Somalis and Social Class

[Muhammad bin Harti]

I dont know about guys. But where I live, being Xamarawi is looked down upon.

Maybe because Reer Koonfuur are VERY VERY small in Ottawa, and that the afew Reer Koonfuur are either Dir, Midgaan or Eelay. I can count all the hawiyes families on 1 hand.

Almost all the people here (who I can say 90% were born in Xamar) claim the deegan of their subclans (IE. Burco, Bosaso, Galcayo, Gedo, etc).

[Demure]

Cawar, lol. It does no longer apply.

Voltage, You make valid points and I think you are right in regards to how and why Somalis in the west differ from those who made it here long ago vs recent immigrants.

However, I'm not sure I'm with you with the status and clan membership? We all know each clan thinks it's better than all other clans, if that's what you mean. Voltage, Unlike you, I was 10 when I left Somalia, I remember how Social class was felt in schools, social functions and so forth.

PS. for the purposes of this discussion I guess we can alter Xamar to magaaloyinki weeyna prior to the war.

[Numeric]

I can say this with some objectivity because I wasn't even raised in Africa but to be honest the most bacaac (and by bacaac I mean the most ignorant in the West, the most lost, least cultured, and least able to adapt) are the Somalis from big cities like Xamar and Kismaayo.

Not everyone from there, but the people that were born there in the 70's and very, very early 80's.

I get very surprised sometimes because I would see a person I know for a fact was just taken from their village and brought here and I would see them working with zeal, driving nice car, laying down foundation, have blackberries,etc and are even better with their families in terms of how they provide for them as well as how they keep up with their kids. And pay attention I am talking about Somalis who were in villages as late as 2001-2003.

The majority of the people I have seen that are from Xamar or Kismaayo, even if they were born there in the late 60's are bacaac. They are lazy, unwilling to adapt, are 100% the guys that loiter around in cafe shops not working or getting educated, and the mothers who only care about what gold she is going to get from Dubai while her kids are headed down the wrong way.

I know this is coming off to strong but I am glad you opened this topic. There is NOTHING that irritates me more then 35-50 year old men calling themselves "ciyaalka xaafada". Dude grow the fock up.

Now hypothesis why this is the case.

The thing is I think Somalis, like most other third-worlders, had negative perceptions of WESTERNIZATION in the 70's and 80's. They attempted to acculturate themselves to a deviant and largely non-existent form of Westernization and so when they came to the real thing it was hard to rewire themselves and catch up to the reality. The Somali taken from the village is not hardwired with negative perceptions of Westernization so when he comes here and is challenged he expects it. The Somali from Xamar and Kismaayo, especially Xamar since it was the capital and this is where that deviant culture took root, his perceptions of fitting in as a "Reer magaal" is outstripped by his lack of will; which is something he did not arm himself with as a young man in carefree third world capital and finds it hard to cultivate willpower right now. So the Somali from Xamar just drifts...

Trust this is 100% my observation and I am talking about the Somali crew that were born in Xamar from the 70's to early 80's, roughly what I call the "lost generation".

p.s. I have never seen any status accorded to somebody being from Xamar or the big cities. Usually such things are always delegated by clan membership, which is my observation.

You are keenly perceptive. That was 100% spot on observation about many who come from Muqdisho and who grew up there. Each group of somalis have their short-comings to be fair, but I find Reer Mudugs and NonBandir raised Somalis more entrepreneurial in spirit and more decent in character. Some of these reer mudugs, particularly some of their women have lost big when they arrived in the US and adopted/incorporated the bad parts of the American culture of drinking and partying, don't know if they thought that was a quick ticket to being civilized or they were simply hungry for some exotic d!ck, but all in all, Somalis from Mudug get the best rating. The only downside to Reer Mudugs and Puntlanders is their obsession with the clan. Even their Phd holders are just as clanish as their morons. If they replaced that with a sense of fairness and meritted people based on personal qualities, they would be good. Xaafad boys iyaga balooniga la ciyaar, gameka markuu dhammaadana kabahaaga hore uga sii qaado Sheekadooda xataa waa marax. Nin waynoo aboowe leh yuusan isoo marin

Demure is right about equality and access to opportunities in here, you can be what you want to be and everyone gets a fair shot if they aim for something. I worked side by side with people from Somalia who were big shots. The banker, the high ranking officer, the doc, the nurse, name any profession, Some of These somalis wouldn't have said hi to you back in the days. Also, note how there is no useless pride and nasab men cut up hilib halal. They cut you the bounds whilst smiling and making jokes, and I wonder -deep down- if they are embarrassed and avoiding making an eye contact as if they are afraid I would read their Mudug/Puntland/Lascanod minds.

[Voltage]

No no Demure, I said I never heard of social class being judged by cities as opposed to Qabiil. I agree when you say clans function as social class. But Somalis, from what I have ntoiced, do not have a class system of I am from city you are from village. I have observed some Somalis use this, but it is also as bantar and part of good humour, and very farce and fleeting when compared to clan class.

For example, does the does the Sabti that used to go to Shaneemo with her Midgaan friend now consider that Midgaan friend on the same social level as compared to a Foolculus. I think not.

The only thing that compares to Somalis clan class/social system is the religion where the religious groups actually can break free from clan to develop and established class of their own.

[Mataan_Ciideed]

"haday jidhana ma budhno"

voltage, you're right. walaahi that's one of the things i love about our culture. we don't have this kala dambays is guumaysi bullshit!. and our society is not rigid as such that anyone oo wax yar isla haysta could become influential in a given region in somalia thru his subclan!. you go to countries like egypt, where 1% of the population is living large and the rest are quiet poor, and all u hear is "yaa baash muhandis" "yaa beeh"!.

demure

yacni huma faakriin inuhum bii ziidu fil xadaara yacni law yitkalimu bil lahja al xamaraawiya.ana ba'uluhum yaa akhi inta kunti badawi asiil yacni, eeh el xamaraawi dah? ixtirim nafsak yaa bani'aadam!.

[Wise-Man]

Well, i don't know about social classes and who looks down who, but where i live, people look down when i claim Somalian. I was once advised not to claim Somali, because i have no country. so, it is just normal for human being to seek some kind of supremacy on others based on their beliefs, religion and nationality.



By the way, dont worry about Cawar's comment, because Mj faanka waa lagu ogaa..lol

[Voltage]

You are keenly perceptive. That was 100% spot on observation about many who come from Muqdisho and who grew up there. Each group of somalis have their short-comings to be fair, but I find Reer Mudugs and NonBandir raised Somalis more entrepreneurial in spirit and more decent in character. Some of these reer mudugs, particularly some of their women have lost big when they arrived in the US and adopted/incorporated the bad parts of the American culture of drinking and partying, don't know if they thought that was a quick ticket to being civilized or they were simply hungry for some exotic d!ck, but all in all, Somalis from Mudug get the best rating. The only downside to Reer Mudugs and Puntlanders is their obsession with the clan. Even their Phd holders are just as clanish as their morons. If they replaced that with a sense of fairness and meritted people based on personal qualities, they would be good. Xaafad boys iyaga balooniga la ciyaar, gameka markuu dhammaadana kabahaaga hore uga sii qaado Sheekadooda xataa waa marax. Nin waynoo aboowe leh yuusan isoo marin

Hmm

Not completely what I was aiming for but you are following the same pattern. Yes I agree, the provincial people are the reason why clannism continues to be so deeply rooted. But then again, even the so-called cosmopolitan people can never shake off clannism, which is what you said.

Which leads me to a question; Will Somalis ever be free of musuq-maasuq (corruption)?

In a society where you are your brother's keeper and your address is your geneology, how can the Somali people ever be free of corruption?

[Voltage]

"haday jidhana ma budhno"

voltage, you're right. walaahi that's one of the things i love about our culture. we don't have this kala dambays is guumaysi bullshit!. and our society is not rigid as such that anyone oo wax yar isla haysta could become influential in a given region in somalia thru his subclan!. you go to countries like egypt, where 1% of the population is living large and the rest are quiet poor, and all u hear is "yaa baash muhandis" "yaa beeh"!.

Will never happen in Somalia.

I guess this is why we are in anarchy. We are just simply too egalitarian.

[Demure]

For example, does the does the Sabti that used to go to Shaneemo with her Midgaan friend now consider that Midgaan friend on the same social level as compared to a Foolculus. I think not.

It's vice versa actually, today you will likely see ppl accepting Midgaan friends more than they did in the past.

The discrimination against minorities i.e. midgaan, gareer is another topic, which we are far from accepting at the moment.

Am glad to see most of you disagree with this notion of social class within Somalis. Again it looks like only ppl from Xamar were afflicted with this.

[Demure]

Wise-man, I don't believe Cawar is MJ, just like I know I'm not Murusade.

[Twisted_Logic]

You are keenly perceptive. That was 100% spot on observation about many who come from Muqdisho and who grew up there. Each group of somalis have their short-comings to be fair, but I find Reer Mudugs and NonBandir raised Somalis more entrepreneurial in spirit and more decent in character. Some of these reer mudugs, particularly some of their women have lost big when they arrived in the US and adopted/incorporated the bad parts of the American culture of drinking and partying, don't know if they thought that was a quick ticket to being civilized or they were simply hungry for some exotic d!ck, but all in all, Somalis from Mudug get the best rating. The only downside to Reer Mudugs and Puntlanders is their obsession with the clan. Even their Phd holders are just as clanish as their morons. If they replaced that with a sense of fairness and meritted people based on personal qualities, they would be good. Xaafad boys iyaga balooniga la ciyaar, gameka markuu dhammaadana kabahaaga hore uga sii qaado Sheekadooda xataa waa marax. Nin waynoo aboowe leh yuusan isoo marin

Hmm

Not completely what I was aiming for but you are following the same pattern. Yes I agree, the provincial people are the reason why clannism continues to be so deeply rooted. But then again, even the so-called cosmopolitan people can never shake off clannism, which is what you said.

Which leads me to a question; Will Somalis ever be free of musuq-maasuq (corruption)?

In a society where you are your brother's keeper and your address is your geneology, how can the Somali people ever be free of corruption?

No society can be free from corruption. Humans are intrinsically greedy/selfish. Somalia should have an effective and independent judiciary that is capable of bringing offenders to justice. That in the long run will minimize the reach of corruption.

[Voltage]

It's vice versa actually, today you will likely see ppl accepting Midgaan friends more than they did in the past.

The discrimination against minorities i.e. midgaan, gareer is another topic, which we are far from accepting at the moment.

Am glad to see most of you disagree with this notion of social class within Somalis. Again it looks like only ppl from Xamar were afflicted with this.

Well on your first part the changing phenamenon is a product of the liberalization Somalis went through in the West. One of the goods to happen to Somali culture we all agree.

Secondly, your last comment comes off as snotty. Can I say I was born in Xamar and so were all of my siblings, some 10 years older then me, and both of my parents were in Xamar before 1969.

Sorry, none of us are afflicted with what you are saying.

However, Cawar does remind me of some of my dad and mom's siblings who were born in Xamar in 70's and late 60's but even then like I said do not have any defined Xamarism as what you insinuate. I have noticed my mom's youngest brother born in the 70's use "reer koreed" a lot for relatives from Mudug but it is mostly joking.

[Voltage]

Hmm

Not completely what I was aiming for but you are following the same pattern. Yes I agree, the provincial people are the reason why clannism continues to be so deeply rooted. But then again, even the so-called cosmopolitan people can never shake off clannism, which is what you said.

Which leads me to a question; Will Somalis ever be free of musuq-maasuq (corruption)?

In a society where you are your brother's keeper and your address is your geneology, how can the Somali people ever be free of corruption?

No society can be free from corruption. Humans are intrinsically greedy/selfish. Somalia should have an effective and independent judiciary that is capable of bringing offenders to justice. That in the long run will minimize the reach of corruption.

...a political statement.

I just think it is going to be awfully hard to rid Somalis of corruption. How do you rid them of something they don't perceive as corrupt (like "helping out" an ina adeer).

[Twisted_Logic]

In a society where you are your brother's keeper and your address is your geneology, how can the Somali people ever be free of corruption?

I like the Saudi model-chop off their hands

On a serious note, I think the aim of any Somali government should be the indoctrination of the youth to be more individualistic and self-reliant. Individualism=Self-Reliance and sadly it also equals what Nietzsche called the " death of God."

Thinks will get a whole lot worse in Somalia before they get better.

[Demure]

Will Somalis ever be free of musuq-maasuq (corruption)?

In a society where you are your brother's keeper and your address is your geneology, how can the Somali people ever be free of corruption?

[/quote]

Not to mention the well fare abusers, who generally live on cheating the system, short cuts and lies. Very difficult task indeed, for any future civil development and moving forward in general.


Also, you misundertood on my remark regarding "Only ppl with Xamar were afflicted with Social class issues", I was going off of Mataan's remark that the average Somali or geeljire is too proud and cares nothing for who thinks is better then him. Therefore, only those elite in Xamar were the ones guilty of starting this culture of social stratification. It's just my opinion.