Real Talk: Somalia-Two Periods

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sadeboi
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Re: Real Talk: Somalia-Two Periods

Post by sadeboi »

Militarily, the Somali government is supposed to strengthen first of all the security apparatus of the nation for the benefit of the nation and people, second it must be effective in times of war.

:up: Military aspect: achievements

On this front, the Somali government was doing good job, as the military apparatus of the state was established and further developed till the army itself grabbed power from the civilian government. Without the pre-independence and post-independence development of the military capabilities of the Somali nation, it would be impossible for the army to stage a coups d etat



Also, on this front, the first civilian government achieved to get a grant from the Soviet Union of $32 million, to modernize the Somali army and expand it to 14.000 personnal. This grant was later increased to $55 million. Besides this the Soviet Union also provided Somalia during the 60s with a substantial number of T-34 tanks, armored personnel carriers, MiG-15 and MiG-17 aircraft, small arms, and ammunition. Approximately 300 Soviet military advisers deployed to Somalia to train the army, and about 500 Somali pilots, officers, and technicians received training in the Soviet Union. (see Library of Congress, country study: Somalia)

This was incredible achievement considering the fact that the first goverment wasn't even socialist in character.

Also it succesfully repelled an Ethiopian aggression in the war of 1964.
The only credible achievement you mentioned of Aden Cade was the fact that Somalia defended itself against Ethiopia in 1964 with the help of USSR. Is this a lie? Because the other military achievements are from your own head and twisting of words from you sources. YOU WROTE:
Also, on this front, the first civilian government achieved to get a grant from the Soviet Union of $32 million, to modernize the Somali army and expand it to 14.000 personnal.
When in your source [country studies] its states
Also, on this front, the first civilian government achieved to get a grant from the Soviet Union of $32 million, to modernize the Somali army and expand it to 14.000 personnal.
Where in this does it say that Aden Cade ACHIEVED THE GOAL TO EXPAND THE ARMY TO 1400 PERSONAL? In YOUR SOURCE it further mentions that the only amount the Russians trained since their aide package was:
By the time Siad Barre terminated the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with Moscow and expelled all Soviet advisers in 1977, about 2,400 Somali military personnel had undergone training in the Soviet Union and another 150 in Eastern Europe.
Nothing in the source speaks of the achievements you pulled from thin air.
sadeboi
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Re: Real Talk: Somalia-Two Periods

Post by sadeboi »

To summon it up, YOU STATED THAT IN YOUR OPINION ADEN CADE WAS THE BEST PRESIDENT because his social/economic/military achievements outshine the others. HOWEVER, when it comes to the Economic achivement of Aden Cadde you DID NOT mention any achievements, you only provided a source where a five-year plan was made by him and his adminstration BUT the implementation of it was 25%. When it came to the military achivements of Aden Cadde and his administration, the only achievement-- not including the ones you made up in your head in which you misused words from your source-- was that he fended off the Ethiopian war then with the help of the Russians. SERIOUSLY somalinet members are these two components what would qualify Aden Cadde to be "THE PRESIDENT OF SOMALIA IN TERMS OF ACHIEVEMENTS" as Somaliweyn painted it?
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Re: Real Talk: Somalia-Two Periods

Post by Somaliweyn »

Sadeboi,

Lets not delude ourselves, and for once put this mindset of scoring points aside in order to look at the case as truthfull and sincere as possible.

The points you raised are:

Economy:
So do you disagree that Aden Cadde (aun) had no economic achivements in his record, just promise on a paper which was not carried out?

Re-read on page 2 the whole post, and this time without the above described mindset of ''scoring points''.

I have presented an objective account of the economic situation during 1960-1969, in which I have both acknowledged the achievements (roads, schools, farms, hospitals, ports that were built/expanded) and the failures (corruption, nepotism and mismanagment).

As you can see this is exactly the difference between you and me, I am objective and have nothing to hide, hence why I expose both the failures and achievements of the civilian government.

You on the other hand, only consider the military rule as ''heavenly period'', only achievements, you never acknowledge the gross failures that outweight every achievement.

Here is another SOURCE, besides the countless ones on page 2, which testifies of my objectiveness in presenting the bad and the good about the civilian government.
To be sure, much of the foreign aid did go into infrastructural investment and other worthy projects. In this period, the state constructed roads, factories to produce milk, textiles, tinned meat and fish. Also many schools, a national theatre, and a national airline. But most Somalis -and the aid officials who were supposedly overseeing these investments - felt frustrated.
An aura of corruption - what the Somalis call musuq maasuq - pervaded all of Somali economic life. This subverted the ability of the state to lead Somali out of the economic doldrums.
Source: Somalia and the World Economy
Author(s): David D. Laitin and Said S. Samatar

That is the picture of the economy during the civilian government.

They built roads, factories for milk, textiles, tinned meat and fish, schools, national theatre, farms, ports etc. Ofcourse there was also corruption/nepotism, which can not be denied. But this is nothing near the mass scale corruption during Barre's period.




Your other point was:
I ask you again, what source do you have to explain how the 2-year plan by Abdirishid helped the revolutionary government economic boast in its first few years of power?
Again, go to page 6 and see my source.

You can read in that page the following piece:
---
Abdi Samatar says in Structural Adjustment as Development Strategy? Bananas, Boom, and Poverty in Somalia (1993)


The National Banana Board was organized to 'manage' the industry. Whatever its supposed function was, this board had little positive impact on the plantation economy. While banana output increased from 145.500 tons in 1970 to 168.300 tons in 1973, with the area under cultivation growing from 6.500 cultivated hectares to 9.500 hectares, such growth was the result of investments and improvements made before the regime came to power (Gaas 1990)
----
We all know that the Somali economy was built on pastoral production/export and banana production/export and in lesser manner industrial production.

As you can read in the above piece, the fact that banana production and exports expanded from 1969-1973 was because of the investments made by the previous government.
Also, the reason why Siad Barre is believed to have built many factores is again as a consequence of the investments the previous government made.

Where is my prove for this?

Here:

This is what David D. Laitin and Said S. Samatar say in Somalia and the World Economy about the military goverment:

During this period the government helped to reorganise the milk factory to raise its production, and founded a tomato canning factory, a cigarette and match factory, a packaging plant making carboard boxes and polythene bags, a wheat flour and pasta factory, several grain mills, and a petroleum refinery. In addition, the state put the meat processing plant in Kismaayu into operation, as well as a fish processing factory in Laas-Qoray. It also began to expand sugar operations in Jowhar and build a new facility in Afgooye. To be sure, some of these plants, including a textile factory in Bal'ad, were under construction before the advent of socialism. What the socialist government did was to overcome the inertia holding these plants back from production.

As you can see the military government did not built those factories, since the previous civilian government already started building them, in which they completed some and others were delayed.

The military junta only took over these investments and made sure they were completed and then shamelessly took all credit for it. The same with the expansion in banana exports and production in which the military junta took credit falsely!


Military:
Where in this does it say that Aden Cade ACHIEVED THE GOAL TO EXPAND THE ARMY TO 1400 PERSONAL?
Thats what u said, now can you read properly or is your mindset of ''scoring points''blinding you?
The growth of Soviet influence in Somalia dated from 1962, when Moscow agreed to provide loans to finance the training and equipping of the armed forces. By the late 1960s, about 300 Soviet military personnel were serving as advisers to the Somali forces, whose inventories had been stocked almost entirely with equipment of East European manufacture (see Foreign Military Assistance , ch. 5). During the same period, about 500 Somalis received military training in the Soviet Union.
see: Country Study

Also, the SNA army was increased from 4.000 to 20.000, read here
In the decade of the 1960s, Somalia received US$90 per capita in foreign economic assistance, about twice the average for sub-Saharan Africa. This helped to pay for increasing numbers of bureaucrats and parliamentarians, who lived ostentatious and opulent lives in Mogadishu, and for a five fold increase in the size of the Somali army.
See Somalia and the World Economy by David D. Laitin and Said S. Samatar
Now, I have presented many sources to back up my objective analysis of the period of civilian rule.

What else do you got except distorting my words to score points?

Do you got any sources for your claims?

Tell us, what made the military rule great? Present your case with sources, like I have done. Be a man, instead of wasting time with distortions and silly dances in circles.
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luis1
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Re: Real Talk: Somalia-Two Periods

Post by luis1 »

A Siad Barre biography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre

[quote]Clan based militias, particularly the Hawiye clan, started a campaign of immense proportions of killings, rape and torture in the northern and middle regions of Somalia. In the late 1980s, rival factional groups began to make substantial territorial gains, especially in the northern Somaliland region. These rebels received aid from Ethiopia in hopes of overthrowing the Somali government.[/quote]
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