Pharoah's Baboons

[hangool79]

LH,

If you read those links in the first post, a lot will become clear. Punt got it's myrrh from Arabia, had a local incense Somalia doesn't have. The Egyptians used a type of ebony that only grows in the Damot region, doesn't grow in Somalia. The fish depicted in Hatshepsut's wall carvings are from the Red Sea and do not extend into the Gulf of Aden or the Indian Ocean. The evidence goes on and on. Read the links.

The Pharoah's baboons were from Massawa, not Somalia.

No thanks, we don't want your "historical " "corrections" Punt is ours and ours alone. we don't need ajanibs trying to steal this bit of our history. Was it not enough with fish, gems and gold? must you also loot our historical heritage?

[Grant]

hangool79,

"It's mine, and I'm taking it home and you can't play with it." is quite an argument. It just doesn't get you anywhere. Regardless of where Punt was, the folks there were not Samaale.

Herding came late to Somalia. The proto-Sam only split from the rest of the Cushitic groups about 500 BC, a full thousand years after the Hatshepsut expedition. The Samaales as such didn't enter Somalia until about the beginning of the first century AD. Even then, the Eyle beat the Jidle and drove the Maadanle back into Kenya. The Samaales didn't have the numbers to dominate the natives until the 11th-13th centuries, depending on the area.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Somaliland

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA) (There's a re-direct here. Search Haplotype E3b.)

Note that E1b1b, E3b and E-M215 are all the same thing. M293 is a Khoisan sub-clade (AW, please take note.) The Berbers domesticated cattle in the western Sahara, but wild stocks for sheep and goats did not exist in Africa and nearly all subSaharan peoples are lactose intolerant. It was the Khoisan who brought lactose tolerance and domestic sheep and goats from the Levant, through the Horn, to southern Africa.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504844/

Note especially the contour maps in this last article. The relict Khoisan populations in Somalia include the Midgan, the Aweer, the Eyle and other af Hellede-speaking groups assimilated among the Reewin. It was they who dominated the area in Hatshepsuts's time. The Samaales were still on the Kenyan plains or the other side of the Ethiopian highlands. Kush itself, the largest early Cushitic community, lasted into the 4th century AD. They were at Kerma, Napata, and Meroe in the Sudan.

The Samaales are part of an ancient people with a distinguished past. They have no need to borrow the history of others.

[Niya]

A different perspective:-

http://www.wardheernews.com/wp-content/ ... Shidad.pdf


https://landofpunt.wordpress.com/tag/auguste-mariette/

[Grant]

Niya,

Thank you for two interesting articles. I note this quote under the image of the Puntite village I posted earlier, in the Auguste-mariette piece:

Land of Punt village

"Deir el-Bahri mural showing a Puntite village surrounded by Red Sea aquatic species, myrrh trees and other flora and fauna native to Northeast Africa (Edwards (1891))." I have already pointed out the significance of Massawa and the Red Sea. The article also confirms that the ebony was endemic to Eritrea and the Sudan, and has many of my other points above, including the pharoah's baboons.

The connection between the Samaales and ancient Kush and Egypt is well known and inherent in the E1b1b identity. The article by Mr Hussein would be of more value if Moxamed-dheere Cabdi could have provided associated cultural artifacts and items datable by carbon 14. The Stone statues by themselves tell us very little about who made them or when. They are clearly not of Egyptian workmanship. A professional excavation would have been more credible and perhaps can still be done.

[Jabuutawi]

OP, in addition to tossing out your "evidence" as a half-hearted attempt at pseudo-science, does not this quote in one of your links contradict your earlier statement?

In 2015, the same Egyptian and American researchers conducted a more comprehensive isotopic study to confirm their preliminary findings. This time they compared both hair and bone samples, which they had extracted from two New Kingdom baboon mummies, with those of living baboons from the primary hypothesized locations of the Land of Punt. Analyzing both oxygen and strontium values, the scientists found that the closest matches were with specimens endemic to eastern Somalia and the Eritrea-Ethiopia corridor. They thus concluded that this area was the likeliest source of the baboons that were exported from Punt to Ancient Egypt:

[Grant]

Jabuutawi,

I don't recall reading that. Which link? I was under the impression the most recent work was 2010.

This doesn't exclude Eritrea/Sudan. The closest match in the first test was from the actual port of Massawa. Given the rest of the fish, flora and Red Sea data, the island and the houses, I don't see that this changes much. Why would the Egyptians go to Somalia for goods they could get much closer?

[Adal99]

Damot was a cushitic civilisation. Altho I think Issa Somalis, Afaris. Habeshas, Tigre, Saho, and other northern cushitic grousp have a better claim than southern somalis and Oromos. During this time, most cushitic groups in Northern Ethiopia, Eritrrea, Djibouti and Issaqland were probably culturally very similar.

[Jabuutawi]

Ok, so it was Niya's link, which by the way supersedes your link. In 2015, they revisited the 2010 study and did a comprehensive analysis on the baboons and came up with the above conclusion.

https://landofpunt.wordpress.com/tag/auguste-mariette/

Scroll down midway under the section "Animals". Moreover, same fish species were found both in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, close to the Somali peninsula.

Why are you so damn adamant in discrediting anything Somali/Samaale? For your information, Samaale is not only E3B crew exclusively but T1a, such as myself and many other Somalis who hail from both north and south of the Horn.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

hangool79,

"It's mine, and I'm taking it home and you can't play with it." is quite an argument. It just doesn't get you anywhere. Regardless of where Punt was, the folks there were not Samaale.

Herding came late to Somalia. The proto-Sam only split from the rest of the Cushitic groups about 500 BC, a full thousand years after the Hatshepsut expedition. The Samaales as such didn't enter Somalia until about the beginning of the first century AD. Even then, the Eyle beat the Jidle and drove the Maadanle back into Kenya. The Samaales didn't have the numbers to dominate the natives until the 11th-13th centuries, depending on the area.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Somaliland

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA) (There's a re-direct here. Search Haplotype E3b.)

Note that E1b1b, E3b and E-M215 are all the same thing. M293 is a Khoisan sub-clade (AW, please take note.) The Berbers domesticated cattle in the western Sahara, but wild stocks for sheep and goats did not exist in Africa and nearly all subSaharan peoples are lactose intolerant. It was the Khoisan who brought lactose tolerance and domestic sheep and goats from the Levant, through the Horn, to southern Africa.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504844/

Note especially the contour maps in this last article. The relict Khoisan populations in Somalia include the Midgan, the Aweer, the Eyle and other af Hellede-speaking groups assimilated among the Reewin. It was they who dominated the area in Hatshepsuts's time. The Samaales were still on the Kenyan plains or the other side of the Ethiopian highlands. Kush itself, the largest early Cushitic community, lasted into the 4th century AD. They were at Kerma, Napata, and Meroe in the Sudan.

The Samaales are part of an ancient people with a distinguished past. They have no need to borrow the history of others.

In a way, you are correct. Puntites and the Kushites/Kerma civilisation were Cushitic and so preceded the Somalis by thousands of years. But Somalis have as much claim to them as Italians to Rome.

FYI, Cushitic land extended as far north as Upper Egypt and as far South as Tanzania.

[Xildiiid]

Lol, people when are you going to realize what Grant doing. His entire mission on SomaliNet is to question to very essence of our existence. Occasionally he talks about his CIA mission in the Jubbas to make his appearance less monotonous.

The link he posted states that the Baboons who were tested were from the Ptolemaic era. By that time there was no Ancient Egypt so it's impossible for the Greek families who tried to imitate the Hamitic Pharaos to know the location of Punt and his link proves that. It states that the findings do not disclose the location of Punt but that it was most likely centered around what is modern day Eritrea, Ethiopia and Somalia. The Baboons that were imported by these Greek families came from the area around Massawa.

Jabutaawi posted valuable information, the same research time studied hair and bone samples from Baboons imported during the New Kingdom and their results matched speciemen from Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Grant shall I go on?

[Grant]

Xildiid,

No.

"Working on the baboon discovered in the Valley of the Kings, the researchers compared the oxygen isotope values in the ancient baboons to those found in their modern day brethren. Although isotope values in baboons in Somalia, Yemen and Mozambique did not match, those in Eritrea and Eastern Ethiopia were closely matched."

Hatshepsut's mummy was recently identified in the Valley of the Kings.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... een-mummy/

The Ptommaic period pharoah's were not buried there.

Please go on as far as you can. So far this and the CIA connection are incorrect.

[Grant]

LH,

No. There is no reason to believe the Puntites were Cushitic. Judging from the physical appearance of Queen Ati, they were likely either Khoisan or an outlier of the Eurasian return to Africa from the Levant. The people in Somalia at the same period were the Bon, who became the Midgan, Eyle,etc..

[Grant]

Jabuutawi,

It's not a matter of discrediting anything. E3b is the group that became generalized as the Berbers.

I think a lot of the problem in telling Somali history comes in failing to distinguish between what was Samaale and what was Somali. They are not the same. Our good bus-driving friend, the Doctor, claims Somalis are subSaharan Blacks. which is something true only of the Bantu groups. The Khoisan once covered the entire African continent. Their remnants are neither Bantu nor Berber. We now know enough about the history that we need to start distinguishing. I am guessing that T is going to turn out to be something quite specific and interesting. Both J and T turn up in the strangest places.

[Grant]

Adal 99,

You're talking about a much later period. The Egyptian expeditions to Punt were on the order of 3,500 years ago.

According to Wiki, "Damot was a medieval kingdom in what is now Ethiopia, and neighbour to the Ethiopian Empire. Originally located south of the Abay and west of the Muger River,[1] under the pressure of Oromo attacks the rulers were forced to resettle north of the Abay in southern Gojjam between 1574 and 1606.[2]"

The time-wise connection between the Oromo and the Samaale should be obvious.

[Revolutionary]

Interesting, thanks for sharing Grant.