     Ahtitaf | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 07:54 am
Haybe wrote Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 06:12 pm
< Ahitaf
.
< .... So, I am curious
< to know where does this narrow-mindedness comes from? If you truly
< believe that everybody should live within the boundaries of their country
< of birth, then surely something is wrong here! As I said on earlier occassions,
< people will always move from one place to another in order to improve
< their lives. People have always done that and will continue to do so.
<
< What is the rationale behind your little fixation on keeping people
< within the boundaries of their country of birth? Are Finns more
< wary than most other Europeans when it comes to immigration?
< and if yes, why?
Dear Haybe,
Thank you very much for your comments
and questions.
I think that countries are entitled to decide who
can immigrate to them. It seems the Somalis
tend to think they are entitled to move anywhere
and get all the benefits belonging to the citizens
of any country. I object this kind
of thinking of Somalis.
It is OK to me if some country allows immigration
of Somalis. On the other hand I accept also immigration
policies denying entrance for Somalis.
Forbidding Somalis to immigrate Finland is a good
idea, because Somali cultures and Finnish culture
are not compatible. What is right in Finnish culture
maybe wrong in Somali cultures and vice versa.
This kind of situation will lead to conflicts.
There is also a genetic point of view. As you may know
negroes are the least intelligent race and thus they fail
to run developed countries. I think this might apply
to Somalis, too. There is alas evidence that
Somalis have failed to run Somalia.
I have nothing against the less intelligent people, but
importing them to a country that is developed for
more intelligent people maybe frustrating to
the newcomers. They do not understand the
new country and its people. They might feel
that they are oppressed while not realizing
they are incompatible. This may them want
affirmative actions. This might lead to
a phenomenon know as "token negro" which
is actually a burden to all parties concerned.
I do not think that any political announcement
made by the UN, EU or Finnish Government will
change the genetics and function of negro
or Somali brains. Better approach is to
create countries designed for negroes or
Somalis that would meet
their needs and match their abilities.
Let me specify. I think each nations and
races deserve countries optimized for them.
This is not a bad idea. Allowing the existance
of monoethnic, monoracial as well as
multiethnic and multiracial countries
is true diversity.
Personally I do well with negroes, better
than most whites I believe. Perhaps I am
less intelligent, too.
Best wishes,
Ahitaf |
| Haybe | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 10:21 am
Ahitaf
Nice to hear from you again. You obviously did not see my discussion with one of the Anons regarding the issue of Intelligence and Race. There is absolutely NO fool-proof system of testing IQs. Most of the so-called evidence which show that blacks have lower IQs than whites are based in testes carried in the US, where it is true that Black children under-perform in the education system. But this of course fails to take into account a whole range of issues. Please refer to my earlier posting.
You seem to think that backward countries must have people with low IQs. Let us try to follow through this arguement to its logical conclusion. Intelligence, means progress. Intelligence is inherited. This means you are not more intelligent than say, your greatgrandfather. So why was finland a dirt poor country with Famines and civil wars only few generations ago? are you saying that the new generation is super-intelligent while the nation's grandfathers were as thick as two planks of wood?
I agree that nations should have a say in who enters their countries. In a democracy, this is done through the will of the majority in a ballot-box vote. If the majority of the Finns wanted no immigrants in their country, then they will vote for those parties that advocate these policies. At the moment they simply don't. So I think unfortunately for you, most Finns do not agree with you. May I also remind you that Finland is not a country that attracts lots of immigrants, so your worries are unjustified.
Yes. Somalis think they should live wherever they want. Most other human beings think so too. Except it seems, you and a small minority of Finns who write in this forum. Remember, since you are big on skin colour, there are far more white people in Africa than there are black people in Europe.
Grow up and open your eyes Ahitaf. The world is still beautiful and life is too short to be wasted on petty racism, petty tribalism and petty territorialism which is far more suitable to hedgehogs than human beings.
And believe you me you are not actually doing the reputation of your beloved country any good by associating it with views that most of the civilized world has abandoned about 60 years ago.
Have a nice time. |
| Ahitaf | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 12:07 pm
Haybe wrote:
< Yes. Somalis think they should live wherever
< they want. Most other human beings think so too.
< Except it seems, you and a small minority of
< Finns who write in this forum.
Dear Haybe,
I think the attitude of Somalis you mentioned
will generate troubles. Maybe that has happened already in Africa.
In Finland many people think that other countries
belong to the people living there and they have a say whom they allow to enter. There is also a saying that one should live in a foreign country according the way that is prevailing there. This means that most Finns regocnise that they cannot force people in other countries to live like Finns. This also means that the Finns are so considerate they do not want to insult people in other countries.
Many white people dominated countries who are accepting immigrants have a screening system when
selecting immigrants. Canada has a point system. Australia is selecting people according to their employability and whether they are needed or not.
But that applies to white people. Perhaps negroes can bypass all the screening E.g. in Canada.
I have got an impression that Somalis think they
can enter any country and they can bypass any selecting system. I have got an impression that Somalis think they own the world and the world should finance their living. May I point out that there are different kind opinions in other countries.
The Somalis who have entered Finland did bypass the normal immigration procedures by claiming they are
refugees. They were not. And they claimed anybody disagreeing with them is a racist. Some ten years ago the Finns were inexperienced and gullible. But now the situation is changing, I think.
I see Somalis as a group of outrageous people not respecting the will of other peoples. I think this will end in serious conflicts when the white people in Europe understand what is happening.
I regard your ethics as an one that belongs to thieves. I guess you see it in another way.
Thank you very much Haybe for letting me and other readers of this forum to learn the way Somalis think.
Ahitaf |
| Ahtitaf | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 12:39 pm
Haybe wrote
< You obviously did not see my discussion with one
< of the Anons regarding the issue of Intelligence
< and Race. There is absolutely NO fool-proof
< system of testing IQs. Most of the
< so-called evidence which show that blacks have
< lower IQs than whites are based in testes carried
< in the US, where it is true that Black children
< under-perform in the education system. But this
< of course fails to take into account a whole
< range of issues. Please refer to my earlier
< posting.
Dear Haybe,
The reference I have seen about this subject
claim the tests have been culture fair. They have made tests in Africa, too.
Now comes the interesting part. Finding negroes
less intelligent has not been the goal of the tests as this idea is nowadays politically incorrect.
It is the best kept secret of world that there are differences between races. It is of utmost importance to the mankind to regocnize this as denying it causes problems.
As being white it does not disturb me that
Asiatic people are more intelligent. So it should not bother you that Asiatic people are more intelligent than negroes.
< You seem to think that backward countries
< must have people with low IQs. Let us try to
< follow through this arguement to its logical
< conclusion. Intelligence, means progress.
< Intelligence is inherited. This means you
< are not more intelligent than say, your
< greatgrandfather. So why was finland a dirt poor
< country with Famines and civil wars only few
< generations ago? are you saying that the new
< generation is super-intelligent while the
< nation's grandfathers were as thick as two planks
< of wood?
Actually the earlier generations were as intellingent as the present generation. The
intelligence of the earlier generations
made it possible to make Finland prosperous
now. The current Finland is based on the
work of the earlier generations. And they
did work for the better future for their children, not for Somalis.
Let me present another example. After the
second world war Europe was in ruins. Some
magical force made it possible that 20 years
later the continent was prosperous again. The force
was the intelligence of white race.
Now, let us have another example. For how many
years Somalia has been on its own. Is it prosperous and peaceful? I think it is the people of a country that make it prosperous and peaceful. What have the
Somalis done. There must be abundance of natural
resources in Somalia.
Is it time to be honest. It is the Somalis
who must do something for their country and stop
claiming the harvest of other man.
Dear Haybe, I know it hurts to find out
the facts. I would be very glad if my thinking
was proved wrong. Please understand that I have no intention to insult you or degrade Somalis.
Best wishes for you and Somalia,
Ahitaf |
| Ahitaf | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 02:21 pm
Haybe,
Correction to my earlier writing
False
< I regard your ethics as an one that belongs to
< thieves. I guess you see it in another way.
Correct:
< I regard Somali ethics as an one that belongs to
< thieves. I guess you see it in another way.
Please accept my apology. I did not mean you but the Somali people in general.
Ahitaf |
| Haybe | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 03:24 pm
Ahitaf
It is absolutley true that in an ideal world, most human beings believe they should live wherever they wish to live. I know the overwhelming majority of intelligent Finnish people understand this basic concept which you fail to grasp.
The reality is that we do not live in an ideal world. So countries do have immigration policies which they change according to the prevailing political climate. In Finland only 10% of the population describe themselves as Racist and anti-immigrant. This is slightly higher than the average for Europe but not by much.
There is no definitive IQ testing system. You can look as much as you want. 40 years ago, the generally accepted "scientific" theory was that Europeans are the most intelligent, Asians come second and Africans last. Now it is said that South east Asians are the most intelligent. These include peoples like Phillipinos, the Vietnamese and the Burmese - not prosperous countries.
Also some "white" countries are very poor. The Balkans, Belarus, Paraguay, Ecuador,Moldova and many others are poorer than some African countries. It is simplistic to link intelligence with prosperity.
Europe rebuilt very quickly after its senseless and Barbaric war. The Money came from America. You obviously havn't heard of the Marshall Plan. Africa of course have no such help after its civil wars and centuries of colonisation.
I again suggest to you not to give in to your little insecurity. Big people in big countries have no such fears. It is the sign of small minded people in a small-mided and culturally insecure country to demonstrate such a degree of fear - for that is what it is. I am sure Finland and the Finnish people do not fall into that above-described category.
Have a nice time. I hope you do not have nightmares of immigrants taking over your country. Sleep well! |
| Haybe | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 03:29 pm
Ahitaf
Just two more points. I agree with you that Somalis and any other immigrants should respect the laws of their host country.
Remember, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Latin America and USA are populated by Europeans migrants who were escaping pestilence, poverty and oppression from Europe. Proves my point about people moving from one place to another to improve their lives. |
| Ahitaf | Saturday, December 02, 2000 - 10:01 pm
Haybe:
< Europe rebuilt very quickly after its senseless
< and Barbaric war. The Money came from America.
< You obviously havn't heard of the Marshall Plan.
< Africa of course have no such help after its
< civil wars and centuries of colonisation.
Dear Haybe,
Thank you for your comments.
For your information Finland did not receive Marshall aid that was financed by the USA that was at the time concerned 90 per cent white. African countries have received development aid.
In case negroes are as intelligent as other races, why is affirmative action needed in the USA.
You correctly point out there are poor Asiatic and White countries. However the white and asiatic countries in average are doing better than negro countries. Howabout Japan, China, South-Korea, Malesia, Singapore. Where are the African countries
having companies like Sony, Toyota, Toshiba, Nissan etc.
Show me one prosperous negro run country famous of its science, technology and peaceful society. I think the RSA does not qualify, because it was founded by the white race and it is no more peaceful.
I hope you do not mind calling your assumptions in question.
Best wishes,
Ahitaf |
| Haybe | Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 04:33 am
Ahitaf
Hatred narrows the vision and limits horizons. You just clearly demonstrated that. A shame because I believe you are potentially a bright lad.
If your argument of intelligence = Propserity is to stand, EVERY Asian and European nation should be rich and prosperous. Moreover, every Asiatic country should be richer than not only African ones but white ones, since the IQ theorem now peddled in books like the Bell Curve say that Asians have the highest IQs. This is obviously not the case.
And this may come as a surprise to you, but the overwheming number of African countries are peaceful and tranquil. Some are doing fine economically as well. Botswana (with the highest per capita savings in the world, literacy rates of over 97 % better than most of Europe)Namibia, Gabon and Ghana are all doing OK. Even war-ravaged Mozambique had the highest growth rates in the world before the floods hit it, and is quickly recovering.
The development aid Africa receives is absolute peanuts compared to the vast aid and investment received by Europe and Southeast Asia from Uncle sam after the war, and in the case of places like Korea, malaysia and Singapore, throughout the cold war period as well. Tiny Israel with its 5 million population receives twice as much aid
from USA as the whole of black Africa with 600 million inhabitants.
"America which was once 90% white?" well, may be according to your logic, there should be NO whites in America at all! They should all return to Europe. So should all the whites in Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada, Iceland, South Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Sounds mad doesn't it? Well actually that is exactly what your core argument says.
And now to Affirmative action. History and sense of fair play obviously do not count for much in your theories. Black Americans have been oppressed and enslaved for 400 hundred years. They were systematically denied education, training, owning properties and their toil was never rewarded. Only in late sixties did they achieve a sembelance of proper citzenship. Surely it is not fair to expect them to compete on an equal footing so quickly after their semi-emancipation?
If America were to pay back the wages that its black citizens should have received throughout the dark period of slavery, the world's most powerful country will actually go bankrupt!
I hope you slept well and went to a place where everybody was white Finnish. Boring, but hey, whatever makes you happy. |
| Ahitaf | Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 10:43 am
Haybe wrote:
< Hatred narrows the vision and limits horizons.
< You just clearly demonstrated that. A shame
< because I believe you are potentially a bright
< lad.
First thank you very much for your comments.
I do not hate anybody. Least Somalis. I just do not want them in Finland. Let me tell why. I have learnt that Somalis have ruined their country. It seems they are very aggressive.
I am very happy if I can go on living in an all Finnish country with no ethnic conflicts, with no need to understand Somalis or any other special group.
Haybe, I guess you let not people from London streets to move to your home and eat your refrigerator empty and tell you to work harder so they can eat more. Probably you do not let this happen and you do not think that you filled up with hatred. - The same thing applies to the aliens in Finland.
Anyway I strongly support the idea that we must help Somalis to go back to Somalia.
Another comment. You wrote that there were negro slaves in the North America for 400 years. Not correct. Slavery was abolished in the Confederation in 1863. In other word you claim there has been negro slaves in North America since 1463. Not correct.
Did you know who sold the slaves to the new world. They were negroes. Recently BBC showed a documentary film about this subject. Slavery was a West African habbit and natural part of their life. Alas West Africans sold each other to slavery to the African continent and overseas, too. White Americans owe not a single penny to the negroes. Who do owe. Maybe the people who sold their fellow Africans to slavery. And they have been dead for a long time. So nobody owes anything.
Best wishes,
Ahitaf |
| Haybe | Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 12:08 pm
Ahitaf
Well actually, if people were hungry and I was lucky enough to have a fridge-full of food I would share it. It is only Hyenas and Jackals that refuse to share their carcasses even when satiated. But never mind.
Would you be happy if the Somalis were all working and were not on Social Benefits? Surely if your argument is pure economics then your answer will be yes. And let us hypothesize that all Finns were also in jobs, so the new immigrants were not competing against anyone.
Slavery in various forms occured all over the world in the past including of course the whole of Europe. It simply was a common practice. Nothing negroid about it. Slavery was not abolished with a florish of the pen. It continued in various shapes till the beginning of this century. Share-cropping in the South was a form of a slavery.
You don't believe anybody owes anything to Black Americans. Well most Americans black and white disagree with you. You believe that there will be no civil strife if people were all of the same ethnic group. How myopic. Finland had a civil war. So did Germany, Britain, Yugoslavia, Russia, China, USA, Spain, Italy.... I can go on. Most of these countries were/are very ethnically homogenous. These things are not really as simpilistic as you believe.
May I also remind you again that Finland, beautiful though it must be, is hardly a magnet for immigrants. I can think of very people who, given the choice of which country they would like to migrate to would put "Finland" as their first choice. No insult to Finland, but the poor world does not look upon Finland as an exciting land of opportunity. So your fears may be unfounded after all.
Sad because it is exactly countries like Finland which could benefit from an injection of colour and excitement.
Have a nice winter. |
