I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

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LiquidHYDROGEN
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by LiquidHYDROGEN »

James Dahl wrote:


It's nice to see you've got so much confidence in Somaliland's armed forces, hopefully it won't be necessary to test out your theory.
If it happens, I'll be on the first plane to Hargeisa to defend my home.

However, Alshabaab wouldn't be so foolish. Once they get mogadishu, they'll be content with playing around with it for a while. Or they'll be stupid enough to try to invade S/L, in which case they'll get their arses handed to them by us or the paranoid "international community" aka America in their subsequent but inevitable invasion of Somalia. :mrgreen:
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by gurey25 »

Interesting James.
Can i ask you to explain the reasoning behind your theory, that alshabab is stronger than somaliland.

Alshabaab may be stronger than somalilands army this is obvious given that the somaliland army is simply a welfare entitlement program for ex-SNM millitia . Even though newer recruits have been taken on nearly 40% of the men are ex -snm from the 88-91 war and the 91-92 civil war and the 93-96 civil wars.

very minimal training is provided, and equipment might seem impressive compared to possible opponents but they are not many
and the doctrine to use them effectively in a strategic or tactical sense has not been created.


To be brief i would say that i do not have much confidence in the somaliland army, but i have all the confidence in the people.
A free people will fight very well for their freedom.

In 1985 onwards the SNM was made up of untrained millitia from the clans and we took on the Somali National Army
and we did quite well.
You should remember that in the 1980's the Isaaq were mainly disarmed, from the first 700 men armed with Libyan donated arms in 1981 to about 3000 in 1985, till we had 20,000 men armed in 1990, it took us 9 years to arm our population and then defeat a modern army...

Contrast this with todays population, that is much bigger and still armed,
you will get 100,000 armed militia minimum against what a few thousand alshabaab at the most?
lets assume that puntland folds and the entire Somalia is a alshabaab recruitment ground.

still 100,000 millitia fighting on home ground and interior lines of supply against twice that number will still be effective.

but thats all fantasy right now as this will not happen.



A better example would be what if you transport 10,000 of somalilands 20,000 men currently getting salary to the south.
Lets say someone like the americans pay for the airlift and provides a supply line for example.

In this senario i would expect alshabaab to be victorious becuase of higher morale, knowledge of local environment and experience.

if you miraculously move all the alshabaab to somewhere like sool for example, all thier advantages are out the window.

1.Morale is equal if not greater on SL side.
2.knowledge of environmental conditions and geography is against alshabaab.
3.logistics is against alshabaab
4. manpower resources are also against alshbaab, as somaliland can throw an infinite number of men into the fight compared to alshabaab.


So james i would like to hear your explanation becuase since you are not Somali clannism has not clouded your judgment.
Thats why i am curious to know it.

(by the way im an avid wargamer, and i like gaming a Somaliland defeat , since its allot harder and more fun
i have 6 detailed senarios where somaliland is defeated militarily, given available information online for puntland,alshabaab, and local anti-somaliland clans , seperatly or unified)
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by James Dahl »

I agree that Somaliland's people do and have fought hard for their freedom and even for their interests, but this will be different than war against Puntland or the National Army. First of all there is the Burco islamist faction of old AIAI that is found throughout Somaliland, despite the Somaliland Government's attempts to stamp it out. The leader of al-Shabaab is in fact one of these men.

Somaliland and Puntland are actually much more fertile ground for al-Shabaab than the south, circumstance alone led to the south being overrun by al-Shabaab. They had tried for decades in the north, and that is where AIAI's roots are, up north.

And that's the reason why. The army is not capable of defeating al-Shabaab without massive support from the people of Somaliland, but what if opinion is split? What if, while al-Shabaab is invading Somaliland, fifth column forces pop up in Somaliland? Somaliland would be faced with an insurgency as they face an invasion.

There are still many people who believe in "One nation, one state" for the Somali people in Somaliland, and they would support al-Shabaab. The Islamists would support al-Shabaab. Al-Shabaab is probably the biggest threat to Somaliland since Siyad Barre.

I do not believe that Somaliland's army is weak, far from it, but people severely underestimate al-Shabaab.
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by gurey25 »

James Dahl wrote:I agree that Somaliland's people do and have fought hard for their freedom and even for their interests, but this will be different than war against Puntland or the National Army. First of all there is the Burco islamist faction of old AIAI that is found throughout Somaliland, despite the Somaliland Government's attempts to stamp it out. The leader of al-Shabaab is in fact one of these men.

Somaliland and Puntland are actually much more fertile ground for al-Shabaab than the south, circumstance alone led to the south being overrun by al-Shabaab. They had tried for decades in the north, and that is where AIAI's roots are, up north.

And that's the reason why. The army is not capable of defeating al-Shabaab without massive support from the people of Somaliland, but what if opinion is split? What if, while al-Shabaab is invading Somaliland, fifth column forces pop up in Somaliland? Somaliland would be faced with an insurgency as they face an invasion.

There are still many people who believe in "One nation, one state" for the Somali people in Somaliland, and they would support al-Shabaab. The Islamists would support al-Shabaab. Al-Shabaab is probably the biggest threat to Somaliland since Siyad Barre.

Thats all well and true, James but you see there is a difference between AL itihad al islaam and alshbaab
there is a difference between the Union of Islamic courts and Alshabaab.

forget Burco which is islamist central, most of somalilands population are sympathetic towards what the west calls political islam.
Most Isaaq viewed the islamic courts positivley and supported the courts, but were still on the sidelines in 2006.
They were still confident in their local political developments .

Islam trumps all political and clan consideration for any muslims, if there is a genuine Islamic movement all opposing ideologies will
be pushed aside with little resistance.

The islamic courts with their extremely decentralized nature and adoption of xeer along with sharrica were the ideal solution for Somalia.
If they had been given time to consolidate and mature they would have succeeded everywhere in somalia, but sadly they were not.
Ethiopia and the west clearly understood what it represented. Realistically a successfull ICU in Somalia could have spread to the peacefull mulsim oromo like a virus.

My parents are from the old westernized elite of somalia, and i am pretty much westernized in outlook and education
but in a successfull ICU senario i would easily don an cimaamad and join, and so would most of my clan.


Now alshabaab on the other hand is extremist and out of the fold and quite alien.
Islamist in the North even Dhulbahante will be resistant to it.

Alshabaab cannot be exported but the idea of the Islamic union of courts can.
We are all basically muslim and a genuine islamic grassroots movement trumps clan, and nation(Somaliland included).
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by James Dahl »

I agree, and the UIC was the best hope for a peaceful (or at least relatively peaceful) reunification of Somalia, and I agree that most people won't embrace al-Shabaab with open arms, but many will. Not enough to destabilize things on their own or to make a grassroots rebellion that would overthrow the Somaliland government, but certainly enough to make fighting against al-Shabaab a tricky business.
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by gurey25 »

James Dahl wrote:I agree, and the UIC was the best hope for a peaceful (or at least relatively peaceful) reunification of Somalia, and I agree that most people won't embrace al-Shabaab with open arms, but many will. Not enough to destabilize things on their own or to make a grassroots rebellion that would overthrow the Somaliland government, but certainly enough to make fighting against al-Shabaab a tricky business.
yet without a grassroots rebellion, alshabaab presents no millitary challenge..
Without grassroots support alshabaab will remain isolated cells like they are currently, always in danger of bieng ratted out by family members, fellow clansmen or nieghbours, like what is happening right now in Somaliland.

Alshabaab cells are small enough currently to be considered a police matter..

Without increased support they cannot influence the outcome of any hypothetical military conflict, which will be judge on purely millitary factors.
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by gurey25 »

Ironically the weakness of somalilands central government and internal security apparatus is going to beneficial in this case.
As they do not have the power of other more centralized countries to carry out mass arrests and routine torture, and have to tread lightly and be wary of each subclans grievances when they arrest suspected alshabab cells.
They cannot inflame passions and invite retaliation by suspects sub, subclans and relatives, who can quite easily decide present a giant "fuck you" to the police and government and attack police stations to release their relatives.

remember the somaliland government does not have a monopoly of force, and even small sub sub sub clans can take on the government if they choose to.

No inlflamed passions means no spread of pro-alshabaab feelings, and a lid is kept on the whole business.
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by LobsterUnit »

1. What are your views on the civil war in Somalia?

If it wasn't for the war, I wouldn't know how to read, write, play playstation,eat a cheesburger and use the net.I would be herding camels. I do agree that sounds a bit selfish and sick. I should shoot myself.

2. How do you think it can be solved?

When my clan is given full power and authority in Somalia. We have the biggest guns, best looking men and most muscular women.

3. If there was a government in Somalia, what kind of thing should it do for the country?

A pacifist government.
4. What are your future plans for Somalia? Will you move back to Somalia if there is peace?

No, I want to marry this girl from Azberjain and move there.
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Re: I am singaporean Help Me with a Somalia project!

Post by LobsterUnit »

Btw, mr singaporow, most SOmalis are incapable of any kind of objective political analysis due to their inherent clan bias. I am sure you can see that from this thread. :down:
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