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Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:50 pm
by Itrah
zumaale wrote:I just proved to you how science alone cannot shed light on the origins of a people by using the Bulgar example. Somalis out of their own free will associate the Samaale identity with Dirs and not Darood, however, much you argue. Your own people testify to this.
That's because of the bullshit Hashemite fairytales the Darood fell into (common all over the Muslim world). You can't rely on the bullshit oral history of Somalis, 99% of it is fake. I just look at genetic facts and strong correlations.

The Hawiye claim to be Irir Samaale and they are mainly E-V32. It is not a Dir specific identity.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:01 pm
by Jabuutawi
Yes, and there was a time the sun never set in Britannia's territories, I guess you could say Kunte Kinta, by way of E1b1b, was a proud Englishman with stiff upper lip. Again, conjecture on your part.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:07 pm
by Itrah
Jabuutawi wrote:Yes, and there was a time the sun never set in Britannia's territories, I guess you could say Kunte Kinta, by way of E1b1b, was a proud Englishman with stiff upper lip. Again, conjecture on your part.
We don't know where Samaale died, we don't have his remains. Nobody will ever now.

However, I use him as the symbolic ancestor of the clade most frequent/modal in Somalis considering that the Somali ethnicity is named after him.

Scientists have done something similar by calling the matrilineal MRCA of all humans ''Mitochondrial Eve'' after the biblical Eve. It may not even be her marker, but it is just used for the sake of it. Why can't I do the same with Samaale? :lol:

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:08 pm
by Xildiiid
Bilis wrote:
Jabuutawi wrote:I had to come back, albeit for a second :) .

Billis, you are pushing the envelope a bit too far in suggesting the possibilities other than E1b1b in Djibouti could be, well, Bantu stock. That is a preposterous statement, and you know it brother. Overwhelming probability, in fact, certitude is majority of Djiboutians carry the Y-DNA chromosomal haplogroup T. Haplogroup J, I give you that for the close proximity to what is now referred to as the Arabian peninsula. Though their numbers are negligible in Djibouti.
Wa kaftan sxb, of course. I just threw that in there for a laugh cause I knew Beesha Dhexe would have a heart attack. :lol:

It's probably instead mainly haplogroup T, perhaps with some J on the side. :up:

What's Beesha Dhexe?

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:14 pm
by zumaale
Itrah wrote:
zumaale wrote:I just proved to you how science alone cannot shed light on the origins of a people by using the Bulgar example. Somalis out of their own free will associate the Samaale identity with Dirs and not Darood, however, much you argue. Your own people testify to this.
That's because of the bullshit Hashemite fairytales the Darood fell into (common all over the Muslim world). You can't rely on the bullshit oral history of Somalis, 99% of it is fake. I just look at genetic facts and strong correlations.

The Hawiye claim to be Irir Samaale and they are mainly E-V32. It is not a Dir specific identity.
Nothing to do with the Hashemites crap they adopted. Other Samaales including Dir have always emphasised their non Samaale identity.

I agree many Samaales might be E-V32 but that does not take away from the fact that the historical authority figure of Samaales were Dir. Some families might have been coopted in to this identity but Samaale folklore and Dir are indivisible. Why would a non Samaale group be considered as one of the pioneers of such an identity? A more plausible theory is that Dir spearheaded the creation of such an identity amongst the Cushites they encountered in Northern Somalia and that Darood only late became part of this group.

As for Hawiye, the test results we have of them are limited and both lineages appear to be present in them. Until more of them get tested, the jury is out and we cannot hypothesise.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:40 am
by NobleGeeljire
Bilis wrote:
Alpharabius wrote:If you guys want nothing to do with the Bantu/negroid populations of Africa ,and you want us Northeast Africans to have our own identity, then why not take the same approach when it comes to dealing with Semites and their culture , language etc ?
It is one's duty to defend one's ancestors. However, this indeed can and should be done while also making sure to respect as much as possible the dignity of other ancestral populations. The ideal ethos here would therefore be pro-Puntite; not anti-Negroid or anti-anything for that matter. :up:

That said, I personally don't have issues with the continental name "Africa". The etymology of that name was actually derived from a Hamitic people, the "Afri" (a Berber group). It's the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" that's the real problem. This is because, by default, this neologism attempts to establish a false divide between the Afro-Asiatic/Hamitic-Semitic sibling populations on either side of the Sahara. Such a partition simply did not exist in antiquity, nor does it now.

Also, Semites are part of the greater Afro-Asiatic family, so they are not comparable to Bantus/Nilotes in that regard. Somalis and other Hamitic peoples in the Horn have close cultural, genetic, historical and linguistic ties with populations in Southern Arabia. Even the camel saddle that reer miyi traditionally use is the same as that used by the ancient Southern Arabs:
"An introduction of camel from Arabia into the Horn at an early time, perhaps between 2500 and 1500 B.C., might be also supported by the use of an archaic South Arabian type of camel saddle in Somalia and Socotra."
Basically, there are three layers in the traditional Somali culture. The first and oldest layer is that of the Neolithic pastoral culture, as depicted on the rock art at Laas Geel and other areas in the Somali territories. This aspect is mainly gone; a few remnants of it are still found in the mainstream Somali culture, but more so in that of the Gabooye. The second and most important layer in the traditional Somali culture dates back to the Land of Punt. It contains elements of ancient Egyptian, Khaleeji and Greek culture due to longstanding contacts between the inhabitants of the Land of Punt (the Puntites), their close relatives in ancient Egypt, and their trading partners in Southern Arabia and the Hellenic region. Finally, there is the Islamic cultural layer, which today is the dominant one in mainstream Somali culture.

I'll go into more detail some other time on these three different cultural layers, but here is a summary of the key Puntite culture:
"A few Arabic words are found in their vocabulary. Nevertheless, the characteristics of the Somalis belong to a different age than the Arabs, being more like the Egvptians, the Greek, or the Roman. The Somali language, in general, also, is more closely allied to several East Indian dialects. There are, in fact, many reasons for the belief that the Somalis belong rather to the Aryan than to the Semitic race. In their appearance many resemble the people of the Gallas and Swahili tribes, but others have the features of East Indians or Europeans with glossy hair. For this reason the Somali is frequently called " a black European." Some of these people have almond-shaped eyes like the Chinese. Almost all have thicker lips than those of the Caucasian race, and they hold their mouths half-open, disclosing large white teeth. In stature, the men are above the middle height and are physically well- formed ; many of them would make fine models for the sculptor. They have a scant beard like the Abyssin- ians. These people are a fine, strong race, says an English writer. Some of the warriors cut their hair. Others let it hang upon their shoulders. In this case it is always parted on the forehead. They sometimes bleach their hair with chalk dissolved in water. When, clad in goatskin, the Somali warriors advance upon their enemy at a rapid pace, their eyes gleaming with the spirit of war. their long locks streaming in the wind, and the sunlight gleaming upon their burnished lances and shields, they present a truly formidable and awe-inspiring appearance."
The ancestral Puntite culture is quite apparent when you consider things like the strong poetic/bard tradition, the customary law (similar to the Socrates/Plato/Aristotle philosopher tradition), and the attire historically worn by the Afro-Asiatic populations in Northeast Africa.

The scansion used in traditional Somali poetry is similar to that used in ancient Greece, consistent with the Puntites' longstanding ties with the Hellenic region.
"In addition to the formal constraint of alliteration, Somali poetry has a system of quantitative scansion reminiscent of that used in ancient Greek."
Similarly, the traditional male attire is basically a modified Puntite/ancient Egyptian kilt, with a Greek/Roman toga slung over the shoulder, and an ancient Khaleeji dagger tucked into the waist:

Somali:
Image

Beja:
Image

Khaleeji:
Image

Many ancient Greek/Roman ceramics, coins and other artifacts have also been found in the Somali territories and elsewhere in Northeast Africa. These often date from the first few centuries of the Common Era, as described in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, Ptolemy's Geografia and other early treatises. This was the period when the Barbaroi and the Azanians (two early Cushitic groups in the Horn) as well as the Aksumites traded with other contemporaneous kingdoms.
Man i have learn alot from you, you have a nack for finding info & sources. :clap: Keep up the good work Saaxiib :up:

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:16 am
by NobleGeeljire
PharaohLiban wrote:F both Arabs and Black Africans, we were related to ancient Egyptians and the Berbers but most of them are all assimilated (especially in Egypt).
None of them are our related groups, I dont see why some Somalis beg negroes, especially in US and UK or beg Arabs in Somalia and nearby countries. We have nothing to do with none of them. And you cannot compare African Americans who ahve been raped for centuries to look more like us because of white genes in them compared to black Africans from Kenya, Tanzania, Congo deep in the heart of negro land. And how is it even possible to connect us to modern Arabs.
If we dont stop this bullshit we will end up like Yemen and Egypt who had populations like ours but now look like half caste dirty people, or we will end up assimilated with Bantu negroids and be looking like a goddamn hairless gorilla.
Somalia needs to stfu and get its act together, because only Eritrea, Somalia and Ethiopia that are Cushitic left. And by Cushitic I am not talking language family but just using it as a racial enclave because most of our peoples speak these languages.
Go back and learn about our ancestors, they were smart apart from the clan system.
Rageedi :up: clan is not our problem it is interconnected with the somali identity and has kept us from mixing with other groups even our neighboring horners.

Clan like religion,ideologies, politics are used a tool, nothing inherently wrong with it except how its wrongly used by the users. All we need is to preach coexistence rather than to go against everything that embodies us being somali.

except for that i very much i agree with you.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:03 pm
by Xildiiid
Bilis,

I'm still waiting for that answer..

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:21 pm
by jalaaludin5
Interesting reading....Itrah & Bilis Vs Z

What makes it even more interesting is the qabyaaladized (yes its a word lol) - ["scientific"]- undertone of the discussion.

Itrah and Bilis on one corner (D block corner) and.....lool

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Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:32 pm
by jalaaludin5
Xildiiid wrote:Bilis,

I'm still waiting for that answer..
I think he means Isaq.

Have you been following this back and forth discussion that was meant to shed some light on how we are related (according to genetic testing )? Can you detect the subtle but undeniable qabyaalad in the interpretation of those test?

Using science for clannish agenda.

How naive of me to think all streams stream towards the ocean. :snoop: :lol:
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Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:48 pm
by Niya
Jalaaludin, indeed, that has been crystal clear from day one. However, nothing new here. People have been misusing genetics for their on agendas. Intellectual dishonesty and misuse of scientific knowledge is nothing new. Some maryooley here are just extrapolating while lying to self.

Check this article:

http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... _data.html

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:25 am
by jalaaludin5
Niya wrote:Jalaaludin, indeed, that has been crystal clear from day one. However, nothing new here. People have been misusing genetics for their on agendas. Intellectual dishonesty and misuse of scientific knowledge is nothing new. Some maryooley here are just extrapolating while lying to self.

Check this article:

http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... _data.html
Exactly.

There is a centuries-old history of misusing heredity, and more recently genetics, to support racist beliefs
Here its to support qabyaalad.

In 2012 a member of the Hungarian parliament from the far right Jobbik Party proclaimed his ethnic purity based on the absence from his genome of variants allegedly attributable to Italian or Jewish ancestry
Nasabnimo.

I think claims of purities is been made in this thread already. Zumaale as Dir is playing the "oldest" clan cards but Itrah and Bilis Ain't gonna let him off easily. :lol:

Genetics have long played an important role in the justice system, going back to Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.’s opinion in Buck v. Bell that “three generations of imbeciles are enough.” One of the notorious abuses of genetics in criminal law was the claim in the 1960s and 1970s that men with the XYY genotype were more prone to aggression than men with the more common XY genotype. Subsequent studies demonstrated that this correlation was an artifact of the studies’ methods, but this episode opened the door to the use of genetic information in criminal cases.

Judges can also be prone to the spurious construction of genetics. In a recent case, U.S. v. Cossey, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the district court judge’s decision to impose a criminal penalty for a child pornographer that exceeded the plea agreement, based on the judge’s supposition that 50 years from now the defendant’s criminal conduct would likely be discovered to be caused by “a gene you were born with. And it’s not a gene you can get rid of.” The judge continued that therapy would not succeed because “you can’t get rid of it. You are what you’re born with. And that’s the only explanation for what I see here.”
This can be used for mooriyanimo and to explain the unruly hawiye condition...:pac:
There has been a never-ending series of alleged discoveries of genes for complex human behaviors, such as the anxiety gene, the infidelity gene, and the intelligence gene. 
The laan gaab gene. lol
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So far from all the contribution made in this topic you can easily tell who's got a chip on their shoulder and who hasn't.

Educational topic. Not just about genetic testing alone but also how Somali will always find room for qabyaalad in anything.

Insecurity wale it's a b#$@h! Especially when one is oblivious to his/her tittle...MUSLIM and the importance of the Tawheed.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:19 am
by zumaale
jalaaludin5 wrote:
Xildiiid wrote:Bilis,

I'm still waiting for that answer..
I think he means Isaq.

Have you been following this back and forth discussion that was meant to shed some light on how we are related (according to genetic testing )? Can you detect the subtle but undeniable qabyaalad in the interpretation of those test?

Using science for clannish agenda.

How naive of me to think all streams stream towards the ocean. :snoop: :lol:
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Nigga, I have always been upfront about my interest in genetics to find out how members of my clan are related genetically. That ain't a sin and no one is calling for anyone to be killed on account of their lineage.

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:08 pm
by Bilis
zumaale wrote: Nothing to do with the Hashemites crap they adopted. Other Samaales including Dir have always emphasised their non Samaale identity.

I agree many Samaales might be E-V32 but that does not take away from the fact that the historical authority figure of Samaales were Dir. Some families might have been coopted in to this identity but Samaale folklore and Dir are indivisible. Why would a non Samaale group be considered as one of the pioneers of such an identity? A more plausible theory is that Dir spearheaded the creation of such an identity amongst the Cushites they encountered in Northern Somalia and that Darood only late became part of this group.

As for Hawiye, the test results we have of them are limited and both lineages appear to be present in them. Until more of them get tested, the jury is out and we cannot hypothesise.
Your comments are sorta ironic in that there's an old school Belgian scholar who used -- or should I say, misused -- some blood group data on the Dir specifically to misrepresent Somali ethnogenesis (albeit, in an absurd Bantu/Nilotic direction). In reality, the serological frequencies for ethnic Somalis as a whole are altogether different, including the low-caste groups. I set the record straight here on my blog.

You can thank me for this later. :up:

Re: The winner of The New Hamitic Continent's Naming Contest

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:11 pm
by Bilis
Xildiiid wrote:Bilis,

I'm still waiting for that answer..
See Jalaaludin's post sxb. :lol: