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     | Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 03:45 pm Assalam Alaikum I would like everyone to understand and read this.....it is very important A friend of mine sent it to me and i would like to share it with everyone Punishment for not offering prayers!! Hadith of Prophet(P.B.U.H) The one who disdains the prayers will receive fifteen punishments from Allah.Six punishments in lifetime, three while dying, three in the grave and three on the Day of Judgement. The six punishments of life: 1. Allah takes away blessings from his age (makes his life misfortunate) 2. Allah does not accept his plea(Du'aa) 3. Allah erases the features of good people from his face. 4. He will be detested by all creatures on earth. 5. Allah does not award him for his good deeds.(No thawab) 6. He will not be included in the Du'aa of good people. The three punishments while Dying: 1. He dies humiliated. 2. He dies hungry. 3. He dies thirsty.Even if he drinks the water of all seas he will still be thirsty. The three punishments in the Grave: 1. Allah tightens his grave until his chest ribs come over each other. 2. Allah pours on him fire with embers. 3. Allah sets on him a snake called "the brave","the bold" which hits him from morning until afternoon for leaving Fajr prayer,from the afternoon until Asr for leaving Dhuhr prayer and so on.With each strike he sinks 70 yards under the ground. The three punishments on the Day of Judgement: 1. Allah sends who would accompany him to hell pulling him on the face. 2. Allah gives him an angry look that makes the flesh of his face fall down. 3. Allah judges him strictly and orders him to be thrown in hell. May Allah(swt) give guidance to all of us. (Ameen) Wassalam Alaikum.
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| | Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 06:15 pm Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu I received this email as well. I enquired about it, and was told that it is a weak hadeeth - wallahu 'alam. Fee amanillah Wassalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu Your sister in Islam
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| | Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 11:20 pm Wether it's a weak Ahadith or not there is no doubt that the foundation of our faith is The Prayer, therefore their is no need to neglect or deviate from a Ahadith which encourages us to hold fast to the foundation of our faith. We are quick to dismiss a warning as weak or not authentic but aren't we slack on missing a prayer? If the prayer is in doubt then the whole concept and core of our worship is on shaky ground. Wa bilaahi Towfiiq.
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| | Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 04:30 am Babilon. Assalaamu caleykum. Yes, prayer is the foundation. You have a point right there. As much as "stranger" has another good point. there is hadith in bukhari narrated by Anas like this; "Volume 1, Book 3, Number 108: Narrated Anas: The fact which stops me from narrating a great number of Hadiths to you is that the Prophet said: "Whoever tells a lie against me intentionally, then (surely) let him occupy his seat in Hell-fire." and in the same chapter also: "Volume 1, Book 3, Number 109: Narrated Salama: I heard the Prophet saying, "Whoever (intentionally) ascribes to me what I have not said then (surely) let him occupy his seat in Hell-fire." So, if the Sahabi was worried about narrating a hadith he knew about what about one no one knows who narrated it?. I don't mean to give an excuse someone who doesn't pray or leaves the prayer intentionally. I understand your concern, let us not forget that hadiths should be treated according to the rules. What is weak is weak although it might be saying something we like. Now, I don't know if the Hadith is weak or not. A cousin of mine who lives in pakistan sent it to me once, long time ago and I sent back an e-mail asking where I could find the hadith. In which book and he didn't know it. So I left it the way it is. If you can research about the one who leaves prayer intentionally and what is the rule about him/her would be really great and beneficial. Sorry babilon, don't mean to be unreasonable. Hope you don't mind.
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| | Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 05:11 am I do not know if this hadith is week or not. If it is week (very) then it should be avoided. There is are some scholars who say it is ok to use weak Ahadith to encourage certain actions., Imam An-Nawawi's is one such scholar (May Allah have mercy on him). Their say is based on Imam Ahmed bin Hambel saying. It is correct that imam Ahmed did say this. At the time of imam Ahmed the science of hadith had not evolved to the state it reached, lets say at Trimidi’s time. At imam Ahmed time a hadith was ether weak or sahih. There was nothing in between. So dear, brothers many ahadith that were weak, were actually hassan or hassanun sahih or worse like fabricated. We should keep in mind what Imam Ahmed said and what were the circumstances he said it under. He meant its ok to use the not so weak ahadith, which at his time was da’ef and in our time they would be called hassan. There are many scholar who say that a da’ef hadith may not be used for anything. There are also some like Imam Nawawi who say they (not so weak ahahdith) may be used (in some circumstances). It is not as Iman Nawawi states, ‘there is a consensus that states its ok to use weak ahadith for Fada’il a’mal’. No ikhwan there is no such consensus. The house is divided! and lets leave it at that. Personally…I prefer to staying on the safe side because of what brother FG has already stated above.
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| | Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 05:15 am PS: If you’ll are interested to find out more about the scholars that oppose using weak Ahadith read the good commentary on Imam nawawi’s 40 Ahadaith.
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| | Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 04:49 pm A/aleykum, Point taken but point not proven beyond pondering, I say this FG for several reasons. I certainly agree that some Ahadith are basically baseless. It's sad that the History of Ahadith is littered with bewilderment of the printed message which has passed many centuries and countless hands. They are filled with conjectural, fallible and most strikingly shrewd fallacious facts, but FG that does not equip as to duck every Ahadith that preaches the steadfastness of our faith for the meager reason of not certain of it's authenticity. To transgress the very word of our Prophet(SAW) is nothing short of treachery and it should be avoided come what may. On the same token one should not turn a blind eye to the warnings and clear signs, when in the Quran and many authentic Ahadith are proven beyond the shadow of doubt that prayer is the corner stone of our faith. For that reason we are obliged to accept any narration or in this case Ahadith that not only strengthens that foundation but paints a vivid consequences should one choose to deviate from the straight path. We all are immersed in an ocean of interpretations but that should not hinder us to fulfill our obligation of holding our faith in this trying times, times when our Prophet(SAW) warned holding to your faith will be like holding to a burning coal. Infidels are penetrating to the hearts of the Ummah through the pen, the print media is a powerful weapon that is waged and used against the present Muslims and the future of this Ummah. Sadly many are fallen victim to their satanically guided all out war. It's times like this when we should avoid jumping to the wagon of "blame and be superior to your peers" if Ahadith instructs you to uphold the five pillars of Islam why should we peek to it's authenticity when it's clear we are Muslims only when we uphold those VERY five pillars. In fact any Ahadith that preaches or indicates of deviating from that path should be dismissed and labeled not only weak put conjectural.... Wa bilaahi Towfiq
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| | Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 09:08 pm Asalaam Alaykum Dear brother Babilon, I understand what you are saying but, I have to disagree with you. I do not think rejecting a fabricated hadith will lesson the importance of Salah. Allah has preserved our deen for us buy way of the quran and authentic sunnah. Akhi are you suggesting that we accept the words of a liar, as the words of the rasool? Is there nothing in the Authentic Sunnah that explains to us the importance of salah or its status? Akhi alAziz the authentic sunnah is filled with warnings, encouragements, prohibitions and obligations with regards to salah. I also think that you’ve misunderstood FG’s point. He does not duck Ahadith that preach steadfastness. Subhan Allah. “Treachery” with regards to the Prophets words can only be identified by means of Authenticity (chains of narration). Encouraging steadfastness does not need the support of a liar (weak hadith). Without disrespecting you akhi, I see your argument as encouraging the use of weak hadith and not steadfastness. I hope there is a limit to the amount of weakness you are willing to accept before you reject a hadith. It would seem (from your words) you are willing to accept the narration by a hypocrite about, lets say, praying on new years X number of rakahs and we the Muslims will get such and such reward. This encourages Salah but it’s a lie. I do not want to put words in your mouth but this is what I’m getting. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I hope I misunderstood you akhi. Also akhi I think that our problems do not arise from rejecting weak ahadith but from implementing weak ahadith in the place of authentic ahadith. You will find the authentic Sunnah to be more then sufficient, we do not practice a 10th of this Authenic sunnah. How do you advocate a weak hadith when the authentic is not implemented or at times rejected? We live in strange times, Akhi. Allah Knows best THE FOLLOWING AHADITH ABUNDANTLY DEMONSTRATE THE IMPORANCE OF SALAH AND THE EVILS OF LEAVING IT OFF. Feel free to use them to your hearts content. Also there is a difference of opinion about abandoning salah and kurf. However these hadith show the importance of salah and may be used for this purpose (at the very least). Your last sentence is confusing brother. Any “hadith” that encourages the abandonment of salah is by definition weak! It is a true sentence and Alhamdulilah the science of Hadith has taken that into account. Let us show a little confidence in it. Our noble scholars of the past spent their lifes purifying the Sunnah. May Allah reward them with Junnah. Prophet (sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) said, "Between a person and kufr (disbelief) and shirk (associating partners with Allaah) is the abandonment of the prayer." This was recorded by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh And he, mentioning the prayer, said (which means): If anyone keeps to it, it will be light, evidence and salvation for him on the Day of Resurrection. But if anyone does not keep to it, it will not be light, evidence and salvation for him on the Day of Resurrection, and on that Day he will be associated with Qaroon, Pharaoh, Namaan and Ubayy bin Khalaf (an enemy of Islaam from among the Quraysh). [Ahmad, Tabaraanee, Ibn Hibbaan] And he said (which means): If anyone abandons prayer deliberately then he has no claim upon Allaah. [Ibn Maajah, ADAB-AL-MUFRAD of Bukhaari, Tabaraani] And he also said (which means): What lies between a man and disbelief is the abandonment of prayer. [Muslim, Aboo Dawood, Nasaa'ee] The Prophet said (which means): The covenant between us and them is prayer, so if anyone abandons it he has become a disbeliever. [Ahmad, Tirmidhee, Nasaa'ee] · When `Alee was asked about a women who did not pray, he said: "The one who does not pray is a disbeliever." [Tirmidhee, Haakim] · Ibn Mas`ood (R) said: "The one who abandons the prayer has no religion." [Muhammad bin Nasr Al Mirwazee] · Ibn `Abbaas (R) said: "The one who leaves off a single prayer deliberately will find, when he meets Allaah Most High, that He (T) is angry with him." [Muhammad bin Nasr Al-Mirwazee, Ibn Abdul-Barr] The Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam, said: Whoever misses the `Asr prayer, it is as if he has lost his family and wealth. [Related by al-Bukhaaree (2/30), Muslim (626) and others, from the hadeeth of Ibn `Umar, radiyallaahu `anhu.] We were with Buraidah in a battle on a cloudy day, and he said: Be early with the `Asr prayer, for the Prophet said: Whoever leaves the `Asr prayer, then his actions will be invalidated. [Related by al-Bukhaaree (2/31,66), Ahmad (5/349-450, 357, 360,361), al-Bayhaqee (1/444), al-Baghawee in Sharh us-Sunnah (329), and others.] Once a man asked the Prohpet (peace be upon him) about the most virtuous deed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) stated that the most virtuous deed is the prayer. The man asked again and again. The first three times, the Prophet (peace be upon him) again answered, "The prayer," then on the fourth occasion he stated, "Jihad in the way of Allah." [This is form a hadith recorded by Ahmad and ibn Hibban "The first matter that the slave will be brought to account for on the Day of Judgment is the prayer. If it is sound, then the rest of his deeds will be sound. And if it is bad, then the rest of his deeds will be bad." [Recorded by al-Tabarani.
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| | Monday, February 05, 2001 - 06:14 am A/aleykum , JB I wish you understood me the way I did and grasped you thoughtfull comments. What you just covered is an agreement with what I said but in greater detail may Allah(SWT) reward you for that effort. We are debating a very essential part of our faith and may Allah(SWT) keep us focused and free from the evil ways of muddling and polluting topics as I have witnessed in this forum. If you care to scroll back and read the first sentence of my previous comment you will give me the benefit of the doubt that I, in anyway meant to take or encourage others to take any weak or wrong narration of the VERY word of our Prophet(SAW). Sadly you disregarded all that comment and asked if I am willing to accept new years praying of X rakah of numbers cause it encourages prayer, brother/sister if your not muddling words or diverting from the topic in hand I didn't give any signal or comment towards accepting such fabricated Ahadith, in fact I rightly labeled some Ahadith as fallacious and baseless, the one you mention falls into that category. I can give you numerous examples but it will seem like diverting from the topic. I didn't accuse of FG ducking Ahadith cause I agreed with him/her, again in my first few sentences, but mentioned the ducking just to drive a point home, JB when was the last time you were involved in a debate or discusion, don't take everything said as personal when the intention is the opposite. One of the miracles of the survival of the Quran is how it was preserved, and the reason is not cause of the printing era, but be it stayed unchanged and weathered all storms cause it was memorized and preserved in the ever green minds of the faithfully. Sadly it wasn't the case for the Ahadith. You mentions Bukhari in you comments but you will be amazed how that is been polluted, some Bukhari & Muslim books have Ahadiths which are not even fit to print let alone practice what they preach. Again this takes us back to those who leave their beds every morning with one thing and only one thing in mind to dilute the sources of thought and teaching of this Ummah. What really takes place is blasphemy and I can sadly assure a lot of well intention people with good in their heart are falling victim to their evil schemes. JB don't look any further than you next door neighbor. How many Muslims do u know that u diver with their concept of Islam, one of the warnings of Our Prophet(SAW) is the division that will befall his(SAW) Ummah. I am not sure of the exact number but we will divide to 72 or 73 sections, how did Iblis achieve this, by getting access to the teachings and practices of our faith, due to worldly reasons some of the Ullema are divided, in fact the division is so wide we they consider each other foes rather than facing the sworn foe of Mankind. So where are we(layman) if our Ulema are preaching different views of Islam. Lets not aspire for meager points of out doing one another, take the good of what your brother or sister is trying to portray or convey and blame on his/her shortcoming on Iblis, cause honestly some people post some well intended messages and in no time someone mis-interpretes or mis-understands and thus result in defaming the whole concept of the message. I saw a page in here that was dedicated to the "favorite Sura" and down the end someone was talking about Al-itahad, Hizbollah etc etc, leaves you wondering the intention of that person and leaves you pondering on what political parties and "favorite Sura" have in common. Anyway JB I take your points and accept them please bear in mind my intention towards FG was beneficial toward to the common good not to be-little or defame his/her comments. Till then fii amaani Laah.
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| | Monday, February 05, 2001 - 08:28 am Asalaamu Alaykum dear brother Babilon. I don’t know what to say, akhi. I am not here to debate you on any Issue. I view you as a Muslim brother and not as an enemy. I don’t know where your going with your words but as I stated earlier, there is no need to use weak ahadith to strengthen the foundation of salah or any other good deed. I agree with your first few sentenses but im afraid i disagree some of the rest. I am talking about a need. You are talking about an obligation ( as you say obliged) to accept certain weak Ahadith. I do not consider this or any other matter as an obligation unless what Allah and the Rasool (PBUH) have made it an obligation on us. Every hadith is and should be and is classified regardless of its content. If the content is already established in the other sources of Islam, then let us use them. If you are of the understanding that it is ok to practice a weak hadith if virtuous deeds are concerned, then this is fine akhi. As some scholars hold. But Obliged? and steadfastness? I don’t agree with the implication that not using it will erode the foundation of salaah or other virtuous deeds. I also see no NEED to use a lie (weak hadith) to proliferate the good. There is a difference of opinion and this does not make us or other Muslims enemies. Akhi, im not sure what your other comments have to do with implementing or rejecting weak Ahadith. The Quran was written down at the time of the sahaba and Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) saw the wisdom in writing and make numerous copies of the quran. Allah preserved the Quran in the hearts of the believers and in theirs pens (the printing press was not available at that time). The Ahadith were also written down at the time of the rasool and the Sahaba (also memorized). I do not know where you are going with rejecting (or discrediting) print but I fear the implications. It is a different topic non-the less. Also akhi please forgive me for using the example of salaah and new year, it was more of a request for clarification. I disagree (I think) with your comments about Bukhari. I don’t want to express my understanding of your words because I may put words in your mouth. Bukhari is acceptable to all the Muslim scholars. Also, akhi I do not advocate hatred between Muslims. The Sahaba had a difference of opinion on many things and they did not hate each other. I do not see what most of your comments have to do with the weakness of ahadith? Unless you are saying that rejecting weak ahadith adds to our disunity or that printing or not printing weak ahadith is related to accepting or rejecting weak Ahadith. You have managed to completely confuse me. Akhi, if you have another topic in mind open a new folder and those interested (not me) will join in. If I'm not mistaken MAd Mac talks about Al-itihad. He is a non muslim. Perhaps you mean to say no harm in accepting weak ahadith and not obligated. It is funny how these weak Ahadith have managed to almost completely overshadow authentic hadith in certain types of books. Allah knows best.
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| | Monday, February 05, 2001 - 08:25 pm Assalaamu caleykum. Brother Babilon. I am a "HE", Sorry for the mix up the anonymous user name caused. I told you that you have a point. The only thing I wouldn't do personally is use a hadith that is not placed in the category of useable hadiths. The reason is simple, the prophet pbuh said that no one would ascribe to him intentioanlly something he didn't say. We have to stop at every hadith and make sure the validity of it. If we can't find any of the qualifications that make a hadith narratable, I think we will make a mistake by ascribing that hadith to the prophet. As far as the usage of weak hadiths is concerned, Brother JB gave you a good reference and who says what about the issue. Let us not see what is not written in our discussions. I think we CAN BENEFIT FROM A BROTHER LIKE YOU. Be cool saxib. JB. I benefitted from your post inwhich you gave the scholars and their different opinions regarding the usage of weak hadiths. The best way to learn something is to acquire as much opinions as one can get on a given matter so that he/she becomes well informed. Thanks.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:23 am A/aleykum Hi "single letter" siblings are you two related in anyway, you gave me the urge to call my brother for a helping hand(just joking). But, seriously respected brothers and sisters in Islam we are talking about the same concept of Islam but using different avenues to reach our conclusion, and perhaps that's why their is a confusion in some comments here. Back to the drawing board or should we say back to basics. Their are three types of Hadiths, authentic, weak and fabricated. I reckon by mixing fabricated and weak a lot of folks tend to stray from the facts. Weak by no means is a lie, it's called weak cause the chain of narration dwindles as it approaches the proximity of the era of the Sahaba, mostly the ulema discourage using this Hadith, but in some cases refer to it though they don't fail to mention it's weakness. On the other hand the fabricated one is sadly rampant and common among the layman and that's the one the ulema with such vigore preach against the usage of it. It's been fabricated to the extent of seeming like an authentic one but with a message of such venom. It penetrates through the mind of the layman and like a venom takes it's affect after it hits the target, by that time the damage has been done and one generation of strayed community passes to another. The wide and different views of the sects of the Ummah originated from this Hadiths, you go to any major sect and they will have no quarrel when it comes to the Quran, but the Hadiths is where they choose to pick their different path. FG, thanks for the kind words, I hope our aim is to enlighten one another and not to litter each others thoughts and veiws. JB, u made several comments and if I choose to answer all of them it will signal a diversion of the topic in hand. But let me take one comment u made about the ummah not having hatred among themselves, JB sad to inform u but the biggest hatred or conflict occurred between those closest to the Prophet(SAW). Since this is a public forum I don't need to go to details but u know the case I am talking about. I brought this up just to notify u it wasn't or ain't all rosy and smiles, wish it was but it's not. The other major handicap we have is we get our sources from the Saudi Kingdom. A kingdom that stands on the foundation the Prophet(SAW) abolished. Abu Sufyan's Kingdom and all other Kingdoms came to halt when Islam took it's place in the Desert and all through out the world. In a perfect Islamic society the ruler doesn't descend to the throne through the womb but earns it through good virtue and hard work. Since we are on Hadiths, one major Hadith caused an uproar in the Islamic schools of thought. The Hadith says "the biggest Jihad is the jihadul NAFSI" another section says that's not the case, the biggest Jihad is the one u get slained in the battle feild fighting for your faith. We can discuss those two versions of Hadiths till the cows come home. But the point is the system is polluted beyond believe. The printing era was confined to the Quran, that's why u have the complete text in one volume, while I can't say the same about the Hadiths. The most circulated book of Hadith is a meager one called 40 Hadiths, 40!!. Even the volumes they have with those interested to get the full picture doesn't come close to all the Hadiths that was inherited from the Sahaba. The hadiths are sayings and teachings of the Prophet(SAW). The volumes they have doesn't come close to covering all those Hadiths, it's just simply not enough. The reason is deeper than u can fathom. Their is a lot of politics involved. We have as the keepers of the holy sites a Kingdom that stands against the route the Prophet(SAW) paved for this Ummah. They have 'MUDAWACIIN' that cain people to the mosque, when the Quran directs us "THEIR IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION". Caining the masses when u rule them in Un-Islamic way, what a paradox!!. JB u should know this more than I do since u kept using Arabic remarks in ur rebuttal. By caining people one will think that it's crystal clear up in the throne, but take a peak at it and U will see a corrupt and power hungry clan unleashing it's domain on the poor masses. Even the name of the country should be a concern. It's named after the so called founder of that nation-- al suad. Does anyone know what it was called before this worldly dominated era. You must be wondering where I am heading with this, I am trying to paint how polluted our system is, not the faith cause Alhamdulilaah Islam will be protected not by people but by our Creator Allah(SWA), but the system is polluted by people who have one thing in mind, POWER. Just by taking one glance at our state of affairs u will be convinced beyond doubt. All this division is created for one purpose only, to divide and rule. One Ummah united under the banner of Islam as it was and should be, will not tolerate the mayhem that is taking place in our places of worship. But to spread the confusion and division they have taken a different route to control and contain and sadly that route includes the books of thought, since they don't dare touch the Quran, they had and having a field day with the Hadiths of our Prophet(SAW). Wa bilaahi Towfiiq
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:07 am Asalamu Alaykum dear brother Bailon, I am very saddened by what you have to say. I am not the most paranoid or, for that matter, most naïve person on this forum. I’m also not a big fan of conspiracy theories ether. I used to live in al Hijaz and in spite of that I don’t feel as you do. You can choose to blame them (their scholars, rulers and people), you can choose to hate them, to accuse them for the downfall of Islam and the Muslim. I have had this discussion with others and I have found no Barakah in it. As far as I’m concerned I look at thing in relation to what have we Muslims done to deserve these rulers. Not only in Hijaz but in all the muslim countries. It is truly amazing what people think the Saudi oil money can do! I have heard misguided Muslim (mainly Pakistani) say hey, the books you are quoting from are printed in Saudi Arabia! And I say no in Egypt, (some in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and some in Pakistan) and then they say, these dam Saudis, their oil money is paying for the printing of these ‘lies’! And I tell them Akhi, the book was printed in 1974 or in the 70’s Saudi Arabia was not a rich country at that time. This is usually a Pakistani (intellectuals, the rest don’t care for proofs) mode of thinking. This is understandable because, without putting, them down all their argument lack scholarly and textual backing. So they accuse the Arabs (especially Saudis and their oil) for this. If I’m not mistaken this is Nuh Kellers mode of thinking. People will believe what they want. We have gone off on a tangent back to the hadith I am happy that you do not agree with the use of fabricated (Maudu) ahadith. Thank you for the clarification. While your explanation about weak hadith is right, it is not always as benign as you assume. A hadith may also be classified as weak due to one of the narrator occasionally lying. This is different from a Maudu hadith which is reported buy a person who is a “fulltime lyer”. I also told you that Imam ahmed made his comment about the use of weak hadith at a time when there was only two classifications of hadith. Sahih and da’if. The sahih is what we call sahih now and da’if was the rest (hasan, da’if and maudu) not mention any other type of classification. Most scholars understand Imam Ahmed’s comments to mean its ok to use Hasan and not what we call da’if now a days. This can be proven by other comments Imam Ahmed made. If you still insist in using da’if then I find no major fault with that. On a more serious note akhi, I will never believe that the sahaba hated each other! All is not rosey but the sahaba all were sincere in their love of Islam and each other. as I said akhi it's ok to have a difference of opinion but a muslim can not hate a muslim. This is much more true for the sahaba. Please reconsider your statement about the sahaba atleast. I have to rush for class. Allah knows best
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:54 am Assalaamu caleykum. Brother Babilon. We are all males both "I" and "JB". No need to have an urge to call your brother since we are not united against you lol. I personally expressed my opinoin and how I would treat hadiths. Also, a given country is not what we base something islamic to be correct or not. We must have proof from islam to agree or disagree with a matter.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 12:28 pm A/aleykum brothers, JB, I'm not discrediting what the Saudi layman or man in the street is upto, most of them are in a dilema that they can't escape from because of their rulers. They have turned the clock back to the days of monarchy Kingmanship which was common in pre-Islamic era, do I blame the local people certainly not, the blame does not lie in their feet but rather at those who neglected the tradition set by our Prophet(SAW). Through the barrel of the gun they raped the country of it's rich heritage. After Hijaz was abolished it has been a down ward trend for the people of that blessfull soil, and I can't ignore the error you have made when u said Saudia was a poor nation till 1970. If you pay a visit to the History books you will discover contrary to what you have and Saudia was emerging even with 30% agreement with the British as a major power in the Arab Peninsula. Oil was found by Britain in a Saudi soil around 1920, they went into a contract with the Colonial power of that time and made a deal to claim only and only 30% of the oil ravenous while the British Monarchy took the Lion share. It was shrewd and calculated, since they didn't have the means to drill and the technology and man power, they made deal with the devil of that time. But the catch was it will only continue for a certain period, I can't recall the exact duration but the stage was set to drive the Bedouin out of his hut to the sky crabbers of today. Al-Saud over came the former rulers of Hijaz, the Hashemites. The British created out of no where a country called Jordan and gave it to Kind Abdullah who lost to Al-Saud. The loosing Hashemites found sanctuary in their new found land and ever since Jordan plus all the other surrounding tripe's were in the pockets of the the Colonial of that era and the new kids of on the block today, namely the Yanks. Kuwait was created from Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE all this appeared from no where. Why, to set the stage of the grand old rule of the Colonial master plan. Divide and rule, in other words the countries u see in your atlas maps are the result of the British empire. An empire that once boasted it never sees the dawn of a day or the empire that never sees a sun set. When one part of it's rule is in night shift another is rising to fuel and furnish the monarchy in London. Anyway lets depart from that brief History and face the aspect of the ills that has befallen our Ummah. Brothers if the head is sick the body can't be healthy, our head (leaders) are victims of worldly affairs. I for one have nothing against the Arab in the street but those who barricade themselves behind towers and palaces have a lot to answer on Judgment Day. I don't have the exact wording of the Hadith but their is a Hadith that addresses the blight we have today. It says.. if people divert from the straight path Allah(SWA) will punish them with unjust rulers. Well, that's what we have today. Not long ago the country we call home executed 10 sheikhs, reason, they disagreed with the leader when he transgressed against the holy Quran. 7 million people did nothing, they watched the execution without a finger been lifted. After several years those 7 million people plus their so called leaders were transformed to be beggars of the world. Every airport, every station every camp the citizens of that country are begging for food and shelter. They brought their offsprings to obtain benifits from the western world, the more children u have the more social money or benifit you gain. It's a tragedy, a country so prosperous with a promising future, infact the only country in Africa having fair and clean elections every 4 years has turned from prosperity to poverty beyond bewilderment in less than 21 years. I hope your not saying this has nothing to do with weak or authentic Hadith, well it has everything to do with it, cause the further u step away from the truth and teachings of our Prophet(SAW) and the Quran the further u head to what has befallen that small country called Somalia. The leaders of the Arab world are not interested in the well being of Islam, most of them are famous for the mass murder of the Ummah, Jamal abdul Nasser, Anwar sadad, Hafez Al Asad, King Hussein all went to their graves with Muslim Blood in their hands. What is the reaction of the present rulers, well they aspire and compete for a 'nod' from the white house, who ever is invited there is protected and nourished who ever refuses faces the music of B52 like Sadam did. Does the white have interest in upholding and spreading the authentic Hadiths??? I leave that to your imagination. Till then fii amaani Laah.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 12:48 pm Correction: the 'white' on the last sentence stands for the white house not the race.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 02:01 pm Babilon, I have read something about weak hadiths and fabricated hadiths. However the sources of this information were from women scholars such as the American Dr. Lynn Wilcox - a shite muslim and the Morrocan, Dr. Fatima Mernissi - sunni? muslim and a feminist. Could you reccomend some literature on this subject? ( In English please, I can't read Arabic)Thanks
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:34 pm Asalaamu alaykum brother Babilon, You have me scratching my head. Akhi I’m desperately trying to make sense of what your saying. The white house, king fahd, Muhammad Hosni Mubarak, Zine Al-Abidine Ben Ali Shahabuddin Ahmed, Bacharuddin Jusuf Habibie, Sultan of Selangor, Parvez Musharraf none of these guys have Islam in their interest (as far as I know). Your version of history may be true or just another british spy’s confession. I will try and read between the lines because I see nothing on the surface that is related to weak ahadith. Tell me if I’m correct, The Saudis with their oil many bought or bribed the printing presses in Pakistani, Egyptian, Lebanon and other nations. So we cannot trust a lot of printed materials that we have today. The ahadith that are da’if are not really da’if and the hadith that appear to be sahih are not really sahih! Right. I still don’t see why you’ve singled out Saudi Arabia. All the oppressed Muslims have made deals with the Kufaar west (by way of oppressive rulers). Every Muslim country has a bad ruler. Every Muslim country has interest (ribba), alcohol, some have kingdoms while others have president who never leave power. The west oppresses all Muslims. They all have drugs, prostitution and gambling. All these vices are wicked and may Allah help the Muslims to change their condition. Akhi, I fail to see why do you have a special eye for Saudi Arabia! Why. If you were just you will see that Saudi Arabia has less Alcohol, ribba (because they have an interest free banking option), less drugs and prostitution. Saudi Arabia is far better than most nations in punishing sins. Yes they have their share of corruption but less than most other Muslim nation. In the sight of Allah is a sin committed in Jeddah or Riyadh worse than one committed in Lahore or Canada. Is this why you have a special eye for Hijaz?? I do not condone any evil done on Allah earth but, Dear brother, I see no justice in your evaluation of current events. How is it that you judge? It is almost as if you stripped Allah subhanahu watallah of all His Power and you’ve place the earth under the control of the west and corrupt rulers. This is what Conspiracy theory is all about in essence. Conspiracies occur but any body can use it to explain any thing or reject anything. Like why do you wipe your over your socks during wudu. The british were trying to get the Muslims to by socks so the cleverly bribed the Saudi Family to add this hadith in Bukhari. This may sound silly to you. Similarly most (if not all) conspiracy theories sound ridiculous to me. Allah has told us in the Quran that the Kufaar are are enemies and that is sufficient for me. I don’t need to theory and I will remain silent about the rulers (their state of faith that is). I can clearly see that they are oppressive, corrupt and every other similar term. The rulers will stand before Allah just like us. Akhi the more I read what you have to say the more I think this is not about politics or even authentic ahadith. After all politician in other corrupt nations are not being accused of changing ahadith or other books. The only thing that makes Saudi Arabia different than these other nations is the presense of Tuwhid. This is a matter of Aqiddah. I don’t know how else to make sense of what your saying. Colonialism happened all over the Muslim world. Why did it happen because, as Hasan al-Basri says, "When one who knows Me disobeys Me, I empower over him one who does not know Me." If this is not about aqiddah please forgive me as I’m frantically trying to make sense of your undivided hatred for Saudi Government (and I guess their scholars because you’ve not acquitted them of wrong doing)
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:46 pm Please forgive the implication in my last paragraph, it sounds as if I’m suggesting that you’re against Tuwhid. That is not what I meant. I was suggesting that you don’t like the aqiddah present in Saudi Arabia. Have I made a right diagnosis? Please excuse the liberty I took in reading between the lines. If I’m wrong then nobody will be Happier then me.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:06 pm Asalaamu alaikum, JB and Babilon, brothers, it might be wiser to just let this go. There is no khair in it and it can lead to bigger problems. I'm speaking from experience when I say there is no benefit in such discussions. A whole organization (our MSA) almost fell apart last year because of such discussions and kufaar took advantage of this as we were a dominant group on campus. I'm sure you both have the most noble of intentions, but since this is a public forum, you never know who is reading your postings. It might be wiser to stop this discussion and leave this topic all together. Allah knows best. Your sister in Islaam.
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:21 pm A/aleykum, JB u amaze me, and I will get back to the concerns u raised. Asraar, disregard what a feminist and shia preach, I was concern and worried to find the right books to appease your question but alhamdulilaah I found the right information for you. Below is a question similar to yours and I am sure JB and FG will find it beneficial as I did. Asraar the books u asked for are mention in the answer too. JB please for give me for causing confusion and forcing you to scratch your head that hard, I hope you didn't loose hair while doing it(lol) Brother I don't know what your reading but what I wrote and how you replied are as wide apart as chalk and cheese. I don't know how u manage to compare the so called western power and the Might of the Creator of this Universe cause I never sugested anythng of that nature. The west will follow the path of the satanic world leaders before them, the Pharaohs, the Greeks and the Roman empire. They will suffocate in their own greed and filthy laws. I was displaying how the Muslim world has fallen prey to the worship of material world while drifting from the core and concept of taking their place under the sun to stand up for their faith. As I mention in my previous comment if the head is ill u can't expect to have a healthy body. Whether you like it or not Saudia Arabia is like none, it is where our holy sites are station, it's where the Muslim world was led in it's conquest of the World, it's where the revelations took place and above all it's where Our beloved Prophet(SAW) was born, bread and brought to the light of Prophethood. If the whole world goes astray it's where the light should never flicker but flourish from east to west, north to south, brother in short this so called kings are a disgrace to our navel or centre gravity- our home, the home of every Muslim on earth. Everyday almost one billion people turn to Mecca to pray their obligatory prayers, and u dare say Saudia is like any other Muslim country, I beg you pardon but that's an absurd suggestion, I hope I miss-understood your comment cause if you said what I thought u did then brother u need help. Feel free to check the details I post here cause I have no need to refrain from the facts, and the facts are quite shocking when it comes to the mayhem this kingdom has brought to the land of our Prophet(SAW). Hijaz flourished and conquered the world before the discovery of oil, infact one of their main source of income came from dates but as a centre of our faith it flourished beyond expectation. One of the reasons that land will never see darkness is because it's where the last light for humanity was lit, it's not prosperous because of this puppets of the west but because of the sublications of the Prophet(SAW) has made for this Land. Not long ago you had ladies in shorts trotting around the soil of Hijaz, do u ever fanthom that would have happen if the leaders were just and upright?? I hope your not scratching your head again. Anyway JB I have no quarrel with you and your views but u keep distorting my comments, which isn't fair game, if you don't grasp what I am yelling about let me know, I'm more than willing to burn the midnight oil to at least clarify my limited views. Again bear in mind I am not an expert or learnt as much as aspire or wish to be. But it doesn't need an expert to take the temperature of the Ummah today and conclude we surely are in dire state of health. Forgive me if I have misrepresented your views that was not my intention. May Allah(SWA) guard us to the right path both in this short and temporary world and the here after. :Below is the question&answer I mention above: It's from a useful site, pay a visit. Till then fii amaani Laah -------------------------------------------------- Question: I have a question regarding hadith. I know we should follow Muhammad's(SAW ) example but how sure are we that some of the hadith we have today are not corrupt and changed. I am by no means judging the hadith and saying they are wrong. please understand that. it's just that some muslims have told me alot of hadith is changed and bogus. I follow the hadith to the best of my ability. Please help me with any knowledge. thank you. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Allaah has guaranteed to protect His religion, which includes preserving His miraculous Book, and preserving the Sunnah of His Prophet which helps us to understand the Qur’aan. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9] The word Dhikr here includes both the Qur’aan and the Sunnah. Many people – in the past and at present – have tried to insert weak and fabricated ahaadeeth into the pure sharee’ah and the Prophetic Sunnah. But Allaah has thrown their plots back in their faces and has provided means of protecting His religion. Among these means are the trustworthy and reliable scholars who sifted through the reports and checked their sources, examining the biographies of the narrators and even describing the point at which a narrator began to be confused in his narration, and stating who narrated from him before he became confused and who narrated from him afterwards. They described the journeys of the narrator, which cities he visited and from whom in each city he took reports. They checked many details about each narrator, more than can be listed here. All of this indicates that the religion of this Ummah is protected, no matter how hard our enemies try to plot and play about with the religion and distort it. Sufyaan al-Thawri said: the angels are the guardians of the heavens and the scholars of hadeeth are the guardians of this world. Al-Haafiz al-Dhahabi mentioned that Haaroon al-Rasheed was about to execute a zindeeq (heretic), and the zindeeq said: “What are you going to do about the one thousand ahaadeeth I have fabricated?” Al-Rasheed said: “What are you going to do, O enemy of Allaah, about Abu Ishaaq al-Fazaari and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who will sift through those ahaadeeth and examine them letter by letter?” The seeker of knowledge can find out about the fabricated (mawdoo’) and weak (da’eef) ahaadeeth very easily, by looking at the isnaads or chains of narrators, and finding out about the people mentioned there in the “books of men” i.e., narrators (kutub al-rijaal) and the books which state which narrators are sound or otherwise (kutab al-jarh wa’l-ta’deel). Many scholars have compiled these fabricated and weak ahaadeeth in books devoted solely to these type of reports, so that it is easy to find out about them – then one can beware of them and warn others about them. These books include al-‘Ilal al-Mutanaahiyah by Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Manaar al-Muneef by Ibn al-Qayyim, al-La’aali’ al-Masnoo’ah fi’l-Ahaadeeth al-Mawdoo’ah by al-Suyooti, al-Fawaa’id al-Majmoo’ah by al-Shawkaani, al-Asraar al-Marfoo’ah fi’l-Ahaadeeth al-Mawdoo’ah by Ibn ‘Arraaq, and Da’eef al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer and Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth al-Da’eefah wa’l-Mawdoo’ah, both by Shaykh al-Albaani, may Allaah have mercy on him. The fact that the brother has heard about weak and fabricated ahaadeeth indicates that he is making the distinction – praise be to Allaah – between what is saheeh and what is not. This is by the grace of Allaah, and is a sign that Allaah is protecting this sharee’ah, as we mentioned above. We advise our brother to read the “books of men” i.e., narrators (kutub al-rijaal), the books which state which narrators are sound or otherwise (kutab al-jarh wa’l-ta’deel) and the books of the science of hadeeth (kutub mustalah al-hadeeth), so that he can learn the extent of the efforts made by the scholars in the service of the Sunnah. And Allaah is the source of strength. Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
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| | Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:30 pm A/aleykum, TLG shukran for the wise advise, from my side it's curtains. W/salaam
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 03:09 am c/salam I found it hard keeping up with the changing time table... i hope this link can assist you if you need to know the prayer times... while you are moving about the globe... http://www.msa-natl.org/resources/prayertimes/salat.cgi?eu=region
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:23 am Asalamu alaykum TLG, Jazak Allah Khair for your good advice. Br. Babilon, sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not know where you were heading. I assumed you were against printed ahadith because some people blame ahlul Hijaz of changing them. Please accept my apologies. I do not condone wrong doing or evil governments anywhere on earth. I also believe that the three mosques are sacred and non Muslims are not to enter these cities. I do not hold Muslims of a particular region to a higher moral standard. I would have found your comments agreeable if they focused on all Muslims instead of focusing on one country. I was obviously mistaken in some or all my assumptions as you’ve quoted or referred to a Medina graduate in your last post.
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:54 am Assalaamu caleykum all. Brother Babilon, I took advantage of what you wrote and really appreciated it. I understood you correctly all along. Thanks jazakallaahu kheyran. Asraar. Sis,
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 12:53 pm Asalaama Caleyekum all. Babilon, Thank you. Jazaaka Allah khairan. Bro. FG ??
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:25 pm Assalaamu caleykum. Asraar. I was in a rush and wanted to write in one post both to you and brother babilon. I changed my mind but forgot to delete your name. Sorry to keep you wondering. My intention was to say you were in a better position when you and brother Nur told us the other day to be nice to people that I was roughing up. I got wiser now I think, and decided to let you know that. Sorry. I listened to a friday lecture that talked right about that. I am kinda emmotional when I am dealing with some people. Sorry again. Wassalaamu caleykum.
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 02:57 pm Bro. FG, we are all human and thus not perfect. I have seen how people who post at this forum provoke us by misrepresetnting or denying Islam. The Quran talks about this type of people and we know what is in store for them. As muslims, we have to set the record straight when we see their lies about our religion, however, we have to tell them in a way that is not arrogant or confrontational. May Allah swt guide us towards the true path and forgive us. Waa caleycum salaam
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| | Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 07:25 pm AAWW(a/aleykum w w) Apology accepted br.JB and honestly I am honoured and glad we came to civil and decent conclusion, cause this sort of discusions however well intended can take un precedented turn and really paint a diferent veiw than was the intention. There are some good people who express their veiws in this pages and sometimes it's puzzling how they are taken our of context by an individual with hidden agenda, make it a princible and a borderline policy not to entertain such narrow minded folks who have envy not against u as a person but against your faith. May Allah(SWA) guard them to the right path. The irony is you won't see a Muslim trashing another faith but it's common and rampant for people of other faiths to trash and tarnish our faith, the reason is as old as time itself. Some can't come to grips with how a faith that has began with a single soul in the desert :our Prophet(SAW) has transformed humanity from the peak of paganism to the prostration of the soul for it's Creator Allah(SWA). I have a wonderfull friend who studies boilogy and when we talk about her feild of study she never fails to amaze me, I asked her opinion about her day to day discovery in her own words she said is...when u reflect upon them......and think about God's creation and how complex....and dependent they r with each other.... Till then fii amaani Laah.
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