Ayaan Hirsi

[Garvey]

I read 80% of contents in the book and so far she hasn't done much critizism against Islam although i suspect her hate for Islam starts right after she gets into college.

To the avarage western reader she might sound as learnt scholer of the Islamic theology non the less in my view she comes no where near that.

[Cilmiile]

1baller wrote:

"If you are confident in your religion, then explain to me why is it you label a person an " infidel" if they disagree with your religious theology."

Do you even know what INFIDEL means? I suggest you stick to playing basketball and eating your watermelons and fried chicken, tyrone.

[Garvey]

^^Don't blame him, he most likely picked on cnn.

Someone needs to school him on the definition.

[Basra-]

baller is self delluding himself in believing he is 'objective and opininated'. Ok maybe he is opinionated, that is obvious i guess, but certainly not objective. Since when does an atheist speaking against religion, objective? OR worst- a closeted jew condemning Islam considered objective? And as to 'thinking out of the box'-- well --good lord-- the dude is totally missing the point of this saying.I am sure the first time he heard he was dazzled by it, and interpretted it as meaning--jump out of your atheist box.And why Baller do u keep on linking theology with Islam??Again and again i see you mentioning theology, mistaking its meaning. Obviously you are a theologian. Dont mistake that for a religion.


Theology: the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.

exactly!


Basically a scientific skeptic, which inexplicably means a theological atheist.

PS: And dont act like you are going to research and read hirsi's book-- i know for a fact you have confessed, under clandestine means of course that you have read 80% of Hirsi's 'Infidel' book. You even kindly admit she is not versed in Islam based on watching her on the Bill Maher show. Well you are not versed either, just because you specialize in the study of the devinity of religions, doesn't mean you know Islam.As a theologian,You are missing a major component of learning a religion : Faith. Simple as that, the basis of 'Faith' is simply the power to believe without scientific truth or proof. You are incapable of that, thus you will eternally become a restless pendatic.

[#1baller]

[quote="Cilmiile"]1baller wrote:

"If you are confident in your religion, then explain to me why is it you label a person an " infidel" if they disagree with your religious theology."

Do you even know what INFIDEL means? I suggest you stick to playing basketball and eating your watermelons and fried chicken, tyrone.[/quote]

And you should stick to acting like a focking idiot when people question issues within the religion you seem to support so much. You are probably another one of those clowns that try to sell the notion that Islam isn't as bad as the western world sees it.

[#1baller]

[quote="Garvey"]^^Don't blame him, he most likely picked on cnn.

Someone needs to school him on the definition. [/quote]

hahaha.......you should be on comic view

[#1baller]

[quote="Basra-"]baller is self delluding himself in believing he is 'objective and opininated'. Ok maybe he is opinionated, that is obvious i guess, but certainly not objective. Since when does an atheist speaking against religion, objective? OR worst- a closeted jew condemning Islam considered objective? And as to 'thinking out of the box'-- well --good lord-- the dude is totally missing the point of this saying.I am sure the first time he heard he was dazzled by it, and interpretted it as meaning--jump out of your atheist box.And why Baller do u keep on linking theology with Islam??Again and again i see you mentioning theology, mistaking its meaning. Obviously you are a theologian. Dont mistake that for a religion.


Theology: the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.

exactly!


Basically a scientific skeptic, which inexplicably means a theological atheist.

PS: And dont act like you are going to research and read hirsi's book-- i know for a fact you have confessed, under clandestine means of course that you have read 80% of Hirsi's 'Infidel' book. You even kindly admit she is not versed in Islam based on watching her on the Bill Maher show. Well you are not versed either, just because you specialize in the study of the devinity of religions, doesn't mean you know Islam.As a theologian,You are missing a major component of learning a religion : Faith. Simple as that, the basis of 'Faith' is simply the power to believe without scientific truth or proof. You are incapable of that, thus you will eternally become a restless pendatic. [/quote]


I've already shown you in a previous post where your logic is flawed so I'm not going to waste my time saying the same thing again. You keep believing what you wanna believe and I'll do the same. How bout that?

[michael_ital]

You are probably another one of those clowns that try to sell the notion that Islam isn't as bad as the western world sees it.

So you're insinuating it is ? Son, you REALLY need to spend time with Muslims, not hear about them from Bill O'Reilly.

[FAH1223]

[quote="#1baller"][quote="FAH1223"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]


You are right that I AM a genius. But that being said, i'll never purport to know how over 280 million people view a beautful religion.[/quote]


In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?

Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.[/quote]

I will prove Ayan wrong right here. Because Time and again, over and over and over again, I either read or hear from people that Islam calls for the murder of "infidels," or all those who are not Muslim. This perception is so pervasive, so entrenched, and I really do not know from where it comes. Yes, there are Muslims who do believe this: 19 of them crashed three planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 of my innocent American brothers and sisters. But, I don't know from where they got this idea. "It is the Qur'an, you idiot!!!" I am quite sure some of you just screamed that to your computer screen. Really? Where? I do not know of one verse which directs the believers to kill all "infidels." Yet, I am constantly reminded of the contrary, such as this verse:

"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).

Or this one:

"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).

Or this one:

"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).

Yet, perhaps the "poster child" of all the verses in the Qur'an which are cited as evidence that Islam calls for the murder of infidels is this one, the so-called "Verse of the Sword":

"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).

Case closed? Wrong. These verses have a context, and when understood in their proper context, it will become quite clear that the verses cited above are not a carte blanche for Muslims to kill all non-Muslims...

...In the Qur'an, the principle of fighting is purely self-defensive. According to all available Traditions, the earliest verses revealed with regards to fighting are these:

"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them; those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our sustainer is God!'" (22:39-40).

Along with this verse is 2:190, which says:

"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you..."

Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is to be done in self-defense. Now, anyone can commit acts of terror and aggression and say, "it's in self-defense." In fact, that is precisely what Al Qaeda is doing: they claim by killing 3,000 people in New York City and Washington, D.C., they are "defending" the Muslim nation against "Zionist and Crusader" aggression against the Muslims. What sheer rubbish.

The Qur'an clearly states, in the remainder of 2:190 it says:

"...but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."

"Committing aggression" includes killing innocent civilians in Tel Aviv, Beslan, Mogadishu, New York, Baghdad, or wherever. Furthermore, when the enemy ceases its hostility, fighting must cease:

"...but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193).

Another verse repeats this insistence that hostility must cease when the enemy stops its aggression against you:

"But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).

Thus, even if the enemy is feigning a peaceful posture, the Muslims are still commanded to cease hostility and "place their trust in God." Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is in self-defense, and aggression is not allowed. Now, Muslims have waged wars of aggression in the past, for sure, and they even called them "jihad against the infidels" in order to justify their desire for territorial expansion. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples of this was the Ummayad Dynasty, which enacted a policy of "jihad" as perpetual warfare. But, such a policy is not Islamically correct, and as the collapse of the Ummayad Dynasty showed, not sustainable.

Are there Muslims, however, who believe that non-Muslims are "worse than trash"? Are there Muslims who cite verse 9:5 and others similar to it as justification of their acts of murder and terror? Are there Muslims who think killing innocent Westerners is "self-defense" and therefore sanctioned by Islam? Yes, yes, and yes. Does that mean that what they do is Islamic? NO! NO! NO! NO! These Muslims defame Islam, defy both the letter and spirit of its law, and are an ugly aberration of the true way of the faith. Their sins - and horrific sins they are - can never be confused for the doctrines of Islam. Islam does not call for the murder of "infidels." Now, I am frequently confronted by people who tell me, "But, Ayaan so-and-so says all non-Muslims are to be killed..." or "Shaykh such-and-such says that you must hate all non-Muslims..." or "Maulana whatchamacallhim said that jihad is 'holy war' against the West..." Frankly, I could care less about what Ayaan so-and-so, or Shaykh such-and-such, or Maulana whatchamacallhim says. Their words are meaningless to me. I know what God says: I am not supposed to "kill all the infidels." It just can not be any clearer than that.[/quote]

Nice excerpt, but realistically explain something for me. Why would the qur'an a holy book by nature have words or verses discussing the justification of violence and then ask it's followers to interpret the doctrine in a different way???. Isn't that a bit confusing??[/quote]

The Pagans in Arabia wanted the Prophet dead, to hell with, and just gone forever. They plotted against him, backstabbed him, and were really trying to kill him.

Thats the reason they had to fight... cause if they didn't they would have been wiped off.

The Prophet (saw) could of easily killed and massacred all the non-Muslims in Mecca when he returned... but he didn't.


(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.) (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)

[zulaika]

[quote="#1baller"]

Why don't you go ahead and tell me. Then riddle me this....why do you people act like focking morons everytime someone addresses political and social issues within Islam.[/quote]

"you people"?? I take it that is a collective charge on us all as muslims, somalis or what have u? in that case then, why do you come around here expecting us to enlighten you with anything that counters the view you currently maintain about us?

if there was any sincerity to your enqury...then maybe we might reciprocate with like regard and address the political and social woes within our faith, however just like that pseudo Ductch love Ayan Xirsi, your interest in the subject isn't one of sincerity and because you pre-emptively regard anything we might say as meaningless jargon... why would we bother with anything other than being a fockin' moron everytime the likes of you adress political and social issues within islam?...we're just catering to your prespective.

unless of course you are hoping one of us would see beyond your arrogant views and "respectfuly" pacify your questions and concerns in a manner that would have u believe that we are not all fockin' morons.....in that case, i suggest you refrain from the use of phrases like "you people". i'd assume the likes of you are well acquainted with the disparaging effect of its use.

i hope that makes sense to you dear.

[#1baller]

[quote="zulaika"][quote="#1baller"]

Why don't you go ahead and tell me. Then riddle me this....why do you people act like focking morons everytime someone addresses political and social issues within Islam.[/quote]

"you people"?? I take it that is a collective charge on us all as muslims, somalis or what have u? in that case then, why do you come around here expecting us to enlighten you with anything that counters the view you currently maintain about us?"

zulaika,

That comment was not directed towards someone like yourself. You don't strike me as a person with an axe to grind, but there are some individuals on this board who do act focking morons anytime a topic is brought up addressing political Islam. Some here act very defensive which fuels the thought that there's something wrong within Islam itself. I think you know the individuals who I'm referring to.


"if there was any sincerity to your enqury...then maybe we might reciprocate with like regard and address the political and social woes within our faith, however just like that pseudo Ductch love Ayan Xirsi, your interest in the subject isn't one of sincerity and because you pre-emptively regard anything we might say as meaningless jargon... why would we bother with anything other than being a fockin' moron everytime the likes of you adress political and social issues within islam?...we're just catering to your prespective."

You couldn't be further from the truth. I'm very objective and not naive enough to believe everything that someone says without doing a lil bit of research, but having said that... if an individual provides me with proven facts I wouldn't discredit any relevant information either. Keep in mind, I'm a foreigner on this board asking valid questions yet people here get defensive whenever someone like myself does.


"unless of course you are hoping one of us would see beyond your arrogant views and "respectfuly" pacify your questions and concerns in a manner that would have u believe that we are not all fockin' morons.....in that case, i suggest you refrain from the use of phrases like "you people". i'd assume the likes of you are well acquainted with the disparaging effect of its use."

I've yet to be proven wrong about Somalis so far in this thread. I personally don't care either way if you guys choose Islam or not. I'm just asking valid questions that people here don't seem to have the answers for. Call it watever you will, it ain't gonna change my reaction until people here start actin' grown.

[zulaika]

"Call it watever you will, it ain't gonna change my reaction until people here start actin' grown."

baller,

u'll be old man before witnessing such a thing.

me'sa grown azz kid!!

[Hassan_Galshiredle]

she want attention which her Aabo never showed her SIMPLE AS THAT!

[#1baller]

[quote="zulaika"]"Call it watever you will, it ain't gonna change my reaction until people here start actin' grown."

baller,

u'll be old man before witnessing such a thing.

me'sa grown azz kid!![/quote]


haha.. you maybe right. I won't hold my breath.

[michael_ital]

quote 'Zu

"if there was any sincerity to your enqury...then maybe we might reciprocate with like regard and address the political and social woes within our faith, however just like that pseudo Ductch love Ayan Xirsi, your interest in the subject isn't one of sincerity and because you pre-emptively regard anything we might say as meaningless jargon... why would we bother with anything other than being a fockin' moron everytime the likes of you adress political and social issues within islam?...we're just catering to your prespective."


Wonderfully articulated. It's no different than arguing with DD, because he also argued for the sake of arguing, not out of a sincerity to be informed.