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SNM Chick: I don't know about the attacks on New York and Washington, but I can assure you that the attacks in Madrid were commited not by Al Qaeda, but a Moroccan branch called The Salafist Army for Martyrdom or something like that. They were the same guys who committed that attacks in Casablanca (Morocco) the previous year. And also I can assure you that they weren't CIA agents or movie actors pretending they were muslims: they were actually muslims. Why do I know that? Because the guys killed themselves some weeks after the Madrid attack, when the Spanish Police found them and sorrounded them in an apartment in the town of Leganés, near Madrid. Before bombing themselves, they started praying to Allah so everybody could hear them and shouting Allahu Akbar all the time. Then, they killed themselves, also killing in the action a policeman of the Special Operations Group.

Actually, the Government by then, ruled by the conservative party, tried to lie to the Spanish people after the attacks in Madrid claiming that it was ETA (the Basque terrorist group) instead Al Qaeda when everybody in the country knew that the attacks on Madrid were the response to the decission of the Spanish Government to team with Bush and Blair about Iraq. Those Government's lies had the consequence that the Government lost the elections three days after the attacks and the Conservative Party was substituted by the Socialist Party, which is ruling the country now.

29 persons were catched by the Spanish Police (most of them Moroccan guys, one of them having at home the last wills of one of the suicide-bombers). The mega-trial, in which the defendants are facing to punishments for the murder of 191 people and the murder attempt of near 2.000 people, is starting today. If you're stuck to the news, you will find out that, at least the attacks on Spain, were not fabricated by the CIA, unless the CIA has muslim suicide-bombers among its agents...

OK back to square one. Because even poor Kamal is getting confused here.

Al Qaeda is every bit as much an idea as a physical organization. Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri understood full well, having done their homework, that if Al Qaeda structured itself as a line and block chart, it would be much easier to dismantle. So instead of firm and constant associations and dependencies, it built a loose organization, with a solid core, and a funding mechanism, but also with a large amount of loose associates which it did not directly control, but who were ideologically bound to it.

The idea was to create sort of a phantom, in which attacks would continue, and Al Qaeda would talke credit for those attacks indirectly, while directly threatening future action, which might never be directed from the core at all. Indeed the core would not even know they were coming. In this way, it could avoid the linkages that would make it vulnerable, all the while creating doubt and debate everywhere about Al Qaeda's capabilities, limitations, and, in some cases, the legitimacy of those who resisted its objectives.

In addition to the fact that it's amorphous nature makes it difficult to erradicate, it also plays well to the Islamic mind set that every official body that is not Islamic is engaged in conspiracies against Islam and Muslims. This plays to that world view well, as the leadership of Al Qaeda well understand.

Correcting myself: The mega-trial is starting tomorrow.

Mac: Al Qaeda is the name the West put to an entity in order to understand the islamic terrorism. What I'm trying to say is that the Moroccan guys had nothing to do with Bin Laden. You're right in one point: Al Qaeda is a phantom. Wherever a islamic attack happens, you name it Madrid, Burkina Fasso or Thailand, Al Qaeda will claim it was them, which is not true. Al Qaeda is only the 'umbrella' under the fanatics all over the world can act. But I don't think Bin Laden has much to do about it. Any crazy guy in the world can bomb himself killing some housekeepers in a supermarket and Al Qaeda will claim they did it.

Kamal
I am right on all my points.

Al Qaeda does exist in form, but also as an apparition.

Groups that are not directly linked, but that are salafist in orientation, are, by their and Bin Ladens definition, Al Qaeda. They share the same objectives.

Think of a flat structure instead of a pyramid structure. Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri are moral leaders of the movement, rather than tactical leaders. Their tactical leadership role was abandoned after the US led Afghan campaign in order for them to survive and function as the moral heads of the movement.

Mac: I think we're trying to say the same thing with different words.

One thing I know for sure is we do not know who is doing what.... We only believe what we hear from the news..If we hear from the news that Xaawa Ibrahim was conspiring something, no one will say "Wait a minute how can that be possible, but everyone will fall for that news.. This world we live in now scares me walaahay...

Kambuli: Tomorrow, in Spain, we all will hear the defendants speaking for themselves. That's a point. But you're right too. If the news say that there was a conspiration in process, we all will believe it. Really scary.

After Al-Jazeera journalist Taysir Alouny was detained (I know him personally, 'cause he lives in my city and we have met sometimes and had some small talks) another journalist, a work-mate from Sahara (and muslim) asked me: "If some day the Police walks in for me, don't believe a word of what they say about me, promise me that". If Police would enter some day in my work-mate's house, they would find really dangerous proofs of terrorism: Arab tea-cups, one Al Quran, water-pipes, Arab-Spanish dictionaries and books about the Arab world. Enough to put you into jail.

Here is his picture

http://www.gedonet.com/index.php?news=1047

"Actually, the Government by then, ruled by the conservative party, tried to lie to the Spanish people after the attacks in Madrid claiming that it was ETA (the Basque terrorist group)"


Kamaal, Are the Basque people seperatist?

Ahmed-Gurey: Just very few of them. Basques are mainly nationalist, but not separatist. In terms of elections, in the last polls, the political party which, in a certain way, represented separatism, got only 7 seats in the Basque Parlament. The main force there is the Basque Nationalist Party, followed by the (Spanish) Socialist Party. The Conservative (Spanish) Party has also a small representation in the Basque Parlament.

The main problem is that the separatist minority wants to impose its wills through the use of violence and terrorist attacks. Let's say tha among a population of almost 3 milliones people, only 200.000 feel some kind of symphathy to separatism (10%). The vast majority supports a bigger autonomy for the Basque Country, but they don't want the full independence from Spain. They know it would be a great failure for their industry and economy to have full independence. Only the fanatic ultranationalists want that.