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Voltage wrote:Forget about secular vs. Islamist (Tfg v.s Islamist), forget about Islamist in different sects (Ahlu Sunnah vs. Akhwaan), you even got fighting between Salafi Islamists (Xisbul Islam vs. Al Shabaab). Somali religious leaders are not capable of running a modern society when their only qualification is learning couple Quranic chapters in the baadiye and the reality this is all they have in experience, couple Qur'anic chapters in the baadiye. They will never unite and never be capable of leadership because they are ignorant in everything else including proper understanding of Islamic jurisprudence.

For example, you can hate the Iranian Mullahs but at least they know science, technology, the modern world, as well as their Shia ideology but Somali religious leaders are like the rest of the Somali society..ignornat about the world, ignorant in worldy matters that matter and incapable of uniting behind a single ideology because of their general illiteracy and inability to think enlightenedly seeing as they are as uneducated as the rest of their brethren.

Perfectly said. I'll give You a perfect example: Can You believe all these Guys from Xassan Turki, Mukhtaar Robow, etc. cannot even give an Arabic Interview? I mean forget knowing politics, science, the one subject they were at the very least supposed to have knowledge in they don't (Islamic knowledge). I mean it is so embarassing When these Guys are on Aljazeera known as "Sh Fulaan" and they need a translator between them and the reporter. Like I said before since Somalia is a extremely reer baadiye and badow society, getting titles like "Mudane" "Xildhibaan" "Sheikh" and even "Doctor" is very easy. None of these so called Sheikhs in Xizb Islam, Shabab etc. ever opened a book in Islamic Jurispondence and if they were put in a position tomorrow to rule Somalia according to Shari'ah Law, they wouldn't know where to start except to continue to find a way to stay in conflicts, The one thing they're "good" at.

JaMaaL-23 wrote:

Twisted_Logic wrote:

Voltage wrote:Forget about secular vs. Islamist (Tfg v.s Islamist), forget about Islamist in different sects (Ahlu Sunnah vs. Akhwaan), you even got fighting between Salafi Islamists (Xisbul Islam vs. Al Shabaab). Somali religious leaders are not capable of running a modern society when their only qualification is learning couple Quranic chapters in the baadiye and the reality this is all they have in experience, couple Qur'anic chapters in the baadiye. They will never unite and never be capable of leadership because they are ignorant in everything else including proper understanding of Islamic jurisprudence.

For example, you can hate the Iranian Mullahs but at least they know science, technology, the modern world, as well as their Shia ideology but Somali religious leaders are like the rest of the Somali society..ignornat about the world, ignorant in worldy matters that matter and incapable of uniting behind a single ideology because of their general illiteracy and inability to think enlightenedly seeing as they are as uneducated as the rest of their brethren.

you know you have slipped when Twisted idiot cheerleads for you.

lets not belittle the deen.

I don't care if Twisted cheerleads or not. We all know where he is coming from but my argument stands. If my 7 year old nephew memorizes Juz Camma is he capable of ruling the land?

There are many, many, many examples in the Hadiith where the prophet (SCW) left matters of the world to people who had greater knowledge then him. Some examples are the battle formations and even planting.

As this is the case, the Prophet arrived in Medina where he saw that the date cultivators had pruned the branches of the date trees that had male characteristics, hanging them on the branches of the female date trees which produce the fruit; they had done this to encourage fertilization. The Prophet asked them: "Why are you doing this? Is fruit not produced if you don't carry out this process?" and they misunderstand the Prophet, thinking he had said, "Do not do this, this is not right". Thus, after that year they did not carry out the insemination process when the season arrived. The following year, date productivity decreased. When they went to Prophet Muhammad and told him about the situation, he said: "I did not tell you not to do that, I did not say what you did was wrong. I told that you were putting yourselves to a lot of trouble and getting tired while performing this action; this is an occupation, and I asked you whether it was a necessary process. You must have misunderstood what I said." And then he added the following: "Antum a'lamu bi amri dunya" (You know such worldly works better than me.)

Now look at what I said about the Iranian mullahs. You can hate them or love them but they have their faith as well as sound knowledge of the world. Badow Somalis do not.

Murax wrote:Perfectly said. I'll give You a perfect example: Can You believe all these Guys from Xassan Turki, Mukhtaar Robow, etc. cannot even give an Arabic Interview? I mean forget knowing politics, science, the one subject they were at the very least supposed to have knowledge in they don't (Islamic knowledge). I mean it is so embarassing When these Guys are on Aljazeera known as "Sh Fulaan" and they need a translator between them and the reporter. Like I said before since Somalia is a extremely reer baadiye and badow society, getting titles like "Mudane" "Xildhibaan" "Sheikh" and even "Doctor" is very easy. None of these so called Sheikhs in Xizb Islam, Shabab etc. ever opened a book in Islamic Jurispondence and if they were put in a position tomorrow to rule Somalia according to Shari'ah Law, they wouldn't know where to start except to continue to find a way to stay in conflicts, The one thing they're "good" at.

If you don't even know Arabic maxaa laga sugayaa. Arabic is central to understand the core message of Islam.

Mabda'a ayaa muhiim ah sxb, the rest can be addressed easily afterwards.

its a chicken and egg scenario at the moment, you need fighters before educators, administrators, etc.

Haven't you noticed how the shabab's are dictating how and when WFP should import food aid in order to safeguard the local farmer's incomes? if this is not and educted move, I don't know what is sxb.

We need to think outside of the Western education box to truely liberate ourselves economically and politically, This can only be acheived by idoelogically independant entity.

The only downside of the shabab affair thats apparent to me is their eagerness to label themselves as Al-qiada affiliated group when in fact the reality is that they are not. I don't know what polical capital they are driving from such deals.

Forget about secular vs. Islamist (Tfg v.s Islamist), forget about Islamist in different sects (Ahlu Sunnah vs. Akhwaan), you even got fighting between Salafi Islamists (Xisbul Islam vs. Al Shabaab). Somali religious leaders are not capable of running a modern society when their only qualification is learning couple Quranic chapters in the baadiye and the reality this is all they have in experience, couple Qur'anic chapters in the baadiye. They will never unite and never be capable of leadership because they are ignorant in everything else including proper understanding of Islamic jurisprudence.

For example, you can hate the Iranian Mullahs but at least they know science, technology, the modern world, as well as their Shia ideology but Somali religious leaders are like the rest of the Somali society..ignornat about the world, ignorant in worldy matters that matter and incapable of uniting behind a single ideology because of their general illiteracy and inability to think enlightenedly seeing as they are as uneducated as the rest of their brethren.

Assalamu aleykum,

Ikhwaani isn't really a sect as people make it out to be, and I don't think shabaab follows any particular manhaj. Fore example in a Sheikh Mukhtar Roobow interview w/ al jazeera he said something like "we (somalis) are all Shaafi'i". Salafi da'wah rejects these madhaahib altogether. Certainly there are Salafis in Shabaab, but as a group, it cant be called a Salafi group and I believe they have stayed away from those labels. And Hizbul Islam isn't Salafi either. They're just a nationalist Islamic group.

That issue aside, what's all this Juz Aamma business? Does the Quran have a countryside version that only goes up to juz Aamma? Don't be ridiculous. These people aren't like us. Most of us had to go to english class and read & memorize lines of shakespeare, or listen to a kafir lecture about darwins theory, or the mythology & names of the greek pagan deities, or work for some kafir boss who we had to ask permission to go pray. These guys don't deal with that, they're 24/7 is reading Quran, attending dars on topics ranging from aqeeda, to fiqh, Seerah, Islamic history, contemporary politics etc. then they enjoin good, forbid evil, and defend their country all in the same day. Us, we go to listen to the jummah khutba and masha allah, we feel like Abubakar assadiiq. They don't have time for games like us. Thats why Sh Mukhtar Roobows son was Haafiz of Quran and ghazi at age 12 or 13.

As for sciences and technology, those are things that develop once the socio-political foundations are laid. Thats the case everywhere. The Sahaba were behind the Persians, Romans etc. but they didn't beat them by mimicking them. And not just Muslims but thats the case for any self respecting nation. China developed in those fields much later than say Britain, but they only did it when they chose the political and social formula they wanted to follow, not the one being imposed on them by colonialists. Now the brits don't dare look them in the eye. A nation like Japan on the other hand, who exchanged their dignity for material gains, has to live on its knees. When the Russians or French carry out a nuclear test, Japan is the cleaning lady. Development is good, but it certainly isnt a reason to mimmick formulas that are imposed on you ie. obedience to global status quo, secularism, democracy, again obedience etc. just so they can come to your country & build some hydro electric dams, & nuclear powerplants (if they even do that, but most likely they'll just provide military and food assistance, in return for some naval bases to look after their interests ie Djibouti, because kuffar don't want people to be independent & on their feet).

And finally, whose role is that anyway? Are the Iranian Mullahs really spearheading technological, & scientific developments in Iran. Of course not. What they overlook is their particular religious doctrine, and how it applies to governance, politics, social issues. Its the responsibility of people like you to go to your country and contribute whatever skill you can to developing your country.

Jamaal23,

You are wrong in this issue. Imam Bukhaari RH says "Baabul Ilmu qablul qowlu wal 3amal" "Knowledge comes before speech or action". Your statement "You need fighters before people with knowledge" Has no place in the Religion. Imam Bukhaai uses the daleel in Surah Muhammed Allah swt says


"19. So know (O Muhammad ) that L� il�ha ill-All�h (none has the right to be worshipped but All�h), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women. And All�h knows well your moving about, and your place of rest (in your homes)"

First know and find out what Laa Ilaaha Ilalah means (Sound Aqeedah) then do the action (seek forgiveness).

Rasuululah SAW spent 13 years in Makkah (Most of His message) doing nothing but teaching the Religion to the Sahabah. By the time they came to Madina, with sound knowledge (and strength) they routed all of Arabia. During Salah, who leads the Prayer? The person who Has the most knowledge, and none of the Sahabah disputed Abu Bakr being the Khalifah Why? Because they said He led us in Salah while the Prophet was alive, and since He Has the most knowledge of us Deen wise, then it only makes sense that He lead us in Dunya (Khalifah).

Cumar Ibn Khattab RA who was a Caalim Himself used to used to use Islamic Knowledge as His criterion for people to lead, that is Why He put the Ulema of the sahabah. The Leadership of the Muslims (Governer's, leaders, etc.) their obedience is waajib upon all the Muslims to obey them as long as He is not commanding them to do disobedience to Allah. How can a leader who is ignorant in the Religion be in a position to legaslate according to the Kitaab and Sunnah When He doesn't even have extensive knowledge in it? That doesn't make any sense.


Rewinding to Somalia's situation, these leaders of these "Islamic movements" Are not well versed in Culuum Sharci, and are in no positon to establish a Islamic State, because they do not have the Ilm to establish the Religon of Allah on Earth, because they do not have the requisite knowledge to establish it. Everything on earth "Ahl" buu leeyahay. Islam is not some cheap dicipline anybody can come and earn a title of Sheikh, infact it is the most prestigious dicipline and the real Shuyuukh understand this Religion better than Doctors know medicine. The people who have knowledge from Somalia, like Cumar Faruuq, Umul, and others have rejected the corrupted manhaj of these various groups, so it is not for laymen like us to come and chime in with very dangerous statments like "You need to fight (Spill the blood of the Muslims) before having a clue of what the heck You're doing in the first place (Islamic knowledge)". Infact Sh Umul blatantly called them Khawaarij, and even said in killing them "You get ajar". This is in accordance to the Hadith of Rasuululah SAW When in talking about the Khawaarij Rasuululah SAW said "Qaatiluuhum fa ina fee qatlihim Ajar" (Kill them for verily in their killing there is reward).

JaMaaL-23 wrote:Mabda'a ayaa muhiim ah sxb, the rest can be addressed easily afterwards.
its a chicken and egg scenario at the moment, you need fighters before educators, administrators, etc.

Haven't you noticed how the shabab's are dictating how and when WFP should import food aid in order to safeguard the local farmer's incomes? if this is not and educted move, I don't know what is sxb.

We need to think outside of the Western education box to truely liberate ourselves economically and politically, This can only be acheived by idoelogically independant entity.

The only downside of the shabab affair thats apparent to me is their eagerness to label themselves as Al-qiada affiliated group when in fact the reality is that they are not. I don't know what polical capital they are driving from such deals.

Expediency and principles rarely go hand in hand, Jamal. The problem you have here is that in order to further one principle you are willing to overlook others. Once you disregard them, it is very difficult to come back later and change things.

Al Shabab, though their end goal is noble, are happily discarding many of their principles for that goal. When the dust settles we are likely to be left with an entity that is full of hypocritical contradictions (look at Sheikh Sharif for a good example).