The Somali Pre-Cushites, the Zengi

[TheMightyNomad]

Mighty,

Who said Bantus? If we are talking about Swahilis meeting the Gosha, then we are talking post 1840. You will notice that the discredited notion is that the pre-Cushitic cultivators were partly Bantu. Timing should be of interest here. When ..."the Bantu reached the Somalia coast in the second half of the first millenium.....The early Somali are likely to have extended at least as far north as the Shebelle." The populations described in The Book of Zengi did not at any known time speak Bantu. The Gosha, Mushunguli, etc. are Bantu, but are mostly 19th century arrivals. The Zengi are something altogether different.

I am inclined to trust Shaykh Muhiyiddiin on this.

Again, the pre_Cushites were not Bantu.

Zengi is the equivalent of the term Zanj/Zenji which means Bantu which was the denote for Bantu given by Arab & muslim writers. And if you read the book i linked it also notes Swahilies like Bajuni,Mini etc didnt proceed us either. They even noted it down it wasnt only the 19th century arrivals they were refering to it was an exerpt talking about the first inhabitants of were definitely not Zengi or Bantus as they call them now.


It is obvious you post stuff you have no knowledge or comprehension for ,just copy and paste. To make matters worse you are an Anglos/German 40 year old man who is utterly obsessed with Somalis which is creepy and not healthy at all.

[Grant]

Mighty,

You have it very substantially wrong. I am 73 and I have been studying Somalia ever since teaching in Jilib in the 60's. I was not adequately prepared for the post and have spent years trying to figure out what went wrong. I have recently discovered the right kinds of questions and am finding a lot of recent research that is starting to add up. Do you know that I am still in contact with a family now in Columbus, Ohio?

Zanj also just meant "black". Samaales would have been Barbar, so the Shaykh is not talking about them.

So you have a better idea who I am:

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=346638

[TheMightyNomad]

Mighty,

You have it very substantially wrong. I am 73 and I have been studying Somalia ever since teaching in Jilib in the 60's. I was not adequately prepared for the post and have spent years trying to figure out what went wrong. I have recently discovered the right kinds of questions and am finding a lot of recent research that is starting to add up. Do you know that I am still in contact with a family now in Columbus, Ohio?

So you are 73 year old anglo/german who has been obsessed with Somalis since the 60s? Not creepy at all.

Reasearch kulaha. You just run around the internett scouting for random links from random sites which you dont even understand or comprehend which you just copy and pastes yet you think that is research?

Zanj also just meant "black". Samaales would have been Barbar, so the Shaykh is not talking about them.

I like how you are trying to act oblivious. I mean a simple google search will tell you that Zanj and Zengi are the same term. Zengi or Zangi is the persian equivalent of the term Zanj which is arabic for bantu. Historically this term was used to denote Swahili and Bantu's

Zanj (Arabic: زنج‎‎; from Persian: زنگ‎‎ zang, meaning "Land of the Blacks" was a name used by medieval Muslim geographers to refer to both a certain portion of Southeast Africa (primarily the Swahili Coast), and to the area's Bantu inhabitants. This word is also the origin of the place name Zanzibar.

[b]Zengī (زنگی) is Persian word meaning "negro, Black", and is recorded in Arabic as zanjī (زنجي) and in Turkish as zencî.[/b]

https://books.google.com/books?id=nCfeC ... ck&f=false

So you have a better idea who I am:

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=346638
https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewto ... 8&start=15

No need , i am not going to write a biography about you.

[Grant]

Mighty,

That response was all beside the point. Whatever the Shaykh called these populations, it is clear he thought of them as aboriginal. We know from other sources that these populations never spoke Bantu.

They would have included agriculturalists like the Gobweyn, hunters like the Helledi speakers, and mixed pastoralist/hunters/potters like the Eyle.
Check around in your af Samaale vocabulary and see if "Bon" comes up.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Grant who is that sheikh? His interpretation of blackness is racist!! Is he Arab or Somali?

But good read, we Somalis knew that there were people in the horn before us, we see their ruins and so on, we know we kicked out the Galla, before that maybe the Galla also kicked out other groups! That's not so hard to believe.

[TheMightyNomad]

Mighty,

That response was all beside the point. Whatever the Shaykh called these populations, it is clear he thought of them as aboriginal. We know from other sources that these populations never spoke Bantu.

You are backtracking. Zengi is persian for bantu as the definition says and was used to mark the swahili and bantu population in southern eastern Africa. What sources are these? It is clear that no other group proceeded Somalis in the horn especially the Zanj or Zengi population.

It doesnt matter if some sheikh 50 years ago thought they were aboriginal or not as his hypothesis was not found on linguistic,historical or genetic evidence, but by mere assumption. Not taking into account new knowlegde of reconstruction.

lastly can't just copy and paste old writers whos work is severly outdated when its been contested by newer work.

[TheMightyNomad]

Grant who is that sheikh? His interpretation of blackness is racist!! Is he Arab or Somali?

It is a racist interpretation which is a continuum of hamitic hypothesis. You know that hypothesis that paints us as some Darskinned Europeans or middleastern migrants. That one has been debunked, but strains of this thinking is stil prevelant when comes to african anthropology.

It is designed to render Somalis as non-Africans. Which isnt scientifically linguistically,culturally nor historically true at all.

But good read, we Somalis knew that there were people in the horn before us, we see their ruins and so on, we know we kicked out the Galla, before that maybe the Galla also kicked out other groups! That's not so hard to believe.

Ok that is also not true. The Galla were not before Somalis in the horn either.

That one has also been refuted by Somali scholars. The Galla came to kenya via the oromo expansion that took place in medieval time 16 century, before that they were located in upper highlands of Ethiopia. By that time Somalis had already inhabited and extended to cover all of the Somali peninsuala both South and the North.


https://books.google.com/books?id=BFcqA ... wQ6AEIIjAB

Note: "There is nothing to suggest that Eastern Sam expansion was preceded by an earlier (Oromo) occupation of the Horn."

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Grant who is that sheikh? His interpretation of blackness is racist!! Is he Arab or Somali?

It is a racist interpretation which is a continuum of hamitic hypothesis. You know that hypothesis that paints us as some Darskinned Europeans or middleastern migrants. That one has been debunked, but strains of this thinking is stil prevelant when comes to african anthropology.

It is designed to render Somalis as non-Africans. Which isnt scientifically linguistically,culturally nor historically true at all.

But good read, we Somalis knew that there were people in the horn before us, we see their ruins and so on, we know we kicked out the Galla, before that maybe the Galla also kicked out other groups! That's not so hard to believe.

Ok that is also not true. The Galla were not before Somalis in the horn either.

That one has also been refuted by Somali scholars. The Galla came to kenya via the oromo expansion that took place in medieval time 16 century, before that they were located in upper highlands of Ethiopia. By that time Somalis had already inhabited and extended to cover all of the Somali peninsuala both South and the North.


https://books.google.com/books?id=BFcqA ... wQ6AEIIjAB

Note: "There is nothing to suggest that Eastern Sam expansion was preceded by an earlier (Oromo) occupation of the Horn."

Ok bro, but we do agree the Gallas where in Somali regions as late as the late 1800s and were kicked out, some have been assimilated to Somali clans. Then I'm guessing they came with the Oromo migration east? How did they come North, all the way to south? How did they come through all those Somali clans in the west? This could mean we were all on the coast or far north? And they expanded towards us, and we pushed them south.

[Xildiiid]

If we're not indigenous to the Horn of Africa, how come a Proto Cushitic language was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C.

That's 2000 years before Pre Dynastic Egypt and 3500 years before the Old Kingdom was established.



The Horn of Africa, the Blue Nile and the Garden of Eden are all synonymous with Cush in the original Bible and in your Anglo-American version.

No matter how hard you try to rewrite our history, we're indigenous to this part of the world.

[TheMightyNomad]

@PrinceNugaalHawd Somalis were already in the Southern part and far deep into the western part before their expansion even occured during 17th century.
There were no Oromos living in Northern part of Somalia except for the few captured slaves as late 1800s.

In the mid-17th century, the Oromo Nation began expanding from its homeland around Lake Abaya in southern Ethiopia towards the southern Somali coast at the time when the Ajuran was at the height of its power.[49][50] The Garen rulers conducted several military expeditions known as the Gaal Madow wars against the Oromo warriors, converting those that were captured to Islam. The Ajuran military supremacy forced the Oromo conquerors to reverse their migrations towards the Christian Solomonids and the Muslim Adalites, devastating the two warring empires in the process.

Secondly the error with that Hypotheisis of Oromo preceeding Somalis, is that it was based on an assumption made by I.M Lewis.

Where he asked a group of nomads about those ruined pyramids aka Taalo tiryaads and they responded by saying a Gaal. I.M Lewis mistook it for the word Galla(Oromo) and it found it's way into academia as indication despite it being false. It was actually a refrence to camels (Gaal)

So in actuality there is no foundation for that claim to begin with. There is no evidence of any group proceeding us in the Northern Somali peninsuala especially Oromo .

This was completly debunked by Somali scholars like Mansuur.

The traditional evidence for the presence of a Galla group prior to Somalis to the Somalis, i.e place names containing the word galla is no longer viable either. As Mansur pointed out, the word gaal does not mean geographical Galla (Modern day Oromos in Ethiopia) as Lewis suggested, nor infidel as herbert lewis suggested , but means ''camel'' in Reewin language of Southern Somalia H.S Lewis and Turton's reconstruction of the migrations of the Galla and Somali and Mansur's definition of the word gaal are good indications that Oromo never lived anywhere in Somalia prior to the Somalis

https://books.google.com/books?id=XpdAz ... la&f=false

[Grant]

Grant who is that sheikh? His interpretation of blackness is racist!! Is he Arab or Somali?

But good read, we Somalis knew that there were people in the horn before us, we see their ruins and so on, we know we kicked out the Galla, before that maybe the Galla also kicked out other groups! That's not so hard to believe.

Thanks, Prince,

" Sheikh Abu Bakr S. Muhiyiddiin (of the arab clan Al Faqi), Chief Qadi and Ulama in the 1920s. It was he who provided Cerulli with some rare and precious documents, helping him to reconstruct the history of the Arabs in Banaadir. The ancient documents, originally came from the archives of his grandfather, Mu’allim Mukarram who died in 1850, and his father S. Muhiyiddiin, well-known as Mufti of Banaadir."

I'm not sure. Is the answer, both?

The Samaales preceded the Galla. The Gaal Madow wars were fought between the Galla and the Ajuuraan when the Galla came in from the south.

The Midgan and others were the Bon of the north. The Yibir still had control of a big chunk until the time of Aw Barkhadle in the 13th century. The Madhibaan say they were subjugated by the Hawiyye in the 11th century. The Eyle defeated the Cushitic Jidle and drove the immigrant Cushitic Maadanle back into Kenya. It didn't all fall on one side until much later.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Grant yeah you answered he is Reer Xamar Banadiri, there is a Reer Sheikh (maybe his family) of reer Faqi of the Reer Hamar.

The might thanks bro