Pharoah's Baboons

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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Grant,

Now that I'm done trolling.

Why do you post your own assumptions as facts? You're not a scholar in History.

Secondly, 1 baboon was tested from the link you posted and that's not representative of the baboons imported from Punt nor does it point out the exact location. The only thing the study proves is that the tested mummy matched with specimens from Massawa and that the isotopic structure of Baboons from Eritrea and eastern Ethiopia is similar, nothing else.

The other links you've posted are pure nonsense.

You mentioned Blackwood but you're overlooking the fact that in the Deir al Bahri relief you can see images of Livistona carinensis that grows in Djibouti, Somaliland, Somalia (Puntland) and Yemen. Not Eritrea nor Ethiopia. Not to mention that Eritrea and Ethiopia were not known historically as exporters of Frankincense and Myrrh, even to this day.

The Puntites were most likely Proto Cushitic speaking people of the Horn of Africa, just like the Kerma Kingdom was a Proto Cushitic civilization.

Livistona Carinensis (Palm trees) in Gudmo Biyo Cas, Sanaag - Somaliland.

Image
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

It so happens I do have a degree in history.

From the drawings, I would have said it was a shorter palm. How did you identify the species?

As I pointed out in my earlier response to you, the baboon in question was from Punt. The second testing has results that include the eastern Somali littoral zone, so you can drop that line of attack.

What you seem to be missing is that the Khoisan are included in the Berber designation under E3b as M293 and other subclades. There is also a Euroasian component that came back through the Horn, with livestock and lactase tolerance, from the Levant, at about the right time.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... led-in-dna

The upper and lower Egyptian kingdoms were Semitic and derive from the northern portions of the Sahara. They have a closer connection to the Levant and the Semitic groups there. The Cushites derive from the southern Sahara and developed, still in the Nile valley, but further south, in the Sudan. Kerma was a significant kingdom by 2500 BC and the culture still had an organized center into the 4th century AD. You're missing something significant in not looking into it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma_Culture

The Oromo are today the largest group of speakers of the Cushitic languages. Their expansion came only slightly after the Samaales', and they didn't reach Harar until after the death of Ahmed Gurey. Both groups came in as immigrants from the south.

There is incense and then there is incense. The Frankincense used in Hatshepsut's time was Boswellia Papyrifera, which comes from Ethiopia.
The variety from northern Somalia is Boswellia Frereana. There is also a variety called Hojari from Oman.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... ccess=true

http://boswelliapapyrifera.com/
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Still you're not in a position to post your own assumptions as facts, secondly it was not an attack but a description of the test results.

E-M293 migrated from the Horn of Africa, most likely with southern Cushites who once inhabited the Great Lakes region and south Eastern Africa, because the Khoe people that carry this haplogroup are the only Hunter Gatherers in Africa to have domesticated dogs and cattle. Domestication was introduced to them with the wave of new migrants from the Horn.

Most scholars believe that the urheimat of Afro-Asiatic languages was in NE Africa/Horn of Africa.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of people whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food.

A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet explains the often localized origins of later Egyptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor polytheistic. Instead, each local community, comprising a clan or a group of related clans, had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observances on that deity.


Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, University of California at Los Angeles
So when the Pharohs called Punt (Horn of Africa) their ancestral home and land of Gods (where their deities came from) they weren't lying.

The Egyptians imported two types of Frankincense, the high grade frankincense (ntiyw) was exclusively brought from Punt and is actually identitied as Boswellia Frereana (Mayti). It's still used by the Coptic Church of Egypt and imported from Somaliland.

Somalis and Oromo belong to the low land Cushitic speaking group and in this group you find the Saho and Afar that inhabit central and southern Eritrea, northeastern Ethiopia and Djibouti so I don't get your point. Punt was inhabited by Proto Cushitic speaking groups just like the language spoken in the Kerma Kingdom was Proto Cushitic.

A side note, many Proto Afro-Asiatic words are still found in the Somali language which I find fascinating. Some of these words;

Qaans (Bow)
Aar (Lion), male lion in Somali
Il (eye)
Ukun (Egg)
Adeer (uncle)
Gaal (Camel), now we use Geel.
Awr (large bull or he-camel), in Somali it's he-camel.
Eddo (aunt)
Neef (Breath)
Was (Woman) :lol:, in older Somali it probably meant to copulate with a woman but now it just means intercourse.

So my fellow Somalis the next time you use some of these words remember that they're 10.000-15.000 years old, ciyaar ciyaar maaha.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

More Proto Afro-Asiatic words.

Ab (father), Ab or aabo in Somali. Ab is used in 'Abtirsi'.
Int (eye), Indho = eyes (plural) in Somali
Ul (Stick)
Uur (stomach), In Somali stomach or pregnancy.
Maan (Mind)
Wiyyil (Rhino)
Bax (go out),
Baas (rotten)
Cal (leaf), an old form in Somali, Caleen is more common.
Arak (see/understand), Arag in Somali means to see. In Ancient Egyptian it means to understand. The Cushitic Agaw say Arik and it means see or understand depending on the context.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

The Egyptian connection is well known. What you're missing now is a whole bunch of migrations and a lot of years.

The incense:

http://freeyoursenses.co.uk/various-species/4567430426

" Boswellia Frereana is the frankincense that comes from the borders of Somalia with Ethiopia. Known as Maydi, It is a large yellow sticky gum resin. Maydi is also known as the King of Frankincense in these regions. This frankincense grade is used solely for chewing gum. Arabic gum as it is known in the west, was one of the first chewing gums used and is still in use today in certain foods to give the natural gum texture. "

"Boswellia Papyifera is the species of frankincense that grows in the northern part of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sudan. It is one of the most popular grades being exported from Northern Africa and is a favourite in monasteries and temples around the world. The Boswellia Papyifera has 5 grades which all depend on the size of the resin. The largest size and first grade of this type is around 6mm in diameter and the colours consist of white brown and black. "

In classical times the Egyptians imported two classes of Frankincense. In Hatshepsut's time, antiquity, papyrifera was the principal source.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... ccess=true

"While frankincense and myrrh have been harvested from a multitude of species, certain species have predominated in history. Boswellia carteri and B. frereana are the main sources of frankincense today, while B. papyrifera was the principal source of antiquity and B. sacra was the principal species of classical times. Commiphora myrrha is the chief source of myrrh today, but C. erythraea was the principal source of ancient and classical times. Each of these oleo-gum-resins has a characteristic odor that is predominately due to a mixture of complex sesquiterpenes."

Commiphora erythraea is found in Djibouti, Abd al Kuri, Ethiopia, Sudan, Kenya, N Tanzania and Arabia. Note the Sudan and Ethiopia.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Grant I can't take you seriously when you're posting an online shopping site from the UK as a reference.

B. Frereana grows in close proximity to the coast which coincides with Ancient Egytian references. Both B. Frereana and B. Carteri have been found in Egyptian tombs and they were imported from modern day Somaliland. See the reference below.

https://books.google.se/books?id=1E13Do ... &q&f=false

It's obvious that you have an agenda but we Somalis are not denying the fact that our Cushitic brethren in Eritrea and Eastern Ethiopia were also part of Punt.

Image

Frankincense growing regions and Puntite ports of Somaliland and Somalia (Puntland), in the image above you can see their hieroglyphic, classical and modern toponyms.

Places like Seylac, Berbera, Karin, Xiis, Maydh, Bosaaso etc.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

The Afroasiatic uhrheimat may well have been in the Horn, but it is clear from its divisions that it did not remain localized there.

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling ... iatic.html

"Bomhard postulates that from Proto-Afroasiatic (henceforth PAA), Chadic was the first to break off. Omotic and Cushitic followed the example and split together, as did Egyptian, Berber, and Semitic in another group. Next, Egyptian followed by Berber split from the Semitic languages (Bomhard and Kearns 1994:24)"

On the map in this article the Semitic presence west of about Libya is due to the presence of Arabic from the Muslim conquests. The native Omotic and Cushitic groups were initially to the south, the Egyptian, Berber and basal Semitic groups to the north.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/kterms/qt/kerma.htm

The early Cushitic speakers were in the southeastern Sahara and later on the Plains around the Nile river in the Sudan. They were cattle herders and grain, bean and flax farmers, and were very likely involved in the domestication of both an African strain of cattle and the domestic donkey, which is exclusively from the wild Nubian strain. They are known to have supplied cattle to Egypt, but the archaeology of the area is still in it's infancy so we don't have a chronology.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/domesti ... cattle.htm
http://archaeology.about.com/od/domesti ... onkeys.htm

"Scholars are divided about the likelihood of a third domestication event having occurred in Africa. The earliest domesticated cattle in Africa have been found at Capeletti, Algeria, about 6500 BP, but Bos remains are found at African sites in what is now Egypt, such as Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba as long ago as 9,000 years, and they may be domesticated. Early cattle remains have also been found at Wadi el-Arab (8500-6000 BC) and El Barga (6000-5500 BC)."

http://www.enzimuseum.org/after-the-sto ... ast-africa

"The earliest livestock bones in East Africa were recovered at Dongodien, in the Koobi Fora area on the east side of Lake Turkana. Radiocarbon dating suggests an age of approximately four thousand years ago. Both bones of cattle (mostly Bos Taurus, a humpless species. Bos Indicus, or Zebu, a humped, more common today in the North was introduced starting from AD 100, from the East African coast) and goats, or caprines (goat-like), were recovered. More evidence dated to approximately thirty-five hundred to four thousand years ago was also excavated at the Ileret Stone Bowl site on the northeast side of Lake Turkana."

(link 1)

"The Southern Cushites were the second earliest inhabitants of Kenya after the indigenous Bushman hunter-gatherer groups, and the first of the Cushitic-speaking people to migrate from their homeland in the Horn of Africa about 2000 years ago. They were progressively displaced in a southerly direction and/or absorbed by incoming Nilotic and Bantu groups until they wound up in Tanzania. As a consequence of these movements, there are no longer any Southern Cushites left in Kenya.

The Eastern Cushites include the Oromo and the Somali, of which the Somali are the most recent arrivals to Kenya, having first come from Somalia only a few centuries ago."

Here is what the Oromo have to say:

(link 2)

"The land of Cush, Nubia or the ancient Ethiopia in middle and lower Nile is the home of the Cushitic speakers. It was most probably from there that they subsequently dispersed and became differentiated into separate linguistic and cultural groups. The various Cushitic nations inhabiting north-east and east Africa today are the result of this dispersion and differentiation. The Oromo form one of those groups which spread southwards, and then east and west occupying large part of the Horn of Africa. "



"
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by James Dahl »

Massawa was a new city, built around the fort of Badi founded by the Ummayad Caliphs in 714. Adulis (modern Zula) is more likely for a "Punt" port in Eritrea.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by SahanGalbeed »

The early Cushitic speakers were in the southeastern Sahara and later on the Plains around the Nile river in the Sudan. They were cattle herders and grain, bean and flax farmers, and were very likely involved in the domestication of both an African strain of cattle and the domestic donkey, which is exclusively from the wild Nubian strain. They are known to have supplied cattle to Egypt, but the archaeology of the area is still in it's infancy so we don't have a chronology.
I favor this hypothesis
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Grant,

Punt was based in modern day Horn of Africa, from present day Eritrea to Somaliland/Somalia. The Puntites were Proto Cushites that Somalis and other Cushitic speaking groups descended from.

The Puntites were also the closest relatives of the Ancient Egyptians according to the Ancient Egyptians themselves who never described Punt or Puntites as foreigners like they did when they were describing other people and territories they traded with.

Cush is synonymous with NE Africa/Horn of Africa in ancient times and Cush is also synonymous with the Blue Nile in the Bible. God or whoever wrote it says, 'it's flows through the entire land of Cush'. The land of Cush is also synonymous with the Garden of Eden if I'm not mistaken.

The Stone Bowl site in Turkana area is from the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic and it is associated with southern Cushites who inhabited this part of Kenya, Southern Somalia, Tanzania and the Great Lakes region.
Southward along this "ecological bridge" that connects East Africa with regions to the north there appear to have come, beginning perhaps about ten thousand years ago, a stream of people of Caucasoid stock whom some archeologists describe as "proto-Hamites." This movement of Caucasoid peoples from Northeast Africa has continued until modern times, its latest phase being the migration of Somali pastoralists into northern Kenya in the early years of the present century. The earliest Caucasoid immigrants settled beside the lakes in the Kenya Rift Valley. They possessed finer stone implements than any previously known in East Africa. Fishing supplied them with much of their food, and they were able, like the mesolithic Negroids of Khartoum, to live a settled life with leisure to produce other artifacts, such as pottery. Many centuries later other Caucasoid groups, arriving in East Africa about 1000 B.C., introduced domestic cattle and possibly also cereal cultivation. By the first millennium ad, these "ancient Azanians," as some historians have termed them (Azania was the name given by Greek writers to the coast of East Africa), had come to populate most of the Kenya highlands and adjoining areas in northern Tanzania. They have left many traces of their occupation: stone burial chambers, hut circles, terraced fields, even the traces of roads and irrigation works.They are recalled in the earliest tradition of the present inhabitants as a race of tall, bearded, red-skinned people. And they have their living descendants in the Iraqw of northern Tanzania, whose language has been identified as Cushitic. But it was the lot of the great majority of these Caucasoid Azanians to succumb to the pressure and to be absorbed in the mass of later waves of immigrants...

Traces of these populations can be seen genetically. The E3b haplogroup among the Tutsis is not because of a recent migrations like the Europeans told the Tutsis during colonialism but a trace of absorbed southern Cushites. The Iraqw are highly mixed and they've absorbed non Cushites even though some of them still resemble their distant cousins in the Horn genetically (E3b & T1a) but their modern culture is completely alien just like the Rendille who are more or less Nilotic in their culture.

Some Raxanweyn groups are most likely descendants of these southern Cushites.

An excavated artifact from 6th century B.C Marka in L/Shabeelle depicting an Azanian (Cushitic) maiden carrying water, posted by a SomaliNet user named Bilis who knew a lot about theses ancient Azanians.

Image

Btw, I abhor the term caucasoid because it's essentially a term coined by white Europeans so that they can claim our history, our ancestors and our connection to ancient civilizations and the prophets sent to us in the great line of divine. It's part of a Eurocentric narrative on ancient history.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

James Dahl wrote:Massawa was a new city, built around the fort of Badi founded by the Ummayad Caliphs in 714. Adulis (modern Zula) is more likely for a "Punt" port in Eritrea.
James,

As someone who has done a little archaeological digging, I know that places can look empty but still have huge stories to tell beneath the surface.
Two thousand years, just to the fort of Badi, could have buried any sign of either an Egyptian or Puntite presence at Massawa. I think of the Dome of the Rock. Some think of it just as the first Qibla. Some look at it and think of Herod's Temple. Still others look and think of the Temple of Solomon. Very few will remember the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite, which is today nearly impossible to locate and most will not even understand the reference.

Anyway, thanks. I will take a look at Adulis.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Grant is still trying to disprove our connection to the Land of Punt. :pac:
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

James,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adulis

"A pair of fragments of glass vessels were found in the lowest layers at Adulis, which are similar to specimens from the 18th Dynasty of Egypt.[3]"

Hatshepsut was in the 18th dynasty.

Hildiid,

The pages we are on, both with regard to evidence and analysis, are so far apart I simply don't know how to respond further. Please pardon me if I just do my own thing here.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

The evidence is crystal clear. Punt = Proto Cushites, together with the Ancient Egyptians referred to as eastern Hamites by some scholars.

You tried to rule out Somali connection to Punt but in vain, there's simply too much evidence disproving your bias.
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