New study shows 41% Americans born out-of wedlock!

[Siciid85]

That is 41% of those surveyed said their kids were born out of wed lock. lets a take moment to reflect on that. We should trully be encouraged to be true Muslims and Thank Allah for blessing us with this beautiful deen.

The figures are even alarming among African Americans. Of those surveyed 77% of African American kids were born out of wedlock.

[udun]

It is mostly minorities and whites who live in inner cities. Majority of white Americans who live in rural areas and small to midsize towns still maintain their culture which is marrying their high school sweet hearts. Nearly majority of whites that I come across were born into marriages and many of them get married after graduating from college.

[Siciid85]

Even stranger thing is that they often get 'married' after they have 1 or 2 kids.

These figures just took off; about 25% jump in the last 5 years according to CNN reports. Perhaps you attended school and college back in the days. This is new.

[James Dahl]

I don't think this has so much to do with immorality but rather the institution of marriage itself is seen as less valuable.

My generation in North America growing up, saw their parents divorce, often remarry then divorce again. I married my wife, but I can see why people would see marriage as something of a useless and unnecessary tradition.

All the people blaming gays for devaluing marriage are looking in the wrong place. It was the baby boomer generation and their 3-5 marriages and divorces that devalued marriage. What worth is an institution where breaking it is no more complicated than cancelling a gym membership?

[Siciid85]

I think you might be right. That was the underlying theme of the report I saw on NBC nightly news last night. Marriage is being viewed as less and less important. Most people consider a 'family' as single mother and her kids.

[James Dahl]

I think you might be right. That was the underlying theme of the report I saw on NBC nightly news last night. Marriage is being viewed as less and less important. Most people consider a 'family' as single mother and her kids.

They're not all single mothers, I know couples that have been together for 20 years and have 4 kids together, a house together, etc. You wouldn't know they weren't married if you met them but they aren't, they just don't think marriage means anything anymore.

[SultanOrder]

I don't think this has so much to do with immorality but rather the institution of marriage itself is seen as less valuable.

My generation in North America growing up, saw their parents divorce, often remarry then divorce again. I married my wife, but I can see why people would see marriage as something of a useless and unnecessary tradition.

All the people blaming gays for devaluing marriage are looking in the wrong place. It was the baby boomer generation and their 3-5 marriages and divorces that devalued marriage. What worth is an institution where breaking it is no more complicated than cancelling a gym membership?

There are definetly consequences that will show on the generation that has subjected to that. As muslims we believe that, when a society becomes rife with sins, then there are divine consequences that will be paid. I hope to Allah that he saves us from such tribulations, or he makes it easier on us to bear. Amin

[James Dahl]

Having children out of wedlock isn't technically a sin, the sex is.

Ironically, if you take the Qu'ran literally, if a woman goes to the fertility clinic and has herself impregnated, regardless of the fact that she isn't married there was no fornication involved, and while the kid would be a bastard, all children are born free from sin.

I'm sure some cleric is working on "discovering" a hadith that would prevent this from occurring though.

The thing is though, the Qu'ran does not define what marriage is exactly, and what counts as marriage. The Nikah 'urfi marriage is considered to be marriage by most Islamic scholars, and as far as the west is concerned, their version of the Nikah 'urfi is "Common Law Marriage" that occurs as soon as you move in together with somebody and live together for a few years. If you broadened the term "married" to include everyone "in a relationship" (as they usually put it) the 40% would probably drop to about 5%.

If a man has committed himself to a partner and they buy a house together and have a bunch of children, are they unmarried? I mean if you read the actual text of what the Qu'ran is referring to when discussing Zina, references to prostitutes and bawdy houses certainly implies that Zina refers to casual sex.

[SultanOrder]

Having children out of wedlock isn't technically a sin, the sex is.

Ironically, if you take the Qu'ran literally, if a woman goes to the fertility clinic and has herself impregnated, regardless of the fact that she isn't married there was no fornication involved, and while the kid would be a bastard, all children are born free from sin.

I'm sure some cleric is working on "discovering" a hadith that would prevent this from occurring though.

The thing is though, the Qu'ran does not define what marriage is exactly, and what counts as marriage. The Nikah 'urfi marriage is considered to be marriage by most Islamic scholars, and as far as the west is concerned, their version of the Nikah 'urfi is "Common Law Marriage" that occurs as soon as you move in together with somebody and live together for a few years. If you broadened the term "married" to include everyone "in a relationship" (as they usually put it) the 40% would probably drop to about 5%.

If a man has committed himself to a partner and they buy a house together and have a bunch of children, are they unmarried? I mean if you read the actual text of what the Qu'ran is referring to when discussing Zina, references to prostitutes and bawdy houses certainly implies that Zina refers to casual sex.

1 Islam has certain legal principles that can be applied to new innovations by learned scholars, this is the flexibility Islam has confronted with every new Generations. As your probably aware of there are only very few Islamic ruilings set down by the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet. But it has always been understood by the great majority of Islamic Scholars in Jurisprudence that our religion has legal principled applied by careful deliberation, and that it is only an attempt at fulfilling the divine will by limited human beings.

It seems to me that you have a natural bia's against "clerics", most likely due to the aversion in most formerly 'christian populations' to the Catholic Church, which is understandable. But in Islam if you look at the history you will see that traditionally we've never had the same kind of experience with our estabilished religious institutions, and by that token you should look at us with clear or unbiased eyes.

As for the issue of Marriage it is well known to the muslims what constitutes as marriage, so if the Qur'an does not specifically mention it, you have to understand that it came to an established cultural society and only seeks to reform its negative understandings and aspects. At the same time marriage is very clear in Islam, and how to get married is very clear. Also, when non muslims convert to Islam, Islam honors their previous marriage and does not nullify it, as long as it is inline with basic traditional aspects.

James, brother if you try to interpret the qur'an without Islam as the majority of muslims understand it you will always come short.

James can you explain to me your reasoning for rejecting hadith science?

[James Dahl]

Experts are just men. All men are subject to the same weaknesses that lead to people to lie or to distort the truth. Perhaps they had good reason to do so, they saw immoral or harmful behavior and sought to invoke the name of the Prophet to make them stop, but I am convinced most are made up. The people they list in their chain of narration are long dead, and are unable to verify the facts for us.

As for marriage, it varies from culture to culture and nation to nation. Ultimately marriage is a contract between two people to commit themselves to each other, to the exclusion of all others. Everything else is largely semantics and isn't consistent with other marriage customs.

For instance a Muslim from the Phillipines has a very different ceremony than one from Iraq or the Gulf or Morocco.

[SultanOrder]

Experts are just men. All men are subject to the same weaknesses that lead to people to lie or to distort the truth. Perhaps they had good reason to do so, they saw immoral or harmful behavior and sought to invoke the name of the Prophet to make them stop, but I am convinced most are made up. The people they list in their chain of narration are long dead, and are unable to verify the facts for us.

Our prophet said the inheritors of the Prophets are the scholars. I think you have been introduced to a very negative aspect of Islam. Should I hook you up with muslims in Vancouver BC that are good learned people. A lot of people from Vancouver come to seattle.