about. I bet you were one of those school children, wearing green/yellow uniforms, wholehearted singing songs of praise to Siyad Barre for "saving" Somalia. Now you want to turn around and austerely claim you want to save Somalia, oh and incidently, Siyad was a jerk. Am I racist? I don't think so. I have many African American, Arab, and Hispanic friends (many Somalis will claim the same at this point--the only difference is I don't turn around and insult them). The number of Somali friends is rather low (read none-existant), but then I don't associate with highschool drop-outs (read Caafi), chauvinistic imbeciles (read Somali males), or weak-willed idiots with elephantine egos. Tell me, if you're so versed in evolution, what does it say about a population who has perfected the art of self-destruction and stupidity? I'll tell you what it says: extinction. Little girl, go back to your studies and hope against hope you are a mutant. Perhaps then you can be an assett to whichever society you parasite upon, rather than a liability. "Limited experience without any shred of evidence"? Tell me, what do you call evidence, those long-winded and impromptu speeches given by your tribal leader, cataloguing the virtues of his ignorant and merciless underlings? Or maybe your own experience with Somalis is limited, so that you have blithely decided they are a great lot, if only someone'd give them a kick in the pants and send them to school. Or perhaps you, like every Somali I have ever met, blind yourself to faults in the hope no one else'll notice. What have I done for my world? Let me see, I have single-handedly raised two kids and assured that they'll be productive human beings, regardless of where they are or whether they want to buy into the big Somali Hype. I have managed to get myself through school and get a Master's in Economics. I make enough money to satisfy even my mother, a black hole if I ever saw one. And finally, I service the great Dollar Drain. That is, I send money back to Somalia in the hope that next time, instead of killing each other, they'll buy food with it and survive the draught. What have YOU done for your world? And are you still unable to find these phantom Somalis we keep praising?
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| | Unrecorded Date Caeser, you are so self centered that you only hear your own drums. There is a difference between a comment and a response. One addresses issuses. Why are you bragging about education? I and many of my friends who use this forums have a MA or MS degree from Ivy league schools and have paid our due respect to our families by providing as needed. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT ALL THAT??? You have holier than thou attitude and you have internalised the western garbage of blaming parents for everything. Stop watching Jerry Springer Get a grip, seek therapy, you need to do something about your skewed self esteem and identity crisis. Yaa Caasi waalidiin. Ps: unlike you, Caafi is a gentleman, so don't mistake him for a girl. Oh why did i waste my time on this idiot???
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| | Unrecorded Date Cleopatra, Spare me the pop-psychology. "Internalized... identity crisis...self-steem...Seek therapy". Exactly who has internalized western garbage? God, have you ever wondered that maybe it's Jerry Springer who's the therapist, and you kids the patients? By the way, I don't blame my parents for anything. They are not any different than all Somali parents everywhere. Just a product of their culture, which, I have tried to point out many times, is a product of the people. A never-ending cycle of death, destruction and hopeless inaptitute. And I DON'T HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS. I know just exactly who I am, what my values are, and where I want to go in life. But more importantly I know who I DON'T want to be: one of you parasites. About your claiming to have a MA or MS, so what? I didn't point out my achievement to compete with you (Somalis always have to say "Mine is bigger than yours"--infantile competitiveness at work), I mentioned it because one of the clones asked what I have done for "my world". And what I have done, kid, is more than all of you cheerleaders ever did or will do. You froth at the mouth if someone so much as mentions the problems of Somalia, yet what have YOU done? Sweep everything under the rug and buy a bigger TV set, I'll wager. Brats.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caeser,you spare us the fake rage and "accomplishments" that you bragging about. No one is interested in your dirty linen, so spare us the sop story about your dysfunctional family. Learn your history, and don't compare apples and organges. Somalia is not in the Western hemisphere. We all know what the problems of Somalia are. We are intersted in solutions not blames. Tunnel vision is bad for your sight, expand your horizons. Assimilate if you will, but don't think your origins and all the bagages that comes with it will disappear. Quit being in denial, you oreo cookie, uncle Tom.
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| | Unrecorded Date Ceaser Man you seemed more confused than ever. I can't believe you regard an achievement on your half what millions of Somalis have naturally done without bragging about it. Have you ever listen to your self or in this case read what you are writing? One moment you were inquiring what Somalis have achieved but when you got asked exactly the some question your promptly replied without any hesitation that you raised your off-spring and sent them to school. If you considered that an achieved why don't you apply the same formula to the million of decent hard working Somali families that have done the same thing in more hazardous condition and recognise that as an achievement. Here we go again! I can't believe you have the gut to consider your self educated and open minded when you have openly and narrow mindedly stereotyped whole nation according to your limited experience. As I said before Somalia was ruined by people or should I say "jerks" who lacked education and the personal vision to see the future. People who failed to understand that their personal success actually lies in the well being of the society as whole. I will not be surprised if you tell me you were in Siyad Barre's regime and only recently changed your former uniform. A YES man without any personal will would always remained the same. Back to your old habits of sycophanting for someone ….. go on …tell us your love with the West…….
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| | Unrecorded Date Wow! I just finished reading the last few messages... Ceasar; I don't know what to say and how to start. First, let us try to separate the general from the individual. What I mean by this is to try to speak about your personal experience and not to generalize to all. Your personal experience may hold true for many somalis, but you can not speak for them. Each person responds differently to events that happen in their lives. Stereotyping gets us no where. You had an unfortunate childhood. It affected you and made you a very bitter man (from what I read, since I don't know you personally, that is all I have to rely on.) But have you ever tried to understand "why"? Sometimes by looking at the reasons we can understand the actions. I am not excusing your parents behaviour but only trying to understand them. Your mother; what education did she have. Probably not much. She was doing what she thought was the best. She was trying to emulate her mother/grandmother and other women role models. The way she treated your sister may be a good insight to how she felt about herself. Your father; trying to "succeed" in what he thought was a good way of life, he may have made terrible choices. The fact that he was drugged most of the time (afterall isn't that what "Qad" is? a drug) was that his escape? Was he angry with himself and his limitations? His wife-beating shows his lack of self-esteem and insecurity. He was trying to regain control. Inexcusable but understandable. Raised in a household such as the one you grew up in leads to two distinct personalities: 1. A repeat of the past 2. A repulsion of the past In the second scenario, one distances ones self from the past and all that reminds him of it. I think you are there. But nbefore you condemn the entire nation, let me ask you, do you think your children (or the kids you raised) will become like theose you hate? I don't think you feel that. So why can't there be other somalis who have lived right. My background: Loving, caring, educated parents, who sacrificed everything to give us the very best, both in educational opportunities and emotional. I think we did well and are contributing members of the society. My family is not unique. I know many who lived such lives. By the way, you have an incredible sense of humor! I also know a lot of "black holes"!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date to all caasi walideyn maxaad kala hadleysaan. caeser man charity begins at home and before you start preaching about somali situation, you should closely look at your self and find out what is wrong with you. hint - hating your mother of all the people on earth ( 9 months in the comfort of her womb, living on her blood, gave birth to you after may be a long labour, breast-fed you, washed you and clothed) only for you to turn to this mother hating, somali hating, brainless brat with a masters in economics. sorry sisters through my ignorance, for which i apologize, i always tought only ladies imitate this stupid wetern calture. till later on my bike
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| | Unrecorded Date The problem with Somalis is denial, denial, and more denial. Why is everyone clamoring at Caeser? He is trying to make a point: "I don't blame my parents for anything. They are not any different than all Somali parents everywhere. Just a product of their culture, which, I have tried to point out many times, is a product of the people." For the few of you, like Caraweelo, who have been blessed with "Loving, caring, educated parents, who sacrificed everything to give us the very best, both in educational opportunities and emotional", I say great. But if all Somalis were blessed with such wonderful parents, as Caeser well put it why this " never-ending cycle of death, destruction and hopeless inaptitute?"
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| | Unrecorded Date Anonymous, tell me any group of society that did not go through an upheavealy of some sort in the history of their existence?? Somalia is paying the price of being political apathetic during the dictatorship of Barre; tribalistic pralysis and reconciling the challenges of moving from a nomadic/agriculture based society to a modern one. Caeser, is sterotyping without regard to the underlying issues, and then he has the audacity to inform strangers about the conduct of his parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Conduct unbecoming indeed. No one is denying the challenges facing Somalis. Some of us had it easier in terms of others and thus have acheived a "measure of success according to western standards" DOES THAT GIVE US THE RIGHT TO DEMEAN AND PUT DOWN A WHOLE NATION????? I think not.
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| | Unrecorded Date Go Cleopatra go! Well put sister
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| | Unrecorded Date Salamu Alaykum. Culture; what is it? Can it be refined? Can it be polished? Does it mean enlightenment? Or does it refer to civilisation? Does it depend on time, place, environment and communal relationship? Can it be generalised? Or at least can the popular culture be spun? It is a fact that societies have popular cultures and depending on time, space and communal relations have bad as well as good ones, it is also equally a fact that Somalis today are not particularly in their high time hence it is not surprising if we are having a rough shake at the moment, what is ridiculous however is to dispossess Somalis of all good cultures at any time, that could only mean either of two things: to deny the light of a sun in a sunny day in a temperate region in the middle of July or the inquisitor is suffering from false memory syndrome, the former should be ignored and the latter should be cured. Let us remember the good old days of “marti gelin” and hospitality and the sacrifice of the only goat the family had for the sake of a guest, let us also remember that the guest could have been the enemy you have been looking for, but the good old Somali culture prohibits any harm to be inflicted to a guest while in your home. Let us also remember the nostalgic feel “wadananimo” although it may sound very strange today you just have to see through the messy shadow of unpatriotism prevailing today and there lies a patriotism past the Somalis had. Let us also remember how tribalism, which is one of our major predicaments today, have served us in the past as a social security system. Let us remember the peace making skills our “nabadoons” had and how they coped with a continuous battle over meagre resources If all that I have mentioned in this brief commentary session are misconstrued, and every thing can be, then the good and beautiful face of Somali culture will present itself as a horrible face many of us are trying to take a strike at, and if we judge Somalia at its present day where we are at our lowest point of our living progression curve then the whole exploration is indeed very ill timed. and finally let us remember although we crashed politically we are at peace socially and commercially. Wacaleykum wasalaam.
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| | Unrecorded Date Sorry visitor if I cannot relate to the good old days, for I grew up in Mogadishu in an era where corruption was rampant. For a long while, I even naively entertained the thought that once we rid ourselves off the Tyrant, Somalis would go back to its wonderful (pardon me fictitious) culture of “Marti gelin, wadananimo, and nabadoons.” After ten long years of suffering and destruction, that day has yet to come! Visitor, let alone enemies being safe in your homes, most of us have either witnessed or heard (from reliable sources) of men killed in mosques, and women raped by their neighbors. What a rude awakening! I came to accept as factual that Leaders of nations are a product of their people, as Ceaser said again and again. But do you ever listen? I am tired of making excuses for my people, and I accepted as a fact that in general Somalis as a group are cruel people, who undermine their daughters, abuse their women, discriminate against other tribes, and tolerate injustice done against others. All this, ironically, while they profess to be devout muslims who fear the Day of Judgement. What exacerbates matters is that one cannot even reason with other Somalis without name calling “Caasi Walaadiin, Western Lover, Oreo Cookie, Etc.” Am I missing something? Somebody, anybody please help!
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| | Unrecorded Date Anonymous, clarification on one point the name calling was started by Caeser. The response was in kind. Personally, I am tried of blames and put downs. I am interested in solutions, correcting mistakes and moving forward. Bitterness doesn't get anyone anywhere.
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| | Unrecorded Date Ah yes. This is more like it. The major ingredient in Somali arguments: the emotion-ladden appeal. The don't-air-dirty-laundry-please-please-please. Because if you do... if you point out the gross incompetence and greed of all Somali leaders everywhere. If you mention the constant and horrifying acts committed by these "generous, hospitable" beings. If you relate anything that puts all and every Somali to shame...if you do any of this, then you just might crumble the fundemental framework of Somali identity: Narcissism. Pure, unadulterated love of oneself. We all hear them: the "Somalis are the most beautiful, graceful of people", the "Somalis are literary giants with a great oral tradition" (ever though it might be because they couldn't manage anything else--no work, no writing, invention, nada; just blah, blah, blah). But my absolute favourite is "Somalis are really quite religious people", as the smart fellow related above. Of course they are religious. Only problem is their main object of worship starts with the letter "S". But Somalis are occasionally willing to accept they may not be absolutely perfect. But even then, they resort to two excuses: Bad Culture, and what I call the Un-ending Transition Stage. That is, Somalia, like every other nation, is going through a period in it's developement. This excuse has two fatal flaws: Somalia never gets OUT of this stage; and is the cause of this restlessness reasonable conflict, causing by differences in ideologies, races, cultures? NO! Listen, a "nation" is simply a group of people who either choose to, or are forced to identify with each other. Now, many nations went through a stage where there is upheaval, civil war etc. BUT ALL HAD A REAL, MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE. That is, there were/are basic differences, proven by history and genetics. Now Somalis not only have culture and race the same, they are all Sunni Muslim (which even removes the possibility of Sunni vs. Shi'ci strife). So what causes the conflict in Somalia then? Ask any group of Somalis and they'll all say "Tribalism" promptly. But this is not really true: how can "tribalism" cause a generous, intelligent man to pick up a weapon and kill someone else? The problem is Somalis anthromorpholize ideas and concepts. They think tribalism is an entity that exists independently, causing havoc and destruction. This entity drives men to kill each other and rape women (or vice versa). Why don't we stay closer to human nature (evolution you might say) and admit that Somalis are simply bloody-minded savages (perhaps they are all descendents of the African version of Vikings), who, being violent barbarians, devised a system by which they could legitimize murder. No culture likes to glorify violence directly. Rather what they do is beautify it, by linking honor, intelligence etc to it. This is similar to wrapping a satin ribbon on a ballistic missile. It ultimately fools no one. So no, Somalis will never change or learn from their mistakes. They haven't got the attention span (or backbone) of a bowl of porridge. Therefore the solution is not to eradicate tribalism (kinda like treating the symptoms and not the disease), it's to put all and every Somali on Ritalin. And by the way, for the fellow who nostalgically calls on those glory days of Somalia, let me give you a suggestion of what to do with those sweet, sweet memories: pour them into a hot-air balloon and float back to whatever alternate reality you popped out from. Somalis were NEVER at peace. Less people died because the weapons were just less efficient. Sure, there were "nabadoone", and sure they wanted "nabad". But ultimately, so did Hitler. Kill off all enemies, and baby, have you got peace!
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| | Unrecorded Date To Cleopatra: Nope, I am not comparing apples & oranges. More like apples and worms, really. Worm gets into apple, eats it from inside out. Then you are left with a rotten and empty husk. But pesticides usually do the trick though.
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| | Unrecorded Date To Ceasar; You, my friend, are a ranting, egotistical, unforgiving man! So your parents weren't so great? so what! I find it so laughable that you think that only you can see through the darkness of our culture! Only you have escaped the madness of our culture. So judgemental! Somalis are this and that. "They are murderous. Haven't accomplished anything", blah, blah blah. And you have. "Single handedly raised 2 children" risen out of your genetic pool, have you now? What makes you so unique? What gave you that "X" factor? I argue that you are not unique, just one in many. Talk to any somali. Listen to them and you will hear exactly what you just said. Nothing ground breakingly, mind-blastingly profound. We all hate what has happened to our culture. maybe it was always there, festering under the surface. Maybe it was implanted by colonialist, fed by the neo-colonial puppets of the 60's, enflamed by the small minded military men of the 70's and 80's. Remember all these phases of leadership were one and the same. All of them educated in the same place and from the same generation. Hatered, by whatever guise- religion, tribalism, ethinic, race- all the same. Rally the masses by whatever cry. I am amazed that you do not see that. That you blame the society. Yes, a nation is a grouping of people. But don't forget, the direction of a nation is determined by its leadership. And ours, like all African nations- early Latin American nations, some Asian countries, SUCKED! Don't paint the people with the sins of the leadership. Most of the people were just trying to get by, feed their children, avoid jails and keep safe. Remember however "objective" you think you are, your reality is your own, seen through your eyes and interpreted through your upbringing/heritage. Give me a break!
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo, Caesar grew up with the mentality that "the early bird gets the worm" see his derogatory remarks towards worms above! He only sees the perspective of the bird and thus has no appreciation for the worm who is also up early for the same reason as the bird. With that eskwed vision he opts to compare apples and worms. He can not emphatize with worms for he has been patronized by birds all his life. Mind you the fact that both the worm and the bird are living creatures is immaterial to him!!!! The guy needs to be sent to "reeducation camp" for some serious oreintation. I would suggest the following courses: Course 1 - How to appreciate your hertiage; the good, the bad and the ugly Course 2 - Recognizing that there is a statue of Limitation on anger against parents. Course 3 - How not to blow your own trumpet
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| | Unrecorded Date Why we can not understand that the assessment of a society or a people does depend on time place and the evolutionary policies they are going through, why we do not realise that public attitude and public opinion does fluctuate and is indeed a very fluent and dynamic matter, someone will never do justice to Somalia and Somalis if he keeps assessing Somalis on the basis of this decade of madness, Somalis are in a state of depression, politically, socially, economically, their attitude and indeed their public opinion. If assessments are based on what they are now and why they are what they are, that is fair enough, but if selectively assessments are based on what they are regardless of why they are what they are that is clearly not fair representation of the situation. We do not label a patient to be a bad person but rather a sick person now and in need of treatment. What is usually neglected as far as I can gather from these commentary sessions is who will treat Somalia and Somalis? It is the conventional wisdom that societies are led by their intellectuals, in this modern world our intellectuals could be the “educated one’s” and if we talk some statistics here, in our generation at least those who are the “educated one’s” are not in Somalia but outside Somalia, for the last ten years there has not been any structured main stream educational system, the emphasis here are on (main stream), those who have got the chance to be educated happen to be outside Somalia. The idea of the “educated one’s” to be the healers and the saviours of Somalia does really bring home. How will that happen? How the “educated one’s” will get the grip of the situation? And how can they overcome the obvious challenges? Or are they really up for those challenges? That is something, which have to be discussed, devised and debated. For an “educated one” who does not realise that burden is naturally entrusted with him but rather keeps blaming the current dismal situation in Somalia now and tries to extrapolate this dismal situation far into the root of Somalis, some even as far as their parents and ancestors, that will only make us prolong in our periphery and maze of madness. Wassalaam
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| | Unrecorded Date I haven't done any intellectual slumming for nearly a month, so I can't remember exactly why I thought writing anything here was productive. But here goes: Caraweelo & Cleopatra: How can you accuse me of adherring to subjective truth, when in fact you two have decided that Somalis are people of great moral and intellectual genius? Is there anything more subjective than self-flattery? At least one of you admits you were brought up in "nuclear" family, and therefore supposedly well-loved and sheltered. But the majority of Somalis were not. Either their fathers were killed in various skirmishes with the "enemy", or they were so high on qaad and male superiority that family solidarity and love was a joke: "What, stay home like a woman? Or work in back-breaking labour like a midgaan?" That's the true Somali thinking, not this Hallmark card sentiments someone has been lathering over you like so much soap suds. And this caasi waaladiin stuff: Sure, we shouldn't scold, judge or insult our parents. This is the only honest Somali stand that I know of. I am sure neither of you EVER, silently or out-loud, chastized your parents. Neither of you ever thought, "What a mess the past generations have made of Somalia! How unfair they were to themselves and to everyone! How narrow-minded, how ignorant, how disgustingly petty! If only they'd listen to ME. If only they'd heed reason. If only someone could teach them compassion, tolerance, and peace!" Of course you all did. It's what you base your hopes of a peaceful "Somalia" on. You think that Somalia would be a far better place if the oldies would step aside and let the new, politically-correct legion of fresh-faced Somalis through. But in all this thinking and scheming, why is it everyone else's parents are murderous villains and ignorant peasants, while YOUR parents are gentle, loving paragons of virtue? Why is it that, just because I recognize that my father directly axcerbated the horrors, and my mother was too self-absorbed (and benefitted from it too much) to do anything about it, I am a caasi waalidiin? If I am a caasi waalidiin, then you're all caasi cilmi.
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| | Unrecorded Date Welcome back Ceasar; I never said "all" somalis were virtuous and without flaw. Never. All I blame you for is how you think that ONLY YOU can see through the mess. Only YOU? What I ask is, if you why not others. Optimistically, more than half of the "masses" may feel exactly what you feel. Realistically, a few. Your honesty is refreshing. I see you have spend many a night thinking about your experiences. I am sure that you did not come to your conclusions lightly. My problem with what you write, GENERALIZATION. When one generalizes, one lies. An entire nation can not be all bad, immoral and degenerate. It is naive to believe that.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo: You write that "an entire nation can not be all-bad, immoral and degerate". On the surface, this may seem reasonable. I certainly don't think all Somalis are "bad". I simply think the Somali CULTURE is immoral and degenerate. Most others, and I, have seen evidence of this. Somalis elevate tribalism to the level of religion, and tribalism is degenerate. It's an obsolete and dangerous artefact from a time when Somalia did not even exist as a nation. Tribalism does not belong in a just society where the rulers are democratically elected and everyone has a right to life and liberty. Yet Somalia will never be just such a society because the fundamental identity of every Somali is based on his/her tribe. Any attempt to separate tribe from identity is doomed to fail. Pretending otherwise is naive and counterproductive. It's assumed by many "exiled" Somali "intellectuals" that education creates equality, and that when these "intellectuals" return home, they will create a functioning social order, based on democracy or the shariica. But what do you want to bet that when (or if) any of these young hopefuls go back, they will put away their diplomas and PhD's and pick up daggers and machine-guns? Or, used to healthcare, free education for their children, jobs or Welfare checks, they will take the next lift back to their safe and comfortable exile? Of course, to blame tribalism as an entity separate from Somali characteristics is absurd. If tribalism is an essential part of Somali identity, and Somalis created the tribal system, then the *need* for tribalism must be an essential Somali identity. Now what kind of morally superior society creates an entity that undermines their own supposed morality? When I "deny my heritage" as many of you accuse, exactly what am I denying? Which particularly desirable Somali trait do I undermine? Cohesiveness? A love of justice? charity or compassion? Nationalism? When I forsake "our culture", am I really leaving behind what is unique to Somalis? Certainly not. Any minor positive Somali trait can be found elsewhere, in a more comprehensive and universal form. So please, unless it becomes self-evident that Somalis are indeed "far better than those creepy Germans" (an incredibly asinine claim) don't scold me for renouncing a useless and harmful society which upholds values that alienate any right-thinking individual.
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| | Unrecorded Date Ceaser, which perfect society have you adopted?
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| | Unrecorded Date LOL@Cleopatra u a smart one sister LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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| | Unrecorded Date Ceasar; Here is what I think: you are very angry at the society because you CARE about it. One only gets disillusioned with what one cares about. If you did not care, you would be apathetic- or indifferent. Maybe facing harsh/ugly realities will be the cure for the "immoral" part of our society. Maybe not. Just a thought.
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| | Unrecorded Date Caraweelo: Aha. It appears you're true nature has revealed itself elsewhere. I am not surprised. Truth will tell. Now, when you write "maybe facing harsh/ugly realities will be the cure for the immoral part of our society" I finally understand you: You don't mean individual responsibility and national ugliness, you mean the particular tribe you're slandering on the other thread. I should have known no Somali is capable of consistent fairness and love and respect for ALL other Somalis. At least I can say in all honesty that I don't belittle any one tribe over another: I despise ALL Somalis. Now that's true equality. So Cleopatra-- Your siamese twin has done the (nearly) unthinkable. Or are you also of the same sentiments?
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| | Unrecorded Date AF WEYKAN MAY LIKI AAAAMEEEE!!!!! HAYAAAAAAAAAAAY WAAAR YAADHAHEEE INAAR DEE NAGA YARA DAAYA DEE GAW...... EYAAHEE XAALI INAAR DEE U YARA KAADI CARUURTU GARAN MAYAAN THE CONTEXT OF THE LANGUAGE YOU ARE EMPLOYING. AND PLS GIVE ME THE 2CENTS NEXT TIME YOU THROW THE 2CENTS BILAAMICNE. SIDAA IYO IS AKHRIS DAMBE
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| | Unrecorded Date Caeser, I will answer your question, when you answer the question I asked you in my post of Dec. 3.
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