     Somalim | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 08:19 am
Your opinion briefly
Feel Free to express yourself without insulates (PLEASE)
Those of you from both camps
Camp(A)=The for group
1-WHY?
Camp(B)=The anti-group
1-Also WHY?
This was the debate on capital hill today,I thought we might discuss it too,do you think its a good Idea?
Let the debate begin. |
| Miskiin-Macruuf-Waryaa-Aqiyaar | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 11:51 am
Salama...
Are you a Muslim?
If so, refer it to the Quraanka Kariimka.
We have a complete code of a way of life--as they call it inappropriately religion--that we follow suitably. Any question that reflects, regards, and experiences by ourselves, then there is a BOOK. A lucid, clear, perspicuous and explicit BOOK. It is not your beyond to grasp it. There you have it, just sitting on your your desk {and I assume, still, you are a 'good' Muslim for at least to have a copy of the Quraanka Kariimka}.
_______________
Nabadeey!! |
| Xman | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 02:08 pm
somalim,
I dont think there is anything wrong with cloning.As a muslim i believe all muslims should be open minded about cloning.A muslim should learn about every knowledge available to him or her.Whether welike it or not cloning has landed and it here to stay.Other nationalities would be doing it.And it might have an adverse effect on us muslims or somalis if you wanna put it that way.Cloning is in its maiden debut now.And what is known now is just a tip of an iceberge.A Pendora's box is about to unfold.How are we gonna protect ourself if others wanna us that knowledge against us.Cloning opened up many doors which were inexcesible before.And now mankind has the know-how and the knowledge to mess with human body and any other life form.Iam sure if we look the quran deeply we will find solution to our morality.Prophet mohamed{pbuh} said...."seek knowledge even if you have to go to Arthul-sin"
Meaning knowledge has has no bounds.
And apart from that....cloning can be be used to serve the need of humanity.For instance when your lungs,kidneys or your heart fails...new parts could be made specially for you.Tell me if you will refuse that kind of offer and choose instead to die.Wasalaam Aliekum warahmatullahi Wa barakatu. |
| Monique | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 06:10 pm
CLONING IS IMMORAL, INHUMAN,UNETHICAL, UNACCEPTABLE, AND TOTALLY a DISTURBING IDEA I MEAN WHAT SCIENCE BRINGS TO US IS GOOD LIKE FINDING CURES FOR DISEASE BUT WHO EVER INVENTED CLOING HAD TO MUCH TIME IN THERE HANDS WHY DO WE JUST LET MOTHER NATURE DO ITS THING.
thats my opinion |
| ConspiracyTheory | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 06:11 pm
Well I think the world needs more of ME
But then I think to myself
Do you really need more than one of ..say
CLINTON
DENNIS RODMAN
MICHEAL JACKSON
HITLER
STALIN
Boy the list goes on..so I have to say...NO, I dont agree with cloning..I think its a part of a GREAT PLAN..besides, nothings wrong with a bit of uniqueness and originality in this world. |
| Sagittarius | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 07:04 pm
Miskin,
"Are you a Moslem," statement is no way to engage others into your course of discussion! I believe the individual who posed the question wasn't specifically questioning the state of our faith, but was rather engaging in a far more serious discussion about cloning! I wouldn't otherwise mind if you gently told us what the Book says about cloning instead of point it to us. I thus respectfully discard your point of view!!
Xman,
I take my hat of to you, the way you sagiciously tried to broaden our horizons; as cloning is not limited to its current exprimentation of only cloning Dolly, but it will extend to further address far more serious issues on human biological deficiencies. Cloning coupled with the recent human genome mapping only announces new scientific frontiers, and it will be short sightnedness to say now, it will be this and that, just lo' and behold! |
| Anonymous | Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 11:52 pm
the united states government rejected the whole Idea it was on the evening news. |
| Anonymous | Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 03:21 am
WHO CARES, IT'S RIDICULOUS AND SHAMEFUL AND ONLY FREAKS ARE INTERESTED IN THAT S***. |
| SomaliCream | Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 11:37 am
Personally I believe that cloning humans is an unethical activity, it may have its advantages but it takes the unique difference that makes us all individuals. I don’t think people would feel uncomfortable with having another twin around the world, who looks, eats, thinks the same as you, I find it very freaky indeed. Why try to play the role of Allah and mess with nature? |
| Maryan. | Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 12:05 pm
Asalaama Calaykum dhamaantiin.
In a way I thought that cloning is something interesting, but then it also puts you in the role of doing something that only allah have the authority to do.
Once when I was reading about cloning I came upon a book that wrote what all the major religions had to say about cloning and surprisingly the rejection of the islamic as to cloning was symbolized as yellow on a scale of red; stop, it cannot be done, yellow; proceed, but be careful as to what extent you go with it and green; go for it.
Besides the religion views of cloning, if the decision was in my hand, I would have allowed cloning to some extent because I want to perform it with my own hands more than almost anything and I would have cloned all the endargered species in the World, especially in Africa, but it brings up many difficulties including, as my brother SomaliCream mentioned above lack of uniqueness, people would try to expand their knowlegde of the subject at hand and many things would go out of hand.
Wabilaahi Towfiiq,
Maryan |
| Sister | Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 12:08 pm
Xman,
How does the process of organ cloning is done? do they clone a whole person and then use the clone as storage of spare parts?
Your sister |
| Xman | Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 06:47 pm
SAGGITTARIUS:
Thank You.
SISTER:
You raised a good question.At this early stage of cloning...The easiest and perhaps the cheapest way of getting human parts is to creat a fully grown human clone and break it down to harvest vital organs.But that is inhuman...a crime against humanity and totally immoral.It is not any diferent from cannibalism.
But hopefully we the humans dont have to do that.Recent advances in cell biology and the success in mapping human genes... shades light on how future spare parts could be individually made and harvested....without the need for a fully grown clone.
For instance the "Embryonic Sterm Cell"....It is the parent cell of human body ....that could go on to form most types of cells and tissues in the body.It normally evolves into fetus in less than half a month...and specialize to form different parts of the body.
If extracted before it turns into fetus and specialize.....the sterm cells could be directed to become any desired cell or tissue.You could make it turn into a lung,liver,heart a pancreas or a cute little ladies fingernail or an eye lashes.
Hopefully in future advances in this field.....sterm cells could be directed to reproduce itself....thus eliminating the need for embryo and perhaps eliminating the question of morality....since no embryo or a fetus will be used at the starting point of making spare parts.
A day would come in future....when human parts manufucturers would be as many as the car makers of today.
One more thing iam a true believer of Allah,his prophets,his books,his angels and the day of the judgement.For those of you who might think i have an infidel mentality...think again and pay closer attention to the world around you. |
| miss.x | Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:24 am
To camp B
The fact that we are able to clone proves the Magnificance of our Creator and full Might and great Wisdom.
So cloning isn't something that should be feared.
I suggest before u start to disregard it u should find out what it stands for and how the islam looks at it.
We are allowed to use plants and animal cloning to cure diseases and to feed ppl.
The Prophet ( saw ) said, ' Allah has created the illness, and the cure so seek the cure.'
Therefor it is allowed to use genitically modified or cloned animals and plants.
Like Xman said cloning human parts can be used to serve the need of humanity.
Insha'ala we will be able to clone human parts with the help of genome project and Allah ta'ala .
These body parts can be used without fear of rejection.
Any1 refusing a cloned human part would be contradicting one of Allah ta'ala sayings.
'Do not kill yourselves.'
To camp A
This is what the Quraanka says about human cloning.
Children born out of cloning females, have no father.
Children born out of cloning males, have no mothers.
This contradicts the saying of Allah ta'ala.
'O mankind! I have created u from a female and a male.'
Cloning humans also causes loss of kinship.
The shaytan said,'I will command them to change the creation of Allah.'
Meaning the way we reproduce.
I hope that our short sightness won't hold us back.
Although cloning humans is forbidden, cloning plants, animals, bacteria and virusses isn't.
As long as they don't contradict our religion.
There is so much that can be achieved by cloning, i don't know where to start.
For instance ppl suffering from diabetes get their insuline from genetically modified and cloned bacteria, ppl with the deseas cystic fibrosis live longer due to cloned virusses. |
| LiBiN | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 02:30 pm
Somalim,
Good topic! but not many are trying to contribute...
About cloning i agree with Xman and sagittarius.
Muslims should be open minded and we would rather give yellow signal than giving Red first and later on green(as it happened with Contraceptions and In vitro fertilization).
Miskin,
your comment was inappropriate.sagittarius already replied to you,i wanna add one more thing which is:We,Somalis,all have Quran book(s) at home,more than 80% of somalis dont know the real meaning of Quran and Ahadith and how to refer them and apply in our daily lives.
we all only know how read and memorise without knowing real meaning..........!
conspiracy theory and somalicream,
Uniqueness and one`s personality doesnt come from one`s gene or chromosomes.
it is more like environment and social factors that play major role and lets not forget,most important part, Allah creats every individual with unique personality.
eg: identical twins have more than 75-80% of their genes matching but then each one will have different character and personality even if they were brought up in the same household all of their lives.
If you take gene from those men you mentioned,they will never become like Hitler,Stallin.....
eg. if someone takes a gene from Prophet(PBUH),Allah Forbid,will this clone become like Mohammed our prophet (PBUH).NO never!
whatever human make including Cloning happened with Will of God.
Allah Says in Surah Al-Alaq;
Read! In the Name of your Lord who Created(all that exists).
He created man from a clot(a piece of thick coagulated blood).
Read! and your Lord is most generous.
Who has taught the Writing of the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not.........!
Clot, wich is thick blood, is made up of cells which of coarse have nuclei.and In cloning thats what scientists are using nuclei of cells...
Imam al-Bukhari reported in his Saheeh from Abu Sa‘eed (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon Him) said: "There is no created being but Allah created it." In Arabic, the word "khalaqa" means to make out of nothing, which is something that only Allah can do; it is impossible for anyone except Allah to do this. It also carries the meaning of decreeing or foreordaining. [**]
See Fath al-Bari Sharh Saheeh al-Bukhari, 13/390
so as long as we(humans) get cells or nuclei to start,that doesnt make one God(or acting as God).
Camp A,
What disturbs me is cloning from dead person(even though i dont even know how it will work coz when cells die due to lack blood supply and Oxygen,it will cause fragmentation of chromatins in nuclei)!!well these scientists have higher knowledge!
it doesnt seem morally right, and i dont really know what Islam says about it but i have this feeling its NOT right.lets check more... |
| LiBiN | Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 03:20 pm
MissX,
I agree things you said in campB except the part cloning of animals are allowed in Islam.
one thing humans are animals too, they both have almost same anatomic and physiologic features except Nervous system.
so If cloning is Haram or Halaal, it should apply to all sexually reproducing animals including humans.
In camp A,
the Verse of
'O mankind! I have created u from a female and a male.' is in the Quran in diff place.
pllz tell me source of other verses ,i tried to find more Ayah of clonings but no luck so far..
about diabetic Patients,yeah Insulin(some) is genetically modified which are from Pigs and cattles and humans which are now mostly used,so there will be less adverse effects.
Cystic fibrosis doesnt have any treatment and the only that is used to prolong to their lives are symptomatic treatments.Gene therapy is still under studies. |
| XMAN | Friday, April 13, 2001 - 12:05 pm
FIRST OF ALL I WANNA THANK PEOPLE LIKE SAGARITTOUS,MISS X,LIBIN,MARYAN AND MONIQUE AND ALL OTHERS WHO TOOK PART IN THIS TOPIC.I WAS HOPING IT WOULD BE REAL HOT AND ALOT OF INTELLECTUAL THOUGHTS EXCHANGED.IAM LITTLE BIT DISAPOINTED THAT MOST PEOPLE SHY AWAY FROM THIS TOPIC.
AT THE SAME TIME IAM REALLY GLAD TO FIND HERE PEOPLE WITH OPEN MIND AND SEE THE WORLD THE SAME WAY I SEE IT.THANK YOU ALL.WABILLAH TOOWFIQ |
| some_guy | Friday, April 13, 2001 - 06:05 pm
well,
i'm not particulary good or gifted in science terms, but i found this particular issue tremendouslly facinating, and i'm very very happy to have read all ur ever so intelligent and educated comments.
by the way, 1 time i was a watching a program by the name of FACES OF ISMAL OM BBC TV. in that specific slot, a A NIGERIAN-MUSLIM PROFESSOR @ OXFORD UNIVERSITY WHO IS ONE OF THE LEADING PERSONS IN THE DNA AND CLONING FIELD WAS BEING INTERVIEWD AND HE WAS ALSO SHEIKH OR A MAN WITH A GREAT KNOWLEDGE TOWARDS ISLAM AND SHERIA.
he had many good things to say about cloning and islamic perspective regarding it, however he also had many doubts and warning about what it might lead to in the future. |
| Alfa | Friday, April 13, 2001 - 10:30 pm
Dear Brothers and Sisters
"if a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubtd, he shall end in certainties" --Francis Bacon
I am extremely eager to see when the human cloning will start happening routinely.
I have respect to the religions espeicially when it comes to the moral values, but the rest science is the real religion to me.. ( I call it, the god of 21st Century).
Whether Sheiks, Culuma or other conservative ppl dislike it or not, Human Clonning will happen.
I also believe that some country like Somalia could really benefit from it, cuz we may someday get rid of those warlords and some other pple who by mistake came to this world, and in the meantime clone some honest, intelligent,and sensitive Somali ppl.
One day when human being will have a total control on when and where should get rain or sun light or oxygen etc, you will be there arguing Sheikh Xanafi said that and no Sheikh Shaaafici and other Culuma don't like thatn etc....
PPL wake up KNOWLEDGE IS THE REAL POWER OF THIS WORLD.
If you don't or cannot understand what is going on in this simple and real world, how you could explain what is going on in an absract world.
Alfa
Italy |
| XMAN {AKA DICK} | Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 06:23 am
ALFA
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION IN THIS SUBJECT
Brother...there are people with little knowledge of both Islam and science and most of them adoloscent.and they are here in this forum.so we must choose carefully our words though we dont mean no harm intentionwise.We dont wanna confuse our youngsters and lead the astray.They could easily misinterpreted our postings here...and we would be responsible for whatever becomes of them.
I believe you dont wanna give the impression that science is the god of the 21st centuary.That is a pure "shirk" and the greatest sin infront of Allah{swt}.Read what suratul samat says...
"Allah is one"
"Allah the eternal besought of all"
"He begets not nor was he begotten"
"And there is none comparable to him"
Science is from Allah....And Allah is the source of all knowledge....cos he is the creator of the universe and all that exist.He is our beginning and our end.
So it is totally unwise if you say that science is your god.Repent brother and ask for the forgiveness of your creator.
Islam is the source of science.The Quran is the source of science.there was no real science before ALQURAN.
FOR INSTANCE THE FIRST UNIVERSITY WAS BUILT BY THE MUSLIMS IN CAIRO.THE SECOND ONE WAS BUILT BY THE MUSLIMS IN BAGDAD AND THE THIRD ONE WAS BUILT BY THE MUSLIMS IN CODOVA{SPAIN}
ISLAM INTRODUCE THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY. AND THE GREATEST MASTER OF CHEMISTRY WAS IMAM MULKU AL TUSI. HE LAID DOWN THE FOUNDATION OF CHEMISTRY AND BIOLOGY.HE WROTE 7 CHEMISTRY BOOKS WHICH FINALLY FOUND ITS WAY TO EUROPE.EUROPEANS WERE LIVING IN DARK AGES THEN.IT THE KNOWLEDGE OF ISLAM THE MAKE THEM COME OUT OF THE DARK AGES DURING RENAISCENCE OR WHATEVER.MUSLIMANS PERFECTED THE SCIENCE OF MATHEMATICS,ASTRONOMY,PHYSICS,BIOLOGY,MEDICINE,GEOLOGY.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE FELL INTO THE HANDS OF THE EUROPEANS,GREEKS AND THE JEWS.aND THAT IS CAUSED BY THE MUSLIMS THEMSELFS.DURING THE DYNASTY OF THE UMAYAD KHALIPHETS....THE MUSLIMS WERE ORDER TO ABANDON AND GIVE UP ALL WORLDLY ACTIVITIES AND CONCENTRATE ON THE HERE AFTER.UNIVERSITIES WERE CLOSED AND THE PURSUIT OF SCIENCE WAS STOPPED.THERE WAS NO MORE FORCE DRIVING THE MUSLIM YOUNGSTER ANY MORE.THE HUNGER FOR KNOWLEDGE DIED OUT.AND THAT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE DOWN FALL OF THE GREAT ISLAMIC EMPIRE. THE LIKES OF IMAM MULKU DIED OF OLD AGE AND THERE WAS NO YOUNGER ONES TO REPLACE THEM.AND THE MIGHTY ISLAMIC EMPIRE DISINTEGRATED....WHILE THE SAME KNOWLEDGE IT CREATED FLOURISHED EUROPE AND HELPED IT COME OUT OF THE DARK AGE,AND EUROPE USED THE SAME KNOWLEDGE TO CONQUER THE MUSLIMS AND THE WHOLE WORLD .THAT IS THE MISTAKE MADE BY THE MUSLIMS 13 HUNDRED YEARS AGO.AND WE PAID DEARLY FOR THAT MISTAKE.AND THE MUSLIMS OF TODAY ARE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE TOO.
SO BROTHER BEFORE YOU REACH CONCLUSION LOOK AT YOUR BACK AT YOUR HERITAGE AS A MUSLIM AND REJOY.FOR YOU HAVE UNDISPUTED REPUTATION.
HERE ARE FEW THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE YOU FEEL A PROUD AS A MUSLIM....
THE HOLY QURAN MENTIONED THE EXISTENCE OF THE GRAVITY THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE NEWTON.
IT MENTIONED THE ATOM 15 HUNDRED YRS AGO
IT MENTIONED THE CELLS OF THE LIVING THINGS
IT MENTIONED THE GREAT INVISIBLE WALLS THAT DIVIDE THE GREATER OCEANS OF THE WORLD...WHICH WAS DISCOVERED TWO DECADES AGO.
IT MENTIONED THE INTERSTELLARS AND THE BLACK HOLE WHICH WERE DISCOVERED NOT LONG AGO WITH THE HELP OF ADVANCE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.
THE QURAN EXPLAINED CLEARLY THE PROCESS OF BIRTH.WHICH IS ALSO EXPLAINED BY SCIENCE ONLY THIS CENTURY.
IT ALSO CLEARLY EXPLAIN THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE GEOLOGICAL FORMATION OF EARTH.WHICH SCIENCE OF TODAY AGREES WITH 100%
THIS ARE ONLY FEW OUT OF HUNDREDS OF SCIENTIFIC VERSES IN THE HOLY QURAAN WHICH WERE DISCOVERED BY SCIENCE ONLY RECENTLY.NOT TO MENTION WHAT SCIENCE DID NOT DISCOVERED YET.FOR INSTANCE THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER WORLDS SIMILAR TO EARTH IN THE HEAVENS AND THE POSSIBILITIES OF THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER INTELLIGENT BEINGS JUST LIKE US{PERHAPS NOT PHYSICALLY}
SO WHEN I ASKED PEOPLE TO BE OPEN MINDED I DID NOT MEAN THAT THEY TURN BLIND EYE TO ISLAM THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE.
THERE IS ALOT OF CONFUSIONS AMONG THE MUSLIM SOCIETIES WORLDWIDE.MOST MUSLIMS ASSOCIATE SCIENCE WITH CHRISTIANITY.AND ANY ONE WHO TALK ABOUT SCIENCE IS CONSIDERED TO HAVE CHRISTIAN MENTALITY.YET CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE SOURCE OF SCIENCE.ISLAM IS THE SOURCE OF SCIENCE.
WE HAVE AN OLDER GENERATION WHICH HAVE NEGATIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS SCIENCE AND A YOUNGER GENERATION WHO ARE LOST IN BETWEEN SCIENCE AND ISLAM.AND UNLESS SOMETHING IS DONE WE WILL BE IN A MORTAL LOSS.
AS FOR THE SUBJECT OF CLONNING.I TRULY BELIEVE THAT IT IS A MENACE TO ISLAM AND HUMANITY AS A WHOLE.AND THE LESS WE UNDERSTAND ABOUT IT THE MORE CLOSE WE WOULD BE TO ITS DESTRUCTIVE PATH.AS A MULSIM WE HAVE TO BE IN THE FORE FRONT OF THE SCIENTIFIC FRONTIER AND DEFEND OURSELF FROM THE EVIL INTENTIONS OF THE NONE MUSLIMS.
AND FINNALY TO THOSE WHO ARE CONFUSED...LEARN THE QURAAN....AND I WILL ASSURE YOU THAT YOU WILL SEE WHAT YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.aND ALSO TO THE OPEN MINDED ONES.PLEASE OPEN YOUR MIND WIDE AND INCORPORATE ISLAM WITH WHATEVER ELSE YOU ARE INTERESTED.
WABILAHI TOWFIQ |
| MUSLIMsista | Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 10:09 pm
salaam
i must admit im no expert in this field since i am only in my first year of my univeristy course which incorporates genetics (human cloning).
since the person who has posted this topic has not defined "human cloning",my opinion on this topic is quiet mixed, . if the person meant to clone for such purposes as saving another life, for example creating a child that has the same bone marrow as his sibling so that a bone transplant operation can be performed and the life of his older sibling can be saved, i have no objection to this, and islamically from wat i know islam doesnt condemn such an act.
however, if it was meant by "human cloning", to create a human being so that they have the characteristics which are desired by society (i.e having blue eyes and blond hair, tall, slim....)or having the capabilities of an existing person (michael jordan, kobe bryant (i just like him,lol),michael jackson, madonna...), then i diagree with this.
i realise that those who disagree with all forms of cloning might present the argument that it is "TRYING TO PLAY GOD", but u know such an argument is unjustified, As muslims we belive that the characteristics of Allah such as creating life cannot be matched, for this reason we should never fear that human beings can create other humans, and therefore play the role of God. Creating life is a power left soley to the Almighty Allah and no matter how much research scientists do, they will neva be able to do this.
Alaahu Aclam
Allah knows best. |
| Basra | Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 09:26 am
I think cloning is obsolete.Can someone explain to me what the scientist have given as a necessity to have cloning? is it helpful to discover a medicine or is it for personal achievement gratifications?I can't really comment,unless i read much about;but i wont,coz it's an irrelevant subject.Can we talk about,this cool restaurant that opened in Madison avenue.It has a cool pool,water falls at the center of the dinning room.The coolest-wallahi.
tata |
