Your suggestions on how to give/claim back stolen property

[Beans]

U r cruel yung.

[Alphanumeric]

[yungnfresh]

I'm out before I get banned for hijacking green's thread

[SultanOrder]

Alpha it is a clan issue. You have people who believe that the spoils of war are for the victor, houses and properties are for the squatters. You have people who doubt it's really a big issue. You have people who want to muddle the question of returning former property, with a claim that it might of already been stolen in the first place so those claiming may not even have a legitimate claim. Basically it is a highly charged issue.

Veiled garbasar has basically answered the reality on the ground. If the daughter of Mohamad Siyad Barre aun got land in caylasha biyaha, from Shabab, the question has already been answered. And this whole topic is not inline with the reality on the ground. Anyone who has a deed to the land and house will get that back. The government only nationalized property that wasn't owned (no deeds didn't exisist), or compensated for the land they took. Again Veiled answered that question with how her dad was compensated for the land the government took, and her family doesn't hold any claims to that land. She seems to be the only person on here who knows the reality on the ground, I wouldn't take other peoples views seriously.

[Alphanumeric]

Thanks. It's reassuring.

[Adali]

OK so we really are comparing the two, I was going to brush this topic aside as another hateful tribalist topic made by our resident female Moriyaan Greenday, but I guess if Alphanumeric will take it seriously I must engage this topic also with some level of seriousness. Comparing Post-1991 carnage with prior-1991 alleged corruption. "I already feels stupid comparing", but I'm going to get on with it, bearing in mind these factors, 1. magnitude of looting, 2. clan dimension of perpetrators, 3. clan dimension of victims, 4. reliability of allegations.

1. The magnitude of looting and land graping of post 1991 is in epidemic proportion, we have all sides agree on this in the real world and I expect people not to argue over this fact, not even here in Somalinet can anyone be that deluded. The Kacaan has been accused of land graping(we will discuss this in point 4.) but even the accusers will agree that this was isolated incidents and very small number of accusations exist today, except of course those who have now looted property and are using the previous victims as means to justify their crime.

2. In this alleged act of the Kacaan clan dimension played a small role if any at all. the Post-1991 was started off by USC which was a Hawiyo clan organization and therefor clan dimension played an immense role in property looting and land graping of post-1991 as the perpetrators were all Hawiyo.

3. Victims of this disaster in the case of the alleged Kacaan involvement has no clan dimension again. Victims of Post-1991 carnage had victims of all tribes but 95% were non-Hawiyo, including Daroods, Banadiri, Raxanweyn etc, the other 5% were mostly Hawadle and smaller Hawiyo tribes, so clan dimension plays a huge role agin in post-1991 land graping and looting.

4. How reliable are the accusation made against the Kacaan, are they valid or people trying to exonerate themselves in attempts to keep their looted property ?? certainly it has been the case with government property being illegally occupied as by opposer of the Kacaan, and even civil servant private property being illegally occupied under the pretext that they were associated with the Kacaan and thus inherently evil, but this accusation thrown at private owned and build property is unfounded and false, it only acts as means to justify the carnage of post-1991. What about the post-1991, did they steal property, again this is self evident, majority of non-Hawiyo are here because USC and have had their property stolen.

Conclusion, we cannot compare post-1991 when it was a policy to loot, kill, rape all non-Hawiyo for several years, to a Government that had no policy of such kind, yes corruption may exist it exist all over the world. Also Government gave due process to anyone, there was courts you could appeal to, there was law and order, this cannot be compared to post-1991 where property was stolen and in most cases people payed the thugs to leave.

Doesn't anyone stop to remember that the MSB government was a national government and consisted of different people from all sorts of backgrounds? What about all the Hawiye former government members who were given lands that were nationalized, taken from others; Hawiye or not? How come everyone simply chooses to disregard them? Furthermore, what about the countless Hawiye people who's homes were looted during the civil war? By other Hawiyes? Mostly marauders from Mudug or the central regions who've never seen Xamar or its surroundings? Nothing is ever black & white. Instead of trying to legitimize the post-civil war looting to the going-ons during the 20 years of Kacaanka, why not employ some common sense & try not to stir clan hostilities? Its foolish to try to pin all blame on a single clan, when it was a few greedy individuals that perpetuated the violence and profiteered from it. Most of you are too young to even remember a Somalia before all this clan carnage or even the war, no clue where all of it comes from?

Avicenna You are probably one of the most responsible posters here, I admire how you respect Somalinimo and distance yourself from tribalism, but I have to disagree with you on one point. I don't see how the clan dimension in regards to land graping in the case of Kacaan corruptive elements can in anyway be compared to the clan dimension in regards to property graping of the USC, because the USC was 100% Hawiyo, the victims were 95% of Non-Hawiyo most of which were Darood, Don't downplay it.
whereas the Kacaan(I feel stupid even discussing this) had as you said all sorts of tribes within and all sorts of tribes in the receiving end of what ever the Kacaan supposedly did.

This whole discussion reeks of tribalism, and it is not the usual banter, but something very sinister is being discussed here, comparing a functioning government of Kacaan to the post-1991 era, there are more corruption in Ethiopia, Kenya, Arabia, and many semi-prosperous and developing countries than there ever was in the Kacaan and yet here are people who compare a functioning government to post-1991 something nobody wants and many nation leaders use Post-1991 as an example of death, destruction, no hope, and rightly so, this topic is something I would expect from a USC commander giving a speech in a USC rally, seriously greenday you out did yourself WOW.

[Alphanumeric]

I really regret posting in this thread.

[Based]

An amusing anecdote I read in the SL section earlier.

However they were paid small compensation for the properties that was taken from them.

Private Land
In Hargeisa,land grabbers primarily targeted the land of former officials of the Barre regime, often claiming
that it had previously been obtained by illegal means. Land grabbing also had a clan dimension. The land of
many non-Isaaq, who had fled the country for their own security, was grabbed away by the returning Isaaq
population, often on the false pretext that they were associated with the military regime.Ahmed Dhegah
district in Hargeisa is a case in point. A large number of Gadabursi previously lived in this area, but most of
their properties were taken over by individuals from the Arab sub-clan of the Isaaq, which is the dominant
clan in the area.
In Mogadishu, conflicts related to land grabbing during the civil war are named as a major obstacle to
peace.In Somaliland, however, most of theses conflicts seem to have already been resolved and those
who had their land grabbed away were paid small compensations.

Justification of looting is not exclusive to Xamar, but it seems the rest of the Somalis figured out it's a flimsy argument at best. As I read this thread, two things stood out to me the most: the underlying belief that the Kacaan government was exclusively Darood and benefited Daroods (in particular Marehan) alone and that any Darood property in Xamar was a direct result of corruption. Whereas a man like Abdiqasim Salad Hassan, the former Interior and Finance Minister of the Kacaan is not asked to "prove beyond a doubt that they got that property legitimately" because of his clan affiliation, my grandmother who moved to Xamar in the pre-kacaan era would have to prove that her currently occupied modest home was not a result of nepotism, at least according to the rationale of some folks here

[greenday]

One, people are just getting land that should never be given back case in point ilmo siyaad barre! how on earth can it be right to give anything he owned? That land belongs to the state and it just shows that people will give back land without putting much question up or even thinking logically, how did they get the land in the first place?

There are 3 people who said land was taken of them in this thread, one got money even though he didn't want it the other two didn't and people ae so quick to deny these things happened! And there many stories like these.

[SultanOrder]

One, people are just getting land that should never be given back case in point ilmo siyaad barre! how on earth can it be right to give anything he owned? That land belongs to the state and it just shows that people will give back land without putting much question up or even thinking logically, how did they get the land in the first place?

There are 3 people who said land was taken of them in this thread, one got money even though he didn't want it the other two didn't and people ae so quick to deny these things happened! And there many stories like these.

Greenday, define getting land back that should never be given? By what standard do you make these declarations? What cases do you know of this happening other than Ilmo siyaad, since you never knew this until warsan mentioned it. If ilmo siyaad barre have deeds to properties, this is a matter for the civil courts. I'm freaking amazed that Shabab would do that, and that shows the anti-tribalist mentality they have in mind.

[greenday]

I never thought it before warsan because I thought it would be unthinkable that they off all people would get shit back or even dare to ask for! You mean to tell u agree that the assets of a dictator should be given back to his children! What gd is a deed when it could be given by their father?

They probably have millions their father took from the state.

[Voltage]

This topic has been very stimulating and informative. I am satisfied with the way the issue of civil war land looting in Mogadishu has been addressed since the ICU rose in Mogadishu. We see signs the future will be even more fair and just. Amina Siad Barre has every right to her properties and I am glad to see she has gotten it back.

[greenday]

Am shocked that you actually can support a dictators child should be given back anything walahi am amazed

[SultanOrder]

I don't know what "millions" they have, when his grandchildren live in middle class homes in Canada, some are supported by the Oman Government and live in Oman. They don't live the luxuries lifestyles of the families of former dictators from even poorer countries. Sheikh Sharif, hell even Ali Gedi is richer than Siyaad Barre's whole family. I kid you not. Even A/wahab once said on here, he may of been a dictator, but he never was luxuries, build fancy homes etc.

But, what it definitely shows is the commitment to respect documentation. And for that I have to respect that. There is a lot of criminals who own deeds, and for the sake of setting a standard and justice of the innocent, we have to accept it. Like it is said, it is better to let go a hundred crimes than to punish one innocent person.

Anyway this is something for the courts to deal with, and not add personal emotions.

[greenday]

PO, so you agree that his land should be given to his children? yaab walahi waa yaab and anyone who gives it back is a fool