Somaliland Recognition

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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Ben Dover »

Sharmarke91 wrote: Tue May 02, 2017 11:40 pm
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are just going through the usual talking points.

You think Somalia is rising, based on what exactly? A shiny new Turkish building?
Reality is the situation for much of Somalia has not changed much of late. Mogadishu is still ungovernable, much of the countryside is not under control of the government. And the massive elephant in the room being 22,000 foreign troops needed just to keep this weak government on life support. Wishing that within less than 3 years they will not be needed anymore is, as I said, nothing more than fan fiction. You can not wish your problems away. Al Shabab will still be there, the divisions will still be there, all the mess that is created through this federal structure will not go away. It will weaken Somalia even further when the president is competing for powers with other so called 'federal presidents'. Its a big mess.

Al Shabab would not survive a day if they did not have local support, the communities that became disillusioned with southern politics strongly support them. They are not going anywhere.

As I stated, if Somalia spirals further down this pitt, the international community will have no choice but to fast-fast track Somaliland into complete de jure status. It was indeed very close in 2006-2008 when actual discussions happened on the subject. You have no idea what you are talking about. The AU fact finding mission explicitly said Somaliland's case should be judged "from an objective historical viewpoint and a moral angle vis-à-vis the aspirations of the people", and that the AU should "find a special method for dealing with Somaliland". International crisis group recommended Somaliland to be given observer status in the AU. Behind closed doors, the recognition of Somaliland is certainly discussed. It will, in the end, come down to one of the two options outlined above, and Somaliland will win the long game no matter how much wishful thinking you spew here.

The legal case for Somaliland's reclaiming of her independence is not 'fairly relevant', its solid. By all accounts including South Africa's Department of Foreign Affairs, it can not get any clearer than "it is undeniable that Somaliland does indeed qualify for statehood, and it is incumbent on the international community to recognise it. Any efforts to deny or delay would not only put the
international community at risk of ignoring the most stable region in the Horn." The clan issue does not come into this, and if it did, it would be solved through a referendum inside the borders of Somaliland. This will most certainly return a resounding yes vote, you know this.

Isaaq make up at least 70% of the population of Somaliland (going by voter registration, the number may be even higher), Dhulbahante alone is around 10%, with Warsangeli you become 15%, the same size as Gudabursi + Ciise. But that is not important. Your largest town supports Somaliland. So you have basically Isaaq + Dir + our Dhulos vs the Dhulos holed up in Buuhoodle. You lose. Your land is no where near 30% let alone 45%, no need for exaggerations here. You will be given your fair share of the pie.

As for your wet dream of a "future Somalia government which is strong and respectable"... Well, what can I say, you continue to live in a fantasy, and you have the cheek to accuse Idoor of living in Ictiraafland.

Somalia will be neither strong or respectable any time soon. Your best case scenario, if --again, massive if-- it got its shit together, it would still be a weak fragile state. They will not be able to refuse to sit on the table and sign the dotted line. A referendum, inside the territory of Somaliland is inescapable for you. So, in essence, your best case scenario, that Somalia gets on its feet, is actually in the interests of Somaliland. Our borders are internationally recognised, like borders of any country in Africa, our case is very strong, the referendum will be fair, perhaps the mysterious qurjiile clan will not boycott the vote this time and overwhelm the Isaaq + Dir + Somalilander Harti in numbers? :)

I would actually love for the independence referendum to be conducted in Togdheer Sool and Sanaag only, or even in Sool Sanaag Cayn regions only, it would most certainly return a yes vote.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Saar »

Ben Dover wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 5:43 am
Sharmarke91 wrote: Tue May 02, 2017 11:40 pm
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are just going through the usual talking points.

You think Somalia is rising, based on what exactly? A shiny new Turkish building?
Reality is the situation for much of Somalia has not changed much of late. Mogadishu is still ungovernable, much of the countryside is not under control of the government. And the massive elephant in the room being 22,000 foreign troops needed just to keep this weak government on life support. Wishing that within less than 3 years they will not be needed anymore is, as I said, nothing more than fan fiction. You can not wish your problems away. Al Shabab will still be there, the divisions will still be there, all the mess that is created through this federal structure will not go away. It will weaken Somalia even further when the president is competing for powers with other so called 'federal presidents'. Its a big mess.

Al Shabab would not survive a day if they did not have local support, the communities that became disillusioned with southern politics strongly support them. They are not going anywhere.

As I stated, if Somalia spirals further down this pitt, the international community will have no choice but to fast-fast track Somaliland into complete de jure status. It was indeed very close in 2006-2008 when actual discussions happened on the subject. You have no idea what you are talking about. The AU fact finding mission explicitly said Somaliland's case should be judged "from an objective historical viewpoint and a moral angle vis-à-vis the aspirations of the people", and that the AU should "find a special method for dealing with Somaliland". International crisis group recommended Somaliland to be given observer status in the AU. Behind closed doors, the recognition of Somaliland is certainly discussed. It will, in the end, come down to one of the two options outlined above, and Somaliland will win the long game no matter how much wishful thinking you spew here.

The legal case for Somaliland's reclaiming of her independence is not 'fairly relevant', its solid. By all accounts including South Africa's Department of Foreign Affairs, it can not get any clearer than "it is undeniable that Somaliland does indeed qualify for statehood, and it is incumbent on the international community to recognise it. Any efforts to deny or delay would not only put the
international community at risk of ignoring the most stable region in the Horn." The clan issue does not come into this, and if it did, it would be solved through a referendum inside the borders of Somaliland. This will most certainly return a resounding yes vote, you know this.

Isaaq make up at least 70% of the population of Somaliland (going by voter registration, the number may be even higher), Dhulbahante alone is around 10%, with Warsangeli you become 15%, the same size as Gudabursi + Ciise. But that is not important. Your largest town supports Somaliland. So you have basically Isaaq + Dir + our Dhulos vs the Dhulos holed up in Buuhoodle. You lose. Your land is no where near 30% let alone 45%, no need for exaggerations here. You will be given your fair share of the pie.

As for your wet dream of a "future Somalia government which is strong and respectable"... Well, what can I say, you continue to live in a fantasy, and you have the cheek to accuse Idoor of living in Ictiraafland.

Somalia will be neither strong or respectable any time soon. Your best case scenario, if --again, massive if-- it got its shit together, it would still be a weak fragile state. They will not be able to refuse to sit on the table and sign the dotted line. A referendum, inside the territory of Somaliland is inescapable for you. So, in essence, your best case scenario, that Somalia gets on its feet, is actually in the interests of Somaliland. Our borders are internationally recognised, like borders of any country in Africa, our case is very strong, the referendum will be fair, perhaps the mysterious qurjiile clan will not boycott the vote this time and overwhelm the Isaaq + Dir + Somalilander Harti in numbers? :)

I would actually love for the independence referendum to be conducted in Togdheer Sool and Sanaag only, or even in Sool Sanaag Cayn regions only, it would most certainly return a yes vote.
Image

I detect zero lies but plenty of calacaal from the fake Somalinimo crew 3, 2, 1.....

What an effortless Karbaash to witness
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by PanSomaliNationalist »

Khalid Ali wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 4:45 am i dont know whay gains sharnarke s talking about. he said amisom will leave somalia in 3 years. do you really believe this or do you want it to happen wishful thinking. the only gains somalia has made since 2011 is one thing alshabaab doesnt hold Mogadishu physically. but its still has major cells there. somalia is broken it has no leverage over somaliland. its to weak to even have sovreignty ovee severlal mamuul goboleeds. i give u there are some development projects done by turks and others but nothing was done by you and the other walanweyns. no election in 2016. amisom is still there kenya just 2 months ago with out notifying the darod presidenr it set foot in lower juba.

somaliland case is strong army base dp world
What would you do if Somalia destroyed Somaliland and implemented the blue flag in hargeisa. Would you cry or join the winning team?
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by FBISOMALIA »

PanSomaliNationalist wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:25 am
Khalid Ali wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 4:45 am i dont know whay gains sharnarke s talking about. he said amisom will leave somalia in 3 years. do you really believe this or do you want it to happen wishful thinking. the only gains somalia has made since 2011 is one thing alshabaab doesnt hold Mogadishu physically. but its still has major cells there. somalia is broken it has no leverage over somaliland. its to weak to even have sovreignty ovee severlal mamuul goboleeds. i give u there are some development projects done by turks and others but nothing was done by you and the other walanweyns. no election in 2016. amisom is still there kenya just 2 months ago with out notifying the darod presidenr it set foot in lower juba.

somaliland case is strong army base dp world
What would you do if Somalia destroyed Somaliland and implemented the blue flag in hargeisa. Would you cry or join the winning team?
Somalia kacaan style is over , now there is somalinimo iyo wadaani hearts to heal the hate between the somalis .

Isaaq has the right to remain or join somalia as they like , the same goes all others clans in somalia .

But to enforce your idea to another somalis is history , today somalia is talks and civilized agreements between somali brothers .
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Ben Dover »

FBISOMALIA wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 1:59 pm Isaaq has the right to remain or join somalia as they like , the same goes all others clans in somalia .

But to enforce your idea to another somalis is history , today somalia is talks and civilized agreements between somali brothers .
Nope, the same does not go for all clans, in fact, the same does not go for any clan including Isaaq.

You open that pandora box and you will have villages declaring de facto independence within Somalia itself.

The only two entities that have the right to withdraw from the union are the two entities that formed it in the first place. That is Somaliland and Somalia.

No clan has any right to declare independence.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by original dervish »

Benny, you must be retired sxb......your in every thread writing reams and reams. :)
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Ben Dover »

OD, what can I say, I love my country :D
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by original dervish »

Nah man......I don't buy that.
Have you been retrenched or what? :)
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by X.Playa »

original dervish wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 3:03 pm Benny, you must be retired sxb......your in every thread writing reams and reams. :)
sheepish girly response from Miss two-lines.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by original dervish »

Very few folk on here are worth more that two lines, while others are worth two words......F*@k Off! :)
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by X.Playa »

original dervish wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 3:57 pm Very few folk on here are worth more that two lines, while others are worth two words......F*@k Off! :)
I doubt your entire clan have the intellectual wherewithal to produce anything more then two-line sentence usually of the digressive type.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Sharmarke91 »

Ben Dover wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 5:43 am
The chances of Somalia going back to the state of anarchy is slim, in my mind. Like I said there are certainly going to be setbacks but eventually we'll pull through. I reckon if not in this government, by the following government Al Shabab will be defeated, AMISOM will have left the country and Somalia will have reached a state of relative stability and development - but that's just my predication. In this outcome, the IC will leave Somali affairs to the Somali government and since Somaliland is part of Somalia it's for the Somali government what method it will utilise to reconcile with Somaliland because I doubt a Somali government will easily offer Somaliland a referendum. Ultimately, the independence of Somaliland will depend on Somalia.

But even if Somaliland has a strong legal case, who is willing to support Somaliland's quest for independence? because IGAD, Arab League, AU, UN, EU and the western want Somalia to remain as is and categorically and clearly oppose the independence of Somaliland.

In terms of territory:

the Non-Isaaq clans own approximately 45% of the territory.

Image

Looking at the table above. If you say the Harti and Isaaq clans settle in the sanaag region equally and you throw Buuhoodle for Caynaba you'd get;

Non-Isaaq: Sool (24) + Awdal (11) + Sanaag (24) = 59 KM (Sq)

Isaaq: Sanaag (24) + Togdheer (25) + Saaxil (11) + Maroodi Jex (16) = 76 KM (Sq)

59/135*100 = 43.70%

Therefore, Non-Isaaq land is 43.70% and Isaaq land is 56.30%.

In terms of Population:

The Non - Isaaq clans amount about 40% of the population, considering the results of the UNFPA population estimation.

Image

Non - Isaaq: Las Anod (156) + Taleh (73) + Hudun (38) + Badhan (238) + 1/2 of Erigavo (102) + Awdal (673) = 1,363 Million, this amounts to 38.94% of the population.

Isaaq: Waqooyi Galbeed (1, 242) + Burao (460) + Odweyne (101) + Sheikh (75) + Ainaba (59) + El Afweyn (99) + 1/2 of Erigavo (102) = 2.138 Million, this amounts to 61.06% of the population.

Note - there are many minority clans that live among the the Isaaq, which I would imagine would amount to at least 7% of the population in the Isaaq regions.

Therefore, the non-isaaq clans inhabit a huge portion to the land and they account for a significant minority of the population. So, there is no way that one clan can determine the destiny of all other clans.

If a referendum was to be held, the non-Isaaq clans + the patriotic Isaaqs will undoubtedly show up in the masses. Hence, I am confident the referendum would either be a close yes vote or a close no vote.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Ben Dover »

Sharmarke91 wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 5:01 pm
You are talking about the government defeating Al Shabab in 3 years, a government minister was shot dead today near Villa Somalia, mere hours ago. You are delusional if you believe Somalia will defeat Al Shabab in 3 years.

Even if your fan fiction scenario materialises, there is no way the IC would not force Somalia to sign the dotted line for a referendum. No chance. Other countries far stronger and more stable were forced to conduct referenda. "The IC will leave Somali affairs to the Somali government", another delusional statement. Somalia will have no choice. The reason why a referendum was not forced upon Somalia yet is the lack of competent government. You accept that Somaliland's legal case is very strong, the IC knows as much. There is really one way to settle this.

Once Somaliland gets its referendum, all of the international organisations you mentioned will have no choice but to recognise Somaliland following a resounding yes vote. The support for Somaliland's quest for re-independence is important right now as there is no effective government in Somalia to deal with. If Somalia crashes, Somaliland will continue to knock on all doors. The Arab League is opening up with the UAE military base. AU already accepts Somaliland's case to be unique, and that it would not open pandora's box in the continent, UN and EU are waiting for AU countries to take lead.

As for territory, as I said, you come nowhere near the 30% mark let alone 45%. As a Harti you live in three districts in Sool and Sanaag (LA, Taleex and Badhan) and you share Xudun and Buuhoodle. Your presence in Sanaag is minimal. Your cousins the Warsans have one district, Badhan, the smallest of the region's 3 districts. That is 4 districts and two shared districts.

But wait.

If we are looking at Somalilander clans vs Somalilandiid clans, you have all of Isaaq + Dir + our Harti vs some Harti in Buuhoodle and Badhan. What is that, 8%? 10%?

And for population, I own Ceerigaabo, we have gone over this before.

All you have are estimates, they are nowhere near accurate. But since you brought them up, I will humor you:

Isaaq:
Woqooyi Galbeed + Burco + 1/2 Buuhoodle + Odweyne + Sheikh + Ceel Afweyn + Ceerigaabo + Caynabo + 1/2 Xudun = 2.304 million or 66% (in reality Isaaq are closer to 70%).

Dir:
Awdal = 673264 = 19%

Harti:
Dhulos = Las Anod + Taleex + 1/2 Xudun = 248967 = 7%
Warsans = Badhan = 238855 = 7%
Together = 14%

In reality, it will be the votes of Somalilanders vs Somalilandiids:

Isaaq + Dir + 70% of Harti VS some Harti around Buuhoodle.

You have absolutely no chance.

I would be very interested in the results of the referendum in what you call SSC, I can guarantee you will lose there too.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Sharmarke91 »

Ben Dover wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:22 pm
:lol: :lol: You've definitely humoured me.

Well of course those figures are estimates but they give a preview and you can deduce a rough estimate for clans. These figures are also close to the clan numbers of the British so, its likely they are correct.

Firstly, we've have debated about Erigavo city lets not go there again; you believe its Isaaq and me being truthful know its equally shared between Isaaq & Harti clans. The Erigavo we're talking about now is the district of Erigavo.


I was being reasonable when I said the districts population estimate can be equally divided between the Isaaq and Harti since we don't have accurate numbers based on clans. However, in reality the Harti by population, by and far out number the Isaaq in the district, not only that the vast greater portion of the district in terms of land belongs to the Harti clans. This can easily be proofed. Also, you might not know but half of the Warsengali live in Erigavo district. Their major towns of Carmale, Xingalool, and Ceel Buuh are in the district.

As for Buuhoodle district. The district has 25 villages and the city of Buuhoodle. Out of the villages one is Isaaq ( Qorilugud) and even that one village is right on the border between Buuhoodle and Burao districts. So, it is crazy when you say the Isaaq inhabit 1/2 of Buuhoodle - are you trolling? its equal to me saying the Dhulbahante owns half of Burao since we have the village of Xadhadhan in that district.

and in Xudun district the Isaaq inhabit 3 tiny villages which are all newly built where the Dhulbahante inhabit 11 villages and the town of Xudan. So, again its crazy you say that we equally share the district. It would be like me saying that half of Caynabo district is Dhulbahante since we settle in the village of Gumeys in that district and have presences in Oog and Caynabo. It looks like your out for a fight sxb, why you so insecure about degaan?

The Harti clans in effect almost exclusively or solely occupy the districts of Las Anod, Buuhoodle, Taleh, Xudun, and Badhan, where we have the majority of population in Erigavo district.

There are no such thing as Pro-Somaliland Harti in a referendum all Harti people would vote no, so would the Dir in Awdal region. In fact its the Isaaq who have a lot of patriotic people who would also vote no especially the HY. So, again it would be a close result that could go either way.
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Re: Somaliland Recognition

Post by Lion104 »

Sharmarke91 wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 7:45 pm
Ben Dover wrote: Wed May 03, 2017 6:22 pm
:lol: :lol: You've definitely humoured me.

Well of course those figures are estimates but they give a preview and you can deduce a rough estimate for clans. These figures are also close to the clans of the British so, its likely they are correct.

Firstly, we've have debated about Erigavo city lets not go there again; you believe its Isaaq and me being truthful know its equally shared between Isaaq & Harti clans. The Erigavo we're talking about now is the district of Erigavo.


I was being reasonable when I said the districts population estimate can be equally divided between the Isaaq and Harti since we don't have accurate numbers based on clans. However, in reality the Harti by population, by and far out number the Isaaq in the district, not only that the vast greater portion of the district in terms of land belongs to the Harti clans. This can easily be proofed. Also, you might not know but half of the Warsengali live in Erigavo district. Their major towns of Carmale, Xingalool, and Ceel Buuh are in the district.

As for Buuhoodle district. The district has 25 villages and the city of Buuhoodle. Out of the villages one is Isaaq ( Qorilugud) and even that one village is right on the border between Buuhoodle and Burao districts. So, it is crazy when you say the Isaaq inhabit 1/2 of Buuhoodle - are you trolling? its equal to me saying the Dhulbahante owns half of Burao since we have the village of Xadhadhan in that district.

and in Xudun district the Isaaq inhabit 3 tiny villages which are all newly built where the Dhulbahante inhabit 11 villages and the town of Xudan. So, again its crazy you say that we equally share the district. It would be like me saying that half of Caynabo district is Dhulbahante since we settle in the village of Gumeys in that district and have presences in Oog and Caynabo. It looks like your out for a fight sxb, why you so insecure about degaan?

The Harti clans in effect almost exclusively or solely occupy the districts of Las Anod, Buuhoodle, Taleh, Xudun, and Badhan, where we have the majority of population in Erigavo district.

There are no such thing as Pro-Somaliland Harti in a referendum all Harti people would vote no, so would the Dir in Awdal region. In fact its the Isaaq who have a lot of patriotic people who would also vote no especially the HY. So, again it would be a close result that could go either way.
No point discussing with this idoor sxb.

When he claimed that 1/2 of Xudun belongs to Isaaq (when in fact their little settlement cannot even be called a tuulo), he lost all credibility.

Here is what he is referring to, BTW it's on the border between Sanaag/North West Xudun: https://i.snag.gy/P46LnV.jpg

There is less than 20 buildings there. :damn:
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