Muslims for Progressive Values

[union]

union,

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE which suggests that homosexuality is not a choice. Nothing, now you're just spouting lies by saying there is evidence of it not being a choice.

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Another line of testing done to support the biological perspective are neuroendocrine studies. The neuroendocrine viewpoint's basic hypothesis is that sexual orientation is determined by the early levels (probably prenatal) of androgen on relevant neural structures [7]. If highly exposed to these androgens, the fetus will become masculinized, or attracted to females. This research was conducted on rats at Stanford. The adult female rats that received male-typical levels of androgens sufficiently early in development exhibited male symptoms of attraction. The same was true in the reverse when applied to the male subjects. The female exposed to high levels of the hormone exhibited high levels of aggression and sexual drive toward other females, eventually trying to mount the other females in an act of reproduction. In the males, the subject who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rat [7].

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

[FAH1223]

You're pretty much saying Islam is not sufficient to use as the source to building a state. Or that there is something inherently wrong with this way of like.

Stuff like homos being out in the open in society and preaching their lifestyle to the public....It has no place in a Muslim society and no matter how hard you try, you will never change the Qur'an's position on it nor Nabi Muhammad's sayings. This isn't about PERSECUTION... this is about upholding the moral character. And again, societies play a role in this as well as culture. The majority of cultures in the Muslim world are against this deviation and will not accept it. The same with other aspects of Western society that are haraam.

The sharia doesn't persecute those of other faiths... in fact, the sharia doesn't even APPLY to non-Muslims as they have their own laws from their own traditions. But for us Muslims, it is sufficient and if there are minorities in our lands... they are to be respected and treated equally.

What is it about ISLAM that you have a problem with? You may have a problem with Muslims, but what about THE RELIGION itself do you have trouble with?

At the end of the day, it is becoming clear as night and day that the only way to protect the rights of man and citizen, of every belief and creed, is to create a state unprejudiced by the effects of religion. A great deal of people base their own bigotry not on their personal need to see others treated unequally, but on some form of divine unalterable truth. I do not know how to respond to people who say it is my religion to persecute gays, or that my faith is affronted by the idea of liberty of conscious or that elements of human rights are inconsistent with my spiritual beliefs or that person worships God differently than I do, therefore I shall fight them until they adopt my way of worshipping God. We see the effects of this in Somalia today, where the salafis are in war with the sufis over the latter’s alleged worship of graves. A state whose legitimacy comes from the enforcement of religion is incompatible with the Islamic doctrine of no compulsion in religion, and will result in the repression of dissenting belief and lifestyles, such as the Islamist Republic of Iran which actively persecutes gays and Sunnis, believing both to be an affront to the true message of God. The greatest single argument for secularism is the great diversity in the Muslim world in regards to faith, lifestyle, political views etc etc. An open mind is the basic element of wisdom, and I fear many of those who are so blinded with their own religious dogmas will never have an open mind that can tolerate and respect others who choose to live their lives differently than they do. We should not allow such persons to control the governance of our societies.

[Voltage]

Voltage, you need to slow down with your false equivalences. It’s beyond me how you can equate my defense of basic human rights principles that are perfectly in line with Islamic teachings to known Islam hater and liar Ayan Hirsi and Al Qadea. That is simply false, bogus and offensive.

You seem disingenuous.

[Goljano Lion]

Shirib, if you have a sexual attraction to men you are gay. And if you decide to sleep with another man based upon that attraction, then yes that is largely because of a sexual disposition outside of your control. If you decide to sleep with another man without that sexual attraction, for whatever reason, while you make be engaging in a homosexual act you are not homosexual. Also I am not saying anything, this isn't my opinion, this is the conclusion reached by scientists.

must be a daboole scientist i bet you
your statement doesn't make any sense at all , if you have a sexual intercourse with another man, you are a homo period, stop promoting your homosexual propoganda What does a gay man and an ambulance have in common?
They both get loaded from the rear and go whoo-whoo!

[Shirib]

union,

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE which suggests that homosexuality is not a choice. Nothing, now you're just spouting lies by saying there is evidence of it not being a choice.

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Another line of testing done to support the biological perspective are neuroendocrine studies. The neuroendocrine viewpoint's basic hypothesis is that sexual orientation is determined by the early levels (probably prenatal) of androgen on relevant neural structures [7]. If highly exposed to these androgens, the fetus will become masculinized, or attracted to females. This research was conducted on rats at Stanford. The adult female rats that received male-typical levels of androgens sufficiently early in development exhibited male symptoms of attraction. The same was true in the reverse when applied to the male subjects. The female exposed to high levels of the hormone exhibited high levels of aggression and sexual drive toward other females, eventually trying to mount the other females in an act of reproduction. In the males, the subject who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rat [7].

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

My point stands there was nothing conclusive about that. But I'd love to read anything else you are bringing forward.

[union]

union,

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE which suggests that homosexuality is not a choice. Nothing, now you're just spouting lies by saying there is evidence of it not being a choice.

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Another line of testing done to support the biological perspective are neuroendocrine studies. The neuroendocrine viewpoint's basic hypothesis is that sexual orientation is determined by the early levels (probably prenatal) of androgen on relevant neural structures [7]. If highly exposed to these androgens, the fetus will become masculinized, or attracted to females. This research was conducted on rats at Stanford. The adult female rats that received male-typical levels of androgens sufficiently early in development exhibited male symptoms of attraction. The same was true in the reverse when applied to the male subjects. The female exposed to high levels of the hormone exhibited high levels of aggression and sexual drive toward other females, eventually trying to mount the other females in an act of reproduction. In the males, the subject who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rat [7].

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

My point stands there was nothing conclusive about that. But I'd love to read anything else you are bringing forward.

What do you mean by “conclusive”? If you mean convincing, the stuff I posted is more than sufficient for an open minded person. If you mean absolutely 100% final, you’ll be hard pressed to come up with anything in science that can make such a claim. But like I said to FAH, you reject even evolution which is based on firm scientific principles, it’s highly unlikely that you’ll accept any scientific research that does not conform to your preconceived opinions.

[Goljano Lion]

Union
What did one gay sperm say to another?
How do we find an egg in all of this shit?

[FAH1223]

where's the missing link between transitional species, union? guess, what... no one's come up with that.

[accident]

Nobody is going to listen to anyone, why do you guys carry on?

[FAH1223]

Nobody is going to listen to anyone, why do you guys carry on?

union is the lost sheep in the room. i wonder how he developed problems with Islam?

[melo]

At the end of the day, Allah SWT said in surah Maidah that he completed this religion. Progressive Muslims are murtadiin. The end.

[Alphanumeric]

MPV is too close to HPV for me to consider approachable in any sense.

[union]

where's the missing link between species, union? guess, what... no one's come up with that.

FAH, the problem with you is that you are devoid of any critical thinking faculties. Graduating from college was indeed a wasted investment for you, my friend, as you appear only adept at regurgitating the idiotic claims of others without doing the slightest bit of thinking to examine the veracity and integrity of those claims. It is so unbearable for me to tolerate the moronic dispositions of lesser minds, I’ve tried adding you to my ignore list but alas it is not possible to ignore mods. Obviously schooling is not a sufficient remedy for severe cases of stupidity, so we can only turn to prayer. I pray for you my friend, I pray to God that your braincells return from their permanent hibernation.

[TheblueNwhite]

Shirib, if you have a sexual attraction to men you are gay. And if you decide to sleep with another man based upon that attraction, then yes that is largely because of a sexual disposition outside of your control. If you decide to sleep with another man without that sexual attraction, for whatever reason, while you make be engaging in a homosexual act you are not homosexual. Also I am not saying anything, this isn't my opinion, this is the conclusion reached by scientists.

must be a daboole scientist i bet you
your statement doesn't make any sense at all , if you have a sexual intercourse with another man, you are a homo period, stop promoting your homosexual propoganda What does a gay man and an ambulance have in common?
They both get loaded from the rear and go whoo-whoo!

There are college male students who are heterosexual but engage in sex with gay men for money in order to pay for their tuition. They're male prostitutes basically and you can't really call them gay because relationship wise they prefer to be with women sexually but they've sex with men for money only. I think that's what Union is saying.

How far is one willing to go to earn a living?, that's another debate.

[AhmedBoqor]

All Im saying is this

Let the Atheists be Atheists
Let the Christians be Christians
Let women dress how they want
Let men and women live how they want

How does this affect anyone's life I do not know. Does it affect you that a girl is walking around hijabless? As long as they not spouting anti-Islam nonsense and are being harmful to society, we should just live and let live.

That is my basic principles.

Being Gay, at least out in the open, is spreading anti-Islamic notions.