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     | Unrecorded Date Its apparent that somalis are very disturbed species.i cannot really cpmapre them with any mammals since their capacity of brain utilisation and senses sesibilities and beyond biologic repoof.So please somalis atleast spare us your invasion to our country and go back to somali.
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| | Unrecorded Date U FIRST U FREAK..........
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| | Unrecorded Date Anonymous What's up with that? I'm not sure what country you're talking about but Somalis are welcome in the U.S. as long as they want to stay.
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| | Unrecorded Date MARIAH U Second ur Freak
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| | Unrecorded Date anonymous It's obvious that u are very disturbed son.We are human being,unless ur alien.
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| | Unrecorded Date char-observer are u a? a) mammal b) maniac c) malicious d) mis-informed mongoose u have 1 live line left!!!
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| | Unrecorded Date everyone in the U.S (including mad mac) is an outsider, execpt the so called red indians.
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| | Unrecorded Date Damn ! so anybody can post the names of others. Hey, so-called khalil, "the fake", please call yourself "khalil jr" of something like that if you like to use this name. I guess you know what i mean. khalil, "the real"
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| | Unrecorded Date Mn man..............Be third if is that is what U want U freakezoy....
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| | Unrecorded Date MAD MAC you and your grandparents were not welcomed in USA.Your race killed, raped and took the land of the so called red indians. Now you are welcoming somalis what a pity.
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| | Unrecorded Date A one who USA belongs to Dude, my grandmother is American Indian. My ancestory is very mixed - I don't have any one ethnicity. So you are drawing eronious conclusions about "my race". I guess my race was killing myself to steal my land. Boy is that confusing.
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| | Unrecorded Date did you say "my ancestory is very mixed"?! by product of rape of indian people, uh? similar things happened to the black africans when they were forced to come to america that is why you see light skinned people running around. when whites say that this country is our country, i wonder how red indians feel?
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| | Unrecorded Date Khalil No, actually my grandmother and my grandfather were married moron. In fact, they were married for about 70 years. My Grandmother is an american Indian. Now about slavery, have you looked at Somali history dude? Helloooooo? The Somalis were notorious slave traders and slave owners for several centuries. Your current Bantu populations in the riverine regions are descendants from s;aves that Somalis kept to work farms and perform labor. When Somalis say this country is our country I wonder how the Bantu feel?
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| | Unrecorded Date mad mac, come on man.....now i thought your sources sucked only but your somali history sucks too.....since when somalis were slave-traders a**monk...that's arabs if you are refering to zanzibar or the east coast at all.....please cite exactly who, when and where you are talking about....if not, well,,,,???
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| | Unrecorded Date 70 years of marriage came after your european grandfather's fathers raided and almost exterminated the so called red indian who own this country, moron. the few so called red indians the whites could not finish were put in many different concentrated camps; your indian grandmother is one of the survivors, but your europeans grandfather was one of the descendants of the oppressors and rapers who forced his way into your grandmother's life and forced her people (the so called red indains) to become worst than second class citizens in their own land. not only your grandfather's fathers tried to exterminate the so called red indains, they brought africans to america so they would suck their blood while they raped african women and the so called red indian women.
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| | Unrecorded Date hi you all! Mad Mac Are you really American as you said it many times? if yes.....please can you tel me why your name is every somali dicussion room....not cuz i don,t want you there .....but i was just wondering.....and If you don,t mind can you tel me where ....I can contact you.....cuz I would like ask you ....some essues...you have talk about in the past....thanks all and byeeee
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| | Wednesday, June 14, 2000 - 10:42 am OK,I'm back. The system was down for a while. I'll start with wondergirl: I'm really a white American. Ask away. You can now contact me at my new e-Mail address which is: comsforma3@butmir.5sigcmd.army.mil Now for analyzer and Asad. Start checking your history dudes. Where the hell do you think the Bantu who live in the riverine rigions come from? You want to talk about second class citizens. Go live with them for a while and look at the •••• they put up with. Please cite exactly who, when and where for the slave trade. Is this the comedy hour? I mean let's be serious here. Somalia has been a written language for what, Less than 30 years? And slave trading is not something uncle Abdi is going to pass on in his oral history. It's common knowledge that Hamer, Merca, Barawe and Kismayu - as well as other port down the coast were used for the slave trade and that Somalis were raiding villages for slaves. The Somalis have always been warriors and raiders - nomads who's favorite method of making a living was to steal from others. I'm not knocking them, just the way it is baby. Ask your non-Somali East African neighbors what they think of Somalis - they won't describe them in glowing terms. Like I said, I'm not knocking them, but you guys need to do a reality check before you start dogging out others. Another interesting point: What difference does it make what may grea, great grandfather did? I'm not him and he's not me. This fucked up notion that you are what your family is is what's gotten you clan obsessed types into the trouble you're in. Like the man said "He who judges by the group is a pea whit. You take man as they come - one at a time."
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| | Wednesday, June 14, 2000 - 04:34 pm Mad mac is overconfident in his conviction that he can have his say in every somali matter. Somalis were slave traders surprised me really. I didn't know that, infact it was the first time I heard it. Bantus were brought by the brittish to do the farming for them and many came from tanzania and kenya. When the brittish and the Italians had disagreements, the brittish left with his railway tracks and cars and left behind the Bantus behind since they could find anyway in anywhere they went in africa.
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| | Wednesday, June 14, 2000 - 06:01 pm mad mac what makes u even part of the somali forum ya stupid fake brain washed.Ya ass is somali but ya think ya can make things look spicier than the usual deal and dat iz ya ass is seeking for attention.i beg you to stop illusiionaing ya ass is part of us and ya take a hike! HIT THE ROAD JACK...GO GO GO GO HIT THE ROAD!
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 01:51 am This does not sound like the T-Girl that I know and love. Regardless I ain't going anywhere. Course, my ass is not Somali so maybe this isn't the trouble I know after all, because she knows I'm not Somali. Zakariya I am really not making this up. And given Somalis warlike traditions and history it should hardly surprise anyone. Your analysis of Bantu presence in Kenya and Tanzania make sense, but there are no railroads in Somalia and the British presence there was in the north. The slave trade that the Somalis participated in was with the Arabs. Also, I'm sure all of you are aware that the people capturing slaves and bringing them to trading ports were almost never white. White Europeans did not penetrate into the African hinterland until the slave trade was almost over because of their lack of resistance to native disease. That's why colonialism came so late to Africa. It was more rapid in places like north America - even though north America was further away. So looking at the slave trade as a peculiarly white adventure is really doing history an injustice. There were lots of players in that event - alhtough white european society and Arab societies share the burden of blame because they permitted the market to exist at all. In the end it doesn't matter much. It's ancient history and no one who was alive then is alive now. The value of individuals or their societies is not, contrary to popular opinion, derived from their history.
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 03:49 am mad mac oooooh suck my cock.FAT COCK
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 04:56 am mad mac >What difference does it make what may grea, great grandfather did? your great grandmother and her people suffered in the hand of your european grandfathers. they tried to exterminate the so called red indain people and the owners of this country. the ones they could not kill, they put them in concentrated camps. there is no difference between your great grandfathers and what you guys are doing to the right owners of this country. the concentrated camps still exist. you guys call them indain reservation camps. talk about second class citizens in their own land.
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 06:31 am Whoa, wait a minute dude. There's a HUGE difference. NOTHING confines American Indians to a reservation. My grandmother has never lived on one. For native Americans, the reservation is nothing but an advantage. It gets a special status that oftentimes allows it to ignore local law. Native Americans can come and go as they wish. They can participate in American institutions or not. The only disadvantage right now is that native Americans suffer from appalling poverty. That's due to historical reasons that will be difficult to overcome. But there is no way everyone can just pack their bags go home and undo history. So what's your point? I was born in America, so by definition that makes me a native. My forfathers come from all over the place - not some homogeneous place. Where would I go? Is Scotland suddenly going to offer me citizenship? Or Ireland? Or Germany? Or France? And while I'm at it I guess all the Somalis would need to get the hell out as well and go back to Somalia.
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 06:34 am Anonymous Sorry dude. I don't swing that way. If you're interested in that sort of thing I suggest your local gay bar.
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 06:57 am mad dick, man..... you are upsetting everyone for writing bullshit that has no basis... why isn't there one somali who agrees with any of your claims so far... or we don't know our history huh??? do us a favor and just for the sake of my dick cut it out...
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 08:44 am mad mac, >The only disadvantage right now is that native >Americans suffer from appalling poverty. That's >due to historical reasons that will be difficult >to overcome. But there is no way everyone can >just pack their bags go home and undo history. are you denying that there is STILL discrimination against the owners of his country---the real natives--that keep them down? The real native people in this country still suffer because of what your people have done and still doing, dude. it is laughable to read when you said reservation camps is good for them. :). i wonder if you are going to tell us the next time that the real owners of this country have chosen to settle in the concantrated camps and that they put themselves there because they receive advantages. :)
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| | Thursday, June 15, 2000 - 08:53 am mad mac >For native Americans, the reservation is nothing >but an advantage. It gets a special status that oftentimes allows it >to ignore local law. laughing out load. :) "the reservation is nothing but an advantage" so that these poor people (the real owners of this country) can do crimes in their chosen area (the camps) since the local law (the law that put them there) will not bother them. LOL
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 12:49 am Asad We're back to "your people" again. How come my Native American heritage doesn't count? Am I doing these terrible things to myself? How come I work with TWO full blooded native Americans here in SFOR? Are they doing these things to themselves? There is NO institutional prejudice against native Americans. As for individual prejudice, you can't legislate that away. You guys are just as bad, if not worse. Look at the howls on the net every time anyone mentions a Somali woman having any kind of relationship with a non-Somali man. Look at how frequently you use terms like gaal and kafir in a negative way.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 04:44 am mad mad > There is NO institutional prejudice against native Americans. LOL. Then who instituted, organized, established, created the sytem or the concentration/reservation camps for the so called red indians? it is not individual thing, dude; it is an institution, a system which was setup to keep these people (the right owners of this land) down. indain reservation camps means to these poor people the loss of ancestral lands and because these reservations isolate these so called red indains (the real owners of this land called america) from the rest of America. this isolation makes it harder for the so called red indians to move off the reservations and find good jobs in towns and cities. this isolation also contributes to depression and the abuse of alcohol among the so called red indians. this process and system still exist, dude. it is not an indivudual prejudice; it is an institional prejudice. > How come my Native American heritage doesn't count? maybe your grandmother was one of the survivors of the trail of tears. also, the chidlren of the so called red indains were robbed from their mothers and fathers and were forced to give up their language, culture and assimilate the european culture. LOL
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 05:04 am guys?? this is boring!!!! can't believe the subject is red indians?why?what happen to hawiya the moryans?eh
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 06:39 am Anonymous Well they say a conversation that drifts is healthy. Anyway, I didn't bring it up, Asad did. Asad No she waas not a survivor from the trial of tears - that was 170 years ago!!!!! She was from a small tribe in Maine. So let me get this straight. You're saying that the reservations should be abolished and Native Americans fully integrated into mainstream society regardless of their preference. It's not as if the people who now occupy America can turn back the clock and change history. They can't give it back. Of course American Indians have to assimilate. If they try to live culturally and socially isolated they will struggle more than they do now. I guess the reservation system could be abolished but I don't think the Indians themselves would concur with that and the courts are now ruling to protect them and the status of their reservations. But make no mistake, a lot of Indians do move off and assimilate. Like I said, myself notwithstanding I know a number of them.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 07:48 am mad mac, >No she waas not a survivor from the trial of tears every one of the so called red indains are the survivors of the trail of tears because the fathers and mothers and children who did not die because of the trail of tears produced those who are now here. the forced removal of the so called red indains from their homelands were herded into stockades and marched to concentration camps but thousands died of disease, exposure, or fatigue. your gradmother came from the survivors of this trail of tears, dude. > You're saying that the reservations should be abolished and Native Americans fully integrated into mainstream society >regardless of their preference. no, i'm saying you are denying that suffering that the so called red indains still suffer is an institutional prejudice that keeps these poor people down. you are saying that it is the result of a few individuals---"an individual prejudice, not institutional prejudice". >Of course American Indians have to assimilate there is such a thing called *forced assimilation* dome by the law or the institutional prejudice on the chidlren of the so called red indains. these children were robbed from their mothers and fathers and were forced to give up their language, culture and assimilate the european culture. some of these children's children are ones that were forced to assimilate and they were given christainity as their religion. atrocities such as these, after scalping, attacking and killing mothers and fathers were not just the result of a few individuals but were built into the very social fabric of anglo culture. the so called red indian children were kidnapped and placed on chistain homes. if the parents of these chidlren were dead or killed by the white men, then other white men had the authority to assign an orphan for christian homes until the child reached the age of 25--by that time, he or she was brainwashed. the kidnapping of children and sale of Indian children was commonplace; thus, the forced assimilation.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 11:02 am Amin Asad!.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 11:43 am mad mac before you study slave and indian history-ya know ya own history as ahumanbeing from da day u were born to da day u became a grown retard?ya have to know ya self before ya pretend ya iz dr LEAKEY...YA HEARD ME
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 04:30 pm Mad can ask himslef as a white man how much does he expect others to look like him, act like him, talk like him, and live like him?. The kind of assimilation white people demand from others is unacceptable. They base the intelligence of others according to their own, History without a white man is not a history. Many of the pioneering in the world were done by non westerners but few are mentioned and if those nonwhites ever find themselves in the history books their names are deformed to hide their origins. For example, who would think these scientists in the western books were muslims and non whites: "(Algorizm)(Thebit)(Albategnius)(Albucasis)(Avicenna) (Arzachel) (Avenzoar)(Averroes)" just to name a few. The trend that bothers nonwhites is the obsolute demand of giving up one's culture and the compromise people have to make to adapt a life they should be avoiding at any cost. Names are invented for those who resist the changes, access to media is restricted, the most sinister of all is the globalization that is causing much headache already in many parts of the world. If you look to any organization it is based on whiteman's ideals and needs. It looks like the whole world must bow to the whiteman's needs or else people have to suffer if they resist. Even the Americas westerners take pride in its discovery was not truly the discovery of a white man but non white as indicated in the notebook of colombus and many scholars today argue about it. Who can just lie and lie and lie forever?.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 09:40 pm Asad and cool You guys are obssessive. Let's start with the trail of tears. The trail of tears references a very specific event - the forced migration of the Cherokee from their recognized boundaries (for which they had a treaty) to areas in Arkansas and Oklahoma. Of course this forced resettlement was criminal. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Cherokee and the President, with the consent of the congress, threw them out anyway. This is called the tyranny of the majority and it should never happen. All American history is not a history of righteousnous. Nor is it all about oppressing the poor monorities of the world. You guys need some perspective. Asad, you blabber on about the indignities suffered by the American Indian but not once have you made your point. What course of action are you now advocating? President John F. Kennedy stated in one of his famous adresses that the American History with the Indians is a shameful one. But as I said before, we can not undo history. You have yet to make a single concrete suggesstion about exactly what institutional prejudice you wish to change. Cool, I don't expect people to look or act like me. I do expect them to act civilized - civilized being defined as respecting other peoples opinions and basic rights. The old "Do unto to others as you want them to do unto you." Now don't start about "The White man, or Your ancestors...blah blah blah." My ancestors were poor farmers and bakers. They had no influence on history. But even if my great great great grandfather were the infamous president Jackson himself, I'm not him. I'm not my father. I'm me. You can only judge me by what I do, not by what others did. Anonymous - I think I have a pretty good graasp of history. Do you? All three of you say that my beliefs are tarred by conventional history - overlooking the fact that much of my life has been lived outside of the US. You keep making assumptions which in many cases are false. Now on to the subject of globalization. The worlds economy has been flowing with trade for thousands of years. Globalization is nothing new. A new word to an old theme. Countries that trade successfully (witness Japan) can become wealthy doing it. Countries that shut off trade wither and die (witness North Korea). In my opinion the fundamental problem that many poor countries have to wrestle with now is corruption - the weak economies of places like Kenya can't get a jump start because money the Kenyan government is borrowing from the IMF and World Bank is being stolen before it is invested. And the graft is not being circulated in the Kenyan economy but rather sent to foreign bank accounts somewhere like Switzerland. I personaly think we'd be doing these countries a big favor if we abolished their debt and cut off the money train - no future loans until their economic growth reached a certain figure or some other standard. As Hobbes once said, people pretty much get the governments they deserve. This was true of the Germans in WW II, it was true of the Russians and it's true now. Now back to the main point. The United States is a recognized country with recognized borders. It has a recognized form of government. You may not like it, that's your right. But that doesn't change the fact that it exists. Your not liking it won't change it.
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| | Friday, June 16, 2000 - 11:48 pm mad. Mad, We are not here to deny you your deserved rights as a person. We are only discussing about history that shaped how we live today And who was responsible for it. You said; <You keep making assumptions which in many cases are false.> Okey, looking at everything you write, we can conclude you are the biggest assumer of all times, the history writer from bootcamp Bosnia, and the jackall for anything discussed. Chill dude, don't get emotional and say aaaaaah. Where is the damn psychological training you were given in case you become a BOW?. Don't start shooting false accusations at people when you have lots of it.
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| | Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 08:24 am mad mac, > You have yet to make a single concrete > suggesstion about exactly what institutional > prejudice you wish to change. i do not think our suggestions can change anything. you and and i are not in here to change anything. i'm here to refute your notion that says "There is NO institutional prejudice against native Americans.". i'm here to tell you that you are lying when you say that "the reservation is nothing but an advantage." for the natives americans. i'm here to tell you that indain reservation camps ar the means to oppress people who lost of their ancestral lands to the laws of this country. i'm here to tell yo that the concentration camps were setup to isolate these so called red indains (the real owners of this land called america) from the rest of America. this isolation makes it harder for the so called red indians to move off the reservations and find good jobs in towns and cities. this isolation also contributes to depression and the abuse of alcohol among the so called red indians. this process of oppression and the institutional prejudice against these poor people in their land still exist. you say it is "an indivudual prejudice" and i say it is "an institional prejudice." that is the point you need to realize. about the trail of tears, it is not only a very specific event; it is what the machine of oppression (the institutional prejudice) makes run continuiously. you say this is not at all about oppressing the poor monorities; i say you are lying and it is time that you need some perspective: "I hear Natives and nonNatives alike speak of the reservation camps with great affection. I've heard all ages of Indians apologize for having never lived on a reservation. And, nonNatives speak of the reservation as if it represents the very essence of "Indian-ness." People wake up! Reservations do NOT represent American Indian culture! Never have and never will. Reservations were and STILL are, forced upon us..... Little more than 200 years ago, our people fought with their lives to prevent being rounded up like cattle and forced onto reservations (Prisoner of war camps). Today too many people on and off reservations have been programmed (compliments of the media and government) to accept the demeaning reservation lifestyle as a romantic part of our culture. Reservations are about as romantic, as road-kill. Why did our people die from broken hearts in the past and die from alcoholism today? Because reservations are demoralizing obstacles that help prevent our people from becoming the best they can be. The government force behind reservations encourages our dependence upon government and tribal charity under the guise of humanity. There is nothing humanitarian about making a person feel like a low-class citizen. Or, making a person feel guilty if he doesn't accept charity and handouts. Enrolled Natives living on the reservation are eligible for all the government funding programs that exist. And, there are hundreds! Why? Because government programs mean government spending and government jobs. If the government programs are helping our people, why are the commodity lines growing instead of shrinking? Why is alcoholism, poverty and poor health just as rampant today as it was over fifty years ago? Because these programs have not helped and will never help people who feel like life is not worth living. What makes a person feel like life is worth living? By being self reliant. How do you help people become self reliant? Jobs! So, what's the problem if all it takes is jobs? Other than tribal and government jobs, there's no such thing as industry jobs on federally closed reservations where the highest suicide rates exist. Legal red-tape discourages industry from setting up on closed reservations. Check it out for yourselves! Have you ever wondered what would happen if all the government and tribal "help" programs actually helped people? You know what would happen. They would have no one left to help. They would have to close their doors and they would have to look for another job. But, since there are no other jobs, that would be hard to do. So, do they want to be unemployed? Of course not. If they become unemployed, they would end up on the receiving end of those help programs. So, what's actually going on? Do you think there's enough government and tribal jobs for every working age adult on a federally closed reservation? Not when most of the jobs require college degrees. What's the answer? Recognizing the facts! I've been at the bottom. Accepted the handouts and gone to the alcohol programs. They didn't improve my life. Talking to counselors made me feel like a scum-ball and stupid. I tried suicide. I'm not alone in my way of thinking. I've talked to cell-mates who agree that the lack of blue-collar jobs causes most of the problems on closed reservations. More "help" programs isn't the answer. I had to leave the reservation in order to feel like life was worth living. I got a job in forestry. Social programs don't help people get good jobs like that. My uncle off the reservation helped me. For the first time ever, I felt good about my life. I just wanted to tell someone what a reservation feels like from someone who's been there. No one wants to leave because that's where all our families are. Very few want the reservation to dissolve only because the unknown scares them. Why doesn't the media and people see reservations for what they really are? They aren't part of our culture, if anything reservations are destroying our culture by slowly destroying the people." AND here mad mac says "For native Americans, the reservation is nothing but an advantage." and that the indains in the concentration camps get "a special status that oftentimes allows it to ignore local law." and "Nor is it all about oppressing the poor monorities of the world." !!!!!
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| | Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 05:41 pm MY GOD ASAD ..CAN U WRITE MY ESSAY FOR ME...PLEASE.....YA HAVE ENERGY
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| | Saturday, June 17, 2000 - 07:47 pm Maryan, Asad wrote just about as many words as Mad Mac did. Why did not you ask Mad Mac to help you also?
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 05:22 am Asad Impressive diatribe, but again what's your point? The Native Americans do not own the land that constitutes the US. Even when there were no Europeans, Indians tended to be nomadic and really had areas they considered to belong to their tribe. Hence the frequent inter-Indian conflict as nomadic tribes bumped into each other. Anyway, all that history is irrelevant. Whether the reservations are a good deal for the Indians or a way to isolate them and keep them down (and there's really no reason to do that today - there aren't that many of them left anyway), it doesn't matter. The point is the US is a recognized state with recognized borders and I'm a citizen of it. Therefore, back to the original subject matter I can say Somalis are welcome. So there!
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 07:36 am MAD MAC I could not comment of the history of the indians but i could comment predicately on common sense basis and that is you should not talk about the indians so insensitively as you do.You say there arent that many of them left anyway'...thats insensitive!and another issue -its true the indians do not own the entire land and possible true they were nomadics and had conflicts among them, not disputed-however it is also true that a considerable perentageof good land that the indians occupied were forcefully robbed from them by your so called 'european settlers.Thats an undisputable fact.the europeans were free to occupy unclaimed land in north american -'then' frontier but they had no right to use crude,manipulating tactics that enable the indians to perish in calculated viscious manner.anyway what am i talking about.....i was just ..i guess ..temporary displeased with your tone of insensitiveness!! thanx and by the way....you guys have very interesting debate going on...i was compeled to come back here-anyway bye! to ? ok mad mac can u write my essay for me?
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 08:04 am mad mac >Impressive diatribe, but again what's your point? the point was to refute the laughable diatribe of yours: "the reservation is nothing but an advantage." > The Native Americans do not own the land that constitutes the US. then who owns it---the Europeans? the last time i checked the map, the europeans had to cross the atlantic to get to the land called "new world"--america. >Even when there were no Europeans, Indians tended to be nomadic and really had areas they considered to >belong to their tribe. so europeans discovered no man's land---is that "his-story" your selling, mad mac? i always heard the europeans discovering some lands and then claiming to be theirs-- even when the people who live in these areas "bumped into each other" once a while. >Anyway, all that history is irrelevant. how can your "his-story" be irrelevant when you throw it out there like it is true? >Whether the reservations are a good deal for the Indians or a way to isolate them and keep them down (and >there's really no reason to do that today - there aren't that many of them left anyway), it doesn't matter. it matters when you sell your version of "his-story" to us and say "the reservation is nothing but an advantage." >The point is the US is a recognized state with recognized borders and I'm a citizen of it. well, most of the real "americans" whose ancestors never crossed oceans to the US---are nothing but second class citizens in their own land. >Therefore, back to the original subject matter I can say Somalis are welcome. So there! there are thousands of somalis who are also citizens of this country, but it is just so happens they are late comers to this country-- unlike the early refugees who landed on some islands in new york or in boston-- where the so called red indians used to roam and lived freely, only then to be rounded and killed like animals---then whatever left was put in concentration camps.
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 09:14 am Asad You missed my whole point dude. Look, I'm not saying the Europeans were right. But you're saying it matters and I'm saying it doesn't. Now look, the US is now a country. It's citizens come from all over the planet. Whether the Indians were rounded up, killed, eaten or whatever, it don't matter in 2001. We can't undo it. Frankly, I still think the Reservation system is now an advantage the the remaining Indians - but I also don't care. They constitute a very small minority of the population. If they want to leave the reservation they can - and many do (like my great grandparents). That's up to them. Meanwhile, now in 2001, I am a US citizen, as much as the next US citizen. And guess what I have the same rights, no more and no less, than someone who is full blooded Iroquios (my grandmothers tribe), or someone who just became a citizen (like some Somali guy). In America you are SUPPOSE to be judged based on who you are - not who your father was. I realize some people are not bright enough to figure that out - but in theory that's the way it's suppose to work.
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 09:17 am Maryan What's your Essay about? If the subject is nuclear physics then I'm out of my depth. If it's nuclear war then I can help you. Oh yeah, I'm definately insensitive. You better have pretty thick skin if you want to discuss anything on these pages. Besides, there ain't too many Native Americans patrolling ol' Somalinet.
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 10:04 am mad mac, >You missed my whole point dude. Look, I'm not saying the Europeans were right. yeah. the europeans were not right to do what they did. they were wrong to steal lands from these people and kill the owners of the land. >But you're saying it matters and I'm saying it doesn't. it matters to the people whose forefathers were killed and robbed. >Now look, the US is now a country. so what? >It's citizens come from all over the planet. i knew that. :-) i'm one of them. >Whether the Indians were rounded up, killed, eaten or whatever, it don't matter in 2001. tell that to the real indians. >We can't undo it. it is sad, isn't it? >Frankly, I still think the Reservation system is now an advantage the remaining Indians - but I also don't care. again, you are wrong. i disagree when you say: "the reservation is nothing but an advantage." and the real indians who experience this know about it. >they constitute a very small minority of the population. and who is responsible of that and made them minorities and second class citizens, your grandpatents? >If they want to leave the reservation they can - and many do (like my great grandparents). it is very hard for most of them to leave from the concentration camps. the system (institutional prejudice) makes it very hard. isolation makes it harder for the so called red indians to move off the reservations and find good jobs in towns and cities. this isolation also contributes to depression and the abuse of alcohol among the so called red indians. it is not an "individual prejudice; it is an "institutional prejudice" that makes it hard. "Legal red-tape discourages industry from setting up on closed reservations. Check it out for yourselves! Have you ever wondered what would happen if all the government and tribal "help" programs actually helped people? You know what would happen. They would have no one left to help. They would have to close their doors and they would have to look for another job. But, since there are no other jobs, that would be hard to do. So, do they want to be unemployed? Of course not. If they become unemployed, they would end up on the receiving end of those help programs". it is the government, stupid. >In America you are SUPPOSE to be judged based on who you are - not who your father was. SUPPOSE to be in practical, not in theory, right? >I realize some people are not bright enough to figure that out like the so called red indians, right? maybe they are too dump to realize that they are not really victims as people think they are. maybe the white men is the victims here and it is time that people figure this out. :-) > but in theory that's the way it's suppose to work. you can say that again---not in practical. :-)
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 11:35 am Dear Mad MAc It is quite surprising that you want to contribute to a topic that you are least aware about it. Iam a lecturer of history for the past twelve years, and have'nt come across any somali involvement in the slave trade business, iam not going to dispell off your arguements, however if you have any proof to that effect, then come forward with it as you will create knowledge in the schorlarly world.
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 07:19 pm shout out YES...dear anonymous ..mad mac will certainly create a knowledge in the scholarly world...
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| | Sunday, June 18, 2000 - 11:17 pm Dear brothers and sisters Baantu = Xabasho,Jareer, Reer-Shabeele,So colled slave-Monkey look a like,big nosed timo jareer Somaaliys,Soomaal-Niger. The other Somaalis that your mother would not let you marry I hope you people get the big picture. They were your slave, worked for you if not the guy next door or your uncle Xuseen's house or aunt saciids house.
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| | Monday, June 19, 2000 - 02:42 am Deeqa, are you by any chance a Baantu or were the Baantu your slaves who worked for your parents back home?
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| | Monday, June 19, 2000 - 06:54 am Deeqa....What's the point you're trying to make..? What about them..? can't you see those Jamaicans and African-americans you guys running after...?instead of pointing your twisted mouth towards real muslims who are our brothers...shame on you!
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| | Monday, June 19, 2000 - 08:00 pm deeqo. sidee kaa noqotey?. maxaa waaye waxan aad sheegeyso?.
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| | Monday, June 19, 2000 - 10:18 pm Asad Again, you never made a single point. You never said anything that indicates: a. I am not a citizen of the US. b. What you would do to alter the status of the American Indian. I also note that you have been infected with that curious habit of judging groups. Bad habit. You talk about me in categorical terms (the white man). What if I were to say "Look, you're just a stupid pathetic Somali. Look what you've done to their country. You won't even live there. They're all a bunch of rapists and murderers. Somalis are scum and should go back to Somalia." Actually there are some Somalis who are rapists and murderers who have victimized others. There were some white Americans who persecuted American Indians and there were many who never even met one. In the event, the violent aspect of that chapter was long ago. I had nothing to do with it. People who judge others by the Group are morons. People who are pissed off about the past will never focus on the future. They see enemies where none exist. Everything becomes a conspiracy. So back to my original point. I'm as American as the next person. I'm even part American Indian, as if that gave me some sort of special qualifications. So I can say Somalis are welcome and my vote is just as valid as any other Americans. Lastly, note the vehemence with which Deeqa, who stated the obvious for those requiring scholarly evidence, was attacked. Anyone who thinks "their people" be they Muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever, enjoy some special place in history and have a superior culture or couldn't possibly be involved in evil things, is totally naive.
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 01:03 am At last you have agreed that you are naive MAD MAC.Remember the topic about Africa in the Economist?To be good liar you must have a good memory.You are either a pretender or a moron suffering from double personality syndrome.Which one are you MAD MAC?
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 04:13 am mad mad, >Again, you never made a single point. and you did? :-) >You never said anything that indicates a. I am not a citizen of the US. you say "Somalis are welcome in the U.S. as long as they want to stay" as if this indicates that somalis need your (mad mac's) permision to come and stay here. ! >b. What you would do to alter the status of the American Indian. i told you that--i am not in here to alter anything. if anyone is atering and lying about the status (the standing and the condition) of the american indians is you, moron. i told you that i'm here to refute your notion that says "There is NO institutional prejudice against native Americans.". i'm here to tell you that you are lying when you say that "the reservation is nothing but an advantage." for the natives americans. i'm here to tell you that indain reservation camps are the means to oppress people who lost of their ancestral lands to the laws of this country. i'm here to tell yo that the concentration camps were setup to isolate these so called red indains (the real owners of this land called america) from the rest of America. > I also note that you have been infected with that curious habit of judging groups. Bad habit no, i'm correcting your lies ( your "his-story") which you are trying to infect (and contaminate) on here----by mis-judging some groups who are the victims of the bad habits of another group--which by the way were not the result of just few "individuals"---but the habits of the very social fabric of anglo culture that exist to this day. >There were some white Americans who persecuted American Indians and there were many who never even met one. actually, not some individual white americans, but many and many of them actually participated the killing and many many of them (whites) cheered and supported the act of killing and removal of people from their homes to concerntation camps by the government. the habits and the very social fabric of anglo culture even made movies about that debict the victims as villains-----how the cow-boys in the movies (john wayne) used to safe "victims" (the poor white europeans who came here) from "villains" (these "savages", the so called red indians who were attacking and eating white babies). > People who judge others by the Group are morons. people who mis-judge others and lying about their condtions by saying "the reservation is nothing but an advantage."----are nothing but morons.
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 04:42 am mad mad, >Anyone who thinks "their people" be they Muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever, enjoy some special place in history >and have a superior culture or *couldn't possibly be involved in evil things*, is totally naive. Observer, so mad mad is "totally naive" in his thinking by saying "Everything becomes a conspiracy" if the USA governemt "could not possibly be involve in evil things"---(institutional prejudice).
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 04:58 am Mad is a broad man who has a proplem somalis telling him things.. that is why he is the only rational person..in the forums..
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 09:12 am Cool, I'm not the only rational person - it just seems that way sometimes. Asad Let's start at the beginning. I said, as far as I'm concerned, Somalis are welcome. The collective reply was that I should not get a vote - because my ancestors took the land by force. This conversation diverged to one about the status of the reservation. I'm not sure why, so for now I'll address the root issues at hand and finish with the reservation issue. A. I did not deny that the Indians got a raw deal. You will remember I quoted Kennedy when he said that our dealings with the American Indian were a shameful chapter in American history. I can cite other such chapters, such as our slave past. I am not denying America has a checkered past. What I said is that that is irrelevant. We are not the sum of where we came from. I never wrote the "USA could not possibly be involved in evil things". That's total BS and manipulation. B. I do not have special status to invite Somalis. I made the statement of support to Somali presence as an individual - which is what all statements here on the net are. C. You frequently use the term lying. To lie is to deliberately deceive. If someone believes something different from you, even if it's false, it is not a lie. If I say it snowed last year in Baidoa and you say no it didn't, if I believe it snowed then it's not a lie. I'm wrong. There's a difference. In debate if you want to correct what you believe are my misperceptions that's fine - even if you're wrong, which in this case you are. But to assail someone you are discussing a subject with as a liar infers that that person is deliberately trying to deceive and that's simply not the case here. D. Originally you said that you were not assailing a group, merely correcting my "lies" (My "His-story"). Then you subsequently go on to explain how the destruction of the American Indian is the fault of "not some white American, but many and many of them." Again, it's obvious in your tone that you are, in fact, assailing Europeans and White Americans as a criminal culture responsible for all the worlds ills. This is poor history and also counter-productive. The way to have a positive influence on a culture or government is not by repeatedly insulting it. E. True enough, there were movies depicting the Indians as wild savages, but there were movies such as Little Big Man and Dances With Wolves which painted the white man as the bad guys. Of course, the truth is that there was a clash in culture, lifestyle, and economies when the Indians and European settlers met, and in most cases (not all) violent conflict was inevitable. But you are obsessed with seeing this as a struggle between good and evil and this has caused you to lose perspective. F. People who mis-judge others are not necessarily morons. They may be mis-informed. No one ever knows everything about anything. The possibility that two people look at the same facts and draw different conclusions happens all the time. That's why eye witness reporting in court cases is notoriously unreliable. Again, I have little interest in the Reservation system. I don't doubt for a New York minute that there are some vested interests by certain interests groups (be that Indian or other) to maintain the reservations. I also know that any attempt to abolish the reservations will be met with a court fight in which the Indians who wish to maintain the reservations will win. One hundred years ago that would not be the case, but it is today. So we're really pissing in the wind on this one. You have an idea fixed in your head that Western Civilization has some intrinsic flaw in it. You fail to understand that ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY is that of the strong dominating the weak. Considering that militarily the US could physically take whatever it wanted from the rest of the world right now, it acts with a restraint which the world has heretofore not seen. You are not looking at the big picture or the overall contrext of the human condition. America is not perfect - I'm not claiming it is. Frankly, I am not a supporter of many of our current foreign policies. But to simply lump everything that is Anglo into one bag and declare that it's •••• is a gross over-simplicfication.
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 11:20 am mad mac, >so for now I'll address the root issues at hand and finish with the reservation issue: >A. I did not deny that the Indians got a raw deal. but you down played and kept saying that ""the reservation is nothing but an advantage." > B.I do not have special status to invite Somalis. I made the statement of support to Somali presence as an individual - which is what all statements here on the net are. and no one said or indicated that you are not a citizen of the US. >C. You frequently use the term lying. To lie is to deliberately deceive. If someone believes something different from you, even if it's false, it is not a lie. like a child, you frequently resort to insults by calling anyone who disagrees with you a moron. which one is worst the term---"lair" or "moron"? >D.Originally you said that you were not assailing a group, merely correcting my "lies" (My "His-story"). Then you subsequently go on to explain how the destruction of the American Indian is the fault of "not some white American, but many and many of them." that is because you keep saying the destruction of the american indains is the fault of "few indivituals". i have nothing against all whites and i have no connection with the natives, but i'm telling you--that is not the case. >E. Of course, the truth is that there was a clash in culture, lifestyle, and economies when the Indians and European settlers met, and in most cases (not all) violent conflict was inevitable. But you are obsessed with seeing this as a struggle between good and evil and this has caused you to lose perspective. the clash between the europeans and the natives when the eurpeans first came to here was nothing but evil destruction and to down play that and say there were some "good" things in it for the natives is misleading or obsession to false information. >F. People who mis-judge others are not necessarily morons. They may be mis-informed. if you are not a moron, then you are saying you are a naive, not too bright to realize the fact from mis-information. > So we're really pissing in the wind on this one. finally, you said it. the "WE" word. you kept saying the "YOU" word--to me and over-looking yourself. "you never made a single point" as if your pissing in the wind was making points. >You fail to understand that ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY is that of the strong dominating the weak. Considering that militarily the US could physically take whatever it wanted from the rest of the world right now, it acts with a restraint which the world has heretofore not seen. you make me laugh sometimes. are you telling me now that americans are so strong and they could go to china (or the rest of the world right now) and take whatever they want from any country, but that they are really so nice and they restrain themselves because they polite (civilized). LOL
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 12:21 pm mad mad, >You fail to understand that ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY is that of the strong dominating the weak. is relativism all good or all bad? to say that relativsim (strong dominating the weak--survival of the fittest) is good and bad is foolish.
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 03:19 pm Asad "Af waakoo may laka ameee" Go help your freaking Somaali brothers.......... Stooooooooooooooop "Beenta" for once and all lets be civilized here....Liar liar your pants on fire! We were Slave traders. We still have slaves in Somaalia....Jareerta are treated like sh*t, there is qabiilo Somali ah oo la soo gatey don't make me mention the rest of that story Okeey mope head Basically MAD-MAC IS RIGHT...............don't wana here no more of Quuq and Jaqaaq I don't freaking care what Americans did million years ago, I like them! I love them! For all the good things they have done for us.......Did ya thank them ? Maya Imagine what is going to happen if they start deporting your a*** to Somaalia like Saudis do? haaa? U are going to take of and hide Uncle Joe's house "the church" right? Beg them to death? U don't wana go back home cause heaven is here.. C? Now I want to know wht did you guys and your great grandfathers did for Somaaliya? Let me help U with this one okeey Asad and all the Maangaabyaal, your awooweyaal freaking robed my country and U the younger generation, destroyed the rest of my beloved Somaalia I don't care if U are mooriyaan or not you guys look like + act-like + and think alike......... U people killed some of my relatives ...How about Revenge now? •••• is that going to work??? I Did not think so, U son of Guns.... How many times do I have to tell ya lets clean our Garbage b4 we talk to others.. Shame on ya ppl.. Naaaaaaaah don't want hear U did not do it! How about all Gaalo are the same and all Somalis are the same.....After all isn't that what u doing to MadMac now????????? Shape up or ship out ......I wish I have the power to kick ur ass so I can c what U look like Sad with long face huuh?.........hehehe!ok I am just joking don't wana c U eat each other! hahah! Peace
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 07:53 pm she, >Asad "Af waakoo may laka ameee" Go help your freaking Somaali brothers.......... are you one of the freaking somaalis? >Stooooooooooooooop "Beenta" for once and all lets be civilized here....Liar liar your pants on fire! what "Beenta". maybe you are confused me with another person. >We still have slaves in Somaalia how many slaves did your father and mother have in the house you grew up, she? >Jareerta are treated like sh*t are you one of the people who treated Jareerta like ••••? do not tell me you are not. >there is qabiilo Somali ah oo la soo gatey don't make me mention the rest of that story Okeey let me make you mention the rest of that story, she. > mope head Basically MAD-MAC IS RIGHT...............don't wana here no more of Quuq and Jaqaaq who cares what you want to hear? >I don't freaking care what Americans did million years ago, I like them! I love them! For all the good things they have done for us do you hate your father and mother who used to slave the Jareerta? > Did ya thank them ? Maya did the Jareerta thank the slave masters(your somali father)? >Imagine what is going to happen if they start deporting your a*** to Somaalia like Saudis do? are you afraid that the slave masters (your father and uncles) will be slaves in somalia if they are deported their a*** to their plantations. >Now I want to know wht did you guys and your great grandfathers did for Somaaliya? i think your father and uncles did slave the other somalis, right? >Let me help U with this one okeey Asad and all the Maangaabyaal, your awooweyaal freaking robed my country and U the younger generation, destroyed the rest of my beloved Somaalia I don't care if U are mooriyaan or not you guys look like + act-like + and think alike......... what about your awooweyaal, what did they do? and what do they look like---are they different than the other somalis? let me guess----they are not Jareer, right? >U people killed some of my relatives ...How about Revenge now? is that going to work??? oh..your people are the "victims", right? >Naaaaaaaah don't want hear U did not do it! if i did not do it, did you do it? >How about all Gaalo are the same and all Somalis are the same.....After all isn't that what u doing to MadMac now????????? if the Gaalo are the same and if the all somalis are the same, are you different than maryooleey? >Shape up or ship out ......I wish I have the power to kick ur ass so I can c what U look like Sad with long face huuh? how many sad faces did you and your awoowayaashaada see when they did used to ship the slaves? do not tell me your father and awoowayaashaada were not slave masters.
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| | Tuesday, June 20, 2000 - 09:42 pm Asad You have a remarkable ability to twist words. She did not say her father was a slaver. You inserted that up front and then went on to state it as fact. But even if her father was a slaver, that is not a reflection on her. She is not responsible for what her parents did. The "Real Victims" of Somalias civil war collectively (and I hate to do the collective thing because there were lots of victims who don't fit the model) where the Rahanweyne, the Digil, the Rehr Iamer and the other minorities. The Haber Gedir benefited but at great cost - almost bled white. Depending on how you look at it, one could argue that the ••••• ultimately benefited as did the Majertain. They have essentially set up their own autonomous regions. I guess at the end of the day no one really benefited much. You want to talk about something tragic we can talk about the destruction of Somalia - more Somalis have died in the last 20 ears than Indians in all of the 19th century. You want to complain about American complain about the fact that we quit in Somalia before we finished the job.
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 02:18 am Which job?MAD MAC to me you are just another warlord with bloody hands.Shame on you who participated in killing innocent women and children.
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 04:17 am mad mad, >You have a remarkable ability to twist words. She did not say her father was a slaver. i did not twist anythings. she herself said "We were Slave traders" and "We still have slaves in Somaalia and "all Somalis are the same". so if we still have slaves in somalia and all the somalis are the same, then her father must have been a slaver if he was a somali, right? > But even if her father was a slaver, that is not a reflection on her. She is not responsible for what her parents did. but she thinks all somali people were slave owners, including her and her father. >You want to complain about American complain about the fact that we quit in Somalia before we finished the job. that is nice. you quit in somalia because you americans "are so strong and can take whatever you want and do to anyone----that is really so nice of you to let the somalis live and not die/finish the job. LOL
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 04:48 am I am laughing out loud at this circus.. of our slavetrading girl and our indian exterterminator.. They both should accept.. their responsibility of being part of human suffering.. and hardship.. from the way SHE talks.. her family must have owned slaves... Mad doesn't even need referral.. of his background.. Mad says <She did not say her father was a slaver.>.why not Mad.. her father shares.. the slavetrading with somalis...and following her conviction...he was a merciless slave owner.. for she must have seen him doing his murderous..whips on them...to talk like these...or paying minimal wages to them or nothing except food....after employing four in the kitchen and five in the garden... She says <Now I want to know wht did you guys and your great grandfathers did for Somaaliya? > Looking at your family's dirty bussiness.. of slavetrading... your answer.. is nothing but..slavetrading... <U are going to take of and hide Uncle Joe's house "the church" right? Beg them to death? U don't wana go back home cause heaven is here.. C? > No wonder somalis say.. nin waliba siduu yuhuu ku moodaa. Looking at your love and devotion for gaalo.. you are the one who...if not already.. would renounce his allegeince to being somali and muslim.. thus should be left alone.. as for us.. the grave is the one that separates us from .. both islam and somalism... Don't reflect your insecurity on somalis...and project it on us.. we are not you.. a decendant of slavemasters..and the decendants of muruqmaal and xoolo raacato... proad people who rely on their skills of survival.. can not stand on trial as one people... <Naaaaaaaah don't want hear U did not do it! How about all Gaalo are the same and all Somalis are the same.....After all isn't that what u doing to MadMac now?????????>... Do you mean you came to your senses now... not to generalize people.. mad mac needs this more than anybody else.. since birds of a flock fly together.. and you are close to mad.. why not advice him not.. to lie when he talks about somalis.... or hypocricy is your way of getting even with the people you hate so much but pretend to be among them.. speaking somali doesn't mean anything nowadays.. if you think we buy your tailoring of yourself to us.. by way of speaking the language and poison our wells and community centers with your lies ... well... we can't be fooled...TO BE OR NOT BE... ALL THOSE WHO CLAIM SOMALIS ARE NOT SOMALIS...You might as well wish to change your skin colour to look more like american so you don't have to regret being black woman.. how many times did you blame god.. for your skin colour.. since you can't assimilate in this colour driven society... your devotion and love didn't convice them and will not convince either... your obidience to them... Let alone your renounciation of islam... Little you know.. whatever you do.. you will not be the nice girl you wanna be in this society.. rules and regulations of being the nice girl... doesn't include black skinned.. in case you didn't know.. I have an idea... Mad can take care of you.. since he is white... and american.. since you both.. have the same background of slave trading and proffess no religious connection to no party.. go solo if you didn't do already<which I suspect didn't happen>...and save us from these lies and moronic stories nobody ever heard of..uh?. what do you say SHE..?. I am sure mad can help you heal your wounds of yourslef hatred and despicable views you have about your forefathers...the poor shepherds or camel herders.. little they knew... a sold out from their decendant would throw on them all kinds.. of deception and lies on them.. only to their.. amazement.. that her intended audinence.. is no more.. than gaalo...
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 06:57 am she, >Imagine what is going to happen if they start deporting your a*** to Somaalia like Saudis do? imagine what is going to happen if the natives americans (the real americans) start deporting whites to europone---who will you thank then, she? >>I don't freaking care what Americans did million years ago, I like them! american indains do care what happened to them. if you like the white americans, do you hate the american indians since you do not care them, she? > I love them! For all the good things they have done for us do you love what they did to the american indians?
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 07:16 am ASAD GO KNEEL DOWN AND PROPOSE TO THEM IF YOU LOVE THEM THAT MUCH.......WOULD YOU MARRY ME?....NO I WONT? YOU ARE A NIGER? WE DONT MIX?
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 07:23 am Aisha (I love that name) I was refering to the job to ensure Somalia had a stable government before we withdrew. Mohamed Farah Aideed and his politcal organization, the SNA, bear the responsibility for the war between the UN and the Haber Gedir. We consistently tried to do the right thing in Somalia but were thwarted by Aideed and his suporters only because he was insistent on being the successor to Siad Barre. Compromise was not his way. Asad Come on, you used her own words to construct a convoluted logic trail that indicates that by her own admission all Somalis are slave traders and since she's Somali her father must be a slave trader - then you just as quickly reject the statement that Somalis were slave traders at all. So which is it? As for the governments decision to quit - that was the killer of it. We get into this pitched war with the SNA, we fight a number of engagements and we're kicking their ass. The Haber Gedir draw a little blood and our political leadership decides to quit. And all the Somalis that were counting on us to stay until there was a functioning government - we left them hanging. Now that was embarrasing. I'm not talking about "Letting them live." I'm talking about sucking it up and finishing the fight. If the SNA had been destroyed or forced to capitulate the way would have been made clear for a true settlement - because there were no other dominant players. All the other factions were ready to negotiaite. Aideed was dealing from a position of strength, so he didn't feel he had to negotiate. I'm convinced that if we had kept the pressure on the SNA they would have capitulated and Somalia would have a functioning government today. Cool, You're just out there man. I've never seen so many incessant references to "white" and "Gaal" in my life. And just because there's prejudice against blacks doesn't mean blacks can't make it in America or Canada. Lot's have. I'm sure She has made lots of friends and can assimilate not because she rejects anything (Islam, Somalis or whatever) but because she accepts others as equals. Your hostility drips from every line you write. It's always us against them. Never trust a white guy. Never trust a gaal.
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 07:57 am MAD MAC Hypocrisy must be part of your daily life i take it.You are a constant contradict- an illusionist-and a self made gabbage-naire! Why can't you just admit you are somali- and loose this play of shakespeare you are potraying.How can you know so much about somalia and even more knowledgable than most somalis are.so introduce yourself-as somali-hawiiya-and bow down and continue your shakespeare play sceene god know how many-and play!ok thank you!
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 08:34 am mad mac, >Come on, you used her own words to construct a convoluted logic trail that indicates that by her own admission all >Somalis are slave traders then you just as quickly reject the statement that Somalis were slave traders at all. So which is it? what is not straightforward and convoluted is this: "we were slave traders"--"we still have slaves in somalia". if her statment is not convoluted, then there is no which is which, because either she and her somali family are/were part of the slave trade that she is talking about or she must be lying.
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 09:55 am WHITEGUY, >ASAD GO KNEEL DOWN AND PROPOSE TO THEM IF YOU LOVE THEM THAT MUCH. I DO NOT HATE THEM. >......WOULD YOU MARRY ME?....NO I WONT? WHY WOULD A GUY MARRY ANOTHER GUY, WHITEGUY? >YOU ARE A NIGER? WE DONT MIX? ARE YOU SAYING WHITES (REDNECKS) ARE BETTER THAN NIGGERS?
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 10:25 am yeah am saying that!superior race!the more you have dark and curly hair,the more you belong to the lower chain of superiority!!eh!
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 11:06 am whiteguy, >yeah am saying that!superior race! is your god a white man (jesus)?
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 11:19 am whiteguy, >the more you have dark and curly hair,the more you belong to the lower chain of superiority!!eh! the image we see on the church walls--the white guy who has blue eyes, straight hair--is that what the white people worship, whiteguy? what a superior brain you guys have!!!
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 11:28 am asad jesus was white-and black were monkeys-read your history!
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 11:40 am whiteguy, >jesus was white and whites worship him, right? >black were monkeys i thought most of your white superior intellectuals (seientists) say they themselves came from monkeys.!
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 09:05 pm All Actually it's common knowledge that Jesus was a semite. He likely looked like the Jordanians of today - with a different taste in fashion. And without getting into a long, drawn out argument here, the principal of Christianity is really simple and has nothing to do with worshipping Issa. It's the basic principal that you should treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. Love God, love you neighbor. That's it. Everything else in Christianity is subject to debate - that's why there are so many Christian Churches. It's a shame that most Christians can't even figure this out and try and use the bible like moslems use the qur'an. Secondly, I am really not a Somali. I am an officer in the US Army who lived and fought in Somalis snd my job required me to learn about the political and clan structures and the personalities behind them. But if it's consolation to those on the net, some of my Somali friends call me the white Soomal. It's a pitty my language proficiency in Somali is so pathetic. I really need to learn it.
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| | Wednesday, June 21, 2000 - 10:53 pm Mad says <the principal of Christianity is really simple and has nothing to do with worshipping Issa>. I say the principal of christianity is TRINITY..God the father.. Jesus.. the devine son.. and the spirit.. ALL THREE IN ONE.. in that case.. they are all three gods in one... Mad mac.. you can fool people.. who haven't seen the bible.. or the Quran.. which both detail the belief of the christians.. that they worship jesus.. ask him forgiveness.. and expect after death.. He(Jesus). will take their soul to heaven.. All the church stresses is about Jesus.. all words of lordship in the church is a reference to Jesus.. I don't buy your lies here.. YOU WANT ME CITE THE CATHOLIC PRAYERS HERE?... WHITEGUY.. Who can you fool guys?.. Jesus belonged to the jewish people... you hate so much that you contemplate murdering them all.. because they killed.. your god.. and you worship nonwhite man given the geneology of jesus in the bible.. first chapter John..go revise it.. in case you are a drop out from the church.. which is likely given the confusion.. and..contradictions..you can't understand..this is madly insane mr white... you see.. supposedly intelligent people.. worshipping another human they call GOD.. and then that god was killed by jews.. and the jews have to be killed for that... is that a reasonable thinking of a human being?... I guess not.. So monkey muslims are more intelligent I gather... because they don't worship a killed god.. who couldn't defend himself.. or couldn't figure the jews were plotting against him...and tell your folks in the church.. they should stop portraying jesus as white..because he is a jew... a shocker uh?.. I think you knew that... how come otherwise?... here is the shocker for mad.. the three gods of christianity.. <* "therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19).> A more obvious shocker for the apologetic mad man.. <* "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (II Corinthians 13:14).> Now tell me... it is not clear fom there.. that you guys call and consider jesus you lord... I can go on and on from your own bible... your fabrications about jesus.. and his lordship... you are naive to think you are the only one who knows.. about christianity.. in the forums... Let me know if that is not convincing.. I have more in store... and there is no need to run away.. from useful debates if you are confident.. you have what it takes...and I know you are.. the smartest man in the forums... what do somalis know anyway?.. enlighten us teacher.. I beg.. your enlightenment...
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| | Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 09:13 am Coolman It is not convincing because the Bible is not considered devine. Muslims consider the Qur'an to be devine - the word of God. Christian scholars are not that dogmatic - at least most of them aren't. The Bible is a collection of historical events recorded by men who witnessed them. They are neccessarily subject to interpretation. That's why you can find contradictions in the Bible so easily. No intelligent Christian would ever claim that God wrote the Bible. You can cite all sorts of passages to your hearts content and use it to justify anything - and some people do. The value of the new testament is not in any one passage, it's the entire message taken as a whole. And that message is that which I have already relayed. I don't doubt you can find Christians who will disagree with me, but I did grow up in a Christian Church and I did read the Bible (and laborious reading it is) so IN MY OPINION I believe I'm on solid ground here. I believe that the evolution of the Christian Church which seeks to establish a special status for Issa is flawed. I am well aware that my opinion differs from the Qur'an which neccessarily associates the trinity with Christianity. To finalize my input to this discussion (Cool, if you want further religious debate E-Mail me) FYI I am not a Christian. I believe Issa was a prophet, not the son of God. But I try to adhere to that fundamental and basic Christian principal to treat others as you would want to be treated. Now whether or not I'm the smartest man in the forums is probably subject to debate - but I am a smart motherfucker. And definately the smartest white guy who ventures into this place with any frequency.
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| | Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 10:06 am mad mad, >I believe that the evolution of the Christian Church which seeks to establish a special status for Issa is flawed. how could this be not flawed? 1 + 1 + 1 is not equal to 3 according to the Christian church when it comes to God, but 1 + 1 + 1 is equal to 1. ! so not only the a semite man who liked like a Jordanians was turned into a european man with blue eyes and blonde hair, but he became a god. !!
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| | Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 10:46 am White-man-wana-be up in ur Dabo Asad My great grandfather tought your Awooweyaal every thing they know about live. Of course Good things only..... In return your Awooweyaal, worshiped the ground my grandparents walk on and they will be doing so, till the end of the world + next life too.......that is right in "heaven". As long as U Exist...Of course it is not against your will.. To make a long story short Your Awoowe yaal being half Satan half monkey couldn't abandon being Evil so they did what Satan's do the bestn the most..... Now stand up u don't have to kiss my feet LOL Again and Again Somalis were slave traders like it or not....Stop quoting me u Monkeys and Do not twist my words...... Oh! about Charles Darwin's Theory.... I believe we were all monkeys but some of us made it as a human .....Unfortunately the rest stayed Monkey cuz there was no way out for them due to thier exteremly next to nothing,low IQ......... lower than the monkey it self....blah blah! Monkey = Mooriyaan! peace u all
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| | Thursday, June 22, 2000 - 11:38 am she, >Asad My great grandfather tought your Awooweyaal every thing they know about live. Of course Good things only..... In return your Awooweyaal, worshiped the ground my grandparents walk on and they will be doing so, till the end of the world + next life too.......that is right in "heaven". As long as U Exist...Of course it is not against your will.. so you are now coming out of the closet and saying in straightforward----grandparents were slave-masters--------"we were slave traders"--"we still have slaves in somalia". !! >To make a long story short Your Awoowe yaal being half Satan half monkey couldn't abandon being Evil so they did what Satan's do the bestn the most..... Now stand up u don't have to kiss my feet LOL who are my awooweyal? >Again and Again Somalis were slave traders like it or not and the slaves "worshiped the ground" your "grandparents walk on and they will be doing so, till the end of the world + next life too", right? >Stop quoting me u Monkeys and Do not twist my words lol >Oh! about Charles Darwin's Theory.... I believe we were all monkeys but some of us made it as a human. Unfortunately the rest stayed Monkey cuz there was no way out for them due to thier exteremly next to nothing,low IQ......... lower than the monkey it self....blah blah! Monkey = Mooriyaan! i think satan convinced you that you came from monkies. if your IQ were high, you would not have believed satan's version about how human being came to being. i also think satan taught you his ways by being arrogant--thinking that you are better than other people. also satan told you that your great grandfather were better than other people----that is why you think your "great grandfather tought" my "Awooweyaal every thing they know about life". :-)
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 04:27 am mad mac. <It is not convincing because the Bible is not considered devine.>... well.. mr mad.. that is your opinion...but millions and millions of christians... consider it devine and sacred... the unfethered words of god... the wisdom of all wisdoms ...may be..you say this.. to legitimize your next suggestion.. that the Quran should be considered the same.. not the words of god... I can see where the conversation is headed.. but no proplem amigos.. been there than done that lol!... < Muslims consider the Qur'an to be devine - the word of God.>... Of course..but wait.. it is not what you think.. the Quran accepts challenge... a critical eye to prove that it is not the word of god... so can you prove it mad?... with your admission that you are smarter.. without no excuses.. and circulation around mirage ideas.. and phantom... mythic...denounciations...thousand years old... since the revelation.... Can you?.. <No intelligent Christian would ever claim that God wrote the Bible>... because Allah didn't.. and I agree with those intelligent people.. from the christain community.... <. You can cite all sorts of passages to your hearts content and use it to justify anything - and some people do.>... and why not.. when we can find an evidence from the BIBLE itself that speaks of the truth... It is more plausible than just.. mere beating about the bush.. like you do.. my smart friend.. Now if you read the bible respectfully.. you must have seen this.... <"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21> or.........> <"For God is not [the author] of confusion" 1 Corinthians 14:33.>... I can say... you are smart to consider yourself nonchristian.. althought you defend it.. despite your admission it has flaws... so what is up with that..?. You figured after reading that may be... that you ought to follow what you can prove and is good... also Allah is not the author of confusion ..in that case christians are reading what they don't understand basically right?... what is wrong with their mind... the superior people to muslims ..in anyway?..knock..knock.. who is there?.. People have accused our..prophet mohammed scw.. of fabricating lies... and then they asked him to bring to them another Quran.. just for the heck of it ..because they were..like you... pretending they know the Quran.. and already proven beyond doubt.. that it was wrong..and needed another one... <10.15 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a Qurán other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the Chastisement of a Great Day (to come).>.. so mr mad.. you have your example right there in front of your eyes.. If you were thinking that.. there is your response... < but I did grow up in a Christian Church and I did read the Bible (and laborious reading it is) so IN MY OPINION I believe I'm on solid ground here.>.. Don't contradict yourself.. you said in the same message..<FYI I am not a Christian.>.. Here..I teach you a word today.. RAGANIMO.. which means manhood...should appear in your words and you must show conviction in your beliefs...otherwise... you reveal your weaknesses and flaws.. and that you are not on a solid ground... LET US GET DOWN TO BUSSINESS sort of conversation is called for this ..matter.. if you are the smart guy you claim you are...and you can pull through.. this...I know it..mad...so show some heart.. will you..?... < I believe that the evolution of the Christian Church which seeks to establish a special status for Issa is flawed.>.. this is very respectable I say mad... and you deserve...a complement for it.. you have come a long way to say this.. if you are not.. hiding something under the hood... we will see... what comes next... <Now whether or not I'm the smartest man in the forums is probably subject to debate >.. we shall see.. how you can prove yourself.. to be what you are... you are not a dull person... but you are gaalka.. that is the imperfection you have... the greatest so far... <To finalize my input to this discussion (Cool, if you want further religious debate E-Mail me)>.. I say let us benefit others.. from your smartness .. you can make me your ticket to fame and in the forums... using me as a tool.. don't you think?.. I am this radical person.. so why not... take your shots at me.. and prove me.. unreasonable... and you will have the last laugh...take care... and it has been very interesting... to venture with you.. you are not that bad yourself.. May Allah guide you to his way of mercy... Amen..
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 07:22 am coolman = the notorious AHMAD, the Submitter.
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 08:00 am Jaale ArchiveReader, Sorry to disappoint ya me brotha.... My Ahmed is nothing like coolman Maya maya maya Waan kaa diidey.. No = big no no........Wa bilahi towfiiq till then......... Mudane Asad, I'll get back to ya peace...
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 08:03 am COOLMAN YOU ARE SUPERFICIALLY MAL-BRAIN-NUTRITIONALLY INBALANCED AND I SUGGEST YA GO TO HELLL
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 08:45 am Here we go again. I admit, you throw down the gauntlet I have to respond. Allrighty. The crux of your question appears to be "What do I believe?" I have been through this before, but I guess I'll go through it again. Let me start with I don't care if anyone else believes what I believe or not. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything. You are correct when you assumed I would postulate that the Qur'an is not devine. I believe it is devinely inspired, but not devine. The key difference is that the content was written by men inspired by God. But not simply God's words written by men. I believe that essentially the same is true for the Bible but that the Bible has been subject to more translation and revision over a longer time frame and that has caused it to be modified. Thus the Qur'an likely has a purer connection to the word of God - unless it was derived from the Bible and the Torah. This is possible but I don't think it's likely. So, you ask, where do we get our guidance from God? Well, we have to ask him. I do not believe that God laid down a set of laws for us to live by in black and white. Nor do I believe that God created man just to worship him. There's much more to it than that. We just don't know what the much more is. There's more to this universe than we realize and there's more to our own existence than we can comprehend. Thus I do embrace Christianitys simple message - Love God, love thy neighbor. But there's certainly more to life than that. What I reject in Islam is it's frequent vilification of those who don't embrace Islam. The same old trick used by so many other religions. Believe what I believe or your doomed. I don't by that. Never did-never will. So in a sense I believe all the major religions have something that is correct about them - well, I'm not sure about the Hindus, those beliefs seem bizarre. But hey, who knows? Anyway, while I reject Hinduism I have absorbed parts of Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Zen Bhudism into my beliefs. As a Muslim you can not but help but view religious debate as an intellectual jousting session. But it can't be that. We can not bring in some final arbitor and in the end beliefs require faith because they can not be proven. If they could be proven the debate would be over. The Qur'an has fewer failures of logic than most others, but that is simply proof it was the product of better writing. Khalil Gibran, the Lebanese poet and mystic, really does a good job of describing essentially what I believe. One line of his that I am particularly fond of is "Do not say I have found the path, say I have found a path."
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 09:59 am she, >Mudane Asad, I'll get back to ya peace... you are scaring me. :-)
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 10:12 am mad mac, >The Qur'an has fewer failures of logic than most others, but that is simply proof it was the product of better writing. when you say that the quran has fewer *failures*, i gather that is not something you believe like faith-----but what you discovered and found in the quran. if that is the case, could you be so kind and show us the failures of the quran?
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 10:22 am mad mac nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww i really hate you?ya iz a pagan?
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 12:18 pm Mad mac. Mad you said <Here we go again. I admit, you throw down the gauntlet I have to respond. >...I am just playing by the rules.. of conversational... engagements...by the integrity of any intellectual ...discussion that is void of lies...insults... baseless accusations...etc etc... so far it looks promising... Not too bad at all... <Let me start with I don't care if anyone else believes what I believe or not. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything. >.... This is how it works mad... I mean the conversion ...not that I am accusing you of it... You throw.. few lines... well designed to seep through... the unfenced hearts... and the uneducated brains... a semilogic... arguments.. that is not detectable.. to everybody... and without you noticing.. you doing the conversion... you have all these guys.. the unlearned bros and sisters.. defending your position... without realizing... they have just done a huge damage to their faith.... So I say the conversion doesn't have to be... <Mad I am here.. I am convinced... so take me to paradise>... or something like that... You see how it works now?.. In my opinion...you have a lot of converts in the forums.. so enjoy the pleasure...of your efforts.. and congrats... <You are correct when you assumed I would postulate that the Qur'an is not devine.>.... Was I expecting anything else from the gaalka... mad?.. It would be naive of me to just expect... that you would accept the Quran as it is... I have seen your opinions before and now... so It didn't require me to be a rocket scientist to figure that out... It is that obvious.. you are a disbeliever. <I believe it is devinely inspired, but not devine.>.... If you learnt anything from your christian folks.. it is the acute contradiction.... knocking your knees off with your own words... How do you explain <devinely inspired>... and..<but not devine.>....?... I am waiting for a better educated answer than these... you confuse me..now <I believe that essentially the same is true for the Bible but that the Bible has been subject to more translation and revision over a longer time frame and that has caused it to be modified.>... Not only was the bible modified... it was abused.. by each jewish tribe...and they inserted some despicable... words.. that can't be associated with Allah...No need to mention.. how the prophets of god was degraded ... from lusful beasts.. to fornicators.. and above all...the incestors.. that has the christians of today.. arguing about the legitimacy of the bible at all.. Allah says.... <5.13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor will you cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.>.. They used to cheat ..the common folk.. and hide the true meaning of the words of god... Allah says <<3.187 And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book(christians and jews) to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! >.... <Thus I do embrace Christianitys simple message - Love God, love thy neighbor. But there's certainly more to life than that.>.... every religion has that.. what is so unique about this one...?.. <As a Muslim you can not but help but view religious debate as an intellectual jousting session. But it can't be that>....this shows.. how far muslims excelled.. in confidence... and pride in their religion... welcoming useful debates... and good conversational sessions.. I wish your die hard christian folks.. would wake up to the reality.. and accept they are holding on to a mirage.. and start waking up... instead of blindly ..and faithfully holding on to nothingness...And when they are confronted.. with evidence.. start.. being all but good sports... thanks.. for the insight.. <The Qur'an has fewer failures of logic than most others, but that is simply proof it was the product of better writing.>... You know... if it wasn't our old gaalka.. trying to be smart again.. I would say something else... WHY NOT BRING YOUR EVIDENCE AND SHOW THE PEOPLE THE FEW FAILURES OF THE QURAN..? Can you do it..?.. that is the Question of the day... Allah the supreme says..<4.82 Do they not consider the Qurán (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.>..... So prove us wrong and bring your alleged.. few failures... I am not surprised you said that <few>...because you know... it is heedless.. to try..even if you spent... your lifetime bringing out wrongs.. from the Quran..
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| | Friday, June 23, 2000 - 12:36 pm Archivereader. I have to admit... you made me laugh... I am sure you misunderstood some of what I wrote... rest assured.. if I were ahmed.. I would have said so...now.. SHE.. is right... a big no is the answer... take care... my friend...
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 06:21 am Cool See, you and I see this the whole from different perspectives. From my perspective, all of the answers are not here. You ask me to prove you wrong: I can't do that. I can only tell you what I believe - not what I know. You don't know if the Qur'an is absolute just as I don't know that it isn't. Why are we here? Did God need us to worship him? Maybe, but I don't think that's it either. If that were true he would have made sure all of us know exactly why we're here - there would be no room for interpretation. If you would like an inconsistency here's one for you: God is Just and God is merciful. These two things are contradictions. If you are just then you can not really be merciful. Also, I don't think God wants to punish or hurt us. I don't think we are here on some sort of trial to see if we measure up. Frankly, I don't know why we're here and have pretty much stopped trying to figure it out. I do believe in God. I do pray to him for guidance. And I feel that he answers me. I guess that's enough for me. I don't need a rule book to tell me right from wrong - I know when I'm doing something wrong.
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 12:53 pm Mad. I like your conversation... it is not bad at all.. <See, you and I see this the whole from different perspectives.>... right... according to our understandings... <You ask me to prove you wrong: I can't do that. > Why not agree with me then.. if you can't prove me wrong..? ... Mad... you have to know... it is no biggie... to agree with someone... if he has the right stuff... I agree with you on many issues..yet you are not a muslim.. now that won't make me..nonmuslim... it is all in line... with the common sense.... <You don't know if the Qur'an is absolute just as I don't know that it isn't.>... How can you be so sure.. that I don't know.. the Quran..is not absolute just?... Did you sense.. a mistrust on my part.. about the Quran.. Or did I express any second guessing about Islam..like many somalis do in forums...?.. I would like to know.. how you came to that conclusion... if you don't mind.. please..! <Why are we here? Did God need us to worship him? >... I will be happy to answer these questions of yours... if you are so serious about them... ARE YOU READY...?... It might help clear the cloud.. of misunderstanding between us.. May be... we might see things uniformly in the end.. Who knows..?.. And you might also change your doubts of..<Maybe, but I don't think that's it either. >.. <If that were true he would have made sure all of us know exactly why we're here there would be no room for interpretation.>.... Looking at these questions you have...towards you and your creator.. indicate.. you spend so much time... thinking about your true presence in the world.. but Satan has danced in your head... to conclude.. the way you do.. and ignore.. your inner soul saerching.. I can elaborate that.. if you are interested.. too.. I am short on time..now.. may be later... lest I die.. before I say something to you... <If you would like an inconsistency here's one for you: God is Just and God is merciful.>... I will answer this in my next posting... for now you can chew on the others... But here is a forwarding.. Being just means.. giving rights to their owners.. and settling between a victim and a victimizer... an oppressed and an oppressor.. etc.. etc.. Why do we have the justice departments or institutions like that....?.. the same logic applies and better apply to ALLAH... he is their boss and creator.. and people are his servants.. they have to meet his expectations... <I don't think we are here on some sort of trial to see if we measure up.>... As I said I am running out of time.. so it will to wait my next posting... inshallah..this is seriously flawed thinking... satan has made you his prisoner.. mad.. and that is why you said..<Frankly, I don't know why we're here and have pretty much stopped trying to figure it out...>.. <I guess that's enough for me.>...No.. you can do a lot more than that... but just you don't wanna do it.. <I don't need a rule book to tell me right from wrong - I know when I'm doing something wrong. >.. We shall see how you can prove that.... And later.. with more answers.. if I can...
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 03:22 pm mad mad, >You ask me to prove you wrong: I can't do that. I can only tell you what I believe - not what I know. then, you do not know that the quran has *failures* as you claimed, you just believe it, right? in another word, when you say that the quran has fewer *failures*, you do not know this, but you just have faith that the quran has *failures*. >while I reject Hinduism I have absorbed parts of Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Zen Bhudism into my beliefs. I reject what mad mac believes (the accepting about different faith and discarding about different faiths believe). i also reject all other religions, but islam.
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 10:19 pm Cool How did I come to the conclusion that you can't know the Qur'an is the true word of God? That's easy. You weren't there when it was dictated. You believe it is the true word of God. You have faith that it is. That's not the same thing as knowing it. You ask me "Why not agree with me then?" Because I don't. My intellect (Not Satan. Simply dismissing other ideas and attributing them to Satan might be convenient, but it doesn't address the issues at hand) tells me how things came together. And God gave me that intellect. Why did he give it to me if he didn't want me to use it. Asad You wrote "Then you don't kow the Qur'an has failures." That's correct. I don't know it. I suspect it. The overall message tends to shift from being merciful to being vengeful - to being forgiving and to being harsh in judgement. The fundamental message I do not accept is that you have to live by the dictates of the Qur'an or you're doomed. This is plain, old fashion exthortion, and frankly I think God is above that. You also wrote "I reject what MAD MAC believes. I also reject all other religions but Islam." That's fine. I don't want you to believe what I believe. Follow your heart. Do what you think is right, not what MAC thinks is right. I wouldn't expect anything else from anyone. At the end of the day what you believe is between you and God - no one else.
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 11:21 pm mad mac, >You wrote "Then you don't know the Qur'an has failures." That's correct. I don't know it. I suspect it. i believe (not suspecting) that mad mac will be in the company of those who will *fail* to enter heaven if he dies in his state right now. > The overall message tends to shift from being merciful to being vengeful - to being forgiving and to being harsh in judgement. in another place, you mad mac said "we all need to pray for forgiveness"---then, the question to you was----why would you need and ask for forgiveness, i mean, what are you afraid of? why are you asking Allah for forgiveness if you think he is not *vengeful*----not *judgemental*? >The fundamental message I do not accept is that you have to live by the dictates of the Qur'an or you're doomed. This is plain, old fashion exthortion, and frankly I think God is above that. the fundamental message of the quran is that people have a choice to *accept* the whole quran---free will. if you do not accept whole quran, then i believe you need to pray for Allah's *forgiveness* before you die. do we need *forgiveness* or we do not, mad mac? if you do not believe there is such a thing called *dooms-day*---the judgement-day* in the hereafter, then you need not to worry about *forgiveness*. mad mac, >You wrote "Then you don't know the Qur'an has failures." That's correct. I don't know it. I suspect it. i believe (not suspecting) that you will be in the company of those who will *fail* to enter heaven if you die in your state. > The overall message tends to shift from being merciful to being vengeful - to being forgiving and to being harsh in judgement. in another place, you said "we all need to pray for forgiveness"---the, the question to you was----why would you need and ask for forgiveness, i mean, what are you afraid of? why are you asking Allah for forgiveness if you think he is not *vengeful*----not *judgemental*? >The fundamental message I do not accept is that you have to live by the dictates of the Qur'an or you're doomed. This is plain, old fashion exthortion, and frankly I think God is above that. the fundamental message of the quran is that you and i have a choice to *accept* the whole quran---free will to choose. do we need *forgiveness* or we do not, mad mac? if you do not believe there is such a thing called *dooms-day* in the hereafter, then you *need* not to worry about *forgiveness*. if there is no justice(judgement---accountability) in the sight of Allah, can a man like hitler need not be accountable for his deeds? When did justice and accountability become *extortion*, mad mad ?
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| | Saturday, June 24, 2000 - 11:38 pm mad mac, >You wrote "Then you don't know the Qur'an has failures." That's correct. I don't know it. I suspect it. i believe (not suspecting) that mad mac will be in the company of those who will *fail* to enter heaven if he dies in his state right now. > The overall message tends to shift from being merciful to being vengeful - to being forgiving and to being harsh in judgement. in another place, you mad mac said "we all need to pray for forgiveness"---then, the question to you was----why would you need and ask for forgiveness, i mean, what are you afraid of? why are you asking Allah for forgiveness if you think he is not *vengeful*----not *judgemental*? >The fundamental message I do not accept is that you have to live by the dictates of the Qur'an or you're doomed. This is plain, old fashion exthortion, and frankly I think God is above that. the fundamental message of the quran is that people have a choice to *accept* the whole quran---free will. if you do not accept the whole quran, then i believe you need to pray for Allah's *forgiveness* before you die. do we need *forgiveness* or we do not, mad mac? if there is no justice(judgement---accountability) in the sight of Allah, then man like hitler need not be accountable for his deeds, right? When did justice and accountability become *extortion*, mad mad ?
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 02:21 am Asad Again, your trying to argue this like a lawyer when at the end of the day it requires faith because it can not be proven. This isn't a logic game. As for the issue of forgiveness, I don't know if you need forgiveness for the purpose of entering some sort of after-life. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I personally think you need forgiveness as a balm to your own soul. When you perpetrate a wrong unto others you perpetrate a wrong unto yourself. You are thinking we have to ask God for forgiveness in order to get some reqard, or avoid some penalty. I believe that you have to seek peace and forgiveness both within and without. Genuine contrition goes beyond "What's in it for me." Will Hitler be accountable for his actions? I don't know - That's between God and Hitler and what made him the way he was. Of course you believe I will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. I'm gaal. You are trying to debate this as if it were a quest in logic, when, in fact, belief in suprantural requires faith and is subject to interpretation. Approaching this as if the Qur'an were written by a perfect legislature may work for you - but it will not convince me of anything.
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 04:27 am Mad... says.. <You don't know if the Qur'an is absolute just as I don't know that it isn't.>.... Yes I know the Quran is absloute just and truth... not by word of mouth.. but by reading it... and examinig it.. whether it is something.. I can believe in.. or not... The Quran doesn't tell people.. to have a blind faith in it.. but to use their intelligence... and accept it.. with an outcome...and the word intelligence and intelligent people.. is many in the Quran... Because.. as people.. we are equipped with the tool of reasoning and witts... to sort out fiction.. like your stories...from a fact.. that of the Quran... Al-Quran <10.37 This Qurán is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.>. You see.. this is how the Quran informs about itself.. a very confident book... that doesn't need addition.. substraction... and is not afraid of the scrutiny... of people.. who want to disprove it.. so why not again.. take your shots at it... and tell the world.. that the intelligent .. gaalka.. disproved the Quran.. and found mistakes...in it... <Why are we here? Did God need us to worship him? Maybe, but I don't think that's it either.>....we are here to fulfill.. the will of Allah .. through his guidance and introduction.. of himself.. by way of prophets and their messages... And We.. muslims are certain that we shall meet Allah... <Did God need us to worship him?>... No.. it is our need to worship him... <If that were true he would have made sure all of us know exactly why we're here - there would be no room for interpretation.>..... Who knows mad.. even IF Allah invited you to heaven right now.. and showed YOU all that is not revealing to you NOW.. you would still claim.. that you need more evidence... Disbelieve is by choice... mister Mad.... Allah said in the Quran.. <They would not beleive in it(the Quran), and already the example of ancients has gone forth. And even if we opened to them a gate from the heaven and they were to continue ascending thereto, They would surely say: "Our eyes have been intoxited. Nay, we are people BEWITCHED> 15:13-15 This is the kind of answer disbelievers give... no matter where and when they lived... as believers of the world think alike... disbelievers think alike too... it is like they told each other what to say... <I don't need a rule book to tell me right from wrong - I know when I'm doing something wrong. >.. You are one of the most needy person...mad... and if you weren't.. you wouldn't have repeated several times... doubts in your mind.. whether you are right or wrong.. just plain confusion.. seeps out of your mouth... it looks like.. you are not sure of anything... may god help you... out of your confusion... indeed.. < You weren't there when it was dictated. You believe it is the true word of God. You have faith that it is. That's not the same thing as knowing it.>... This.. I addressed at the beginning.. of the current posting... enjoy reading it... <My intellect (Not Satan. Simply dismissing other ideas and attributing them to Satan might be convenient, but it doesn't address the issues at hand) tells me how things came together.>... Your intellect should also answer your soul searching questions.. that you demontrsted.. in the forums... I again tell you... why not does your intelligence give you a satisfactory answer.. to the questions you have.. I can tell..you have plenty.. but... then.. that is why you said.. < Frankly, I don't know why we're here and have pretty much stopped trying to figure it out. >... <I personally think you need forgiveness as a balm to your own soul. When you perpetrate a wrong unto others you perpetrate a wrong unto yourself....> Immagine.. if the wrongs.. you do.. cause so many grievance to people..and you are more powerful than them... and don't care about their feelings.. ?.. Who then can give those people.. their lost rights to you... and their suffering...?.. Allah is the answer.. that is why he punishes.. perpetrators.. of ugly crimes.... and surely.. appointed a time where all people will come back.. to be rewrded their deeds.. and given their dues.. There is a victim.. and a victimzer... a killer and killed.. robbed and robber... all the crimes we see in the world.. most of them unpunished due to human stupidity and lack of morality.. will be avenged by ALLAH.. ALL VICTIMS... CAN HARDLY WAIT.. for their score...to be settled... take care... for now.
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 05:52 am asad mad mac and coolman get ya self a life....or enroll in the debate committe class..eh..y'all suck!
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 08:44 am And I quote - "The robbed is not blameless in being robbed. The murdered is not blameless in his own murder. Yeah the guilty is oftentimes the injurd of the victim." Think about that. "And he who would stone the adulterous wife, let him weigh the heart of her husband with scales and measurements." "The guilty can not commit crime without the hidden will of you all." I would argue that the answers to the meaning of life aren't here to be found, at least not in a book. Again you ask me to take my shot at it, try and disprove it. It's not a scholarlarly exercise to prove or disprove. It can neither be proven nor disproven. And I certainly am not trying to do either. You believe the Qur'an is the word of God. That's great. I'm not trying to convince you to believe anything else. I've told you what I believe, I've told you that I don't pretend to have all the answers and I've told you I don't believe you have them either. But you believe you do. Allrighty. There's nothing to really debate here unless you have some new and intriguing insight on the subject. This is the same discussion as before and it can't be settled unless God himself came down to settle it.
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 10:50 am mad mac, >As for the issue of forgiveness, I don't know if you need forgiveness for the purpose of entering some sort of after-life. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. in another place, you said "I'm not sure what happens when we die.", but "I am convinced it's not something to be feared.".-----then, why ask for forgiveness? >Will Hitler be accountable for his actions? I don't know in another place, you said you believe in accountability and now you are saying you do not know if there will be accountable!. you also said "Only Allah really knows how the whole judgement thing works"----then, if there is a *judgement*, what is this saying of yours that Allah can not be both the *merciful* and the *judge* at the same time? are you saying that Allah will not separate the good from the bad?. remember, you said "I don't know what happened to him (hitler when he died), but if I were a betting man - and I am - I would bet it's not good.". if you think hitler is *NOT* in a good place, who put him there and who is *judging him?
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 10:59 am anonymous, >asad---------get ya self a life. what kind of life do you have--is your life better than.....? >...or enroll in the debate committe class. have you enrolled a deabate committe class? if you have, can you show us what they taught you? >eh..y'all suck! suck what?
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 11:23 am asad, Mad mac is a walking contradiction..i tell you this guy is extremely contrasted in every detailed conceivable!He speaks like a pegan and conteplates like a religeous person.I tell you, its certain that hes arguementative,but not certain if hes a compulsive-oblivious-arguemntative.If hes conscious when he argues,or suffering from a temporary alsymers!Hes not consistant,hes definitly bright,cuz so far hes managed to go without anybody realising how hes talented in A CARNIVING-CONTRASTED-HYPOCRITIC-SELF-DELLUSSIONED HUMANBEING HE IS!! Not unless....the entrance of your's truelly ofcourse..arrival!so cheers to Mad mac's adventures.of MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!
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| | Sunday, June 25, 2000 - 12:06 pm DAMNamFINE, mad mad may or may not be a hypocrite, but for sure, he is a confused fellow with no convictions. he is more like an agnostic person, but one who is searching. however, he wants to debate and discuss things, but says he does not want to debate the same things he says.!! we are not here to force anyone and he is not here to force anyone. we are just discussing things. in the end, all he has to say about his agnostic belief (doubts) is this: "Maybe, maybe not" or "I do not know"---while at the same time claiming that the quran has *failures*!!!!
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| | Monday, June 26, 2000 - 04:14 am Asad Exactly. I'm more like an agnostic person. Well phrased Abowe!!! Of course I'm still searching - learning is a life-long thing. You never stop learning. We all should still be searching. You should never assume you have all the answers. You will recall I did not really claim the Qur'an has failures - you are taking individual sentances out of context - I said that I believe the Qur'an is not the exact word of God. Big difference. You know scientists debate things like "Is there life on Mars" all of the time without actually knowing the answer. Because you don't know the answer does not exclude you from the debate. I already told you why you should ask for forgiveness. You weren't listening - or reading. Let's say you stole something from someone. A year later you're thinking about it and you realize you really shouldn't have done that. You feel bad about it. No one knows you did it. But you decide to go back and apologive and maybe give the agreieved party something back of equal value. Why? He didn't know you took it. No one knew. The reason is because it's the right thing to do - not because you're going to get a benefit. As for judgement - as I said, I don't know what happens when we die. On the subject of judgement or anything else only God knows the answer. I don't know how Hitler was judged or if he was judged. What I said was that I would bet it wasn't good. His crimes were extreme. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he was part of God's grand plan. Or maybe there is no grand plan. Don't you see my point? You're saying you have the answers, I'm saying no one does but you're entitled to your beliefs. On the subject of fearing death: Dying is as natural as living. You can not have life without death. You can not have good without bad. You can not have right without wrong. You can not have happiness without sadness. A certain balance and symetry exists in the world. You say I'm confused and I would submit to you I'm not confused, I just recognize that there are some things I don't know. On the subject of religion I would say you are delusional, but that doesn't mean you aren't right. It means we look at the same thing differently. I don't know why that concept is so difficult to accept.
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| | Monday, June 26, 2000 - 06:08 am mad mac, >Exactly. I'm more like an agnostic person. Well phrased Abowe!!! Of course I'm still searching - learning is a life-long thing. and someone who calls himself a muslim is a believer (not a doubter or agnostic). a muslim has convictions; he is not confused about things; his believe to things is firm; he is not anymore searching; he has already found his bath---unlike an agnostic--a doubter like you--which is confusing. >You never stop learning. We all should still be searching. You should never assume you have all the answers. the more a muslim learns about his faith, the more his convictions about his faith grows. > You will recall I did not really claim the Qur'an has failures - you are taking individual sentances out of context - I said that I believe the Qur'an is not the exact word of God. Big difference. you said "The Qur'an has fewer failures of logic than most others, but that is simply proof it was the product of better writing.",---however, it is not the quran that failures, mad mac; it is your believe or your logic about the quran---which is clouded with doubts---that has failures. now lets look about your agnostic logic and the believe about an accountablity and forgiveness: >Let's say you stole something from someone. A year later you're thinking about it and you realize you really shouldn't have done that. You feel bad about it. No one knows you did it. Allah knows what you did and it is a sin you did against the person you stole from something and the sin is judged by Allah. you said yourself in another place "And I guess whether Allah wants to forgive me or not is up to him. But I suspect we all need to pray for forgiveness"----"anyone who tells you they never did something they shouldn't have is a liar and can add that to his list of *sins*". who is judging the SIN---that is the questioin? you see, mad mac, how your logic or your agnostic belief is failing you?
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| | Monday, June 26, 2000 - 06:58 am mad mac ok answer this question!remember i only need YES ...OR NO..!..OK THE POLYGRAPH TEST BEGINS....... #1..ARE YOU CHRISTIAN? #2..ARE YOU SOMALI #3..ARE YOU COMPULSIVE ARUGEUMANTATIVE? #4..ARE YOU NATIVE AMERICAN? REMMEBER THE POLLYGRAPH DOES NOT LIE! YES OR NO!
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| | Monday, June 26, 2000 - 07:46 am INYOOW INYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW..MAC SONKOR CALEEN SHAAH!!!
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| | Monday, June 26, 2000 - 07:48 am given...mad's take on thE.. QURAN...all the time.. and the way he defends the trinity... I say... he is a devout christian.. He might as well attend... sunday ceremonies..in his area... It..is hard to trust.. Mad..given the conflicting..expressions he gave..about himself.. a man... with multiple faces..and opposing answers.. He knows.. he can do nothing about...the evident superiority..of the islamic.. faith..but chose to take cheap shots at it...like nobody knows... whether the Quan is this..or that... well!.. We do..
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2000 - 05:39 am can the real slim shaddy please stand uppppppp!!
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| | Wednesday, July 26, 2000 - 11:12 pm Damn 1 - No 2 - No 3 - Yes 4 - Partly Hope that was easy enough to follow. Cool I never defended the trinity. I defended a simple teaching of Christ. You are obssessed with the trinity because the Qur'an talks about it and links it directly with Christianity. Give it a rest. I don't give a •••• about the trinity. I do not consider Islam to be superior. In many ways it is laudable. However, it also encourages Muslims to think themselves superior to gaal and to dissassociate themselves with gaal. I regard that as pathetic. Fortunaltely, most Somalis aren't very dogmatic in their beliefs, hence I have a lot of Somali friends. But, like presbyterian Scotts, they can be fanatics when they want to be.
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| | Thursday, July 27, 2000 - 09:59 am I thought he was already standing! ------> You!!! and trust me. This isn't an complement!
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| | Friday, July 28, 2000 - 01:45 pm BA ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what does this mean. I was not able to interpret either insult or complement or anything else from this.
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| | Monday, October 02, 2000 - 08:54 am This sorry Ho cant spell, tryin to tell me to go back home. Eat •••• you mother fucker.
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| | Monday, October 02, 2000 - 07:49 pm so call mad mac you describe your self as white american, and it seem you know every part of somalia and its history . one other thing it seem you have Difficult spelling some words like nation (you said notion) so how can a mo_f*cker like tell me to go back to somalia, u nothing, you're jerk who is just learning how the write english, saying things that you may not understand. If you want to make up your Identity at least learn how to spell so we can believe you first. f*ck you mad mac and hope you burn in hell i mean hell because that's where you are heading. How do i know, i can tell the way you write peace bastard
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| | Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 10:53 pm Jennifer Is this a Somali name. I am guilty of the occasional typo. Esspecially when I use my rommates computer, which has a German keyboard. Also, I type fairly fast but I do make goofy mistakes. That is compounded with the fact that I'm dislexic (slightly). Sometimes I read my own material and can't believe I made such a stupid gramatical error. When I write for work, I am careful to proof read and have a colleague give it the once over. Anyway, yeah, I'm a White American - a lousy Kufaar. Terrible I know. They'll let anybody log on to Somalinet. As for the "f*ck you, MAD MAC" I'll take a rain check, I have a girl friend right now. Thanks for the offer though. Whether or not I go to hell, well, recommend you go to the Islam page to get my views on that one. Nabad Gelyo Abai. Fun talking to you.
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| | Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 05:48 pm U should know that.Any way you call your self a kufaar and believe me you are one. If you wore white i don't think u could know how to spell kufaar which you did, i gues your girlfriend is somalian, don't know why she stayed with loser like, no Offence . one other think i don't need to get f*cked a kufaar like you, but thanks for offering. No hard feeling MAD MAC O.K peace
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