SomaliNet Forums

Look I have nothing against Somalis even though in most parts I intend to exaggerate things a bit. That I know and it needs bit of entertainment to the Snet but on personal level, I have nothing against any Somali. However, the same people who held up the KDF sign cannot be claiming to be superior than other blacks. In anything the Kikuyu have owned his Darods and decide what time they sleep, visit toilet or go out.

So we can't agree with someone who is trying to open a contradictory topic designed to hate on good fellow Africans especially the Kenyans.

The Isaacs took the war to the British, Asians and the Kikuyu those years and none of the Darod saw the long term implications. They just thought Isaac wanted to be "Asians" when in reality we could have owned the Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania in the process same way today Asians are. It is no secret today long after the British are gone, the highest society in these lands are the Asians who enjoyed so many privileges and access to institutions that fast tracked their goals.

Today Asians live like kings and had we played the Asian card we would be on the same boat and Bantu policemen would not be harassing our women in eastleigh but thanks to hungry Hawiye and short-term vision Darods, Somalis are useless in Kenya today. They live in the slums and no one pays taxes to even fix street. They all swimming in the sewage of Isli.

If they paid taxes like the Asians and joined the Isaac, they would be respected Kenyans who contributed the most to that nation and thus enjoyed all the fruits as well.

That is what separates Isaac from the rest.

In conclusion, while evading taxation and holding up KDF sign (be lost), you can't claim any superior to your Kikuyu master.

Rambie wrote:

Warriors wrote:My simple comment been hurting feelings

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I can feel your anger behind my screen

Warriors wrote: @ british condoms being superior to anybody
look at them use opinion articles written by their masters to justify being superior.

Warriors wrote: I can feel your anger behind my screen

I can feel it alright.

Look at these pathetic people, fighting over what the white man said over them, " No, hebelaayo said I have the superiority complex not you!", as if we are supposed to be proud because some European describes us in his terms.

I hate nothing more than self-arrogated pride, especially when it is clouded with ignorance.

WaaliCas wrote:Look I have nothing against Somalis even though in most parts I intend to exaggerate things a bit. That I know and it needs bit of entertainment to the Snet but on personal level, I have nothing against any Somali. However, the same people who held up the KDF sign cannot be claiming to be superior than other blacks.

You contradict yourself many times. First you liken Mogadishu to Bantu Uganda (the Bantus that have overrun it might have something to do with that), then you talk about subjugation by some jareers below Jubaland, and then you write that Isaaq fought for Asian status in the colonial East Africa Protectorate (true, and quite understandably at the time). Finally, you let out a Freudian Slip, revealing what it is that's really bothering you (“the same people who held up the KDF sign cannot be claiming to be superior than other blacks”). If you honestly regard jareers as somehow related to Somalis (and thus supposedly to yourself and your own family), then clearly all that talk about Asian status and Ugandishu was just an act, for you actually appear to be an undercover Afrocentrist.

TheMightyNomad wrote:Nice try you Isaaq supremacist!

Great thread walaal.

Pay no mind to that churl. Given his hating and little Freudian Slip, it's doubtful that he's even Somali let alone Isaaq.

By the way, you're right. Somalis as a whole indeed eventually succeeded in securing separate designation in that territory:



And they still are:

"Somalis dominate Nairobi retail and real estate sectors and are often accused of being condescending toward “black” Kenyans[...] 71 percent of those screened were ethnic Somalis or Ethiopians, who share similar physical characteristics, according to police documents, which have a special category for “Kenyan-Somalis.”

Bilis you are awsome i can count on you

Bilis wrote:

"Somalis dominate Nairobi retail and real estate sectors and are often accused of being condescending toward “black” Kenyans[...] 71 percent of those screened were ethnic Somalis or Ethiopians, who share similar physical characteristics, according to police documents, which have a special category for “Kenyan-Somalis.”

TheMightyNomad wrote:Bilis you are awsome i can count on you

Many Kenyans have high amounts of Cushitic ancestry.... The genetic distance between the Maasai and Somalis is much smaller than the distance between Somalis and Arabs. Kikuyus and Maasais are up to 40% Cushitic. Results have been replicated by many scientific studies.

It is Western Kenyans (Luos/Luhyas - i.e. Obama's people) and Coastal Kenyans (Mijikenda) who have low to no Cushitic ancestry. But most central highland Kenyans (Kikuyus, Maasai, Samburu etc) do have it at high levels.

For example this Samburu man looks Somali:



Kikuyu politician, can pass for Ethiopian:

Itrah wrote:Many Kenyans have high amounts of Cushitic ancestry.... The genetic distance between the Maasai and Somalis is much smaller than the distance between Somalis and Arabs. Kikuyus and Maasais are up to 40% Cushitic. Results have been replicated by many scientific studies.

It is Western Kenyans (Luos/Luhyas - i.e. Obama's people) and Coastal Kenyans (Mijikenda) who have low to no Cushitic ancestry. But most central highland Kenyans (Kikuyus, Maasai, Samburu etc) do have it at high levels.

Very few Maasai, Samburu, Nandi, etc. Nilotes look like that. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do.

You are right about one thing, though: Maasai and Samburu are indeed Nilotes that simply absorbed some Cushites over the years. That is the only reason why they show greater affinity with Somalis than do other Nilotes like the Dinka and Nuer, who have less Cushitic admixture. Despite the centuries of Cushitic influence in these Nilotic groups, they are still not particularly close either physically or genetically to mainstream Somalis nor are they closer to Somalis and other HOA populations than are other Afro-Asiatic groups, including Khaleeji. This only further underlines just how alien is the Maasai, Samburu, Dinka, etc.'s ancestral Nilotic stock to the ancestral Cushitic stock of Somalis:

"In Rhesus and other systems, however, it is clear that none of the major contemporary Kenyan populations can be classified as Ethiopid, except for the Oromo and Somali. Neither Luo, nor Masai, nor Kikuyu emerge as anything but ordinary members of Nilotic and Bantu clumps."

http://www.google.com/books?id=OmZ1AAAA ... CB0Q6AEwAA

"Rightmire used sophisticated measures of genetic distance and multidimensional scaling on the problem[...] He however found that his Nilotes (Nuer, Alur, Kakwa, Luo, Masai) were distant from his northeast Africans (Sab, Somali and Galla)"

http://www.google.com/books?id=OmZ1AAAA ... CB0Q6AEwAA

Also, whatever Afro-Asiatic group ancestrally influenced the Great Lakes Nilotes, it apparently wasn't from Northeast Africa. Dobon et al. (2015) found that their Maasai individuals almost entirely lacked the Coptic/Ethio-Somali component (a West Eurasian component) that defines most Afro-Asiatic groups in Northeast Africa, including Somalis. The Maasai's Afro-Asiatic admixture was instead the older generic MENA component that the Coptic/Ethio-Somali component branched off of in antiquity. This suggests that whatever Afro-Asiatic group brought the M293 subclade of E1b1b into the Maasai area (rather than V32, which is the main E1b1b subclade carried in the Horn), they probably emigrated directly from either the non-Coptic parts of Egypt, or from Northwest Africa or the Arabian peninsula. It was more likely the latter, because M293 has apparently been found among Kuwaitis, but not as far as I'm aware in the other two regions:

TheMightyNomad wrote:Bilis you are awsome i can count on you

No sweat sxb.

Hi! I am new here but I have been visiting this site on & off for like 1 year now. I have many Somali friends,I like the topics here but can't help noticing some of you like to inter-change the word Kenyan with Kikuyu freely as if 90% of Kenyans are Kikuyus. Fellas Kikuyus are 19% of the population of Kenya, that means 81% of the Kenyans you see are non-Kikuyus, get that? Plus when talking about KDF, all Kenyans know Kikuyus have always been very under-represented in the army & police since independence here is a reference. Kenyans laugh at Kikuyus being skinny & weak, on the other hand, people from Western Kenya are like West Africans, strong & stout, good for the army/rugby team. By the way I am not a Kikuyu, infact I don't like them (they think they are superior to everyone) but I prefer Kikuyus to Western Kenyans, infact if you ask any Kikuyu they will say they hate Western Kenyans more than al shabaab. Kikuyus refer to Luos/Luhyas & Kalenjins as Hutus. When I say Western Kenyans I am not talking about Western Province only but all the tribes from Western Kenya like Luos/Luhyas/Kisii/Kalenjin. Kibaki became president only because Luos chose him. You can look this shit up on google "2002-Raila chooses Kibaki". Raila was & still is the King of the Opposition & Western Kenya, when he chooses someone its a done deal but Uhuru Kenyatta managed to beat him in 2013 because Kalenjins chose Uhuru to spite Luos for snitching them to the ICC. Uhuru also got votes from pastoralists to edge out Raila. The point I am getting at here is Kikuyus don't have the luxury to select some charming candidate that doesn't have support from Western Kenya. Western Kenyans are the majority. You have to form a coalition with atleast one of the Western Kenyan tribes to be president, in 2007 Kibaki tried ignoring Western Kenyans & got punished for that.
And whats up with this Tutsi thing? Someone like Kagame wouldn't stand out in Kenya, people would assume he is a Kikuyu or something. Tutsis can fit anywhere among highland/plains tribes that border cushitic speakers in Kenya (Samburus, Kikuyus) Anyone thats been to Kenya would know there are more Kikuyus that look like Kagame than all Tutsis, Banyamulenge, Hima whatever combined. The only reason folks are exposed to different kinds of Tutsis is because alot of tutsis, especially elite tutsis, relocated to the West after the genocide.

Bilis wrote: Very few Maasai, Samburu, Nandi, etc. Nilotes look like that. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do.

This post is actually what made me create a account here. That look is totally common among Maasais & Samburus but not Nandis, I don't know why you would mention Nandis. Nandis are Kalenjin not one of the Moran people. Common dude, some Samburus are like 80% cushitic. Maasais even discriminate against some of their own because many maasias are not real maasais but clans from other tribes that made linguistic shifts to Maasai, they even have a caste-system, you can look this stuff up. 60% of maasais look like this. This is an example of the average Maasai girl you'll see walking in Kajiado (a maasai town).
Modern urbanized maasais look like this:


This is an example of an urbanized Samburu (politician)

There is no point posting examples of Kikuyus because I will be here all day, just give this link a visit.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showth ... e-of-Kenya

Okay I need to go, just be aware there is a difference between Maasai/Samburu and other nilotes & there is an even bigger difference between Kikuyus and other Kenyan Bantus, this figure below of a study done by Iosif Lazaridis et al. 2013 doesn't come close to highlighting this big difference.


Ethnic map

Damat wrote:Hi! I am new here but I have been visiting this site on & off for like 1 year now. I have many Somali friends,I like the topics here but can't help noticing some of you like to inter-change the word Kenyan with Kikuyu freely as if 90% of Kenyans are Kikuyus. Fellas Kikuyus are 19% of the population of Kenya, that means 81% of the Kenyans you see are non-Kikuyus, get that? Plus when talking about KDF, all Kenyans know Kikuyus have always been very under-represented in the army & police since independence here is a reference. Kenyans laugh at Kikuyus being skinny & weak, on the other hand, people from Western Kenya are like West Africans, strong & stout, good for the army/rugby team. By the way I am not a Kikuyu, infact I don't like them (they think they are superior to everyone) but I prefer Kikuyus to Western Kenyans, infact if you ask any Kikuyu they will say they hate Western Kenyans more than al shabaab. Kikuyus refer to Luos/Luhyas & Kalenjins as Hutus. When I say Western Kenyans I am not talking about Western Province only but all the tribes from Western Kenya like Luos/Luhyas/Kisii/Kalenjin. Kibaki became president only because Luos chose him. You can look this shit up on google "2002-Raila chooses Kibaki". Raila was & still is the King of the Opposition & Western Kenya, when he chooses someone its a done deal but Uhuru Kenyatta managed to beat him in 2013 because Kalenjins chose Uhuru to spite Luos for snitching them to the ICC. Uhuru also got votes from pastoralists to edge out Raila. The point I am getting at here is Kikuyus don't have the luxury to select some charming candidate that doesn't have support from Western Kenya. Western Kenyans are the majority. You have to form a coalition with atleast one of the Western Kenyan tribes to be president, in 2007 Kibaki tried ignoring Western Kenyans & got punished for that.
And whats up with this Tutsi thing? Someone like Kagame wouldn't stand out in Kenya, people would assume he is a Kikuyu or something. Tutsis can fit anywhere among highland/plains tribes that border cushitic speakers in Kenya (Samburus, Kikuyus) Anyone thats been to Kenya would know there are more Kikuyus that look like Kagame than all Tutsis, Banyamulenge, Hima whatever combined. The only reason folks are exposed to different kinds of Tutsis is because alot of tutsis, especially elite tutsis, relocated to the West after the genocide.

Bilis wrote: Very few Maasai, Samburu, Nandi, etc. Nilotes look like that. Maybe 1 in 10,000 do.

This post is actually what made me create a account here. That look is totally common among Maasais & Samburus but not Nandis, I don't know why you would mention Nandis. Nandis are Kalenjin not one of the Moran people. Common dude, some Samburus are like 80% cushitic. Maasais even discriminate against some of their own because many maasias are not real maasais but clans from other tribes that made linguistic shifts to Maasai, they even have a caste-system, you can look this stuff up. 60% of maasais look like this. This is an example of the average Maasai girl you'll see walking in Kajiado (a maasai town).
Modern urbanized maasais look like this:


This is an example of an urbanized Samburu (politician)

[...]

Okay I need to go, just be aware there is a difference between Maasai/Samburu and other nilotes & there is an even bigger difference between Kikuyus and other Kenyan Bantus, this figure below of a study done by Iosif Lazaridis et al. 2013 doesn't come close to highlighting this big difference.

I've had the opportunity to visit Nairobi before, but stayed there only briefly. I don't recall seeing many Maasai individuals that looked like they may have had significant Cushitic ancestry, though admittedly several of the folks you've posted (the old man and girl in particular) certainly do seem like they may. I also agree that the Cushitic element is more salient in the Maasai than in the Tutsi.

That said, that run above was from before the discovery of the Ethio-Somali/Coptic component. It is now known that there is actually a common West Eurasian ancestral component that defines most Afro-Asiatic populations in Northeast Africa. In the Horn, it peaks among ethnic Somalis; in the Nile Valley, it peaks among Egyptian Copts:

"This Ethio-Somali IAC is found at its highest frequencies in Cushitic speaking Somali populations and at high frequencies in neighboring Cushitic and Semitic speaking Afar, Amhara, Oromo, and Tygray populations[...] Three different analyses demonstrate that the Ethio-Somali ancestry component that is found at high frequencies in many HOA populations has a non-African origin."

There has definitely been some language shifts by former Cushitic speakers in the Great Lakes area, who subsequently adopted the Nilotic or Bantu languages of adjacent populations. This is in part where the high frequency (~50%) of the E1b1b paternal haplogroup among the modern Maasai comes from. However, note that they carry the M293 subclade, which is found at high frequencies among most Southern Cushitic remnant populations. They don't carry the V32 subclade that is common in the Horn.

This, along with the Southern Cushitic loanwords in the Maasai language, suggests that it was an old Southern Cushitic group(s) as well as assimilated/language-switching individuals specifically that introduced that older generic MENA ancestral component which the Maasai as a whole today carry. If so, it would mean that the original Southern Cushites were probably defined by the same generic MENA ancestral component as non-Coptic Egyptians instead of by the Ethio-Somali/Coptic ancestral component that branched off of that generic MENA component in antiquity and which defines most other Afro-Asiatic populations in Northeast Africa.

The question is, why is M293 apparently not found today in the Nile Valley but is instead found in the Arabian Peninsula? Did it actually originate in the latter region (where the generic MENA ancestral component peaks)? Could its original carriers have been the same folks that were responsible for the Cushitic linguistic substratum in the Modern South Arabian group of Semitic? Were they Southern Cushitic speakers, specifically? Was that area then the actual Afro-Asiatic urheimat/original homeland? Testing on the ancient populations will hopefully solve this riddle.

Damat wrote:...

Nice post, Damat. I agree with you.

Please don't mind Bilis. He is a euro-centric fool who is unwilling to accept scientific data contrary to his silly beliefs.

^Fool? Silly beliefs?

Unfortunately for you, the Ethio-Somali/Coptic ancestral component is all too real. And in the Horn, it peaks among ethnic Somalis.

Damat wrote:Common dude, some Samburus are like 80% cushitic. Maasais even discriminate against some of their own because many maasias are not real maasais but clans from other tribes that made linguistic shifts to Maasai, they even have a caste-system

Damat, when/if you read this, Leys and Joyce obtained physical measurements for ethnic Somalis versus Maasai and other Nilotes and Kikuyu and other Bantus in the Great Lakes area. The Somalis were distinct from all of the Bantu and Nilotic populations, including the Cushitic-influenced groups like the Maasai. However, of the Nilotic/Bantu populations, the Maasai and Njemps were, as you argued, the closest, in accordance with that marked Cushitic influence.

Regarding the average nasal indices, Somalis were the only lepthorrine/narrow-nosed population. The Bantu and Nilotic populations with the least Cushitic influence were way on the other end of the nasal spectrum, in the platyrrhine/broad-nosed range. The Maasai were in the mesorrhine/medium-sized nasal range, consistent with their Cushitic influence:



Compare this with various global means:



If you look at the nasal breadth and nasal length averages that were used to estimate those nasal indices, you'll notice that the Maasai here too have the least broad noses among the Nilotes, yet at the same time they also possess the longest noses:




Nasal length is measured from the top of the nose (in between the eyebrows) to the little ball on the nasal tip. So the population with the longest heads on average, which in this case is the Maasai, will often also have the longest noses. This makes sense since the original Southern Cushitic speakers that the ancestral Maasai absorbed were quite tall, long-headed people:



Although they are of relatively high physical stature, the examined Maasai were not the tallest population. They were slightly shorter on average than the Somalis. This is perhaps due to intermarriage by the Maasai with a shorter Bantu population(s). Somalis in Kenya also tend to hail from among the taller Somali clans:



Now, with regard to the Kikuyu, it appears that the individuals that Leys and Joyce examined had little Cushitic influence. I believe around 25% of Kikuyus today are haplogroup E1b1b carriers, so perhaps this isn't necessarily the case for all of that population.