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Le Justicer & Gurey,

Thank you for responding with substance and merit, actual points with an actual argument. Too often, the hare-brained trolls we got running around here respond with GIFs and insults, and they think they're making a point.

Look, there is no question that for many centuries, we Muslims had the most tolerant societies, but that was because, during those times(ie, Ottoman era, Andulisan Spain), we were tolerant because we were less religious and more liberal. Anytime there is increased religiosity, there is increased intolerance. For example, during various aspects of our history(Ayyubid & Fatimid Egypt, Ottoman empire), brothels openly existed, and in some cases were even taxed. And then, periodically, the religious folk would get all crazy, and incite riots against those establishments that exist due to human need & demand, and they would be run out of town, but as soon as they religious euphoria died down, the brothels would be back, secretively at first, and then openly. And so on and so forth.

But the fact remains, with increased religiosity, when the men of the cloth hold power and influence, the more intolerant a society is. And please stop blaming the bogeyman of Wahhabism/Salafism. In the early parts of the 20th century, the Saalihiya and Qadiriyah, both Sufi orders, battled each other viciously in a religious civil war, each claiming to have "the one and only Truth". They even assassinated each others leaders. So much for Sufi "peacefullness". And the British colonials were able to exploit the religious short-sighted stupidity and use divide and conquer, the same way Shia and Sunni today are also being played against each other. The greatest victor of the stupendously exhaustive & expensive 8 year long war between Iran and Iraq from 1980 to 1988 was Isreal which was selling both sides, through intermediaries, weapons, and laughing all the way to the bank.

The bottom line is, we need less religion in public life, not more. More religion = more intolerance.

You don't believe in Janna & Naar. Is my statement correct or incorrect?

Lol, Lol, Lol. So anybody that disagrees with your idiotic beliefs is not a Muslim, right? For centuries, religious bigots have used the weapon of takfeer by calling their opponents heretics. And what an effective weapon it is and was.

Sii fiican ii dhagayso baan ku dhahay, at the risk of sounding egotistical, I am more of a Muslim and know more about Islam, than not only you, but your entire family(going back generations) and all of your teachers/macalin put together. I have memorized the Quran, laba jeer'na waala ii dhagaystay. I have a better & stronger understanding of our Islamic history(both good and bad) than anybody else I've come across. When it comes to my deen, I take a backseat to no man.

So you can understand why I laugh at of those who claim to speak in the name of Islam or why I have the confidence to criticize (some) Saxaabis and Taabicis, because I see them for what they are: fallible men who were the product of their times.

Evolution, change, and innovation are natural parts of life, and we, as Muslims, MUST also evolve, change, and innovate if we are to have any chance of living in the 21st century.

Hence, the Reformation. If you don't like that word, choose another. But change and changing is inevitable, and nothing you say or do will stop it.

Well, disbelieving part of the Quran is kufr, and there are plenty of verses that explicitly states Janna & Naar. If you don't deny them you are gone. Don't fool yourself.

About the "Reformation", how Leftist would explain this?

AirBitaale wrote:Well, disbelieving part of the Quran is kufr, and there are plenty of verses that explicitly states Janna & Naar. If you don't deny them you are gone. Don't fool yourself.

]

Where did i ever say I don't believe in Janna & Naar? Of course I believe in it. Do you know who doesn't believe in it? Hyperactive who clearly stated that he doesn't think that Heaven/Janna is a physical or literal place.

But you wouldn't dare question the Islam of hyperactive, would you? You know why, because like many other religious people, you are full of shit. You use religion as a tool to reach whatever objective you may have. Your train of thought is like: "damn, Hyperactive just made a kufr statement, but um, he's from a great religious family, so he knows what he's talking about, plus, he's the moderator here; But this leftist guy, even though he's making a lot of sense, and I'm nodding along i don't know him, and more importantly, I don't like him, so I'll question his Islam, instead of hyper"

Grow up, man; stop using religion as a tool and as a crutch, and start using your brain.

Leftist wrote:

AirBitaale wrote:Well, disbelieving part of the Quran is kufr, and there are plenty of verses that explicitly states Janna & Naar. If you don't deny them you are gone. Don't fool yourself.

]

Where did i ever say I don't believe in Janna & Naar? Of course I believe in it. Do you know who doesn't believe in it? Hyperactive who clearly stated that he doesn't think that Heaven/Janna is a physical or literal place.

But you wouldn't dare question the Islam of hyperactive, would you? You know why, because like many other religious people, you are full of shit. You use religion as a tool to reach whatever objective you may have. Your train of thought is like: "damn, Hyperactive just made a kufr statement, but um, he's from a great religious family, so he knows what he's talking about, plus, he's the moderator here; But this leftist guy, even though he's making a lot of sense, and I'm nodding along i don't know him, and more importantly, I don't like him, so I'll question his Islam, instead of hyper"

Grow up, man; stop using religion as a tool and as a crutch, and start using your brain.

How manipulative... but too bad I am not buying any of that!

I have proof where you call Heavens and hell "Khuraafaad", but the question is do you have proof when Hyper said that what you are claiming he said. Even if he did I'm pretty sure he has an explanation for it.

Leftist wrote:

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced a man to 10 years in prison and 2,000 lashes for expressing his atheism in hundreds of Twitter posts.

Al-Watan online daily said Saturday that religious police in charge of monitoring social networks found more than 600 tweets denying the existence of God, ridiculing Quranic verses, accusing all prophets of lies and saying their teachings fueled hostilities.

It says the 28-year-old man admitted to being an atheist and refused to repent, saying that what he wrote reflected his own beliefs and that he had the right to express them. The report did not name the man.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/aab8e56d ... ist-tweets

This is absolutely ridiculous...Now compare this guy's punishment to that Saudi religous cleric who raped, tortured, and killed his own 5-year old daughter in the most brutal of ways, because he said "he doubted her virginity". Final verdict? The guy got 8 years and 600 lashes, but that was only after a major public outcry, officials originally only fined him and gave him a couple of months in prison.

Honestly, hearing about these things really make lose faith in humanity and the most ridiculous of all is that Saudi Arabia is on the Human Rights Committee in the UN, like WTF. That just goes to show its all about money and power I guess. Pay the right price and even the UN will look the other way.

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comm ... r_atheist/

So, in bilaad-ul-haramain and the land of Monotheism, you can rape, torture, and kill your own child as long as your doing it for the right reasons(safeguarding the virginity of.....................your 5 year old daughter), but if you choose to express your God-given right of free speech, than you get put on death row.

Note: this is not an outlier or "shaath" opinion; according to virtually all of the books of fiqh(classical & contemporary), if a parent kills his child as a result of disciplining him/her, they are not held liable, and they have not committed murder. Why? Because fucked up mother-hubbards living in the 8th centurty said so, that's why.

And yet the dugaag continue to say that "we don't need a Reformation, we're already perfect". Ilaahay Magaciisa Sare baan ku dhaartay, if I had the ability, I would shove a massive Reformation down your throats and the throats of all those that cling to archaic "traditional"ism and a calcified "Orthodoxy". I don't give a fuck how things were done the 7th, 8th, or 9th century. We are living in the 21st century, and while you are free to believe in whatever khuraafaat(we go to heaven, others go to hell) you choose to believe in, when it comes to daily life and public society, you WILL conduct yourself according to the norms, ethics, and morals of the 21st century, including but not limited to:

- Freedom of belief/religion: That people have the right to believe whatever the fuck they want to believe, or believe in nothing at all.
- Freedom of speech: That people have the right to express themselves as they see fit, within the bounds of responsible speech.
- Equality of men and women in all areas and all things, including equality in inheritance, voting, and testimony.

But naaaaah, let's continue to perpetuate the mythology of our "superior morality", while we continue to starve and murder each other due to minor doctrinal differences............because we are so so so much better than the gaalo (/sarcasm)

Air, this guy has one mnssion, to put doubt on people who do not have enough iman or knowledge. do not be fooled to respond to him.

i said many times what he quoted, it was different context and was just brain storm not denying. how i can deny heaven and hell which is clear in quran? i was just thinking how the heaven and hell would look like. as very limited knowledge i have, second to zero, i was just imagining how would look like. my imagination as human very limited as result, i would love to just have some understanding of the concept of hell and heaven.

it's kind of fire like dunya, people keep screaming every second as burning, or it will be state of mind? i still wonder and i know very well, we cannot imagine with our human limitation.

the major reason i believe in God and islam is the ultimate justice, cause if there is not concequesses for bad and good, hell and heaven, i would loose my faith.

leftist, before you hit the search, i saved you time and energe and hope you use it for good and not anger based argument. you misdirecting your anger.

islam is perfect, God is ultimate perfect and just, human are full of shit and hypocrite. instead looking religious people look at you and you understand what is wrong with ummah.

Hyperactive wrote:Air, this guy has one mission, to put doubt on people who do not have enough iman or knowledge. do not be fooled to respond to him.

i said many times what he quited, it was different context and was just brain storm not denying. how i can deny heaven and hell which is clear in quran? i was just thinking how the heaven and hell would look like. as very limited knowledge i have, second to zero, i was just imagining how would look like. my imagination as human very limited as resolt, i would love to just hasve some understanding of concept.

it's kind of fire like dunya, people keep screaming every second as burning, or it will be state of mind. i still wonder and i know very well, we cannot imagine with our human limitation.

the major reason i believe in God and islam is the ultimate justice, cause if there is not concequesses for bad and good, hell and heaven, i would loose my faith.

If there is no consequences why bother with cibaada at all, why pray, why fast, why remain absence from sex (non-marital), why respect parents and elders, why care for anyone and anything, why do anything at all if there is neither reward nor penalty!


Hyper, I know this guy's mission. I am very much aware of it but every single thing he posts there should be at least someone who refute the nonsense he writes!

exactly, why bother if no consequesses. hack, i wouldnt go to work if no consequeses, or studied for exam if no consequences to fail or pass.

mesha ma 3iyaar ba!!

Hyper, I like how he disappears when he is caught red-handed

AirBitaale wrote:Well, disbelieving part of the Quran is kufr, and there are plenty of verses that explicitly states Janna & Naar. IF YOU DO deny them you are gone. Don't fool yourself.

About the "Reformation", how Leftist would explain this?

Typo!

funny thing is, he always attacks me cause " i am religious" but when suits him, i get free pass cause i am from religious family, but i am denying heaven and hell!!

as God told us in quran, they wont be happy, untill we deny our religion. even if we deny hell and heaven, as he claims i did, he wont be happy with me.

inan diinta ka ba7no bo raba. he was even using my private school against me, look your religious ones, they got private school....lol

we will take best of both worlds man. a lot of good thing we can take from gaalo minues they bad.

Adduun iyo aakhiraba!