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Itrah wrote:

Bilis wrote:Anyway, why do you think Benadiri have high frequencies of haplogroup T? They are the only Somali group identified by name (rather than indirectly by location) as bearers of the clade.

Barawa has a Dir community nearby, lol.

They are called Biyomaal I think

Bilis wrote:

zumaale wrote: Just because Rooble has been 'trailing' you does not mean you should resort to making intellectually unsound statements in regard to the Trombetta study. You cannot make conclusions based on insufficient evidence bro nor can you deny the accumulating evidence that links Dirs with haplogroup T or their historical and current habitation of North West Somalia.

To be frank, your arguments in regard to the prevalence of haplogroup T in NW Somalia and among Dirs have been unsubstantiated conjecture.

What is this evidence you speak of? As far as I'm aware, not one study explicitly says that haplogroup T is mainly found among either Dir or Ogaden. They instead only indicate high frequencies in specific areas in the Somali territories (e.g. Dire Dawa). We then draw inferences from that based on whatever clans are numerically dominant in those areas.

Both you and I are hypothesizing that T is found at high frequencies among Somalis in Djibouti and Ethiopia, respectively, based on the lower E1b1b frequencies in those areas in Trombetta. However, neither of us knows this for ceindt indicated.

Also, remember that haplogroup T is apparently found at notable frequencies among Benadiri. So it's not just an Ogaden, Djibouti and Woqooyi thing; it is more complicated than that.

I never made matters out to be that simple and I have often been quick to argue that more testing needs to be done on a subclan level.

However, liaise with all the Snetters that are on 23andme and ask them how the respective haplogroups of their relatives. You will observe that Dir as a whole are predominately T. Ogadens are overwhelmingly haplogroup E1b1b, ask the D-block crew who are on their if you do not believe me.

The Dire Dawa study can be identified with the Dir simply because there are no native non Dir clans that reside in that zone. The Gode zone is mixed as I highlighted to you and accurate clan assumptions cannot be made.

Itrah I know the sample ain't that large bro, you know I am a perfectionist when it comes to obtaining representative samples hence why no results so far have been entirely satisfactory and conclusive.

Itrah wrote: Barawa has a Dir community nearby, lol.

They are called Biyomaal I think.. Could be them.

Or the Tuuni could be T. Who knows..

The study identifies the Benadiri directly by name. I believe it was this one.

Bilis wrote:

Itrah wrote: Barawa has a Dir community nearby, lol.

They are called Biyomaal I think.. Could be them.

Or the Tuuni could be T. Who knows..

The study identifies the Benadiri directly by name. I believe it was this one.

Benadiris are a cocktail of different clans that do not claim a common ancestor. The are a mixed 'ethnic' group of diverse origins. R lineages have been found to exist among them as Itrah can confirm.

zumaale wrote:Benadiris are a cocktail of different clans that do not claim a common ancestor. The are a mixed 'ethnic' group of diverse origins. R lineages have been found to exist among them as Itrah can confirm.

The study alludes to "an Arab population from Somalia", not a cocktail of different clans.

zumaale wrote:I never made matters out to be that simple and I have often been quick to argue that more testing needs to be done on a subclan level.

However, liaise with all the Snetters that are on 23andme and ask them how the respective haplogroups of their relatives. You will observe that Dir as a whole are predominately T. Ogadens are overwhelmingly haplogroup E1b1b, ask the D-block crew who are on their if you do not believe me.

The Dire Dawa study can be identified with the Dir simply because there are no native non Dir clans that reside in that zone. The Gode zone is mixed as I highlighted to you and accurate clan assumptions cannot be made.

Itrah I know the sample ain't that large bro, you know I am a perfectionist when it comes to obtaining representative samples hence why no results so far have been entirely satisfactory and conclusive.

There aren't many Somalis on 23andme either. The actual provenance of the few individuals there is also even less easy to confirm.

Haplogroups aside, what is certain is that the Somali ancestral makeup is not as that firm and similar BGA testing commercial companies would have us believe. Folks that think it is do not understand the difference between the genealogical tree and the genetic tree.

There's a part Benadiri part Hawiye guy on 23andMe, he has Y-DNA R1a1a (from the Benadiri side) and claims his Benadiri side comes from Uzbekistan.

Bilis wrote:

zumaale wrote:Benadiris are a cocktail of different clans that do not claim a common ancestor. The are a mixed 'ethnic' group of diverse origins. R lineages have been found to exist among them as Itrah can confirm.

The study alludes to "an Arab population from Somalia", not a cocktail of different clans.

zumaale wrote:I never made matters out to be that simple and I have often been quick to argue that more testing needs to be done on a subclan level.

However, liaise with all the Snetters that are on 23andme and ask them how the respective haplogroups of their relatives. You will observe that Dir as a whole are predominately T. Ogadens are overwhelmingly haplogroup E1b1b, ask the D-block crew who are on their if you do not believe me.

The Dire Dawa study can be identified with the Dir simply because there are no native non Dir clans that reside in that zone. The Gode zone is mixed as I highlighted to you and accurate clan assumptions cannot be made.

Itrah I know the sample ain't that large bro, you know I am a perfectionist when it comes to obtaining representative samples hence why no results so far have been entirely satisfactory and conclusive.

There aren't many Somalis on 23andme either. The actual provenance of the few individuals there is also even less easy to confirm.

Haplogroups aside, what is certain is that the Somali ancestral makeup is not as that firm and similar BGA testing commercial companies would have us believe. Folks that think it is do not understand the difference between the genealogical tree and the genetic tree.

There is a difference between Benadiris such as the Shanshi, associated groups and the Arab Somalis that are mostly of Yemeni origin.

Haplogroup T is found in the Arabian peninsula so what's the big deal.

In this thread we were only discussing Fardheer Somalis so I don't see how relevant it is to bring Arabs into this.

By 23andme relatives I am referring to how useful it is to obtain info on Somali haplogroups, not how reliable STR's are in determining the TMCRA of two individuals.

I read or heard somewhere Benadir is a condensed word from "Bayt al Dir", place/house of Dir.

Rageedi and dumarkeedi, ladies and gentlemen,

Don't mind the blatantly lying, material editing, low IQ hairballs, Itrah and Bilis. As humorous as it is to see, like a squirrel running off with a piece of styrofoam thinking he got a nut - thank God, what they just tried to pull there can't work within an educated population, let alone the scientific community, or serious thought circles.

Now to important reminders - let us continue splitting the continent called "Africa". No more African Union. Welcome the Sharaf Union. No more confusion and suffering. No more Africa. Don't ever say you're African.

Thank you to everyone that submitted a name and to the contest winner, Emad.

Read more about the Hamitic race here:

http://hamiticunion.proboards.com/board/1/general-board

Recommended readings:

http://hamiticunion.proboards.com/threa ... ic-library

zumaale wrote:By 23andme relatives I am referring to how useful it is to obtain info on Somali haplogroups, not how reliable STR's are in determining the TMCRA of two individuals.

Ok sxb, but I didn't say anything about how reliable STRs are in determining the most recent common ancestor (TMCRA).

I said that the BGA testing/admixture testing which 23andme specializes in -- tests which include SNP genotyping and whole genome sequencing, though the firm so far only offers the former -- is unreliable. Only when these commercial companies begin using actual ancient DNA as reference samples will their analyses begin to approach something resembling biological reality.

zumaale wrote:There is a difference between Benadiris such as the Shanshi, associated groups and the Arab Somalis that are mostly of Yemeni origin.

Haplogroup T is found in the Arabian peninsula so what's the big deal.

In this thread we were only discussing Fardheer Somalis so I don't see how relevant it is to bring Arabs into this.

It is relevant and significant because your argument was that haplogroup T among Fardheer Somalis is mainly restricted to the Dir.

I just linked you to the raw STR values for Arab Somalis, and they have a higher frequency of haplogroup E1b1b than what you claim for the Dir. Around 33% were E1b1b carriers, and many were also haplogroup T carriers. Does this make sense to you?

Plug in the numbers for each Arab Somali individual/row into this Y-DNA haplotype predictor (the numbers after each "DYS" in the paper correspond with the boxes in the haplotype predictor). You'll see that the first 11 of the 33 tested individuals are all indeed haplogroup E1b1b carriers, while several others belong to haplogroup T.

Itrah wrote:There's a part Benadiri part Hawiye guy on 23andMe, he has Y-DNA R1a1a (from the Benadiri side) and claims his Benadiri side comes from Uzbekistan.

Ok walaal, here is the new ancient DNA, as promised.

Please take a look. Let me know what you make of it, either in this thread or on my blog.

Jabuutawi wrote:I read or heard somewhere Benadir is a condensed word from "Bayt al Dir", place/house of Dir.

That would be ironic since there are apparently more Benadiri E1b1b carriers than what zumaale suggests for the Dir. According to him, Dir are instead mainly haplogroup T bearers.

I think Zumaale is referring to ethnic Somalis, aka, Fardheer.

have a higher frequency of haplogroup E1b1b than what you claim for the Dir

Not sure what you mean by this, that Arab Somalis haplogroup T frequency is lower than Arab Somalis haplogroup E1b1b? They must be sheegad Arabs or Berbers.

If the sampling is geographically clustered, the result is skewed at the edges and inevitably regression to the mean smoothens out the extreme as more sampling and geographical diversity is factored into the calculations.

Bilis wrote:

Jabuutawi wrote:I read or heard somewhere Benadir is a condensed word from "Bayt al Dir", place/house of Dir.

That would be ironic since there are apparently more Benadiri E1b1b carriers than what zumaale suggests for the Dir. According to him, Dir are instead mainly haplogroup T bearers.

You are conflating two issues, the original name of the region and actual populace of the region today.

Bilis wrote:

zumaale wrote:By 23andme relatives I am referring to how useful it is to obtain info on Somali haplogroups, not how reliable STR's are in determining the TMCRA of two individuals.

Ok sxb, but I didn't say anything about how reliable STRs are in determining the most recent common ancestor (TMCRA).

I said that the BGA testing/admixture testing which 23andme specializes in -- tests which include SNP genotyping and whole genome sequencing, though the firm so far only offers the former -- is unreliable. Only when these commercial companies begin using actual ancient DNA as reference samples will their analyses begin to approach something resembling biological reality.

zumaale wrote:There is a difference between Benadiris such as the Shanshi, associated groups and the Arab Somalis that are mostly of Yemeni origin.

Haplogroup T is found in the Arabian peninsula so what's the big deal.

In this thread we were only discussing Fardheer Somalis so I don't see how relevant it is to bring Arabs into this.

It is relevant and significant because your argument was that haplogroup T among Fardheer Somalis is mainly restricted to the Dir.

I just linked you to the raw STR values for Arab Somalis, and they have a higher frequency of haplogroup E1b1b than what you claim for the Dir. Around 33% were E1b1b carriers, and many were also haplogroup T carriers. Does this make sense to you?

Plug in the numbers for each Arab Somali individual/row into this Y-DNA haplotype predictor (the numbers after each "DYS" in the paper correspond with the boxes in the haplotype predictor). You'll see that the first 11 of the 33 tested individuals are all indeed haplogroup E1b1b carriers, while several others belong to haplogroup T.

Your first point.

We were discussing only haplogroups and the predominance of certain haplogroups in certain clans. Your reference to the shortcomings of 23andme is irrelevant to this topic. As a matter of fact, it is useful in simply establishing what haplogroup an individual belongs to. Furthermore, it is an accepted fact that a full Y chromosome scan is the best method of determining how two males are related paternally. That technology exists but it is very expensive and few individuals are willing to pay around 700 dollars for it.

Your second point.

Where the fuck did I state that haologroup T is only restricted to Dirs. I never commented on Hawiye or other Samaale test results as it appears most individuals who do the test are Darood or Dir. Furthermore, I have not come across an academic study that was conducted in a mainly Hawiye or Samaale city. I have repeatedly stated that the conclusions reached from the current information available is limited until all Somali subclans are tested. Until then all we can do is rely on the few research papers out there and individual test results.

All I have argued is that Dirs appear to be mainly haplogroup T as exemplified by individual test results and also from the academic papers on Somalis tested in Dire Dawa and possibly Djibouti. I have also argued that Darood are overwhelmingly E1b1b1 according to current result trends. Whether Arabs Somais are haplogroup T or E1b1b is irrelevant to what I have been pushing in this discussion as I have never stated that we have a monopoly on haplogroup T in the Horn. Furthermore, my statements have been limited to Dir and Darood.

Whatever agenda you have son is none of my concern. Just refrain from making sweeping statements such as that bottleneck theory to explain why Dirs in Northwest Somalia appear to be predominately haplogroup T and ignoring the idea that a common paternal lineage might be the reason why we are different than Daroods from example. Not all Somalis have a 'Cushitic' origin and we are not one people if paternal lineage is anything to go by.