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SomaliNet Forum (Archive): Islam (Religion): Islam (Current): A message for TLG, Common, Asad, Former Guest and the....III

Nour	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 06:29 am You Know, whenever I see PG approaching things through logic, it makes me laugh. See at favourite A' and B's. In (A) she concluded that "neither of us has an advantage" in (B) look at the end of every case that she presents. Here are the phrases she concluded in every case: "you lose and I lose", "you lose, I lose", "so does everyone else who's not a Hindu" "all humans lose" and so on. PG lost in EVERY case. She is always on the loosing side. Actually, she is not supposed to come into the picture in (B) because this case is between the religions. She should let the battle begin between the religions, then TGL has a good chance of winning among ALL beleives. As for this life, experiements after experiements shows that people with faith in God, live happier live than those who have no phase in God. One of the reasons(as they said) is that people with faith has A HOPE. Obviously you can that, this is a true in the arguement of PG that she has no Hope. she is the looser in every case. For those who know the Qur'an. Does this ring a bell. This exactly the case of Shatan, he knows he is the looser and he wants everybody to loose. As for the atrosicities committed against humanity, I have two words for you, READ HISTORY. No one is worst than Selfish Atheist. PG, as you already admitted, you are troubly loosing in every case, ZERO chance of winning, Please,please, don't continue this way. Don't be arrogant. Have some chance of winning for God's sake.
Anonymous	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 06:46 am TLG Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Asalaamu alaikum all, Just came back to answer a few questions. First, Galool, abtee, I wanted to apologise if I wrongly accused you of having a contempt for Somalis/Somalia. I would hate to wrongly accuse anyone. It is related that a muslim can do two injustices: One against Allah for disobeying him and neglecting acts of worship and the other a gainst a fellow human being. And it is said that the latter is more serious. So I apologise and I mean it. I hope you can forgive me. Second, you asked how I came to the conclusion of you having a contempt for Somalis/Somalia. Well, i'm yet to see any where u say something positive about Somalis or Somalia. So far, all you've said is negative. That can be pretty dangerous for those who don't know much about Somalis/Somalia (myself included). There are already numerous Somalis that are ashamed of being Somali. But ofcourse, the fact that I haven't come across anywhere where you've spoken postively about Somalis doesn't mean that you hate Somalis/Somalia. It might as well be that there are other places where u've said something postive and I just didn't come across such a venue. So apology is still in place. Also, you said I shouldn't "run away from battle". Battle with whom? You, PG or Arawello (the only people I was addressing at the time)? As for a battle with Arawello/anonymous, no comment. If you were refering to a battle with you or PG, then, all I can is that,I figured there isn't really anything to fight over. You for example will rant Islam (or any other organized religion) is evil. I will scream Islam is the answer. At the end of the day, you will win a few arguments against me (or occasionally smoke me...lol), feel good about yourself etc and feel sorry for me, "your favourite beardess" surrendering her intellect to a diety that "doesn't really exist". On the few occasions I win arguments against you, I will feel sorry for you and pray for your guidance...and on and on and on our battle goes... But I have one advantage over you. which is this: 1) If God exists,there is accountability for what we do in this life, there is an afterlife, hell and heaven exist. I win you lose. 2) the opposite is true and we are on the same level. I don't lose, you don't lose. So, at the end of the day, i'm at a better position than you are. If I were you, I wouldn't be worried for TLG or any other sister that has to wait inline with "69 other heavenly creatures for anon, common or FG". I would be worried of what will happen to my sorry behind if scenario 1 above is true. BTW, your arrogance is becoming unbearable. What is it? Is PG boosting your confidence? And btw, I wouldn't call anyone who brings the best(worst in my view) in you the "softer sex". PG, whats up sister? I know, we can be a lil obssesive when it comes to the age thing. Galool used to call me "young one" when I first joined this forum. I wonder why? Perhaps my messages were childlish. BTW, never say never on the reversion thing. CHANCE does wonders sometimes. If it can "create" something from nothing, why not revert PG to being a "beardess"? Take care all. ANON Monday, March 12, 2001 - 06:01 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I were you, I wouldn't be worried for TLG or any other sister that has to wait inline with "69 other heavenly creatures for anon, common or FG"" tlg, i know you are better muslim than i'm----because you do what i don't---you pray for and give advice to even those who displays and vomits blasphemous aphorism openly. would you atleast make dua for me too that i get into the heaven-----where 69 or more heavenly women waiting for me? since you are better muslim than i'm, your dua may get acceptance. please make dua for at night---- even if you have to muster up some crocodile tears to let God know you love all His creatures. i think it is allowed to force himself or herself into crying front of Allah, isn't it? fg. Monday, March 12, 2001 - 06:18 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bro Anon, thanks very much and keep up the good work. I think P-GIRL is playing a victim as her and her folks in confusion do always. Islam and muslims are the villains and the rest are the victims of it. Guess they are obsessed with islam. P-GIRL: Can't address all your concerns for the time being. I will drive several miles and have lots of snow on the ground to cover. I want to say though before I log out, Allah gives examples in the Quran and he doesn't shy away using a mosquito as an example. If You don't like your example in the Quran, I can't help you with that PG. Don't be so hard on yourself by being too angry over them. The Quran does bite, so deal with it. In fact, it told us beforehand what you would say when you dislike the parables given in it: "30.58 Verily We have propounded for men, in this Qurán every kind of Parable: but if you bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "You do nothing but talk vanities." I love the parables in the Quran and the examples it gives about you disbelievers(Oops! atheists). They enlighten and educate me about everything including your inner thoughts and your ever expounding conspiracies and hatreds for islam. Here is few more verses: "39:27. We have put forth for men, in this Qurán every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition. 28. (It is) a Qurán in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil. 29. Allah puts forth a Parable - a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah. but most of them have no knowledge. I will come back later to deal with the rest of what you wrote inshallah. Galool. Is the break dancing in the crack infested harlem your option for P-GIRL?. PragmaticGal Monday, March 12, 2001 - 08:30 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FG, Drive safe, old bro. Or just close your eyes and pray to God. Yes that's a little unfair, but so what? I have decided that the gloves are coming off for good, if you guys won't refrain from "crying wolf". <bro Anon, thanks very much and keep up the good work. I think P-GIRL is playing a victim as her and her folks in confusion do always. Islam and muslims are the villains and the rest are the victims of it. Guess they are obsessed with islam.> "Keep up the good work" lol. To use Anon's favourite example, I imagine Hitler said the same thing to his underlings. Only in German. BTW, Why is it that when I attack Muslims, it's wrong, disrespectful etc., but when you attack me, either directly or using the Qur'an as a mouthpiece, it can't be helped and is perfectly fine? And you accuse me and Galool of a double standard? <I want to say though before I log out, Allah gives examples in the Quran and he doesn't shy away using a mosquito as an example. If You don't like your example in the Quran, I can't help you with that PG. Don't be so hard on yourself by being too angry over them. The Quran does bite, so deal with it.> LOL. Trust me, I don't lose any sleep over it. But what if the parables are dumb, false, copied or non-sensical? Then I suppose I would tell YOU not to be so hard on yourself by being too rational to accept them. <In fact, it told us beforehand that you would say when you dislike the parables given in it> Oh yes, there's an ayah there with my name on it. Get real. The Qur'an is just covering its ass, figuratively speaking. Muhammed knew that the "parables" weren't exactly always meaningful or proof that God came up with them, so he insults the doubters before they actually complained. Very clever ploy. People who actually have trouble seeing the point will keep quite because it's already said in the Qur'an that they are bad, etc. <"30.58 Verily We have propounded for men, in this Qurán every kind of Parable: but if you bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "You do nothing but talk vanities.""> EVERY kind of Parable? Surely, the Qur'an leaves out some good ones, including excellent ones in the Old and New Testaments, and some thought of by theists since. And anyway, a parable is a "Sign"? A semantic metaphor/simile that relies on the knowledge of Arabic is a "Sign" of God's existence? Get real! <I love the parables in the Quran and the examples it gives about you disbelievers(Oops! atheists). They enlighten and educate me about everything including your inner thoughts and your ever expounding conspiracies and hatreds for islam.> How magical. My inner thoughts, huh? What am I thinking now, FG? And as for conspiracies and hatreds, no one has those like a Muslim:- Conspiracies: all Muslims believe non-Muslims are out to get them, convert them to their respective religions or atheism, or kill them. On the other hand, I don't think all theists are out to get me, for the simple reason that all theists don't know me, AND there are some intelligent, rational theists who wouldn't dream of killing someone else for a mere difference in idealogy. Hatreds: Just read the Qur'an. <"39:27. We have put forth for men, in this Qurán every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition."> Another repetition of the above hyperbole. The Qur'an definitely does not contain every kind of parable. Do you think God should be exagerating so much? <28. (It is) a Qurán in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.> That's an internal judgement, and therefore useless for proving the veracity of the Qur'an. The Bible says the same thing. And why in Arabic? Wouldn't it have been a real miracle if it was in every human language, or at least the major ones? Or what if every human being was miraculously told his own Qur'an at birth (a recitation, if you will), in his own tongue, and making special reference to him ("Don't lie all the time, Abdul" Sura 5:12), but containing the same laws and prohibitions, so that no one need ever question that it is really from God? <"29. Allah puts forth a Parable - a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah. but most of them have no knowledge."> What about a man belonging to no one, a free agent, if you will? Is he comparable to those who belong to others, no matter how many? See why the "Parables" don't actually explain anything? And just to "sweeten the medicine" let's look at that dog parable again: "If it had been Our Will, We should have elevated him with Our Signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our Signs; so relate the story; perchance they may reflect." 7:176 Okay, here's a quick breakdown of this ayah: 1)"If it had been Our Will, We should have elevated him with Our Signs" So why didn't God will it? If the man is a disbeliever because God does not want him to be a Muslim, then is it any fault of his that he was overpowered by the Will of God? 2) "but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires." Who creates desires? Man or God? Who set out the fates of all men, good or bad? God appears to be blaming us for our fates, when it's he who wrote them to begin with! And can you get more "vain" than creating beings for the express purpose of worshipping you?!? 3) "His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue." Maybe dogs were wildly different in 6th century Arabia, but around here, if you attack a dog, he is going to attack back. In fact, many of them attack you even if you don't attack them. So this is not an effective parable for people who only know dogs around here, because they would be wondering what the hell the Qur'an meant. Dogs don't just loll out their tongues when you attack them! They attack back, they run or hide, they whimper or whine if they are constantly abused. They don't just stand there, lolling out their tongues. 4)"That is the similitude of those who reject Our Signs; so relate the story; perchance they may reflect." But it's already stated that, no matter what you do, disbelievers won't change. So what's the point of relating the story? Maybe I'll leave of here, since I have already had a field day. Adios. ANON Monday, March 12, 2001 - 08:54 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I have decided that the gloves are coming off for good, if you guys won't refrain from "crying wolf"" are you scaring us, pragmaticgal? ;-). i thought you were giving us all you had in you. ;-) "Keep up the good work" lol. To use Anon's favourite example, I imagine Hitler said the same thing to his underlings. Only in German." on his favouite people, right? ;-) "BTW, Why is it that when I attack Muslims, it's wrong, disrespectful etc, but when you attack me, either directly or using the Qur'an as a mouthpiece, it can't be helped and is perfectly fine? And you accuse me and Galool of a double standard?" did i tell you that i don't care if you judge my choice to reject your faith------you can reject my faith based on what you learned from those who think like you. it's the absurdity of atheism (apes being my ancestors ) that I don't accept. ;-). didn't i tell you also that one other thing i don't accept-----is the crying wolf that you and galool display----as if you guys not doing attacks. ;-) you guys throw your cheap shots at the muslims and you vomit your blasphemous antics to shock the muslims over and over again boldly. you've got to wonder where is the crying babies are coming from all of the sudden----when the table is turned around on you? this display of course is very sad -- or at least it would be if i could wholeheartedly believe it was not a ploy, but if you can not take it, don't dish it out. crying wolf would not help you guys. ;-) "Maybe I'll leave of here, since I have already had a field day." this is funny-----galool loves to claim the same things you are claiming--------he crowns himself as a winner. you people love to cater to your vanities-----making youself feel good, uh? i would say to you the same things i said to galool. all your servile attentions and unceasing adulation spring from your own selfish desire to get ahead-----without merits----aren't you sycophant also, pragmaticgal? ;-) noticed (pragmaticgal) that i repeated the "crying wolf" word. ;-) common Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 09:53 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prozac i wouldn't refer to you as little sis, mid twenties is moving up in the world for me. You losing grip on your senses by the day...BTW. I am not supposed to use pre concieved notions learnt at dugsi when "judging " you, however you already imagine that i think of you as subhuman? and am naturally older than you becasue i am a muslim "beardo" chuckle chuckle galool does her post remind you of anything?.. your me and hating 2/3's of humanity that you later retracted, after admitting it was a very flawed concept. prozac All this time i was scrambling for your attention, and your posts have decided to become boring and nonsensical bring back MM! galool (for this read, deep seated inferiority complex) Lily Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 11:10 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your debates are getting a tad bit personal Anonymous Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 01:22 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Common, PG could be old enough to be your mom. TLG Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 04:40 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Asalaamu alaikum all, Anon, you crack me up sometimes lol. I don't think i'm better Muslim than you or anyone else here, but i'll make dua for you none the less.... do the same for me. Common, lol. PG is waay out of your league...the age thing I mean. Actually some said to me TLG, you and Common should not waste your time with Galool, Mad or PG... These aged beings have done everything in life and now they are ranting their disatisfaction with Islam coz they have nothing better to do lol. FG, how goes it bro? PG, how disapointing! When I read "the gloves are coming off for good" I was expecting a big time blow on the Quran verses. ANON Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 05:09 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Anon, you crack me up sometimes lol" it is all good. ;-) "I don't think i'm better Muslim than you or anyone else here" i don't about others, but i know you do what i don't do---you pray for and give advice to even those who display and vomit blasphemous aphorism openly----which is what the prophet did. i, on the other hand, rather let those eat their own words. ;-) "but i'll make dua for you none the less" thanks. ;-) "do the same for me." what do you like? ;-) TLG Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 05:17 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <what do you like? ;-) > This is a tough question lol.. how about going to heaven so that I can "stand inline with 69 other heavenly creature for anon, Common and FG"? Or better yet, pray that I be saved from the "childish threats of Hell"? lol I crack myself up sometimes. This lab report of getting to me. On a serious note, pray to Allah that He makes my tongue full of his remembrance and my heart full of his taqwa. TLG Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 05:19 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oops...lab report is getting to me, not getting of me! Oh well, my ESL skills are kinda rusty.. and me bieng in Science isn't helping either...so you folks will understand. ANON Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 05:33 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------<what do you like? ;-) >--------- "This is a tough question lol" i didn't mean to put you on the spot. ;-) "how about going to heaven so that I can "stand inline with 69 other heavenly creature for anon, Common and FG"?" that is not possible. i heard that huurul tiin (the earth women) will not be inline with huurul cayn (heavely women). guess, what huurul tiin is said to be be doing and their title? ;-) "Or better yet, pray that I be saved from the "childish threats of Hell"?" i'm afraid these threats (warnings) are in the Quran and if read the Quran, you will know that these threats are clear. even sometimes----these threats make the believers scared and cry when they read it. "lol I crack myself up sometimes." that is okay----we all act like children sometimes and make jokes. ;-) "This lab report of getting to me." that is why this place (this forum) is to many people a place of refuge from work and school; it is a place where to kick back and kill time (galool thinks we are here to kill people). ;-) "On a serious note, pray to Allah that He makes my tongue full of his remembrance and my heart full of his taqwa." okay, insha-Allah PragmaticGal Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 06:27 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I figured out the "age obsession" now: If I am referred to as "lil girl", then it's a kind of insult, but if I am "very senior", then it's also an insult! Old or young, I am screwed: If I am relatively young than I am immature, but if I am relatively old--and at 25 I am positively ancient--then I am old enough to be Common's mom, ranting in my old age, etc. Well, this old dinosaur says ha ha! TLG, <BTW, never say never on the reversion thing. CHANCE does wonders sometimes. If it can "create" something from nothing, why not revert PG to being a "beardess"?> Ah, but I have FAITH that that won't happen. Faith needs no reason either, and there's nothing more powerful than blind FAITH, eh? <PG, how disapointing! When I read "the gloves are coming off for good" I was expecting a big time blow on the Quran verses.> Believe it or not, I re-read my post and erased some of the more inflammatory material, since ANON seems to be going off the deep end about the "blasphemous antics". I gathered that he's a lot more affected by what Galool and I write than he is willing to admit--he's actually writing paragraphs now, instead of the more typical word, followed by a smiley face (or is it a winky face?). Although you addressed the following to Galool, I hope you don't mind if I respond, since I hear it so many times: <But I have one advantage over you. which is this: 1) If God exists,there is accountability for what we do in this life, there is an afterlife, hell and heaven exist. I win you lose. 2) the opposite is true and we are on the same level. I don't lose, you don't lose.> There are so many problems with this old argument that I don't understand why theists keep presenting it as if it's irreproachable. Let's take both your possibilities and show why it's not as simple as you think: 1) <If God exists,there is accountability for what we do in this life, there is an afterlife, hell and heaven exist. I win you lose.> I am surprised you were able to string together so many unrelated concepts and come up with a conclusion. Anyway, here are the problems: A) If God exists, there's no guarantee that we have an afterlife (God made animals/plants and THEY don't have an afterlife), and even if there is an afterlife there's no guarantee that there's "accountability": God could simply send all to heaven, all to hell, all stay here on earth as ghosts, all are reincarnated, etc. Here, neither of us has an advantage. B) But let's say God exists AND there's accountability: Who's to say that this God is the God of Islam? If he's the God of Christianity, for example, you lose and I lose. If he's the God of Hinduism, you lose, I lose, the Christian loses, and so does everyone else who's not a Hindu. If he's the god Odin, then all humans lose for not believing in him anymore. If he's the God of beetles, all humans who have stepped on beetles lose, and anyone who did can lose, theist or atheist. The point is, just because there's a God, doesn't mean he's YOUR god. Maybe you should be worshipping all possible gods, just to hedge your bets (since this seems to be a gambling joint). But if you do that, some jealous gods who don't like to share worshippers will be angry with you, and again you lose, (I guess I also lose for not worshipping any of them). Now let's consider the second probability: <2) the opposite is true and we are on the same level. I don't lose, you don't lose.> Here I think you mean if God does not exist, then neither of us loses. This may be true after we die, but I don't think this is true NOW: If you live your life worshipping a non-existent being, then you certainly lose: you spent your time, effort and money in a useless endeavor. On the other hand, since I didn't waste my time praying, giving money to mercenary wadaads, embarking on an unnecessary, costly journey to Makkah, etc., I win. I win simply because I spend my time on on things I CHOOSE to do, not things I do because I am being forced by my belief in God. But there's an even bigger objection than that: what if you commit an act of obedience to God that's at odds with mercy, good judgement, and basic humanity: Stoning a human to death for sexual misdemeanors has to be the worst kind of act, if there's NO God to please. Embarking on a war to defend the "name of Islam, Muhammed, and Allah" is also a huge waste of human lives, effort, and money. Throughout history, Christians, Muslims, and Jews have been going to wars for no reason: no God, no reward. What about Muhammed himself? he waged war on the city of his birth and killed his countrymen, Arabs and Jews alike, for NO REASON, if there's no God. How about you: Yes, you're wasting your intellect defending a useless, indefensible faith, if there's no God. You are denying the truth, allowing injustices, and hurting lots of people. You hold the arrogant assumption that, as a Muslim, you can't be denied Heaven, but EVERY other human being, no matter how worthy, kind, brave, or useful to humanity, is headed for damnation. Think of all the people who benefitted humanity through their inventions, writings, or life: the people who came up with cures for diseases, fought against injustices, and tried their damnest to be good humans. Personally, if I am going to hell, then I look forward to meeting Darwin, the Buddha, Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Newton, Carl Sagan, Shakespeare, Martin Luther King Jr., Thomas Paine, and many, many other people whom I admire. Think about all the inhabitants of this continent (North America) a thousand years ago: they had never heard of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. They knew nothing about the birth of another Middle Eastern religion a continent and an ocean away. They could not even make contact with their "salvation", even if they knew it existed: An ocean separated them from Europe, and Arabia was even farther away. I heard my whole life the argument that God had given every person an intellect to seek out the "Truth", even if they were born in a non-Muslim society. But to a Mayan in Mesoamerica before Columbus, truth was what his priests told him, love was what he shared with his family, and human sacrifice was necessary to please his god (compare with witch burning in Europe and the present practice of stoning adulterers (usually women) to death in the Muslim world). This person may have been intelligent, hard-working, kind, and noble, and yet none of this matters because he's a "pagan" and will go to Hell. Tell me how was he to know about Muhammed's religion in a place he couldn't visit and didn't even know existed? That question has never been answered satisfactorily by any Muslim I know, and you know why? Because there's no appropriate answer that takes into account the real facts, justice, AND Islam. Go figure. ANON Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 06:50 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Believe it or not, I re-read my post and erased some of the more inflammatory material, since ANON seems to be going off the deep end about the "blasphemous antics"." are you saying you erased some of your rabble-rousing (blasphemous antics) because of ANON? ;-). it seems to me that it is the other way around------it is what ANON says-----that is affecting pragmacticgal, right? ;-) "I gathered that he's a lot more affected by what Galool and I write than he is willing to admit" that is what i call a wishful thinking. many times people like you and others wondered why i'm not affected by the blasphemous actics in order to shock or throw off people and the insults thrown at me. ;-) "he's actually writing paragraphs now" lol "instead of the more typical word" lol "followed by a smiley face (or is it a winky face?)" maybe it is a sign of me getting shocked----as a result of what galool and you write. ;-) PragmaticGal Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 08:19 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cowboy, <Prozac> LOL. Unfortunately, your nickname (common) already defines your mental abilities and reasoning, so there are no fun changes I can me to it, but how about: commando, crude, credulous, complacent, compartmentalized, and so on. <i wouldn't refer to you as little sis, mid twenties is moving up in the world for me.> Refer to me as ayeeyo then, hmmm? <You losing grip on your senses by the day...BTW.> Really? Which of my senses? Sight, Hearing, Smell, Taste, or Touch? Oh, you mean COMMON SENSE. I am sure that, for you, it's common sense to believe in anthropomorphic supernatural beings obsessed with your sex life, but no such luck for irrational "evilutionists" like me. <I am not supposed to use pre concieved notions learnt at dugsi when "judging " you, however you already imagine that i think of you as subhuman?> I don't "imagine", it's right there in the Qur'an, and you certainly believe in every word of the Qur'an, don't you common? "We have indeed created man in the best of moulds; Then do We abase him (to be) the lowest of the low; Except such as believe and do righteous deeds: For they shall have a reward unfailing". (95:4-6) Now let me see: to go from the "best of moulds" to abasement as the "lowest of the low" because I don't believe in gods and do "righteous" deeds, would make me subhuman, wouldn't it common? Maybe you didn't learn this particular ayah at dugsi, but it certainly has the morals of a very sick child. <and am naturally older than you becasue i am a muslim "beardo" chuckle chuckle> chuckle chuckle. Of course I don't get what you mean, but laughter is good for one's health, I hear. <does her post remind you of anything?.. your me and hating 2/3's of humanity that you later retracted, after admitting it was a very flawed concept.> You certainly despise 5/6's of humanity and think they deserve to go to hell, common. Otherwise you wouldn't be a good beardo. <All this time i was scrambling for your attention,> Dear me, how insensitive of me not to notice...or care. <and your posts have decided to become boring and nonsensical> You must be glad for the company then, eh? fg. Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 08:22 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PG. Your proplem is admiring what you write and applauding for it without waiting for others to have a say about it. But that is normal for you people isn't it?. When you made a conscious decision to take disbelief over belief you should be happy about it and feel very secure in it don't you think?. I appreciate though that you share your fears and insecurity with us day in day out. There is always and had been the two parties that we have here. The Party of EVIL and the Party of God. You made SATAN your intimate friend and feeble is your cunning and weak indeed. How many converts did you acquire so far?. How many minds did you freed as you claimed once?. I am getting stronger in my faith everytime I read your cheap and confusing childish complaints about islam. You are the loser here although you don't see that: "4:119..Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes Satan for a friend, has of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest. I think one needs to read through your desperate posts to see how sad it is to become confused and dazed. You are one of those people Allah said about them: "16.63 By Allah, We (also) sent (Our messengers) to Peoples before you; but Satan made, (to the wicked), their own acts seem alluring: He is also their patron today, but they shall have a most grievous chastisement". "8.48 Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them...", So it is hard for you to see your fallacies since they look great and justifiable for you. While you follow the advice of Ibliis and your desires, we follow the advice of Allah almighty when he said: "24.21 O you who believe! Follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is indecent and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah does purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things). On a serious note, you would understand that all people were not destined to be purified. Some are intended to stay soaked in disbelief and RIJZ WHILE OTHERS ARE BLESSED both in this world and in the hereafter. And what is better blessing than living an islamic life. You and the people you said you admire won't have a good time in Hell. "3.10. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah. They are themselves but fuel for the Fire. 11. (Their plight will be) no better than that of the people of Pharaoh, and their predecessors: They denied our Signs, and Allah called them to account for their sins. For Allah is strict in punishment. 12. Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will you be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!" Don't be impatient. No second thoughts I hope. I will make sure to request seeing the list of suspects I knew in this world so that I can see how they faired in hell. fg. Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 08:58 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PG. Perhaps there is a reason why you don't see the Quran as a light and guidance but the opposite. IT IS DUE TO YOUR HEART AND SOUL that are different than Ours. Here is a quote: 24:35-40 contain a series of similitudes, contrasting the people of faith with the people of disbelief. The contrast is drawn in terms of light and darkness. Verse 35 makes the point that the light of divine guidance is given to one who has kept the natural goodness of his heart intact. Already possessing an inner light, such a person is prepared to receive 'the light of God'. His natural goodness reinforced by faith, he comes to possess 'light upon light'. The verse reads: "God is the light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of his light is as if there is a niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp in a glass; the glass looks as if it is a bright star. It [the lamp] is kindled from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west, one whose oil all but lights up, even though no fire has touched it. Light upon light! God guides to His light whomever He likes. God strikes similitudes for people, and God has knowledge of all things". The niche is the heart of the good man, and in that niche is a lamp that burns with the light of his innate goodness. The high degree of the purity and brightness of the light is emphasised. First, the lamp is enclosed in a glass, so that it has a steady and bright flame and is not put out by the wind. Second, the glass is not dirty but clear and shiny. It is like 'a bright star' so that it reflects the light well. Third, the lamp is fed with olive oil that has been extracted from a tree that was planted not on the fringe of the garden - 'neither of the east nor of the west' - but right in the middle of it, so that, being secure against the fury of the elements, it has yielded the purest kind of oil. The oil, in fact, is so pure that it would catch fire before coming into contact with fire. And when the oil, or the inner goodness of a man, does come into contact with fire or divine guidance, the result is 'light upon light'. Possessing this 'double light', one sees the heavens and the earth lit up, acquiring the master key to all knowledge and understanding, for, as the opening part of the verse says, 'God is the light of the heavens and the earth.' While verse 35 describes the state of the people of faith, verse 40 speaks of the condition of the people of disbelief. Here there is no light, only utter darkness: "or [their situation is] like layers of darkness out on a deep sea [the surface of] which is covered by a wave, on top of which there is another wave, on top of which there are clouds; layers of darkness piled one upon the other; when he [the disbeliever] puts out his hand he can hardly see it. And one who is not furnished with light by God has no light". As in verse 35, so in verse 40 the details progressively heighten the effect. A sharper contrast between light and darkness could hardly be imagined. By Mustansir Munir. Question Pg: If you can do without us muslims why not ignore us at all and waste your time?. Is it that you like our company?. Or may be you are here to make us look like fools since we declare our belief In Allah almighty?. fg. Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 09:13 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TLG. Sis, I never slept a night thinking I will go to heaven if I were to die that night. I am one of those guys who relied on Towhid and became very lazy. I think you fair better than me in the sight of Allah. Besides, there is no waiting line in heaven. Everyone will get what he/she wants. Everyone will have his/her wishes in folds and more. We all have options in heaven. Anonymous Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 02:12 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.jannah.com/cgi-bin/serve?f=mh-wfwij Anonymous Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 02:19 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.jannah.com/misc_scholars.html Anonymous Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 03:07 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Event--Waaqiah In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful 1-When the Event happens 2-and there can be no denial of its happening, 3-abasing one, exalting others. 4-This will be when the earth is shaken and shaken 5-and the mountains are crumbled and crumbled. 6-So that they become scattered dust. 7-And you are in three groups. 8-Those on the right hand, how happy shall those on the right hand be! 9-Those on the left hand; how miserable shall those on the left hand be! 10-And the preceders are the preceders. 11-Those shall be brought night, 12-in Gardens of Delight-- 13-a multitude from the ancients, 14-and a few the later generations. 15-On couches lined with gold. 16-Reclining on them facing each other. 17-Youths ever-young will go round them, 18-with goblets and ewers and cups of limpid drink. 19-Theirs will be no headiness, nor will they be inebriated. 20-And with fruit of their choice. 21-And with fowl-flesh of their desire. 22-And there will be fair ones large-eyed, 23-the like unto pearls well-guarded, 24-a recompense for what they had been doing. 25-No vain or sinful talk will they hear therein. 26-Only the saying; peace! peace! 27-And the fellows on the right hand; How happy shall the fellows on the right hand be! 28-mindst thornless lote-trees, 29-and plantains laden with fruit, 30-and the shade over-spread, 31-and water over-flowing, 32-and fruit abundant, 33-neither ending nor forbidden, 34-and couches raised. 35-Verily We! We have created those maidens by a special creation. 36-And have made them perpetual virgins, 37-loving, of equal age, 38-for the fellows on the right hand 39. A (goodly) number from those of old, 40. And a (goodly) number from those of later times. 41. The Companions of the Left Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Left Hand? 42. (They will be) in the midst of a Fierce Blast of Fire and in Boiling Water, 43. And in the shades of Black Smoke: 44. Nothing (will there be) to refresh, nor to please: 45. For that they were wont to be indulged, before that, in wealth (and luxury), 46. And persisted obstinately in wickedness supreme! 47. And they used to say, "What! when we die and become dust and bones, shall we then indeed be raised up again?- 48. " (We) and our fathers of old?" 49. Say: "Yea, those of old and those of later times, 50. "All will certainly be gathered together for the meeting appointed for a Day well-known. 51. "Then will ye truly,- O ye that go wrong, and treat (Truth) as Falsehood!- 52. "Ye will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum. 53. "Then will ye fill your insides therewith, 54. "And drink Boiling Water on top of it: 55. "Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst!" 56. Such will be their entertainment on the Day of Requital! 57. It is We Who have created you: why will ye not witness the Truth? 58. Do ye then see?- The (human Seed) that ye throw out,- 59. Is it ye who create it, or are We the Creators? 60. We have decreed Death to be your common lot, and We are not to be frustrated 61. from changing your Forms and creating you (again) in (forms) that ye know not. 62. And ye certainly know already the first form of creation: why then do ye not celebrate His praises? 63. See ye the seed that ye sow in the ground? 64. Is it ye that cause it to grow, or are We the Cause? 65. Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry powder, and ye would be left in wonderment, 66. (Saying), "We are indeed left with debts (for nothing): 67. "Indeed are we shut out (of the fruits of our labour)" 68. See ye the water which ye drink? 69. Do ye bring it down (in rain) from the cloud or do We? 70. Were it Our Will, We could make it salt (and unpalatable): then why do ye not give thanks? 71. See ye the Fire which ye kindle? 72. Is it ye who grow the tree which feeds the fire, or do We grow it? 73. We have made it a memorial (of Our handiwork), and an article of comfort and convenience for the denizens of deserts. 74. Then celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme! 75. Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,- 76. And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew,- 77. That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable, 78. In Book well-guarded, 79. Which none shall touch but those who are clean: 80. A Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 81. Is it such a Message that ye would hold in light esteem? 82. And have ye made it your livelihood that ye should declare it false? 83. Then why do ye not (intervene) when (the soul of the dying man) reaches the throat,- 84. And ye the while (sit) looking on,- 85. But We are nearer to him than ye, and yet see not,- 86. Then why do ye not,- If you are exempt from (future) account,- 87. Call back the soul, if ye are true (in the claim of independence)? 88. Thus, then, if he be of those Nearest to Allah, 89. (There is for him) Rest and Satisfaction, and a Garden of Delights. 90. And if he be of the Companions of the Right Hand, 91. (For him is the salutation), "Peace be unto thee", from the Companions of the Right Hand. 92. And if he be of those who treat (Truth) as Falsehood, who go wrong, 93. For him is Entertainment with Boiling Water. 94. And burning in Hell-Fire. 95. Verily, this is the Very Truth and Certainly. 96. So celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme. Anonymous Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 07:57 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fg, who are you to judge others? What gives you the right to do so?? That you fear Allah?? Does it make you a better person? If so, then I'm not impressed so far... You see, it's OK to disagree. Try to learn from it instead of judge. But then again; It's easy to learn but far more difficult to UNDERSTAND what you learn.... I wish you good luck! common Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 09:31 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slanging match? How perfect is Allah (swt)
Galool	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 09:19 am Anonymous I did not read a single line of what you wrote. Nobody does. So why write them? The forum is for people to express their opinions, learn from each other through debate and exchange ideas. Anyone can copy a whole article, just to bore everyone to death. Are so ashamed of your own views that you can't think for yourself?
ANON	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 10:17 am "I did not read a single line of what you wrote. Nobody does." if nobody did read (which is not true) what the anonymous person wrote (no---copied and pasted), do you think the anonymous guy or lady cares if galool (particularly him) reads or does not read what she or he copied and pasted on this forum? ;-) "So why write them?" i think he or she didn't write them; he or she copied and pasted on here. ;-). however, why can she or he do that--------why is galool shutting people up or censoring people and information? ;-) "The forum is for people to express their opinions, learn from each other through debate and exchange ideas." can't the exchanging thing-----include the forwarding news reports, information, other ideas from other places on this forum? i have seen many people (including you galool) forwarding messages from other sites onto this public forum, right? ;-) so why not him or her also? ;-) "Anyone can copy a whole article, just to bore everyone to death." not only copying a whole article can bore people to death, but simple repeated blasphemy can bore people too? ;-)
WhitegirlNorway	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 11:16 am LOL! you guys are fuckin' crazy... Heheheh! ANON; You must have alot of wrinkles after all your winking?? Mr.Bloodhound...?
Galool	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 12:23 pm ANON I am shuttting nobody up. Censorship maybe your style but its not mine. On the contrary I am ENCOURAGING anonymous to speak his/her mind. And, ANON, you never saw me pasting messages from other sites on this forum. I express my opinions and like to read what others actually think. WhitegirlNorway Why "White"? does it matter? Why not just "Norwaygirl"? Just asking.
WhitegirlNorway	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 12:33 pm Galool, To show that I'm a bird of passage....
TLG	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 12:46 pm <Ah, but I have FAITH that that won't happen. Faith needs no reason either, and there's nothing more powerful than blind FAITH, eh?? Faith in what though? CHANCE? <I am surprised you were able to string together so many unrelated concepts and come up with a conclusion.> Looks like you did the exact same thing. Lets see how you faired. <Anyway, here are the problems A) If God exists, there's no guarantee that we have an afterlife (God made animals/plants and THEY don't have an afterlife)> If God exists, and HE says that there is an afer life, then there is an after life unless ofcourse you can prove to me that there ain't any. You can think of it as the "if P then Q" kinda reasoning. Plants/Animals/Fungi and all that exist has an after life if their CREATOR, WHO EXISTS said there will be an after life. < and even if there is an afterlife there's no guarantee that there's "accountability":> Again this follows the same logic above: If GOD (the CREATOR of the heavens, the earth and and all that is in it) EXISTS and GOD said there will an after life and each and everyone of HIS creation will be accountable for what they did in this life, then COVENTIONAL WISDOM dictates that there will be an ACCOUNTABILITY. <God could simply send all to heaven, all to hell, all stay here on earth as ghosts, all are reincarnated, etc. Here, neither of us has an advantage.> No, God won't send all to heaven or to hell or whatever. The GOD that Exists (according to our rationale here) set guidelines/Laws/commandments etc for HIS creation. Creation will be sent to those respective places based on how they faired. Those that fulfilled their side of the contract interms of fulfilling God's commandment will be sent to heaven those that didn't will be sent to hell...etc. <B) But let's say God exists AND there's accountability: Who's to say that this God is the God of Islam? If he's the God of Christianity, for example, you lose and I lose. If he's the God of Hinduism, you lose, I lose, the Christian loses, and so does everyone else who's not a Hindu. If he's the god Odin, then all humans lose for not believing in him anymore. If he's the God of beetles, all humans who have stepped on beetles lose, and anyone who did can lose, theist or atheist. The point is, just because there's a God, doesn't mean he's YOUR god. Maybe you should be worshipping all possible gods, just to hedge your bets (since this seems to be a gambling joint). But if you do that, some jealous gods who don't like to share worshippers will be angry with you, and again you lose, (I guess I also lose for not worshipping any of them).> PG, I can sit here till the camels come home arguing why I think my God and hence my Islam is the correct one using "rational" reasoning. But I doubt that is what you are interested in. And besides I don't have the time, so I'll save us both time and typing/reading energy and cut to the chase. Besides rationality itself belongs to ALLAH so it is suffienct for me that the Quran says so. so to answer your question on who says this God f Islam is the true God, I would say ALLAH. yap you heard me. Allah said so-in the Quran: "Ina deena 'indallahi al-Islam" (the only religion or way of life acceptable in the sight of Allah is Islam). Since I subscribe to the notion "the best of speech is the book of Allah and the best of guidance is that of Muhammad peace be upon him", it is sufficient for me to know that Allah said so. Now, i'm sure you'll argue that the Hindu will say the same and the Christian... and everyone else. My answer to that will be, if they are satisfied/content/happy with that (as I am with mine) then all the power to them. May be they are and might be the reason why they are not on an ISLAMIC FORUM raving Islam is evil and the Quran is false and Allah is "unjust" etc etc etc. So, PG, are you content/satisfied/happy/at peace etc with your beliefs? As for worshipping all possible Gods, I figured it is not worth it. For all other religions lack the essence of Tauheed (True Monotheism). For example, Christianity couldn't do if for me. I went to a British boarding school, as a Kid, where the concept of Christianity was ingrined in my mind like there is no tomorrow. They even played films of people in hell who rejected the Messaih. I mean, it was the height of conditioning. I had committed to memory soooo many biblical verses (John 3:16, "for god so loved the world..." being the most "important" one)But I couldn't get past the trinity. The egg (interms of york, white, and shell) or water (interms of ice, liquid and gas state) examples weren't enough for me. I have also studied Hinduism and in my Opinion, I would rather be a Christian or a Jew than any of those Eastern religions. So in short, Islam works for me. No need to worship "all possible gods". I'm happy with what I have. <Now let's consider the second probability: (2) the opposite is true and we are on the same level. I don't lose, you don't lose.> Here I think you mean if God does not exist, then neither of us loses. This may be true after we die, but I don't think this is true NOW: If you live your life worshipping a non-existent being, then you certainly lose: you spent your time, effort and money in a useless endeavor. On the other hand, since I didn't waste my time praying, giving money to mercenary wadaads, embarking on an unnecessary, costly journey to Makkah, etc., I win. I win simply because I spend my time on on things I CHOOSE to do, not things I do because I am being forced by my belief in God.> No, I don't think I lose in this case either. And this is true NOW, LATER AND FOREVER. Here is how: No I don't think I wasted my time, money and energy in a useless endeavor. If anything, following the Islamic way made me a better person as opposed to when I was a Muslim by name. And as I see it, prayer isn't a waste of time. If anything it taught me patience, panctuality, commitment etc. Infact, all the five pillars of Islam can be found in prayers: There is fasting in prayer as one does not eat when s/he is in a state of prayer, there is charity in prayer as time is money and I pray five times a day. (the first thing one asks you when u tell them u got a job is "how much do u get paid per hour?", the two testimonies (first pillar of Islam) are said in prayer. Facing the Qiblah (the direction of Makkah) can be linked to pilgrimage. So in essense, PARYER aint a waste of time for me. In addition, I certainly don't think going on a journey to Makkah is "unnecessary". both believers and non-believers alike testify to the fact that Makkah is a beautiful city (keeping the spritual benefits for me a side). I bet there are many athiests that are dying to enter the noble Sanctuatuary. So PG, you haven't delivered your case here. And please... you "win coz u do things that u choose to do"?...let me help you and say u do things that u think u choose but the choice is actually being made for you by POPULAR CULTURE. Infact in my opinion true strength and patience is best portrayed by those who BELIEVE. For they had the choice to indulge in whatever others indulge in but restrained themselves for an eternal bliss. It is like having the choice of going on Friday and Saturday nights coz you have the choice (since you are away from home) but instead choose to do your homework... <I heard my whole life the argument that God had given every person an intellect to seek out the "Truth", even if they were born in a non-Muslim society. But to a Mayan in Mesoamerica before Columbus, truth was what his priests told him, love was what he shared with his family, and human sacrifice was necessary to please his god (compare with witch burning in Europe and the present practice of stoning adulterers (usually women) to death in the Muslim world). This person may have been intelligent, hard-working, kind, and noble, and yet none of this matters because he's a "pagan" and will go to Hell. Tell me how was he to know about Muhammed's religion in a place he couldn't visit and didn't even know existed?> PG, Allah doesn't punish anyone who didn't recieve the message of Islam. If the Mayan, didn't hear of Allah, the Quran and Mohammed, then Allah does not punish them. I wouldn't worry for the Mayan who may/or may not have heard about Allah or Muhmmad or the Quran if I were you. I would be worried for me who heard about Allah, Muhammad and the Quran but thought was too "intelligent" to fall for such childish stuff. <That question has never been answered satisfactorily by any Muslim I know, and you know why? Because there's no appropriate answer that takes into account the real facts, justice, AND Islam. Go figure.> considering all your claims of knowing Islam and the Quran, I'm supprised you haven't come across the Ayah that talks about Allah not punishing anyone who has not recieved the message. Note: I will respond to the rest of your post soon.
Galool	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 12:50 pm WGN Like a Swan you mean? Then why Norway? Swans live all over the place.
WhitegirlNorway	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 01:01 pm Galool; No, I mean I'm a stranger here and a stranger there... Why Norway? Simply because I live in Norway. And would you believe me when I say that not all Norwegians are swans....? Now, where did that wrinkleface go?? TLG, I agree with you to a certain point, but why use so MANY words? I don't mean to offend you but you will get exhausted over nothing...
ANON	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 01:36 pm "LOL! you guys are fuckin' crazy... Heheheh!" where are the parent who raised this norwegian girl very well? ;-) "ANON; You must have alot of wrinkles after all your winking??" lol "Mr.Bloodhound...?" am i making you crazy? i thought you said in another place that i amuse you! ;-) "ANON I am shuttting nobody up. Censorship maybe your style but its not mine." well, as if you are the policeman on this forum, you are the one who said to the anonymous "The forum is for people to express their opinions, learn from each other through debate and exchange ideas.". does that mean is not for people like him or her? ;-) "On the contrary I am ENCOURAGING anonymous to speak his/her mind." but if he or she just forwards messages, this place is not for her or him, right? ;-) "And, ANON, you never saw me pasting messages from other sites on this forum." yes, i did. you cut and pasted "A message for TLG, Common, Asad, Former Guest and the..." from one place to another. ;-) "I express my opinions and like to read what others actually think." but you don't when someone else forwards what others said. you want this forum to be how you want it to be where people like anonymous can't forward messages, right? ;-)
TLG	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 01:40 pm WhitegirlNorway, lol...next time I'll keep it short so that I dont' "get exhausted over nothing". Thanks for the advice anyway. BTW, my uncle lives in Norway, do you know him?lol God, I crack myself up sometimes. Just wanted to be like those white people who when you tell them you are from Africa (with out specifying where exactly)say, "oh I know this person from Africa, do you know them? Their name is so and so". Then I respond, yeah, s/he is my cousin...our grand fathers are brothers... Or they see two people one from Somalia and the other from Nigeria and they go, "can your guys speak your language?" and at such moments I go, yeah...and turning to other African say, "uga buga" FG, thanks bro for the info about heaven. I was just been sarcastic since my unlce Galool somehow activates my "sarcastic gene" with his commnets about women and islam.
WhitegirlNorway	Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 01:58 pm Heheh, you know, it is so nice to se you guys laugh. :-) It is getting too serious in here sometimes, it's nicer when people can disagree and yet have fun now and then. Not that I say that everything is worth a good laugh though... TLG; Yes, I know your uncle, he is my neighbor, but ehhh, which one?? ;-))) Hehehe, the things you said about Africa....Hilarious! I almost fell off my chair here! :-))) But to be more serious; I live in a community with alot of Somalis. They seem nice, always smiling and always polite, hummm, in REAL world that is... ;-), but why is it so hard to get to know them? It seems like they want to be left alone, they only mingle with their own kind, not with Norwegians. I am talking about the adults... Why is that? We can't just blame it on different cultures or different belief, or can we? And I thought Norwegians were the cold people...
fg.	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 07:49 am Whitegirlnorway. Your expression of somalis being nice in the real world depends on your approach to them in that real world. Here, we have a different subject that touches the core essence of our valaues and what we stand for. It is all fair that we treat others they way they treat us although being better is always the more encouraged act of benevolence. You are all arbitrary in your judgements. Your hint about somalis on the virtual world being a little different is based on their re-action to your comments. We deal with, work with and for, listen to and learn from(in schools) from non-muslims. I think it would be ridiculous if we were how you indirectly said we were. I wouldn't shy away from telling my proffessor though, that he is wrong if he commented negatively about islam or insulted religious people in Unison no matter what religion they have. I did that in an english class once when a girl made an atheist comment to down-play belief in god by citing the ever twisted theory of empirical formula versus beliefs. I spoke for all religious people. I was surprised the teacher was calling the bible the other day a well written book according to literature and was defending religious people. He even asked where I came from and my beliefs. We can't let no brainers(Like Galool and Company) claim all the virtues just because they are faithless and want others to be like them. Let the people choose based on their own instinct. What is wrong with the belief in GOD?. If you guys atheists don't like it, then let others who believe in GOD live at peace.
fg.	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 09:33 am Whitegirl, sorry if I sounded harsh earlier. And we do laugh when someone makes a laughable comment. Depends on the comment. Not everything is laughable although some characters here are crazy. PG is not funny at all. She sounds scared most of the time.
Galool	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 10:00 am WGN I did have a creeping suspicion that all Norwegians may not look like swans. Indeed they would be an odd-looking bunch of humans if they did wouldn't they!? But why "White" then? Please don't feel under pressure to answer this question. Thanks.
Galool	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 10:26 am Dear Beloved Beardos &Beardesses I am concerned by how much you have been under the cosh recently. I know you can cope with one "dissenter" at a time but to be faced by two and even three must be quite a challenge for you guys. This is no sarky comment. As I said many times before, I have no intention of hurting the feelings of anyone here. I merely wish to point out that Islam is far more tolerant than your interpretations. It is a bonus if I can have some fun along the way. However, I am worried that PG and this new breed of intellectuals want far more than I did. They are challenging you to the core of your believes, and it seems they are dismantling you in a systematic manner. I am, in all honesty, slightly disturbed by that. So I repeat my offer. Shall I leave you alone? Do you feel under real pressure? Please let me know. I will respect comments from GOB, ANON, Common, Newdeal and TLG. If you want not to see my posts again, I will respect it. Thanks.
Anonymous	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 10:45 am Smart way to say I could not take the heat of kitchen. I found PG, rather hopeless.
WhitegirlNorway	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 11:32 am Hello fg, thanks for your reply :-) I got the feeling that I said something wrong here and that I never would get an answer... No, you don't sound harsh, maybe just a little upset?? I often try to approach my somali neighbors here, but with no luck... Especially the women seem to avoid me... In summertime we spend alot of time outdoors, and if I sit on a bench alone and show the Somali women that it's available space for them there too they just give me a polite smile and hit for the grass... Every time. We are quite social here, atleast during summertime, and the Indians or people from other countries always join me, but never the Somalis. The kids are different though... I have a little 8 year old Somali friend who often stops by. She is the cutest little thing... :-) So maybe there is hope for the next generation? But you do talk to me in here...that's at least something... ;-) I did not mean to offend anyone by mentioning the virtual world. You see, I'm not just talking about reactions to MY comments, but how the Somali people in general speak to one another in here. I was really shocked the first time I visited this site, all the harsh words, so many spiteful, hostile, mean comments.... I really didn't expect it, and got totally knocked out for a moment. I really believed that you guys would support eachother more than you do.... Hm, but I guess I'm getting used to it now, huh? And I was not trying to give you any indirectly kicks here.. Simply because I have nothing to hide and I don't fear being direct... And shouldn't atheists be allowed to have freedom of speech too? Yeah, let the people choose based on their own instincts... What's wrong with being an atheist? NO, ANON, please NO comments from you this time, ok?? ;-))
WhitegirlNorway	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 11:40 am lol@Galool ;-))) No, thank God (?) we don't all look like swans... Me neither... ;-) And thank God (again??) for the differences.... That's what makes this world so exciting... I do believe in mix, it makes people more tolerant. And peaceful... Uhhh, the "white" question again.... Hmmm, I am not sure, maybe I wanted to see if I would get accepted in here...? What do you think??
Gabadha	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 12:29 pm Asalama Calekum walaalayaal Galool, that sounds like an indirect moral support for Pragmaticgal. It seems tlg's reasoning is making you uneasy too.I do not think your comments or that of any other person will do anything to the beardos and beardesses. The cores of their believes have been attacked systematically and unsytematically since the begining of time.do you have anything better to say Galool? tlg, abaayo, well said. I specifically liked your explanation of the prayer containing the five billars of Islam. Keeps up abaayo.
Passerby	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 03:50 pm Pragmaticgal i'm dumbstruck by your intelligence! What do you do for a living abaayo? TLG Hang in there little one. You are doing Just fine. I agree with Gabadha, your justification for your believes are also very impressive. I like how you explained the prayer concept. Galool You message lacks sincererity. Am I right in thinking that? Everyone Why waste precious time arguing about faith or the lack of it? It serves no purpose and everyone is sturborn in what they believe in no matter how hard you or I try in convincing them otherwise. My advice to all: Stop arguing about faith or the lack of it. You will achieve nothing after all is said and done.
fg	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 05:04 pm Galool. I see now you are modifying your quest of disenfranchising the Quran. Little by little untill you now declare islam is not how we interpret it. How nice of you!!. It is the norms of the people like you and PG to talk the way you guys talk. A common trait of a disbeliever is the thinking that he/she is better than others who associate with Allah. In your early days of islam, if you learned anything from it, you would have seen people without faith talking the way you talk to their prophets and making despiseful and disdainful comments about those who followed the message and the messengers. "11.25 And certainly We sent Noah to his people: Surely I am a plain warner for you: 11.26 That you shall not serve any but Allah, surely I fear for you the punishment of a painful day. 11.27 But the chiefs of those who disbelieved from among his people said: We do not consider you but a mortal like ourselves, and we do not see any have followed you but those who are the meanest of us at first thought and we do not see in you any excellence over us; nay, we deem you liars. Tell me Galool, what do you base your claim of pride and betterness than somalis?. They believe in Allah right?. And PG, how does she justify all these plasphemous comments about islam and and about Allah?. Gloves coming off really was touchy. Like we were scared or something about what she would say to us. We say to you and to PG what our prophet HUD said to his people when they bluffed (like you did) and tried to scare him: "11.55 Besides Him(Allah), therefore scheme against me all together; then give me no respite: Go ahead with all you got Old man together with your Allies and see if we are moved. I can hardly buy this offer of you not writing. BTW, I told you before that I am not the GOB here. How about Anon?. Or Common?. Better yet TLG?. I don't like the title. I am not a big sheikh or a small sheikh. I used to be a student long before I came here. But that is it. WhitegirlNorway. You are welcome. Somalis who visit and don't write are more in number than those who visit and write in these forums. As you observed in the real world, they are polite. Besides, this is not a mediated site. Everybody can write what he/she wants. That is why it reflects the moral decay of somalis in the public forum discussions. There is no responsibility on the part of the net owners to delete what is not good and can negatively reflect on Us. See how you were surprised at some of the behaviours we see here. Sometimes though, we might have arguments and differences on a lot of things. That would be normal. I don't think you were referring to that. Were you?. May be I didn't understand fully the point you were trying to make. I have a lot on my mind and at work so excuse my incoherence if I don't make a lot of sense. There might be a language barrier between you and somalis you said live close by to you. Feel free to talk about what you like with us. There is always ANON who would handle anybody who doesn't keep to the intellectual integrity of the discussion so I am not worried about you feeling a little unchallenged if I am not here or common or TLG or anyone who can put down his two cents. Take care. Gabadha. Ii warran walaal?. Thanks for the support. You were larking in the corner I see?. Why not join the group here and say something when you can?. Two lines will do the trick since Galool and Pg don't have much support for their cause?.
fg.	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 05:09 pm Passerby. If you were impressed by what PG wrote, I am not impressed at all and see a dark soul and one I would seek refuge from in Allah. As they say "Birds of a feather flock together" and in that case, You might as well join PG without being political about your intent.
Salma	Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 10:05 pm am lost completely!!! can you guys tell me what your talking about in here?........i'd like to join!
Galool	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 03:33 am FG I see you are still standing after the relentless battering you took from PG and Co. Your intellectual chin is obviously a darn side stronger than I thought. I never set out to disenfranchise anything. I merely pointed out my opposition to politicised Islam. Of course I said that the Quran, like other religious books, is a collection of human thought, fears and aspirations. That much is blatantly apparent to any average intelligence aardvark let alone a human being. You know it, so does Common, TLG and others(I am not sure about ANON though) I also accepted that the philosophy behind the Introducation of Islam and other faiths was a noble one. I never once deviated from that line. Consistency is my middle name!(eff modesty!) Moreover, I never had any problems with those who wish to take the word of the Quran, Hadith and the Seerah literally - provided they don't attempt to ram it down my throat. I will however strongly object to Islamists trying to rule my land and further erode the freedoms and the well-being of my already enfeebled nation. Just look at the Taliban if you want to know what I am talking about. For example, I would one day like to open a chain of pubs across the land. I used to be a businessman and I know how such an enterprise will be profitable in thirsty, secular Somalia. I have fond memories of sipping ice-cold beer in one of the bars overlooking Lido beach in Mogadishu, watching dusky Somali beauties shyly bathing on the beach, sensously trying to cover their assets with flimsy Diri's and failing all the time, while my feet was being lapped by the gentle waves of the Indian Ocean. Ah bliss! My idea of Heaven! And you little beards wish to take all that away from me so that YOU can go to your mystery heaven and frolick with countless dark-eyed wenches? No way Jose Anonymous I can stand the heat allright. It is just there hasn't been much of it coming from the Beardo side ever since PG parked her intellectual tanks in their yard and fired!
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 03:40 am Passerby - bypass - passedaway....Amen!
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 05:45 am FG, see what you did . You forced the guy to backtrack to his dark cage. Changing postion will damage the darn fragile self-pride. Galool, Somalia is destroyed by non-Islamist like you( waa u dhamaatay Liido iyo Jazzira). And when it comes back it will be too late for you to have paradise. So, be an old "average intelligence aardvark" and plan for your next stage. Whining about the past is not going to help.
Galool	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 06:17 am Anonymous What dark cage? Changing sides? What are on about? Somalia waa u dhamaatay, midaas run waaye. The proof is that for the first time in its history, your lot have an opportunity to practise their grisly business. Hands and legs of the poor are now amputated in the name of religion, using blunt, unsterilized machetes. There was a BBC report of an actual amputation the other day, and I am not ashamed to admit that I wept my eyes out. It crystallized for me just how depraved we've become, and what levels of of primeval barbarity we've sunk into. That is why I say never to the introduction of Sharia! I would rather Siyad Barre re-incarnated rather than accept the oppression of ignorant, barbaric, self-centred wadaads who want to bulldoze their way into their cosmic heaven with its Ribena rivers (for what ANON describes is certainly no wine) and ghostly concubines.
common	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 06:52 am Galool you are in rehash overdrive Not to take anything away from PG, but really she is not that exciting, she is pretty touchy and hellbent,i will give you that but the general drift of her ideas are redundant. Anyway in all logic you should not be a fan she distills reductionist theories,( what muslims MUST be like from her intrepation of the Qu'ran) by attempting to ascertain a verse from the Quran and then telling us, by "logic" what this must mean, you on the other hand argue that our beardo interpretation of the Quran should not be literal, yet her interpreation appears valid to you, simply becasue it is not our interpretation. Clearly if your mindset is one way, you will experience according to that mind set. If you expect simplicity, you will find simplicty around the corner . For example in her last post, she argued that humans did not have different thought processes and capabilities in a UN hold hands type way, albeit accompained by how successful she is, and on the go type socail dairy filled kinda girl, who just happens to spend an extraordinary amount of time on somalinet, (perhaps inbetween hectic social engagements. Allah knows best) is it not a case of mm and thinking you are a free thinker. Swings and roundabouts they call it, but please put a sock in the driven back by the forces of intelligent dialogue.
Haa	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 09:35 am ukgduifnvbifunvufinfmb
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hee	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 09:56 am hakikmain
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 10:43 am The amutated(if there is such thing) is 1 or 2. Do you know how many innocent people are shot on the head every month, mainly by robbers?. Don't worry for your hands, unless you gonna rob people and shot them on the head. Besides there is no reason to reject Islam because of this. The application of this law is subjective to the current situation of the offender and can be disputed within the circle of Islam.
fg.	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 11:17 am Galool. Don't be too funny now because I can't afford loosing the momentum here lol. You have a way with words. I hope you stop sensationalizing about the somali women. This is not a male dominated meeting ground and You can't envite everybody. A little decency wouldn't hurt your old cranky grey head(I am assuming about the grey hair here). You said: "I see you are still standing after the relentless battering you took from PG and Co." What PG did is shameful. Have you seen a wisdom in what she wrote except that Allah is this and he is obsessed with that?. She plasphemes. That is what she does. Not to mention about the projecttion of her insecurity on who differs her. She is nuts. May be has few loose bolts in the head to indulge myself in name calling. When you said <Your intellectual chin is obviously a darn side stronger than I thought>, did you mean you never thought of me as one who does have an intellect since I said I am a believer?. You said: <Of course I said that the Quran, like other religious books, is a collection of human thought, fears and aspirations. > Wrongo Galool. This is sneaky. I can't be fooled by "like all other books" deal of yours. The Quran is not like any other book on the face of the Universe. It is Unique and has Unique qualities to it. Nothing matches its guidance and decency. It teaches a perfect God that is legible, understandable, visionable to the healthy and the unbiased Mind of a human intellect. Those who are thirsty for a true diety can find their answer in It. The Quran speaks for itself: "21.106 Verily in this (Qurán) is a Message for people who would (truly) worship Allah." "17.9 Verily this Qurán does guide to that which is most right (or stable), and gives Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;" Not neccessarily guaranteed is that everyone will take interest in the Quran who reads it. We don't even need to mention those who got their information about the Quran from hostile sources to it. "17.89 And We have explained to man, in this Qurán, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!" BTW, we have been to the argument before that it doesn't have descrepancies like all other books of religions have. Actually, the Quran is the Only book that envites critics to itself. One needs an open mind to see the message. "4.82 Do they not consider the Qurán (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy." It is prudent then to say that your comment: "That much is blatantly apparent to any average intelligence aardvark let alone a human being." is one of your hoaxes and decietful comments to those who know nothing about the Quran. You cracked me up when you said a secular somalia will need to quench her thirst from your hellish pubs. You are XAASID numero uno to the somalis if that is what you wish for them. No way Jose which is pronounced "Hose" is the right answer(by the way it was funny). Your Idea of heaven won't hold ground, so you must as well scrub your plans for good. Say Galool, How much secular Education you had?. Moi Curious. Are you a teacher or somekind of professor?. I don't like somali professors like you because all the negative comments we hear from the media emminates from their hypocritic mouths. Anyway Odey, I have to sleep two hours before I drive to work. I have a good poem I would like to show you sometime. It is bookmarked in my computer at work. The Title is "The Old MAN". I think you will love it and has nothing to do with the topic. Behave. Anonymous. Galool is crazy Old Man. As they say "dhagax tuujin iyo taabasho waa isugu mid". He is serious about this pubs and beer drinking thoughts. He wishes all somalis to be like him. Immagine what we would end up?.
TLG	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 12:33 pm Gabadha, thanks sis. FG, I agree with Galool, that GOB thing is rightfully yours. Passerby, "little one"? I don't remember sharing any info about my age with you. And btw, "intelligence" is a relative term. Whitegirlnorway, remember how u were asking which one is my uncle? He is the tall skiny one. You know, with the green ma'awis (spelling). That is the one. Tell him I said salaams.
Galool	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 01:37 pm TLG That title has been removed from FG since he defended savagery and historical thuggery by condoning the destruction of the Budha temples in Afghanistan. I accussed him of lacking class and grace, and I stand by my accusation till he explains his inexcusable stance. How could any intelligent human being, whatever his/her faith could fail to be horrified by this monstrosity? These ignoramuses are committing crimes against humanity and history comparable to what Genghiz Khan's hordes did to the libraries of Baghdad and the Temples of India.
fais	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 01:48 pm Galool, What about the crimes against humanity and religion that the atheists in Soviet Union did?
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 02:14 pm ]]]]]] WHAT FREEDOM OF RELIGION MEANS TO THE SOVIETS [[[[[[[[[ (1/30/1989) [Kindly uploaded by Freeman 78756FOX] [The following excerpts were written by Jon G. Murray in the "American Atheist" of October, 1987. Jon Murray is the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who brought the successful lawsuit in the '60s to ban public school prayers. Murray's totalitarian ramblings in no way represent all atheists, but form an example of yet another group which, while apparently promoting some side issue, is actually advancing socialism.] "...If you [an atheist] are confronted by religionists and you show any sign of compromise or indecision, it will be used against you as they go for the jugular. This is why the Soviet Union has guarded its internal affairs so since the end of World War II. It has been attacked and harassed more than any other nation on earth, with the possible exceptions of China and Cuba... The adoption of a hard-line internal policy has been a survival necessity, as has the dedication of a large proportion of the Soviet economy to "defense."...If the West had left the Soviet Union alone, it might not have as much to harp about now concerning alleged human rights violations. "Knowing the background of the situation as I do, I am deeply concerned about new Soviet policies with respect to religion....They must feel, knowing that religion versus Atheism is one of two basic factors that keep the cold war going, that they need to show the West over and over again that they are being fair to the religious. Such a policy cuts no ice with me, as an Atheist. I think that the religous in any nation should get what they richly deserve for setting back all of human culture for thousands of years. "When a delegation of American Atheists last visited the Soviet Union, we had an interesting discussion with a high-level official with the Soviet Bureau of Atheism in Moscow. We asked if the official Soviet position was to allow parents or, particularly, grandparents to teach religion to their children, when they were being presented with public school instruction on Atheism? The answer was yes ... We then asked if it would be all right for that same grandmother to teach her grandchild about the "superior values of capitalism." The answer was a very firm no... We could not make our Soviet counterpart see that one was equally as dangerous to the overall future of his country as theother. "As an Atheist leader, I think that this ultimate sacrifice [allowing Western religion to invade the Soviet Union] is a mistake. Opening up to religion and democratization could be the fatal combination for socialism ... If the Socialist countries open up to religion, religion will destabilize them from the ground up, thus softening them up for the invasion of capitalism. The Soviet Union, China, and Cuba are basically poor, working-class countries, and they will be simply used as slave labor camps for capitalism. "Religion will move in and destroy the rational base of Socialism. Once that is accomplished, the idea of democratization is injected into the culture, thinning out and destroying the leadership, turning elections into popularity contests, and displacing the workers and denying them the right to direct participatory self-government. Then capitalism takes over the economic system, and production for use turns into production for profit, and workers become wage slaves." http://www.americandefenseleague.com/atheist.htm
Galool	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 03:03 pm anonymous You must be stark raving mad! What on earth has the Soviet Union got to do with all of this? And by the way, they never were as brutal towards religious places and buildings as you seem to believe. Sure they destroyed some churches in the early days of the revolution which was awful, but they never descended to the depravity of the Taliban. Never. On the contrary most of the old central Asian Mosques in places like Samarkand and Tashkent were actually preserved, and delicately renovated and looked after by the Soviet authorities. So there. And be careful about this bunch of crazy red-necks and weirdos you seem to admire, they may blow you dumb ass to smithereens. You see they don't like Nigs pretending to be rag-heads either!
fg.	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 03:20 pm Hey Galool. Slow down. I left some message under another thread for you. My goodness!, Now you telling us a different history about the soviet treatment of religous people and their religous places?. Where are the muslims of Balkans?. Millions of them gone never to be accounted for. I can do some digging in the archives of the Gulags for god's sakes. You were an atheist anyway weren't you?. I like the removal of the title from me. Thanks a bunch as Mad Mac said once. Listen, it would be great if I can be seated and submit some real treatments for you through the net. I like when you are this pissed off. I have this humongous list of tasks to accomplish before midnight. And people are yelling over the microphone. After Midnight or tommorrow. Don't forget to behave. I am counting on Anonymous to disprove your claim of innocence for the atheist Vodka loving soviets. A whole balkan nations were sent to the graves just because they were muslims. Bulgaria and Romania alone buried millions of muslims for no reason other than their identity. Also gone are their mosques except there is one standing in the main capital of Bulgaria which was recently refurbished after muslims around the world started revisiting their history. Getta go...
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 04:38 pm Ken Young: However, did Bush ever say that atheists are less of Americans, than Christians? Jason Harmon: From: NETOPRWA@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Wayne Aiken) Subject: Why Atheists should not vote for George Bush With the 92 election looming, here is a brochure detailing exactly why atheists or anyone who genuinely values separation of church and state, should NOT vote for George Bush: -begin quoted material- ISSUE ''Can George Bush, with impunity, state that Atheists should not be considered either citizens or patriots?'' The History of the Issue Madalyn O'Hair When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush. Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are Atheists? Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Atheist community. Faith in god is important to me. Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are Atheists? Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church? Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on Atheists. On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a law-suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade Atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place. Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing? Murnane: It's bullshit. Sherman: What is bullshit? Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit. Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue. Murnane: You're welcome This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not considered to be bullshit by the federal judge before whom it is pending. During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God." After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987 statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating that substantively Bush stood by his original statement. "As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government." American Atheists had not asked Bush to either "unnecessarily" or even "necessarily" encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for the insult. Many Atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7, 1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray, the president of American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification of and an apology for his statement that Atheists "should not be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Bush ignored the letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush. Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House stationery. He stated that the president "appreciated your taking the time to write and your willingness to share your thoughts" but that "due to heavy commitments on his official calendar" the president could not meet with representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to remark that "bigots" must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of Atheists as being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund replied again on White House stationery--stating "We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous correspondence." Indeed it has and that position is that George Bush is a bigot. On February 21, [1990], American Atheists wrote to every member of the United States Congress asking that body to pass a resolution condemning discrimination against Atheists by any elected or appointed official of government. The offered resolution read: No person in public life may be free to impugn the patriotism of any minority group because of that group's opinion in respect to religion. President George Bush is herewith censured for his public expression of August 27, 1987, at which time he stated: "I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." You don't need to guess how many senators and representatives answered that letter: there were none. At this point, American Atheists sent a list of the members of Congress to all of its membership and asked each one to write or telephone their congressmen. Hundreds of angry letters and telephone calls were received at the American Atheist GHQ during the next several months as it became obvious that the elected Congress was composed entirely of politicians too damn yellow to challenge Bush. In just one campaign incident, American Atheists was able to teach thousands of the nation's top-notch citizens that their government did not give a damn about them. This exercise added appreciably to the malcontentedness in the nation and rightly so. American Atheists then sent every single columnist in the United States a packet of information-- from Pat Buchanan to Jim Fain. Only one was courageous enough to write a lengthy article on the matter: Tom Tiede. And the newspapers in which Tiede was syndicated did print his column taking the president to task. A little later, the CNN feature program "Larry King Live" broadcast a quarter-hour interview with Mr. Robert Sherman, as he detailed the perfidy of President Bush. When George Bush appeared on the campus of the University of Texas on May 19, 1990, American Atheists placed a full-page advertisement in the Austin American-Statesman detailing the above and demanding an apology and an explanation. The founders of American Atheists, a thirty-year-old organization, are both honorably discharged veterans: Richard E O'Hair, U.S. Marines (totally and permanently disabled); and Madalyn O'Hair, Women's Army Corps. Both served in World War II. On December 23, 1990, in Chicago, Illinois Mr. Robert Sherman met with Ed Derwinski, the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs, to discuss exclusion of American Atheists from veteran's groups which have been chartered by the United States Congress. Mr. Derwinski said he would do "absolutely nothing" about the discrimination. On January 3, Mr. Sherman crossed paths with Ed Derwinski again at the Illinois inaugurations. He asked Mr. Derwinski, at that time, what American Atheists could do to have the Bush administration take an interest in the problem of discrimination against American Atheist veterans. Mr. Derwinski's response was: "What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in God. Get off our backs." When Mr. Sherman was in Washington, D.C., on another issue on March 20, 1991, he again met with Mr. Derwinski, who, on this occasion, shouted that the Atheists should "get off his back," that the Bush administration would do nothing for them, and that they would need to "sue" to end discrimination against them. To add pointed insult to injury, the City of Chicago Commission on Human Rights refused to permit American Atheist Veterans to appear as a group in the Fourth of July "Welcome Home" parade for the veterans of Desert Storm in that city. In the corridors of American history, Atheists have loomed large: Clarence Darrow, Margaret Sanger, Mark Twain, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, Albert Einstein, California's Governor Culbert L. Olson, Thomas Edison, the great botanist Luther Burbank, and James Smithson, founder of the Smithsonian Institution. The list is long. American Atheists ask that you write to George Bush, President of the United States, at The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500 and ask him for an apology to this group which comprises 9 percent of the population. I. Group Profile Name: Atheism Definition: Atheism is a) the disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity, or b) the doctrine that there is neither god not any other deity. (1) The word comes from two Greek word roots: a, which means "not," and theos, which means "god." (2) History:Atheism has its roots in both Eastern and Western ancient cultures. While the philosophers of ancient Greece were debating the characteristics of their gods, the Indian Vedas were also questioning the power and origin of the feities of their belief system. These debates, in both cultures, eventually led to questions concerning the actual existence of any gods. These questions did not gain widespread recognizition until much later, however. Atheism as it is known today largely developed in Western culture, and had its first great entrance onto history's philosophical stage during the Enlightenment. (3) Early Christian thought set some of the groundwork for later atheist arguments. Christian thinkers debated the characteristics of God and tried to prove, through reason, the existence of God and the existence of the Christian idea of God. Anslem, for example, in the Ontological Argument for the Existence of God, argued that God is that which there is nothing greater, and since a real God is greater than an imagined one, then God must exist. Other Christian thinkers did not accept Anselm's reasoning here, but offered other arguments on why God had to exist. Aquinas tried to present God as a "first mover," as one who set the world in motion, and without whom nothing would exist. He argued that objects and their existence proved the existnce of its creator. (4) Theologians continued to debate similar issues for hundreds of years. Nobody ever proved the existence of God, but many pointed out weaknesses in the theories of their fellow Christians. These exposed weaknesses would later prove to be valuable ammuntion for the atheist argument.(5) During the Enlightenment, emprical knowledge, reason, and the scientific method all had an impact on society. Mankind came to trust only those things that could be tested and studied. Without evidence, a theory was useless. Mankind first applied these processes to science and mathematics. Eventually, people began to use the same processes to posit the question of God's existence. When this eventually occurred, many people decided that not enough evidence existed to support the idea of the existence of a god or supreme being. These people were the first modern atheists. (6) Some of the great philosophers of the nineteenth century, such as Karl Marx, not only thought that no evidence existed to support the belief in a god, but also believed that religion was a creation of society. They thought that society created religion in order to supress man's desire to seek a good life by promising him a better after-life.(7) Others, like Sigmund Freud, believed that religion was something that comforted people and kept them somewhat in order. (8) With the endorsement of some of the greatest minds of the century, atheism became a notable philosophy of life for the first time in the ninetenth century. Although atheism has significantly affected relgions and society at large since its great popularity in the nineteenth century, atheists consist of only a fractioin of each society in the world today. The greatest threat to atheism right now is the discrimination of atheists by members of other religious groups. Much like religious cults and sects, atheism is one of the biggest tests of the U.S. Bill of Rights. An individual's right to freedom of religion must logically include an individual's right to no religion. Even today, society does not seem willing to accept atheists. The Tennessee State Constitution, in violation of its own Bill of Rights, did not allow atheists to hold public office until the 1960s. President Bush was scolded for making the comment that atheists should not be considered citizens of the United States. (9) Texts: According to Tom Kunesh, "Writings by atheists themselves can be classified into three main areas: 1) evidential atheism, or anti-theism, from confirmed anti-religionists like Voltaire and Baron d'Holbach, both of the 18th century; 2) the atheism of suspicion, founded in the critique of religion from the social sciences of economics and psychology promoted by the 19th century luminaries Marx and Freud; and 3) religious atheism, as old as daoism and Buddhism, places atheism within the sphere of the secular world and religious relativism."10) Some important atheist texts are: Selected Anti-Theism Texts Valtaire, Candide Selected Critque Of Religion Texts Sigmund Freud, The Future of an Illusion Karl Marx, Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Law Ludwig Feuerbach, Principles of the Philosophy of the Future. Selected Relgious Atheism Texts Tom Kunesh, The Shaman Atheist :: The Dao of Atheism Cult or Sect: The goals of the Religious Movements Homepage are to (1) provide resources for objective understanding, (2) encourage appreciation of religious diversity, and (3) promote religious tolerance. The opportunity to pursue these goals is diminished when the language employed in public discourse silently carries highly negative presuppositions. The concepts "cult" and "sect" have rather precise and technical meanings when used by social scientists who study religion, and they are employed free of normative or evaluative presuppositions. In popular discourse, the concepts usually imply highly negative connotations that cloud objective understanding while promoting prejudice (i.e. pre-judgment). The misunderstandings resulting from confusion of social science and popular meaning of these concepts has led us to the conclusion that the goals of this page are not well served by using the concepts "cult" and "sect" to identify specific groups profiled on these pages. We do discuss the meaning of these concepts elsewhere on this site. Indeed, a major segment of the Religious Movements Homepage is devoted to the examination of cult controversies. Topics include popular culture and technical uses of the concepts cult and sect, the explosive issue of brainwashing or mind control, and an in depth examination of anti-cult and counter cult movements. We encourage readers to explore these resources. Toward the end of promoting religious tolerance and appreciation of diversity, we encourage the use of concepts that are free of implicitly negative stereotyping. In place of "cult" and "sect," we recommend concepts like "new religious movements," "religious movements," or, simply "religious group." Size of Group: According to the 1994 World Almanac, there are: 161 million atheists in Asia 56 million atheists in the former USSR 18 million atheists in Europe 3.2 million atheists in Latin America 1.3 million atheists in North America .5 million atheists in Oceania .3 million atheists in Africa((11) for an approximate total of 240.3 million atheists in the world. (Total from adding 1994 World Almanac figures) Group Organization: Different atheists follow their beliefs in different ways. Some form or join organizations for atheists, while others do not even associate with other atheists, keeping their beliefs relatively unknown to society. Organizations like American Atheists and Atheists United are engaged in debate about atheist and theological issues, and they seek to promote the rights and beliefs of atheists. [For an update on the disappearance of Madalyn O'Hair in 1995, see this news story on the conviction of Gary Paul Karr on four counts of conspiracy]. Others join atheist groups that act as a social network, as a group that tries to dissuade others from "blind faith" in religion, or as an ideology/religion in and of itself. Faith Atheism, for example, declares itself to be a "religion," although it does not believe in the existence of any God. Some people participate in and enjoy the ritual and social network of the churches in which they were raised, and yet they do not believe in any god. The only thing that links all atheists together is their common lack of belief in the existence of any god.(12) \| Profile \| Beliefs \| Related Ideologies \| Links \| Definitions \| Bibliography \| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- II. Atheist Beliefs/Rationale All atheists share the common belief in the non-existance of any god or supernatural power. They do not believe that enough substantial evidence exists to prove the existence of God. Some atheists believe that religion is "the opiate of the people," that it makes society worse, and that a popular belief in no God will make society better.(13) They see religion as an institution that divides people, and professes hypocritical and inconsistent doctrine. Other athiests believe that religion serves a positive role in society, but do not believe that it professes the truth. Some atheists, such as Freud, believe that belief in a god is a result of a common psychological dependancy upon a figure who monitors and protects people at all times, much like a parent does with a child. (14) Feuerbach, considered by many to be the father of modern atheism, believed that God was a mere reflection of mankind back upon itself. He thought that people's beliefs about God reflected what they viewed as good and just. (15) Science has had a great impact on atheist thinkers. Along with advancements in science came a dependace on reason and logic. Atheism's growing popularity in the nineteenth century was a direct result of this dependance. Many atheists then believed that science, and not religion, would join together all humanity (16). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- \| Profile \| Beliefs \| Related Ideologies \| Links \| Definitions \| Bibliography \| III. Related Ideologies Agnosticism What is now known as agnosticism took its first form in the time of the pre-Socratic philosophers, in the fourth century B.C. Pyrrho and Sextus Empericus believed that nothing could be known with absolute certainty, especially questions pertaining to God and the supernatural. The term "agnosticism" was invented by Thomas Huxley around 1869. He took the negative Greek prefix a and added to it the word gignoskein, which means "to know." Agnosticism began to take its present-day form around the same time. huxley did not believe in the Judoe-Christian idea of God, but neither did he deny its existence. He felt that no substantial evidence existed to support the existence or absense of a God or supernatural power. Huxley's belief system merely revolved around the idea that humans do not know the answer to such questions as: does (a) God exists? how does one know God if it does exist? why does evil exist/ why do bad things happen to good people? Agnosticism's main criticism of atheism is that it discoutns religions because they believe, with no substantial evidence, in Gods. Atheists, at the same time, believe in the absence of God, but have no substantial evidence to back this notion. Unlike atheists, who believe that God does not exist, agnostics do not deny the existence of God, but rather believe that no substantial evidence has been found to disprove the existence of God. Agnosticism in the twentieth century doea not have the same number of dedicated adherents as it did in the nineteenth century, but it has greatly influenced and permeated society and other religions. (17) According to Webster's Concise Multimedia Encyclopedia 1995, Agnosticism is: "Belief that the existence of God cannot be proven; that in the nature of things the individual cannot know anything of what lies behind or beyond the world of natural phenomena. The term was coined 1869 by T H Huxley. Whereas an atheist denies the existence of God or gods, an agnostic asserts that God or a First Cause is one of those concepts (others include the Absolute, infinity, eternity, and immortality) that lie beyond the reach of human intelligence, and therefore can be neither confirmed nor denied." (18) Secular Humanism Humanist philosophies were held at bay by the political powers of the churches of Western Europe during the dark ages. Any views in opposition to that of the church were looked down upon, and individuals who expressed these views of opposition were subjected to banishment, torture, and/or execution. The humanisit views were not even taken into consideration until the Renaissance period when music , philosophy, and literature were prevalent. Churches began to be criticized during the Enlightenment period, due to the development and advancement of science. During the nineteenth century, the free thought movement in Western Europe and the United States helped open the way for more criticism of religion. Those people who rejected faith or superstition no longer had to worry about persecution by governements or churches. During the twentieth century, scientists, philosophers, and progressive theologians "classified humanis as a non-theistic religion which would fulfill the human need for an ordered, ethical/philosophical system to guide one's life, a spirituality without the supernatural." Over the past thirty years, "secular humanism has been used to describe the non-religious life stance" of these individuals. Because of a series of Supreme Court decisions (McCollum v. Board of Education, Engel v. Vitale, Murray v. Curlett, Abington v. Schemp) in the 1960s that ruled against organized prayer in school, and further separated the insitutions of church and state in the United States, society as a whole has become more secularized, focusing more on science and reason, instead of religion, for answers to major questions. (19) According to The Council for Secular Humanism Web Site, Secular Humanism is a term which has come into use in the last thirty years to describe a world view with the following elements and principles: A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith. Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions. A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general. A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it. A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us. A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children. (20) V. Definitions Below is a list of definitions that may be useful to the reader when studying atheist related texts. Agnosticism: the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.(21) Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity; the doctrine that there is no deity.(22) Belief: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing; conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some group or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.(23) Faith: belief and trust in and loyalty to God; belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion.(24) Free Thought: unorthodox attitudes or beliefs; 18th century deism.(25) God: the supreme or ultimate reality; a person or thing of supreme value.(26) Heresy: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church doctrine.(27) Infidel: a unbeliever with respect to a particular religion; one who acknowledges no religious belief.(28) Religion: the service and worship of God or the supernatural; a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.(29) Skepticism: an attitude of doubt or a disposition of incredulity either in general or toward a particular object; the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain.(30) Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods.(31) \| Profile \| Beliefs \| Related Ideologies \| Links \| Definitions \| Bibliography \| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- VI. Bibliography Angier, Natalie. 2001. "Confessions of a Lonely Atheist," New York Times Magazine. (Jan 14) pp. 34-38. Freud, Sigmund. 1961. The Future of an Illusion. New York: W.W. Norton and Company. James, George Alfred. 1986. "Atheism," The Encyclopedia of Religion.Vol. I, p. 478-490. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co. Mish, Frederick C.,Ed., 1988. Webster's Ninth New College Dictionary. p.112. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster Inc. Neusch, Marcel. 1982. The Sources of Modern Atheism. p. 37, 39, 62-63. Ramsey, NJ: Paulist Press. Passantino, Bob and Gretchen Passantino. 2000. "Imagine There's No Heaven: Contemporary Atheism Sepaks Out in Humanist Manifesto 2000," Christian Research Journal. 22:3 (12-21). Schilling, S. Paul. 1969. God in an Age of Atheism. p. 118 - 129. Nashville, TN: Abington Press. Shinn, Roger L. 1995. "Atheism," Encyclopedia Americana. p. 337. Danbury, CT: Grolier Incorporated. Stark, Rodney. 1999. "Atheism, Faith, and the SocialScientific Study of Religion." Journal of Contemporary Religion. 14/1:41-62 (January). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Endnotes Mish, Frederick C. Ed., Webster's Ninth New College Dictionary, Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster Inc. 1988. p.112. James, George Alfred, The Encyclopedia of Religion. New York:Macmillan Publishing Co, 1986; pp. 478-490. Ibid. pp. 484-490. Ibid. pp. 484-490. Ibid. pp. 484-490. Neusch, Marcel, The Sources of Modern Atheism. Ramsey, NJ. Paulist Press, 1982. pp. 62-63. Ibid. p.37. Neusch, 1982, pp. 62-63. Ibid, p.37. Ibid, p. 39. Shinn, Roger L., "Atheism," Encyclopedia Americana, Danbury, CT: Grolier. 1995. p. 337 Webster's Concise Multimedia Encyclopedia 1995, http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/atheism/webster.htm Ibid. Mish, 1988, p.65 Ibid, p.112 Ibid, p.142 Ibid, p. 446. Ibid, p.491 Ibid, p.525 Ibid, p.566 Ibid, p.619 Ibid, p.995 Ibid, p.1103 Ibid, p.1222
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 07:52 pm http://www.jewsformorality.org/select/selected_commentary_13b.htm Idols for destruction "Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak." (Habakkuk 2:18) "You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) The "civilized world" is in an uproar over an order by Afghanistan's ruling Taliban to destroy pre-Islamic statues of Buddha dating as far back as the 7th century. Leaders of the world's top industrialized countries, meeting in Trieste, Italy, for an environmental conference, professed shock at the ruling and issued a statement urging the Taliban not to go ahead with their "deeply tragic decision," wire services report. Even China's state-run Buddhist Association has called for a stop to the destruction of two huge Buddhas, which have been featured in television stories. China, which cared nothing for the human lives destroyed in Tiananmen Square a decade ago, conducts forced abortions and regularly jails or harasses anyone thought to be a threat to the Beijing regime, now wants to use its immoral authority to rescue things made of stone. What happened to the world's too-brief outcry against what the Taliban are doing to women? Female doctors cannot practice medicine. Female educators cannot teach children. All women must don the Burqua, a horrid head-to-toe covering that allows them to barely see through a screen over their faces. If they go out in public, a male relative whose permission must first be sought for even the simplest journey, must accompany them. Why doesn't the world step up the pressure on the Taliban to loosen their grip on women? Instead, it pretends to be noble by attempting to save statues. Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad is a Judge of the Shari'ah Court of the United Kingdom. In a March 2 press release concerning the Taliban order, he said: "It is prohibited upon Muslims to keep idols at home, to maintain them, to trade with them or to earn anything from them whether they be statues, antiques or heritage. It is also prohibited for Muslims to keep idols in the public arena regardless of what their purpose is and such idols must be destroyed..." The destruction of idols is not new, either in Islam, Judaism or Christianity. Each religion offers chapter and verse to justify ridding a nation of objects of worship other than the God to whom they should be paying attention. The point is not to justify such destruction from a cultural standpoint. The point is that an increasingly secularized Western culture has little understanding of religious beliefs and practices. In America and Europe, where the dollar, celebrity and material things are the focus of worship, any attempt to "purify" a people is regarded as retrograde and anti-culture. We in the United States worship our own idols, which we refuse to destroy. We worship materialism. We worship self, comfort and convenience. We acquire and we abort and we day care and we divorce and a few of the disturbed shoot up their schools. Eminem, with his lyrics of hate, is the idol who evolved from our worship of these false gods. He screams his wrath at us because of the way he and his generation were treated. He is a rebuke to our false worship and our lifeless idols. According to the United Nations Web page, there are currently 34 armed or simmering conflicts within or between nations. The government of Sudan, dominated by Arab Muslims, is engaged in a civil war against Black Christians and Animist people living in the Southern part of the country. The international media has almost nothing to say about this persecution, which includes officially sanctioned murder and slavery. According to the publication "Foreign Policy in Focus," 2 million Sudanese - nearly 8 percent of the population - have lost their lives to war or famine since 1983. Millions more have been displaced. The conflict there is Africa's longest-running civil war. But the West is upset only by the destruction of statues, not the destruction of people. There is a problem here but it's not about objects made of stone. The problem is in our hearts - hearts that have turned to stone because we worship false gods of our own making. ©2001 Tribune Media Services http://www.jewsformorality.org/select/selected_commentary_13b.htm David ben-Ami Why I Am Ashamed of My Fellow-Jews With the usual exception of the Orthodox, most Jewish Americans espouse a secular faith that can justifiably be called a "gutter religion" "Jews in America may belong to Jewish institutions, send their children to Sunday schools for religious instruction, proudly identify themselves as Jews � but their religion, for the most part, is only Jewish in its externals. At the core it is secular humanist." �Irving Kristol, The Future of American Jewry What's wrong with secular Jews? Have you ever had an uncle who was a hopeless alcoholic, who constantly embarrassed you in public? That's how I feel about my secular relatives in the American Jewish community. Every time I hear about America's "culture war", guess who is on the side of the devil � my secular Jewish relatives: the American Jewish Congress, Hadassah, the ADL, and all the rest. Abortion, "gay rights", pornography � they're all for it. On the other hand, they vigorously oppose any moral, religiously-based initiative in public life: the Ten Commandments, school prayer, creation as an alternative to evolution � they're all against it. As an Orthodox Jew, I was taught that our mission was to be a "Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation.... A light unto the Nations." Are these lost Jews truly the descendents of that great people who entered into a solemn covenant with G-D in the desert of Sinai? How could we have sunk so low that we now are an example of utter moral depravity before the nations of the world. "American Jews, alert to Christian anti-Semitism, are in danger of forgetting that it was the pagans � the Babylonians and the Romans � who destroyed the temples and twice imposed exile on the Jewish people." �Irving Kristol, ibidem My secular Jewish cousins think that the surest guarantee of their continued safety and prosperity in America is a completely secularized "public square", with every trace of religion removed. They are making a grave error. The suspension of the Bible's moral barriers made possible all the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin. Both the Third Reich and the Soviet State identified the Bible and its teachers as primary enemies. If G-D is really "dead", by what authority do we say that any particular practice is prohibited or permitted? The greatest threat to the Jewish community today is not anti-Semitism but intermarriage at a rate that exceeds 50%. No community can survive if it is persuaded � or even if it suspects � that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe. "I reluctantly conclude, atheists cannot be good citizens." �Richard John Neuhaus, Can Atheists be Good Citizens?
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 08:02 pm Evolution Myths vs. Intelligent Design http://www.jewsformorality.org/select/selected_commentary_13b.htm Should Students Be Taught the Truth about Evolution? Jonathan Wells / 1 Mar. 2001 Added 1 March 2001 The Unhappy Evolution of Darwinism Nancy Pearcey / 24 Feb. 2001 Added 6 March 2001 Mother Fights Evolution Curriculum Julie Foster / 20 Feb. 2001 Added 20 Feb. 2001 New PA Education Standards Accused of Sneaking Creationism into Classrooms Martha Raffaele / 17 Feb. 2001 Added 19 Feb. 2001 My Life After Darwin John R Morgan, M.D. / 17 Feb. 2001 Added 18 Feb. 2001 Can the Kansas School Board Decision Be Defended? P. Johnson and G. Easterbrook (audio) / 21 Sept. 2000 Added 12 Feb. 2001 In God's Country Lauren Kern / 14 Dec. 2000 Added 23 Dec. 2000 Darwin Dethroned Kevin Michael Grace / 18 Dec. 2000 (predated) Added 15 Dec. 2000 The Lynching of Bill Dembski Fred Heeren / 15 Nov. 2000 Added 3 Dec. 2000 Science and Design Wm. H. Dembski / Oct. 1998 Added 4 Dec. 2000 http://www.jewsformorality.org/select/selected_commentary_13b.htm http://convertstoislam.org/Jews-believe-in-Allah.htm Jews for Allah Table of Contents Chapter 1: Accepting the Unity of Allah Uniting Jews and Christians (Christ not killed) Has God removed the Curse of Babylon? Muhammad and the Jews Why are Women converting to Islam ? Israel ; "Muslims better to Jews than Christians" Did the Jews pray as Muslims do ? Is the Qur'an the Bible's Messiah ? also Discoveries in the Jewish Bible What Non-Muslims Say About Prophet Muhammad Jews were protected in Muslim lands The Prophecy of Moses about the Holy Prophet The Verification of the Quran by the Torah Testamonies Video & textual Did Muslims rebuild the Temple Mount ? Is the Jewish Bible or Quran anti-Semitic ? Jeremiah and Ebed-Melech Allah in the Jewish Bible Chapter 2: Jews in the Quran Qur'anic Stories: Abraham Qur'anic Stories: Job Qur'anic Stories: Adam Qur'anic Stories: Jonah Qur'anic Stories: David Qur'anic Stories: Joseph Qur'anic Stories: Hud Qur'anic Stories: Lot Qur'anic Stories: Jesus Qur'anic Stories: Noah Qur'anic Stories: Solomon Qur'anic Stories: Zachariah Chapter 3: The Miracles and Challenges of the Qur'an The Bee The Water The Universe The Mountain Human skin Life on Other Planets ? The Ocean Attitude towards Knowledge The Bible, The Qur'an, and Evolution Science Related Links Chapter 4: Jews not for Judaism Different types of Jews (the modern list) Rabbis against Zionism Jews are not a race ? Jews At War With Israel Talmud on Jews Israel and Ethiopian Jews Jews who helped the nazis difference between a Semite, a Hebrew, an Israelite, and a "Jew" ? Chosen people ? Jews persecuting Jews Arab Jews Jews Are not Israelites ? Chapter 5: Miscellaneous How to reply to Christians (updated) Muslims Contribution to Medical Science Islamic Medicine Muslims Contribution to Astronomy Muslims Contribution to Math Jews and Arabs genetic brothers ? coming soon: a Jew for Allah an apostate ? , The Love of God , Is Moses an Arab Muslim ? , Can a Jew Know ? , How long do you have to wait for a messiah ? , list of rabbies who claimed to be messiahs , Copy or correction ? and more..... http://www.jewsforjesus.org/
Anonymous	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 08:05 pm http://convertstoislam.org/JewsforAllah.htm
fg.	Friday, March 16, 2001 - 10:05 pm Anonymous. Your efforts are well appreciated. I definitely will bookmark these links you gave so that they become handy when I need them in the future inshallah. Thanks a lot. Jazakallaahu kheyran. George push's take on atheists is really good. The guy needs few debates about trinity. Just to throw enough doubts into his mind so he rethinks about it.
Anonymous	Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 06:32 am Testimonies of Buddhists who turned to Allah Britan to Buddha to Islam Buddhist converts to Islam Buddist becomes Muslim Buddist woman discovers Islam Zen Buddhist to Islam http://convertstoislam.org/testimoniesofBuddhistwhobecameMuslim.html
Galool	Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 06:50 am Oh No we've been discovered by the Xerox Man! Fatwa! Fatwa! Fatwa! All the Fundas of the world Unite and for Xuur's sake(lots of them) issue a copying-banning fatwa on this geezer! What is wrong with you guys? I thought you boys loved banning things (art, sex, beer etc) so why not ban Boredom? But then you only ban the good things in life don't you? Killing is OK, oppressing your sister is desirable, Mutilation is fine, Slavery is welcome - the moment you get near half-pint of lager or think about a bit of nookie you are done for! Eternal flames and a diet of human flesh and puss! Never understood that one! But then never really understood Funda mentality. How could they like and even "worship" such a Deity who seems to have got his priorities all wrong?
Anonymous	Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 08:05 am The manners and morals of Muhammad "We sent you not (O Muhammad), but as a Mercy for all creatures." The noble Qur'an, Al-Anbiya(21):107 In order to understand the message of Islam, it is first necessary to acquaint ourselves with the prophet of Islam. You cannot, as the popular saying goes, separate the message from the messenger. It is therefore only natural to wish to study the life of Muhammad (pbuh), his manners and his morals, and to see how Islam manifested itself in his person as a living example for all Muslims till the end of time. Abu Hurairah described him as follows: "He was of medium build, closer to being tall. His skin was extremely white, his beard was black, his mouth was pleasant, his eyebrows were long, and his shoulders were wide" Anas ibn Malik said: "I never touched silk or any soft fabric equal to the softness of his palm, and I never smelled a scent more pleasing than his." Hind ibn Abi Hala (the son of Muhammad's wife Kadijah) described Muhammad (pbuh) as follows: "The Messenger of Allah was of consecutive sorrows, continuous thought, never finding rest, long in silence. He did not speak without cause. He spoke with his full mouth (was not arrogant), and spoke concisely. His speech was just, with neither excess nor deficiency. He was not pompous, nor denigrating. He exalted all blessings no matter how small and never belittled a single one. He would never praise his food nor criticize it. He was never angered by matters of this life nor that which was associated with it. However, if justice was transgressed nothing could stand up to his anger until justice was established. He never became angry for his own self nor sought retribution for himself. If he gestured, he did so with his whole palm. If he was amazed, he overturned it. If he spoke, he struck with his right palm the inside of his left thumb. If he became angry he turned away, and when he was happy he lowered his gaze. The majority of his laughter was [restricted to] smiling." Ali ibn abi Talib described Muhammad (pbuh) as follows: "He was not vulgar nor did he condone vulgarity, and he was not one to shout in the market place. He did not reward evil with evil, rather, he would forgive and overlook. He never in his life struck anything with his hand except when he was fighting in the name of Allah. He never struck a servant nor a woman, and I never saw him taking revenge for an injustice dealt him, except if the prohibitions of Allah were transgressed. For if the prohibitions of Allah were transgressed he was among the strongest of them in anger. He was never given a choice between two matters but he chose the simplest of the two. If he entered into his home he was a man like any other; cleaning his own garment, milking his own goat, and serving himself. He would guard his tongue from that which did not concern him. He would attract them (the people) and not repel them. He would ennoble the noble of the people and charge them with their affairs. He was wary of the people and guarded himself against them but without depriving them a warm smile or fitting conduct. He would inquire after his companions and would ask the people about their affairs. He would encourage that which was good and strengthen it, and he would discourage that which was evil and undermine it. He was balanced and consistent. He would never be neglectful that they would not learn neglect and grow indifferent. He had a provision for every occasion and he never fell short of justice nor exceeded it. The closest people to him were the best among them, and the best among them in his eyes were the most comprehensive in advice. The highest of them in stature with him was the best among them in looking after the people and assisting them. He would not rise nor sit down without praise [to God]. If he visited a gathering he would sit wherever the group ended (and not at their head) and he encouraged the same. He would give all those sitting with him their just due [to the extent that] they would each feel that none was more important to him than them. If someone were to sit with him or come in search of a favor he would be patient with them until they (the guest) would be the one to leave. Whoever came to him with a request was never turned away except with that which they had asked for or with a kind word. His cheerfulness and good manners encompassed them all such that he became a father to them and they all became equal in rights. His gatherings were those of knowledge, humbleness, patience, and integrity. In them there would be no raising of voices nor transgressions of prohibitions. They would not expose one-another's errors, but would be equal, encouraging each-other in the fear of God. In them, they would respect their elders, be merciful to their children, give preference to those in need, and protect the stranger." He continues: "He was continually smiling, gentle in manners, soft in nature. He was not severe, harsh-hearted, loud, abusive, or miserly. He would disregard that which he disliked, and no one ever despaired of him. He never responded to disparagement or evil words. He forbade upon himself three things: Argument, arrogance, and that which did not concern him. And he relieved the people of three: He would not degrade any among them or abuse them, he would not search after their honor or private matters, and he would not speak except in matters which he hoped to be rewarded for. When he spoke his attendees would lower their heads as if birds had alighted upon them. Once he finished they would speak. They would not vie with one-another in his presence to speak, but when one would talk in his presence the rest would listen until he finished. Speech in his presence was that of the first among them. He would laugh with them, and wonder with them. He had patience with the strangers when they were gruff in speech and requests, to a degree that his companions would fetch them to him. He would say: 'If you see someone in need, fetch him to me.' He would not accept praise except from those who were balanced and not excessive. He would not interject into someone's speech unless they transgressed, in which case he would either rebuke them or else leave. He was the most generous of heart, truthful of tongue, softest in disposition, and noble in relationship. He who first set eyes upon him feared him, but he who associated with him loved him. Those who described him would say: 'I have never seen before of after him anyone similar to him, peace be upon him' " With God: Whenever Muhammad (pbuh) commanded his followers to observe a command or prohibition of God he was always found to be the most observant of this command or prohibition. He was the most devout in worship to God among them, and no one could equal him in worship, and in patience in the worship of God. Al-Mugeerah ibn Shooba narrated: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, used to stand in prayer until his feet became swollen and cracked. He was then asked: 'Hasn't God forgiven you that which is before you and that which is behind you?' He (Muhammad, pbuh) replied: 'Should I not be a thankful servant?' " (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Aisha (pbuh) narrated: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) used to fast till one would say: he never stops fasting, and he would abstain from fasting till one would say:t he never fast." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Anas said: "You would never like to see him standing in the middle of the night in prayer but you would, and never would you like to see him sleeping but you would" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) The companions narrated that when a hardship or trial befell him he would pray. He would say "My comfort has been placed in prayer" (Narrated by Al-Nissai) With Life: Muhammad (pbuh) was the most far removed among his people from the love of money or wealth. He encouraged his followers to be industrious, make an honest living and discouraged them from seeking charity. He did not condemn wealth and the wealthy, however, he feared for his followers and encouraged them to not allow it to corrupt them or obsess them. Muhammad (pbuh) himself could have been the most wealthy man in the history of Arabia, however, he preferred to live simply and use his wealth in that which pleased God. As the leader of the Islamic nation, he received great wealth, however, he hated for this wealth to remain in his home for more than a day without having distributed it in charity. At times he would distribute tens or hundreds of thousands of "dinars" at a time as soon as he received them. He lived according to his sayings: "O my Lord, indeed, true life is only the afterlife" and "What have I to do with this life? The similitude of me and this life is as a traveler who stopped to take shelter in the shade of a tree and then arose and left it" Urwah narrated that Aisha (the wife of Muhammad, pbuh) said to me, "O my nephew! We used to see the crescent, and then the crescent, and then the crescent, in this way we saw three crescents in two months and no fire (for cooking) used to be lit in the houses of Allah's Messenger (pbuh). I said, "O my aunt! Then what use to sustain you?" Aisha said, "[These two]: dates and water." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Abu Tharr narrated that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said, "If I had gold equal to the mountain of Uhud, it would not please me that any of it should remain with me after three nights (i.e. I would spend all of it in Allah's cause) except what I would keep for repaying debts." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Jabir ibn Abdullah narrated: "The messenger of Allah was never asked for something and then he said 'no' (he never refused a request)" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) With People: "By the grace of Allah, you are gentle towards the people; if you had been stern and harsh-hearted, they would have dispersed from round about you" The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):159 Even with all of his concerns and obligations, Muhammad (pbuh) never became unmindful of his people. He had a special place in his heart for each one of them and he was known among them for his soft-spokenness, his generosity, his tolerance, and his friendliness. He would joke with his companions, sit and talk with them, play with their children and sit them on his knee. He would respond to the call of the free man or the slave, or the young girl or the poor. He would visit the sick on the opposite end of the city and he would attend their funerals. He would accept the people's apologies and their excuses, and he was the most humble among them. Abdullah ibn Al-Haritha narrated: "I have never seen anyone who smiled more continuously than the Messenger of Allah (pbuh)" (Narrated by Al-Tirmathi) Usamah ibn Zayd narrated: "The daughter of the Prophet (pbuh) sent (a messenger) to the Prophet (pbuh) requesting him to come as her child was dying. However, the Prophet (pbuh) returned the messenger and told him to convey his greeting to her and say: "Whatever Allah takes is for Him and whatever He gives is for Him. Everything with Him has a limited fixed term (in this world) and so she should be patient and hope for Allah's reward." She again sent for him, swearing that he should come. The Prophet (pbuh) stood up, and so did Sa'id ibn Ubadah, Mu'ath ibn Jabal, Ubay ibn Ka'ab , Zayd ibn Thabit and some other men. [When he arrived,] the child was brought to Allah's Apostle (pbuh), his chest heaving. On that the eyes of the Prophet (pbuh) began shedding tears. Sa'd said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is this?" He replied, "It is mercy which Allah has lodged in the hearts of His slaves, and Allah is merciful only to those of His slaves who are merciful (to others)." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Anas ibn Malik narrated that "the Prophet (pbuh) used to mix with us (the children) to the extent that he would say to a younger brother of mine, 'O abu-Umayr! What did the Nughayr (a kind of bird) do?' " (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Abu Dawood narrated that the Messenger of Allah would say: "Let none of you transmit to me [evil news] about my companions, for I like to meet with you with a pure heart" Ibn Masood narrated that Muhammad (pbuh) said to a group he sent to teach and advise: "Be lenient and do not make [this religion] difficult. Bring glad tidings and do not repel" AbuMalik al-Ash'ari said: "The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: 'Cleanliness is half of faith, and [saying] 'Praise be to God' fills the scale, and [saying] 'Glory be to God' and 'Praise be to God' fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light, and charity is proof [of one's faith], and patience is a brightness, and the Qur'an is a proof for or against you. All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, some setting themselves free and others destroying themselves.' " (Narrated by Muslim) With His Family and Children: Aisha, the wife of Muhammad (pbuh) said: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) used to patch his sandals, sew his garment and conduct himself at home as anyone of you does in his house. He was a human being, searching his garment for lice, milking his sheep, and doing his own chores." (Narrated by al-Tirmathi). She also said: "He would patch his garments and sole his sandals" She was once asked: "How was he with his family?", she responded: "He was in the service of his family until it was time for prayer, at which time he would go and pray" Anas narrated: "I never saw anyone more merciful with children than the Messenger of Allah (pbuh)" (Narrated by Muslim) Abu Hurairah narrated that: "The Messenger of Allah never denigrated any type of food; if he liked it he ate it, and if he disliked it he left it alone" (Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim) Generosity, Clemency and Conduct: Abdullah ibn Amr narrated: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) neither spoke in an insulting manner nor did he ever speak evil intentionally. He used to say, 'The most beloved to me among you is the one who has the best character and manners.'" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) AbuHurayrah narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most Perfect believer in respect of faith is he who is best of them in manners." (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Qatadah ibn Malik narrated that Zayd ibn Ilaqah related on the authority of his uncle, Qatadah ibn Malik, that the Prophet (pbuh) would supplicate: "O Allah, I seek Your protection against undesirable manners, acts, and desires." (Transmitted by Al-Tirmithi.) Anas ibn Malik narrated: "I was walking with the messenger of Allah (pbuh) and he was wearing a mantle of Najran with a thick border. A Bedouin met him and pulled the mantle so violently that I saw this violent pulling had left marks from it's border on the skin of the neck of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh). And he (the Bedouin) said: Muhammad!, command that I should be given out of the wealth of Allah which is at your disposal. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) turned to him and smiled, and then he ordered for him a provision." Anas narrated: "Eighty men from the men of Makkah descended upon the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) from the mountain of Al-Taneem, in [full] armor, with the intent of doing battle with him. He (Muhammad, pbuh) captured them peaceably and then did not kill them" (Narrated by Muslim) A pagan by the name of Zaid ibn Sa'ana came to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) in order to collect a debt. When he drew near Muhammad (pbuh) he wrenched him by his clothes violently, exposing his shoulder, and spoke rudely at him. Finally, he said: "You sons of AbdulMuttalib are all a procrastinating lot." Immediately, Umar ibn Al-Khattab leapt at him chastising and rebuking him harshly, all the while the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) looked on smiling. Then the Prophet (pbuh) said to Umar: "He and I were in need of other than this O Umar; You should have commanded me to excel in my repayment, and have commanded him to excel in his request for repayment." He (Muhammad, pbuh) said: "There [still] remains in his term three [days]" He (Muhammad, pbuh) then commanded Umar to see to his recompensation and to increase him twenty 'saa' (weights) as compensation for the terrorization he had endured (from Umar). This man later became a Muslim" (Narrated by Al-Bayhaqi, ibn Habban, and Al-Tabarani) Anas ibn Malik said: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) had the best disposition amongst people. He sent me (when I was a child) on an errand one day, and I said: By Allah, I would not go. I had, however, this idea in my mind that I would do as Allah's Apostle (pbuh) had commanded me to do. I went out until I happened to come across children who had been playing in the street. In the meanwhile, Allah's Messenger (pbuh) came there and he caught me by the back of my neck from behind me. As I looked towards him I found him smiling and he said: Unays, did you go where I told you to go? I said: Allah's Messenger, yes, I am going. Anas further said: I served him for nine years but I know not that he ever chastised me about a thing which I had done why I did that, or about a thing I had left as to why I had not done that." (Narrated by Muslim) In another narration, he said: "I served the Prophet (pbuh) at Madinah for ten years. I was a boy. Every work that I did was not according to the desire of my master, but he never said to me: Fie!, nor did he say to me: Why did you do this? or Why did you not do this?" (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Anas also said: "No one was more beloved to us than the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), [however], if we saw him we would not stand up for him for we knew how much he disliked [for us to do so]. And on one occasion someone called to him saying: 'O best of mankind ...' He replied: 'That is Abraham, peace be upon him' " (Narrated by Muslim) Adi ibn Hatim al-Ta'ee came to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to ask about Islam, so Muhammad (pbuh) invited him to his home. When they sat down, a small girl brought a pillow to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), however, he placed it between him and Adi and sat on the ground. Adi later said: "[When I saw that] I knew that he was not a king" It was also narrated that Muhammad (pbuh) once said: "I am but a servant, I eat as the servant eats, and I sit as the servant sits" Muhammad (pbuh) would tie his own camel, feed his own animal, eat with the servants, knead dough with them, and carry his own groceries from the market. With Parents AbuHurayrah narrated that a man came to Allah's Messenger (pbuh) and said, "O Allah's Messenger! Who is the most deserving person of my good companionship?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your mother." The man said, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your mother." The man said, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Your father." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) A man came to AbudDarda and said, "I have a wife whom my mother commands me to divorce," he replied to him that he had heard Allah's Messenger (pbuh) say, "A parent is the best of the gates of Paradise; so if you wish, keep to the gate, or lose it." (Narrated in Mishkat Al-Masabih, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah transmitted it.) AbuBakrah said: The Prophet (pbuh) said thrice, "Should I inform you about the greatest of the great sins?" They said, `Yes, O Allah's Messenger!" He said, "To join others in worship with Allah and to be undutiful to one's parents." The Prophet (pbuh) then sat up after he had been reclining (on a pillow) and said, "And I warn you against giving a false witness," and he kept on repeating that warning till we thought he would not stop." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Anas ibn Malik narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said, "The worst of Kaba'ir (the greatest sins) are: to join others as partners in worship with Allah, to murder a human being, to be undutiful to one's parents and to make a false statement," or said, "to bear false witness." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Defense of the Boundaries of the Religion: The day Ibraheem (the son of Muhammad, pbuh) died, there was an eclipse of the sun. The people began to say: "The sun has eclipsed for the death of Ibraheem", whereupon the messenger of Allah (pbuh) became angry and chastised them saying: "Verily, the sun and the moon are two signs of the signs of Allah, they do not eclipse for the death of anyone nor for his birth, so if you see that (an eclipse) then supplicate to God, reverence His name, pray and give charity" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim) On another occasion, a man said: "God and You (O Muhammad) have willed this" regarding a certain matter. The Messenger of Allah then rebuked him saying: "Have you made me equal to God?" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim) For the same reason, another time, a man was delivering a speech and said: "He who obeys God and His messenger is indeed wise, and he who disobeys Allah and his messenger has lost." Upon hearing this, the Messenger of Allah said: "You are the most evil of speakers" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim) Note: Muhammad (pbuh) did not want those listening to the speech to think that God and His messengers are in any way equal. Muhammad (pbuh) also used to say: "Do not over-praise me as the Christians over-praised [Jesus] the son of Mary. For I am only His servant, so say: 'Allah's servant and messenger' " (Narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim) His Bravery and Bashfulness: Many people believe bravery and bashfulness to be self-contradictory opposites of one-another, however, in Muhammad (pbuh) we were given the example of a true balance between these two attributes. It was narrated that Muhammad (pbuh) was the most bashful of all mankind, and if he disliked a matter we (the companions) would know that from his face (his expression). Aisha (pbuh) narrated that whenever he was informed of an error committed by someone he would never say: "Why did 'such' the son of 'such' do such-and-such", rather, he would say: "Why do some people do (or say) such-and-such?" In this manner he would caution them, but he would not mention the man by name. (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Regarding his bravery Ali ibn Abi-Talib, one of the bravest young men in the Islamic nation said: "In the heat of battle, [when the passions burned strongest,] we would seek shelter behind the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), for there was none closer to the enemy than him, and you had seen me on the day of Badr, battle of we were taking shelter behind the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) and he was the closest among us to the enemy" (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Al-Bukhari narrated upon the authority of Anas: "The Messenger of Allah was the best of mankind, and the most generous among mankind, and the bravest among mankind. The citizens of Al-Madinah awoke in a panic one night [to a sound], so they rode out towards the sound. On their way they met the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) returning, having beat them to the sound, saying: 'Do not worry, do not worry' and he was riding a horse of Abi-Talha with no saddle (in his hurry to reach that sound), around his neck hung his sword." During the first hours of the battle of Hunain, when many of the Muslims forsook Muhammad (pbuh) and fled the battle field, Muhammad (pbuh) stood firm in the field of battle as if nothing had happened saying: "I am the Messenger, I lie not!. I am the son of Abdul-Muttalib." General Mercy Ibn Abbas narrated: "A man had laid down his sheep (in preparation to slaughter it) and then he went about sharpening his knife. Upon seeing this, the Messenger of Allah rebuked him saying: 'Do you want to kill it twice? Wouldn't it have been better for you to sharpen your knife before laying it down (so as not to terrorize it)?' " (Narrated by Al-Tabarani and Al-Hakim) Shaddad ibn Aws said: "Two are the things which I remember Allah's Messenger (pbuh) having said: 'Verily Allah has enjoined goodness to everything; so when you kill, kill in a good way and when you slaughter, slaughter in a good way. Every one of you should sharpen his knife, and let the slaughtered animal die comfortably.' " (Narrated by Muslim) Muhammad (pbuh) also used to command mercy for all animals such that they are fed well, watered well, not forced to carry too heavy a burden, and not tortured or maimed for one's enjoyment. AbuHurayrah said: "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'While a man was walking on a road he became very thirsty. He found a well, went into it, drank, and came out. [Upon exiting he met] a dog panting and eating the dirt out of thirst. The man said: 'This dog has become stricken with the same degree of thirst which had stricken me.' He went down into the well and filled his shoe and then held it in his mouth until he climbed out and gave the dog water to drink. Allah thanked him (for his good deed) and forgave him.' They said, 'O Messenger of Allah, are we rewarded for taking care of beasts?' He said, 'There is a reward [for you] in every creature with a moist liver.'"Narrated by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, and Malik) AbuHurayrah said: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: 'A woman was punished because of a cat. She neither provided it with food nor drink, nor set it free so that it might eat the insects of the earth.' " (Narrated by Muslim and Al-Bukhari). Sahl ibn Amr said: "The Messenger of Allah passed by a camel who's stomach quite touched it's back (from lack of food). Upon seeing this he said: 'Fear God in these unspeaking animals! Ride them [while they are] in good health, and eat them [while they are] in good health' " (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Regarding slaves, when Muhammad (pbuh) became the messenger of Allah the people of his land had become accustomed to having countless slaves and usually treated them quite harshly. During the period of his prophethood he worked diligently to do what he could to cut down on their numbers. Islam closed most of the doors leading to slavery and encourages the freeing of slaves in many ways. For those people who continued to posses slaves they were encouraged to treat them fairly and with mercy. AbuDharr said: "The Prophet (pbuh) said: 'Feed those of your slaves who please you from what you yourselves eat and clothe them with what you clothe yourselves, but sell those who do not please you and do not punish Allah's creatures.' " (Narrated by Abu-Dawood) Ma'rur narrated that: "I saw AbuDharr wearing a Burd (garment) and his slave too was wearing a Burd, so I said (to AbuDharr), 'If you take this (Burd of your slave) and wear it (along with yours), you will have a nice suit and you may give him another garment.' AbuDharr said, "There [once] was a quarrel between me and another man whose mother was a non-Arab and I called her bad names. The man complained about me to the Prophet (pbuh). The Prophet (pbuh) said, 'Did you abuse so-and-so?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Did you call his mother bad names?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'You still have the traits of (the pre-Islamic period of) ignorance.' I said, '(Do I still have ignorance) even now in my old age?' He said, 'Yes, they (slaves or servants) are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So the one under whose hand Allah has put his brother, should feed him from what he eats, and clothe him in what he wears, and should not ask him to do anything beyond his capacity. And if ever he asks him to do a hard task, he should help him with it.'" (Narrated by Al-Bukhari) Abdullah ibn Umar said: "An A'arabi (desert Arab) came to the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) and said: 'O Messenger of Allah, how many times should I forgive my slave every day?' The Prophet (pbuh) replied: 'Seventy times.' " (Narrated by Al-Tirmathi and Abu-Dawood) Abdullah ibn Umar also narrated: "The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: 'Pay the worker his [due] wages before his sweat dries' " (Narrated by ibn Majah) Some Quotes: The Encyclopedia Britannica states: "....a mass of detail in the early sources show that [Muhammad] was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men." (Vol. 12) George Bernard Shaw said about him: "He must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness." (The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936) Gandhi says in Young India: "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." Edward Gibbon and Simon Ockley speaking on the declaration of Islam write: "I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, AND MAHOMET* , AN APOSTLE OF GOD' is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honor of the Prophet has never transgressed the measure of human virtues; and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." History Of The Saracen Empires, London, 1870, p. 54 Michael H. Hart in his recently published book on the ranking of the 100 most influential men in history writes: "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels." The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History, M.H. Hart, New York, 1978, p. 33 Jules Masserman, an American psychoanalyst, says: "Leaders must fulfill three functions: 1) Provide for the well being of the led, 2) Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and 3) Provide them with a set of beliefs � People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander and Caesar on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all time was Muhammad, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same." Time magazine, July 15, 1974, article titled "Who were history's greatest leaders?," this quote by Jules Masserman. "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life." Reverend Bosworth Smith, Muhammad and Muhammadanism, p. 242 "Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle" Arabia, D. G. Hogarth, p. 52 "He was sober and abstemious in his diet, and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source ... In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equality, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints ... His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family." Mahomet and his successors, Washington Irving, pp. 332-334, 343 "His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad � Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget that conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty."
PragmaticGal	Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 10:46 am TLG, <PG, Allah doesn't punish anyone who didn't recieve the message of Islam. If the Mayan, didn't hear of Allah, the Quran and Mohammed, then Allah does not punish them. I wouldn't worry for the Mayan who may/or may not have heard about Allah or Muhmmad or the Quran if I were you. I would be worried for me who heard about Allah, Muhammad and the Quran but thought was too "intelligent" to fall for such childish stuff. considering all your claims of knowing Islam and the Quran, I'm supprised you haven't come across the Ayah that talks about Allah not punishing anyone who has not recieved the message.> I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post, but could you show me the ayah where Allah condones Mayan polytheists/pagans who haven't received the "message"? Thank you in advance. P.S. And if Allah "does not punish them", where do they go when they die? Heaven? P.S.S. Your snippy comment re my assertion that I think I'm too "intelligent" falls short of real honesty: I have said a million times that intelligence has nothing to do with faith, but people like you automatically assume atheists look down on them for being stupid. I would decribe myself as too skeptical and unwilling to follow current mores--note that every Somali I ever met was a Muslim, and more than 85% of Americans believe in God, so how exactly am I imitating and being influenced by popular culture?
Anonymous	Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 12:44 pm The Basis for Muslim Belief by Gary Miller Dilemma of Applying Reason Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over He can be very frustrating to us as he asks Why? If you put a h1ife beyond his reach, he wants to know, Why? When you explain it is sharp, he asks "Why?" And so you explain, in order to cut fruit, and he asks, Why? And so it goes It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first to set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first. What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which they say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof. Setting Standards The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine. In particular I will apply this to the Qur'an. Ask a thoughtful Christian why he is Christian, and he will usually reply, "The miracle of Resurrection." The basis for his belief being that about two thousand years ago a man died and he was raised from the dead. That is his miracle, his 'touchstone', because all else depends on that. Ask a Muslim, "Well, what is your miracle? Why are you a Muslim? Where is your miracle?" and the Muslim can go over and take his miracle off the shelf and hand it over to you because his miracle is still with us today. It is the Qur'an; it is his 'touchstone' Sign of God While all the prophets have their signs, Moses had the competition with the magicians and the Pharaoh, Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and so on, one sign was given to the last of the prophets. According to the Muslims, this is the Qur'an. And this one Sign is still with us. Does not that after all seem fair, that if prophethood is to end that the last prophet should bring something that stays with us so that, in fact, a Muslim who takes his religion seriously suffers no disadvantage to Muslims who lived fourteen centuries ago? Those people who kept company with the Prophet had access to no more of the necessary information than we have today. They had the Qur'an. That was the sign for them. It is still a sign to us today, the same miracle. Well, let us test the Qur'an. Suppose that if I say to a man, "I know your father." Probably he is going to examine the situation and see if it seems likely that I have met his father. If he is not convinced he will start asking me questions like: "You know my father, you say, is he a tall man? Does he have curly hair? Does he wear glasses?" and so on. If I keep giving him the right answers to all these questions, pretty soon he is going to be convinced. "Well I guess this man did meet my father like he said." You see the method. The Big Bang Theory Here in the Qur'an we have a book which claims that is author is one who was present at the beginning of the universe, at the beginning of life. So, we have a right to address that author and say, "Well, tell me something prove to me that you were there when the world began, when life began." The Qur'an gives us an interesting statement. It reads: "Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? Will they not then believe?"21:30) There are three key points here. First of all it is the disbeliveers who are mentioned as being those who would see that the heavens and the earth were one piece and then parted and would see that all life cam e to be made from water. As it happens the universally accepted theory of the origin of the universe is now the Big Bang theory. It maintains that at one time all of the heavens and the earth were one piece, the 'monoblock' as it is called. At a particular point in time, this 'monoblock' burst and it continues to expand. This gives us the universe we have today. This was a recent discovery, a recent confirmation. The Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded only a few years ago to those who confirmed the Big Bang origin of the universe. It was only about two hundred years ago that Leeuwnhoek and others perfected the microscope and discovered for the first time that living cells are composed of about eighty percent water. Those Nobel Prize winners and the Dutchman who invented the microscope were not Muslims. And yet they confirmed the vital statement that at one time the universe was one piece, that life was made from water, just as this verse says" "Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? Will they not then believe?"21:30) Well, this sounds like an answer to the question we stated with when we ask the author: "Tell me something that shows me you were present when the universe began when life began?" Taking a Stand Everyone must be committed to something. You have to put your foot down some place. It is impossible to be neutral all time. There has to be a point of reference in the life of any thinking individual. You have to take a stand somewhere. The question, of course, is to put your foot down in the right place. Since there is no such thing as a proof of a proof and so on, in order to find the right place to put one's foot down, to take a stand, we have to search and find that place and it is by a method that I hope to illustrate here. It is a question of finding a point of convergence. You see, we search for truth in many places and we begin to know that we are succeeding in finding the truth if all our different paths start to converge; they start to come together at the same point. If we are examining a book, looking for evidence of divine origin, and we are led to Islam, this is one path. If at the same time we are examining the words of all those who were called prophets and we find ourselves led to Islam, we have a firmly grounded basis for belief. We started looking for truth in two different places and ground ourselves going down the path headed for the same destination. No one ever proves all things. We have to stop at some point being satisfied with our standards as I have mentioned earlier. The point is, in order to take a stand and to be sure it is in the right place we want to examine all the evidence around us and see where does it lead us and anticipate this point of convergence; to say it looks like all things are pointing to this place. We go to that place and then look at the data around us to see if it fits into place. Dos it now make sense? Are we standing in the right place? The Expanding Heavens Let me first show more of our examination of the Qur'an, and then an examination of some words of prophets to find this point of convergence. In chapter fifty-one, verse forty seven, it is mentioned that the heavens are expanding. As I mentioned earlier, this is in connection with the 'Big Bang' origin of the universe, as it is usually called, and it was in 1973 that the Nobel Prize was awarded to three men who were confirming that, after all, the universe is expanding. The comments of Muslims over the centuries on this verse which speaks of the heavens doing exactly that is ver interest. The wisest among them had stated that the words are very clear, that the heavens are expanding, but they could not imagine how that could be so. But they were content to leave the words as they were, to say: "Allah knows best" The City of Iram The Qur'an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of Iram has been unknown to history, so unknown that even some Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment for feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur'an as being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a city. In 1973 the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay tablets ever assembles. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus contains more clay tablets that are more that four thousand years old than all other tablets combined from all the other sites. Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National Geographic of 1978 which confirms that in those tablets the city of Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the people of Iram. So here in these comes confirmation of the fact that, after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it was. How did it find its way into the Qur'an, we might ask? Those Muslims who may have offered their commentary trying to explain away this reference that they were uncomfortable with, were outsmarted by the author of the Qur'an. They would attempt it. Primarily their actions would involve trying to produce evidence that the author of this book had a primitive understanding of the world around us. The Smallest Matter For example, there is a word which is translated to usually in Arabic as zarrah. This is usually translated 'atom' and it is usually thought of in Arabic as being smallest item available at one time. Perhaps the Arab thought it was an ant or a grain of dust. Today the word usually translated as 'atom'. Those who would outsmart the author of the Qur'an have insisted that, well, the atom is not after all the smallest piece of matter because in this century it has been discovered that even the atom is made of still smaller of matter. Is it then possible to outsmart the author who chose to use this word? Well, there is an interesting in chapter ten, verse sixty one, which speaks of items the size of a zarrah, (atom) or smaller. There is no possibility in this subject someone is going to say a new discovery has outdated the words of the Qur'an on the issue of the size of matter or the ultimate particles. The verse talks about items the size of a zarrah (atom) or smaller. Forgiveness Speaking of outsmarting the author of the Qur'an, the Islamic point of view is that when a man embraces Islam, his past is forgiven from the very beginning. This has been the invitation to Islam: come to Islam and all is forgiven from the past. But consider this. There is only one enemy of Muhammad, peace be upon him, who is mentioned by name in the Qur'an: one Abu Lahab. In a short chapter of this book, he is condemned to punishment for his sins. As it happens, the man himself was alive for many years after this revelation. He could therefore have finished Islam very easily. He needed only to go to the Muslims to announce his conversion. They had in their hands the revelation which said that this man is doomed to punishment. He could have gone to Muslims and say: "I accept Islam, am I forgiven or not?" He could have confused them so much as to finish this small movement because he would have been pointing out to them that they were now in confusion. The policy was instant forgiveness of the past, but their own revealed scripture announced that he was not forgiven. As it was, Abu Lahab died without accepting Islam. Predictions In fact, the Qur'an confidently predicted a number of things only a few years before they came to pass. The fall of the Persian Empire, for example, was predicted in spite of the fact that it had just suffered a serious military reverse. The evidence was all to the contrary. But in the chapter entitled Rom, the fall of the Persian Empire who were recently victors over the Romans was predicted. When all the Muslims in the world could meet in one room, the revelations were already discussing their future successes. In confidence, they were planning for the day when they would be in charge of the city where they were forced at that time to hide for their very lives. Evidence of Divine Origin Some people may like to find any number of things in the Qur'an. But an honest method in examining this book, looking for evidence of the Divine origin, is to take things at their value, to look for things that are clear and to look in those places where we are invited to look. Remember the passage that I quoted earlier: "Have not the disbelievers seen..." This a common phrase of the Qur'an: "O Man, Have you not seen." The invitation is to examine the evidence in these places. We are doing the sensible thing if we examine the words used to look for the doubted meaning and to find evidence of the Divine origin. Each one of us is an expert on something. One does not have to have a degree in a particular subject to decide that now, "I can take my expertise to the Qur'an and see what I can find." We all now something for some from our own experience and life. I heard a story, several years ago in Toronto, of man who was given the Qur'an to read. The man was a member of the merchant marines who spent his life on the sea. When he read a verse in the Qur'an describing the wave on the ocean, "waves within waves and the darkness between," he was surprised because the description was just what he knew the situation to be. When he returned the Qur'an to the man who gave it to him to read, he asked him (because he was completely ignorant of the origins of Islam): "This Muhammad, was he a sailor?" Well, of course, he was quite surprised to know that the man spent his life in the desert. So he had to ask himself: "From where did he get this knowledge of what looks like on a stormy sea?" We all know something that we can be confident of and if we can turn to the Qur'an to read what it says about that subject, we are asking for confirmation of our belief in the Divine origin of the book. The Two Phenomena A friend of mine from the University of Toronto, had experience of dealing with a man who was doing his doctorate in psychology. He chose as his subject: "The Efficiency of Group Discussion." He suggested a number of criteria as to what constituted an efficient discussion. He graphed the process; that is achieved a measure of the efficiency of all groups in the discussions according to an index by his system., On his graph he indicated the progress made by the discussion groups of various sizes. The interesting thing that happened which he did not expect to find when he began his project was that, while there were some difference between the size of an given group and how well they did in discussions, he was surprised to find that groups of two were completely off his scale. In other words, when two people sit down to discuss something, they were so much more efficient than any other size of group that it went completely off his scale of measurement. When my friend heard about this, something went on at the back of his mind. My friend, being a Muslim, thought there was something familiar here about this idea. The psychology researcher was not a Muslim. He was debating with himself on changing the topic of his thesis. Should he call it 'The Phenomenon of Two' or 'The Two Phenomena'? He was so surprised at his discovery. Meanwhile, my friend found that there is a verse in the Qur'an, and he found it for himself on the same night, which speaks on discussions and the size of groups and how efficient they are. And maybe we should not be surprised to find that it is the groups that are two in numbers that do the best in achieving results. The verse in the Qur'an reads, concerning discussion groups, that when discussion the Qur'an one should sit alone and reflect on its meaning or discuss it in groups of two. Use and Mention of Words For myself, as I said everyone knows something for sure or has an interest and experience in life; my interest is in mathematics and logic. There is a verse in the Qur'an which says: "This a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded."11:1) Which tells me that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information. This directed my attention to a particular mathematical subject, a logical subject, and I examined the Qur'an to see if I could find something of what I knew to be the case. A revolution in logic has occurred in the last one hundred years, primarily over the difference between use and mention of words. A structure of logic seemed to be in danger of collapsing about a hundred years ago because it came to the attention of the people who studied these matters that the structure was not quite sound. The issue involved 'self-reference' and the use and the mention of words which I will explain briefly. Aristotle's law of the 'excluded middle' was the statement that every statement is either true false. About a hundred years ago, somebody pointed out that the law of the excluded middle is a statement and is therefore not a law after all. It could just as well be false as well as true. This was a tangled knot for the logicians to untie until they came to understand the difference between the use and the mention of a word. When we use a word, we consider its meaning. When we mention a word we are discussing the word itself. If I said Toronto is a large city, I mean Toronto, that place, is a large cit. If I say Toronto has seven letters, I am talking about the word 'Toronto'. In the first case I used the word and in the second I mentioned the word. You see distinction. Jesus and Adam Connecting these ideas and the idea that the Qur'an composed of verses that are perfected and then expounded for us, consider the verse which says: "The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59) It is very clear that what we have in the statement is an equation. This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. But more than that, I got to consider the use of the mention of words. The words are used clearly enough. Jesus is like Adam and by Jesus and Adam, we mean those two men. But what about the mention of the words? Was the author aware of the fact that if we were considering the words as words themselves, this sentence also read that 'Jesus' is something like 'Adam'. Well, they are not spelt with the same letters, how can they be alike in this revelation? The only answer came to me fairly quickly and I took a look at the index of the Qur'an. The index of the Qur'an has been made available only since 1945. This book was the result of years of work by a man and his students who assembled a book which lists every word in the Qur'an and where it can be found. So, when we look up the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. So, following up on this idea, I continued to examine the index looking for every case where something was set up as an equation, where the likeness of something was said to be the likeness of some other thing. And in every case, it works. You have to example a verse which reads: "The likeness of this who reject our signs is as the likeness of the dog." (7:176) Well, the phrase is Arabic for 'the people who reject our signs' could be found in the Qur'an exactly five times. And so is the Arabic word for 'the dog' (al-kalb). And there are several instances of exactly the same occurrence. It was some months after I found this for myself that a friend of mine, who is continuing this investigation with me, made a suggestion that there are also some places in the Qur'an where one thing is said to be not like another thing. As soon as he mentioned this up to me, we both went for the index and had a quick look at several places where on thing is said to be not like another thing and counted their occurrence in the Qur'an. We were surprise and maybe should not have been to find that, after all, they do not match up. But an interesting thing does happen. For example, the Qur'an makes it very clear in the verse that trade is not like interest. The two words will be found six times for on and seven for the other. And so it is in every other case. When one thing is said to be not like another, they over for a difference of one time. It would be five of one and four of the other, or seven of one and eight of another. Good and Evil There is one interesting verse which, I felt, spoke directly to me from right off the page. It mentions two words in Arabic, al-khabeeth (the evil), and al-taib (the good). The verse reads: "Say, the evil and the good are not comparable, even though the abundance of evil will surprise you. So be mindful of your duty to Allah, O Man of understanding that you may succeed."5:100) Well, I had a look at those two words in Arabic, the evil and the food, and found it in the Qur'an that they both occur seven times. Yet the verse here is saying that they are not comparable. I should not expect to find that they occur the same number of times. But what does the rest of this verse say? "The evil and the good are not comparable. The abundance of the evil will surprise you" and it did for there were too many of them. But it continues: "So be mindful of your duty to Allah, O Man of understanding, that you may succeed." So press on. Use your understanding and you will succeed. That is what the verse said to me. Well, I found the answer in one verse further on where it reads: "Allah separates the evil from the good. The evil HE piles one on top of the other, heaping them all together." Here is the solution to the difficulty. While we have several occurrences of al-taif (the good), according to the principle of this verse, evil is separated from good and is piled one on top of the other and heaped all together. We can not count them as seven separate instances. Occurrences of Words A favorite difficulty, or supposed difficulty, which critics like to cite or have cited in the past years concerning the Qur'an is that, apparently to their thinking, the author of this book was ignorant because he advised the Muslims to follow the lunar instead of the solar year. The critics say the author was unaware of the difference in the length of years, that if one follows twelve lunar months one loses eleven days every year. The author of the Qur'an was well aware of the distinction between the length of the solar year and the lunar year. In chapter eighteen, verse nine, it mentions three-hundred years and gives their equivalent as three-hundred and nine years. As it happens, three hundred solar years is equal to three -hundred and nine lunar years. Let us go back to my original scheme of the occurrence of words in the Qur'an. The Arabic word for 'month', shahar, will be found twelve times in the Qur'an. There are twelve months in a year. If we find twelve months, how many days should we expect to find? The word in Arabic is yaqum, and as it happens you will find that the word occurs three-hundred and sixty five time in the Qur'an. As a matter of fact, the original issue which had me interest in looking up the occurrence of months and days was this distinction between the solar year and the lunar year. Well, for twenty-five centuries it has been known that the relative positions of the sun, moon and earth coincide every nineteen years. This was discovered by a Greek by the name of Meton, and it is called the 'Metonic' cycle. Knowing this, I looked again to the index for the word 'year', sanah and found, sure enough, that it occurs in the Qur'an nineteen times. Perfect balance of Words Now, what is the point of this perfect balance of words? For myself, it shows the author was well aware of the distinction between using words and mentioning words, a fine logical point. But more than that, it indicates the preservation of this book. After giving a lecture on the subject of the Qur'an , I touched on some of these subjects and a questionnaire from the audience afterwards said: "How do we know we still have the original Qur'an. Maybe pieces of it have been lost or extra parts been added?" I pointed out to him that we had pretty well covered that point because since these items, the perfect balance of words in the Qur'an, have come to light only in this generation, anybody who would have lost the portion of this book, hidden some of it, or added some of their own would have been unaware of this carefully hidden code in the book. They would have destroyed this perfect balance. It is interesting to note too that, well, such a thing might be possible to organize today by the use of a computer to coordinate all words so that whatever thought you might have as to a meaning of a sentence or however you might construe an equation out of a sentence, you could check for yourself and the book will always have the balance of words. If that were possible today, if it were possible fourteen centuries ago, why would it be done and then left hidden and never drawn to the attention of those who first saw this book? Why it would be left with the hope of the author who contrived this, that maybe in many centuries someone will discover it and have a nice surprise? It is a scheme that does not make sense. Best Explanation We are told in the Qur'an that no questionnaire will come to the Muslims with the question for which a good answer has not been provided, and the best explanation for whatever his question. This verse says: "For everything they say we are given something to go back to them and reply." (25:33) We looked again to the index of the Qur'an and we found the word, qalu (they say), is found three hundred and thirty-two times. Now, what would be the natural counterpart? The Arabic word, qul, which is the command 'say' and you will find at the index it also occurs three hundred and thirty-two times. Origin of the Qur'an An interesting feature of the Qur'an is that it replies to critics as to its origin. That is, no one has yet come up with suggestion as to where this book came from which is not commented on within the book itself. In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions that over the centuries there has been many theories as to where this book came from. There conclusion: today, no sensible person believes any of these theories. This leaves the Christians in some difficulty. You see, all the theories suggested so far , according to this encyclopedia, are not really acceptable to anyone sensible today. They are too fantastic. Where did the book come from? Those who have not really examined the Qur'an usually dismissed it as being, they say, a collection of proverbs or aphorisms, saying that one man used to announce from time to time. They imagined that there was a man who, from time to time during the day, will think of some witty little saying and spit it out and those around him will quickly write it down and eventually these were all collected and became the Qur'an. Those who read the Qur'an will find that it is not anything like that at all. The collection of things said by the Prophet is the subject and the content of the Hadith. But the subjects and contents of the Qur'an are all in a form of a composition and explanation. I site as an example the chapter, Yusuf, which is an entire story in great detail about on e particular episode of one portion of the life of one man. It is a composition. It is for this reason that virtually all those who have actually examined the Qur'an usually refer to it as being the product of the authorship as attributed to Muhammad and his 'co-adjudicators'. These were supposed to be people who would sit with him and composed the Qur'an. You see they imagined that the Qur'an was composed by a committee. They acknowledged that there was too much information and it was too well composed for one man to have assembled. So, they imagined that a committee of men used to meet regularly, brought their various sources of information, composed something and then handed to this man and told him, "Go to the people tomorrow, this is your revelation." In other words, it was a fraud concocted by a group of people. But what do we know about fraud? The Qur'an reminds us as it says: "Saw, now the truth has come, and falsehood neither invents anything nor restores anything." (34:49). It is hard to translate it into English precisely, but what this verse is telling us is that falsehood is not the source of a new thing. A new and truthful thing cannot come from falsehood and falsehood does not restore, to our minds, the facts. Truth is in agreement with facts. Falsehood is something else. So falsehood is empty. If something is born fraud, it will never bring us new information. It will never endure; it will only collapse over a period of time. Challenge Another interesting verse is a challenge which is addressed to those non-believers. It reads: "Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies."4:82) Here is a challenge to the reader. If you think you have an explanation where this book came from, have another look at the book. Surely you will be able to uncover some inconsistencies to support your case. Imagine a student submitting a term paper or a final exam and then writing at the bottom of the page a not to his teacher: "You will find no mistakes in this paper. There are no mistakes on this exam." Can you imagine the teacher letting that rest? The teacher would probably not sleep until uncovering some inconsistency after a challenge like that. It is not the way human beings speak. They do not offer challenges like that. But here we have it in the Qur'an, a direct challenge saying: "If you have a better idea as to where this book came from, here's all you need to do. Find some inconsistencies." There are critics who make the attempt, critics who try to say the Qur'an contains inconsistencies. A publication that came to my attention recently suggested that the Qur'an was contradictory on the subject of marriage, because in one place, it says: "don't marry more than one wife unless you can provide for them all," and in another place it says: "Don't marry more than four." They see this as a contradiction. What they have is a counter-distinction. In one case, the qualification for marrying more than one has been given. In the other case a limitation on how many may be married is given. There is no contradiction. Critics are too quick to grab hold of something, give it an interpretation, and then offer it as an excuse to escape the reality of this document. For critics who would attack the Qur'an and insist it contains mistakes, we can use the same method as in our reply to Christians who claim that Jesus is on record as claiming to be equal to God. Remember the three categories of evidence offered. The evidence offered was insufficient, ambiguous or impossible. You see, if someone cites a verse from the Qur'an, trying to show that it is a mistake, we only need to show that the verse cited is insufficient to establish that there is a mistake or we need to show that the verse cited cannot possible have the interpretation which the critic is giving it. It will always fall into one of these three categories. Attributing it to the Devil I had experience, on one occasion, describing some of the contents in the Qur'an to a man who did not know the book I was talking about. He sat next to me with the cover turned over. I just told him about the book, what it contained and told him it was not the Bible. His conclusion was, the book was miraculous. This man was a minister in a Christian Church. He said, "Yes, that book could not possible have originated with the man and therefore it must come from the devil, because it's not the Bible." The Qur'an comments on this suggestion in chapter twenty-six, verse two-hundred and eleven, as to those who would suggest that the book came from the devil. It points out that it does not quite suit him, does it? Is this how the devil misleads people? He tells them, worship none but God, he insists that they fast, that they practice charity. Is this how the devil misleads people? Compare the attitude of someone like this, to the attitude of the Jews who knew Jesus and opposed him until the very end. There is an episode reported in the Bible where Jesus raised a man from the dead, one Lazarus, who had been dead for four days. When Lazarus came out of the tomb, alive again those Jews who were watching, what did they do? Did they suddenly say that this man is a true prophet and become believers? No, the Bible says they immediately discussed among themselves that "since this man is working on his signs soon everyone will believe in him. We've got to find a way to kill him," and they attributed his miraculous powers to the devil. He raised that man by the power of the devil. Now, the Christians who read that episode will feel very sorry for those Jews who had clear evidence right before their very eyes and attribute the miracles to the devil. Does it not appear that they may be doing the same thing when we illustrate what we have in the Qur'an and their final excuse is only: "It originated with the devil." A Different Story There are those who insist that the Qur'an was copied, that it originated in Christian and Jewish sources. As a matter of fact, a book published in recent years called Worshipping the Wrong God has stated, as though it were a fact, that after the first revelation of the Qur'an came to Muhammad, peace be upon him, that his wife died and so he quickly married a Jew and a Christian, and this is where he drew the rest of his sources for his book. Well, they have the facts partly right. It was ten years after the first revelation of the Qur'an that his wife died, and it was another ten years after that when the Qur'an was virtually completed that he married a Jew and a Christian. Did he copy from Jewish and Christian sources? In the Qur'an, the ruler of Egypt who opposed Moses is known as Fir'aun, not Pharaoh. The Jews and Christians have always said 'Pharaoh'. It is easy for an Arab to say 'Pharaoh'. But in the Qur'an, it is Fir'aun, with an 'n'. Why? Surely the Jews must have teased them about that and said: "You've got the word wrong. It's 'Pharaoh' and not Fir'aun." But they insisted on it and it continues that way in the Qur'an, Fir'aun. As it happens, this historical writings of Herodotus, the Greek historian, exist to this day, and Herodotus comments on the ruler of Egypt, being in his day and in the centuries before him, one man who went by the title of Fir'aun. Did the book copy from the Christians sources? The Qur'an insists that Jesus was not crucified, that this was only an illusion, but that the Jews who thought they crucified Jesus were mistaken because it was not really so. Christians would have no part of that. As it happens, the idea that Jesus was not really crucified is really very ancient and can be traced back to the first century. But Christians who believed that were eliminated as heretics within the first two-hundred years after the time of Jesus and they were not teaching this doctrine anywhere around the Arabian Peninsula fourteen centuries ago. Could the author of the Qur'an have been copying from Christian sources when he says that Jesus spoke to man as a babe (3:46) and in later life? The Arabic word used indicates that he was still speaking to man and teaching to them in the forties. The Christians have always maintained that Jesus was gone by the time he was thirty-three. It indicates that there could have been no copying. In fact, a man would have to be stubborn and insists on the points as explained in the Qur'an in the face of Christian opposition who would have said: "No! No! I wasn't like that. We tell the story differently." House Cleaning Now we go to the words of the prophets themselves, which represent another path that leads to Islam. In the Persian scriptures, which have been around for thousands of years, we read: "When the Persians should sink so low in mortality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones will be overpowered. The house which was built and in which many idols have been placed will purged of idols and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of the Farsi, Entaus and Balkh, and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers." (Desature no.14) The Muslims recognize this very quickly because the Ka'bah, the building which all Muslims face in prayers everyday, was at one time filled with idols and it was part of the mission of Muhammad , peace be upon him, to purge the house of idols till today. It was in the next generation, after the time of the Prophet that the wise men of Persia and others did join his followers. A Prophet Like Moses In the Bible, in Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that H would raise up a prophet, from among the brothers of the Israelites, like Moses. Christians wish to apply this to Jesus, to say he was the prophet like Moses. It is uncomfortable for them to recognize, however that Jesus was not very much like Moses and Jesus had no father, no wife, no children; he did not die of old age, and he did not lead a nation; all these things Moses had or did. But they say, well, Jesus will return; he will return as a victorious person, and so he will be more like Moses. Do they really expect he will return to also acquire a father and a wife and children and then die of old age? Not usually. Moreover, Jesus was an Israelite. The passage of scripture says that this prophet that was foretold would be raised up among the brothers of the Israelites, not from the Israelites. In the third chapter of Acts, the disciple Peter speaks to a crowd of people and explains that Jesus has been take up and he is in heaven. He will remain in Heaven and he cannot return until all the things that were promised but God come to pass. So what are we still waiting for, does he tell the crowd? He quotes this very saying of Moses saying: "For God will raise up a prophet from among the brothers of the Israelites like Moses..." The point is very clear. Christians like to see this prophet as being Jesus. But read carefully Acts chapter three, what it says is that Jesus awaits a return. He cannot return until the fulfillment of this prophecy, that another prophet has to come. Jesus spoke of it himself and the words survived, just barely, but they survived in the bible. Jesus spoke of God sending another 'Paraclete'. Paraclete There is a lot of argument over the meaning of this word 'Paraclete'. For now we can leave that aside. What is a 'Paraclete'? It does not matter. The first letter of John shows that Jesus was a 'Paraclete'. He is called a 'Paraclete' and we have Jesus promising another 'Paraclete' is going to be sent. We lose a lot by this word 'another' in English because it is ambiguous. If someone's car breaks down, and it is a Toyota, and I say, '" I'll go get you another car," maybe I mean, "I'll go and get you another Toyota because this one you have is broken," or maybe I mean, "Forget Toyota, they're no good; I'll go and get you a Datsun." It is an ambiguous word. But the Greeks had a word for it. When they meant 'another' of the same kind, they said aloes. When they meant another of a different kind, they said heteroes. The important thing there is that when Jesus, who was himself a Paraclete, said "God will send you another Paraclete" he used the word aloes, not heteroes. Christians want to say that this other 'Paraclete' that has been sent was different from Jesus. It was not a man, it was a spirit. What Jesus said was: God will send you another one like me, another man." Muslims believe that Muhammad is the fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus. The Qur'an says that this man is mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians (see7:157). Christians came to expect that the return of Jesus because of a Jewish misunderstanding. 'Messiah' and 'Son of Man' have been given special significance by the Jews, even though may people were called by this same name as in the Bible. The Jews came to expect a victorious leader. When Jesus did not turn out to be quite what many expected, they hatched the idea that he would return some day and fulfill all these prophecies. Follower of Jesus Suppose that someone observed Jesus two-thousand years ago, and he left this planet, or he went to sleep for two-thousand years an returned today to look for the followers of Jesus, who would he find? Who would he recognize? Christians? I conclude with just this food for thought: the Bible says very clearly that Jesus used to fast. Do Christians fast? Muslims fast; it is obligatory on month every year. The Bible says that Jesus prayed by touching his forehead to the ground. Do Christians pray in this manner? Muslims do. It is characteristic of their prayer and no one on earth is probably ignorant of that fact. According to Jesus, he told his disciples to greet one another with the expression, "Peace be with you." Do the Christians do that? Muslims do, universally, whether they speak Arabic of not. The greeting for one to another is Assalamu' alaikum (peace be with you). The brother of Jesus in the Book of James, stated that no man should suggest what he is about to do of highlight his plans for the next few days in anyway without adding the phrase "if God wills." Do not say "I will go here and there do this and that" without adding the phrase "if God wills." Do Christians do that? Muslims do, whether they speak Arabic or not. If they so much as suggest they are going downtown to pick up some groceries, they will add Insha-Allah, which in Arabic means, "If God wills." These conclude my thoughts on this subject. May Allah guide us always closer to the truth.
Anonymous	Monday, March 19, 2001 - 11:14 am Life After Death The question whether there is a life after death does not fall under the jurisdiction of science, as science is concerned only with classification and analysis of data. Moreover, man has been busy with scientific inquiries and research, in the modern sense of the term, only for the last few centuries, while he has been familiar with the concept of life after death since times immemorial. All the prophets of God called their people to worship God and to believe in life after death. They laid so much emphasis on the belief in life after death that even a slight doubt in it meant denying God and made all other beliefs meaningless. The very fact that all the prophets of God have dealt with this metaphysical question of life after death so confidently and so uniformly, the gap between their ages being thousands of years goes to prove that the source of their knowledge of life after death as proclaimed by them all, was the same, i.e., Divine revelation. We also know that these prophets of God were greatly opposed by their people, mainly on the issue of life after death, as their people thought it impossible. But in spite of opposition, the prophets won many sincere followers. The question arises: what made those followers forsake the established beliefs, traditions and customs of their forefathers, notwithstanding the risk of being totally alienated from their own community? The simple answer is: they made use of their faculties of mind and heart and realized the truth. Did they realize the truth through perceptual consciousness? Not so, as perceptual experience of life after death is impossible. Actually, God has given man, besides perceptual consciousness, rational, aesthetic and moral consciousness too. It is this consciousness that guides man regarding realities that cannot be verified through sensory data. That is why all the prophets of God while calling people to believe in God and life after death, appeal to the aesthetic, moral and rational consciousness of man. For example, when the idolaters of Makkah denied even the possibility of life after death, the Quran exposed the weakness of their stand by advancing very logical and rational arguments in support of it: And he has coined for us a similitude, and has forgotten the fact of his creation, saying: who will revive these bones when they have rotted away? Say: He will revive them Who produced them at first, for He is the Knower of every creation, Who has appointed for you fire from the green tree, and behold! you kindle from it. Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth, able to create the like of them? Yes, and He is indeed the Supreme Creator, the All-Knowing. (36:78-81) At another occasion, the Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture: They say, There is nothing but our present life; we die, and we live, and nothing but Time destroys us. Of that they have no knowledge; they merely conjecture. And when our revelations are recited to them, their only argument is that they say, Bring us our fathers, if you speak truly. (45:24-25) Surely God will raise all the dead. But God has His own plan of things. A day will come when the whole universe will be destroyed and then again the dead will be resurrected to stand before God. That day will be the beginning of the life that will never end, and that Day every person will be rewarded by God according to his or her good or evil deed. The explanation that the Quran gives about the necessity of life after death is what the moral consciousness of man demands. Actually, if there is no life after death, the very belief in God becomes irrelevant, or even if one believes in God, that would be an unjust and indifferent God: having once created man and not concerned with his fate. Surely, God is just. He will punish the tyrants whose crimes are beyond count: having killed hundreds of innocent persons, created great corruptions in the society, enslaved numerous persons to serve their whims, etc. Mans having a very short span of life in this world, and this physical worlds too being not eternal, punishments or rewards equal to the evil or noble deeds of persons are not possible here. The Quran very emphatically states that the Day of Judgment must come and God will decide about the fate of each soul according to his or her record of deeds: Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atoms weight, or less than that or greater, escapes Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear Record. That He may reward those who believe and do good words. For them is pardon and a rich provision. But those who strive against our revelations, challenging (Us), theirs will be a painful doom of wrath. (34:3-5) The Day of Resurrection will be the Day when Gods attributes of Justice and Mercy will be in full manifestation. God will shower His Mercy on those who suffered for His sake in the worldly life, believing that an eternal bliss was awaiting them. But those who abused the bounties of God, caring nothing for the life to come, will be in the most miserable state. Drawing a comparison between them, the Quran says: Is he, then, to whom We have promised a goodly promise the fulfillment of which he will meet, like the one whom We have provided with the good things of this life, and then on the Day of Resurrection he will be of those who will be brought arraigned before God? (28:61) The Quran also states that this worldly life is a preparation for the eternal life after death. But those who deny it become slaves of their passions and desires, make fun of virtuous and God-conscious persons. Such persons realize their folly only at the time of their death and wish to be given a further chance in the world but in vain. Their miserable state at the time of death, and the horror of the Day of Judgment, and the eternal bliss guaranteed to the sincere believers are very beautifully mentioned in the following verses of the Holy Quran: Until, when death comes unto one of them, he says, My Lord send me back, that I may do right in that which I have left behind! But nay! It is but a word that he speaks; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised. And when the Trumpet is blown there will be no kinship among them that day, nor will they ask of one another. Then those whose scales are heavy, they are successful. And those whose scales are light are those who lose their souls, in hell abiding, the fire burns their faces and they are glum therein. (23:99-104) The belief in life after death not only guarantees success in the Hereafter but also makes this world full of peace and happiness by making individuals most responsible and dutiful in their activities. Think of the people of Arabia. Gambling, wine, tribal feuds, plundering and murdering were their main traits when they had no belief in life after death. But as soon as they accepted the belief in One God and life after death they became the most disciplined nation of the world. They gave up their vices, helped each other in hours of need, and settled all their disputes on the basis of justice and equality. Similarly the denial of life after death has its consequences not only in the Hereafter but also in this world. When a nation as a whole denies it, all kinds of evils and corruptions become rampant in that society and ultimately it is destroyed. The Quran mentions the terrible end of Aad, Thamud and the Pharaoh in some detail: (The tribes of) Thamud and Aad disbelieved in the judgment to come. As for Thamud, they were destroyed by the lightning, and as for Aad, they were destroyed by a fierce roaring wind, which He imposed on them for seven long nights and eight long days so that you might see the people laid prostrate in it as if they were the stumps of fallen down palm trees. Now do you see remnant of them? Pharaoh likewise and those before him and the subverted cities. They committed errors and those before him, and they rebelled against the Messenger of their Lord, and He seized them with a surpassing grip. Lo, when the waters rose, We bore you in the running ship that We might make it a reminder for you and for heeding ears to hold. So when the Trumpet is blown with a single blast and the earth and the mountains are lifted up and crushed with a single blow, then on that day, the Terror shall come to pass, and the heaven shall be split for upon that day it will be very frail. Then as for him who is given his book in his right hand, he shall say, Here take and read my book! Certainly I thought I should encounter my reckoning. So he shall be in a pleasing life in a lofty garden, its clusters nigh to gather. Eat and drink with wholesome appetite for that you did long ago, in the days gone by.But as for him who is given his book in his left hand, he shall say: Would that I had not been given my book and not known my reckoning! Would that it had been the end! My wealth has not availed me, my authority is gone from me. (69:4-29) Thus, there are very convincing reasons to believe in life after death. First, all the prophets of God have called their people to believe in it. Secondly, whenever a human society is built on the basis of this belief, it has been the most ideal and peaceful society, free of social and moral evils. Thirdly, history bears witness that whenever this belief is rejected collectively by a group of people in spite of the repeated warning of the Prophet, God has punished the group as a whole even in this world. Fourthly, moral, aesthetic and rational faculties of man endorse the possibility of life after death. Fifthly, Gods attributes of Justice and Mercy have no meaning if there is no life after death.
Sistah-X	Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 06:30 am I have a question for Galool and PG, what is the purpose of u guys posting here? I mean why would u spend your preciouce time expressing your views on Islam (U think it's a waste of time lol), while u could be spending it enjoing yourself while u still can! Surely u are wasting your time here since time is so limited (u can deny Allah but u cant deny ur time will end). I take it u DO understand u have a very slim chance of making any muslim accept your views. But u still spend nearly everyday arguing (unsuccesfully) trying to convince us that we are wasting our time. The only reason u get any responce is that every muslim has a duty to convey Islam as it is and not keep it hidden. Our purpose is Daa'wa, what is yours? I appologise if this question has been asked before. I remember someone saying they thought PG is intelligent. She certainly is, but what good is intelligence when you are "deaf blind and dumb"? (I see an insult comming my way).