Religion: Belief or Fact?
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Ow okay.
I still stand by my last comment.
I still stand by my last comment.
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Dig--I agree with his observation, religion based on superstition is irrelevant, that is one of the prime reasons that after the scientific R in the 17th cen. Christianity suffered a major blow. When religion takes the place of human thinking it is no longer needed, it is just killing what it means to be human.
Allah has exalted and honoured us over the angels by giving us the ability to think and know...
Ok Haud walal go read surah 88:17/20, and Islamic history 4th till the 11th cen. and then come tell me Islam discourages Scientific thinking. Fikr, reflections and pondering are key terms in the Qur'an.
One of the scientific methods is to observe to banish falsification and distortion. Humanity is challenged repeatedly to use their natural intellect to search for the True reality and the natural world. Man is alos urged to research the secrets of the earth in-order to realise the full potential of the resources avaliable.
Allah has exalted and honoured us over the angels by giving us the ability to think and know...
Ok Haud walal go read surah 88:17/20, and Islamic history 4th till the 11th cen. and then come tell me Islam discourages Scientific thinking. Fikr, reflections and pondering are key terms in the Qur'an.
One of the scientific methods is to observe to banish falsification and distortion. Humanity is challenged repeatedly to use their natural intellect to search for the True reality and the natural world. Man is alos urged to research the secrets of the earth in-order to realise the full potential of the resources avaliable.
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Islam is not anti science. Not at all.HAUDflower wrote:OK Chili, you're dismissed.
On another note - is it strange that major religions are anti-science? Islam asks us not to explore space and touch the sky. I can't remember the quote but I had a conversation with a man who went on for length about how reaching towards the sky was a sign of the end times. He also said that cloning was a sign of the end times. Cloning could be the answer to many medical problems and yet its prohibited in Islam. We're humans, our job is to expand.
Monotheistic religions were a thing of the Biblical/Roman/Medieval human period, and now we're progressing beyond that age. I guess we've now officially grown out of that.
Wastegal - prime example of a religious zealot. I used to sound like that, but I was 12 years old.
Anything PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt has no qualms with our religion.
What in Islam is not fact? What can you point to in the Qur'an that is not a fact?
I see the cadaan philosophy majors at North Dakota are making you doubt Islam.
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Oscar Wilde was a man who thought getting shafted was what life was about. How can you bring his name up in any discussion concerning religion.Digital-Infidelity wrote:I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's profound phrase of wisdom, " Religions die when they are proved true. Science is the record of dead religions"
As for Islam, I belief its a path, one must travel down that path to find the answers. Paidmonk if you followed Islam it would establish some rules and regulations and provide you with a system and a formula for happiness in this and the next life. Islam is life and the Koran is the manuel to life.

I also you think your faith is weak witch is why you are asking these questions, and even questioning the whole logic of the diin.
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Firstly, I'm studying engineering. What does philosophy have to do with my curriculum?FAH1223 wrote:Islam is not anti science. Not at all.
Anything PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt has no qualms with our religion.
What in Islam is not fact? What can you point to in the Qur'an that is not a fact?
I see the cadaan philosophy majors at North Dakota are making you doubt Islam.
Secondly, facts are rules that are proven through experiment/testing/trial. Islam, I admit, permits science to a greater degree than other religions. But, the topic is asking you to PROVE that Islam is real. All I ask is that you list some things that makes Islam completely true. Now, I know that Islam has some verses that take shape as scientific facts, but is there solid proof. Like, can any of us SEE angels or demons, or God. Can any of us, with our OWN eyes, see religion. You see, we can't even hold a trial if the defendant is MISSING from the room. Until then, we have to keep collecting the clues until we can believe well enough to think of these clues as evidence and thus facts instead of theory. Religion, at best, is a theory.
General_SNM, thanks for proving my point. Religion is about your personal needs & faith. It has nothing to do with reality. If you WANT to believe in salvation and all that stuff, be my guest - but don't pass it off as FACT. I like monopoly the game for example, its one of my passions and a great joy of mine and I believe firmly believe in the values and tactics of monopoloy and I believe a good knowledge in monopoly can make many people happy. But does monopoly (the game, not economic theory) have any relevance to REALITY outside the game?
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Duh, one of the tenets of Islam is to believe in the unseen, nicca.HAUDflower wrote:
Firstly, I'm studying engineering. What does philosophy have to do with my curriculum?
Secondly, facts are rules that are proven through experiment/testing/trial. Islam, I admit, permits science to a greater degree than other religions. But, the topic is asking you to PROVE that Islam is real. All I ask is that you list some things that makes Islam completely true. Now, I know that Islam has some verses that take shape as scientific facts, but is there solid proof. Like, can any of us SEE angels or demons, or God. Can any of us, with our OWN eyes, see religion. You see, we can't even hold a trial if the defendant is MISSING from the room. Until then, we have to keep collecting the clues until we can believe well enough to think of these clues as evidence and thus facts instead of theory. Religion, at best, is a theory.
Your argument is the same as the gaalo scientists and the philosophers put forth. Here is a dialogue.
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God."
The atheist professor pauses before his class and
then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment.
"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you
can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I always do my best to be a good human being , Sir."
" You would help a sick and maimed person if you
could ...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer
even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm?
Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?"
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student
time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"
The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and
| turns to the smirking, student audience.
"I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All
the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student.
"WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"
The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face.
In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom
like an aging panther. The class is mesmerised.
"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He
created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of
the world.
"All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the
death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God
is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" [Pause].
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,
"Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in God, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks.
"Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five
senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. You have
never seen God, Have you? "
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard you God?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your
God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable
protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is
your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Muslim sits...Defeated.
Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard!
Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are
making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Muslim continues.
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat,
white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything
called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold,
otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - - You see, sir,
cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We
cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is
energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness?
What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing
and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to
define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would
be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can
you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery
before him. This will indeed be a good semester...
"Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed
to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort
to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand
to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains.
"That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God
and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite,
something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought.
It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less
fully understand them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be
ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a
neighbour who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts,
professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of
morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the
absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?"
The Muslim student pauses.
"Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry
he is temporarily speechless.
The student continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor,
and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be
accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is
accomplishing? Islam which means Submission to the will of God , tells us it is to
see if each one of us will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this
matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I
absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other
theological factor as being part of the world equation because God
is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this
world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going,"
the student replies.
"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell
me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,
yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his
student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution
at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a priest?"
"I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical debate."
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do ... what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin.
"Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed
phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in
uproar.
The student remains standing until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student,
may I give you an example of what I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent. The student looks around the room.
"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen,
molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his
elderly, crumbling tutor.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...
felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"
No one appears to have done so. The Muslim student shakes his head sadly.
"It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the
professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of
empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that
the professor has no brain."
This is how I look at the matter. When it comes to the ultimate questions, e.g. the "why" of creation, there are three things that we need to look into: science, logic and faith.
Before going into the main issue, it is important to understand that we are limited in our capabilities, that there are things that we cannot do and that we are not the ones in full control (and that there is no need to react arrogantly to this realization). For instance, we have only five senses, we cannot move faster than the speed of light, and none of us could have chosen the parameters (time, gene pool, gender etc.) of his own birth. Now, the main issue:
1) Science is limited to sensory data. It covers the "how" but not the "why". Science only attempts to understand the mechanism of the universe and the underlying laws. To understand why science cannot be used to answer the "why" consider a rather amusing example. Suppose that one day while taking a walk through a park, you find a CD lying under a tree and pick it up. You bring it home and find that it has a C code in it. You spend time understanding the code and after having completely understood all the subfunctions and commands in the code you conclude "what" the code does ( e.g., its a video compression code) and "how" it does it (the algorithm behind it). But can you, by only studying this work alone, conclude "why" was it created? did the coder make it for money? or was it for a developers' competition? or was it just some geek trying to impress his girlfriend? Now see the problem of the universe again. All we are doing and all we can do using science is to completely understand the universe as it is. Can all the knowlege that we are gathering be used to answer that "why" was it created?
Now comes the question that by only studying the universe, can we prove or disprove the existence of god? The cosmologists are trying to understand the creation of the universe with the help of the laws that exist merely as a result of this creation. There is no proof that these laws existed independent of this universe. This means, essentially, that whatever they conclude, will only be applicable to this universe alone and not beyound that (so concluding that, for instance, the universe came into existence from nothing, cannot be used as a proof that there is no god, for there might exist a god who created the universe out of nothing). My conclusion therefore is that these things do not fall in the domain of science.
2) Logical things are those that we expect to see on the basis of things we have already seen (for example, it is illogical to assume that all humans have ten fingures because we have "seen" mutations, if we had never ever seen mutation of any kind it would be logical to say that all humans have ten fingures). Our logic is constrained by our sensory data and by science. For example, suppose that cosmologists conclude that the universe came from nothing. Then we will adjust our "logic" to include that "somethings can come from nothing at all". Now, our logic is constrained by science, and science cannot answer the "why" of creation and cannot prove or disprove the existence of god, then how can something that is constrained by science solve these problems?
3) Once we realize that science and logic cannot help, we turn to something that answers the "why" without using science or logic. This answer would be "unscientific" and "illogical" if the original question fell in the domain of these two. But when the question does not fall in the domain of science and logic, how can the answer be labelled unscientific or illogical? It would be like the US charging a Pakistani for mutiny against the US. Here it might seem that I am suggesting that faith is the last resort (kind of a looser's "what else can I do?"), but in fact I am saying that when it comes to the ultimate questions, faith is the only resort. Does this sound too powerless? too defeated? try this "I was born on the 5th of September, 1979, what else could I have done?" So I feel no shame or problem in saying that I consider the existence of god a matter of "faith" and that I have faith in the quran because of the way it explains to me the purpose and dynamics of my life (it must be noted here that even though the quran has signs that increase our faith in it, e.g., the accurate description of human embroy, it does not answer the ultimate questions using science or logic, rahter, it invites us to believe in the unseen and the sublime and clearly tells us that both our knowledge and perception are limited). Furthermore, if 1& 2 are correct, then the atheist can never have a proof for the inexistence of god either and it will always be an atheist's "faith" that a god does not exist and that life has no purpose. I have no obligation to share the atheist's faith and the atheist has no right to tell me that his faith is scientific or logical. The atheist either thinks that the "why" can be answered by science and logic, or does not feel the need to find a purpose in existence. In the first case, he would have to prove to us that the "why" can be answered by science and logic, and in the second case we will have to let him be (since he is not interested in the issue).
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Paidmonk your not the first to have thought that they were to big for Islam and you sure wont be the last. If your not Muslim and dont believe in the Koran what do you believe in?
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
In his renowned 2001 book, The Hidden Face of God - How Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, Gerald Schroeder admits that "a single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. ... All existence is the experience of this wisdom." He adds that "every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom." To find an answer to the puzzle from where this information arises, Schroeder concludes that "wisdom, information, and an idea, is the link between the metaphysical creating force and the physical creation. It is the 'hidden' face of God."
it takes Atheists, Scientists and Western Philosophers centuries to discover this, and when you read the Qur'an all of this is repeated and repeated and repeated
it takes Atheists, Scientists and Western Philosophers centuries to discover this, and when you read the Qur'an all of this is repeated and repeated and repeated
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Paidmonk,
I can prove that Islam is indeed a fact based on belief. There are a lot of evidence to support my case, Non bigger than the Holy Qur'an. The Qur'an came 1400 years ago ,and till today, it remains unchanged.
In order to prove that Islam is a fact, first we have to prove to that Allah exists. If we can for certain prove that Allah exists, we will have no problem proving that Islam is a fact sent from Allah. How do I know that Islam is a fact?
World known scientists, Doctors and have converted to Islam after figuring out that the Qur'an has mentioned things that never crossed people's mind at that time. Modern Technology has proven just exactly what Qura'n has mentioned some 1400 years ago
Examples 1
He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night 39:5
The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping Which indicated the roundness of the earth. People used to think that the Earth was flat but the Qur'an revealed this the in the 7th century. The roundness of the earth has been proven just 100 years ago.
Example 2
When Allah desires to guide someone, He expands his breast to Islam. When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who have no faith. 6:125
Scientist just recently discovered that, atmospheric pressure goes down as the atmosphere becomes thinner.It will get the point where you can't even breath anymore. The Qur'an illustrated that in the above verse
Now we know Believe Allah ,and we believe in his Holy Qur'an based on the facts in it, now can we come to the conclusion that Islam is indeed a fact since it came from Allah?
I can prove that Islam is indeed a fact based on belief. There are a lot of evidence to support my case, Non bigger than the Holy Qur'an. The Qur'an came 1400 years ago ,and till today, it remains unchanged.
In order to prove that Islam is a fact, first we have to prove to that Allah exists. If we can for certain prove that Allah exists, we will have no problem proving that Islam is a fact sent from Allah. How do I know that Islam is a fact?
World known scientists, Doctors and have converted to Islam after figuring out that the Qur'an has mentioned things that never crossed people's mind at that time. Modern Technology has proven just exactly what Qura'n has mentioned some 1400 years ago
Examples 1
He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night 39:5
The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping Which indicated the roundness of the earth. People used to think that the Earth was flat but the Qur'an revealed this the in the 7th century. The roundness of the earth has been proven just 100 years ago.
Example 2
When Allah desires to guide someone, He expands his breast to Islam. When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who have no faith. 6:125
Scientist just recently discovered that, atmospheric pressure goes down as the atmosphere becomes thinner.It will get the point where you can't even breath anymore. The Qur'an illustrated that in the above verse
Now we know Believe Allah ,and we believe in his Holy Qur'an based on the facts in it, now can we come to the conclusion that Islam is indeed a fact since it came from Allah?
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
..i thought we had this debate here over and over many times before, as an alternative Paidmonk, why don't you do your own study of the area under discussion if your having doubts?
..information is out there, prove is out there, many scientist, etheist scholars have brought forward this pitiable argument before and they have been conquered with the facts of Islam, they have been dishonourably humiliated from time and again; focking Somalinet and how dismal this site had became
..hardcore etheist like Dhuuso-Dheer and Somalilight or Galol would even be self-conscious to start discussion on this subject
..information is out there, prove is out there, many scientist, etheist scholars have brought forward this pitiable argument before and they have been conquered with the facts of Islam, they have been dishonourably humiliated from time and again; focking Somalinet and how dismal this site had became
..hardcore etheist like Dhuuso-Dheer and Somalilight or Galol would even be self-conscious to start discussion on this subject
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
With regard to the question "why did you choose that religion", it doesn't apply to me, +99% of Snet members and most Muslims. The question applies to reverts. I didn't choose Islam. My father, mother, grandfather, etc didn't choose Islam. We weren't given a choice of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. We weren't without religion in order to review those religions and choose one. We were raised and grew up Muslims.HAUDflower wrote:If someone approached you, and asked..."why did you choose that car" you'd tell them about its MPG, its mileage, its horsepower, its appearance, and a multitude of other REASONS for which you chose it.
If someone approached you and asked you, "why did you choose that religion" many people would simply say..."its the religion of my parents, yada yada yada."
That being said, why do you entrust countless hours of your time, and virtually your entire LIFE, to your religion? In this case, Islam - what makes you confident that your time isn't wasted with religion?
In other words, what has convinced you, other than family tradition, that Islam is in fact truth and not just belief?
Can you effectively PROVE that Islam is fact? Can anyone for that matter? Do you know of an Islamic scholar who can prove to me that Islam is fact and not just belief. Because, after countless lectures and conversations, I've come across Islam, as with any other religion, to be entirely about faith, not facts. Most of you will agree, unless otherwise proven.
Your analogy to choosing a BMW and Islam is misplaced. Islam isn't a commodity you purchase. No.
I dont' know about you, but we do not entrust countless hours of our time, and virtually our entire LIFE, to Islam. Each day, the average Muslim dedicates about 2 hours (I'm being conservative with the number) to Islam. That's about 8.3% of our entire LIFE. We are confident that our time isn't wasted with Islam, because (should we be successful) Allah has promised us vast rewards in the afterlife.
We didn't claim that only family tradition has convinced us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief. Where did you get that idea? There are many reasons/factors that convince us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief. There is scientific/non-scientific evidence that convinces us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief, but the primary reason/factor boils down to; faith.
Definition
fact: Something having real, demonstrable existence.
Synonyms: actuality, event, phenomenon, reality
You want Islam to be effectively PROVEN that it is fact? In other words, you want a scientific laboratory to effectively PROVE Islam is fact? Or you want a fact you can see with your eyes (like the sunrise), a fact you can smell (fragrance), a fact you can touch (physical object) or one you can hear (howling)? There are facts in the miracles* of the Qur'an, but I doubt they will convince you, since after countless lectures and conversations, Islam isn't fact to you. Why don't you cut the chase and admit the truth? You want to meet God to assure you Islam is fact. Right?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_and_science
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_and_miracles
* http://www.quranmiracles.com/
- SummerRain
- SomaliNet Super
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Sorry for ever calling you an Agent.AbuShabab wrote:With regard to the question "why did you choose that religion", it doesn't apply to me, +99% of Snet members and most Muslims. The question applies to reverts. I didn't choose Islam. My father, mother, grandfather, etc didn't choose Islam. We weren't given a choice of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. We weren't without religion in order to review those religions and choose one. We were raised and grew up Muslims.HAUDflower wrote:If someone approached you, and asked..."why did you choose that car" you'd tell them about its MPG, its mileage, its horsepower, its appearance, and a multitude of other REASONS for which you chose it.
If someone approached you and asked you, "why did you choose that religion" many people would simply say..."its the religion of my parents, yada yada yada."
That being said, why do you entrust countless hours of your time, and virtually your entire LIFE, to your religion? In this case, Islam - what makes you confident that your time isn't wasted with religion?
In other words, what has convinced you, other than family tradition, that Islam is in fact truth and not just belief?
Can you effectively PROVE that Islam is fact? Can anyone for that matter? Do you know of an Islamic scholar who can prove to me that Islam is fact and not just belief. Because, after countless lectures and conversations, I've come across Islam, as with any other religion, to be entirely about faith, not facts. Most of you will agree, unless otherwise proven.
Your analogy to choosing a BMW and Islam is misplaced. Islam isn't a commodity you purchase. No.
I dont' know about you, but we do not entrust countless hours of our time, and virtually our entire LIFE, to Islam. Each day, the average Muslim dedicates about 2 hours (I'm being conservative with the number) to Islam. That's about 8.3% of our entire LIFE. We are confident that our time isn't wasted with Islam, because (should we be successful) Allah has promised us vast rewards in the afterlife.
We didn't claim that only family tradition has convinced us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief. Where did you get that idea? There are many reasons/factors that convince us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief. There is scientific/non-scientific evidence that convinces us Islam is in fact truth and not just belief, but the primary reason/factor boils down to; faith.
Definition
fact: Something having real, demonstrable existence.
Synonyms: actuality, event, phenomenon, reality
You want Islam to be effectively PROVEN that it is fact? In other words, you want a scientific laboratory to effectively PROVE Islam is fact? Or you want a fact you can see with your eyes (like the sunrise), a fact you can smell (fragrance), a fact you can touch (physical object) or one you can hear (howling)? There are facts in the miracles* of the Qur'an, but I doubt they will convince you, since after countless lectures and conversations, Islam isn't fact to you. Why don't you cut the chase and admit the truth? You want to meet God to assure you Islam is fact. Right?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_and_science
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_and_miracles
* http://www.quranmiracles.com/

- Voltage
- SomaliNet Super
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- Location: Sheikh Voltage ibn Guleid-Shire al-Garbaharawi, Oil Baron
Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
Paidmonk your problem is your understand of Islam was never that great. How can you have faith in and defend something you never had any knowledge of to begin with?
For example, how can an illiterate man in 4th century dark Arabia, and this is an illiterate mind you whose illiteracy is not in question and was the subject of Western and eastern writings even during his lifetime, come up with these very scientific examples:
The Miracle of Birth
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE NOW ACCEPTED 7 LAYERS OF THE EARTH
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE FORMATION OF PETROL/OIL BEFORE THE CONCEPT WAS EVEN KNOWN TO MAN
For example, how can an illiterate man in 4th century dark Arabia, and this is an illiterate mind you whose illiteracy is not in question and was the subject of Western and eastern writings even during his lifetime, come up with these very scientific examples:
The Miracle of Birth
THE QUR'AN WRITING ABOUT THE NOW ACCEPTED THREE TRIMESTERS OF BIRTH[We] then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)
ISLAM WRITING ABOUT THE ORBIT OF THE MOON AND SAYING THE ORBIT IS A "SPHERE" AT A TIME WHEN PPL THOUGH EARTH WAS FLAT AND DID NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND CONCEPT OF MOONHe creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (Qur'an, 39:6)
CORRECT CALCULATION OF THE LUNAR YEARAnd We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 36:39-40)
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE FACT THE EARTH IS ROTATINGIn former times a month was calculated as the time between two full moons, or the time it took the Moon to travel around the Earth. According to this, one month was equal to 29 days, 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is known as the "lunar month." Twelve lunar months represent one year, according to the Hijri calendar. However, there is a difference of eleven days between the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar, in which a year is the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun. Indeed, attention is drawn to this difference in another verse:
They stayed in their Cave for three hundred years and added nine. (Qur'an, 18:25)
We can clarify the time referred to in the verse thus: 300 years x 11 days (the difference which forms every year) = 3,300 days. Bearing in mind that one solar year lasts 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.5 seconds, 3,300 days/365.24 days = 9 years. To put it another way, 300 years according to the Gregorian calendar is equal to 300+9 years according to the Hijri calendar. As we can see, the verse refers to this finely calculated difference of 9 years. (Allah knows best.) There is no doubt that the Qur'an, which contains such pieces of information, which transcended the everyday knowledge of the time, is a miraculous revelation.
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE NOW ACCEPTED 7 LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHEREYou will see the mountains and reckon them to be solid; but they go past like clouds-the handiwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do. (Qur'an, 27:88)
Scientist now approve the seven layers of atmosphere: 1. Troposphere 2. Stratosphere 3. Mesosphere 4. Thermosphere 5. Exosphere 6. Ionosphere 7. Magnetosphere.It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 2:29)
Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (Qur'an, 41:11-12)
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE NOW ACCEPTED 7 LAYERS OF THE EARTH
Scientists now approve the seven layers of the earth: 1st layer: Lithosphere (water) 2nd layer: Lithosphere (land) 3rd layer: Asthenosphere 4th layer: Upper Mantle 5th layer: Inner Mantle 6th layer: Outer Core 7th layer: Inner CoreIt is Allah Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Qur'an, 65:12)
THE QUR'AN DESCRIBING THE FORMATION OF PETROL/OIL BEFORE THE CONCEPT WAS EVEN KNOWN TO MAN
THE QUR'AN MENTIONS THE RELATIVITY OF TIME A THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE EINSTEINGlorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High: He Who created and moulded; He Who determined and guided; He Who brings forth green pasture, then makes it blackened stubble. (Qur'an, 87:1-5)
and ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING OF ALL, ISLAM DESCRIBES THE EARTH WAS MADE IN 16 BILLION EARTH YEARS, THE SAME TIME SPAN ACCEPTED BY SCIENTISTS!A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count. (Qur'an, 22:47)
He directs the whole affair from heaven to earth. Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure. (Qur'an, 32:5)
The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years. (Qur'an, 70:4)
THE QUR'AN WRITES ABOUT COMBUSTION WITHOUT FIRE, ELECTRICTY
Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then settled Himself firmly on the Throne... (Qur'an, 7:54)
One example of the harmony between the Qur'an and modern science is the subject of the age of the universe. Cosmologists estimate the age of the universe as 16-17 billion years. The Qur'an states that the entire universe was created in six days. These two time frames, which may seem contradictory, are actually surprisingly compatible. In fact, both these figures concerning the age of the universe are correct. In other words, the universe was created in six days, as revealed in the Qur'an, and this period corresponds to 16-17 billion years in the way that we experience time.
In 1915 Einstein proposed that time was relative, that the passage of time altered according to space, the speed of the person travelling and the force of gravity at that moment. Bearing in mind these differences in the passage of time, the period of time in which the universe was created as revealed in seven different verses of the Qur'an is actually highly compatible with scientists' estimations. The six-day period revealed in the Qur'an can be thought of as six periods. Because, taking into account the relativity of time, a "day" refers only to a 24-hour period experienced on Earth under current conditions. Elsewhere in the universe, however, at another time and under other conditions, a "day" could refer to a much longer period of time. Indeed, the word "ayyamin" in the period of six days (sittati ayyamin) in these verses (Qur'an 32:4, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 57:4, 50:38, and 7:54) means not only "days," but also "age, period, moment, term."
In the first period of the universe, the passage of time took place much faster than that with which we are familiar today. The reason for this is that, at the moment of the Big Bang, our universe was compressed into a very small point. The expansion of the universe and increase in its volume ever since the moment of that explosion has extended the borders of the universe to millions of light years. Indeed, the stretching of space ever since that moment has had very important ramifications for universal time.
The energy at the moment of the Big Bang slowed down the flow of time 1012 (one million million) times. When the universe was created the speed of universal time was higher up to a million million times, as time is experienced today. In other words, a million million minutes on Earth is the equivalent of just one minute in universal time.
When a six-day period of time is calculated according to the relativity of time, it equates to six million million (six trillion) days. That is because universal time flows a million million times faster than time on Earth. Calculated in terms of years, 6 trillion days equates to approximately 16.427 billion years. This is within the estimated range for the age of the universe.
6,000,000,000,000 days/365.25 = 16.427104723 billion years
QUR'AN WRITES ABOUT POLLINATION, AND THE MIRACLE OF HONEYAllah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The metaphor of His Light is that of a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp inside a glass, the glass like a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, its oil all but giving off light even if no fire touches it. Light upon Light. Allah guides to His Light whoever He wills and Allah makes metaphors for mankind and Allah has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 24:35)
QUR'AN WRITES ABOUT THE UNIQUENESS OF FINGER PRINTS AS IDENTITYYour Lord revealed to the bees: "Build dwellings in the mountains and the trees, and also in the structures which men erect. Then eat from every kind of fruit and travel the paths of your Lord, which have been made easy for you to follow." From inside them comes a drink of varying colours, containing healing for mankind. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who reflect. (Qur'an, 16:69)
QUR'AN WRITES ABOUT THE SUN'S TRAJECTORYYes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)
It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)
And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)
Last edited by Voltage on Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Voltage
- SomaliNet Super
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- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:33 pm
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
So Paidmonk an illiterate man in 5th century Arabia came up with all those and more scientific proofs so maaha?
Get educated sxb because Allah gave us signs!
Why did all these non-Muslim born scientists convert! Ask yourself!
European Scientist
Finnish science researcher
[youtube]eesHQWGyXbk&feature=related[/youtube]
Irish scientist
[youtube]RkhBYryljl0&feature=related[/youtube]
Mathematics professor
[youtube]2z73ohM_Rjw&feature=related[/youtube]
German doctor and his wife
[youtube]LlOSQXzecv8&feature=related[/youtube]
Etc etc etc I think this is a call for you to get educated sxb!
Get educated sxb because Allah gave us signs!
Why did all these non-Muslim born scientists convert! Ask yourself!
European Scientist
Finnish science researcher
[youtube]eesHQWGyXbk&feature=related[/youtube]
Irish scientist
[youtube]RkhBYryljl0&feature=related[/youtube]
Mathematics professor
[youtube]2z73ohM_Rjw&feature=related[/youtube]
German doctor and his wife
[youtube]LlOSQXzecv8&feature=related[/youtube]
Etc etc etc I think this is a call for you to get educated sxb!
- Voltage
- SomaliNet Super
- Posts: 29214
- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:33 pm
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Re: Religion: Belief or Fact?
HAUDflower wrote:But, the topic is asking you to PROVE that Islam is real. All I ask is that you list some things that makes Islam completely true. Now, I know that Islam has some verses that take shape as scientific facts, but is there solid proof. Like, can any of us SEE angels or demons, or God. Can any of us, with our OWN eyes, see religion.
That thing you don't understand sxb is that Allah (swt) has given you signs. Are you following? Allah (swt) has given you signs beyond a shadow of a doubt. The thing you need to udnerstand is that you are the created, you are the one in need of salvation and Allah's mercy, Allah (Swt) will and can exist forever and infinity fine without you. You cannot. You can think you can during this lifetime but if you are a believer then you know you will in infinity. Allah has clearly said
Say (O Muhammad): 'The signs (miracles) are indeed with Allah: And most certainly I am only a clear warner.!'
It is not enough for them that we have sent down to thee (O Muhammad) the book(al-Qur`an) which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it (this perspicuous book) is a mercy and reminder to those who believe. (Qur`an 29:51)
What do you want Allah (Swt) to do? Come down and touch you by the head?Says the holy Qur`an: Nay here are signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: And none but the unjust reject our signs. (qur`an 29:49).
Allah (Swt) has clearly said I have given you signs and notice he said, true hearts, will recognize that is why some of us having the privilege to be born Muslims will not while others will convert based on those signs and miracles even still a time when Islam is the most distorted religion in the world, still making it the fastest growing religion in the world.
There are more then enough signs to see.
Telling me an illiterate man in 5th century Arabia, my dear prophet Muhammed (cs) came up with the trimester of the birth and the formation of the earth! These are the signs and more then enough on my part.
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