     Organizer | Friday, December 08, 2000 - 08:06 am
MadMullah writes:
Women in Islam – liberated or dominated?
For those of you who believe that women in Islam are degraded, then this may come as
a slight shock, as all these stereotypes shall be put aside, to allow the principles of Islam
to be discussed not some assumptions based on the tendencies or practices of human
beings.
Islam acknowledged a separate and independent human status of the woman imposed
upon her that she could not achieve perfection without knowledge. Only through
knowledge can both women and men develop rational faculties along with their physical
ones and therefore, ascend to a higher plane of spiritual existence.
It is essential for women to educate themselves in order to understand and follow the
principles in letter and spirit. Women during the time of the Holy prophet (SAW) acquired
profound knowledge of teachings and were remembered for their excellent capacity to
learn and understand. Aisha, the wife of the prophet (RAA) is particularly remembered
for her supreme ability to learn. Muslims learn approximately two thirds of the hadith
from Aisha.
The prophet stressed this saying; “the search for knowledge is obligatory on every
Muslim man and woman.”
Islam therefore, recognises an independent economic status of women and gave her this
right without any trustee or mediator. Many westerners also believe that just because a
lot of women in the Middle East have not got a job or career must mean that Islam does
not allow them. This is incorrect because the choice is there- whether they choose to
work or not.
In England today, women serving in government departments continue to receive less
pay from the government– is this equal economic existence?
The rights to hold property are recognised by both men and women, they are free to
mortgage it, to give it in lease, or bequeath it, sell, buy or exploit it for her or his own
benefit. Any such money or property which a women owns or any business which she
runs is entirely her own and her husband has no right to any of it. That is one of the
reasons why Muslim women keep their maiden name after marriage, an indication of
independent property rights as legal entities.
It was not until 1938 that the French law was amended so as to recognise the eligibility
of women to contract. A married woman in France before this, was still required to
secure her husbands permission before she could dispense with her private property.
In terms of political and social life, the general rule is that there is equal participation of
both women and men, Islamic history has illustrated this, the first person to die for
Islam was a woman, the first person to accept the message from the prophet was a
woman, this same woman named Khadija was a successful business woman who also
proposed to the prophet, despite him being fifteen years her junior.
In terms of domestic duties, Islam has relieved women of all manual drudgery. It is not
obligatory for a woman to cook the food for her husband or children, or to wash their
clothes or even to suckle the infants. A woman is free to refuse all of these without any
legal compliant being made against her. However, if she does voluntarily perform these,
it is an act of grace.
In some areas of the world like Pakistan, young girls are forced to marry the man their
parents choose for them without their permission. This is clearly wrong and is not part of
the teachings of Islam but part of the traditions of that particular area. The issue of
choice is very important in Islam – the girl’s decision is the most important, so if she
disagrees then her decision is final. Traditions, customs and culture of may countries
should not be confused with the teachings of Islam.
The permission for polygamy is an exception to the ordinary course, a rare case instead
of the norm. This point is much ignored by the westerner. It is an emergency law and
doesn’t represent any fundamental principles of Islamic Law; it has come to solve any
social and moral problems. And it must not be forgotten that in both the Bible and the
Talmud, polygamy is permitted, however, the practice of polygamy declined during the
eleventh century in much of Europe but does not conclude that the choice was not there.
However bad the current practice of polygamy may be, it must be remembered that the
blame should be directed to the tendencies of these men which have led to these
abuses, not at the Divinely revealed ordinances. Muslims believe that people should live
up to the standards set by God, not for these standards to be brought down to human
weaknesses.
Islam emphasizes the need for modesty and decency of dress. Muslim women expect to
be appreciated for their character and minds. Their clothes can be smart, respectful and
modest. Muslim women don’t want to be seen as no more than ‘objects’ of male
pleasure, but to be treated with respect, only than will women reach real liberation for
who they are and what they stand for. Consider this situation, what do men want? A
woman to be modest or revealing? I assume that most of you will be opting for the latter
conclusion, how can the choice of wearing a scarf or being modest be ordained by a man
when its totally against what men would want? Who is the liberating one here? The
Muslim woman who forces people to appreciate her for her mind or the page 3 girl? who
is more liberating? The woman who has become a prisoner of fashion, weight and
beauty or the woman BY CHOICE who defies all these external things? I'll let you
decide......
The miserable plight of the eastern woman is the result of economical, psychological and
social conditions prevailing in the East today. The wretched poverty that is present in the
East- where there is a minority of people living in luxury and others struggle to survive.
As a reaction to this harsh living, many people especially women are subjected to rough
treatment and persecution as people suffer the injustice and poor living – can love and
respect find expression in an atmosphere of poverty and social repression? A reason for
this is that many women and men are disgraced and ill-treated by chiefs of the village or
factory owners. This humiliation will turn to anger on their husbands, wives and children.
Islam also can not be blamed for the injustice many men do to women interms of
mistreatment and degradation. Similarly, the mistreatment of women in a country like
Columbia will not blame religion for this. Islam is not to blame as it preaches revolt
rather than obedience to injustice.
What the Muslim women lack in the east is not rights but the consciousness of their
rights. They are depressed, they are ignorant of what Islam has given them and have
been placed under many restrictions of customs and artificial traditions not sanctioned
by Islam. If they receive proper Islamic education, become conscious of their rights and
duties then they will surely break from their chains.
But the reason western people believe women are suppressed in Islam is because of the
power of the Media. It seems evident that Western studies on Muslim women are based
on confusing Islam at the practical level with Islam on the ideational level. Muslim
women in the Middle East are represented instead of studying Islam itself; they produce
data and st ...[Message truncated] |
| Beysaani-Macruuf-Waryaa | Friday, December 08, 2000 - 09:23 am
Salama...
Walaalkey, Duqa Cad:
We know this--and we knew it aforetime--indeed.
Let this awarings explain to those likeness of McMarxist. He surely needs this information.
__________________
Ramadhaan Kariim!!
Mac-Salaama!! |
| Galool | Friday, December 08, 2000 - 10:07 am
Organizer
There is no doubt that the Prophet was liberal in his views towards women. But of course, this was relative to his time. Let us not forget that Muhammad was born into a society where infanticide of baby girls was commonplace, and the number of women one can marry was limited only by the economic and social punch a man can muster.
These liberal views has now been made redundant by history. There is no doubt today that women are oppressed in most "Islamic" regimes. Ancient equality gestures mean nothing to Saudi girls who are not allowed to drive cars, or wear jeans.
I would've put more forceful arguments, but it is ramadan. Watch me after eid if you wish and you will see why I think modern Islam is totally out of synch with today's world view of gender politics. |
| Nour | Friday, December 08, 2000 - 12:35 pm
I wonder what Galool means by "modern Islam". Yes, there is "modern Muslims" but there is no such thing as "modern Islam". The fundamentals and principles of Islam never changes from Adam and Eve(or Allah knows when) until the day of Judgment. Other man-made or man-corrupted religions change for a temporary lifestyle change of Man. So Galool, I think a better way to spend your Ramadan would be to study Islam more and contemplate on the deep meaning and the wisdom of the Quranic verses.
May Allah guide us to the Straight Path
Ramadan Kareim |
| Trauntlabgirl | Friday, December 08, 2000 - 05:22 pm
Galool: You are missing the point. With all due respect, I don't think the article is discussing the lives of women in some muslim country (I don't wanna say Islamic country since there isn't one in the true sense of the word). What the article is stating is the position of women in Islam. The rights that have been given to them by God.
I think your argument would have had more substance if you said, Islam as practised by many muslims today has problems. Which adds to the distorted image the media presents
I think "the ancient equality gestures" would have meant something to the Saudi girls if they educated themselves in the obligations and rights established for them by their religion. Not by driving cars and wearing jeans. How can a nation prosper in this life and the hearafter when one half of its memebers are neglecting their duties towards God and themselves?
I think the men also need to be educated in the true meaning of Islam which would make them give up all selfishness, power hunger and love of tyranny, so that they would begin to deal with their wives and women under their care with love, compassion and and the equality that the QURAN ENJOINS! So Islam is not the problem. Islam is perfect. We (muslims) are not. |
| optimist. | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 12:00 am
I hope galool digs deep into what TLG said. |
| Galool | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 03:27 am
TLG
Thanks for a balanced view as always. Few points though. You seem to be suggesting that if Islam was to be implemented and practised to its original letter, women will have full rights.
This is difficult to quantify as you believe there are no real "Islamic" regimes in the world. Others, will of course disagree with you. Saudia, Afghanistan, Iran, sudan and even Pakistan claim to operate Islamic systems, and use the Sharia as their guiding light in their legislation.
I have no doubt that the Prophet wanted women to be given as much rights as possible, and he achieved a lot in his time. But as I said earlier that was truly revolutionary at the time - it no longer is.
Even in your 'ideal' Islam, women will still be expected to participate in polygamous marriages, their word will carry 50% less weight than a man's in Islamic courts, they will still only be entitled to 50% of what their brothers get in parental estates, they will still be told how to dress and their spouses will still posses the "right" to beat(not too badly!) them up as the prophet allowed!
The dilemma for today's muslim legislators is that they have no choice but to stick to those outdated (and in my view outrageous and unacceptable) transgressions against women's rights. If they say, let us continue with what the prophet started, and grant women their full rights, the whole edifice of the Sharia will come tumbling down! other things will have to be ammended as well! So we are stuck in ways of thinking that may have been truly enlightened 15 centuries ago, but now seem to belong to the dark ages.
Ramadan kareem |
| MAD MAC | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 04:18 am
T-Girl
Good article. Does a good job pointing out the misconceptions of Islam in the west in general. I for one agree that local custom is often confused with Islamic teaching. The issue I really have with Woman and Islam is what if what I consider modest dress (jeans, a sweatshirt and a ballcap) you consider provacative? You see what I mean? I do not want someone else determining for me what is modest and what is not. That was my earlier argument against the imposition of Sharia. I don't trust those deisgnated to interpret.
You ask the rhetorical question to Galool stating "men need to give up selfishness, power hunger and love of tyranny." Well, we all know that's not going to happen. I don't trust systems (provided by Allah or otherwise) that depend on men to change their nature. Some individuals might, but taken as a whole mankind will always be greedy, aggressive and power hungary. Systems that recognize this, exploit it, and keep its more vicious and exploitative aspects in check are realistic. Pie in the sky systems simply lead to absolute tyranny. Hence we have the Taliban and Saudis whos regimes are marked by tyranny and injustice.
BMW - I have spent a lifetime oppossing marxism. I think Karl Marx was a moron who failed to think the problem through to its logical conclusion. Please, stop calling me McMarxist. It's annoying and not even close to representing my political or economic leanings. I would prefer you call me a lousy Kufaar or Gaal or something. |
| Trauntlabgirl | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 12:13 pm
Galool: Lets go to the basics . BTW, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. You probably know this but just bear with me, I'll try and get to the point as soon as I can.
Religion is a matter faith. The very meaning of word Islam is submission. When you submit, u essentially put all your whimps and desires aside. YOu do whatever Allah and his messenger have ordered, and stay away from whatever they have forbiden.
Now, lets look at the concerns you have raised in the ideal Islam you say I proposed. You say "women will still be expected to participate in polygamy" expectations don't always translate to enforcement. We are expected to take part in elections, however, no one comes and puts a gun to our head and tells us to vote. The religion was revealed for the benefit of the people. Those who don't want to participate in polygamy are free to abstain from it. Polygamy in Islam is a solution to a problem prevalent in soceity. Now, if you are asking why the Westerners never feel the need for more than one wife, then my answer is thanks to modern civilization and the open practise of unregistered polygamy in every hotel, nightclub or park, there is no need of geting oneself involved in regular family life.
The point about their words carrying 50% of man's in courts...that was just for financial transactions...and has something to do with natural tendencies which i'm not going to get into right now since I don't have my facts straight.
The inheritance thing you mentioned (which is not entirey accurate anyway) is due to the fact that the male has been burdened with the obligaton of financial responsibility for the family and it is only fair that he gets the bigger half.
The beating thing(sura 4:34). I wrote a whole paper on it this term, should I cut and past for you my essay?
Your last paragraph has bewilded me. Is something amiss or have I been drained by my battling all day " the structure and functions of membranes"? On the one hand, you say that what the prophet(SAW) brought to the pagan Arabs was revolutionary, on the hand you say they are outdated and are trangressions against women's rights. Explain things to me like i'm a six year old abti. I'm kinda confused here. What has changed in this society today? Jahiliyah today is worse than Jahiliyah prior to 570 CE.
MadMac: Yours after I eat. |
| Trauntlabgirl | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 02:13 pm
Mad_Mac: To begin with, I didn't write the original article. It was posted by Madmullah, I just moved it while trying to organize things. So the credit goes to him.
Now, your first point about considering modest what I consider provocative, read what I wrote at the begining of my response to Galool. To give u a gist of what I'm saying, there is no coercion or compulsion in Islam. But once you take the responsibility of pronouncing the shahadhatayn (the two testimonies), then you have to abide by what that responsibity comes with. Yes, you should not want someone else determining for u what modesty is. But once you take the responsibility of Islam...i.e claiming islam, it is only logical that you follow the commandments...i'm sure you have things like that in the army. Isn't that one huge institution where someone else always determines for you what to do?
I'm glad you agree that mankind as a whole will always be greedy, agreesive and power hungary. And that no system (including the highly venerated Western one) is exceptional. For me, I would rather put my trust in systems where devine orders are in place and the one's that implement them know that they will one day stand before their creator and be answerable to him. As opposed to one where the implementors think that they will become fertilizer and have nothing that puts them incheck.
Mad_Mac: Expect no rebuttals for your response until monday night. That goes for you too galool. I have to wrestle with the biochemistry of membranes for the next 36+ hours :-) |
| MADMULAH | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 03:16 pm
Salaam,
T-Girl, I am writting a paper on women in the military during the Siad Barre regime, maybe you could direct me to resourcefull web-sites? Or about business-women during the Bare regime? |
| MADMULAH | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 04:20 pm
THE WOMAN'S STATUS IN CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM
This is comparing a woman's status as seen in Christianity and Islam. The
sources are mainly the Bible, Quran, and the teachings of Prophet
Muhammad(SAW).
According to Christianity;
(The Bible)
"When the woman (Eve) saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and
pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and
ate it. She also gave some to her husband (Adam), who was with her, and he
ate it...Then the man (Adam) and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he
was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God
among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are
you?" He (Adam) answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid
because I was naked; so I hid." And he (God) said, "Who told you that you were
naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
The man said, "The woman (Eve) you put here with me-she gave me some fruit
from the tree, and I ate it." Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this
you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." To the
woman he (God) said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with
pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he
will rule over you." To Adam he (God) said, "Because you listen to your wife and
ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all
the days of your life."
(Genesis 3:6-17)
Now Compare this with Islam;
(The Qur'an)
"O Adam! You and your wife dwell in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as
you wish: but do not approach this tree, or you run into harm and
transgression." "Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them (Adam and
Eve), bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from
them (before): he (Satan) said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest you
should become angels or such beings as live for ever." "And he (Satan) swore to
them both, that he was their sincere adviser." "So by deceit he brought about
their (Adam and Eve) fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became
manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden
over their bodies. And their Lord called to them: "Did I not forbid you that tree,
and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy to you?" "They said: "Our Lord!
We have wronged our own souls: if You do not forgive us and do not bestow
upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost"
(Quran 7:19-23) |
| MADMULAH | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 04:24 pm
Continuation of Status of women in Islam & in Christianity;
FEMALE GENDER VS. MALE GENDER
According to Christianity;
"...if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..." (Leviticus 12:2-5)
According to Islam;
"To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills." (Quran 42:49)
"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire."-- The Prophet Muhammad(SAW)
THE MENSES
According to Christianity;
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening." (Leviticus 15:19-23)
According to Islam;
Ali asked the Prophet Mohammed if when a man and a woman make love then their clothes stick to them from the sweat of their bodies, or if when a woman
has her period her clothes stick to her body, are the clothes considered unclean? The Prophet replied: "No, the uncleanness is only in the semen and the blood."--Prophet Muhammad(SAW) |
| MADMULAH | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 04:27 pm
A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO EDUCATION
According to Christianity;
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church." (Corinthians 14:34-35)
According to Islam;
"Seeking knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim man and Muslim woman."--Prophet Muhammad(SAW) |
| Trauntlabgirl | Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 06:28 pm
Asalaamu alaikum,
Madmullah: Sorry bro, I don't really know anything about Somalia... politics, government sytems or anything else for that matter. I would be interested in reading your paper though, if that is not a problem.
Before anyone else jumps up and says something, even a Somali born in mars is a Somali. So don't even go there pls. It is annoying when one has to constantly defend their somaliness :-(
By the way, Madmullah, could you please shorten my nick to TLG...that goes for you too Mad_Mac...there is another T-girl running around...no offense to the sister but I would hate to be confused with that character. |
| Arawelo | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 04:39 am
To the Muslims ( Please do nto attack me personally)
Let me ask you a question ( I have my own answer already so do not take it as i am asking you knowledge about islma)
I think whenerver we have discussion about women and we repeat rights......and sometimes you will see a tiny book that have the title women's right in Islam. To me some of the things are just apologetic, rights of women that Allah (SWT) give them cannot be shorten in a small leave let. The Quran and The hadiths have chabters on it, in addition there are generic words that used in the Quran that talks to men and women alike.
I also think here on the somalinet there is no need to repeat the samething I think the question should be do you think an islamic government if it comes to the power right now it would do good for the women. I f yes, tell me how, if not why not.
I also always wonder why whenever there is some announcement of being an islamic goverment i do not see any good image of that with reagrd to women.
I do not think i tottally beleive in whatever i read or hear but i am looking some other explanation rather than this commonly known of media distortion of islam. |
| ANON | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 07:16 am
ARAWELO---IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHEN PEOPLE REPEAT WHAT THE MUSLIM SCHOLARS WRITE ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF WOMAN'S RIGHTS IN ISLAM AND WHAT THE QURAN AND HADETH SAY ABOUT WOMAN, DON'T YOU THINK THEN THE SO CALLED ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT ALSO WILL DICARD AND WOULD NOT LIKE WHEN PEOPLE REPEAT WHAT THE MUSLIM SCHOLARS, THE QURAN AND HADETH SAYS ABOUT WOMAN'S RIGHTS SO THEY WOULD DENY WOMEN THIER RIGHTS? DO NOT HATE THE TRUTH IF IT IS BEEN REPEATED, ARAWELO. |
| Muslimsista | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 08:18 am
Atawelo:
It seems to me that U hate a lot of things that are being done now a days. I would suggest instead of complaining U should do something about because we don't need people coming in here pin pointing all the problems that they have with the posts if these posts are fine and are putting the message out their their is no need for criticism.
I would suggest U start a post that would benefit ur needs.
Please don't not take this as a personal attack I'm just feed up with ppl who are all about criticism.
if I have offended any1 please forgive me...anything good I have said is from Allah and anything Bad I have said is from ME.
salamz all |
| Abdi-Rizak | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 09:11 am
Salaam to all,
Sister TLG,
Ramadan Kareem! Well, I guess it is little too late to wish you that for it is almost half gone—what is it, the 14th day! It’s great to see you conveying message well delivered. Let me hope you the best of luck for your incoming exam on biochemistry of membranes. No offense, but the art guys won’t understand it. It ain’t about reading books or memorizing things. It is about figuring out how our biological systems work and function. So go girl; figure out how these membranes function. Well, I guess enough about that old story of art vs. science.
To Galool,
Thank you for expressing your ideas. I just wanted to make few points, or add my two cents to this ongoing discussion. First, I will agree with sister TLG that the practical interpretation of our declaration that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad being his messenger is indeed lacking. So, yes, the beauty of the Islamic system cannot be appreciated unless it takes a concrete form. Does this mean the system of Islam cannot work? Far from it. Without doubt, we posses a system that is perfect to the highest degree and which mankind does not know about, but once members of this ummah realize its significance and arrange their affairs according to it, not only will all rights be achieved but the whole world would look up to that group for justice in all spheres of life. Thus, it is we the Moslems who are sleeping giant that needs to wake up. This ummah of ours is an ummah that gets sick but never dies, a fundamental formula that can be applied in every generation.
You made points in regards to some Islamic practices; polygamy, inheritance, and family relationships. I think there are many books on these subjects and there is no need to repeat mentioning them here. Sister TLG also shed some light to it. My opinion, do some research and comparison of Islamic culture and responsibilities with the western values and you’d see the difference. Just as a quick example, in America we are individualistic society whereas the financial responsibility of the family befalls on both spouses. In other words, the family structure is different and thus the financial responsibility, as sister TLG pointed out. In mathematical or economic terms, it is net income versus gross-income. So, your arguments based on the 50th-50th thing lacks understanding of the Islamic culture and family unit. A seminar on the Islamic view of the family unit and financial responsibilities along with a quick economic lesson would have been helpful.
Then there was this argument you made about Islamic system being an “outdated” system. On the one hand, obviously you think that a system that is revealed by the All-Knowing, all foreseeing Allah can be outdated. On the other hand, you seem to not understand how Islamic standards are not determined by the environment and changing differences; rather they are fixed criteria above and beyond the difference in environments or changing status, while adjusted to fulfill the needs of every generation. If not so, then what does it mean for a thing to be divined?
Lastly, you made a point about a dilemma that today’s Muslim legislators face. I ask, what Muslim legislator? I thought you agreed the fact that there is no such thing as an Islamic state. If so, than what MUSLIM legislator are we talking about?
May I suggest two books which I think are helpful in understanding the Islamic prospective when it comes to secularism and the Islamic system? I hope this is okay. If so, here they are:
1)Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality. (Prof. John Esposito).
2)Milestones. (Sayyid Qutb).
Please do forgive me about the length of this post. I promise I’ll write short next time, if there is next time. Macasalaama to all.
P.S. Mad Mac, Major I thought we send you to Germany for the affairs of the state, but I see you spending quite a lot of time on the net. Should I contact the secretary of defense, your commander, or better yet my senator so that he might introduce some sort of legislation that requires all military personnel abroad to stay away from net discussions? Let me know what avenue you think is appropriate. Just joking. |
| Galool | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 10:25 am
TLG
Thanks for putting across your views as succinctly as ever. And no, I did not find your setting of the basic parameters of your faith insulting or patronising in anyway.
Let me calrify the last paragraph of my earlier argument. I said the prophet's views on this issue were revolutionary at the time. I was trying to put things into its proper historical context. If men were allowed to marry unlimited number of women, it would have been revolutionary to limit the number to four. If baby girls were buried alive (as was common at the time) then it must have been positively liberal not only to ban that barbaric practise, but to allow women a modicum of rights like inheritance rights. My suggestion was, the Prophet would have liked this process to continue, and for women to eventually gain full equality.
But of course, if you believe that all of these things have been set in place by Allah, and are therefore inviolable, the issue is not open to discusion, from that point of view, is it?
Right, wrong or conjecture are all irrelevant. personally, I find that rather sad.
You see I do not mind(I am sure you know this by now) if my views clash with religious edicts. I try to contextualize them and see the reason behind them. But then that is me.
Abdi-rizak
I havn't seen your postings before. Are you new to this forum? welcome. Some good points there. |
| MAD MAC | Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 10:00 pm
MadMullah
How can you write "According to Christianity..." Christianity is no monolithic. That's why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I don't know a single Christian who believes if he touches a woman when she's menstruating he is unclean until evening. Come on. If I've told you guys once i've told you a million times, the Bible is generally believed to be divinely inspired by most Christians - not divine. Any thinking human can see it has too many conflicts to be considered a perfect document. |
| Arawelo | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 12:51 am
anyn and muslimsis,
stop assuming things there is nothing suggesting that i hate anything but i suggested that since we know this facts there is no need to repeat it. i am sure if there is an islamic gover there would not need a leavelet that talks about woman's rights they should know better.
i asked a question that i think it is valid one.
why do you ignore it.
islam should not be theory but practice.
i did not say i have anything with the post!!11 |
| concerned sister | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 08:40 am
Sisters stop picking on Arawelo she can be a good Muslim. I do not think she said anything that we disagree so far. this is really trouble. |
| arawelo | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 10:01 am
Concerned siter
thanks for the thought, i do not think i am offended by anyone here. it is okey they can disagree with me and i always say that the thruth my knowlegde of islma is very limited and that i do not have hijab, i even earlier posted that i had hijab but i wa sjust kiding. today i had a very good day at work that i amde lot of jokes. anyway sister i will only refrain here when i think my sister would not like or islamicaly is not good other wise i ahve been dealing with poeple sinc ei was 17 through writng no problem. i hate only when i have to talk as i am not good speaker in fack i do not speak that much. i wish i could .
arawelo |
| Trauntlabgirl | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 10:12 am
Salaam to all,
Arewllo: Good to see ya sis. Tell me was that hijab thing in the other folder for real? if so, maasha Allah, i'm happy for you sis.
About the question you posed concerning an Islaamic government and how it will deal with women, I'm hoping if they are following true Islam and are sincere in their efforts to please Allah, then they wouldn't deny us our rights. Ofcourse this will require that we, the women know our rights as legislated in the Quran and the sunnah. It is kind of difficult to know that you are being denied something when you don't even know the essence of that something, don't you think?
About repeating things here on Somalinet or on leaf lets, I think it is only fair that we repeat the rights that were given to women in Islam so that our girls/women will finally get through thier heads that they are not oppressed. This is because, others have repeated the notion that we are oppressed enought times to the point most of us muslim women now beleive that we are oppressed by Islam. It is all psychological. You know how they say, if someone tells you enough times you are stupid, next time u make a mistake you will actually start wondering if you are indeed stupid?
Abdirazaq: Ramadhan kareem to you too (is that how one responds?) Welcome to this side of the somalinet world. Hey what happened to that "education for girls" discussion in Schoolnet forum? |
| MADMULAH | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 10:31 am
MAD MAC,
"How can I write?" Why wouldn't I write it? I am comparing the rights of women in Islam and comparing them with those give to them in other religions and in this case I picked Christianity. So, what's wrong with me doing so?
DRESSING MODESTY/HEAD COVERING
According to Christianity;
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head"
(Corinthians 11:3-6)
"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God" (Timothy 2:9-10)
According to Islam;
"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is
Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 33:59)
"...they (believing women) should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their
fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women...or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex..." (Quran 24:31)
What's the conclusion here? That Islam regardless of what many claim isn't the only religion that says women should dress modestly. There's a reason behind everything Islam commands. And there is a perfectly sensible reason why Islam says women should dress modestly.
I am a Muslim woman and I enjoy all the benefits that come with being a Muslim woman. I cover my body, because I choose to do so, not because I am ordered to do so. Today, I see many Muslim ladies that run around with their body uncovered, and frankly speaking that is their business. Islam is a religion of choice and we all make our choices in life. It's the duty of every Muslim to educate and spread the truth of Islam, but it's not every Muslim's duty to abuse Islam and do things to others in the name of Islam, in other words to take the law in to their own hands.
The prophet Muhammad(SAW) was a very respectful humanbeing that respected all humans. He was a just man and encouraged all of his followers to be just.
Is there anything wrong with a Muslim lady covering her body? No! They enjoy the same benefits as those that don't cover. Just because a woman covers her body, does it mean that she can not get a PH.D.? Is she physically going to become challenged? NO! A covered woman is in every aspect the same as the one who doesn't cover. The only difference is that one chooses to cover up and conserve her privacy, while the other one doesn't see it that way!
It's amazing the West's obsession with the veil. And that is clearly a sign of ignorance. If I am walking down the street and see a Sikh man with his turban, who am I to mock his cultural and religious practices? People of the West claim to be "civilized", yet when a veiled woman walks down a street in Paris or even New York, there are whispers and glances. Yes, many people don't look, but many do, I've seen it. Some even have the audicy to ask moronic questions such as "Don't you feel hot in there?" |
| Arawelo | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 10:52 am
Mad mullah,
you said it evry well ( i thought you were a man) any way. Okey, the Hijab si comman of Allah that we all have to fiful it, and to fulfil that abligation it must be apersonal choice, and of course must come from your heart. no problem, but my sister I ahve this problem with the muslim men particulary somalimen. I had conversations woth some of them all they told me was that that my place is at home, that i should not botter to study politics etc. ( there is also one day that i have attended an islamic talk given by somali sheiks, i will not say the Q& A now) but one of the qustion nthat asked and the Asw put me off ( not from islam) but of course I felt the sheikh at least did not give a reasonable answer ( I can be wrong again) you see I do not like of course Prof Samatar and his followers ( if he ever has ) to rule Soamlai. But i am concerned if RIGHt now we are rearly ready for islamic govern. all what could happen is that all these kind of poeple would take advantage of that and Re-interpretate the quran the way they want and that is BLOODY FAILURE.
wasalm |
| Galool | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 12:07 pm
Madmullah
Why did I associate your username with masculinity? It proves how we can all make assumptions. Please don't feel insulted.
You seem to be saying that Christianity and Islam have similar views on the issue of women's rights(or the lack of it)
Both faiths emerged within few hundred miles of each other, Muhammed only proclaimed Islam after visting Sham(today's Syria, Jordan, Palestine and Lebanon) which were humming with this new(ish) religion at the time, - Do you see where I am going, only-too-Sane Mad-Mullah?
Talk to you after Ramadan. |
| Trauntlabgirl | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 12:26 pm
Galool: I do (not that you asked me. The road to damnation, the traintracks to hell( the thoughts, i'm refering to). Why wait till Ramadhan(a question you haven't answered since the "two questions" folder)? see you then. |
| Trauntlabgirl | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 12:28 pm
Mad_Mullah, sis, why didn't you correct me when I called you bro? I'm afraid I also fell victim of the assumption disease...my apology. |
| Idea | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 01:08 pm
Mad-Mullah,
Maa-shaa-allah. Can't find words that describes the happiness that i feel. May Allah bless you and your family in the two Daareen. |
| MADMULAH | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 01:10 pm
Assalamu Aleikum!
Arawelo,
Islam is different from Muslims. Islam is a culture, a belief system, a way of life, Islam isn't only about rules and sins. Islam gives many rights to women which are denied to them by arrogant and ignorant so-called Muslims.
For instance, in many Arab countries, there are laws which have nothing to do with Islam, laws that date back to the Jahilliya period before the Prophet(SAW). Laws and customs which are alien to Islam. These laws are still practised today and it is these laws mixed in with abusing Islam that are used to deny their rights.
Islam promotes education for women just as it promotes it for men. The Prophet(SAW) encouraged Muslims(both men and women) to seek education and to even go as far as China in search of education.
Now, the issue about women staying at home. Ever heard of the saying "Home is where the heart is."? Anyway, Home is where the children are and children need their mother more than anything else, so it isn't so bad if the woman stays at home to take care of her kids. But if she chooses to work and go to the office, she can do that too, you see Islam is all about choice. Islam tells you what to do and then it is up to you to decide.
Today, times have changed many Muslim ladies are going to school, getting their degrees and working for leading companies and even starting their own companies. So, I encourage you to study Islam for yourself and to not belief the none-sense many ignorant individuals are filling in young girl's heads. Education is Light. It's the only thing women have to liberate themselves. When I say Education, I am not only talking about Wordily Knowledge, but also to seek knowledge of Islam.
I understand what your fears are, today there are countries such Saudi Arabia which claims to be a Muslim country that follows the Shari'a. But is that really true? No, it isn't. Saudi Arabia is blessed, let's not forget it is where our Prophet Muhammad(SAW) came from, but what about their leadership? Their leadership is not a representative of Islam. They're a Kingdom, and clearly that's a Big Violation of Islam. Yet, they deny women to do the simplest of the things.
Walaal, it is your duty as a Muslimah to seek the great knowledge of Islam. Only when you know about Islam will you be able to make clear judgements!
AWW |
| MADMULAH | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 01:17 pm
Galool,
Don't feel awkward that you mistook me with a man. It's a common mistake and it really doesn't bother me the least bit.
Now, about what you said:
"Both faiths emerged within few hundred miles of each other, Muhammed only proclaimed Islam after visting Sham(today's Syria, Jordan, Palestine and Lebanon) which were humming with this new(ish) religion at the time,..."
I really couldn't confirm it because I don't know of it myself. I'll have to research it and get back with you about it.
"Do you see where I am going, only-too-Sane Mad-Mullah?"
No, I don't see it, could you please Spell-it-out for me? I don't want to assume anything!
Thanks. |
| MADMULAH | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 01:23 pm
Assalamu Aleikum!
TLG,
Don't worry about it Walaal! I chose MadMulah because the British used to call Sayid Muhammad Abdulle Hassan, a Mad Mullah because he was opposed to their colonialism. You see, if you speak to people of the West about Islam or if you even disprove or rebell against them, they think you must be Mad, so I am just using it as an oxy-moron!
AWW |
| MADMULAH | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 01:24 pm
Idea,
Jazzaka-lah!
AWW |
| MAD MAC | Monday, December 11, 2000 - 10:49 pm
MadMullah
The reason that Sayid Muhammed Abdullah Hassan got that name was because his dervishes were suicidal. A funny charecter, the Mad One. He could see some things chystal clear but allowed his faith to be taken to extreme. Over 1/3 of all Somalis in Northern Somalia died during his "reign". I've got a great quote from him I'll post tommorrow. You'll get a kick out of it.
I thought you were a dude to. I mean, Sayid was.
As for the endless quotes, don't get trapped in that. Like I said, the Bible is not the Christian equivelant of the Qur'an but for a few rockheads. Most people recognize the Bible as an historical document; a collection of first and second hand accounts that are neccessarily not completely accurrate. Unlike the Qur'an, which Muslims believe was given directly from God to Muhamed, the Bible was written over thousands of years by different prophets AND witnesses (who were not prophets themselves - such as the apostles of Jesus). So you can not quote the Bible and say "This is what Christians Believe" with any degree of accurracy. Because many Christians disregard certain teachings of the Bible. Remember Christianity is not a way of life in the sense that Islam is. There is no Christian version of Sharia nor are there Christian property laws, etc. The Bible has value when taken as a whole - when you look at the intent of the message. It has much less value when you try to dissect it. It is a book which reflects the different eras and the different prophets about whom it is written. FYI I grew up in a Christian household but I reject Christian teaching that Jesus is the son of God. I believe Jesus was a Prophet. There are Christian fundamentalists who do believe the Bible is not only divinely inspired but in fact divine. But these people are not held in high regard by mainstream Christianity. |
| Arawelo | Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 07:48 am
Mad Mullah,
thanks fot he reply sister. But one more question if can I ask; why the same events comes back. if we look at groups, governments etc we see the same things coming back. Is there something else wrong, you could thik of? |
